Nature Deficit Disorder (Why Your Kids Need a Garden)

Hey you guys, this is Carolyn from Homesteading Family. Did you know that every single month we send out a physical magazine to over 10,000 subscribers? Each issue is packed with seasonal recipes, fresh inspiration for your kitchen, practical homesteading tips, and traditional wisdom from seasoned homesteaders. Just like the everyday homesteading podcast, the magazine equips and empowers you to thrive on your homestead whether you're in a city apartment or a suburban neighborhood or on 40 acres. So you can subscribe today for just $9 a month at homesteadingfamily.com forward slash podcast dash magazine. Again, that's homesteadingfamily.com forward slash podcast dash magazine. If we want to fix our nation's health, make the kids grow, not make, but allow, provide the opportunity for the kids to grow their own food and they will begin to heal. Welcome to Everyday Homesteading, the show for busy families who want more self-sufficiency without burning out. I'm Josh. And I'm Carolyn from Homesteading Family. And in every episode, we share time-tested knowledge on topics from growing and preserving your food to raising livestock to herbal medicine and anything homesteading in between. Let's jump in. Today, we are joined by my good friend Luke Hammond, and we're going to be talking gardening kids, kids in the gardening and how to get your kids excited about gardening and actually some resources to help teach them how to garden alongside you. Before we bring Luke on here, we do want to say thank you to our sponsor today, and that is Azure Standard. You know, if you're planning your garden this year, one thing I really appreciate about Azure is that they make it easy to get high-quality plants delivered right to your local drop. And right now, they're offering organic plants, starts through their Ellys Eden Lime. Now these are only available in the spring, and once they sell out, they're gone until next year. So you don't really want to sleep on this if you need some high-quality starts done for you to get into the ground for your garden year. These plants are healthy. They're grown organically, and they're shipped to arrive in really, really good condition. Carol and I have done this when we've maybe come up short with some of our seed starts or had some failures in the trays. It happens. And Argo too is always Azure, and Ellys Eden plant starts there. So check them out with the link below. Of course, you get a discount, 15% off your first order of $100 or more. Just use Homesteading Family 15, and they'll get you all set up. All right, thank you, Azure Standard, for making this episode possible. And let's say hi to Luke. This is a question we hear a lot at Homesteading Family is just how do we get our kids and bald, but it got a lot of people that didn't grow up gardening themselves, didn't grow up living this agricultural lifestyle. So they're trying to learn, and they're wanting to bring their kids along. They're wanting their kids to learn, to teach their kids how to do something they're learning how to do. Yeah, I think to bring their kids' hearts along with them as well. So I know you've got a passion for this subject matter as well. So let's just talk about you for a minute though, and how you come to the gardening world and your backdrop. Man, growing up, I was not the kid in the garden. I was the kid outside. I was the kid rock climbing and canoeing and always dreaming of survival and the adventure and overplanning for vacations, just ready to defend my kingdom, whatever that was, slaying dragons or whatnot. But my mom always had a little, probably, it was just a couple railroad ties with some tomato plants and some peppers. Really it was our Pico de Gallo garden. Remembering back to it, I actually don't think we ever planted onions. It was only summer season, a couple things, but it was a salsa garden, and that was it. And so naturally, gardening, I think we were probably doing everything wrong. I don't think we ever really amended soil. We always had some salsa stuff and it always tasted better, but we weren't a gardening family. But then somehow, along my journey, I went to school and actually went to school to jump in a ministry. And so I have a degree in Bible and theology and youth ministry, and that passion pushed me to leave college in that education and naturally start a farm, because that makes a lot of sense, right? There's a story, there's a story right there, Bible, theology, which I know you're still in the faith and walking in the faith, but all of a sudden, boom, you're going to a farm. Come on, there's a moment, there's something that happens. Yeah, really what it was was right out of college, I got married. I graduated a semester early. My wife was a year older than me. Her degree was in developmental psychology, so she's understanding kids and she jumped into the social work world. And she's a year ahead of me, and so I wanted to graduate early so we could get married and just be out of school, right? And I got a job, somebody offered me a job as a customer service rep for a medical supply company. So I was just getting cussed out on the phone all day long from people who were just hurting because they couldn't breathe and were just trying to supply oxygen to them, and their insurance wasn't covering it. I was like, this desk job thing is not for me. This is terrible. I've always done landscaping and always a hard worker, I was a college athlete, and I was like, this is just not working. And I think I was at church and a guy had a little bit of ground, and we just started talking, I was like, I think there's good money in vegetables. I think I could pedal vegetables, and we could start a farm. And I was kind of thinking, Abraham in the Bible was probably a pretty wealthy guy. He had a lot of cattle and things. That translated into wealth, and I was like, maybe you can make a living at it. And so it was kind of like that joking. One week we were there, and my boss sat me down and was like, hey, we'd like to keep you on. I know you're not happy, but I have to lay off somebody. The uprups have told me I have to lay off somebody. I know you're unhappy. This other staff member doesn't have a place to go. Do you want to stay? And just kind of ask me that and let it pause and linger. And I was like, no, I'm out. Let's backdate it. And so that was on a Wednesday, backdated it two weeks. So that Friday I was done. The next Saturday I woke up and I was on a tractor having no idea what I was doing and started farming. And just it was pre-Instagram