Ryan Coogler

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. This is a, this is a good one. We were thrilled when this person wanted to talk to us. Ryan Kugler, the incredible director, sinners, black panther, creed, fruit fill, station, just so everything, all the good things. And we, we, we're going to talk about so many things today. We're going to talk about football. We're going to talk about Jurassic Park. We're going to talk about how vampires are sexier than zombies. And we are going to get in, in the minutiae of the beautiful film sinners that is up for all the awards and should win all the awards. So I loved this conversation with Ryan. And, and I can't wait for you to hear it. And we always start these episodes by speaking to somebody who knows our guest, who gives me a question to ask them and speaks well behind their back. And joining me today is Ludwig Jorinson. Ludwig is a, well, just the most preeminent composer has made music on all the films that you love. And, and makes, you know, is a record producer. And, and, and it just is so super talented. And they, he and Ryan have been working together forever. So we're going to join Ludwig. And I'm going to try out a little bit of my Swedish. Hello. This episode of Good Hang is presented by Nespresso for those who never compromise on their morning rituals, especially their coffee ritual. Nespresso's new Virtuo up makes your first cup irresistible. With a three-second start, easy open lever and dedicated coffee creations mode button. It's even easier to brew bold coffee over ice or milk. It's your coffee your way. Nespresso. Shop now exclusively at nespresso.com and use code Amy to receive a set of lumay coffee mugs when you spend $50 or more while supplies last. Brò tak. Ha, yeah. What's, how can you pronounce swanska? I, I know you've done a lot of swanskulls, but how do you, uh, are in connection with Sverige? Yes. My brother lives in stock soon. Okay. So nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this. Yeah. Where, where are we talking to you from right now? Uh, I'm in, uh, my studio in LA, Los Angeles. Excellent. And are you working on something right now? Yes. I'm working on new, new projects. New. Can you tell us what it is or a secret? No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm in the world of Chris, Chris Nolan right now. So we'll just, yeah, that's, that's taking up my time. And it's really fun. Well, we're talking you, we're talking around Kugler today. We're thrilled to talk to him. I'm a huge fan and I'm really excited. And one of the things I've been learning as I've been getting to know him is how dedicated he is to the people he works with and how he has really long relationships with the people that he works with. And you two met in at USC together? Yeah. We met at USC 2000, early 2008, I believe. Yeah. What was your first impression of him? Do you remember meeting? Yeah. Of course. Uh, I was, when I first moved to LA, I moved, I lived in Culver City and every, everyone in America told me that you need, you need to move, you need to get a car, right? You need to have a car. But I thought I'll sell Americans, they don't, they don't get the idea of walking, right? So, but I quickly understood that like the bus does, does doesn't come. So, so I moved to USC to live close to campus. I could walk from and I ended up, I ended up moving into like a fraternity house. If that was only for grad students. And it literally felt like I didn't know what fraternity was at the time. So like, I literally felt like I moved into a American pie movie. Yeah. So one night we had a party, Ryan came over and we ended up playing pool together. And hi, he had, and I remember Ryan had these super long locks, you know, down to his back. And kind of, you know, kind of muscle muscle in a way, because he had just, you know, he had just come from football. He played football for a sax-state, we're college. So he, you know, so that, and, and we started talking, playing pool. And then I remember specifically talking about music. And he, well, he had a lot of knowledge about, we talked about Swedish artists. Yeah. And that's kind of what we kind of started boning over music. And then that translated into film. And so, we, yeah, we just, we were just kind of college kids in the beginning, started just hanging out at parties and talking about music and film. Was there a moment when you decided we're going to kind of work together forever? Like, you know, it's one thing to like each other's taste. But sometimes people work a certain way that doesn't kind of connect with the way you like to work. How do you two like to work together? And why does it work? The first score I did was for a little feature, or the student film he had called Locks. And I, I played guitar on that. And he was like, he was, it was just so funny because I remember his reaction when he first heard his, my music for his little short film. And he was like blown away. He was like, Oh, my God. I can't believe someone writes music for my film. And it's not, you know, and I have us like, obviously, you know, I was kind of worried he was not going to like it for so when he was just blown away, I get that reaction. It was so, it was so fun. And then every time we were together, it was like, he had such an, it was such a, it was so passionate about his work. And, and, and it was always so fun. Right. So, and we, so we both are like addictive, like we love our work. Right. And, and when you get to combine that friendship with, with, with work. So that's, that's, that's, that's, that makes it very special. You can hang out with your, with your body is right while working. Can I geek out with you for a second on three films, Fruitvale, Black Panther and Sinners. When you think of those three films, what instrument comes up in your mind first for each? Fruitvale was a guitar. Because I knew I was like, I knew how much, Ryan loved the guitar, you know, and, and I guess I never really thought about why he loves the guitar. And I never understood why he loves it until like we started working on Sinners. And it's like I understand like, okay, well his uncle, you know, was a play a great blues. He loved blues music and he always played blues. And obviously in blues music, guitar is the, the main instrument. Right. So, so Ryan kind of grew up listening to that music and it's always been in his, in his, in his bones and his mind. And my dad is a guitar player and blues music that changed my dad's life to become a, a blues guitar player. 