Tucker’s Brother Buckley Carlson on Dogs, Childhood, Nicotine, Frank Luntz and America’s Future

I'm glad you're here. So you're on Twitter. I didn't even know you were on Twitter. And then the ghouls decided to destroy my son who's got the same name as you. Because in our family, they're only four names and everyone's required to use one. And I think they mistook your Twitter feed for his. I don't even know if he has a Twitter feed. And all of a sudden he became really famous and a couple of your nieces call me. I'll go box on Twitter. I had no idea. I was like, I didn't know that. How long have you been on Twitter? Not very long since 2010, but mostly as a reader. And now that there's nowhere else you can get news, except for unsreview. We're allowed to talk about unsreview on this. Other than unsreview, the only or revolver news, the only other place you can get information these days is on X. So if you're not on it, you're not getting information. I had never actually rendered many opinions on X. But I started doing that recently. Oh, did that change? Yeah, it did. It did. And it's been so fun. Actually, you meet some interesting people on X. There's a lot of creativity on X. I agree with that. There is a lot. I wouldn't know how to make a meme of my life dependent on it, but I sure appreciate them. Other than that, there are some seriously well-researched smart people who've got a lot of interesting stuff to say. And it's addictive. I try not to spend a huge amount of time on it. I actually have work to do. But it will suck me in. But what's your beat alcohol? You beat cigarettes. But Twitter's hard. As much. Thankfully, I've got a lot of nicotine with me. Good. Are you alarmed? By the way, I always assume you normally have a gun right on the table, but I don't see it. I had to fly through. I had to be grubbed by TSA this morning. And Don, it was awesome. They were just a strategy for that. My strategy used to be, hey, say please. And thank you. Because you work for us. They love that message. Yeah, they do. Actually, I've seen you try to enforce anger. Anglo manners at the TSA station. Doesn't work. And actually recently, since they've instituted the real ID and they have you stand and take your picture. I know they have your picture everywhere else and they have your biometrics. I took a principled stand a few times and said, oh, no, I don't think I want a picture. Well, every time that's happened, they managed to discover that I have a duplicate ticket or no TSA badge. And I have to go back to the front of the line. So I don't do that. I'm captain compliant. I go through. Well, I'm super courteous when I walked through. So they broke, you're like Winston Smith at the end of 1984. They just broken you. You're like, two plus two. I think that's five. Is it five? You just have to surrender and simply wait and exactly if you want to fly anywhere these days. So no, I'm not armed sadly, but I'm in the great state of Florida. I don't think I've ever seen you unarmed, but you're, this is a safe place. Normally, you have this little thing on the table and Uncle Buck, what's that? Well, back up planner. But so you've actually been broken by TSA. I don't really think there's any other solution to it. I'm still angry about it. Right. Oh, for sure, legitimately, I find it to be one of the most humiliating experiences of American life. And I do still say to everyone around me after I've gone through the groping, I say, do you feel safer? You do say that every day? You offer it every moment in the life. It's amazing how few people actually will take the badge. They can smell the non-compliance on you when you get away quick. Big time. He should be deplatformed. There's a lot of that on X. I had heard that you could say whatever you want. It turns out that's not true. Always not true. No, and people have no sense of humor. They don't like jokes anymore. No. Can I just give you my strategy for TSA when I get groped? Please. Little of the left. Yeah, no. Totally. Yeah. I'm going to put you around the belt area, sir. I'm like, ring it on, baby. And then just act like you love it. And it's so creepy that it'll abbreviate the experience. Do you go through the X-ray machines so they can keep the file? I try not to. I'm so paranoid about all of that stuff. I'm getting crazy. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to get some weirded olimp foam up from the magnetometer or something. I just can't be healthy, right? No, I can. I think you're once you've surrendered and you can't do anything in American life without surrendering to some extent, even emailing or texting, you know that other people have it. So at some point, you should just adopt an attitude. No, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, we've both been tamed by the women in our lives and just like, stop making a fuss. But I always think these are the people who ran the burn pits at Camp Le Jun, where our father was stationed and the Marine Corps and never joined the class action. Never did he never joined the class action. That's right. Not a litigious man. I was saying this one day, I'm 56. I've never sued anybody. So I said, people are slandering. You got to sue and I was like, I'm committed to a higher principle than in my culture we're not into lawsuits at all. And I'm never going to, I want to make it to death. And I hope it's, you know, a while from now without ever suing anybody. That'll be a personal victory for me and my family. And really only our family will appreciate it because the culture we grew up and it's just gone. Doesn't like it never existed. But I'm not. Yes. Oh, you've noticed? Yeah, I have noticed. Has it, has it been a net win or loss for the country? Would you say? After we won World War II and we got to luxuriate in our freedoms and, and all the economic prosperity that has led us to be freer and able to speak our mind. No, no, it's actually tragic. And if you have children as you do, I guess they're no longer young, but you really see it with the way our children have grown up and the restrictions they've had on thought and speech. Especially, I mean, we grew up at a time as you know where I don't think everybody's ever heard this question before in a, in a school setting. One, ask any question you want. In fact, you're encouraged to ask a question. I was always taught and ask any question you'll never get in trouble. And then that silly little ditty, you know, sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me. That was real. And none of our children were taught that no, no American child, goes through life thinking that they can deviate from the script, that they can offer some opinion that's counter to the authorities that are in front of them. And that's tragic. And it obviously has a huge effect. It's stifles imagination and creativity, which are why they've died. I think actually that slogan, which if you're under 50, you may not be familiar with, but it was a staple of, well, England, by the way, and then the United States, it's child. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. It's actually been inverted where we've endorsed sticks and stones. Violence is no big deal. We're totally for violence. Just blow up the drug boats, whatever. Are they drug runners who cares, kill them? And by the way, Charlie Kirk got shot. Well, yeah, because he used bad words like he deserved it. People believe that. So sticks and stones are fine, but words are the threat. What is that? It's terrifying, actually. It's not a Western orientation. No. No, it's not. But it is prevalent here now in the West. It's everywhere. So you've, it looks like you've decided not to play along. I am not playing along and unfortunate because I've grown up in an atmosphere where actually I was encouraged to say what I believe. I don't have a lot of governors in my life, especially now that my child is old enough not to be embarrassed by me daily. And I don't have to fight with his various academic institutions that charge me a lot of money and try to wipe out the boy and wipe out the creativity from my son. And that was a, you know, 12, 14 year battle that I had to fight. And also I, so I don't really care. There are very few people whose opinion matters to me. In the end of the day, I have a constituency, basically of one. And that's the woman I love and live with and my son. And then the flately expanding circle of you and other family members. Beyond that, and every one of those people is perfectly apprised of my deep flaws and my history. So. And, and your amazing virtues. And as one of my children said to me, in fact, all of my many children said to me and my nephews, when you made your public conversions on Twitter, the legend of Uncle Buck is this. You know, out there for the public to appreciate. By the way, they loved it. That's so nice. I guess the key is just not thinking about it. I don't think about it. That's actually what I was thinking. I thought you might ask me about this only because it's a new thing in my life. I likened it to shooting rabbits on a sporting clay course. The most accurate you'll ever be is if you're just instinctive. You just pull your gun up and you shoot. That's totally right. And so I have a lot of time to think about what I write. I've been, it's not to write anything to embarrassing. I don't write things that are intentionally provocative. But I also have no trouble expressing myself. And there's so much absurdity out there that needs to be addressed, I think. So. And I think that the most important act of defiance is not violence. I have come to believe in my age that violence actually doesn't, doesn't seem to be so. I don't really know when the last time violence solved a problem, it's also prohibited to us as Christians. So like there's that. But you can't kill innocent. Sorry. But I do think they're right to worry about words. Yes. Actually words do change the world. The New Testament changed the world. Period. The Old Testament changed the world. I mean, truth changes everything. And you may not live to see it come to fruition, but it still is the most profound thing you can do to fight tyranny. Is it tell the truth about tyranny? Yes. Do you feel that? Very much so. And I think and there's a huge amount of people in this country and across the world who do. And it seems like they go aside from podcasts like yours and they're very few. 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Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order or you can click the link in the video description or you can scan the QR code to claim this outstanding offer. And if you don't feel like ordering online, you can buy a nationwide at your local Sprout Supermarket. You can buy and pick up a couple of bags before somebody else does. Tucker's coffee. You talked about growing up obviously we grew up together where the only children in our family, we had the world's smallest family. It was like three of us for a while. And then we've lived next to each other our whole lives until pretty recently. And you talked about telling the truth that your kid's school, I should just say this because it's one of the things I admire so much about you. We sent our children to the same school. Obviously, we lived together. I forgive you. Well, my wife convinced me to send it. Of course, to the school that our kids went to and of course it turned out to be a sub awesome school, very liberal, crazy school. But you know, it was our neighborhood school, whatever we did it. Let's not regret it. But you were the only person in this rich person school that we sent our kids to to confront, you know, with politeness, but firmness, the administration of the school about what they were telling your child, which was like totally bonkers. Like men can become women and hate yourself if you're white and all this stuff. And boys are bad. Testosterone's bad, masculinity's bad. And everyone else was like, okay, well, it's a prestigious school. We'll just go along with it. And you were like, I know. And I remember all the moms kind of hated you, but we're also sort of attracted to you just to be honest about it. And they were like, oh, keep going. Your brother's always making a fuss. And you were like, yeah, I don't care. Why did you do that? You were the only person. My son is the greatest blessing in my life. And it's a sole purpose. It was my sole purpose for a long time. It seemed it's the only thing that could be important and seemingly an enduring thing. When people asked me when I was a kid, probably because we had such a happy, thoroughly fucked up childhood, but really happy, thanks to our father, who was so extraordinary in every way and made it very clear that we were the number one priority in his life. And the busiest guy I've ever known involved in so many things. And yet we were without a doubt his only focus and or his primary focus. And he would do anything, would do absolutely anything. So literal. There are no boundaries. And so that seems normal to me. That was my reflexive attitude about my son. I think the first thing I encountered when I took him to that school that pretended to be a nice Episcopalian school with his own chapel, I noticed. They were anything but Christian and their attitudes. And it was the middle of the Obama administration when everybody got super empowered about indoctrinating children on a level that I don't think I'd ever seen. I don't think the America had ever seen it. And you pay all this money because there's really no chance that you would send your children to a public school in Washington. I thought there's actually an argument probably for sending your children to something other than what we send ours to. Anyway, I remember showing up. It was right after the election. And I'm not a big bumper sticker guy, but I had a bumper sticker. Probably the only other only bumper sticker I've ever owned. And it was a series of four memes. And it was pro God pro life, pro gun. And then it had the Obama horizon with a cross through it. It was in the back of my Chevy Togo and I pulled up and dropped my son off at school. In the visceral reaction from the entire teacher, platoon that was outside was obvious. And so actually I made a commitment right then and there. Again, I was kind of embarrassed to have a bumper sticker on my car. Like, who does that? I kept it on there religiously for the next like eight years until the car died. Yeah, until one of our friends actually took that car that I had tried to flip and destroy many times and unsuccessfully was unsuccessful when he flipped it and broke his neck. Yes, he is. He's OK. He is OK, but he was, yeah, was sober, yes, he is. In his defense, he was dead sober. He was going hunting and it was in the morning. It was in Maine and he hit black ice. Yes, yes, even having grown up in rural man, he somehow wasn't an expert at dealing with black ice. Top of a pine tree off with the vehicle. I know. I've tried by it all the day. Quick, bear every time I go by it. He's unbeatable on every episode. He's going to help us both for sure. He sure is. What a wonderful man. And that's at the tone. And then the other and then the fact that they have your child captive, he pay all his money. They should have