and all the people in Market Garden writing books and doing all the stuff. And I just got a tractor, started talking to a few people, and being Lou Camond, I just started digging my way and scratching my way, trying to figure out how to do this gardening thing. I think I launched with like 3,500 tomato plants on like three and a half acre garden and just grinding. It's just terrible. It's not the way to do it. A few tomato plants grow in the garden as a kid to college to, all right, now I'm going to start a business. Yeah, with no plan. It was like, okay, let's just plant tomatoes, our high dollar thing. Everyone likes tomatoes in the space. And so let's try to sell a lot of tomatoes. How'd that go? It went really well. We did pretty well with it. But then I was kind of, as we were leaning through there, we did it for a season and I think I worked like five in the morning till nine at night from March till October. And the way the relationship worked out in a partnership, it was 70, 30, he had the land, the tractor, the stuff, and I got 30%. I think I maybe made like 30 cents an hour or something like that. It was like $8,000 for like six months of labor. And it was a good startup, but it was just like, this isn't going to work. And so I actually jumped into ministry and was in Christian camping for a long time after that a number of years. And then we found out, I'll kind of guide us back in that story. My wife and I found out that we were pregnant with our first and we were living in the Christian camp bubble, which was fantastic. We loved it. We were at a camp that had like huge growth. We had 5,000 campers going up to 8,000 campers a summer by the time I left and transitioned. And we were like, we don't really want, we want to kind of a change of pace. And at the same time, my father-in-law had bought a farm in Southeast Missouri several years ago, like in the crash in 2008. And he went to his kids and was like, Hey, does anybody want this? I'm actually going to sell it. And I'll just sell it for what I bought it for at the crash. And we kind of looked at each other and I had always had that itch from farming of, I'd like to do this again. I like the, I like the life. I like living off the land and being able to grow a bunch of food. And honestly, I was fairly good at it then. It was from a conventional standpoint, but I was fairly good at it. And I was like, you know, we'd like to see it. Can we just like check out that farm? And so we, we checked it out and then, uh, crazy, low and behold, uh, you know, God's plans are greater than ours. And I got a call from a church eight miles down the road from that farm, looking for a youth pastor, totally unconnected, a totally unconnected. And I was like, Hey, I'm not a youth pastor. I'm a recreation manager at a camp, but I like the outdoors. And if I can take kids on the river and doing river trips and, uh, you know, doing all these things that I like doing, then I think it's a good fit. And sure enough it was. And, uh, so we had our kid two months on paternal leave. I flew out to Missouri, ended up saying yes to the church. My wife had complete sight on scene and in faith we moved across the country. The three of us to this new farm. Um, what an invention. Yeah. And so there that's when I, uh, was trying to prove organic wrong. And I watched the documentary. Okay. So you were, you were. Wow. I was, I was, I was a, I was a plant can't tell the difference kind of guy. And my produce looks way better than your produce. And I was kind of arrogant and actually I was probably really arrogant and outspoken about it and I just don't see it. And then I watched food, Inc. And that was my introduction to Joel Salatin and that was 2015. And I was like, that guy is a lot smarter, uh, than the average duck and the average bear. And I just went, you know, I guess that's 11 years ago now. Um, I went whole hog, deep dive and, uh, through a lot of influences, uh, have been organic practices since and I've built a bunch of farms and it's led me to be, uh, kind of a, the VP of small farms and home and garden at a soil prebiotic company and it led me to seed time and all these options. And I've started multiple farms and I've been, you know, just kind of grinding ever since in the small scale food production model because I was completely converted, you know, uh, came forward. Uh, like what converted you just, just since we're here, is that the back kind of fast transition in the story. So, uh, you're gardening, you're successful. You're using conventional methods and feeling good about it. Um, Joel comes in, but what, what, what converted you to, you know, organic? I would say probably regenerative knowing you. You're not just purely organic. I think that got a generative mindset, permaculture. Um, what was it? What, what you, you were die hard conventional. So what turned the. Yeah. I, and let me explain that, you know, a little bit. I was not pro roundup. I was pro, uh, product solutions that would fix problems. Um, I was throw, throw the right bottle at it, throw a systemic insecticide out it if, if that was needed. Um, and I think the biggest thing for my arguments in this direction. Again, store organic was in 2011, if you, if most of us remember back, most of the produce that was available was really kind of marred up pretty ugly. A lot of insect pressure, a lot of insect damage, um, that it would rot extremely quickly. It was not picked at peak performance. And that's like the health food stores. It was just not good produce. And I wanted really good produce. And, um, truthfully, I was never running farms long enough under those practices. I think to see the long lasting effects of my former decisions, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, and within the confines of market garden, you're typically adding so much, I call it grace, you're adding so much compost and, um, you know, manures and things into your soil to help the composition, um, that you have a lot of grace on the insecticide and the pesticide side of things. Um, and so I'm a fairly analytical thinker. And when Joel would in any sort of thing, say a book, I would go read the book. Um, and by read, I would mean I would buy it on audible and listen to it while I was out in the field actually doing it. Right. Um, and so I just through probably 20, 30, 40 book know how deep I went. Um, I started, I started being converted into that world. And, um, the company Agargro those guys went to the church that I was at and they were a soil prebiotic company and they started working back in the early 