Jason Moran

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Nora Jones channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Nora Jones and today I'm playing along with Jason Moran. I'm just playing along with you. I'm just playing along with you. Hi, I'm Nora. This is Sarah. Hello, hello. Welcome to the show. Welcome to our show. Today we have the acclaimed pianist, composer and innovator at the forefront of contemporary jazz. Jason Moran. Also a fellow Texan. Fellow Texan. He is a MacArthur Genius Grant recipient and he has multiple award winning albums. He's great and I love him. I've known him a long time. He's such a great musician and another brilliant piano player played my piano. Not I didn't mean I was the other brilliant one. I meant like another guest who's a brilliant piano player played my piano. This episode has is really packed with a lot of incredible music. It's just like completely seamless between the music and the talking. I feel like there's a lot of music in this one. A lot. Yeah. And you know, you talk about your shared Texas roots. He feels like family for many reasons to me. Partly the Texas thing. And then also the Blue Note records thing because he was on where we've been on the same label. Back in the beginning, we were on the same label. So yeah, you know, had a little parallel moment, familial. I hope you enjoy the episode with Jason Moran. Alicia and I are playing in the church for this festival and mold of festivals like way up north, gorgeous. And then so they had us kind of waiting in this room, which is like the rectory or whatever. And they had this pump organ in there. And I said that thing and Alicia was like, oh, God, here we go. And when I got back to New York, I was like, I got to find a pump organ. I found one midtown in somebody's storage for like $50. Wow. Was it kind of like that size? It was this size. And I had the cabinet ornate cabinet on top, too. But it wasn't the person who who had it put an actual air pump in it. So you just pressed your foot down once and then it blew air into it. Oh, so that they wouldn't have to work the fee. That's some lazy. It was quite lazy, but it sure sounded great. And then I sold it to Brooklyn recording. Oh, cool. So I don't know. I probably played it. I don't think so. I think he probably was like, man, what the fuck is this? Because the pump, the air pump was pretty loud. Oh, so it kind of went against the whole point. Kind of. How much did you use it before you sold it? I used it a lot in the house. Oh, you did. And my kids would get on and get all scary and like play weird stuff. It was great. Also, it was beautiful. Yeah. Instruments used to be a lot more beautiful than they are now. There's some ornate and I had this in my kind of dining room for a while. Right. And it really was beautiful. It would get played every once in a while, but mostly it was furniture. Yeah, it looked pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I put art on it. I don't know. Like instruments have like lives and they're like made of wood that come from trees. And then they and then people sit at them and unlock stuff. And I feel like that's part of our job. It's the fun part. Yeah. I don't know if it's fun sometimes. You can tell on my Friday I had therapy this morning, too. I'm actually a little bit all over the place. That's OK. I can tell you that right now. That's great. Well, it's not fun if you can't unlock it. But don't you feel like you usually can? If I'm with the right people, yes. Yeah. And I don't know. So I think when I look when we first started making music, we were I mean, at least for me, I was just trying to make music. I wasn't even sure what it was for. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you're young. So you're like, oh, is that the right E7? Does it matter? Am I going to A minor or am I going to D7? Oh, my God. OK. Wow. How will I get there? And those small decisions. And then I think over time learning that those decisions meant something maybe about life that I didn't. No one taught me like when they were teaching me harmony. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, shit, OK. So OK, this means a little bit more than just playing the right chord. Yeah. You know this. What's the best part? Yeah. Yeah. Forgetting what the right chord is and then moving on to what it means inside you. Yeah. And that and finding that and finding it and and listening to it change and and making sure that you don't mind the changes. I think that's my my place where I am now. Yeah. Making sure that I don't mind the changes that are that are happening. And I don't mean like. I don't mean like changes in music. I just mean in myself. Yeah. This is perfect. You're the perfect guess for this podcast. And I'm glad you have a furry friend next to me. That's like I thought you might like that. Can I gush for a second? Sorry. Can I do that for a second? Because on the way here, I was. So I know years ago when Alicia and I had twins, twins raising kids in New York is like real hard, especially twins. Twins is difficult and and sunrise may have just been out. OK. That was like every day for about two years. Really? The record start to finish. That's amazing. So this morning, I was telling Malcolm, who's now 17, the six foot three ballet dancer. I saw I'm going to see Nor Jones today. I said, you know, we used to listen to her like every day for a couple of years when you were like a baby and then I played some and he was like, oh, yeah, that sounds like music that I like. I was like, yeah, well, we put that in you. He doesn't he doesn't probably actually remember it at all. I was like, we placed your taste. We're talking about actually you just came up with this on your own anyway. But then I was also re listening to because I think right at that time, like, OK, piano playing is a thing. Then piano playing in groups with a certain kind of energy is a thing. So you figure out a certain kind of way that your muscles move to make music. And then listening to your piano playing, I'm just going to talk about your piano playing so much during that record. My whole is I know it. How much my style changed. That's crazy. You're listening. No, no, any kind of two handed response to a melody line. It's because I was listening to you for that long. And, you know, like Shirley Horn, right? She has a way that she sings and plays, which is about space. But she does like something very kind of abstract with texture. Whereas you were like placing these responses that things Billy Holiday might think, but it wasn't playing the piano. And I was like, OK, OK. So then when I started working with bands that would act that had a certain space in it, especially when working with guitar players, I was like, oh, I'm going to learn how to use space. And I'm going to learn how to respond to phrases by just playing. You know, say, come on. Yeah. Oh, man, Jason, that's nice. I was like, well, you know, that's really a no. That's hilarious. Will you make me cry? No, just I just I want to make sure that that said that's no one really talks about your piano playing. I want to talk about your piano, because the the feel you have with the space you make around the voice and then the way you respond and then the solos to all that, man. Like so that record was like just like when you listen to something for a while, it has a way of like kind of like showing up as a as a reference point. Yeah. You know, and and for me, a high watermark reference point. That's so great. Thank you. I always say that on record now that I'm sitting there. I really appreciate that. You're so sweet. I think that record. I love that record, but I think it was a little all over the place. And because I was kind of finding my way for the second record. And some of it I love love and some of it I kind of forgot about because I don't play those songs much anymore. And we did a lot of songs by the band, which was really fun. Like the my band at the time, everybody had a song on the record. So it was sort of collaborative. Yeah. But you know about that octave stuff. The two octave. That's that that thing I do a lot. I totally ripped that from Oscar Peterson, not as fast, by the way, obviously. Speed. Yeah. And Jobim. Oh, yeah. Brazilian style. Yeah. Gling, ling, ling, ling. I hear that. OK. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of where I got it. No, it's work, so I mean, you know, like I think probably the beautiful part about music leaving its its own space is it finds a way to kind of like plant, be planted in another garden and like grow a little bit differently. Totally. And you almost redistribute the stuff that that seemed to work in the like, say, a straight ahead jazz context, like Oscar Peterson. But like, you know, I was often think of like those saxophonists, like Johnny Hodges and Duke Ellington's band, the way he could bend the note. And then the way like in Indian classical music, you hear the saxophone like you hear pitch as a as a as a thing around the world that really can waiver and but I love hearing and understanding that these small things connect to a lot of different places. We all know where we kind of get them or we don't. Right. And but they've all been around. But not the way we do them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Slow Oscar Peterson. Yeah. I mean, I can never play as fast as Oscar Peterson, but he did that too. That's true. Line thing. Yeah. It's phenomenal. Yeah. Wow. Well, this is so awesome. It's so good to see you. It's been about. I know how long it's been because I remember my baby. I have my baby with me and I know how old he is. So it's been almost 11 years since I've seen you. Wow. And so it's just really lovely to see you. Yeah, you too. Do you feel like playing a song? Sure. Yeah. I'll try. Yeah. Or like what, if I don't play a song? Well, I don't know. I really like that. That Curtis song you suggested. Oh my God. Yeah. The Curtis Mayfield song. Yeah. I was thinking that would be fun to try. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, sure. Let's try the makings of you. I think the other day I was listening to Move On Up, really. And it sent me to the piano like, oh, let me just try to get that strumming that's in that song. And and also I needed that song that day. Yeah. And then it led to makings of you. And I was like, wait a minute, do I not know how to play makings of you on the piano? I mean, it's so good. And then I was like, wait a minute, Jason, come on, go back to school right quick and sit down for a while. Is that what was happening? Because I asked you if you could think of a cover we could do together. And you're like, well, I've been inside this song all day. I had. I took the beat from makings of, I mean, the beat from Move On Up. There's like this drum break and extended version. And I slowed it way down and I just put it on in like for an hour. I just play, you know. Little one would know. Or believe if I told them so. Your second to none. The love of all mankind. Should reflect some sign of these words I've tried to recite. They are close but not quite. Almost impossible to do. Reciting the makings of you. The righteous way to go. Little one would know. Or believe if I told them so. Your second to none. The love of all mankind. Should reflect some sign of these words I've tried to recite. They are close but not quite. Almost impossible to do. Reciting the makings of you. Reciting the makings of you. Oh, that's so pretty. It is pretty. My God, so pretty. I mean, Curtis Mayfield. I know he's the best. You know, I think about like, I think specifically about Black Falsetto. Well, it's so cool that he's singing and I'm not even changing the key. And it's still high for me, you know. But I didn't change the key at all. And it's great. These people who can do that, you know, Prince or Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye. I think about the instrument too, at the piano, like the way to almost imitate falsetto at the piano. Sometimes that's about that thing that we were talking about before, the double octave thing. It's a way to kind of like give a sense that the note that you might have in your body has a ghost that lives a little bit higher. I like that. I've never thought of it that way. So both of these are present at the same time. The double consciousness, you know, like it's like a double thing. So these people like Curtis Mayfield writing these songs that are like so tender also, so fragile. They feel like so good in a time when people are doing some other version of some other thing. There's some other performance that is less fragile, less tender. So I think when I heard that just the other day, I was like, oh gosh, so I'm glad you asked. I was like, oh, come on, can we try that? It's so pretty. It's just such a deep song and it's also, it's easier to receive something, some beautiful and deep if it's fragile. I think, you know, sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you know, but we moved to New York. I don't know why we live here sometimes. We moved here. Alvin was wondering how you felt about being in Brooklyn all these years. Yeah, yeah, I feel kind of stuck here. Like I can't get out of it. I mean, we're both from Texas. Yeah, yeah. Right? You're from Houston. From Houston. Okay, Arts Magnet. Yeah, come on, HSPVA. Yeah. You had Glasperon here. Yeah. We know all these people. Yeah, this is, you know, but also like when I was in high school, you know, Booker T was our battle school. No, I know. I know. But I never got that because I feel like I just met so many people from the Houston school. And vice versa. And I never felt competitive with any of them because I wasn't like you and Robert and, you know, Sean Martin and everybody. You guys were a little more on the same plane. I was kind of like down here doing my little still learning chords. Just watch. I was like, I can sing though. I can't play fast, but I can sing. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I was just in Houston last week and I have been spending the full year. It's a year now playing mostly Ellington concerts. Really? In celebration of his 125th birthday. Oh, is that what it is? Okay. So right. So I got just been all around the world playing these Ellington shows. That sounds really fun. Yes. And really challenging and really good for me because as a pianist, he is a great pianist. He is not to be messed with. No. Just as a pianist. Okay. Then we're going to get into his songs. Okay. Wow. And then you want to get into his, what his songs could mean. Oh, like keep sifting through the layers. There's so many layers. Yeah. But I played this concert last week with the high school big band. Like I was like, I want to play a full show with you all. From the school. From the school. And it's so special. It felt, it felt good. And these kids were taking risks that I was like, okay, the pros don't do that. Really? I mean, you know, maybe it's because they're kids. Yeah. But, but I felt like they had a kind of recklessness with the music that I was really appreciative of. And also I felt like, oh, that's kind of what the school wants to, wants to make. It's like some restless students who want to wrestle with music or wrestle with dance or wrestle with theater, wrestle with art. And my gosh, we're going to need their, their sensibility. Yes. I look forward to these kids kind of coming out onto the scene in the next 10 years because they'll, they'll have some solution points that I think our generation just wasn't, you know, they're just another crew. Yeah. They have a phone, first of all. They have a whole other level of knowledge also of stuff that's out there that we didn't completely have. Yeah. I was going to say that kids are like a, like a song you have to keep playing. Yes. That's good. Yeah. Like, you know, like, and then they're going to, you know, one day they'll play themselves. They're right. And then, and you know, they'll know how to sing it and they'll, that's what I'm kind of watching the 17 year olds. Look, they kind of, they kind of know their song, which already. Okay. Great. They're like grown. Basically. A little bit, a little bit. Is this their last year in school? They have another year. Oh, okay. Cool. So you're not quite there. Yeah. Well, I can't imagine it's going to happen in like five minutes. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, I think when we signed up for this stuff, you know, I didn't know how much my music would change about raising people. Interesting. I was like, so thankful. Yeah. Can you, can you say more? Can you like put that into an example? Or is it clear? I mean, maybe this is a perfect segue, but, um, oh, very clear. Um, I started doing the fat swallow show because I needed a place for my kids to act a fool, run up on stage, run around, yell in the audience because I was meant to be making a party, not a concert. The fat swallow show was always a party. I wore a paper mache mask of fat swallow. You played the part more. Yeah. Like, no, this is a, this is supposed to be fun. Yes. In a dark time. And, um, and the kids should feel like this is theirs. Like they're part of it. So they would be part of the show. Yeah. If they were there, they could run around and do anything because it was supposed to be a dance party. So like that's like, I mean, I would test songs on them. I'd be in the house like trying to figure out like this song past wall has called yacht club swing. And I was like trying to play it and then Malcolm, who the dancer now, but he would start dancing and he was like, come on, come on, come on, come on. And I was like, oh, I hear that. Yeah. So they were like, they were ground zero for like, is this good? Yes. That's what I mean. I know what you mean. They were like quality control. That's cool. It could