Ep. 245: Madison Beer | Becoming Yourself with the World Watching

I met you as somebody who aspired to do music. Yeah. At 13 years old. What happened over the last 15 years? My goodness. Honestly, I get emotional thinking about it right now because it's just like little did I know that that news would change my life forever. This is my moment. Then I met Justin. He was like super sweet to me. Really took me under his wing and I spent a lot of time with him in those years. And then I signed to Island. And then I got dropped from it all when I was 16. And then we started. What's the lowest part of your career? I think I just got to a point where I was like, did I ruin my life? It was hard to be critiqued. Super young all the time. Considering your song Selfish has 500 million streams, I think you won. And now I'm at a place where I just let go of all that and I should make music selfishly. And I'm like, I want to make stuff that I enjoy. What's the moment that you realize that you had power? This season is presented by NMPA, the National Music Publishers Association. Champions of songwriters and publishers everywhere. Welcome to And The Writer Is. I'm your host, Ross Golan. Today's artist epitomizes pop stardom in the 21st century. From viral covers to developing her own artistry, she's braved this insane era of public self-discovery. So she's not just an artist who survived the algorithm, she has become it. Her fans are undeniably loyal. And her music is making new ones every release. And the writer is Madison Beard. What an intro. Thank you. What are the three songs people would know you from? Would know me from, I think my song Reckless. My song Make You Mine. And probably my song Selfish. I think those are probably my top three if I had to guess. And what are your three top three? I've got the song Envy the Leaves that I love very much. Why do you love that one? I just love the lyrics. I think it's like some of my favorite lyrics I've ever written. Why wasn't it in the three that you mentioned? Because nowhere near my most streamed. But why? Who knows? Who cares? Honestly. But I love singing it on tour as well. It's like one of my favorite songs to sing live. It's just super fun. I have this other one called Spinin' that comes to mind that I love very dearly. Why do you love them? Again, just I think lyrically. I think that those songs are songs that had no intention of being the single. I think Spinin' was a single, but it wasn't like there was no expectations behind it. I think I knew that it was a bit like left of center and it wasn't going to be some big radio song. So I don't know. I think that's when I feel my freest and my best is when I'm just writing for me and the things that I think are cool to say and whatnot. But honestly Make You Mine, which is one of my biggest songs, was that as well. There was no pressure behind that song, which is fun. You mentioned lyrics as being the reason why those are your favorites. Do you think of music in a hierarchy of lyrics, melody, production, lyrics, production, melody? What's the order of importance to you? I think honestly maybe melody to me is probably the most important and honestly probably then production, then lyrics genuinely. I think that that would be my my tier. But yet your favorite ones are lyric focus. But they are like all encompassing. I do love the production and the melodies of both those songs as well. But I think just when I was writing them both, I was like, this feels very poetic and I felt like I could showcase that side of my writing, which I don't really get to do as much on my songs like Baby or Make You Mine, where they're just kind of like sexy, fun songs, you know? Yeah. Well, this is kind of an interesting story because we did actually meet and this will be your... Was I a child? You were a child. Goodness. I was with Benji and Joel Madden. Okay, totally. I used to hang with them all the time. And this is probably 2012? Yeah, I was 13. And you came in with your mom? Totally. Maybe you guys were living in Jersey? Long Island. Long Island, that's what it was. Same difference. Yeah. Same difference. Fair. Sorry guys from Long Island in Jersey. I don't want to get into that. No, I'm sorry. But I met you in a studio and I met you... And I think the thing is that I met you in an era when there was no public persona. There was no Instagram yet. I don't think Instagram existed yet. It existed, but it was not at all what it is now. Like, I definitely was posting things, but they were like my vans and like my drink at Earth Cafe. That was about it. It's just a whole other person though. I met you as a musician. I met you as somebody who aspired to do music at 13 years old. And so I think what was so interesting when it came up like, hey, do you want to do an interview? I was like, yeah, this is fascinating because I meet a lot of people who aspire to do music. Yeah. And I talked about this in another episode that came out recently, but there's something where like this industry doesn't reward success. It rewards a strong nervous system. And like, can you stand the game long enough? Absolutely. Can you figure out a path where you can make music for a career? Yeah. And so anybody who comes into a studio at 13 years old means that you've been working professionally now for what is that, 14 years? 15 years? Yeah, I'm turning 27. 15 years. Like, just perspective, a lot of people don't start their career until they graduate college. Yeah. They'd be five years into their career at this point, not 15. Yeah. You have so much experience working in the business. And I think it's interesting from the perspective of somebody who has survived the business for that long. So first of all, congrats. Thank you. But I just thought it was interesting to find out what happened over the last 15 years. My goodness. Yep. But let's go from even before that. At what age did you know, tell me about your childhood. You're born. I'm born. Okay. You want me to take it from there? Let's go from there. Okay. I'm unsure that I have any memories at all prior to maybe five. When do you feel like your first memory is from? Probably that's about the right. I mean, like some great, maybe their memories, maybe their stories. They're like photos that you're like, okay, I can associate. I feel like I have some memories probably from, yeah, around like five. I remember growing up in Long Island. I grew up in Brookville and my parents had this like awesome house that they renovated and my mom was an interior designer and my dad builds houses. So it was just like our, My dad's an archetype. My mom's an interior designer. Look at us. How about that? Look at us. I speak this language. Yes. And so it was really cool like growing up in this house that they really like created together and whatever. And we had this beautiful big backyard and an awesome playground and my brother, Ryder, was born when I probably had just turned four, I guess, if I'm doing the math correctly. So he was a baby and he's really like my best friend and has been the person obviously that has been like my longest-losting friend. He gets me more than anyone. He makes me laugh harder than anyone. I just really adore my brother. I have a song called Rider on my album, Sounds Between Songs. But yeah, so then my parents got divorced when I was seven. This was in 2006 where I felt like I was the only kid that had divorced parents. And then my mom, I vividly remember her saying to me, she was like, I promise you, give it a year, you will not be the only kid that has divorced parents. I like that is one of my most vivid memories is her saying that to me. And not to be like cynical. She was just genuinely like, you will not be alone in this feeling for much longer. Cause I think she obviously had known there was other parents that were dealing with things. And so she was right. And then I remember every month basically a kid would come to school crying because their parents were getting divorced. And I had a hard time with it. But I think it didn't mess me up too bad. I was pretty okay. I think I knew pretty young that I wanted them to be apart and happy versus together and miserable. Are you close with both parents? I am. Yeah, now in my adult life, I think I was like much closer with my mom because she was the one who moved to LA with me when all of this kicked off. And then my dad stayed in New York. So that like caused a little bit of a separation. But now that I'm older, I'm definitely close with both of them. But yeah. And then, and then, you know, obviously jump forward a bit. I probably would say I was 10 when I was like, I really want to be a singer when I'm older. That was like my first real conscious thought of that. But I was always singing my whole life. I mean, there's videos of me at four years old, always in plays at school. I had every day after school, I would go to this place called Stars of Tomorrow. And it was like this after school activity. I don't even know what you would call it, but basically they would put on these little silly shows. And there's actually a really cool video of my teacher who her name was Miss Wendy. And she is, I'm on stage in front of like, it's basically to all the parents. That's who comes and watches at the recital or whatever. And she's literally like, I'm not trying to be mean to any of the other kids, but like, remember the name Madison Beer. She's like, I promise you this kid is going to make it. And she said that we have a video and it's such a crazy video. And she really instilled this like belief in me, I think really, really young. And I, like I said, I probably was four or five when I was there. And what's the first song you remember singing at one of those? The Star Spangled Banner. Really? That was my. Have you sung the Star Spangled Banner? A couple of times. I'm not sure that I ever want to do that again though. It's where were you when you did it? I did one at a Knicks game. I did one to Rams game ones. I did one at a, I did one for the Stanley Cup, which was really cool. But it was clutch because it was during COVID. So I got to like not actually be there, which was kind of cool because I wasn't as nervous. But the national anthem is terrifying to sing because if you mess up anything, you're just, it's. Yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah, everyone's like, we hate this girl. So it's scary. I'm not sure that I want to do many more, but I remember doing that. So you start off with the most nerve wracking thing you can possibly sing. Yeah. It happens to be that. And I remember I was like holding like a little American flag in the video. It's very cute. But yeah. So then like, I think that, you know, that was just nurtured for a really long time and becoming that like my parents and specifically my dad, like my dad always had a camera