80s. Kind of on the, with conventional growers in this unconventional method of the biological world before it was popular. And at this time, you know, in the, in that 2015, 2016, I've built a greenhouse. I'm doing mobile chickens. I'm doing pigs. I'm doing, you know, I'm salatin gangbusters, right? And, uh, my gardens, you know, poppin and tomatoes and every, I've developed a little bit of a reputation and they were talking about some seed trials and seed coating. And I was like, Hey, like you don't have a greenhouse. I'll, I'll do some trials for you. And I started doing some seed coding trials with them. They had a, you know, Swiss made seed coding machine. This is, you know, a decade ago when seed treatments were just starting off. And I started seeing tremendous results in power from seed coatings and what that could do. And, and I was kind of like blown away. So that curiosity was just driving me in pushing me towards organic, um, more and more and more, cause these were organic products that were, uh, getting the yield difference and the growth difference. And so I was really just like, Whoa, what's going on? Uh, so that was, that was the world. And then, you know, it all cyclically comes back around and, uh, just continue every year to try to increase my knowledge on gardening and production and market farming and now, you know, anything to increase production. And that's how I got connected with seed time, you know, three years ago, and we've been able to grow seed time really well, um, over the last several years. And that's a little bit of the journey. And yeah, it is. I want to, we're going to start dovetailing family and kids here in a minute, but, um, just want to touch on this. I'm enjoying getting to know you a little bit more in ways we haven't even talked before. Um, how did, you know, becoming aware of regenerative practices tie in? To like faith and stewardship. Did that was out of, and for you as you started learning and absorbing the regenerative world, the organic world, the dot, did you see a correlation or a tie in to your faith? Absolutely. I actually think it, it grew, uh, very, very, um, deeply again through the influence of Salatan. I think around that time he released the marvelous Pignass of pigs, which was his address to, uh, the faith community of saying this matters. And, um, there's a congruency piece that has been off within our nation. And it needs to come around. And I got to see it a little deeper. Um, really, when you're, when you're peddling produce at a farmer's market or you're, you're selling your goods, um, the, the organic food movement is a very split faith audience, um, especially at farmer's markets, you have, um, very, very strong environmentalist perspective. Um, and some people who don't care that are just all about health and, but overall that organic food movement kind of pushes everything back towards health and wholeness and, uh, life and death and decay and the whole sort of system of, um, how, how, from my framework, how God created the earth and how the garden was this, um, system, um, that was very much designed. Every, every element was designed. And I, you know, we can probably split hairs over, you know, post fall, what that looked like and what we're experiencing now with, with all the issues of, you know, after, after the fall and Genesis, um, but it, it, it began to integrate the decisions that we make into our relationship with everything. So our relationship with one another is, um, having a direct cause and effect. Our relationship with the garden is having a direct cause and effect. You know, when we go out in the garden, we actually probably are feeling renewed, uh, worth, we're getting some sunshine. We're growing a little bit. We're, we're experiencing a little bit of discomfort and pain, which actually allows us to grow a little bit. You know, all, all the layers that are, uh, just woven within that context. And I think it, it grows a deeper appreciation for me in, in both levels. Um, so. Yeah, absolutely. No, I love hearing that. I think as, as Christians, I know as I entered the regenerative world and like you, I didn't know we had this in common, but it was Joel Salatin that introduced me to the term for agriculture and regenerative agriculture, just through the sock and grass farmer. Uh, and, um, I was raising a few cattle, but it, yeah, it was, we were also growing in our faith and really just trying to hand over everything to the Lord. Yeah. You know, in stewardship. Yeah. And so as we, as I was the same absorbing, just diving into this way of thinking and even wrestling with, you know, some of the tenants of permaculture and whatnot and my faith, it just became obvious to me that like as Christians, as believers and a God that designed everything intentionally and then stewards of that design and creation, like, um, I just were responsible to travel that path to find that out and to go down this road of organic regenerative agriculture. It's what's resonant, I guess, in my mind with. Right. And additionally, from a faith perspective, the majority of the parables in the New Testament are agrarian. They're almost all relate, they're almost all related to, uh, some sort of livestock or animal production, uh, sorry, livestock or plant production. Um, and when you experience growing a tomato vine, you know, or a grapevine and you prune something, you, you begin to understand these biblical principles in a way that you may not have been able to in this 21st century disconnected from a food system society. Um, and likewise, uh, you know, talking about, um, eating meat. And I know there's probably a lot of listeners that are, uh, doing different diets, like vegetarian or vegan or whatnot, but, um, biblically, when you look at, uh, the sacrificial system all through the Old Testament leading towards Christ, and you know, our food system has a separation that they did not have right now because we have boneless, skinless, bloodless, chicken breast in the store. That that's not an animal to the majority of human beings. It's a food source. It's chicken. Um, it's just, it's just an item wrapped in cellophane. Uh, whereas they, you know, if you order chicken in a third world country still, like they might pull it off of the cage and hand it to you. Like it's a different, it's a different connection. And I think that connection, um, lends itself to deeper meaning and understanding when you experience it hands-on. Right. Absolutely. Well, let's, let's pivot into kids because we are, we are getting somewhere here that discussion, but I, I, you