have effect them. Could have effect the kids. Or does it go completely over their head and they don't care about it? You know what though? But I mean, look, kids who grew up with parents who do a lot of their work at home, they absorb so much of it. They don't even think like Alicia warming up. Doing lip trills and, you know, loud operatic singing at all times of the day and night. You're used to that sound. You're not, you know, I mean, they also, they had that in the womb. That's true. So they're not, they don't think of it as like, um, that's doing weird music. They're at least not to me. Maybe they think that, but maybe they don't tell me. But mine tell me when they don't like it. They're very clear. There was one show, I guess, when I was playing at the old stone that John Zorn used to have on the lower east side and was playing with this drummer and bass player and the boys were there and they were sitting on the floor right in front of the band. We were like thrashing. Then they came up base solo and then Jonas just went to the bassist. I was like, okay. It's not cool. But you know, also like, I don't know. Because the kids read is, I mean, you know, it hurts sometimes. It hurts, but you don't need that many bass solos. Let's be honest. Anyway, but yeah, no, I really, I also really appreciate the young minds because they, because they aren't like beholden to the same things that we think are important. Yeah. You know, not at all. Yeah. That's the best. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's something. I don't know. So anyway, that's why I was going to say, oh, you want to try Fat Swaller? Yeah, I think we should. I, why not? Yeah. That's, that's sounds, I'm sorry. I missed that show. You ever do it again? I have to do it again. Yeah. Who are the artists who are aware enough of the time to know, maybe not know all the way 100% consciously, but know what the public needs. Maybe it's what they needed. And them. Oh my gosh. And he, I mean, he died young. And younger. But exactly. He's got to share the stuff, the feeling of the people, his, his own inner battle, his drinking battle that took him out in the end. And, you know, when he passed away, he was cremated and his ashes were spread across Harlem in, in, in, in an airplane or helicopter. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And the reason I live in Harlem is because, so I could still have some of his dust. That's amazing. I never thought of that. All these people, I live in Harlem because of that piano history that's up there. Duke Ellington and Mary Lou Williams and Fats Waller, you know, like all these people that would be on the block, James P. Johnson, Willie Lyons Smith, like these people who I think like impact how the piano is played. And then, you know, but they lived in a neighborhood and they traded songs and they traded. And windows were open. Windows were open. You can hear the piano. Yeah. That's my favorite sound when you catch it. Yeah. That's so rare. It's almost never anymore. Yeah. Oh my God. You're bringing that up. Right. I can't wait till the spring over my window. Yeah. They don't have to battle. Play for the neighborhood. Yeah. I've got to battle the, uh, the dumpster in the back. Yeah, exactly. Play for the garbage man. Get up early and do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right and it would be cool. Right. You know, I knew you weren't expecting it, but if I did, it would be okay. That's right. Yeah. I mean, look, there's other music you can play where the map is there for you. Yes. But I think we chose music that lives a little bit more. People like to say organic, but... It sounds cheesy. It's like, what was organic before they started saying that word, you know what I mean? Exactly, everything was organic. Yeah. But it does like just live though. Yeah. I also, I just, I wanted you to play the stride too some more. You sound so good. I mean, like that stride stuff. You're good at it. It's hard. I mean, it's the thing I came to New York for. Really? Because I felt like, I came to New York to study with Jackie Bayard at Manhattan School of Music. Okay. It was really clear. Did you come at 18? Like right after school? Right after school. Okay. Thank God I had a scholarship. Thank God my parents were like, sure. And did you live in the dorm or what? I lived in the dorm. And were you just like, this is crazy. Or you just go and see so much music that you were excited. That all those things. Yeah. You're in New York city where the music lives on the street. And it's the 90s. So like, it's also what has become known as the golden age of hip hop. So just the streets itself work was kind of incredible. And, but Jackie Bayard was like, he played with Charles Mingus. He played with Eric Dolphy, played with Sam Rivers. He plays all this kind of weird history of piano. And he cares about it enough to not stop playing it. That's cool. Being like the stuff that went out of style. He thought, no, there's something to do with it. And he definitely gave me that. Like, here's your mission. Don't ever tire of history. That was like his thing. That's a great way to think about it. I mean, it's also challenging because you'll watch your peers. Many of them in the field can often turn away from history really easily. Meaning like, I'm doing my thing. I'm doing my thing. And not think that it's cool or important to acknowledge as much. Yeah. And Jackie wasn't necessarily about that. And I could say all my teachers, Andrew Hill and Muhaar Richard Abrams, they really weren't like that. And then I think about the people that one other person we met with a few times was with Mary and McPartland. Oh yeah. You were on Mary and show once or twice? Twice. Twice, yeah. And then we did duet concerts together. Oh, amazing. I wanted to talk to you about that. I mean, like Mary and McPartland, like here you are doing your show. Well, this is a total rip off of her show. I mean, she was the complete inspiration for this. Yeah. So what a woman. What a pianist. What a thinker. She was cool. Very cool. And nothing was off limits when she was at the piano. I know. It was beautiful. I'm so glad you had that too. Yeah. And I remember, I think one time there was a birthday party for her at Birdland. And you all played. Oh yeah. We were all there. Yeah. What did you play? You played the nearing? No. I don't remember. Okay. So it's gonna come to me. No, I don't remember what I did on that. I did her show twice though. Once in the studio and then once in front of an audience. Right. Yeah. So there are people like that, right? Like Mary McPartlin who sits out here and talks to musicians she knows, some musicians she doesn't know and she wants to get to know them better. It's just so cool what she did. For a long time too. Yeah. And then like that and then they pass. Right. So then. I know. And she's gone. But actually it makes me think of this moment I had with her. Which, you know, I came up singing standards and I don't think I thought about the lyrics yet because I was too young to really understand what I was singing about, you know? And she was talking about, for all we know, that song. Wow, yes. When her husband, Jimmy, died, someone wrote her a card and on the card just said, we come and go like a ripple on a stream, which is a lyric from that song. Wow. And it just like floored me. Wow, wow, wow. And it made me realize, oh yeah. These aren't just these old standards. These are just deep, beautiful poetry. And at the time when she was young, they were new. Yeah. And it just made me think about them differently. And it was a moment. Yeah, about when people, maybe that's what I kind of want to say about Curtis Mayfield. Like when do we need a song? Yeah, we need it. Like in whose songs get pushed up? Like whether, dare I say it, whether it's the algorithm or not, you know? Yeah. People respond to it. Yeah. And once get pushed up into our consciousness that then we hear it again. And we almost hear it anew. Yeah. Which are great songs can stand that listen over and over again, you know? That's beautiful. The conversation between generations, right? It's really important to have. And it's kind of rare. Yeah, like, okay, you're right. Like, right, so when we came up to New York and you met an older musician, then you'd have to really get humble one. To listen because you know that, well, they know other stuff. And that was my thing with Jackie. He was like, he knows stuff that, I don't know, none of the piano players out here on the scene talk about. And I also know that he's in his mid-70s now. So this is not gonna be here forever. Yeah, take advantage. And that intergenerational conversation is, wow, I think for art making is so necessary, you know? Yeah, it is. And so Marion was like, come on, you little youngster, what you got? Yeah, I know. That's what it felt like. That's how I felt. We were probably not far from the same age. I