a classical education that in this case was billed as something that was rooted in the Christian church. And yet immediately they adopted and started all these clubs that were race-based. My son went there in fifth grade, so he was 10. And they immediately started not only indoctrinating all the kids there, but making them feel horrible about themselves. We're getting kids by race. This is school where all the entire, it's in the middle of the swamp. So it's like the riches zip code in all of DC. And so the diversity- Or the riches in the United States. Yes. And the diversity that they had, they talked endlessly about diversity. And the diversity they had there was color only. Everybody was in the same industry. Everybody was working. Everybody was driving a fucking Range Rover. I wasn't. But they were. And yet, anyway, so stifling and confusing for children. And I just wasn't going to sit back and allow them to do that. And I tried to be reasonable. I was just persistent. And they, boy, they didn't like it. They actually despised me. In fact, I guess I'm encounter that a few times in my life. But boy, they heartily dislike me. Yes, they do. Yes. And these are the kind of people who probably do have voodoo dolls back home. Oh, well. So. All Wiccans, no, they were. My backpans were not from being overweight or from not having a tough core. It was someone sitting, some booger eater sitting at home, you know, stabbing me with a fucking dagger. I'm, excuse my language. Sorry. No, it's fine. No, you're right. It was just, it was so interesting because I saw it. Obviously, you know, I'm your brother. My wife is your biggest fan. So it's like, of course, we supported you. But I just, and but I was not as brave as you. Not even close. And I felt exposed because I had a public job like I didn't want to get, you know, whatever I felt a little bit constrained. But you're just, you were braver than I. That's just a fact. And, but the reaction from the other parents, all of whom liked you because everyone likes you, but they were, they didn't want you, even the ones who agreed with you to keep saying stuff like this because I think they wanted to ignore it. They wanted to fit in more than they cared about their own children's moral and intellectual development. I mean, that's just a fact. And also, I think cowardice breeds self-loathing, which turns into hostility, like extreme hostility. I saw this during COVID in the same place. Can you repeat that cowardice? Think cowardice breeds self-loathing. I think people who are cowardly, hate being cowardly, they know they're being cowardly and they hate themselves for it, especially men or people who exactly, blame to be men. And then that manifests itself in extreme hostility. I mean, I saw everybody's had their experience with during COVID, but I encountered the most extreme hostility when it was, if I, I never wore a mask. I mean, I was compelled to wear a mask on an airplane. Other than that, I never wore a mask. I just wouldn't have refused. And I would travel a lot. So I would go through like Chicago Airport and be the only person that I ever encountered with no mask. It wasn't the authorities who wanted to tackle me. It was the other people like going past me on them, people mover on the escalator who look like they want to fucking stab me in the face. Right. Right. And then when I would, I write for a living and I need to get out in the world in nature and, you know, it's a tough business. It's a solitary business. So I'd take my dogs twice a day and run them in nature. Oh, you have dogs? Oh, yes. I have a few dogs. Five dogs. Five dogs, which is, I think, actually about the ideal number. Yeah. It's about the ideal number. Yes. Of course, I said that every time. Three, four, five is the ideal number. Yes, it's the best. But I would encounter people outside on a windy day in the sun walking. And I wouldn't, of course, didn't have a mask on. And they would all have their beautiful masks on. And it would inspire, the fact that I didn't have a mask would inspire in them. This kind of hostility that I've never encountered anywhere else. And yeah, it was obvious. I think something like that was going on at the school at the Little Episcopal Day School, because the other parents knew that this was bad. And when their kids started to become trans or get into drugs or whatever, these sort of know, like, it's not all your fault. You know, you can't play in parents for everything. But it is partly your fault. And they sort of, you can kind of blend in parents. I try not to judge people. But I do definitely judge them about their parenthood. That's about the one thing I judge people on. Right. Although it may be nice. I know. I mean, you don't actually have total control. There are people who have aberrant children that they're, I believe, are not responsible for. But I think the majority of the weird child behavior stems from shitty parents or parents who were occupied with other people's problems rather than their children's problems. I love you. Yeah. What you're saying is true. Yeah. We've got a new partner. He called cowboy colostrum. It's a brand that is serious about actual health. And the product is designed to work with your body, not against your body. It is a pure and simple product, all natural. Unlike other brands, cowboy colostrum is never diluted. It always comes directly from American grass-fed cows. There's no filler. There's no junk. It's all good. It tastes good, believe it or not. So before you reach for more pills for every problem that pills can't solve, we recommend you give this product cowboy colostrum a try. 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No, my darlings. This is nice, nice, nice. Try a Yonos, your digital partner at ionos.co.uk. This episode is brought to you by spreeker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is spreeker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and spreeker distributes it everywhere people listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about it doesn't apps your cousins swears are the next big thing. Even better, spreeker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show today at spreeker.com. Spreeker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. First. So I should just say for the record that you were scoffed at for having the pro life pro god pro gun anti Obama bumper sticker at a Christian school at a Christian school, right? No pro god, no pro life at Christian school. But then you decided to take your defiance. They're click up the ladder by driving your son to school on a big twin Harley in Carpool line, which I personally saw. And he was like a little kid and there'll be all these Range drivers involved as I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that's it. That's how I try to live my life. You're called to be joyful. In fact, you're commanded to be joyful. Totally agree. You are. You are. What is that? Susie has that thing all over our house. First Thessalonians, rejoice always never stop praying. Yes, that's my favorite. Right. No, you're absolutely right. And Philippians 4.4, which is always be full of joy in the Lord. I say again, rejoice. Yeah. Yeah. That's just such a wonder. It's funny that that's triggering to people. Whatever it was, you were triggering people. And I felt like it was such an active bravery because it's one thing to like, you know, stand up in the Congress and say something unpopular or even like go into battle. But to stand apart from your neighbors at the $50,000 Episcopal school in Northwest Washington where there's just so much conformity. Yes. That