1964, he bought his first, my dad bought his first blues album, Donnie Hooker. And that music, you know, coming from the other side of the world to Sweden, it's life to become a guitar player. And that, obviously, and that made my, you know, he put a guitar in my hands when I was seven. So it's kind of a full circle there. That's really cool. Yeah, so with, with Prevostation, I would say the guitar is, is, is the main, the main instrument. And Black Panther is the, the, the, the talking drums. I don't really know what talking drums are. Could you explain? Yeah, it's, it's, it's the first type of communication device. It's the first telephone. So in, in, in, in Africa, and, and I was specifically, I went to Senegal and West Africa. But this, but talking drum exists in so many different regions down the, done Africa. But it's, it's, it's basically a drum that they can play messages with because it's, it's very small and you, you could breathe and you can squeeze it to have different pitches. So with these different pitches and these, these different rhythms, you can talk. It's almost like Morse, Morse code, you know, but, but analog on a drum. And in every village, they would have a talking drum. They would relay messages to the everyone. You, he would stand in the middle, he or she would stand in the middle and then play. And they would, you could tell, all the king has died or, or someone's back from being gone for a long time where, you know, everyone get together. And so, and I met this incredible musician in, in Senegal, Massambadi, who, who, who, who put together an amazing talking drum crew. And, and we recorded a bunch of stuff in, in Senegal. And I was like, I'm, I wanted one thing that I thought was interesting was like, how would you say Tachales drum, Tachales name on that instrument on that drum? Yeah. Oh, wow. Very cool. The theme. And then, and for Seners, yeah, it's a guitar again. And we're back to where it all started. Yeah. And Buddy Guy. And, and who was in the film and who I want to talk to Ryan about, it's just like, amazing, like an amazing moment at the end of the film. Yeah. Thank you for talking about Ryan. And I'm really excited to talk to him today. Do you have a question for me before we go that you think would be fun for me to ask? It's, it could be big or small. It could be asking him a story to tell. It could be a private joke of your many years together. Or it could be something about the film or anything at all. I mean, you could ask him, you know, because when we were doing Seners, he was, he was practicing guitar. He was playing almost every day, you know, you had a guitar in his office. He had, he took it with him when he moved to New Orleans for, for production. So, you know, and I spent, I spent a little, not a lot of time, but a little time on, with him just like showing him how, how certain riffs was going. And so, you know, that's something you could, you could check in with him like how, how, how's his chops coming along? Perfect. Perfect. Okay. And only because the movie's over, it doesn't mean that he just, you know, does, does, does it, does it, does it, that he doesn't need to keep it up? Yeah. Right. That little big says like, you know, you just can't put it down. Like, next time I see you, I expect you to be, I expect you to have improved. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for your time. It really means a lot that we got you in, in, in what I know is probably a busy day with a young, up-and-coming filmmaker, Christopher Nolan. I wish him the best. And just such a fan of your work and really, really appreciate your time, Linda. It can really nice to meet you. Yeah, nice to meet you too. And I hope to see you maybe in Sweden next time. Anytime. And, tack. Thank you. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Ayo. Yes. Okay. Thank you so much. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Got a resolution save kick 2026 off right with Visible. It's a one line wireless plan with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included. All unverisans 5G network. It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection. Now for a limited time, new members can get the Visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Ring in the new year with code switch 26. Share the savings with a deal that is too good to keep quiet. Switch now at Visible.com. Terms apply limited time offers subject to change. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. Ryan Cooper is here. I am so so happy. Thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having me. This is amazing. I got invited here. Are you kidding? Are you kidding? We're thrilled you wanted to do this. And I just get to start by saying like, I'm gonna I'm gonna glaze you a little bit in the beginning. Please don't. I know. I know you're not comfortable. It only take a few minutes. I promise I'll be done. But what of the what we were talking about when I was thinking about what what I wanted to talk to you about today, like the big thematic thing is that what I love about your work and your characters is that you don't limit the possibilities of what you want to do as an artist and what your characters could do. Like you're really into the idea of almost open borders in terms of in terms of what people can do and also like what's in them. Basically what's in them. And I feel like that comes from I've you know been reading so much about you and watching of course everything you make and it feels like you're really into this idea of making sure that you get influences from everywhere. Like that that really informs you. Why do you think it's important to be influenced all the time by many different things? I think for me, I'm interested in like a lot of different things. Yeah. And all of my experience is definitely like informed me. We're out where I find myself right? Yeah. And I think that what I do and the position to occupy in the industry is you know I'm trusted to make things that can go into theaters and work for people from a lot of different backgrounds and environments and circumstances. So I think I think what I have to do is I have to stay true to myself and what I like and also consider you know what people came up consuming if that makes sense. It's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it doesn't it doesn't and what you're saying is it's really interesting too because as an artist you have to kind of like you're you have such a strong instinct about what you want. Yeah. And yeah it's almost like you can't you almost want to forget who you're making it for but what I love about your work is you don't. Well yeah. Yeah. You don't. Yeah. Not all of the short because I can't. Right? Like like um you know I find it in love with movies like at the multiplayer you know you know I ain't go to our house theater right? To the film festival. It's a lot of it's like a fully-backed adult you know I'm saying like when you were a kid what did you what did you eat at the movies? Oh tell me about your movie experience. Well right. Would you bring stuff and sneak stuff and would you get it there? I cannot confirm it tonight. Um any any snacks smuggling. But if I but if I did I might have brought up a pen butter and jelly sandwich or two you know what I mean like that was what I would do if I was and that. But but but but no like I used to like I used to like it was a period of time where they used to let you weigh the candy. Yeah. You know what I mean like you pay about weight. Yeah. And um and I would I would do experiments trying to see like what candy was lighter. That looked like crazy which candy was heavier. You know I'm like a trash bag full of cotton candy. Yeah exactly exactly. We ain't never limited fun you know um and and shops all to the uh to um uh all the simmers I used to let us stay once we bought one thing you know um we can go and go and they went and tripping off us going to see something else. Yeah. Get a little bang for your buck but no my my goal too was peanut m&m's. Mm-hmm. Um I'm not a big soda soda person but like when they started to let you mix and match the drinks I got involved with that you know um yeah so so yeah it was peanut m&m's and then