was probably 22 or 23 when I went on our show. And I was nervous. I also grew up listening to her. Right, right. And then when they served like that role of like somebody you can rely on, reliably gives you information. Yeah. And not only just music information, but like contextual information about another artist. Yeah. Those people, they did a lot of work. You know, a lot of really great work. And every once in a while when her birthday comes up, I'm recharged with how important a person she was and the legacy of spreading kind of art making to a wider public. Yeah, it's special. Yeah, the demystifier. Yeah, the great demystifier. Good on Marianne Parland, that show. Another song I really loved is that for James Song that he suggested. Yeah. That's another, I feel like you have a, I think I'm really into the same thing, the sort of cyclical songs that don't really have an ending and they just kind of keep going and you just want them to keep going. I think that Curtis Song had a little bit of that too. That's true. Yes, it does. You're right. The chord cycle leads itself back into itself instead of having an ending in the every start. Yeah, exactly. I love songs like that. Yeah, there's, I don't know, the songs that are infinite. I don't know, for James is written for this guy, James Reese Europe, who was this incredible composer at the turn of the 20th century. And he's a black composer here in New York, really kind of revolutionizing music. Like moving out of Vaudeville, what black performers are having to do on stage and starting to say like, there's something else that we can say on stage. And so he has this, like what they term as the first big jazz concert at Carnegie Hall in like 1910 or 1911. Really? There's 165 people on stage with him. That's insane. It is. And so when World War I happens, he joins the war because he wants to fight for America. And when they find out that he's joined, they say, oh wait, but you're famous. So why don't you lead a band? Wow. He says, I need, I think the equivalent was like $300,000 back then. That's what he was like. He said, he was like. Did he overplay it just so he would get a little bit? No, he overplayed it because he said, they're gonna say no. But they said, sure. They said yes. They didn't even talk him down. And they gave him money and he went, got musicians from Puerto Rico, got musicians from Chicago. He got the best band he could to put together this band. And they went to Europe and they fought on the side of the French. That's how segregated the American forces were. So the black soldiers for America fought on the side of the French. It's kind of wild story. That is such a weird story. So I made this piece about him. And we've been traveling for like seven years. But I hadn't written a song for him. I just kind of played the material he played and we manipulated. And we have this film that happens with it. But for James is kind of based on a medley he wrote. And sometimes the medleys these artists were putting together were songs that were quite racist. You know, like, I think the medley is called Plantation Medley. So it's like, ah, come on, you know? But sometimes somewhere in the transition material between the two songs, he composed this little like three bar thing. And it was like. Like something like that. And then something like that, something like that. And I just thought when I heard it, I was just like. He just went. I said, I gotta get to a piano. Yeah, that's great. I gotta get to a piano. And here what I think happens with that. And then how, what he imagines for, it's what big bands become. What he's imagining when the band he takes to Europe in this military band becomes big band sound. Yeah. And how does he, in all that work he does in the 19 teens lead up to like an earth one in fire. Yeah. To a Duke Ellington, like all the way the horns working all this stuff. And in the, in this song, you have the band and the end comes in, it sounds like more like a second line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I've been trying to, it's like my sing along moment at the end of the show. Oh, I love it. I love when you start singing it. I am not a singer, but it's also a vocalize. It's cool. I mean, it wants lyrics. I almost wrote something, but then I was like, I don't really know enough about James. So I wanted to ask you about it. I hear that. But what if I sat next to you? Would that be cool? Yes. [(Music Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Plays, Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, thing together that says, oh no, you know, it keeps like, goes up. Don't you ever. No. Yeah, when the sort of second line style, New Orleans-y vibe comes in at the end of that, it's really, I just want to, I just started dancing. Yeah. And those are like kids, those are college kids. There's a woman named Stephanie Neal who started an organization called the 369 Experience. So it's built to teach that music to HBCU kids and all those bands. So she sources like 60 kids. So I went and met with them in DC and then I taught them this song by ear. Yeah, the marching band. They started like coming up with stuff. The drum was like, oh, hold on, try this. Yeah. And I was like, oh, shit. They got into it like so quick. That's also maybe something else about good, I don't know why I was going to say good music. So fuck that. I'll take that. That's something else about good music. Is that the ability for it to get into other people and then them feel like they can add something to it versus like, I can't do anything with this except sing it. But they wanted to like add all this stuff to it. So that experience is captured at the end of that record. It's like, I was literally just talking to them about this man, this music, this song. And then I say, and the person who taught me about this man is Randy Weston. You know, like, like, like I'm like, nah, like let me make sure. That I came to Brooklyn to sit at Randy Weston's house and he was one for three hours told me about James Reis Europe. I was like, you got to know about James Reis Europe. You know, like, yeah. So these, this is that intergenerational conversation that so thankful that I had when I moved to the city because I did need guidance, you know, Yeah, you can get really lost here. Yeah, which is, you know, why people come. It's true. Meaning like, you know, like, I think it therapy. I was I was loving that when you move to New York, you can like, you're sure that people say, ain't nobody worried about you. You know, like you can almost you can kind of disappear. Especially the older you get, I've noticed lately. I feel invisible. It's kind of good. It's kind of, it's kind of nice. It's definitely humbling. It's like, wow, these young people don't give a crap about me. They have no clue and they don't care. It's it's. I mean, I was also like, when we think about. The industry we we walked into together and, you know, like what it was in the late 90s. Versus what it is 25 years later is like a totally different. You know, and if we talk about Bruce Lundfall for a moment, just for a second, yes, just talk about how beautiful. A leader, he was, he was amazing. Head of Blue Note Records signed me to Blue Note signed you. What year did you sign to Blue Note? 99. Oh, yeah, before me. OK. And yeah, he was just the best. Yeah. He gave me a notebook once of standards. He said, sometimes when I'm on the plane, I just want to be on the plane. I just try to think of all the standards I know. And here's it because I was making some demos for them. This is before they signed me. Oh, wow. First, they gave me a little money to make more recordings because they weren't sure about me during that. I know I didn't know that they weren't sure. I was in the office when the tape came in. Oh, really? No way. That's crazy. But go ahead. Yeah. And he gave me this little notebook full of just like song titles. And I took it on the airplane with me. And I was like, oh, my heart, Bruce. Bruce was. I was playing with in a saxophone, Greg Osby's band. And he was Greg Osby was on Blue Note. And then Greg made a record and I played on it. And I was still in college. It was like big deal. And then. We played at the Sweet Basil. Sweet Basil was in the village and Bruce was there. And he just came up to me in the middle of the in the break. And he said, you want to make a record? This is the first time you met him. I don't. It may have been around. Maybe it wasn't the first time. Do you, Bruce? Listen, I'm just like, you know, like it's kind of like fast like that. And it's full of energy. And he's like, yeah, I'm psyched about it. And I was like, I surely wasn't ready to make a record. Yeah. I was like, how do you turn? No, you don't turn that down. You go for it. I wasn't either. I wasn't ready to make a record. No. And I, you know, kind of, you know, dare I say, we're kind of spoiled by a person who kind of can see that much. You know, your potential. Yeah. And then every record, he was like, what do you want to do? Like all every story I'd heard about anybody entering the record industry is you're rarely in charge of what you want to do. He said, what do you want to do? Oh, I'll do true. OK. What do you want to do? I'll do Sam Rivers. Oh, OK. Like he was like, whatever. No, you're right. He was we were so lucky. I don't think I even realized it until a few years later. And he was super giving. And yeah, he even I even did a couple of records. Like when I got more into a different sound further and further from jazz, he he even admitted to me. We used to have these martini lynches. Did you have those with him? Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah. The martini drunk. I didn't drink it martini, but I'd watch him. Well, I did. And I don't know what made me think I could drink with a man in the 70s who's been drinking martinis for he's big. He's like six foot three for 60 years. But yeah, big dude. But we would I mean, we would just drink for hours. And he finally admitted to me after a couple of martinis. I don't really like this record when you gave it to me. Wow. I got it. I got to tell you. I got to be honest with you. And I loved that. Yeah, it made me feel good. He's like, but now I kind of get it. But he didn't say he loved it, but he he understood it more. But he's like so interesting. Isn't that funny? He had to admit to me that when I first turned in the record, he didn't like it. But they still let me do it. They didn't say anything. Well, that yeah. And that's it was the fall. And then the Little Broken Hearts record is the two records that were very far from what I had done before. I mean, but also like you got to let artists travel. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, I just remember. Yeah, I felt like there were during that era there was there were. I watched artists like clearly. Somebody suggested that they should do a ballad's record. Oh, yeah. You know, and I was like, you're the last person I want to hear do about that. So funny. Like, you know, like I just remember thinking like, why are you all doing that? Why are they doing it? And I had and all my teachers and mentors, they were like, oh, Jason, just you got a you know, you got to like, don't, you know, have your vision, you know. And so. Yeah, you're very challenging like that. And so I was really like every record I was going to try to be showed. Like keep turning the toggle. Yeah. And. That felt good because then I knew that it wasn't like going to show up in like a straight line that would seem like like when you talked about Sunrise being a record that felt like I felt like, oh, yes, it's perfect. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like not in a bad way. Yeah, but like, you know, like it shows it shows how much can happen in a band sound. And and the kinds of stories and the kinds of songs and forms and I crave that. And I also, you know, so now there's another generation of musicians coming up and I'm urging them constantly, you know, like don't ever lose sight that there there has always been an era of artists who are really going to try to keep pushing forward and maybe not everything is going to be understood in the moment. That's right. And it takes time sometimes. Yeah, it does take time. Yeah. I mean, you always just have to do what feels good to you. Yeah. Or uncomfortable, but in a good way. Yeah, in a good way. Speaking of uncomfortable, but in a good way, I feel like you really you really always intimidated me because you're you're so amazing. And I always felt. A little out of place on Blue Note because I wasn't. Like a jazz. What do you call it? I wasn't nerd. No, you are. I was a jazz. You are a jazz. But I wasn't, you know, I wasn't writing jazz songs and I couldn't play fast. And I felt a little bit like a less than what's the word I'm trying to think of. I don't know what that word is. But you know what I'm saying. I know what you're talking about. But OK, but I'm going to let you finish. Well, yeah. So anyway. You never did anything to me, but I was intimidated by you because you're I feel like you're on another plane. And it's just such a beautiful thing to watch you make music. And I always felt like just a little kid on the side, you know. Oh my God. Well, that's how. But you got to be. I want to be clear that when I was there and that record came and the demo came in. It was like you felt the office was shifting. It was like, oh, shit, right? Because these songs were coming from and they were special. And then when those songs came out, we all were trying to play the song. That's crazy. No. And whether I play it came on stage and played it. But I always played it at home sitting at the piano. That's right. So the thing was that I always felt like, oh, and then everybody was like, thank God that she's here. Because what else is making, you know, the record label turnaround? Because it's a jazz label. I mean, of course. But like still, it was my, you know, I was humbled by you and everyone else on the label. I felt like just like some kind of weird imposter or something. And so so here's what you did for me. When we did the the Blue Note anniversary concert. And this is about nine or 10 years ago. You were emptying it, right? And you said, Nora, please come and sing a song with me. Brian Blade, who I play drums with, who plays drums with me sometimes often now, but at the time I hadn't played with Brian in like 10 years. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was John Padditucci on bass and Wayne Shorter. And I was like, what? Really? You you want you want me? Come on. Me? And I was like, OK. Come on. I really get. And I swear you you were so kind to me and cool. And I was really, really nervous. Wow. Of course. I mean, you know, it I mean, Brian always put he's but he's so great. Yeah. I knew Brian. But you know, you are so great. Padditucci is so great. And then but Wayne, I mean. Yeah. Yeah, that's talk about another plane. So another plane. And then we had such a special time. We played like two songs. And then you email me the next week and you said, hey, I think you should do a record with Wayne. I said that you said that to me. You know, you started this. So this album, I made called Daybreaks. And Wayne came in and he played on four songs. Yeah, we couldn't do the whole record. But like it was so great. Basically, we just recorded for two days with me, Brian and Padditucci and Wayne shorter. It was so great. I was just listening to that. You did that. I was just listening to that. You did that for me. You gave me the boost and the sort of confidence. I know. It was you. And I thank you for that. I was it was it was an honor. I should have had you play on it. But I selfishly wanted to play piano. Because who I mean, look, Wayne shorter, the way Wayne shorter hears, you can go like, yeah, like that. And then he'll spray the array of all those notes through his saxophone. I know he can. That's why Herbie loves playing loved playing with him is because that's how responsive he would be. And he might some all that sound up into one note. Yeah, you know, like I know. And he's he's such a special person. I think maybe I got very lucky to sub in that quartets band when Danilo couldn't do it. One time in Australia. Oh, wow. So I was always all the way on the other side of the earth. And that's when I kind of thought after playing with us like 2005 or something. And it was not long after that we did that concert. I just thought like, Wayne would be into this. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, and I also knew how important you you are, especially to the era that we were at the label. It was really important time for for me and for our colleagues who were all on the label, we had a special little era. It was an era. It was an era. The people, all the people under Bruce, too, at that time were so special. All the all the staff at Blue Note. They were all my friends. Yeah, yeah. It was really cool. So that moment felt like a very. Like a big it was a big moment. It's captured on in video. Thank God. You know, it's so cool. I've got pictures backstage with McCoy, Tiner, Brian, and it was cool. You know, Nora, you a bad ass piano player. Well, I'm just saying that stuff. I'm saying it again because that stuff needs to be said. Well, I'm not trying to get more out of you about that. But I will say you really you you lifted me up at a time when I wasn't sure I where I fit, even though I had a lot of success. I never completely knew where I fit. And mostly I didn't care, which is good. Right. But you reminded me that I had that part of my history. Musically and that I could fit there if I tried. And it was really sweet. That was it was a special special special day. Also was like at that moment that Bruce was like heading out. Yeah, he wasn't able to be there. Right. But he was coming in. Yeah. You know, there was a lot like right during that time. But also if I can just for a second talk about piano players or what are you singers who play piano or piano players who sing? Oh, yeah. I can't do that. All right. So I marvel at people who have a really singular piano style like you like a Nina Simone, Shirley Horn, who also really know how to distribute vocally at the same time. Yeah. Like so I don't know. Like was that always easy for you or? I think I think in college I had a gig at a restaurant where I played standards Fridays and Saturday nights. And they let me sing. When I wanted. So the gig was for a piano player. But I said, can I can I bring a little tiny amp in and sing like every few songs? And so that's how I got the muscle memory down or the coordination to do it. And that's when I realized I had something special by doing it together. Right. But I also I think normally when I'm doing like a song and recording, it's always better if I can do it together. Yeah. Because when I do it separately, I'm good at both enough, but it doesn't have the same interaction or like alchemy as when I do it together. I don't know how you all do it. It's it's a it's just a different muscle. It is. But. I often think about like when I was listening on the way here to you again, about how people make space in music. And I don't. So there's making space for the other musicians who you're working with. But I'm also meaning like. Maybe I mean manicuring space like a lawn, you know, like a Japanese garden. You know, that's what I mean. I more mean like that. Like you give enough distance between the bass and the piano and the voice and the drums or whatever else for the things to emerge when they need like. Yeah. And you know. But I think you're thinking of it in a different way. I think for me, I can't do it all at the same time because my brain won't let me the sort of coordination thing. So when I'm done with the phrase, I'll respond to it on the piano because I can't do it while I'm singing. So it's more of a limitation than making space, I think. Wow. OK. It really is. So good. I also think I will tell you this. This is the funniest thing ever. My old boyfriend from from that record, Lee Alexander, he said to me. He said, wow, I can't believe you found a way to do something with your limitations that's so special. It was like a weird like we realized at the time that I'm good at balance. That's I also can't play fast for shit. So my limitations sort of pushed me in one direction and I would play and respond to what I'm singing. But I didn't have the chops to to do everything else. Does that make sense? So it wasn't creating space. It was finding places I could fit within my my world that I had. So so to me, that's how I that's special. Yeah. I'm yeah. It's a. What do you call it? Like a coming to grips? Yeah, I don't know that. I mean, I guess when you when you are something, then this is what I do. Yeah. Uh, and I'm not downplaying it like I know that that I'm that what I have can be special. But it is sort of based on the limitations that I started out with. Well, they are. Exorbitant. But isn't that funny? They are. I mean, OK. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, I mean, like often when people talk about Nina Simone, that of course we love how she what she says and how she says it. Yeah. And then if I get selfish about it, let's just talk about the piano playing. Oh, yeah. My goodness, like the virtual virtual also. Yeah. And like, like and the sheer steadiness of the attack of her hand at the piano. It is so not gun shy. Well, and it's also multifaceted. She did all that sort of she had that classical background and she did all that stuff. But then on some of those soul recordings where she's just playing and it's kind of like Aretha. Yes. I'm like, who played piano on that? Aretha stuff. It's my favorite piano player. Oh, it's Aretha. No. Yeah. Right. Aretha. Yeah. And then there's Aretha. And then there's Aretha or Ray Charles. Ray Charles. Yeah, that's true. And they know where to put it. They just know where to put it. And that's it. Yeah. And I think, yeah, maybe that's maybe what I'm also responding to is often like I during that time when we were on Blue Note, I was working with Cassandra Wilson as well. One of my favorites. Right. And I felt like, OK, at the beginning of my career, I was like, I mean, I play with a lot of vocalists. And but when I worked with Cassandra, I felt like, oh, shit, Jason, you you're not prepared for this. You can make it through the gig, but you're not prepared. Why? So some I just I. Because she's so deep and. Yeah. And then she's doing all this blue stuff. And like I didn't quite know the blue stuff. OK. And I just didn't. And. So some years went by. She always stayed close for it. And I said, Cassandra, I think I'm ready to play. So then we did another record. OK. I think it's Tenderly or something like that. Or Loverly is the name of the record. And then I felt better about it, you know? And then even when I listened back to that, I was like, oh, Jason, but damn. Because I think there's a way when pianists is working with a vocalist, there's like a way that we want to support and engage, but also like make sure we're giving space, you know, and not feel like we're showing you a note to play. You know, how you yell at piano players for doing that shit. So. Yeah, don't double the melody. I'm going to sing it. Come on now. I got this. Exactly. Do not double the melody if I'm going to sing it. OK. Yeah. OK. Please send me just you saying that. I'm not going to send that to so many people. I know. We're just going to slice it out for you. That's what I think. Yeah. But you didn't know that at first. No, I didn't know that. You already knew that. I wouldn't do that. Yeah. But but it was just like. What you're saying is like is like, nah, you have to. You're when one person is making both of those things, and there's an inherent space you make. Yeah. So when I think of like Shirley Horn, it's the great vocal accompanist. Is Shirley Horn singing too? Yeah. So yeah. It's so she knows where she's going. Yes. Well, and I often double the melody when I'm singing. I was listening to you do that earlier. Yeah. Just now. But but you know where you're. But I know where I'm going. But I think I would probably not be the best accompanist for another singer. Well, for that reason, because I like doubling the melody when I'm singing. That's deep. Yeah. I like that. But yeah, that so that's what I that's why I also like talking about how the piano and the voice, you know, and then the centuries of that, you know, like Schumann and Brahms and like how far we want to go back. Piano and voices as a relationship. You learn a lot of spacing things in it. Brahms, the way Brahms spaces that as an E minor chord. You know what I mean? Like that. Like it's just like very like he's given like a lot of space, not. Not a tryout. Yeah, it's spread. It's spread. It's sort of a drop to. Yeah. So then in that you you and you allow more overtones to ring this all this subtlety that they place there. That I keep trying to get to when I when I'm when I'm working with people. And Cassandra has been a person I go back to every every seven years. We meet up. OK, let me try again. I'm sure you always have it. You just hard on yourself. I am hard on myself. OK, to keep learning and keep keep rolling, you know, keep changing. The thing she did the last time we played is she performs at 432. Oh, really? So I've been thinking more about that lately. So you have to have the piano tuned. I had Steinway tune the piano and you're doing local pianos. And yeah. So I had them. We had one in New York and then I had them tune D tune a D in New York. And how did it do? How did the piano do? Amazing. It sounded like another world. So normal is 440. 