takes balls. Well, I appreciate it. I don't think I really thought about that way. I'm so used. I don't know. I've lived my life. We were, as you said, we grew up that way. And what do you mean? Because I did say, okay, so I haven't looked at a lot of your, I'm not on Twitter that much because it's too upsetting to me. But I did go and check your Twitter feed, which I thought was amazing. And, but some of the responses are like, oh, of course you feel this way because you had such a horrible childhood. It's like, wait a second. What do you? People are very personal that way. On the outest attacking your childhood. What did you think of your, without getting, you know, too specific, but like you described it as happy. I actually had the best childhood. I'm really sorry for our children. They didn't have the childhood that we had. I agree with that. Had because it was a just a lesson and adventure all the time, you could define your own boundaries. As long as you were, as you went to school, you were respectful to your parents and you showed up for dinner. There were really no other boundaries. No, nothing. That was it. So, and I loved you, and I loved my father, and I loved our mother. So we had a happy home life. And it was creative and interesting. It was in a beautiful part of the world that was at that time very well-run in California. In fact, I think it was the cleanest, most efficient state in all 50. And it was obviously the center of creativity in the country and in the world. And it was fantastically beautiful everywhere. I mean, it has every single climate we lived near the beach and we got to go swimming in the ocean and we had a bunch of dogs and we got to explore. We got to explore with our friends and experiment. And I also went, I'm sure you recall, it was in a much different time. We could actually walk across the border into Tijuana, Mexico. And engage in all sorts of interesting. It wasn't the most important point. No, it wasn't. I was suddenly thinking. Is Riverley-Johan Avenue still a- I go this is still accessible to American kids. I think the whole thing is so different now. You know, I'm not into you want a lot. But I think it's like a huge, I think it's bigger than San Diego. It's controlled the drug cartels. I don't know. I shouldn't say that. I've never been against Mexico. I've always liked Mexico. Obviously, Mexico has done more harm to the United States than any other country, not even close. But I still like Mexicans. And I still just have happy memories from Mexico. I'm like, we'll never be against it just for, I don't know, reasons of memory. But I wouldn't go there to Tijuana. No, I wouldn't send my 12-year-old child there either. No. But we were- Yeah, well that's right. We were allowed to do basically whatever we wanted as long as we, you know, were polite. And family loyalty was at the center of everything, of course. Yes. Yes. And it was interesting. Our father was involved in so many interesting pursuits. He had interesting friends. Yes. Our friends were interesting. He included us. He treated us like adults where it was a barbarian. I guess all the time. He taught us invaluable things that no one teaches their children. Yes, sure. I mean, yeah. And you've used the word creativity a couple times. It felt to me looking back. I never have thought about it until recently as I see the declining creativity and the awards given to people who are totally non-creative, which is almost everyone in our professional class, like zero creativity. And the creative people are penalized. And that's made me think that maybe the saddest change is the disappearance of creativity and the abundance of it in our childhood. Like that was- wait, I never heard anybody, certainly not our father, ever talk about how rich someone was who gives a shit. Ever plus, no one noticed everybody was pretty much in the same boat. We lived in an expensive area. We had a nice house, but it was not absurd. No one had $5 million houses. No one had $50 million houses either. There wasn't such a thing. No, there was literally not such a thing. So the measure was- and there was much less economic anxiety, obviously. It was a different economy, but still the values were different in creativity. The ability to create something out of nothing. That was like really prized. Yes, especially if your father gave you the what was the James Bond cookbook? What was the other one? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry, I guess they're illegal now. Well, he had a library. He had a- first of all, he had a real library, like almost a public library in our house, and he'd read every book in it. He was very serious about it, and it was talk about Catholic tastes. I mean, broad tastes, universal interest. He's just like nothing he wasn't interested in, and there was a book about every possible thing. There was a ton of extremist literature on all sides. He didn't buy any- he wasn't like he was an extremist. He was not an extremist at all, but he was like really interested in knowing what people thought of why, and this revolution happened, and he hated the Soviets, but he had tons of Soviet propaganda literature, which was interesting. Yes. He had tons of left wing and right wing, mostly left wing actually, and he was not left wing, but- That was back when they were creative, when people on the left actually were artists and thinkers, and they were open-minded. He would always defend people whose politics he hated if they were creative. He would say, this guy's an asshole, I think these ideas are horrible, but man, look, the songs he wrote, or the novels he produced, do you remember that? Yes. Very well. Clearly. Yes. That counted in your favor. Yes. Huh. And that's kind of gone. It seems like it. So I didn't even know this until- I can't believe we're actually doing this interview. I'm so glad. But- I'm so glad to- Thank you. Could I ask you an Alb question, by the way? Of course. Of course. Bass and nicotine products in the universe. Well, thank you, Buck. I'm glad you noticed. And yes, I did. And I'm generally- this is the problem I have. When I'm talking- I'm generally double barreling, or sometimes triple barreling? Those are nines? Yes. I'm looking forward to the 12s. So in the question of nicotine, would you say- And I know it's hard to assess yourself, but would you say you dick around? If I like it, I like it. I really like this a lot. Although it's- so this is the question I have. Where does one tuck it? I know where people tuck the zin. Yeah. They get that. They stuff it. Yes, they stuff it. By the way, they should be more upfront on the labeling on the zin. I know. They should actually tell you that. That's why it tastes like shit. That's why it's like dehydrated. They forget to tell you it needs mucosa, but a particular type of mucosa to activate. Yeah, they got it wrong. I think they're expecting the bungalow deshi guy in the convenience store to tell you to hand you the KY and the surgical glove and just be like, I think you know how this works. It's like when they have those little crack pipes at the counter with the flower in them and they're like, no, it's not a crack pipe. I think they're- It's an incense burner. It's a whistle. I think they're expecting like, if you're using zin, you know how this works. Yes. That's a good point. That's why I actually feel like a bit of an amateur asking this, but I talk to people in all of a sudden. I feel like my Biden, my upper palate is like coming out. Your Biden is so- Biden, you know, like the fake teeth I have up here. Anyway, sorry. I try to rotate them around because there are parts of my gums that get neglected. Yes. I believe in kind of sharing the wealth. Yes. Plus there are different taste buds throughout the entire topography of your tongue and cheek. 