and then obviously the junior means if they if they end the freezer you know like if they got them in the freezer and then I'm then I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Like the ritual of getting your snack and sitting down and light's going down like you I know you've talked about it but like it's so important for you to for films to live in theaters. Why is it so important for you? Man you uh this is really cool. We're talking about this um nah I just love how um how uh I mean she is the word you got a Terry like like like but I love how it's just you you in you in there with a bunch of different types of people you know yeah yeah it's teenagers in there because that's the only place I could go be alone um it's it's uh it's retired couples you know I mean I guess it's it's groups of friends depending on the movie you you want to see but everybody's in there together yeah and when the movies and when the movie is it's great you know everybody kind of unifies you know like like you feel you can feel it everybody's energy you focus on the same thing yeah and what I actually really love about it that I learned about myself um since since like a streaming era is like when I get when I get overwhelmed whether it's something too funny or um some scary or I got too much anxiety or I'm too like I'm too like like turned on while I'm looking at whoever I pause like almost like immediately you know what I mean like like like I'll have a fear that yeah maybe I'm gonna miss something cuz I'm laughing too hard or or um out of a out of a worry that like I'm gonna get too worked up and I'm gonna have a fucking heart attack or some key curse on me yeah you curse yeah yeah I'm gonna have a heart attack or something you know I'm like I'm fucking panic attack I pause yeah like it was dope in the theaters you can't pause that's so right yeah you know like it's no so when something's happening that has you like feeling like you you out of control you still got you still got to go with it that feeling of giving yourself over yes to something that you want how to control the pause rewind or fast forward like that that is a really you know it's really nice feeling like you come from me you come from it from it you know you make you're making me remember like when I went to the movie theater to what also happened was like from like I wanted to be funny so also it was a place where you could be kind of funny like you know you'd have a moment a quiet moment you know like especially in the like in the trailers not so much in movies sometimes people wouldn't like it yeah a trailer a trailer would come out and someone would be like nope you know or you know or you know or something like so and you get to get a laugh in a group yeah like you get like that was sometimes like a lot of people's first life oh that's awesome never thought about these and also in movie theaters a lot of action happens like your first day yeah you're scared you grab someone's hand the first time I held someone's hand was a movie theater like it is it's so intimate it's so cool who were the what were the movies when you were like what were the movies that you can remember as a young person going in and walking out of that theater and feeling like you had been completely transformed yeah it'll be it'll be um too big ones poison and hood yeah um and I was I was a baby in there man like like young and young and my younger my oldest kid is now she can't get through a Pixar movie without being like that is too crazy you know I'm not that at me like poison and hood like right here son you know like I'm like four years old like oh shit um but then uh but then uh uh crack beauty in the beach yeah um and then in my comics yeah um all of these was like kindergarten first day and then I'll say I'll say probably one of the biggest ones was Jurassic Park we saw Jurassic Park when Auckland still had a drive me um and I I was I remember being in I remember being in in the car like um and you used to hook the uh speakers up to the window yeah and I'm in there and it's the scene where uh the T-Rex scene at night you know that thing comes off they in a they in a car is driving away from me and they got the shot in um in uh like side view mirror where it says objects maybe closer than they appear in a T-Rex is right on I'm screaming and I look at I look at I look at my song and it's got the same shit written it some I'm like ah like I'm just gonna be a tee you know me I got T-Rex jumping off you know I don't ever like I never forget I never forget that shit man and like I got addicted to that feeling yes yes um so I got the opportunity now to try to to attempt to give people that feeling you know you know so you mentioned Oakland you grew up in Oakland you're going to school there you're really good at sports you're really good I was I yeah okay uh you you're really good what position did you play um in college I play a receiver yeah so are we are trying cake splire receiver um in when you're a receiver and you're in college are you always worried about your hands like you know do you when you're like out and you're like I can't do that like nothing I think about it like you don't treat your hands like I didn't I didn't okay okay yeah I yeah no we was I mean we always like I mean it feels like it like it would be like you'd get no that's I mean if I was smart I would I would have people like I was like 17 you know you know I mean I went shipping like like like um I was I was literally like slamming my hand in car doors it's right right like so it went it went really something was about should have been thinking about it but I mean not a kid's get paid which is great yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I was on scholarship which is like the most you could do legally you know I mean like at the time and um and I was like I was like thrilled that I could pay for school because my parents was bushing they asked for me to put me through private school most my most my life um so y'all was just always thrilled man I was not thinking about my my no you were and did you love that did you love that feeling of playing foot like what was so great and were you your raiders fan growing up obviously I was agnostic yeah like like in the bay I was agnostic do you have any posters on your wall did young Ryan have posters on the idea who were they of athlete to where they are athletes artists I had them I had them one like um who do you have man I had it's crazy I had Jerry rice oh yep um I had Tim Hardaway where where where's where's Runtim C um you know down the road um you know I would I would get I would get into like into like other athletes like I came a large one was a big one for me um you know and then football wise I still want to start playing receiver I just love I like the all the receivers man Randy Mars Terrell ones um Tim Brown you know Steve Smith who is Steve Smith I love because he was like short like I was you know it was still out there making that happen it's interesting like athletes just like anyone else or like I find looking for people that wrap like look like that absolutely that that are good because it's like I yeah but I mean I also knew that like you know I would meet players like um like Maurice Jones drew or more Shaulish like players I would play against and I'd be like man I got a lot better than me you know like