want to get us to the, the heart of the matter. And so, uh, and our kids, kids into the story, uh, your dad, somewhere on that journey, the intersection of having children and, uh, farming. I don't know if you already had kids when you, um, switch from a conventional to an organic method. And if, if they came into play, but how, how, uh, how do your kids intersect for you in the gardening? You didn't grow up gardening, but now your kids are. Growing up with a dad gardening. Yeah. And I think we're, we're highly immersed in gardening and have for our kids. And so it's really hard to see. It's difficult to see the difference between not gardening and then having gardening, cause since we've had kids, we've always gardened cause it was in that move that we went to a homestead. And then from that homestead, you know, we shifted and I'm literally tearing down buildings that are beautiful chicken coops and people are going, what are you doing? And I'm like, it's not portable. We have to have portable coops and, you know, all of that sort of thing. And so, um, our kids, you, my son was, you know, a baby when we moved and then we started having more, um, I think, uh, when our, our second child, my daughter was born, um, my wife was mourning cause she was born in May, like May 4th and we had all these tomato plants planted. And then she went into labor and all these cups kind of like died and, you know, and she was like mourning the plants. I'm like, it's fine. It's fine. We have a baby, like her health is most important. Um, and that was because she was a NICU baby. And so we had 10 days in the NICU right through May. So May 4th, all the way through the end of May, where we're focusing on her and the garden is not, not in pink. Yeah. And, uh, so she grew up in the garden. Um, and at that point, um, my son grew up in the garden. Um, and then I don't need to tell all my story, but then my wife was 34 weeks pregnant when we decided to move from Missouri back to Arizona again. And so we left this farm that we totally loved, um, to really prove Joel Salatin, correct that you can farm with no land, with no money, with nothing. And so we actually moved eventually into a fifth wheel on lease land with a handshake agreement, starting a farm, like with, you know, three baby kids all in a camper, you know, you like a challenge. Uh, yeah, I think so. Um, my saint of a wife likes a challenge as well in following me. So, um, all of our kids have kind of been raised in this farm thing, multiple different farms all over. And, um, I think it's really influenced the way that they have grown up. Um, and because, um, my son, who's the oldest, um, was as soon as he was born, moved to Missouri, he's a Missouri kid. I mean, he loves the green grass. He loves the ponds. He loves the fishing. Um, he, uh, even as a little, little kid always had high, high anxiety, just kind of in his personality built into him and throwing rocks in the pond, you know, over and over and over again, just that repetitive interaction with nature. Kind of helped calm him and who he is. And so while my wife is sitting there, like zoned out, going, is my life going anywhere, watching my child just throw rocks in the pond. I have a master's degree in all this stuff. I know this is developmentally helping, but is it really now? I just need adult conversation. Um, like she needs the challenge, but we, we know that I was like formative in his years of throwing rocks in the pond and going to the garden and taking care of plants and watering plants and picking tomatoes and doing all the things, right? Um, do you see something in your kids with the experience you're giving them in the garden and in this life? Do you see development or do you see things in them that you didn't, you don't see in yourself looking back, or that maybe you see in other kids? Like what, what, what's the value that you're seeing? Maybe you're that other kids are messing that don't get that experience. You know, that's, that's a really good question. I'm not exactly sure in re, in relationship to me. Um, I think my kids are a lot more entrepreneurial than I was as a kid. Um, you know, I think like last year, my 11 year old, he's like, dad, let's go harvest some prickly pear because we were back farming in Arizona again. Yeah. Longer story. Um, let's harvest some prickly pear. Let's go to, you know, these people's houses and, and this BLM land and let's harvest some prickly pear. I'd like to sell some prickly pear lemonade. And he's, you know, hustling on a weekend at my farm store, making 240 bucks, selling prickly pear as an 11 year old. And I'm like, man, like, and I was never that I, I wasn't really thinking about money. I, again, I was probably like whittling spears and trying to be aboriginal. And you know, that was kind of my goal. Like I'm the woodsman. Um, so I think they have that entrepreneurial spirit. Um, their creativity is different than mine was. Um, they're, they're homeschooled. I was not, I was a public school kid. Um, and so I was kind of always onto the next thing and I didn't have a large sibling group, but I just had one sister. So there's so many different factors that are at play. Uh, that I'm a little unsure about, but the one comma denominators, we were all, uh, the way they're being raised is they're outside a lot. Um, you know, whether by force or by design, they're, they're just outside a lot. And I was too, um, you know, growing up as a, you know, through the early 90s, I was always out in the desert and all over the place. So, yeah. Yeah. You see a benefit or you see some things developing in your kids that, that because that, you know, specifically you think of that, that, uh, engagement and that environment, that type of outdoor activity, just in their understanding of the world. You know, I, I do, um, there's something I didn't really have, um, with the way that my mind is wired. Um, which is CS Lewis talks about this of the four loves of, you know, we, most of us know like Eros, which is like the romantic kind of love Agape, which is like the unconditional love, Filet-O, we're even familiar, like the brotherly love, a fourth love, the Storgi love, kind of the, the love of the familiar and the love of, uh, it's kind of like the love of your old pair of slippers or the, the blue jeans that fit just right. You know, it's the family just feels right. Um, I think they have that with the garden. Um, they have that connection with the seasons so much more than I ever had. Number one, because I grew up in Arizona, um, and Missouri has seasons. So every time we're