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It loads up to three times faster, so you get much happier customers at unbeatable price. It is easy, peasy way to get hardworking website. That is nice, nice, nice. Try Aionos. Your digital partner at aionos.co.uk. Are you surprised since we're only really a year apart? So we grew up and our father always treated us the same. There was never like, listen to your brother. It was a fully egalitarian household in a way that also doesn't exist any more. I'm sure that was frustrating as the old system. I never even questioned it. It was the same bed time, same rules. There were never any difference at all in the way that he treated us. Same buddies. Which is one of the reasons we've always gotten along our whole lives because he treated us fairly. By the way, if you want to make people hate each other, treat them unfairly. Oh, I've noticed. Like Institute Affirmative Action or DEI and you will have serious race problems. But we never had anything like that. It was a pure meritocracy in our house with a quality at the center of it. But the most intuitive accidental father there has ever been. I mean, this was a man who did not strive to be a dad. No. Any ended up being pretty much the best father ever. The details of my conception of always been a little bit hazy, but I did get the... I don't think they were legal. I don't want to know. And I'm sure they were creative. Everyone knew it was probably the most bad one. I know. I can't... Sorry. I can't even think about it. But my strong impression just from like comments picked up over the years is that it was not intentional at all. Like the whole thing was not intentional. It got that sense. It was intentional by God. Yeah. It was God's point. Totally a good. The closest I ever got to asking Papa about it was he obviously married to a complete lunatic and he was such a smart person and he really understood women and loved women and really paid close attention to women. Why do you love him? They loved him. He loved them not just in carnal ways, but like he thought they were really interesting. I listened to them all the time. And he had such deep wisdom about women. And so I once... Boy, he wasn't that true. He was the deepest unwomen and it was out of love. Like true love. He thought they were amazing. But and he also loved them in other ways. But whatever. But anyway, I once said to him like, given your deep knowledge of women, how could you have married a really crazy one? Like how did you do that? And he goes, they're upsets. That's who he said. I was like, I don't want to hear anymore. She was currently never boring. Right. No, I guess that was it. You know, I go with... Yeah. Well, they're never boring once you engage with them. They're like amazing. But she had a lot to say. Yeah. Especially in public settings. Yeah, I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't even get it. I'm sorry. I don't even know where we were. One thing I wanted to ask you was when we were kids and like everyone in our family, I know this is like so forbidden. This is more forbidden than Israel. But like everyone in our family smokes cigarettes like everybody and everyone, they knew smoke cigarettes. And like the question was filter or non-filter. And of course, our family was strongly on the non-filter side because like air straight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. I used to call them straight. Yeah. As I remember, camel's straights are the best cigarette ever made. Yeah. That's literally true. And pop it always say it's important not to have a filter in your cigarette because when you're behind enemy lines, you can feel strip it. You can feel strip it. Yeah. You can feel strip it. You break the butt. Done it many times. Roll up the paper flick it away. Then the enemy will never know. You were smoking American cigarettes. They might they don't only know you're American. If you died and they saw your dental work. It didn't make a lot of sense. But anyway, but the in our family, they were, you know, people were very strongly in favor of cigarettes in tobacco. It sounds so forbidden now. But and then we were all convinced this is like so bad because America is killing itself. And if we can only get people off this, everyone's going to live forever. Is it a little weird? And I'm not, I don't smoke. I'm not endorsing smoking that strongly. But I'm considering going back to actually. But whatever. And for this, for this guy reached yesterday, I literally stepped over a dog that was talking to my girl, stepped over a dog to join her in a booth in a restaurant and I reached in my pocket to grab my zip. It's been 12 years since I've had a zip on my pocket. Seriously, I was about to let us smoke. We'd had a pizza. It was fantastic. And I was I know what's going to cap this off a camel straight. Can you even buy them anymore? Even in South Carolina. I'm lying. I actually know. Even in tobacco states, do you know how much it costs? Oh my gosh. For Deca Circe, how much? It's 12 bucks in South Carolina. It's $21 in the district of Columbia. Yeah. $20 bucks for Deca Smokes. I walked into a circle. Okay. The other day, my girl still smokes. God bless her. And I walked in and I bought her some cigarettes and the guy said, okay. And I laughed. I pulled out my wallet and I said, it's funny. What's funny? And I said, that's what the guy said. I said, well, I've been buying cigarettes since I was 11. And they cost a dollar. Do you think it's funny to make fun of people in the retail business? So dude, I'm not making fun of you. I'm making fun of the stupid rules. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have no sense of humor? But you can buy Ben's Hodeb, Diasa Pean's cheap. You can buy weed in any store. You can buy it online. You're encouraged to smoke pot. You're encouraged to do mushrooms. You're encouraged to do mascara or any other stuff. But you're the greatest pariah in America. You probably encourage, well, you are encouraged to like have touchy-feely love with the people in your gender. But if you're a cigarette smoker, you're literally the dirtiest pariah in America. Actually, that attitude is overwhelming now. But it was still around 12 years ago when I quit smoking. And if it hadn't been, I would have quit smoking probably 15 years ago. I would have it. I mean, the obvious. So you smoked in defiance. I did. I smoked aggressively with joy. I did. I loved smoking. And it made me smarter. It made me nicer. Yeah. It made me a lot happier. Not only your constant companion, but also Blake's self-defense weapon or an aggressive weapon. If you've got a lit cigarette on you, you're a force to be reckoned with. I would say, plus are you ever alone when you have a cigarette? No. You sound so much like our father. Because he, of course, he did once wheeled a cigarette in self-defense. I had to do that too. You did it too? I most certainly did. Well, maybe not on someone's cheek, but on their rest, I held their hand. Because he was holding my hand. I remember. It was like my second job. He was a guy who had a married guy, Christian, self-evowed, loudly, Christian. And he had cute kids and a nice wife. And he like put his hand on my knee. And I said, can you move your hand, please? And he didn't? What, he's hitting on you? Yeah. At a company picnic. Like the first week I was on the job. And I said, please, remove your hand from my knee. And he