you're like oh they're gonna be like you come across players that's like all that's something different yeah and and I was kind of how how also kind of see early maybe football when you're gonna be what I did for every how about Marcion being like a comedy star now yeah was he always funny I mean he's not funny when you try to tackle him you know I'm saying I just really I just really play against him you know like like we we came across each other a lot um and he would he would he would he would actually are in high school he was trying to guard me so I was dealing with him on offense and defense I had some success on the offensive side against him but like like trying to try to tackle that man was impossible so like he was not funny on the field but but yeah as a as a person man he's hilarious you know I mean yeah yeah yeah this whole family is like that though yeah you know like like our families from the same from the same part of Auckland and he is mom hilarious you know I mean like his brothers you know yeah but how do you go from so you're playing in your finance major and then you switch to becoming a film major nah like so so you leave and go to USC after you yeah yeah yeah yeah so um I went to I went to high school and Berkeley yeah and at this point I was living in Richmond another city yeah that's even that's even more blue color in Auckland right yeah um and I got I got a scholarship to a school called same-age college was in a bay I had a teacher there rose made Graham who who reached something that I wrote in the credit writing class was like yo you should write screenplays but at that time I was a chemistry major so I figured I was gonna try to be a doctor or something right and then um but the chemistry lives was not working out with my football practice is always having a real tough time so I was like y'all gotta get out this chemistry shit so I can keep my keep my scholarship and um that that football program collapsed so I got another scholarship to Sacramento State went there and measured in finance but I took I took filmmaking classes on the side that makes sense yeah yeah I mean when I when I've been learning about you like you USC that you met so many people though yeah everybody yeah it's like talk about talking about a team it's where you met your team yeah absolutely absolutely yeah that's so I was grad school right and I met um I mean I guess the other people I work with Louisville who I met first um Louis Yoronson like a paulger and yeah um my co-writer on Cree Aaron Covington um and then eventually I meet Sev all hand you yeah you producing partner yeah who works with me and Zenzie I part 70 and you met your beautiful wife Zenzie there well Zenzie I'm at an Auckland like I'm a man I'm a man oh you met when you guys met when you were like 13 oh start 10 yeah you guys grew up together you grew up together I'm thinking so amazing when you talk about all the stuff that you make um you talk about the people that you make it with which in my opinion um like really I don't know I so respect artists who remind people that what they make is a communal effort oh yeah but people don't always want to do that right like they don't want they sometimes they that's just not their first instinct and it really is and I know Zenzie makes your films with you yeah and how important is she in terms of like your process how how do you guys work together we just like since we so so we started dating in high school we broke up for a little bit and then um what happened there I mean not that's not for the podcast but okay okay high school is shit um but but but we got back together right before we went to college yeah and and what we would do like that summer before before we left because we was both on scholarship she went to Fresno instead I went to um same age like I mentioned in this Sacramento State but what we would do is we would just work out together um to get ready for college and we go to the movies like dollars it like we was either we was either on a track working out you know way around different ways or we was you know we was uh uh at the movies you know in every video and in Richmond and Oakland um and and for us we got really uh used to pushing each other you know and supporting each other you know um being at each other's meets her being at my at my football games she's incredibly shy but like at my at my games I can hear her voice like you know all I was out there trying to trying to catch touchdowns and everything I tried to do the same for her to track me um and when I got interested in filmmaking um you know she she was just really supportive you know like like I was writing screenplays in in Microsoft where it kind of like vent to her like man if one day I got to software that cost 300 bucks um called final draft and you know maybe one day I could get that you know the means all got adjust the margins and all that yeah um and then she you know she said over money got that from me um and it wasn't just like here baby your girls the draft she was like where's that script back you know yeah was that thing you working on yeah um you know that athletic mindset yeah uh so so so how it works is you know I always talk to her about what I'm thinking about working on and she'll I kind of home my pitch with her yeah um it should be the first person to read you know what I what I write give me feedback um some of my scripts are always going on really really honed at their at their early stages in my career and in um film school she was with me um you know all the time she would enter all the classes with me as she work on work on the sets you know um producing and and sometimes operating the camera and you know if I had to jump in um you know so so it was that kind of support and it just it's just kind of stayed that way um through fruitville when we shot at home I was when we first moved in and started living together wow she was on say you know she had a day job she'll just come like get off work come on how many days did you shoot fruitville station in oh 20 20 yeah what I'm learning or what I feel like I know about you Ryan is like you're super collaborative and also you know what you want like those two things are so important I think for any real leader especially on set but I don't think enough people know that a set is like a little town like it's like so many people work no totally totally and your parents were school teachers yeah yeah so like you you get it like like like like like like that you know that blue collar mindset um you know the communal the communal mindset the need for communication if for me it really is I think that's why movies work when they when they work you know um because you're talking about like like mass entertainment you know I mean like a lot of people going and going guys with the but that's why you're such a genius is because it's it's it's hard to make it's hard to make a movie number one just try to make a movie then it's hard to make a good movie yeah then it's hard to make a good movie that people enjoy making with you right they walk away and go that was a good experience right then it's hard to make a good movie that was enjoyable to make that people go and see yeah those things are really hard to make you done it over and over and over again yeah and you've done it again with sinners so incredible oh thank you and I picture you going