440. Yeah. But it used to be 432. It used to be 432. OK, so so can you explain the history of music to me? No. Definitely not. How did we arrive at that? Because this is like, OK, music is in us. Singing is an ancient thing. But yeah, piano is not. Instruments are not. I mean, they are and they aren't. Do you know how we arrived at 432? You know what? That's your that's your that's your next podcast. Who am I going to get in here to tell me about that? You get Cassandra was the kind of time. Maybe she can tell me. And so so so then when you move up to 440, when do you know when that happened? That's like, I want to say 30s, 40s. You know who I bet knows this is Matt, my engineer. He's like, actually. So not until the 30s or 40s did it move up. So any recordings, early recordings, well, they were pretty attitude. Yeah, see, like, exactly, right? That's the thing. And then and so like it was the first gig we did was myself, Marvin Sewell and Cassandra. And so he's used to tuning the guitar. Right. So he tuned it down. Right. And just I got to say, the songs just wow. They just felt more open. And if you do like, Symatics, you know, like on 440, it's very static, meaning like, you know, Symatics, like I don't know what that is. Symatics is like if you take a pitch and then you play and you play that pitch 440, like then that the way that affects water, you know, like it'll show up as a shape. OK. All the pitches show up as a shape in water. Water is affected by the sound. Wow. So right. So it's very static shape. But when you do 432, a 432, anything moves around like crazy. Yeah. And and so anytime we talk about like the body is made of water, you know, like mostly water when we're playing music and we're feeling it in a different way. It's just it's it's doing a lot. Sometimes people talk about it in the back one, but it's really just all your cellular makeup that's like totally being affected by it. So 432 felt like the songs just felt like they had more room to breathe. It helped me slow down a little bit. Wow. You played differently. It was great. That is really great. That is cool. I want to mess with that. Why did I start talking about 432? Because Cassandra. Oh, because of Cassandra. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So these people like Cassandra, like comping and those kinds of things you I learned from working with vocalist Michelle and Dege Ocello or I love her. Who I'm married to Alicia. Like the way that the piano works with these voices is, you know, really I think I keep wanting to experiment with because it it always helps me grow. That's cool. I think that whenever I try to sing and something is either slowed down or sped up. Now, I haven't actually tried it with 432 specifically, but I work with someone who likes to speed up and slow down stuff a little bit. And it's always kind of between pitches. That's nice. It can be. But I find that singing it between pitches is really hard for me, not because I have perfect pitch or something. But I think just the muscle memory of singing in tune, usually. It's just I mean, I can do it. It's just it's hard. It's hard for me to get a vocal take. Interesting when it's sort of between the pitches. And I wouldn't think it would be, but I guess it's just memory, a muscle memory thing, you know. Wow. So I don't know. It's kind of funny. I want to try it at 432 that now then see. You say you want to your pianos. Yeah, one of my one of my multiples. One of my pianos. That's a good idea. Well, do you feel like trying that Duke Ellington song? Oh, sure. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh That's a bit. Oh, that's so pretty. I thought I'm Marion in the middle of that. Oh, yeah. Very much Marion kind of vibe. That was very Marion. Wow. Oh, that's so pretty. Yeah. I mean, Duke Ellington. Yeah. The artist. The artist. You know, like, you know what we're talking about? Single piano players, like, he didn't. He didn't really sing. He didn't, but he kind of did, right? That's true. Like, he was vocal. Yeah. In a way that was cool. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then. I mean, thank God he had Billy Strayhorn. Oh my God. I was just thinking about that. Just the gravity of the lyrics that he actually found someone who matched the height of his music. Yes, that's right. And they, like, would travel the world together. Often have been saying, because I've been spending a year, like, playing the music and talking about it. Yeah. It's like, also, the other reason they need each other is no one person can see everything. So when you come back to the page to write a song together, the other person can write the thing that you didn't see. You know? Which is a, you have to be open to that, though. Yes. Not everybody's open to that. Yeah. I don't know if I'm open to that. Yeah. I mean, my goodness, like, it's a lot of sharing going on. Yeah. And with those two. There's a documentary with Ellington where they happen to be filming when Strayhorn passes. Oh, really? So there's footage of Ellington in the funeral of Strayhorn sitting in a pew. Like, you know, I don't know if this is just editing, but watching Ellington sitting at the funeral of his partner, basically. Yeah. Like, what am I going to do now that my partner is not here, who I write all these songs with? That's heavy. I should watch that. It's beautiful. I mean, that's the other thing about Ellington is that he's well-documented. Meaning like he arrives at a time, technology is there for him to make these long records. Film is there. Cameras are there. And then he lived a long life. And he had a long life, right? So then we have all these images and credible interviews. And he didn't mind the camera. Yeah. He embraced it. That's cool. Yeah. So I love that when you were singing that song on that record. I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. Florette, African. It's such a good one. And I've that album, Money Jungle, with Max Roach and Charles Mingus. Maybe you know the truth. Is Florette African? I heard that that was sort of just improvised on the spot, which kind of makes sense if I'm listening to it. It could make sense, yeah. But do you know if there's any truth in that? I don't know. I'm sure. I don't know. Actually, I don't know. I like the whole song was improvised. Yeah. But I don't know. There's only one other piano player who I think gets to that is that's Herbie Hancock. Meaning like the inventive nature of their piano playing. Like what Ellington is playing there, he has a thought of an idea. But how he decorates that melody. It's so pretty. Like, yeah, it's odd at times. But it's so simple. It's comforting, it's simple. Yeah. And then it gets a little bluesy. Yes. But it doesn't at all. Yeah. It's like a stew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like kind of like I recently made my first successful gumbo, which is a big deal. First? Yeah. I've been put through. Have you been practicing a while? I have been. And it was terrible. But I finally made a good one. But when you're cooking and they ask you to kind of like get the bottom of the pot. Yeah. The scrape up the bits. Yeah. Like I feel like Ellington is always kind of like making sure that there's something that has kind of like crusted over, you know? Yeah. Something that's a little burnt in there. He just. And then he picks it up. Yeah. He uses tension in a way and doesn't mind creating with it to make more, you know? And using his band to do that too. Yeah. Special at that. That's so great. And so you're doing that show still? Yeah. My last one is next week at the Apollo. Oh, that's right. So it's kind of like it's been a year. And it was for his 125th birthday. Yeah. And how old was he when he died? Oh my gosh. Let's see. He was born in 1899. I think he died in the late 70s. So it wasn't 80, you know? But he was getting. But he was old. He was mid 70s. He probably lived a hard life. I mean, look, he sure smiles a lot through it. He sure did, man. That smile. I think that's something that, like, right? When we think about people like that, like, who put on that show enough, you know? But I think the other thing was I think about him using a big band, a thing that goes out of style. And he's like somehow doesn't tire, like, keeping that. I'm not even a huge big band person. Me either. I'm really not. But I can't get enough of Wellington, big band. It's always weird enough. Yes. And just like, it's just. Yeah. And he doesn't, that band doesn't over it. I mean, of course, I could think about great soloists in that band. But I feel like sometimes the soloists aren't solos, really. Yeah. Like they really do feel composed. Yeah. Like a part. Yeah. Or like a character. Yes. Yeah. And these musicians are people that he felt closely about and wrote specifically for. That's special. That's special. I wanted to talk about your mass mocha show. That's really cool. So I didn't know you were an artist. I mean, it doesn't surprise me at all. Visual artist, that is? Yeah. I think for the past, maybe like, I don't know, since 2005, I've been collaborating with visual artists. OK. As kind of as much as I would collaborate with great musicians, I felt like visual artists were asking me questions that musicians weren't. Isn't that funny? I was like, thank God. You're going to help change me. And two artists in particular, Joan Jonas and Adrian Piper, these women kind of like arrive. I say simply that they arrive at the moment my mother passes. So these are two incredible women, conceptual artists, performance artists. And they don't play around either. And there's a record I did on Blue Note called Artists in Residence. And it has their work on it. And then over the years, it then introduced me to a lot of other artists who I was kind of fans of, who needed something for video. They needed something for performance. They needed something. This is why you live in New York City, by the way. I'm just going to say. That's very