didn't. So I grabbed his hand. Grabbed his wrist and put my cigarette at on his hand. It was a Saturday afternoon. And I had had some cocktails. But I also felt completely justified in doing that. I did. He pulled his hand away. And I remember started going down this rabbit hole. But I thought about it so really on Sunday and Monday morning as I was going into the office and that there could be real repercussions for doing this. He was like the chief of staff of the organization. I was a political organization and he wheeled it a lot of power. And I went in and I remember I was doing some copying some document and I was standing in the break room next to the Xerox machine. And he came up to me and he said, can't believe you put a cigarette out of my hand. I said, I can't believe you touched me and he wouldn't let go. That was it. And we had like a staring contest. And then he like, you know, was lip curled and he looked down and walked out. I never heard anything about it. He never told anyone. Right. So I think it is fair. I think that's called gay bashing. No, I think you are recklessly or yeah, you're without proper defense when you don't have a cigarette. You should have a cigarette with you at all times, even if you don't smoke. That's my attitude. Seriously, I want to bring back smoking because actually smoking without the filter is probably pretty flippin good for you. I have a lot of views on this. I don't want to articulate because I don't want to. I'm crazy. But I tend to I mean, we were certainly raised thinking that and our father considered filters like a really bad thing. And it's, you know, smoking does you know, whatever our real mother to have lung cancer. You know, you can and she's smoked on filtered palmels. She engaged in some other exercise. Yeah, well, that's it. I think when you're in the dark side and you get cancer, it makes sense. What do you mean? I think if you lead a life of extreme narcissism, yes. And you are completely self focused. And one, it's unhealthy to it's unhealthy outlook and the people around you suffer. Yes. But I can't imagine you as an individual don't suffer. And now that I'm 54 and I'm old enough to actually witness people who've lived their lives this way. And I mean self focused all the time. Not one of them is healthy. Yeah. Physically, mentally, it's stifled, it kills something in someone. It's like, it's like, I'm not to attack people who aren't able to have children, but people who've chose men, who've chosen not to have children. They reach a certain age and they are intractable in ways that are damaging to them and those around them. She was not a man, but she had that same problem. And I think, I think she like was drowning in like me. Yeah, drowning in like me. Exactly. Totally is fixated on herself. So you've made reference to dogs. You've conceded that you have five. You think five is the perfect number. You were describing your childhood and you put it out the presence, the omnipresence of dogs. And as a highlight, why are dogs important? Well, dogs, I think I've thought a lot about this aspect raising children with dogs. I think it's important because your children are the center of your universe as they should be. Right. But the last thing you want to do is convey that to your children. I mean, that's a good way to fuck up your children. So having dogs around and instills in them, they have their first, my first loving relationships were with my very small family of which you're half and dogs. We had a lot of dogs around all the tall that's up. And there are other people, I mean, have written endlessly and talked endlessly about how wonderful dogs are, but I don't think they talk enough about how wise dogs are and how dogs are clued into like a communications channel that most people are not picking up. My dogs know what I'm going to do long before I do it. They know exactly my intentions. It's weird. If I'm working in my office and I've got four dog beds in my office underneath the desk. And if I get up to go, where does the fifth dog go? Three of them are shamefully small. So two of them, two of them, anybody else's brood, I'd say those are pseudo dogs, but actually one of my small dogs is an incredible relentless. Actually, you know her. She's a gift for me. Yes. She is a hunting dog. That's my defense. She's a hunting dog. She's got autism. Yep. Bad. Bad. She is the most well-meaning. Yes, she is. She means well. 100% good natured and happy. Pretty good in the well field, I will say. Yep. She also has unairing aim. She will hit you right in center mass every time she sees you. I have more scars from that dog on my face. In fact, in the morning, when I wake up, I have now started putting lightning collars on three of the five before I even let them into the backyard, which is actually kind of impressive because it's dark. I've had no coffee. I'm usually naked. And I'm affixing lightning collars to three dogs. One of them continually bounces up and slams me in the face with her snout. Yeah. It's amazing. Anyway, dogs are an endless, endless source of joy and effect. Well, actually, even today, I was telling because it's Christmas or everyone's at the house or a lot of people at the house, your relatives are at the house. And Uncle Bucks come out. Oh, is he bringing, and because I've never seen you travel, I don't think a single time ever in life without at least one dog. You always bring at least one dog. But you're dogless today. She's kind of vocal and she's not very respectful to expensive camera equipment or genitals. Yeah. So if I was a smoker, it'd be great because then keep her at back. But um, all she'd need is about 6,000 cigarette burns. And then I know, I don't think that would work. No, I don't think it would either. But you are surrounded by dogs. You work with dogs. As I just said, you travel with dogs. You're you are inseparable in the minds of everyone who knows you from dogs. They have great insight. You said that's one of the main reasons they improve our lives. I think so. I mean, I I talked to my dogs and they understand me. My dogs have actually a very a better understanding of the English language than I think most people I deal with outside of this room. Um, they're so much smarter than people give them credit for and wise and kind. And of course, it does remind me of the the great little joke. Lock your dog and your wife in the trunk of the car. Come back after three days and see who's grateful. The answer to that is always not your wife. Um, so they're forgiving. They are they are actually the essence of purity, I think. They're even though they're capable. They're not capable of a hardifice. A dog will never pretend to be happy when it's not. And they have no, um, no sense of vanity. They're they're perfectly willing to display their immediate and current emotion at all times. And their emotions are almost exclusively loving. Uh, now I have a predator. I have a three-legged predator. What a wonderful, a wonderful description boy. I couldn't have matched that. Well, it's true. Oh, it's so true. I mean, what I have five dogs at my house right now, two dogs do that. Um, so you're winning that you're winning the grand dog competition. I would say I'm not about to render an opinion about which is best. But I can't say not to make this into a cultural thing. But and I know that there are other, I'm sure that there are other cultures that feel the same way. I don't know what they might be, but the culture that we grew up in, which was a culture, was, I mean, none of these were even questioned like dogs and other things. Politeness, bravery, loyalty, but