in Arizona, they're kind of like, I wish we had a more of a winter, um, I wish we had more of a feeling of spring or a feeling of fall. Um, but I think they have that deeper connection to the seasons and, uh, seasonal eating and foods that are associated with that. And kind of that it will come back around all in due time, a little bit of like a patience development, um, the way of delay of gratification, I think is there a whole lot more than me. Um, because that wasn't a part of my life cycle, it would all be bent around sports. Right. It was like, uh, soccer season again, or it's this again, and I don't think it's as deep of a connection. Yeah. And I think it's a connection to the real world so much of what's around us is, you know, we could have a philosophical argument about what's real or not real. But, you know, in this, you're talking about things that are real and lasting so much in our world is media and is digital. And, and, and, you know, kids are growing up expecting things at their fingertips, whether it's not like, nah, you don't have to know anything. You, you've got a device that knows everything. You just ask it, right? You know, um, you can purchase things and get them on the way to your house right away. And that is, that's actually not reality. I understand it's our reality today, but it is not. You just have to stare at the catalog and be so excited at that thing that we might be able to order and mail in for and then wait several weeks for it to show up. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's so much value in the kids, you know, in being engaged with just some fundamental realities of the human experience because it still governs the cycles of the earth, of life, of seasons still govern us. We're a lot more detached from it, but it still governs us. And it's so, so valuable, I think, to see the kids engage in understanding what a seed does, understanding how animals reproduce, watching growth. Like you said, being, being, learning the patience of sowing a seed to keeping that harvest, you know, and actual weight and sometimes working out in the heat or in the rain, there's so much less life that builds character, I think, that is getting missed more and more. Well, I think so too. And one of the things that, you know, you asked the difference between like my children and myself, one of the things I was noticing even growing up, because, you know, I was born in 88. And so I'm in that generation where I didn't have a cell phone until I was a senior in high school, right? It, and I was basically leaving the door. So I didn't have a cell phone. And I got a laugh. I'm sorry. You're laughing. You were in high school and I'm like, yeah, I didn't have one till I was on 30. Right. Right. And, and so there's that, that like gap, but I'm, I'm one of the last quote, young generations where I'm in the millennial world where people think technology comes easy for, for like me and the generations below me. Um, but I didn't grow up with the technology that we have. But, um, even still, I saw the kids starting to jump into, you know, the addictive video game cycles of whatever computer game or video game it was. And I've watched that steadily increase and increase. And now it's changed in its social media and it's all this other stuff. And, and again, you know, I've been in Christian camping for a lot of years where basically we're pulling city kids out and putting them in a camp experience, um, out in the woods and interacting with nature and doing high ropes courses and, uh, rafting and mountain biking and all the stuff. And, and you watch these kids come alive. Uh, maybe some of them for the first time. Yeah. And, you know, as a youth pastor, you see that, and I got to see that through all the ages from, um, from, you know, young kids in the church to older kids. And so I've just kind of always been astutely watching, uh, generational things. And because I've traveled around the country, like I, uh, the Midwest in many ways, in a very good way is, uh, lagging behind the West coast culture in, in very good ways. Um, and maybe it's not good ways that they're lagging behind. You know, there's always a push and a pull. Um, but seeing the differences of kids across, uh, different towns and, and city life and people groups and what kids enjoy and, and the challenges they face getting to see that firsthand. And then my wife was a, you know, a child protective services investigator for, uh, a large number of years through my camping season, she was a CPS investigator. And so she would pull kids out of horrendous situations. And, uh, basically all of her scheduling would just be taking them out to the park or on a trail and having these interactions over, uh, nature and just watching nature kind of just calm these kids environment. Um, and so seeing that has had a great play, like in my life, um, I think back to you through the, my college, uh, years in the training, I was introduced to a book, uh, by Richard Lou, if I don't know if you've read this, um, it's called the last child in the woods. Oh, you've actually told me about this before. Yeah. And it's, it's escaping, um, nature deficit disorder. Right. Where kids are getting more and more disconnected from nature and they're not given the opportunity for free play. And he, and he pulls in all these little things that as a society, we've done to protect our children, um, from HOA's tearing down tree houses and, uh, all these, you know, forts not being allowed and all these opportunities where kids, uh, expressions of creativity and design through free play have now been, uh, systematized in, you know, they talk about it in school a lot. Everyone's in rows and with paper and, you know, all that kind of thing. That's a whole homes. Yeah. Yeah. All the stuff, right? Um, and then you look at this book and it was talking about how bad the issue was it's written in 2005. And, and you're like, and he, and he's talking about electrical outlets and video games and computers and all this stuff that was like cresting and these big issues and you're like, Oh no, portable devices aren't even part of that picture yet. And it's so much worse today. And, and he just pegged it and put the nail on the head. And so that's always had a huge impact on me of how can we figure out a way to really save the next generation, um, from what we've done to ourselves as capitalist, entrepreneurial, uh, you know, people pushing for the good thing that could be redeemed. Um, that is technology, computers, personal devices, all the stuff, right? Um, but it's, it's a