in my face and was like, sing for me. And he was really encouraging my whole life. And yeah. And then I think they introduced, what music were they introducing you to? My dad's a huge Grateful Dead fan. So that was, were you singing Grateful Dead songs? No, I was singing really random songs. I was actually singing a lot of songs I would make up were what I was doing. I would come downstairs and be like, I wrote this song. What was the first song that you came downstairs and said, I wrote this song? You know what? Okay. So unsure where it came from, but it was this, I must have seen something like on TV that was a Chicago-esque like Broadway type thing. I have no idea where I got this from, but I wrote this song called Roxy and it was, it was about like a girl named Roxy who was this like superstar. No idea. Couldn't sing it for you if I tried, but I have a video where it's very funny. Could you really not sing it if you tried? All I know is I was like Roxy. Like that was like the, that was the big moment. Oh yeah. And I was probably four years old. And then the first song I really remember writing, it was a song called Butterfly and it was on, in Miami, in South, in South, in or on South Beach, I'm sure what you're supposed to say there. I was, I was on the beach and there was a guy just that would sit and play guitar. And I don't know if the system was that he would like for tips sing with you. I don't really know, but I just remember recording it on a CD and I have like, I think I was in the song, he's like, Madison, you're eight years old. Like he says that in the song. So I was eight then I have that recording somewhere on a computer. Wait, so you, you met a random dude, you meet a random dude with a parent. Yeah, I assume I was with my dad. I see me were just roaming. I think I was with my dad and I eat some guys playing guitar. How does that end up on a CD? Well, he would like record them there. Yeah, literally with a little machine, whatever those machines were in. What was it? What was the song? Um, it was called butterfly. How does it go? I can't recall. You can't or you won't. I literally swear I really don't recall. I'm trying to think, I remember his part being like Madison, you're eight years old. I remember him saying that and then. Have you ever, have you ever come? I think I said something like butterfly, follow me. I don't, I really don't know. I can get you the recording though. I think it's important. I could find it. Have you, um, uh, I promise we won't release it without permission. Uh, all right, Zeke, let it go. Um, um, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll clue you and Zeke, right, Ben? Uh, that's an inside baseball joke. Um, uh, so. So you go and you were, was listening to your voice and writing a song. Was that an infectious moment or was it sort of like, uh, like, of course, it's just natural that eight year olds are already into this. Hmm. I don't know that I like, I think I just loved music. I don't know that I even knew like I was writing songs or what that meant. I think I just really loved music and was very obsessed with it. And, um, and then like what I was getting at was like at 10, I then started singing lessons and started aggressively being like, I, what do I want to do? Which I'm not sure that most 10 year olds like think about their career path, but I was, which I don't even know if I knew I was doing that, but I was like, I want to be a singer when I'm older. What kind of singer. Right. That's the question. Yeah. Like, did you want to do musical theater? I think Broadway would have been like a dream come true for me because I don't think that any of this was even a thought. I didn't know how the music industry worked at all. I wasn't like, Oh, I love Justin Bieber. He did X, Y and Z. Like that wasn't something that I think I was even aware of, especially at that age and then. And Long Island's much closer to Broadway than it is to, you know, other spots. Totally. Did you go see shows when you were little? Oh yeah. I saw, I saw a bunch when I was younger. Um, the Adams family on Broadway was like one of my favorites. I've ever seen Wicked, obviously. I saw Avenue Q very young and just, yeah, there's, there was a bunch of stuff that I went to and. Robert Lopez for, has been a guest on this. That's amazing. Um, have you, uh, do you have any desire to do that now? I've been asked that before. I don't know. I don't know. I think I would love to. Um, I think Broadway is such a prestigious thing though in my head that I'm like, could I even, could I even do it? I'm, I'm not sure that I have what it takes to be able to, but maybe, but maybe I just think I look at it with such like high regard that I'm unsure that I would put myself on the pedestal that I can like actually succeed doing that. But I think it'd be really, really cool. And if the right opportunity presented itself, I would totally be down to like train and try my best to do it. Okay. So you're 10 years old, you're, you're not sure you're doing, you're doing voice lessons. Yeah. Um, I remember a voice teacher. This was a little bit later than when I was 10, but it was like, you got to learn to yell because I was like a musical theater guy and I knew how to sing like when I think recitals, I think like recitals east of the Mississippi, which is like, you know, you're going to learn proper like standards. Like that's what it is. When I came out here, I remember going to a recital where each kid came out with like one of these microphones and like had dancers and they were like, come see this recital. And I was like, Oh, this is, Oh, this isn't what I thought a recital was. You know, it was like, when, when you think of recitals or, you know, singing for vocal lessons, well, you're learning in LA is very, very different than how to use your voice on the East coast. Totally. I can only imagine. So you're doing this kind of voice lesson. What's the bridge between that and then, you know, I'm going to start recording and posting pictures or videos of honestly, Christina Grimmie was like one of my biggest inspirations and idols. Like I really grew up loving her watching all of her YouTube videos and her covers. I saw were so incredible. And I, I think that probably at 10, I don't know that the thought had like implanted itself, but then I got braces around a similar time. So I was probably 10 when I got my braces and then I got them off at about 12. And I was like, there's never been a time it's now, you know, like I've got my braces. You don't want to get old and be 13. No, of course not. Time to debut the new teeth in the world. So yeah. So I, I, um, do you know Donnie Clang? Was that again? Donnie Clang is this guy. They're, so he's from long, well, I don't know if he's from Long Island, but I know him from Long Island. Him and this guy, Matt La Porte. Donnie was on this show. What is it? What was it called? Making the band? Yes. Yeah. He was on that show. Yes. Um, they, so they both founded this place called the loft sound studio, um, in Long Island. And it basically was above, I'm correct. Sorry, Matt, if I'm butchering this, but I'm pretty sure the studio was above his wife's dance studio. I think his wife owned a dance studio and in like basically the storage closet upstairs, Matt had transformed this little tiny room into like what was just a sound board, a screen and a literal closet that with a mic in it to record. And my dad, I don't know how he met them originally, but we went in and I vibe with both of them a lot. And, um, Donnie is like an incredible singer. And so he was also giving me like a ton of guidance regarding my voice and like things I should do. And I came up with this idea and I was like, I want to do this Bruno Mars mashup. Like I want to, I loved all of Bruno Mars' music. And so I was like, I want to do my favorite five songs, mash them up into one medley situation. Or sort of things, what I say in the video. So, so then I came to them. I honestly wrote it on my phone. I think I just was listening to a bunch of songs, writing the parts that I thought would flow well. Donnie arranged the music and then we propped up a shitty little camera and did it. I had like a pink bra on because I wanted to make sure everyone knew I was wearing a bra and we recorded it and posted it. And that was literally it. It was just, it was no thought. It was just like I, I remember just being like, I love Christina Grimmie and like I want to do this because she does this. And that was literally crazy. There was nothing else behind it. It wasn't like I was like, oh, I'm going to be famous from this. And I was in math support because I'm still to this day horrible at math, but we've parted ways since then. I don't feel the need to remedy my relationship with math anymore. But back then I was still trying. And so I was in math support classes and I was in the class probably with four other kids, probably two days after it had gone live. And I remember when it hit a thousand views and I was like a thousand people have seen this and it was so mind blowing to me at the time. And that's just a really vivid memory. And then truthfully how it happened. And there's, there's been like, it's funny. There's a lot of discourse online about like how I, how it all happened. Justin tweeted my YouTube video out of nowhere, literally on a random Tuesday, I was like with my friend at a candy store and he just tweeted the videos. And you were 13. Yeah. And then it was like, Justin wants you to be his artist. And there was like a whole other conversation than that was had. So what was that kind of, I mean, you know, first of all, people think that, that it, when you're in the business, every time somebody's like, I want to sign you, they, the image is that somebody puts a contract in front of you and you happen to have your lawyer in your pocket. That's like, you should sign this thing or don't sign this. It's like, it takes if, if I, if you're lucky. I, I've had one offer that actually was like within where the offer came within a week of when they said the offer would come. But even that still takes months of negotiating back. Like in any capacity. To be fair, we were like, we, my family has no ties to the music industry. Even longer. We didn't know anything about it. So like, I don't know. I genuinely do not remember how long the process was, but it was then very fast after the Justin tweet. And it was like this public thing. It was very fast. I think I don't know the timelines because again, it's very blurry to me. So forgive me. But like, then I met Justin. I sang for him, which was traumatizing to be put on the spot. Someone was like, sing for him. I was like, oh, okay. And he's, I remember I have a video of it. He's like sitting on a countertop, kicking his feet. I'm in front of like my favorite human being