dogs were in that lit like the that was stung question. Dogs were at the center of the culture, not just the family, but the culture we grew up in very much. Oh, very much. So I never saw our father cry except when our dogs died. And I got a little more emotional as I've gotten older. So I've occasionally shed a tear about something other than a dog dying. But I've never been as affected by death as my various dogs death. And I'm also convinced, convinced, 100% that my capacity for joy is less than it was before my last dog died. But I'm also convinced 100% that we will see them all again. We will be reunited. I have a particular dog that you know who was what's the phrase you use a lifetime dog or the the actual dog. And you know now you agree that everyone has one of those. If you have enough dogs, there's always a dog where you're like, I'm never going to have a dog like this again. Yes. And boy, do I love my dogs? And an unlike raising children where you could never indicate which one of your children is your favorite. Not that that ever exists. No. With dogs, I think it's completely the opposite. My strategy is to convey to each and every one of my dogs privately that they are my favorite. So every one of my dogs is going around me like, I'm dead. It's favorite. I know you engage in a little bit of that. You've got to. Anyway, I knew that my children by the way, they all have that impression. I hope so. They are. But yeah, you had a dog. You had that lifetime dog. I have many pictures of that dog on my phone because I was not my dog, but I did. I felt real love for that dog. And my favorite picture of that dog was called Bella was in the dog park in the Rich Lady dog park directly across street from her house in Washington. We both used every day and they're always a million ladies in the party. You know, they're all nice. I don't want to attack anybody, but they're all a little bit uptight. Yeah. Went to HPS, but another stangumb to raise their kids very methodically. Let me look it up. Let me look it up. And your dogs have never kind of been with that program at all. They're off leash dogs. They are off leash dogs. And that one dog was an amazing hunter, finished spits. Yes. And this dog had killed a squirrel and has in her mouth the squirrels like, you know, question was a black squirrel, black squirrel. And she was this deep beautiful red and just the contact and the contrast from a photographic perspective was powerful. I had I had that on my screensaver for for years until my son got old enough to notice that his picture wasn't on that. Can I tell my one dog park story, which is like family lore, which is like my favorite story, which I've told at many dinner parties about you, which one? It's not a bad one. No, so you were at war. So in DC, of course, our parks, it's a federal zone. So our parks are policed by park police, actual park police. Yes. Sometimes that are horseback. Yes. And this specific dog park was, I mean, when I say it was across street from my house, like I could see it from my bed was right there. No, it was extensive. It went miles actually. We even amazing park system in Washington. And this is called this was called battery kimble. Yes. It was a civil war battery. Beautiful park, beautiful part of the city. And you would walk your dogs there every day. And you had a million dogs as always. And you never leash them because you're a free man. And this is America. And they're well behaved. And they don't bother other people. Well, generally, pretty responsive dogs. Yeah, they call the wildlife a little bit. Oh, that's for sure. Well, that's, I don't know, that's sort of your responsibility when you're running. It is the food chain, isn't it? I'm sorry. If you can't handle it, get out of the park. Dude, I'm with you. And I remember when this happened, but like every woman in the neighborhood is probably still talking about it. Oh, this isn't a city rife with all sorts of other crime. So every time I know it's not this story, but every time I was accosted by someone and the next door that's silly next door online thing, free COVID in a city that has overwhelming physical and property crimes. The number of the most prevalent complaint on that list surf. Oh, I saw someone walking without a leash. And this is a terrible thing. And literally, that would garner the most commentary from any next door post. We need better rich people in this country. Yes. That's the number one thing we need. Yes. Yes. Well, they need some hardship because complaining about shit like that is not only picky, but like repulsive. It is repulsive. I totally agree. And they have no self awareness at all. And they're all like that. But anyway, my universal response, I'm starting to rupture my universal response to them and to authorities who would occasionally and cost me would be so relieved. You've solved all the other problems in DC. All the other crimes are no rapes or no arm robberies. CVS isn't being ransacked on a daily basis. Like, thank you. I really appreciate. I'm so glad you solved that problem. Now we can deal with lesser crimes like leashes. They did not appreciate the lecture. And after many such lectures from you, they decided to arrest you. And they told you that if we catch you again without a leash, you're going to jail. Sir. Sir. And then you get approached by a couple of these officers. I think on horseback. I was walking through a beautiful meadow at about 10, 30 in the morning. Absolutely deserted. And I had four dogs with me. And we got all the way to the end of the meadow. And I heard someone say, Hey, hey, someone clearly yelling not in not like they needed help, but like they were trying to get my attention. I'm sorry. I don't respond to that. And so I turned and I saw it was on a slope this meadow. And I can see these blue helmets coming up the meadow. So they were the horses weren't even visible. Helmet. Helmet. So I kept walking. And then I was, you went peacekeepers. Exactly. So I kept walking. And then I was in the middle of the forest on a small beautiful path. And I kept hearing this female male voice, hard to determine was rather masculine. But but also flipping hysterical. So it could only have been a soy boy with a gun or very masculine check. And it was it turned out to be three cops, three park policemen on beautiful very expensive horses with tidy helmets on. And they yelled at me for a good half mile. They finally caught up to me. And when she when they were about when this trio was about to made them just like yell at you and chase completely ignore them. I'm sorry. It's my park. I'm a federal taxpayer. I also live in DC. This is right. Don't we fund that park? We fund their salaries. I'm sorry. I have a bit of a sense of entitlement about two things nicotine and dogs. Yeah. And that's it. And this was so I was mining my own business in our park. And so they were persistent and yelling. And when they got to be about 75 yards away, she lost her cool completely. And she yelled in sense stop or I'll taste your dog. I'll taste your dog. So I'm sorry. That's just too much for me. So I said yell because they were so far away. And you're not going to fucking taste my dog. You do that. You know, a real problem. And so they were taken and backed by it a little bit. And they find the came they had met a man in a while in DC. I guess not. I mean too busy solving all the other crimes. So they got they finally got up to me. And it was a very authoritative squat muscular woman who was the authority figure and then two men men. And who were embarrassed. And I made them further embarrassed because I said