to your team and being like I have an idea and they're like what was their first instinct was so I went to the zinsey first yeah um and and it wasn't fully baked and she was like man I ain't ready yet yeah keep thinking on that yeah so I thought I'd want to some more yeah I think I'm about I don't think I went to her like three times before she was like okay that makes sense you know and and it was better for it and then it goes to save a hundred who you know we're the three founders of proximity and we got co-founder and Lou V. Jörnson and this is a it's a music based film so we brought Lou V. again crazy early yeah exactly before that was a script um well you know while I was just I did oh that's so interesting that bed big so were you always thinking about Michael B Jordan from that you were always thinking about using the twins and the twins was always an early like that was yes yes why why twins it's hard to shoot I know yeah like this extra work yeah yeah yeah no no for sure I mean look like it was a hook for me it was so sticky right like um and in this day and age you need uh I think you need multiple reasons to like lean in you know like like when there's so many great things available you know like I was in the way you're watching you and I'm watching you and Julie trifles talk and it's so entertaining I guess I already it's an hour like two really entertaining people being intimate and talking you know that's just on my phone for me to click you know there's so many ways to spend time so for me like I think that I'm a foreign believer in like some things having multiple hooks you know you know what I mean and and and it's a hook for me because um I got I have twins in my family but I and I love them and I got a lot of homies as twins but I'm also also have a crippling fear of doppelgangers who strike phobia you know what I mean no I don't what do you mean yeah uh what are you afraid of that you're gonna run across your own yeah I've had nightmares like that but but also like because I know you mean because you know offense who twins but twins the idea of twins in general is a little creepy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like like so so I think someone who was in the womb with you well yeah that's that's fascinating to me like yeah and and we dug deep yeah we're Mike like I got two buddies um who are filmmakers no longer in Miller um they actually wrote the script G-Tween that that I'm viola was in which is president like doing action shit yeah yeah yeah they from Northern California a little bit farther north than than we're on from and um and and I actually asked him if they would be open to being consultants on the movie like to work with me and Mike on developing the characters and then we dug so deep into like the it's like the mindset in the dynamics of of what it's like to have yeah you know um you know essentially a copy of yourself yeah next to you all the time you know um but Michael Michael B he's just like he's just not not you just not not giving you back by his grains and um and how you portray these characters where did you first see Michael did you see him before you knew him did you see it did you see did you watch the wire I did you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you know I know a lot of kids like that you know um both you know friends of mine and also when I was working on my dad. So yeah, it was a brilliant portrayal and kudos to Mike for his performance in David Simon for writing the character. And as we all have in the show, that show was a next level. And then he was great fighting like licensed. Yeah, that's right. And did you think it's important for directors? A lot of directors have an actor that they get to kind of, you've had a few. Like an actor that you get to kind of keep working with and working stuff out with. Why is that helpful to work with the same person more than once? Yeah, I mean, I think it's great, man. Like, well, it's funny because it actually comes back to football for me because I play a player receiver and I play with a lot of different quarterbacks, you know, especially in college. And it was tough because I never felt like I found my rhythm with one person, you know? And that's so important. Like, I think finding a rhythm is like a, it's like fundamental to, I think, to achieve in greatness, you know? Yeah. So it's phenomenal to have, to have, um, found a actor who sold, who sold talented, you know, gifted, um, uh, ambitious, you know, because Mike is constantly trying to push himself and get better at his craft professional. Mm-hmm. And that's also like a good person, you know, like, like, he's like, when you're doing a movie with him, if he's number one in your car, you know, that you're going to have a safe set for people, you know, and he'll be able to do great work without making people's lives miserable. We're going to treat people with kindness. Um, he got nothing to prove. So he learns the PA's name, he turns the camera operator's name. Yeah. The same way he'll know the producer's name, you know? Right. Right. Um, and, and that, that is something that I think permeates the set, like, out of foundation and love. I've been very blessed in that, you know, one could argue too that you, you, that's also what you transmit, give off. That's your station, like, your channel is attuned to that. So people take their cue from you. I'll try to, you know, but it's great to have Mike there to amplify it. Yeah. You know, because that's who he is. Yeah. Um, and he's ridiculously talented. Like, it's, it's, and he was doing work that require a lot of focus, you know, like, he was, he was still a generous to people. Yeah. And he's got to be, you know, two different people, you know, was it fun to call him up and be like, you're going to be a vampire? What was crazy? Because I would be psyched if someone was crazy. It was, it was great. I might have to make the car something. Man, we might have to figure it out. But, but, but for me, um, what, what it, what it was was how they did that working. I was trying to get the screenplay together. Mm hmm. Cause Mike's busy, you know? Yeah. And, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to say how I got a thing. Yeah. And then having waiting for, you know, for, for a script, I didn't even blow my phone. I ain't wear a set. Um, but what ended up happening was he called me and pitched me something. Mm hmm. While I was working on this for him. Um, and, and I was like, first, I was like, Mike, I can't, you know, I can't work on that right now. And he got upset like, man, it was, I was going on, man. Like, I want, you know, I want to get this going. Yeah. Like, it's something you're not telling me. So I'm like, look, I'm working on the thing. Oh, it's interesting. I have a secret, but I'm not ready to tell you. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm bringing this to you. Wow. This is what it is. It's, it's twins, you know, it's, it's period, it's vampires. And I remember how you, how you reacted. Cause he just got quiet for, for, for a long time. And I was like, oh, like, oh, shit, that I'll lose them. And he's like, uh, he's like, man, you know what? That's not pretty interesting, man. He was like, okay, okay. When, when, when, when, when you want to do it and, and so, uh, I got the script done and got it to him and then he was, and then he was in. I mean, I, there's a lot, I, I'm not a big, uh, horror, I, I, I get kind of scared at movies and, um, I'm not really a big horror fan. Yeah. But what's so cool about vampires is vampires are sexy. Exactly. Zombies are not. Zombies are not sexy. No vampires are sexy. There's, it's true. And, and your film has a, like, there's so much going on. It centers so amazing and original IP and like beautifully written and beautifully acted and shot and incredible cast. The chemistry between the characters in your film is so real and the way in which you basically create, uh, in the midst of horror, like, like love and romance and sex. And it's just like, you do a lot of things in this movie really, really well. And I would just like to say the most of the, of the many things in the film that I loved. And I just get small for a second to talk about the scene, the dancing scene in the film, um, uh, autumn, your incredible T.P. First female T.P. to shoot in this I max format, Arcapa, autumn, autumn, autumn, work up. Yeah. And, and autumn, but how did you guys approach the scene? There's that beautiful scene where everyone's dancing and kind of enjoying themselves before the horror starts. And their ancestors kind of, they join them. How did that scene look on the page? Yeah, I could tell you, um, it, because I had outlined the script before getting into final drive and writing it. Yeah. And I didn't have, I didn't have that, that, um, um, surreal, like element to it. It was, it was just going to be that, that, that, you know, preacher boy scenes and people like it, you know, um, that's what it said in the script. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, in the outline, when I got to it in the script, like, I, I got, I felt strange because I have fallen in love with all these, all these characters, but I didn't want them to die, you know what I mean? Like, like, that was, I realized in this movie, they got out, they all got it, like, it bent in the neck and, and, and check out, you know what I'm saying? Um, and, and, and, uh, I felt, I felt bad, and I was, and, and I realized that this scene was the midpoint, and it downloaded me, like, there, these, these people, uh, the The real people, not almost scripted, the real people that they based on. These black folks in 1930s who were like of age to being in their juke joint, you know, they were living in in in in carst hill during Jim Crowley always they always sharecroppers. Because it was nothing else that the society allowed them to be. The grandparents were enslaved. Their children, their children's children would still be sharecroppers. But somehow they invented, you know, probably the most impactful American contribution, the global popular culture. And they invented it just because they wanted to fill a lot for a few hours, you know, Friday and Saturday night, you know, and they had no, I don't think they had any idea that the music that they listened to would change the world. You know, like, so I thought about that. I said, I want to talk about the dog, like killing my vampires. You know, like I got to have something else in the movie that that is like some type of some type of victory moment, you know. And that was where that was where the idea, the idea of depicting just how powerful and transcendent Sammy's voice is. If it could call a vampire, you know, maybe it could call these people's ancestors and descendants too. So I wrote it all in italics. I clicked italics on it and I kept it all in one chunk. Like almost like a stream of consciousness. And I left it like that in the script for when my partner is ready to know it, to really read that differently. Yeah, it's so powerful. And thank you for putting that, giving that context to it because that's what it felt like. It felt like you were you were loving those characters in real time. That's what it felt like. I felt like a loving gesture and we felt that when we saw it was so, so beautiful. And so beautifully shot just the way the camera moves. I mean, it was everybody working like in concert. We brought in Akamon Jones who's a choreographer. Works a lot with Usher Raimi choreographed like pitch perfect. And you did all the Panther films. I actually met him through childhood Boseman. I'm Russian Pish. And you know, every department was in on that like from Hannah Beakler to our visual effects supervisors, Michael Rowland and James Alexander. All them, they're all archipelars. Some of the time for obviously you got a brilliant steady cam. Yeah, the steady cam work was incredible. It's a kid named Riny. Haitian American kid, ex football player. He's a shoulder-lust man. He's a strong dude. It's sharp. And everybody had to work together. The actors, the incredible dancers, Ruth Carter with our costumes. And it was like that was the most team effort of everything that we did. That scene as well as I used to call it the Twin Counter-Part, which is the step dance you're seeing that happens a little bit later in the film. Yeah, it's so beautiful. And I want to say you talk about your work on Black Panther and Chadwick, you gave a beautiful speech recently at the Hollywood Walk of Fame about Chadwick, which is beautiful. And I don't think people ask you enough or I don't hear enough like what did you guys laugh about when you would work together on Black Panther? Me and Chad. What do you think about the times where you're in the hospital? Have you seen Chad on SNL? Oh, yeah. He's a lyricist. He is a lyricist. Like he might play a giant's brain. And he can do anything. Yeah, but his natural way of being, I think, uh. What do you like to tease? All the time. Yeah, no, no, no, no. But he would do it in accent, which is worse. It was crazy about him on set. Yeah, he was very disciplined. So he's constantly in accent. And just being like, he'll be ridiculous. Like in between takes. Yeah. Like, um, like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of like, like, do you guys, did you guys goof around when you're, I mean, it's, I was working hard. I was always, I was ridiculously stressed out. Yeah. You know, like, like, like, I believe it was stressed out. I bet. And, um, and, and we know, we know now what all Chad was dealing with. Yeah. Um, but he was, he was incredible, man. And like, and like, deeply, deeply funny, you know, a deeply funny man. Like he would, he would, he would tease with, uh, with Lupita and the nod. Um, you know, uh, constantly, constantly cracking jokes, man. Like, like, and, um, you know, we were like, we were laughing most about the costumes. You know, like, like, just just, uh, uh, yeah. And I bet it must be fun to like, introduce a new costume. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Like, like, um, uh, yeah, but, but I, like, like, like, like some of the props to man, like, we were joking. We were joking. I said that he was, we was going to give him, like, it was a walking scene. We were joking. I said, we was going to give him the, um, like, the, the, the giraffe till, um, that he can like, that he can like, like, like, like, swipe, like, swipe fly away while he was walking with, he was walking with Lupita. And he would, he was, he was a martial artist. Well, that's right. So he took that, he took the, uh, the, uh, the little thing. He was, I mean, he had the ability to, like, clown. He was so talented, so talented. He was gifted, man. Yeah. Like, um, but, but how did, you know, how the gracious of humor? I feel like comedy sometimes is where we stay connected sometimes with the people that have passed, like, like, like, thinking about the times we laughed with them. 100%. And they, I feel sometimes like they make us laugh. Yeah. We, we see something that makes us laugh, that makes us think of us laughing with them. I don't know. I just think that like, it's fun sometimes to think about those times. No, for sure, man. Like, um, and, and I think, uh, for, for me, well, when I look, when I look back on my relationship with him, man, it taught me, it taught me so much. But the biggest thing is like to not take the answer granted, you know, like even, even all that is, I mean, like, like, um, the success of the film, um, being invited through podcasts with you, um, um, doing, um, um, awards press with my cast. Yeah. Like, before losing him, you know, I would be, um, not present in all, in all his moments, you know, like I would be overwhelmed or, or be considered to be work or, uh, dealing with like, imposter syndrome or have you, um, but was, was, since, since losing him, because he would be the one to, to like snap me out of that, you know, like when I would be stressed on, on pants, I'll say, man, I got to hurry up and do this and I'm, I'm gonna get fired. You know, and he would say, hey, man, stop saying that. He actually put me to the side. It was like, you know, stop saying that. And, you know, and I'm like, no, I truly believe that. He was like, yo, I'm not gonna let anything happen to you. You tell me, I'm not letting nobody fire you, bro, like me. Like so, so please stop, you know, please stop saying that. Relax, man. You know, be a work and enjoy it. You know, um, and, and, and that, that very active being present. He was so, he was so good at that. So I think about that all the time. Yeah. Like, like, even walking in here with you, I'm like, man, I'm really, I'm really here. Like, I just seem to sit on the podcast and I'm here talking. I see you perform and, and watch all your movies and your shows and it's like, it's like, damn, I'm, I'm, I'm being invited to come sit in this, in this same, in the same slide. Just being present. No, I'm really learning that from him, you know, it's a, that lesson is like, I feel like the lesson we just have to keep remembering and being reminded of over and over again, like be where you are. Yes. Be where, where your feet are, be where you are. It's hard. It's not easy, but you're right. It's a gift every time you're reminded of it. So are you getting to enjoy the fact that you have a gigantic, successful, movie that's like being rewarded and will be awarded and you're with these people that you work with now for really long. It's awesome. You don't have a time, my life. And so we do this thing on the show where we talk to people who know our guests. We kind of talk well behind their back before we get, before we talk to them and we talk to Ludwig today. Okay. Oh, man, that's crazy. Okay. And first of all, so sweetish. Yeah. Yeah. My brother lives in Sweden. Yeah. And then he has a panel, how they go? It didn't go well. Oh, he talked back to you in English. No, he talked back to me in Swedish and I panicked. I totally panicked. Well, you got through the first thing. I got, I said, like, two words and then he answered me and I wrote, you know, I'm not trying to speak it in line with the people who neither speakers, I just talked back to me in English and be like, I'm sorry. Oh, I know, that's just nothing sadder than when they, when they talked back to you in English and they're like, please, don't, yeah, we're like, what are we trying to do here? Yeah. So you got Swedish back? Maybe I should look at it as a win. So I got to see it as a... I got to see it as a... Exactly, he definitely was humoring me. And he's so... Oh, I mean, what an incredible talent. And the music... It's so interesting to me that you brought him in so early because you can tell that... I mean, this is a movie about the power of music, too. And you have buddy guy... The embodiment of the before and now. You know, it's just like a living person. Totally. And in many ways, almost feels like a vampire. Yeah. In the way that feels like he's still here. And was there then. And was there then, yeah. It's so cool. But when that long ago, it was like kind of like with the movie is... Yeah. Right. And a very good reminder. It's actually like... I cheated him for younger. Because like... Yeah. If the character would have actually been buddy's age, it would have put the movie into the 2000s. All right. It would have put it into 2000 and 2000 as a part of the 92. Which would have put the fashion like it is today. So it would have probably confused him. Right. Yeah, because you write you need a little bit... You like to do the audience. Yeah. That's really interesting. And you and Ludwig, you know, he's talked about... How amazing it is to work with you, how collaborative it is to work with you. He also said like, you know, there were a bunch of different versions, versions of centers that before the final version and working on that together and figuring out what that was. And... And how his dad and your family, like the blues, were... It brought us together. It did. How did it bring us together? Yeah. So the history of how the blues became this instrument of global cultural change was really interesting. Like the Delta Blues, when the record industry came, they made those records, race records. And this was a time where country was segregated. And the record industry was a product of that. So they would kind of put race records over here, anything made by a black person. The same record made by a white person. I call that maybe rock and roll or bluegrass, a country. And black musicians, when the record industry was versioned, they couldn't tour. But their records would travel overseas. And a lot of bands in Europe kind of fell in love with the music. Like maybe most famously the Rolling Stones, the bands, sort of, or the Beatles. And then those guys would come to the States and seek out these musicians and then take them on their European tours, as opening acts. And then Sweden, Louis Vuitton's father saw, I believe, John Lee Hooker. And I routine. Yeah, yeah. And it was so inspired by seeing him. He decided that he wanted to become a blues guitarist and became one. And when he had his first son who was Louis Vuitton, he introduced them to guitar lessons. His dad made money as a guitar teacher. And it was crazy as Louis Vuitton. How he tells me it was something that he would like to spend time with his father. He was his dad. But he wasn't necessarily crazy about the music that his dad was listening to until he heard Metallica. And then boom, we fell in love with it and became a guitarist, how to jazz, quartet, all kind of different stuff going with the music school. And eventually came to the States to learn how to become a film composer. And that's how we met in school in 2008. Yeah, you met at a party. Yeah, I mean, if you want to call it that, it was pretty, it was pretty, it was pretty dead. It was a bunch of, it was a bunch of narrators sitting around. And we was too young. Yeah, I mean, he, he asked me. Yeah, his question to you is like a perfect musician guitarist question, which is question that he wanted me to ask you