on earth and I'm standing there shaking, trying to sing fallen by Alicia Keys. And I'm like, what on earth is going on right now? And I genuinely was like, I must have died and I'm in heaven. Like this is not real. As a 13 year old girl, it's not. 13 year old girl in the from long. I think I have a video in front of the, yeah, in front of like the biggest pop star in the world who like, why, why had a cardboard cut out of my room? Mind you, like go scroll down on my Instagram. My first ever post was me saying we met Bieber and it's me kissing a cardboard cut out of him in my room. Sorry, Haley. I'm so sorry. How do you look at this? This is our first photo together. Yeah, that's crazy. Like look at us. We're children. And then I do have the video. Okay, this is just, this is just like, unfortunately, I don't think I have this singing, but this is the first time I ever was in the same room as him and I was losing my mind as one would. I was losing my mind, but yeah, I do have the video of me singing. I can't show you me singing. It's horrible and really embarrassing. I'm like shaking standing there, but anyway, we, and then, but then after we met, he was like super sweet to me. Yeah. Really took me under his wing and like I spent a lot of time with him in those years and and then I signed to Island and then I got dropped from it all when I was 16 and then restarted the jumping. Also, no, no, but also like we'll get to getting dropped as the biggest gift you can get in the music business and people always, you get nervous. You get nervous that for that first, for the first day you get, you get that phone calls really tough. Yeah. But there's nothing. When you're 16, you're like, this is the end of the world. It's such a blessing. It is. Why do you think it's a blessing? Well, I think it's like easy to have the perspective now because I feel like I'm in a place where I'm so proud of where I am today. So I can obviously look back and be like, thank goodness I went through everything that I did when I did, but I think it's a blessing because I just, I don't know. I think I was working with people and in situations that like I wasn't able to fully express myself and I feel like now I'm, I really feel lucky that I'm in a situation that I feel really supported by like my team. And I think a lot of people don't realize too, like how much of an artist is their team. It's, it's, there's, it's so much and it's so important to like work with people that make you feel seen and supported and heard and like even, even my label now, like they are so awesome to me and like really let me have creative control over everything. There's all these conversations of like, you know, I've seen people say it about me where they're like, she's controlled by her label. I'm like, I have a really great relationship with my label and they're really, really good to me. And I'm not saying it's always been like that. I mean, like things, you have to kind of go through things to learn them, but I'm now in a position where I really do feel thankful for like the relationships that I have and the team that I have behind me. One of the, the worst stereotypes in the music business is this idea that male pop stars tend to write their music and female pop stars don't. And in reality, you go down that list of female pop stars. If they're not writers, they're, and they're successful. They're the best curators of their work and they don't necessarily take credit on songs they, they didn't write or whatever. Then the, then the ones who are, you go down the list of, of the top 10 artists, female artists of the last 10 years. Those are probably also the top 10 songwriters, you know, it's, it's, I think, I think that, that permeates sometimes the A&R world too, where they, the assumption is, well, young female can't, can't also be a good writer. Well, that was my issue. I think I got like, when I got started super young, which I honestly, I think, okay, my perspective is like, I try not to fault people too much because I think that this is also probably just like my way of coping. I think that like we all were figuring it out and like maybe did not know how to handle a 14 year old, which to be fair, like they shouldn't have signed a 14 year old if they didn't know how to handle it. But I think now I look back and I'm just like, I don't know that anyone had like bad intentions. I think it just didn't work out. And but yeah, there were so many times that I remember being frustrated because I'm like, you guys signed me singing at last by Edda James. And now you're throwing these demos at me that I have to record and release that I hate. Like my first single melody is like no offense to the people who did write that song. Like I hate it. And I hated it then. I hated it then at 13. I did not like it. And so it was this weird thing I had to go through where I was like releasing songs that I did not feel attached to, which I think then like created this split that I still deal with today of like the me that exists as an artist and the me that exists as a person. When you have music that's out there in the world, but it doesn't really represent who you were at a time or or now. Why not take it down? Because I think it's a part of my story and it is something that I think now I look back on and they feel like pillars of gaining control. And like I feel like I use them so to this day as like, I remember how I felt when I was recording said songs and I don't want to ever feel that way again. And so I feel like I use them as like those markings of I look back and I'm like, wow, I've grown so much since then. Instead of erasing it. I'm like, no, like I that happened that exists. It's part of my story. I can like laugh at it now. But I remember how I felt. Who is now, you know, you said that once you find the artist is their team. It's like the artist sort of is the brand around the company. Exactly. The populated people within the company are managers, publicists, agents, all the people who helped that in those first few years when the label sort of, you know, sort of dictating what you get to record and what you do. What was it that you were missing at the time to combat that maybe just combating what the label system? I think, again, like my I have no we had no connection to the music industry. So I don't think we had anyone to turn to to be like, is this right or wrong? I say we because it really does looking back feel like it was me and my whole family experiencing this like together. And I think we were just so excited and thankful for the opportunity to like be signed by one of the biggest managers in music to be signed on one of the biggest labels. Like what a dream come true for a child who just like always wanted to be a singer. It's so unfathomable. And so I think there was just a lot of gratitude that was overtaking my ability or like desire to fight back, I guess. I just was like, you don't want to cause any any waves or you don't want to upset anybody because these people are taking a chance on you, which then I think manifested in all these other ways like that I I think as I got older, I was like, wait a second, this feels like a little misogynistic. And this feels like something that as a woman, I'm being told I can't well, not even a woman, a girl, I was being told like, don't speak up, just, you know, do your job and look pretty and sing your little songs. And I hated that because that's so not who I am. Like I I like to cause waves. I like to stand up for myself. I'm someone who I will like always speak my mind. And I think that was that felt very silenced, very, very young. And I hated that. What's the moment that you realized that you had power? That's a good question. I think I felt pretty powerless when I got dropped. I think I felt also, I think it was like a feeling of betrayal in a weird way. Like I was really intertwined with a lot of the people that I had worked with since I was so young and you know how it goes where everyone's like, we're family and like you're my sister and da da da da da. And then suddenly they're like, never mind, cut you right off. And that was my first experience with my drop sister. Exactly. And it was really painful as a kid. I was just like, wow, like, and then I think I internalized it and was like, these people don't like me. I'm not good enough. And it just then spiraled into this really negative thing. But I think what made me feel like I had power was still being able to control and connect with people on social media. And that's really how like my social media presence blossomed was because that was, that was mine. It was always mine. I never, no one ever controlled or posted for me on Instagram. And let's just say Instagram because at the time it really was just Instagram. It was always just me. And I think it gave me this sense of community that outside of all the other things felt really out of my control. Whereas this felt like something that like these people were my friends. They were my community. We were building this thing together. I was engaging with them all the time. And that's really how it started for me was just, yeah, like feeling like I could, I have, I have power and it's in this, I guess. You mentioned a few times about, you know, people say that it started with the wrong order of things or who you knew or or it's aware of, you know, all these, these being super self-aware of what the conversation is or what then what you perceive the narrative to be. How affected are you by the public's narrative of Madison Beer? I think now I'm not as affected because I think I've just come into a point in my life where like I know who I am. I know the right people know who I am. And I think I'm tired of being like, please see me. And I, it's just, it feels kind of this, like this void. I yell into pretty often. And so I think now I've let go of it a bit because you really can't control it. And there's going to be so many people. I mean, I could release 100 albums and people will still be like, I thought she was an influencer. I thought she was a tick tocker. And I'm just like, okay, that's totally fine. And something that I don't get. I don't think I get like offended by it. I think it's more so just, I'm like, you're just not informed, which is not your fault. So I don't really blame people, but I'm like, give it a listen, go look it up. It's like, it's easy to figure out, you know? So I think, I think it's a little frustrating, but I try not to let it affect me too much. Because I do really feel like I've garnered such an amazing like community. And that's what matters the most to me. And so I'm like, if you don't know, or you don't care, or you don't like it, then like, that's not my problem anymore, I guess. Yeah. I mean, one of, but it's hard for not to affect me at all. I mean, of course I still, it's still bums me out sometimes where I'm like, damn, I can release so much music and people will still be like, you know, I thought she was just an Instagram girl. And like, yeah, I mean, we, we say, you know, one of the things that are sort of motto for the first nine years of the podcast, or you know, there are, there are millions of singers, there are thousands of artists, but they're only 40 songs per genre at a time. And I think there's this idea of like, you know, the quote industry plant. Yeah. Or what, what it is. And, and at some point, you know, you just released an album that is top 10 not because of that you're the influencer part. Do you know what I mean? Like, cause there are a lot of influencers that release music and we can go down that list. And, and that don't end up in top 10 in music, you know, for an album. And you can name a ton of musician musicians who don't end up in the top 10. So like to not give credit where credits do is, is, you know, that's, that's them. That's not. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think, I think that's the thing that has also helped me stay on that track as well. Cause I'm just like, I, how am I going to sit around and be super bummed that there's, there are like probably millions of people who have the complete wrong idea of me when there are so many other people who have the right idea. And like, I can just focus on that. I can focus on this awesome tour I'm about to go on. I can like focus on the album. And I think that the album, you know, like I'm, it being top 10 is so cool, but I think what makes me really proud is the fact that that doesn't feel like the indication for me anymore. Like I don't, I think because I've never really had a lot of those things, like being high on the charts before, like I, I feel like now where I really define success is the fact that I can feel good about it no matter what the numbers look like. So then when it happens, it's even more cool. Cause I'm like, wow, this happened without me having to conform or change anything. And that is the most rewarding thing. And that's something that I like to talk about. Cause I would hope that like my fans and the people listening can apply that to their lives as well, where it's like, you can, you can be successful while staying true to yourself. You don't need to always like sell out or do what you feel like you have to. Like that's just for me at least that I mean, this album has done the best for me. And this is the album that I was like, I'm throwing all of my, you know, preconceived notions about like what a hit is out the window. And I'm just going to make things that feel good to me. I mean, you've had some songs and we, we haven't gotten to the songs yet, but you know, you've had songs that are, that are, you know, that have 700 million streams, 500 million streams. Like there, it's hard to say that those aren't hits. Well, thank you. But they're hits because like in my, in my way, I guess, like, and that's what's so cool is like, yeah, the streams are amazing. Don't get me wrong. Like I'm not going to sit here in line and be like, I don't care. It's so cool to know that, yeah, 700, 700, something million people have streamed reckless. Like that is crazy because I wrote that song when I was going through a breakup with a boyfriend and was having a hard time and it was about a very real situation and blah, blah, blah. And now like so many people have listened to it. I can't even tell you the amount of people that come up to me on the street and are like, that song got me through a breakup. Like that is so cool. But I wrote a song for my heart and like that's the most part. It's twice the population of the United States. So it's like, you know, when you think about like everybody in the United States listening to it twice, it's nuts. That is very nuts. Tell me about the day you wrote reckless. Oh goodness. I'm trying to think back to it. Yeah, I was going through a breakup and I was having a hard time and there was a situation that happened where like essentially to make a long story short, there was a, you know, it was the classic like the girl I was told not to worry about was like the first girl that he went to when we broke up and it's crazy. It was so long ago. It's hard for me to even like remember all these things. But yeah, it was, it was about that. And I think that was like one of my first real experiences with something like that. And I think I went into the studio and I was just like, I think it might have been so simple that I was just like, how can he be so like reckless? Like, and I kept saying that. And then I think we were like, reckless is a great title and a great song. And then we just went on it and it was really easy. I remember that being like a very easy day. I probably still have the first demo somewhere. I loved also like the idea of it being this like music box toy box sounding thing. And so you hear like the wind up toy box at the start of the song and music box, I guess. And yeah, it was just, it was just a really magical day, but it wasn't something that I was like, oh, this has to be the single. No, I was just like, I just wanted to write the song. How do you, how does it feel when you've, you know, somebody who's cut outside songs and somebody who's written songs, what's the difference in emotion when you record a song that you love that somebody else wrote versus a song that you wrote? Is there a difference? There is a difference, but I don't think one is like inherently better than the other. I think that like, there's songs that I've released that were demos that I've loved recording, like my song, Home With You. I like loved that song so much. The second I got sent it, I was like, this is a great record and I couldn't wait to record it, which is actually how I met Leroy. That was the first time I worked with Leroy. And Ray actually wrote that song. And I just loved it. I thought it was amazing. So there have been times where I've recorded demos that I've enjoyed, but I think there is a deeper emotional connection when it's something that you genuinely went through. And like, I also really like to throw in small personal things in there and lyrics that I know apply to like my situation directly. And so I think it just makes it that much more meaningful, but both are enjoyable. I just don't really cut demos anymore because I love to write music now. Yeah. Was that a business decision or is that a creative decision? No, definitely creative. I think I just, the more I made music, and especially like what I was saying before, like your team is everything that's also the people you make music with. I mean, that's so important. And like you can attest the vibe in a room can change everything. And it's so important to like, yeah, like have a certain vibe, have a relationship with the people that you work with that strong. And I'm very, very lucky to have been working with a lot of the same people for a really long time. And so it feels like we're a family, just kind of messing around. And then we hope to get like a great song out of it. But that is to me the best part where I'm just like, it's so fun. Nothing's better than renting a house for a week with like some of my favorite people in the world and being able to write an album. How cool is that? Yeah, you have to commute all the way to Kinects and One Love's studio after this, which is I think about five houses. Five houses away. Also Tim is sitting right there. Shout out, bro. What makes writing with them and Leroy, you know, those are obviously you have Lucy. Yeah, yeah, we have people that have like- No man, you have people who are a part of this, join this thing. What is special about your crew of songwriters? Yeah, well, so Tim and Jeremy I've been working with for 10 years now, which is like insane to say and I can't believe that it's been that long. They're like both dads now and it's like nuts. But yeah, I just, I don't know. I think that it's such an intimate experience writing music and also like feeling that level of comfortability to really get a song, especially when we're writing these ballads. Like I think to properly communicate what you're going through, you have to be comfortable enough in a room to like be honest. And to be real with you, it helps a lot because they've seen me through like all of my relationships. And so they understand all of the nuance and like all the things that I've gone through and they're like, oh, well, you know, that reminds me of when you went through that with your first boyfriend and that and like they have the context that I don't need to explain. Like, you know, sometimes you feel like you get in sessions and you have to like give your life story again. Whereas with them, like they already, they lived it with me. Like they've been a part of my life through all of my relationships, all of my journeys. Like they've seen me through so much. So that's super valuable. And I think that growing with them and like specifically Leroy, Tim and Jeremy, who have been with me the longest, like, I think we all have really grown as like producers and songwriters because of each other. And I think we've all learned so much from being in rooms together for so many years and like creating now a third album. It's, it's something that I think is like pretty irreplaceable. And I don't see us really ever stopping working together. It's just like a, it's yeah, it just feels like riding a bike. I don't know. Let's go through some of the songs. Yeah, let's see. You know, we talked about reckless, but you and you said you had the demo. I probably do. What does your demo sound like? You want to play it? Well, let's see if I have it. I might have spoken too soon. Let's see from October 23rd, 2020. Just a more simple version. All worthy. Oh, yeah, it was. Oh, crazy. Wow. I forget that. Different vocal. Weird. We, I think we punched all of those words because I think that I was like not able to, we were messing with the chord progression and stuff. Like, I think you can hear that I'm like, right? Like those are punched. Maybe not that one. I think this is slower, maybe two. We already had harmonies down though. Good for us. See, okay. Like, and I, oh, I just skipped forward. I love this song and because like even just listening, I don't listen to it often, but like when I do listen to it lyrically, it's so specific and I'm not going to like indulge on all the details what happened. But like what I was going through, like those lyrics of you, you like went to her house, you guys always left me out. Like that was just how I was feeling. And I think it was just so not over complicated. I was just sitting in that room and I was just like, they always leave me out and we were just like, great, use that, write it. Like, you know, I love when songs don't