whole host of other issues. So anyway, Well, and what a wonderful place to be grounded because we're not, you know, we're not here to make a fight about the technology and let's get rid of technology or let's avoid it. Uh, there, there's a good use of a lot of technology. Yeah. Here we are zooming, you know, states away, fast internet and yeah, we could have this conversation right here. Uh, and so it's not a, it's not a tear down the technology, but we do understand that you go too far one way and we do lean reality. We do lead its perspective and children are losing perspective as that becomes their entire world and the garden. What a wonderful place. You know, to bring some balance to that, to give, uh, an experience, a, a, uh, another experience for children to grow up into and see some stability and see some longterm perspective and, and build some of these other values we were talking about. And you know, you're, you're now moving in a direction to help, uh, kids do that. You've been working in the gardening world for a long time. Yeah. Uh, you and your wife are now starting something, uh, dirt academy kids. If you guys watching, haven't gotten a hint listening to know you can't see it. So, uh, it's hot there, dirt academy kids. So you guys are now starting to bridge that gap and, and, you know, and it's, it's a real thing, um, with parents and people that are understanding these things inherently that we're talking about. I'm sure a lot of our listeners were resonating. This isn't necessarily new and they know the value of getting their kids there, but it's a challenge when you're learning yourself, you're trying to grow your own food, you're trying to learn to master gardening, whatever your motivations are, whether it's health, food security, you know, work, all these things. Um, it can be hard to integrate kids into that, to teach them at the same time, your triangle and, and, um, you guys, I think are, um, approaching, you know, creating some resources that are going to fill that gap a little bit. So, uh, before we tell people about dirt academy kids, um, what's, what's brought you from where we've gotten to here to bringing forth this idea of a gardening academy, bringing, helping kids learn about gardening. Like, like, why'd you pick this up? Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question. I think, I think there's multiple layers to that question. Like everything in my life as I'm, if you haven't picked up, I'm fairly methodical in the way that, you know, my brain works and things and stuids and ruminates on. Um, but one of the reasons, uh, I think that is so important is there's a gap there. I don't think that, um, there's educational resources for teaching kids. There's a ton of educational resources out there, masterclasses from amazing gardeners all over, but they don't, they're not designed in, in created with the child in mind. Um, there isn't repetition to, uh, to teach both the philosophical reasons behind gardening and the practical how to's. There's not the, the tools to spark imagination. Um, and in the flip side, when we do gardening curriculums in the schools, I've noticed a lot, um, where the scholastic side is lacking. Um, so they may go out to the garden. They may plant a few seeds. They have a little lecture, but it's not reaffirmed through the pen, through the interaction with some paper to actually create a memory database of how to do certain tasks and things. Um, and so I think there's a blend from both the scholastic side, then going outside and then coming back in and, and that reaffirming and building on that repetition so that memory is created. Um, and so that's something that we've tried to be really intentional with. Um, in that, and well, I guess we'll, you know, talk a little bit more that way. So there's, there's a big need, um, that, that I've noticed. And I think I've noticed a need of trends where people are coming back to it. Um, I've had the opportunity to, to be running the, how I grow this podcast. And I've, I've noticed a few different similarities. Um, people that are in the space that are deeply passionate about gardening have these memories that were seeded when they were a kid. Um, maybe they, it was completely wrong. Maybe it was like my little salsa garden that my mom did and carved out that little tiny space in the little suburban backyard. Um, maybe it was like Jill Reagan, a mutual friend of ours that remembers with her grandpa, going out with, I think she, she got Pappy or something. Uh, me and tilling up the garden bed. And that, that memory is forged in her to where now she is actually this, this deep gardener, um, teaching, uh, you know, thousands and thousands of people to, uh, Joe Lample with Joe Gardner TV, um, who has, as an eight year old accidentally cut one of the sticks in his dad's manicured landscape and was trying to bury the evidence. And then it came back a couple of weeks later and that evidence grew. He had accidentally propagated it and his mind just like opened up and was like, what just happened? And then he wrote his bike down, right, to the, the nursery and spent $8 on plants as an eight year old. Um, and that started this gardening passion. And so I'm seeing these trends of all these kids that had an experience, um, to, uh, Brian Mossenbacher, who's a gardening consultant now who went in the Montessori school system and was able to, to be a part of the Montessori, Montessori High School Horticultural Program, which sparked this growing passion in him. Um, you know, and, and everybody that is in it now somehow has this connection or the seed that was planted at childhood. Yep. Um, almost all of them. Um, there, there are a few that had, hey, I had no interaction, no nothing, no curiosity, but I see a problem with the food system or I see a problem with my health or like, there's those stories for sure. But there's something about this childhood seed that is planted that I think has a long lasting ripple effect. And so that's a deep like motivation for me. Um, so to give, I, I, I, if I'm understanding you right, part of this is, is, I mean, there's education element here and I want to get into that a little bit, but part of this is to give kids that experience. Is that, am I understanding you right? I think that experience, um, that intentionality, you know, that relationship building, there is very few things that can build, um, intentional relationship between an adult mentor and a kid than a garden. Um, I think that's huge. I think I've never met a kid that doesn't want to taste and suddenly likes the taste