was, how is your guitar playing going? Oh my God. He wants to know how it's going. That's my vision. Oh, me. Okay. So maybe, maybe there's one thing you're not great at. It's a lot of things like great. You should bring Zenzian here. It should tell you. It should tell you also. But no, no, I'm terrible. Yeah, like it's not going well. Yeah, it's not going well. Good. It makes the rest of us feel a little better. And then we're also not in like an excellent guitar blues guitar yet. Yeah. But you learn it. You're trying to better at typing. Yeah. But the guitarist who is here, my kids play now, but I got to get back on my lessons. Yeah, he wanted to check in. Oh, it's not going well. Okay, well, let him out. Well, I just want to say, you know, before we wrap, is that the effect that Black Panther had on, you know, I went to the movies to see that with my sons, my teen sons. And to see something together, a shared experience like that together and a kind of walk out to your point out into the world after feeling completely changed. Like the color of the sky is different. And the way we're talking to each other is different and the things we've heard is different. Like the way in which their lives were truly changed by that film is so special to me. I really, I thank you for it because it's not always easy to find that, especially like a mom and her boys and teen boys, and like to find something that you can share in together and love equally. It's such an incredible piece of art. They would want me to ask you if you're making another one. Yes. Okay. That's all I want now. No, no, no, no. Like my mom was my movie buddy, you know, she still is. You know, so, so, so yeah, I got that, that, that, hearing that story. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the car with my mom going to go see a movie she was excited about. She would go when I was two young, like go to see movies, she would come back from days with my dad and she would, if the movie was good, you know, she was, she was, she was, she was standing there in the living room and act out the movie for me. Like walk, walk me through everything that happened. My finest memory was her doing that with the fugitives, you know, being like, she's like, yeah, that has to for it. She goes down the waterfall. And then Tom Lee Jones says, I don't care. And then like, you know, that was my mom. So like, like hearing that you watch the witch up with, y'all had a nice time. That, that, that means everything to me. Thank you. It meant a lot to me too. I really appreciate it. And I, the, the last question I want to ask you is, um, your relationship to comedy, you have, you, you, you, I think in all of the stuff that you do, you, you have fun, you like have fun with the, the ways and again, which you're, you don't put boundaries on how your characters are going to react to things. Sometimes they're like light and comedic. You have a, you want to have fun and the stuff that you make and you want people to have fun when they go and see your films. Um, what, what are your, what were some influential comedic films for you growing up in what, are what's making you laugh now? How do you laugh? Man, I, that's something. Um, a lot of it for me these days, um, it's coming like, it's coming from the end in it. Yeah. Like, like, like, like, like big, like big time, man, like, um, but coming up, you know, like one of my favorite movies is coming to America. Oh my God. Incredible. Like, like, like, that's, that's, that's my, you know, that's my incredible. That's got my, that's got my heart, um, to this day. Um, and I love, I love, like, I love Friday. Yeah. You know, like, like, like, that's a big one. Yeah. Um, I love, I love like, like, Macay's, Macay's work, like, one of my favorite movies to other guys. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that I think that gets slept on. I totally agree. That's my favorite movie I hear is, you know, you make some, some great, some great ones. Um, that is a stupid, fun movie. Yo. I can't like it's, like it's so much, it's like it's so much, yeah, it's so much in that movie that's, that's, that's, that's so deeply hilarious. Um, you know, uh, and, and, and you know, like, like, like, obviously, SNL, you know, do you watch SNL? Yeah, big time. You do. You know, like, like, I love what Mike did on there. Yeah. The state farm bit. No. Let's watch that. Wait, tell me to get, explain again, the state farm bit. So, so, so, so Mike is, um, you will be okay. Yeah, will you set it up? So, so, so Mike is Jake from state farm. And, um, and, and it gets, it just goes dark, like, like, like from there, it becomes, it becomes like a, like a, like a, like a, like a David Lynch. But, um, oh yeah, Jake from state farm, okay. He, he, he just totally replaces, he totally replaces it, it becomes his man's wife's nightmare. Like, here, here, replace him. I can see how why you would like this. He just, he just gets out of play. He just, like, just, like, just, like, just get his hand on the small of his wife's Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, just, like, gave him a look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you do you watch you watch sketch to get I do okay? Yeah, yeah I mean obviously I mean that enjoy from Pixar, you know, I'm saying but All of that all of the comedy stuff and I'm like I'm like I think it's like the highest level Of what we do so like you know any of y'all I can that can kill it on multiple levels and multiple ways, you know, I mean live scripty And probably like, you know, you would not have from my work But you know, I feel it. I feel it in there. Yeah, I get it and it's it's I'm I know you're like beyond busy It means a lot that you came. Thank you so much for coming. It was such as such a such a pleasure And um, thank you to every your incredible team of people to who made it happen. So thanks, right? Thank you so much for coming Thank you so much Ryan. That was awesome and I learned so much about you and and about films and your love of them So thanks for joining me today and um for this polar plunge as we finish You know, I asked Ryan what kind of posters were hanging on his wall And I thought it was only fair to share what was hanging on my wall when I was growing up So you should know that I had a poster of the band white snake Okay, that's number one Number two, I think I must have had like a movie poster. It was probably You know something like Lily Tomlin and Bet midler and like big business or something like that. I don't remember I probably had an 80s motivational poster like a cat hanging on a branch saying hang in there when I was really young I used to look at a magazine called Teenbeat and I would rip out posters of Sean Cassidy Um and put them on my wall and put um lip bomb on my lips and then kiss the picture So um, I don't know just felt like you guys need to know that okay Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for listening. Bye You've been listening to Good Hand the executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons Jenna Weiss-Berman and me Amy Poler the show is produced by the ringer and paperkite for the ring production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spalane, Kaya McMollan, and Alayah Zanaris for paperkite production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss-Berman original music by Amy Miles