feel over complicated because I feel like sometimes I can definitely like pick every word apart and I'm like, that's not good enough. And that doesn't make sense and da-da-da. But this song, I just wrote what I was feeling. You know, those first few songs that you had to cut were very cheery poppy pop pop pop songs. And then, you know, once you start getting into like, you know, the stuff that you were doing on your own time, you know, post getting dropped. For like support, yeah. Or as she pleases even, yeah. Like you start getting darker. Totally. Is it easier for you to write dark songs than happy songs? Yes, for sure. I think I'm also just like, I always find myself to be someone that sways a bit dark and I talk, like whenever I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm like, what, so what happened in your childhood? You know, I'm that kind of person. So I think that that's like, it's easy for me with music too. It's honestly hard for me with, with Lockett, it was kind of a challenge because I wanted it to feel like a brighter album that was like happier. And that was really difficult because I'm like, I want every song. If it was my way, I'm sure I would have an album full of ballads because that's what I find to be the easiest to write and the most authentic to me or like the dark stuff. Why did you end up going back into the label system after getting dropped? Um, great question. NNPA is our lead sponsor yet again. What is the National Music Publishers Association? What do publishers have to do as songwriters anyway? Well, unlike artists who can be unsigned artists, there is no such thing as an unsigned writer. You can be a self-published, a co-publisher, a published writer. Publishers only make money if songwriters make money. So NNPA goes and fights for you. They go to Congress. They go and support the community. They fight DSPs to get you paid more. That's what they do. They fight for you and they fight for this podcast. So thank you for fighting for songwriters NNPA. Thank you for fighting for us too. Okay, so I use Splice and I'm pretty sure every producer who listens to this uses Splice, but if you don't, you need to start using Splice. They have the most incredible licensing library that you can go through for any kind of samples you can think of, but they take care of their original creators. In fact, they just came out with a beta version of their AI suite. Unlike its competitors that we know that may not take care of the original creators. Every time you use Splice's AI tool, it triggers a licensing event for those original creators. So there's not a better company that I can think of right now that you can use, where you can use the efficiency of AI and also know that you're taking care of the creators. And that is Splice. Why did you end up going back into the label system after getting dropped? Great question. I think that it was just, it was a couple of years that I was independent. And I honestly really enjoyed being independent. I think it was a really cool experience and you asked earlier about feeling like you had power. I think it was also about building myself up to feel like I had power again. I didn't need to be in the label system necessarily. And then I think it started posing the questions of like, do you need to be in the label system to be successful? Is that something that is necessary? Like there were so many questions that I think I had. And so I was independent for a while, like three years I think. And then I just kind of started making my way where like there was people wanting to meet me, which felt cool. You know, it wasn't like I was going there being like, please let me in. They were like, we want to talk to you and get to know you. And I went to Epic and I think I just probably had a great meeting and enjoyed people 2019. Going into a new record deal right before COVID. Did that change how you, you know, how did COVID affect your music career? You know, again, I'm really bad with talking about it because I think I don't remember things very clearly regarding timeline because we all got like confused with the timeline regarding COVID. But I remember releasing stained glass in lockdown, right? Am I tripping? I think stained glass came out in lockdown. I don't know. Let me see. Let me see. Look at it. Look at it. It may have been before. I mean, I don't know. Is that before Life's War? Because I just remember being in Long Island, like in lockdown, promoting it on TikTok. Which is like a new way of promoting music. But anyway, yeah. So like my album Life Support came out in 2021. Yeah, I think. Yeah, that's correct. Yes. Thank God. And yeah, I think that it was like still lockdown-ish. And I think my first tour date of the Life's War tour was literally the first day that things got lifted. Is that scary? Yes, absolutely. We were going into it being like if things don't get lifted, you are going to have to incur like all of these costs that were rehearsals and building the stage and like doing all these things. So it was like taking a risk. But obviously, thankfully, it worked out. But it was scary. And then it was just, I guess, like a little, it was hard because I feel like I'd worked for so long on this album and then lockdown happened. And I kind of released it like during that time. And it felt kind of, yeah, it felt weird. You know, again, like I meet you in a studio and then you have, you know, you control your social media and you can promote from TikTok and you go record another album in a studio. You do more stuff in a studio. But when you get a billion plus streams on an album or an EP, you know, there's now an audience that wants to see you live. And not everybody who's is, you know, a studio person wants to perform live. Do you enjoy performing live? I do. I think that touring is something you kind of have to figure out. And I don't know that you can just like jump into your first tour and be like, oh, this is great. It's perfect. I think there's kinks that you figure out. And this is now going to be my, I guess, technically my fourth real tour. I would say this is like my third real tour because my EP tour was like very small and not really whatever. But it was great. No hate. Love, loved her. But probably this is like, yeah, this is my fourth like real tour. And I think now I'm just figuring out like what I need, what are non-negotiables, how can I sustain it? What are non-negotiables for you on tour? My bus being a bus that I love is my number one thing because I just like, I'm a big like smell space. I need to feel safe in my air. And like you're on your bus every single night for sometimes upwards of six months. And so it's like you're renting a house basically and you want to rent a house that you like. And so I've made the mistake in the past where I've been like, oh, no, it's fine. Like book whatever. And then I'm miserable because I'm like, this doesn't feel like home at all. You have to kind of trick your brain into thinking you're still home in a sense. And like, I think that's really difficult to do when you're on a bus every single night and you're driving across countries and state lines. And so for me now I know like, okay, even if it's just my star projector that I have in my room every night, a candle that smells like my bedroom and a blanket that I know and love and a couple of stuffed animals, like it actually makes the difference. It sounds silly, but it really makes the difference. I also know that like I need a shower on my bus, need one, need to be able to like jump on the bus, rinse the show off basically and get in bed. Like there's just little things that I need and I know that now, but it takes touring a couple of times to know that. Do you like being on tour or do you miss home? Do you get homesick? Well, it's like that like back and forth where like I go on tour and I'm like, oh my god, this is the best thing ever, but I really can't wait to go home and like see my pets. And then I get home and I'm like, okay, I can't wait to go back on tour. So it's kind of a constant back and forth, but what pets do you have? Thank you for asking. I have two cats and a dog. What are their names? Thank you for asking again. Mookie is my cat that I found on the side of the road the night the watchers, the Dodgers won the World Series two years ago. And Maple. That's an appropriate name. I get it. Yes. And honestly, like I'm not a baseball fan. But when in Rome, you have to thank you. Thank you for understanding. So yeah. So and she also like has a bit of a cow marking. So she Mookie Moo. It all works. You call her Moo. I do call her. I call her a lot of things. Me, suddenly as a new one. Oh, interesting. Yeah. When I'm up in her face, I'm like me. Yeah. So I get that. Do you have cats? I had a cat many years ago and then I had a dog, but now I have human children. And maybe we'll add a dog at some point again. But currently, I am the lowest on the priority list in my household. So I'm just I'm just trying to I'm the closest to a pet right now. OK. You know, I'm the thing everyone climbs on. About it. So I'm currently the house pet. I understand. But yeah. And then I have Presley, who is my my dog, who's just the best sweetest thing in the world. It's hard to be away from them. I actually brought. I mean, you you fed the coyote outside of our house. I did. Out of our studio. So like you're definitely an animal lover. That makes sense. I know. I I I really love animals and it's actually been something I've been struggling with because I'm like three months away from leaving for tour. And I've been having a little bit of a hard time thinking about leaving my animals because Presley, like in theory, could come. Yeah. He came on my U.S. tour last time and it was totally fine and great. And maybe he'll come again. But what kind of dog? A Bernadoodle. But it's a lot on them. It's like stressful for them. And I feel bad and like they're in their home. No. And he's in the bus and he's like getting tossed around. He doesn't know what's going on. And I feel kind of guilty and the cats I could never bring because Mookie was an outdoor cat and she's just waiting for her chance to get back out there. And so I would never bring her and then Maple bless her heart is just the scaredest of the scaredy cats. I've been saying that about Maple for a long time. Maple. She's you and everyone else. My brother doesn't believe she exists because she hides behind my chair in my room every time he comes over. He's like, I don't think you have this cat. I think you make a lot of money. Rider's got a sense for Maple. Yeah. I've been saying that also for a long time. So, you know, that first album that comes out under Epic is like it's kind of like a wild success, like a comparative everything before that. It's not that the other stuff wasn't. No, but it's