of the vegetables that they grow themselves. But they, they, they tell you what, this kid's now when, you know, they grow a garden tomato and then you run from the store and then hands down. And, and, and they love it. And the, the food that they're tasting out of their garden, they want to try it. And most kids have, um, an aversion to vegetables. That's like known, like every kid doesn't want to eat their vegetables. They do, if they grow it, if we want to fix our nation's health, make the kids grow the, not make, but allow, provide the opportunity for the kids to grow their own food. And they will begin to heal it, you know, and mentally, you know, physically, um, it's, it's a great starting point. Well, that's just such a good point, you know, you, you get the kids hooked on that, which is what a great thing to be hooked on. Good, real food. That changed the future of the economy and a fruit production system. If our kids grow up expecting real food out of the garden, they don't garden their whole life. They're going to have an expectation of what real food should be like, what real food should taste like, where it, um, we're getting on a bit. So I want to make sure and get to, uh, just some of the nuts and bolts. So dirt academy kids, what is it like, like handably, what is it? Yeah. So dirt academy kids is a company that I started with, uh, some friend of friends of ours, Nina and Brendan Shirley out of Florida. Um, dirt academy for those of you who are in the health food, why did you call it dirt? Shouldn't you have called it the soil academy? Cause health living soil, man, we just want to get our kids out in the dirt. Like that's, let's start getting a kids out in the dirt. Um, and we could also, you know, get into the other stuff of dirt academy kids in the woods or, you know, on the water, whatever, later on down the road. But that's why we named this company dirt academy kids and our first curriculum that we've written is called in the garden. Um, and so what we have is a tangible physical hard cover book. Um, that's a textbook written at about a sixth to eighth grade level textbook, which is 30 lessons that walks you through gardening. Starting at the, the first lesson is relationships in the garden. Understanding that everything we do interacting with the garden has a relationship. You know, from stepping on an ant hill to, uh, you know, spraying a chemical, good or bad to planting a plant is a relationship. It's an interaction, uh, that is taking place within an ecosystem. And so we have kind of that framework all throughout. And then we go through different lessons of different styles of gardens across the globe from Japanese gardens to French design to English cottage gardens. Just trying to inspire kids, um, to kind of leave the charge of what this may be. Um, and then we have, it is designed for younger kids. So we have a kindergarten through second grade workbook that matches that, um, that textbook. So the parent, if they're younger, they're going to be reading the textbook and then they may, uh, be talking and interacting with their kids saying, okay, so now what are we going to do based on this lesson out in our garden? We're going to create the plan and the workbook is structured to do that. We also have a third through fifth grade workbook. So it's just kind of matching this early elementary age, um, with the, with the workbooks that reaffirm everything in the textbook. And then we have a video course, um, where it's essentially saying and teaching in a video format what's in the textbook. So we've got, you know, visual from the memory of, of the video. We've got tactile with the, the, the book and the illustrations. We've got tactile with, um, you know, the mazes and the, the crossword puzzles and all the stuff, teaching gardening. And then we've got the really tactile hands-on sensory, uh, experiences that are in the garden designed for, uh, the kids. And then basically as a parent or a grandparent or educator, you would then be designing your garden space based on what your budget can allow. Um, maybe it's a homestead level, you know, larger space and that's where the creativity is developed. And, um, maybe it's just a single container and that's what space, uh, will allow. Um, so yeah, that's the physical tangible side of in the garden. So age group, again, this is for like kindergartners. So you have, there's sounds like there's a couple different age groups from kindergartners on through to about how? Fifth grade is where it's at. I mean, the workbooks, um, we've had a lot of requests for junior high workbooks. We've had a lot of requests for even high school. We've had a lot of schools reach out and say, Hey, this is great. We need to, can we incorporate this? Um, and we're looking into that, but as of right now, it's K through fifth is the real like target group. Yeah. And there's different layers of that. You don't have to be a homeschool family to do this because it's a home curriculum. What a great thing to do with your kids in the summer, uh, to reaffirm and teach this, even if they're public school kids. How much, um, how much do the kid, do the parents need to be involved? Do they have to be involved? I think you and our folks can say we want parents to be involved. Right. Much more comfortable. Um, but, um, how much is that required? We, we have kids and so we know the challenges they're in. And so that's why we did the video curriculum. So if the parent needs a little bit of sanity to like maybe run to the restroom, poor mom, um, she can put on the eight minute video, uh, to like, after she reads the textbook, then she could plug the video in and have eight minutes, you know, to hide in her closet and take a deep breath without the kids. And so we designed it to be self-taught. Obviously a kindergartner is probably not going to be able to read the textbook because it's written a little above them. They're going to really enjoy the pictures. The illustrations are absolutely beautiful. And, and it's really well designed. So we're really proud of that. But it could be run, you know, by an older elementary kid, they could go through it on their own. The problem is going to be stopping them and not letting them go past just the lesson at a time because it's designed to be, you know, just one day a week kind of thing on the lesson in the bookside. We don't want to rush it. We want it to be spread out over 30 weeks. It's trying to complement the garden process. So, so this is looking to take as a parent, you know, gardening or thinking about gardening with their kids. This