true. Going back to that. That is the benefit. That's true. That's true. The community can be quite small, totally agree. And then so it just kind of kept. And then I felt like these artists knew as much about music as I did. And I thought I was a specialist. And so the questions like a painter would be asking me about Thelonious Monk. They wanted to know something else that would help their painting. Yeah. It wasn't like they were trying to get a B flat chord down. They were like, nah, I want to. There's something about repeating a song. Why do you repeat a song? Why do you repeat a melody? Why do you keep going? Yes, right? Like all these kinds of things that's like. I would have never thought to ask that. No, exactly. Because it feels good. Yeah. And they're like, now there's something in that. And so then they make a work about it. So over the years kind of working with these artists then kind of developed a, I would say, a practice from watching a lot of them to help say, well, what? In relationship to music, like Miles Davis was a painter. Duke Ellington got accepted to Pratt but didn't go. Really? Yeah. I didn't know that. He's an art student. Like there's always been a relationship. That makes sense. Yeah. And so I started trying to figure out what are the traces that we leave as pianists at the piano. But then I also started really thinking about the places that musicians perform at. Like when I got to New York, I used to love going, I still love going to clubs and hearing bands play in basements. But then after those clubs shut down, then we sometimes think about the bands who played there in the bootleg recording. But I want to think about the place. Yeah. What happened to the place? What is it about the architecture of the place that also informs the music? It was also a part of that thing that was happening. Yeah. And it was a necessary place for an audience to come in to find something too. So there's something about gatherings that would happen in these clubs. And so I started remaking the stages from clubs that are no longer here. That's so cool. It's kind of wild, kind of bizarre. Yeah, I was watching the little video of it. And so does anybody play? Every once in a while. I was going to say, you must do music in the space too. Yeah, every once in a while. Somebody I know is going through there. I say, oh, you can go on up into it and play. Go play. And in some of the clubs that I've redone, like a slug, saloon, I would have Archie Shep come play and Charles Lloyd come play. And those are musicians who played the original, like the real club. Yeah, was it a weird, like out-of-body experience for them? I think they thought, man, it's kids here. It's just some wild shit. That's so fun. We'll do it with you. But I think of it more of a continued expression because I still feel like it all evolves from the piano for me. And but I felt that in over time, I don't want to be everywhere, meaning like travel on the road and always play all the shows. So how do you channel it? How can I exist somewhere and not be? Podcast, baby. That's what you got to do, man. It's your next endeavor. I'm visiting yours. But that's really cool. I want to see it because it looked beautiful. And it's up till January. Yeah, it's been up for like a couple of years. Oh, it has? OK. It's kind of, I mean, also, the largest contemporary art museum in America. Like it's incredible space up there. I've actually never been. Oh, it's a because it's also a long-ass drive. But I've heard it's amazing. It's like on my list every summer to take the kids and then I forget. It is really beautiful. But there's just something about kind of making sound and music not in concert spaces. I'm sure you've been asked to play all kinds of places. I don't know. Yeah, you're not going to think about it now. But then you go, oh, yeah, remember that time we were at? Well, I love the idea of like a house concert or an interesting space. It is a whole other thing. Yeah. And so sometimes like thinking about the way music fits into these spaces. And for me, watching also a lot of worlds, siphon ideas from the jazz world. So they extract the resources from a jazz world, which is a lot of struggle. You know? Yeah. And they move them over into fashion or into film or, you know, it siphon it out and reap all this. I don't know. Let's just say economy, right? For lack of a better term yet. But the musicians who are making this, like what? Like how do we kind of like start honoring what they did? There's a the Mellon Foundation recently gave this very large grant to musicians who are older in their lives, who have done a lot of this great work and who have not received. Oh, that's great. Big awards. And there's just something that has to come back to these people and to the community. And how do you kind of bring awareness to it? So this thing about jazz clubs, for me, revolution starts started in these clubs. Yeah. I mean, small spaces, you know what I mean? People coming into a room whispering shit to one another in between songs. You know, so there's a lot of brilliant minds that depend on that kind of music. And, you know, we're not the the the the the the the music itself is not looking for the the the the limelight because it already had that a long time ago. But I do think that, my gosh, as the country continues to age, this country, specifically, then where do we where do we keep some space to make that kind of music, to honor the musicians that did it, to honor the places that gather people together to do it and to know that it doesn't take like it takes all kinds of megaphones to start revolutions. It can be small. It can be small. Yeah. That people are focused online. Yeah. But it can still be in a small place. Indeed. Together in real IRL. Sorry. Well, that's beautiful. What did I learn today? I KTR. I KTR. I know that's right. I know that's right. From your kids. No. I KTR. What does that mean? Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, sure. IPB. I play ballads. That sounded like a disease or something. I have IPB. That's good. Well, do you want to take us out on a song? Can you? Sure. Would you play a song for me? And I won't play or sing at all on this one. I would love to hear. Really, you can play anything you want. But I was thinking reanimation or anything. No, I'll play reanimation just because it's a. It'll make me sweat a little bit. It's great. I'm going to play a short version. Yeah, do whatever you want. Thank you so much. But this is a yeah, not so pleasure to to be here and talk stuff. Oh, it's so great. Can we just hang out again sooner than 10 years? And I want to hang out with Alicia, too. Oh my God. Yeah. All right. Here here is reanimation. This is written for one of the artists, Joan Jonas. OK. This is a song for her. That was awesome. Thank you. I like how it melted. I just my shoulders just went down. I just started. Mine, too. Mine, too. Well, thank you. My friend from Texas. My friend from Texas. Yes. Good to see you. I'm so glad to see you. I'm so glad to see you. I'm so glad to see you. I'm so glad to see you. I'm so glad to see you. Texas. Good to see you. And thank you for making this space. Hang out. Thanks for it, for being so awesome and coming to do this with me. Thank you. Yay. Thanks. That was lovely. I love him. He's so great. He's so, I mean, obviously such a natural. If you want to know what songs we did in this episode, the first one was The Makings of You. That was a Curtis Mayfield song from his album, Curtis, released in 1970. The second song we did was Ain't Misbehavin, of course, music by Fats Waller and Henry Brooks, lyrics by Andy Rezoff. Originally, it was from the musical Connie's Hot Chocolates from 1929, but famously it was recorded by Louis Armstrong, Elifis Gerald, Sarah Vaughan, Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, and many more. The third song we did was for James by Jason Moran from the album titled 10, released in 2010. The fourth song we did was Florette, African from Duke Ellington's Money Jungle, released in 1963. I also did a version of that song on my album, Daybreaks, 2016. The fifth song we did was Reanimation by Jason Moran, and the album it was on was Reanimation from 2012. Special thanks to Jason Moran for joining us today, and we'll be back next week with St. Vincent. Nora Jones is playing along as a production of I Heart Podcasts. Hit Nora Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Nora Jones, and this episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry. Audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler. Artwork by Eliza Fry. Photography by Shervin Lenez. Produced by Nora Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Aaron Moncoffman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead Allison Cantragraber. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Jason. Bye. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.