okay. But it sort of like puts up, you know, you have multiple songs over a half a billion streams, you know, which is like, it's still a lot, you know. It's crazy. Do you are your expectations being met at that point in your career? Numbers wise or just like in general? I don't know. I don't know. Like you're putting on an album. Why? Why do you put out albums? That's a great question. I think I put out albums because I love albums and I love to listen to them and I love music. And I think music has just changed and touched my life in like so many ways. And I, it's what I turn to. It's what I listen to when I'm in the best mood ever. Like nothing influences my life like music does genuinely. I feel that way. And so I think that's probably why I release it is to hopefully touch people in the same way that it's touched me. But yeah. Silence Between Songs is the second album you release, you know, with Epic, right? Yes. You know, again, scratching a hundred billion streams overall. It's these are, these are real like heavy music numbers. Yeah. You have a few songs on it that drive a lot of that, but Home to Another One is, is. Love that song. Is, is the sort of the song from maybe the key song from that. Tell me about Home to Another One. I love that song so, so much. That was another song that I wrote like a very specific time in my life. And it was about this like fractured relationship and basically that's like you call me baby, but I know you go home to another one essentially saying, you know, you're playing two people here. And this was, yeah, this was a very real situation. And it seems like you've been in some, you've been in some tough relationships, man. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. Is that from being. I got good songs out of it. So yeah, there you go. Whatever. Is that from, from, I mean, is it from being part of a divorce family? Is it like where, where does that come from? I've said that I've, you know, you, you kind of gravitate towards what feels like home to you. And so who knows? Maybe that is the reason, but I think I'm weeding that out. I'm in a very healthy loving relationship now. So thank God for that. But yeah, I mean, I also, it's like being a teenager, you know, like I think we all go through those ups and downs. But I have been in some situations that are, I guess, out of the ordinary, but I don't know. Maybe they're not. My mom grew up in a household with divorced parents. And I think that's what made her a really loyal wife and mother was because she wanted the opposite of that. Of course. You know, so it's like, you know, you, you'll follow, you either follow the cycle or you break it. You know, you could, there's some, some choice in there, you know. Absolutely. You were saying that you're in a, in a loving relationship, but then when you were saying that it's nice to be able to have stuff to write about breakups. Is it hard to, to, um, you know, squeeze stuff to write about when you're in a happy relationship? Or is it nice to be like, ah, here's a shiny album? Totally an interesting thing that I feel like I'm now like navigating. I think I've like gone through, you know, ebbs and flows with, with people in real life situations. And I've written about real things I've written about. I mean, I have a song called Tyler Durden, which is like from Fight Club. Like I've written about many types of things. So I think it's not always super representative of what I'm actually going through in that exact moment, but it's been cool. It's been cool to also like explore. I've written love songs in the past. Like I've obviously felt positively about people I've dated as well, but like, I think what really gets me going is, is the breakup songs and is like the heartbreak song. So yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting thing, but I've lived enough that I can squeeze it out. Yeah. I mean, and the reality is just one of the cool parts of being a, um, But it is hard. Sometimes I'll play a song for my friends and they're like, aren't you like super in love? And I'm like, it's not, it's not about my right now. You know, it can also be something where it's writing about the position your parents were in. Yeah, totally. Writing from being like this is. No, like you're thinking about a situation you know very familiarly and then you're like writing about it for sure. It's weird that music has to be from a fans perspective is almost always this, this idea that it's nonfiction. Right. And that you're not supposed to play characters or you're not supposed to tell stories. And that to me, the great American pie is a story. Totally. And there's so many of those. There's so much. Like Stacey's love. Like there's endless things. There are, there are millions and millions of, of, of, of this is what it was. A troubadour would tell you stories. It wasn't all stories about myself. Exactly what they're going up, going through. Yeah. I think that's, it's a, yeah, it's a funny thing. Not everyone, I mean, even when I was releasing this album, I saw people online being like, oh my God, she wrote this about her boyfriend. I'm like, I wrote this a year before I met him. Yeah. Like this isn't like, I don't think also people really know how long. Do you feel like you have to explain and apologize to people online? Yes and no. I don't, I don't feel like I have to. But sometimes if I get the opportunity to, I'm like, hey, let me set the record straight. But only, I try to only really do it when it feels like important enough to. I think I've gotten better as I've gotten older, just like deciding what is worth my energy and my time because it's precious, man. Yeah. And it's hard to get it back. So I've spent enough years of my life, and I do mean years of my life, scrolling aimlessly through what people have to say about me that I now just, I try to step back a little bit. Like I don't have Twitter on my phone. I try not to, when I see a negative TikTok about myself, I try to program my brain to scroll right past it, like not open the comment section, but it's hard. I'm also just like a 26 year old girl that is human and so it can be difficult, but I try not to give my attention to it as much anymore. You know, before we get to lock it, you know, I want to ask about, showed me because it's an interpolation. It was playing right when I walked in. I heard you guys playing a great song. Interpolations are, you know, when somebody takes classic song and they rewrite, you know, part of it, the hook, whatever it is. What about that song? Why the interpolation? How did that song come to be? I love music from that era in time, and I think it's just like, it's just really magical. And I think probably again, because it doesn't feel like they were trying to make hits, at least I think it was just more so like coming from a genuine place. And that song specifically, the second I heard those like string swells and that like, like that weird bend I just fell in love. And I was like, I need this on a song desperately yesterday. And so I just figured it out and we, yeah, we made our own thing with it. And it was just super fun. I'd never done that before. So it was like a really fun experience as well, kind of honoring a song that I mean, it was a huge song, but a lot of people, I think, don't know it today. And so I love kind of giving it like maybe a second life in a sense. And it's just, it's super fun. If you're a younger self could see you now, you know, what do you think would surprise her most? Probably how calm I am, I think. Interesting. I think she'd be like, I think she'd be like, I don't care about the musical wins. I think like she would probably look at me and be like, whoa, you seem very put together in a sense, like put like mentally. And I think I just, I don't know. I feel like I was someone who just always felt really, and I have my days still, but I think mentally I've always felt very like all over the place. I've struggled with, you know, endless mental health things. And I think I just feel like I'm in a place where I, I feel like I, I don't want to say I feel healed because I think healing is something that like you continuously do. But I feel like I'm on this path of like healing and I feel like I really know who I am now. I don't feel like I have to prove myself to people. I think the right people see me and I just, I've made peace with that. And I think that that reflects itself now. Like my nervous system doesn't feel spiked all the time. I don't feel constantly anxious. And again, like I said, I do have my moments and things make me feel crazy once again, but like I do think in general, I feel like I'm at a place where I feel pretty peaceful in general. And I think that would be what she's like, whoa, that's us. What the hell? You got to be, you got to go to the Grammys this year. I did. That's cool. It is cool. Did you make it? Did I, like have you made it? Did I win anything? I don't know. Oh, is that, is that what you need to? Oh, what are you asking? I'm just asking like as a human, like you get, you get nominated. Oh, is that like my thing that I've made it? Are you asking? Yeah. It once was, I think. I once was like, if I am ever near the Grammys, I will feel like I've made it. But I think now that I've been nominated twice, I think it's so cool. I just, I don't know. I think I'm just like, my goalpost has shifted to the way I feel more so than like the trophies I hold, not to be cheesy AF, but that is my truth. But I would love one. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I've lost both times and I think it'd be really awesome to win. It of course would be like a dream come true. But I just, I think I just more so have like removed the idea that like I am a failure if I don't do X, Y and Z. Because that used to be how I was where I was like, I'll feel like I made it when I do blah, blah, blah, where it's like, there's so much more that I think like I'll feel like I feel like I make it every time I step out on stage and I see a sold out crowd. Like those are the moments that are really so moving. But yeah, obviously if I want to grant me, I would probably ball my eyes out and not be able to speak. So I'm talking a big game, but I think. My friend Tommy Kale said to me that success is managing expectations. And that has always stuck with me. It's just like this ability to, I don't want to say like being able to move the goalpost one way or the other, just something that is, that you can control is a whole other thing. Totally. Then, then, you know, trying to, you know, you can't choose, you can't choose whether people are going to stream a song or vote for the grant. Whether people are going to vote for you. No. Like all those things. Totally. You know. But let's talk about this album. This is also the first, you know, it's the first time you have a top 10 album on, you know, Billboard 200. That's, that's a huge achievement. Why now? Well, thank you first of all. And I think now, I don't know. And I think it's really rewarding that it's, it's happening with the album that I was the most free with writing and just like the most, I feel like experimental and I wasn't really bounding myself to like these things that I think in the past I had done. I think, I think I just went into it like I just want to release something that I'm proud of and that I love. And so it's cool that it's happening now. I was, I was talking to Maddie Anofsky earlier who you wrote, Bitter Sweet With. And I said that you were coming in. Shout out Maddie, one of the best writers in the game. She's amazing. And, uh, Bitter Sweet The Day I Met Her. So, yeah, crazy. That shows you. But I said, what was it like, you know, working with medicine? Just, you know, and she said, one of the coolest things about you is that you come in the room and you know what you want, you know, that you are, you are the driver in the room. Cool. That's sweet of her. Thanks. Yeah. And I mean, a lot of artists come in the room and our job is to, you know, be the motivating force and to bring in the ideas, to bring in the concepts, bringing the vibe, whatever it is. And hopefully it strikes a chord with them. And, you know, yeah, that's interesting. I've never really had that. But you don't have to work with a lot of other artists. Yeah, that's interesting. And that's what it, that's what most of it is. It's, it's, it's not every day that you have, um, that you have somebody come in as an artist who knows what they want. What was the day like when you wrote Bitter Sweet? Yeah. So it was actually funny. Tim had a session with Maddie and John and I kind of like, I think I literally woke up that day and was like, I need to write a song today. And like, I just felt like it was very urgent. And I don't really do well writing songs alone. I kind of just like, I'm very easily distracted. And so I feel like it's not like the most productive thing when I'm by myself. So I think I remember I called Leroy, I want to say he was at a town. And then I called Tim and he was like, I have a session and I was like, well, I'm out of luck. And then Tim hit me back and was like, do you want to come to like my session? Like they're two awesome writers and like we can work together. And I just usually like, I just haven't worked with a ton of new people. Like I, like Lucy was the most recent addition. And she came in on Silence Between Songs. So like I've been working with her for a long time now as well. And it's just, I don't know. I feel like sometimes, especially when I'm, I know that I want to write something really vulnerable and when I'm going through a lot, it's a little bit scary for me to go into a room and be like, here's my whole traumatic experience that I'm currently dealing with laid out on the table. Nice to meet you, by the way. Like that feels sometimes a little bit weird. So I was like, you know what though? Like if Tim's saying they're cool, like they're cool. So I went in there and yeah, literally went in guns of blazing and I was like, this is what's going on. This is what's happening. Oh my God. I think I probably was crying to them explaining everything that was, that was, that was happening in my life, which was like a very intense emotional world when break up and we just got after it. And it like happened so easily and the four of us worked together really, really nicely. And they were just really cool and let me feel free to, and then yeah, I did come in with like some references that I liked and some sounds that I wanted. And it's just the best when that, when it happens like that. And yeah, it was just, it was just a great day. It's a cool song. Thanks. When I tell people about what it's like to be a songwriter, I usually say it's like walking into a room of people you don't know, sing at them and then ask what they think. Exactly. Like nobody outside of the music world can comprehend how weird that is. It's so weird. But it is no different. Like nice to meet you. Like here's my life story. Let's write a song about it. It's weird. Here's my life story. It goes like this. Yes, exactly. And it's like, it's so weird. It's so weird. And again, like other songwriting, I always think it's funny when people have an ego in songwriting because you're like, yo, you sing. Like you just came in here, you can't act like you're like super strong and like this. You're like, no man, you have to be. That's probably partially why I work with the same people too, because like none of us have this ego thing. And I think none of us would even allow that to be remotely in the room. And I just, to be real with you, I cannot stand it. Like I've obviously met some like, not going to name them like huge producers or songwriters that like have like a billion hits and I'm just like, okay, enough with you. Like I can't with the just goodness. It's just also like we're not, we're not like rocket scientists here. We're making music and it's amazing, but I'm just like, relax a little. Okay. Yeah. Let's tone it down slightly. I think the writing with the smaller crews, which has been, you know, it's becoming, it's becoming cool again to not be in the, you know, it's really hard to have a comprehensive album, a cohesive album that has songs from all over the place. It's just very, very difficult. It's hard. You know, and when you think of the albums that you like most, it's often as much smaller crews. Totally. I think there's, you know, it's got to be that thing where you can come in and also just bomb for a day and know that when you come back the next day, they'll still be there. Absolutely. You know. Absolutely. It's very, very crucial. Not that I ever write a bad song, but if I did, I would want, you know. Figuratively speaking. Yeah. Just in the off chance, I had a bad day. Let's do some rapid fire questions. Okay. Okay. What's advice you'd give a 13 year old version of you? If you met them today. I was going to be funny and say turn the camera off, but it's not, I don't mean that. I would say maybe don't be as trusting to everyone, but again, it's hard. It's hard because it's like, I love where I am today, so I wouldn't change anything, but like I would probably just be like, don't be as trusting of people. I think I just like was so bright eyed, bushy tailed, like, oh my God, everyone's so nice and great. And I didn't really think about like what was going on behind the scenes and that situation. So probably I would just be like, don't be as trusting. I think I still would have been like follow your dreams because I wouldn't want to take that from anyone, but I would have just been like maybe manage your expectations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little. That's success, man. Managing expectations. You know? That's the deal. Yeah. It's also like, it's a weird thing when, if you're on the label side, putting yourself in their shoes, you sign someone who's 13 years old who's never released music before, you're going to have them cut songs that are going to come from hit writers. Yeah, that also seemed like songs with 13 year olds should sing. Totally. And by the time you record them, you're 14. So then now they're dated. So you're trying to chase this thing. So to get dropped at 16 and having three years of recording songs that were already outdated before you ever got to release it and that are supposed to identify with you when you didn't write them. Exactly. It's like. Well, then they're looking at me going, kid, what do you mean you want to sing a song like At Last by Edda James? That would be ridiculous if you tried to release a song like that. So it's like, it was this, yeah, that's why I say like, I shouldn't probably be so gracious towards everyone, but I think I do look back and I just don't hold resentment and I don't, I'm not someone that believes in like carrying hatred through your life. And I'm just like, you know what, I think we all were just, I just shouldn't have been signed that young. That's the truth, the situation. Yeah. And that's really how I feel about it. So I'm always say, you know what I would say to my 13 year olds is just maybe wait a couple of years, go enjoy summer camp and being a kid for a couple more years. It's not going to hurt you. Did you miss out? I did. No prom, no homecoming, which people might like watch this and roll their eyes and be like, okay, girl, you were like in LA making music, but like those are important moments in your life. And I think like moments that really do shape you like, I got pulled out of school in seventh grade. I was homeschooled and it was very isolating. I didn't have like that community of your high school friends. I then didn't go to college. Did you have any friends? Not for a long time. When did you meet your first friends? In LA. A lot of my first friends in LA were my brother's friends that I would hang out with a lot, like a lot of his friends. And you know, they were like three, four years younger than me. So it was kind of difficult sometimes. But then I sort of like was starting to have a little bit of a group, but I don't feel like I had many friends for a while. I'd probably say from like a seventh grade to probably ninth grade. I feel like I was pretty isolated. Man, that's tough. I felt like on my own. Yeah, but it was okay. I mean, I think what's weird about that. I made friends with my producers and writers and stuff, but I do feel like I do feel like I missed out on a lot of ways. But those producers were 15 years older than you. Yeah, some of them. So it makes you grow up differently. I do feel like I grew up fast. But I think I just that's the part that I mourn a lot where I look back and I'm like, even when I watch like college football games, I'm like, that just looks so fun to be in those stands and with your friends and like having a pregame. And again, like people probably are rolling their eyes being like, it's not that great, I promise. But it's it's hard when you haven't experienced it. Like I do feel like I'm there. There are things that when I sit around and I like and with a bunch of my friends and they're like, Oh, remember that time in high school? Oh, remember that thing you did in college? And I'm just like, I was crazy. Those people in 20 years from now are going to be like, remember that thing in high school? Remember that thing in college? Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like a lot of not not everybody, but there are a lot of people where that's the you know, I mean, that's a cliche, right? Yeah, I don't know. It's weird. It's like, I'm sure and then I'm sure if I did stay in school and I went to college, I would have been like, what if I was in LA right now making music? So who's to say but the idea that you had to, you know, I got to write a lot of music. Nobody heard. I got to write a lot. I got to do music videos that didn't end up on YouTube because they were done before YouTube was really a thing, you know? It's like, I got to do things that you nobody can find, you know? And growing up where every piece of music almost literally every piece of music you ever did is findable. Oh yeah. Then how do you find videos from like when I did like school of rock after school? I'm like, how did you get this? I was 12 singing at a random pub in Long Island. Like how on earth did you find this video? How does somebody develop an artistry when they're being critiqued from song one? Isn't that right? Yeah, it's been weird and tough for sure. And it's been a weird thing to navigate where I'm like, I've been wrong from the jump according to many people. What do you think? What's the right, oh you mean because they've just been critiquing me? Yeah, things they've said. They've always been like, it's not good enough, it's not this, it's not right. And then I feel like it's just this constant thing. That's why now I'm at a place where I just let go of all that and I should make music selfishly. And I'm like, I want to make stuff that I enjoy because if I enjoy it and no one else does, that's fine. But yeah, it was hard to be critiqued, super young all the time. Yeah, I mean. Especially just trying to figure out who you are. Considering your song Selfish has 500 million streams, I think you won. Thank you. You know, the, what's the lowest part of your career? You know, it's weird when people ask me that because my life doesn't really exist without my career. And so they're very intertwined in the sense of like, I got signed at 12, I was alive for less time than I've now been assigned to artist prior. You know what I mean? So it's like a weird thing to think about. So it's like, when you ask me what has been like my love, my career, I think of like, what was the worst time in my life because they've just always been swimming together. And I probably would say like around maybe like 17 to 21, those years were pretty dark. And like, I don't know, like, can I chalk that up to just being a teenager growing? And I think it's pretty normal to struggle. But then I think there was just a lot just compounding and grappling with the internet and relationships and just, just all of it. I mean, there was a lot that that went on in those years for me. And I became like really suicidal and I wasn't sure that I like was even equipped to live let alone make music. So I just, it was just so, it was just a really hard time for me. And I think that that also then informed a lot of what you hear on life support, which if you really listen, like that's the stuff I'm talking about. And yeah, it's a struggle. It's hard. I think I just got to a point where I was like, did I ruin my life? Like was this, and then I go down the spiral of like, was this ever what I really wanted to do? Was I conditioned to thinking this is what I wanted to do? Because it was so early. Like I went through a pretty intense reflection period where I was just like, I don't know what's going on and I'm feeling really overwhelmed by that. I just am proud of that little girl and I, I'm very, very thankful for her getting me here because I feel like that's, it's cool. And I try to honestly, like I try to honor, I talk about her because it does feel like that's like a completely different version. But I, I try to like honor it also because I, I don't want to not talk about what I went through because I feel like I deserve to talk about it and be like, that was very real. And it was, it was close to killing me. And also like just, you know, not to like fully take a left turn, but like I'm someone who is just big on like anti-bullying and hate and it's something I'm very passionate about. And like I hope to in my life to continue to be like an advocate for all that stuff. And there's too many lives lost every year because of that. And we are all living for the first time. We're all trying to figure out what we're doing here. And especially at those young ages, like you are battling so much within your self to then go to school or to go online and have people just affirm all of the negative things you already think about yourself. It's really difficult. And so yeah, it's just, it's something that I went through and I'm proud to be on the other side of it now. I don't think people realize how brave you have to be to be an artist. Yeah. Especially now with social media. There's a whole other layer on top of it where it's like, I mean, obviously, you know, it's like so many artists complain about the whole like tick talk of it all where it's like the labels or whoever is like, you got to promote. But even if your label isn't telling you you have to promote on tick talk, you feel like you have to because you're like, you're missing out on such a big opportunity and it's, it can be difficult. And then you put yourself out there in the comments or like, this is horrible. You suck. Delete this. Like it's, it's difficult. And it does take, it does take bravery. And I, like I said, I really do applaud my very brave younger self because I think now I could handle it and I am equipped for it, but I wouldn't have this thick skin if it wasn't for everything I had been through. So she's the one who really braved the storm. What do you currently do to prioritize your mental health? I try to stay off of it as much as I can. I'm still human and I doom scroll on tick talk, you know, no less than the next person, but I kind of just, my goodness, isn't it weird to think about like, why am I addicted to consuming media of other people and other things all the time? People you'll never meet. Why? People you don't care about. What is that in our brains? Like what, what is it? I don't know. I mean, we're reptiles that are just like over, you know, like we're not meant to, we're not meant to communicate with more than 200 people in your lifetime. Oh, geez. You know, let alone like your clan is supposed to be 200 people. That's what it was. And so, you know, anybody beyond that, you're starting to add like a random that doesn't, that you won't really remember and you get into a thousand people. It's, you're not meant to perform for a thousand people in the night. That didn't happen until there was amplification. Oh my goodness. Do you know what I mean? Let alone. And we're not talking about 10,000 people. This is my thought process, by the way, all every night. We're not talking about 20,000 people. I lay awake at night just thinking about this. That's when you say that, when I was like, oh, you know, reckless 750 million streams or whatever it is, 800, I don't know. That that's twice the population in the U.S. that even trying to, as a songwriter, explain to my parents when I was like, no, no, you don't understand. Like I sold as many albums as the city of Buffalo this week. Like the city of, you know, this song is so big. It's like it's been consumed by the entire Western Hemisphere. I'm scared. Like when you start saying that kind of stuff, it's like, it's hard to wrap really, it's more not made to wrap your head around these. No, you can't visualize 700 million people. No, but what you can do is when you play in front of an audience of 200 people and they're all singing every word, why that, why that affects you, you can only be so happy. That doesn't, I don't know that that affects you a whole lot more than a thousand people or 2000 or 20,000 people because you're only really able to get so happy. Totally. There is a threshold. There's a threshold. It's, it's weird. It's a weird thing. I mean, I, I've done like plenty of intimate small shows and whatnot, but like I, I think that for me, when I, when I try to dissect that and like, I, I'm like, okay, so why would, you know, Madison Square Garden make me break down more than let's say, you know, the first venue there that I played, which I think was Gramercy Theater, I'm not sure, but it's like, I don't, I don't think that for me at least it's necessarily about like the, I think we'll obviously also New York, like MSG is the thing I always looked forward to and was like, I hope I get to do that one day. So that is alone, emotional. And then I think when I think about the amount of people that actually took that time out of their day to like purchase a ticket, then plan for the show, then call a car, then get to the venue, wait in line. That to me is a lot of commitment and effort to support me. And so I think that's what makes me like very emotional about it. But I think you're right. Like the actual performance aspect is the same, but I think it does kind of shake me where I'm like, wow, there were 15,000 people woke up today and were like, I'm going to a Madison beer concert. That's crazy talk. Well, you were the, you were the college football team. You know, you were the thing they went, you know, you're the, I'm getting my college experience after all. That's crazy. Hey, you're performing at the Victoria's Secret. Yes, I did. He did. All right. It happened. That's cool. Thank you. It was really, it was cool. Maybe I'll do it again. Maybe you're, you just manifested in a way that you didn't even know you were doing it. Why was that cool? I just grew up watching it. So it was something that I was like, I grew up being like, damn, you know, to every girl. And I was like, I just hope I can even go and see that in person one day, let alone be a prop in the background. And I was performing. It was very awesome. And like some of my favorite artists ever have performed there. And it was something I grew up watching. And I remember vividly like the carpets and the looks people wore and the outfits they wore on stage should like actually being a part of the show. Like that was very, very cool. I'm, I'm proud of you for this album because I think it's like you, you dove deep into some, you know, musically into something that is, it continues to look like you are honing in on who you are as an artist. And I think meeting somebody at 13 in a recording studio and having to navigate the pluses and minuses of social media, the opinions of all the music you've had to record, whether you wrote it or not. It's, there are very few people that you can talk to that can relate to that. But there, there, there are lots of people in this industry that have seen the journey and are rooting for you. So thanks for doing this podcast. Oh my God, of course. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, we'll, we'll, we'll do it for the next album too. We'll do it for the next Victoria's Secret show. Yeah. Cause it's going to happen. Not at all. There it is. Thank you. All right. Thanks for doing it. Yeah. Of course. There you go.