sounds like it's a journey. It's not just in education. Take knowledge in, but it is actually going to journey you through. Exactly. You said earlier, maybe think even garden design. Yep. Creation and through the gardening season is what I'm hearing. Yep, entirely. Yeah. So it's 30 lessons that are broken up to take you all the way through the process of, of growing food. There'll probably be some, we also run a consulting or like a garden group, mainly to support parents and grandparents taking their kids through this. But I'm a professional grower at this point and can answer most garden questions. And so if you hit any hurdles along the way in your garden, what's killing my, you know, this or that, I can probably diagnose that and help walk along the garden because success drives passion. Nobody wants to just plant a garden, have it completely get taken over by weeds and, and have a terrible experience. And it just fall flat. But it's designed to create that accountability scholastically to where you're actually going out and you're checking me on your garden every single week, you're making sure that things are, are taking place. You're planting successions, you're doing all, all the stuff to be successful. And that's kind of the goal and the heartbeat behind it. That is amazing. Well, Luke, you know, Carol and I are education first, Homsain family is education first, school of traditional school is all about education. I'm excited to see you stepping into this world, building a niche that we're not building and that I don't know that has filled very well at all in this meeting kids at this age with inspiring, tangible knowledge that they can both learn and put to work at the same time together and that, you know, you're also bringing kids and parents together here out into the dirt. I have a hard time not saying soil. I know, I know. You know, that's the regenerative permaculture of the staining. Right. In the garden. Yeah. Yeah, let's just get people into the dirt, kids, parents together. And, and you're bringing that to such a pivotal, pivotal point in children's life in the young age. We need this. We need what you're doing. And so I'm just super excited to be seeing you launch this and obviously everybody listening, watching. I want you guys to go check this out. If you've got kids in that age group and you are gardening, even if you're already gardening, well, this is going to be something that's going to help bring your kids along, which is something as parents we all face, even if we already know how, or even, you know, myself and Carol and I is, you know, 25 years into this lifestyle, most of our kids have been raised in it. It's still challenging at times to, to bring the kids along and keep them inspired and teach them. You know, matter of fact, that's probably the thing they learn more. They're not learning some of the things that you probably teach in the books that we wish they would learn. And so very, very exciting. How do people find Dirt Academy Kids resources? Yeah. Dirtacademykids.com is probably the primary place to get the resources and purchase the books, if, if you so choose. You can find us on our socials, but they're very small, you know, or, you know, we're just launching this thing. So there's not a lot of followers or, or people all engaged on the social media side. And, but yeah, Dirtacademykids.com is the number one place to find us. All right. We will link that for you guys down below. Put it in the show notes for the podcaster, academykids.com. And you guys, you got to go check that out. Luke, before we go, anything you want to leave folks with? You know, I think a lot of people think that maybe they're struggling because like I've got grandkids or I'm, you know, my kids are homeschooled or we don't have time for that. I think it's a curriculum that's designed to meet you where you're at. I can't think of anything more valuable and building core memories for like a grandparent. If you're, if you do garden and garden well to pick your grandkids up, if you can, if you live in the same area, you know, a couple hours a week, give mom and dad a break and spend it in the garden doing what you love with your grandkids. Those core memories are going to last in the life of the grandkids. And this is a system and a structure that's going to allow you to be able to do that with some level of sanity so that it doesn't just feel like total chaos. It's going to give you that structure and that system to guide you through. Same thing if you're a parent that loves gardening. Oftentimes our kids become a nuisance to us in that because they're doing everything wrong. They're picking the strawberries at the wrong time. They're picking that, you know, whatever the food is, you know, they're rolling in the dirt. This is hopefully going to help inspire your kid to pick some of that up and walk them alongside so they can understand it at a different level. So that would be the thing I would leave people with is it is designed to help walk alongside you wherever you're at. So, well, I'm going to follow that up with an ending that ties into that and what you were talking about earlier in, in so many of us having a childhood experience. And it was my grandmother in my life. I had a very broken youth and it was my grandmother who was just a beacon of hope and light led me to the Lord, gave me hope in life. And a piece of that that never ever left me was the little triangular garden in the backyard of this suburban lot that she did with me for several years in my elementary years. And I have very vivid memories of just hanging out with her planting seeds, carrots is what comes to mind. I remember harvesting carrots. But exactly what you're talking about right here, Luke, it just resonates so deeply with me and impacting myself and my life and those experiences and what comes with those garden experiences are the other conversations and the other things that you pass along as you're moving slow as you're in the dirt and with the seeds. And so you guys, what a call to just wherever you're at in your gardening journey, making the connection to connecting whether you're a parent or a grandparent with the kids in a way that affects them so much more than just plants even. And what a great resource to help you along the way with dirt academy kids. So, go check that out. Luke, it's been great as always to hang out. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And get to know you a little bit more. So thanks everybody for watching, listening in this week, and we'll see you next time. See you soon.