this first of all don't speak to me like that. Don't ever speak to me like that. Don't threaten my child. And she didn't like that. But she backed down a little bit. I actually had the I had the moral authority. I was in the right. And they were absolutely in the wrong. And I did what you're supposed to do in a situation like that is I met and exceeded their aggression. Significantly. And to the point where I asked their badge numbers as their full names give it to me now and pull down my phone. I was totally obnoxious. But also in the right. And I said to those men, how can you tolerate this? Well, she's your boss. She's telling you, oh, and these guys literally at the end of it. This is probably a three or four minute exchange. And they ended up they gave up. And they walked away. And I was on this beautiful ledge that had railroad ties every three or four feet going down into this stream into this valley. You have no idea you're in the middle of DC is such a incredible heart. They agree. It's incredible. And they went ahead of me. She in the front steamed literally coming off her. And then these two extremely embarrassed men. And they started going down. Well, their horses decided this would be a great opportunity to leave some indelible artwork on the path. And a worse when a horse goes to the bathroom. It's not a subtle thing. No, especially when they're walking down a hill. So they deposited, I don't know, 26, 27 pounds of artwork right there on the path. So they and they had to go slow because it was one of these winding paths with with railroad ties. And they were stuck. So they were like slowly trying to go down and I was yelling at them the whole time. Hey, pick that up. What's wrong with you? I can't believe you're leaving that behind. Who's going to clean up after you? Oh, I am so surprised. Actually, they did not shoot me. I was expecting it. Actually, I really was worth it. It was so worth it. And actually, I was enraged. I was still enraged at the point where, excuse me, my Biden is coming out again. By the time I got back to my car and that was probably 15 minutes later. I remember this clearly. I had gone to one of the best sandwich stops. I had a meeting downtown. And I was running my dogs first. And it was I had stopped and I'd gotten some clam chowder from, uh, Boba Lair's place. I can't think of it. He's from Jeddies. And I had a container of clam chowder. Yeah, they had good chowder. So agitated. By the time I got even by the time I got back to my car, which was like 15 or 20 minutes later, I opened up the top of the clam chowder and promptly launched it into the air where it came and landed on my dashboard directly in the air conditioning unit. In fact, that Chevy Tahoe smelled like clam chowder for literally the next three years. It was discussed until Patrick flipped it on. Until Patrick flipped it in Brogues neck. But I was I don't normally hold on to anger for very long. I've got like a reasonably quick and I can get pretty hot, but it dissipates fast. This didn't I was still mad 20, 25 minutes later. And I drove I think I pushed my meeting back. I had to drive downtown. I think I texted them. I was like, I had a bit of an emergency. I'm going to be a half an hour late. And I drove around the entire perimeter, at least that Western perimeter of that park looking for the telltale sign of the the horse carriage, because I actually really did want to record their names and make a formal complaint. I thought it would have gone anywhere, but a right a piece about it. I don't know. But it would have made me happier. I didn't find them. I look for them. So everyone I should say for the fifth time in our tiny little very cohesive neighborhood where we spent most of our lives on and know every single person almost everybody disapproved of this kind of behavior from you, because it was disruptive and like it wasn't you weren't getting in line with everybody. I never of course felt that way because we grew up together with the same attitudes. But now I think that if like eight more people in our neighborhood and 800,000 more people in our country had taken that attitude, we'd be in much better shape than we are now. Amen. Amen. I think three more people would have been able to dominate that town with that dominate that neighborhood. You're totally right. Because people are not some great student of human behavior, but I do observe it. And I think that people again, as we talked about earlier, I think people who are cowardly hate themselves for it. Yes. And are hostile towards those who express themselves or embrace their freedom in America? Land of the free home of the brave like I mean not anymore clearly. And but I think there are people are waiting to be galvanized by someone who's willing to say I'm not saying I'm that person, but they need someone to rally around. Someone Trump was obviously that guy that's obviously part of Trump's appeal that he was that you know, hey, fuck you. This is what I believe and I'm not going to back down kind of guy. And I think our country used to be full of people like that. Yes, it did. And they were they were real heroes in this country. This country didn't have an easy and easy time of it for the first couple hundred years. And the only people who exercised real power and authority were men who were courageous and willing to speak their mind and willing to follow through also and kind of other people. But whatever leadership qualities they usually don't see in America that often, I don't. I mean, I couldn't agree more. And one of the hallmarks of that kind of society is decency. One of the things you notice about brave men or father being the bravest person I think other was ever met. It was 84 years old. Never saw him one time express fear in any situation. Physically and literally nothing. I saw if you were, you know, he could have any did, including when he died totally unafraid, totally uncomplaining, totally unmedicated, totally undiminished, totally undiminished, both of us were there. So yes, no, I agree with that. But that was the twin to that was the flip side of his decency and kindness. He didn't hate himself. He had no reason to. And if you made a mistake or did something wrong, which he did, he'd be like, wow, I did something wrong. I'm really sorry. And he was genuinely inquisitive with other people and kind and interested, always and interested. Oh, his favorite thing was talking to. I mean, he loved to talk and he told the best stories around. But he loved people. And oh, he get back from dinner parties. So we're kids. I'll never forget. He always was always a woman. Of course, because you as a man, you sit next to a woman at a dinner party. Thank God. I met the most amazing woman she would grow up in some weird country and did this. And her dad was in the OSS and you know, so that was a theme. It was always some intrigue. Always, always. But he was so interested in other people. I can so passionate about it. Like their stories were like as exciting to him as his story. Yes. Oh, we paid attention to the details. Very close attention. Yes. He was an amazing listener because he was really interested. Anyway, I think his decency, his love of children, animals, his family, his wife, people he sat next to a dinner party. It's like that was all related to his total fearlessness. Yes. In a way. Yes. Do you know it? I can't quite articulate it. But I know. I think you did. But do you know, nobody was so self-confident because he used all the talents that God gave him to the extent that he was able. I mean, he never passed up an opportunity ever anywhere to do anything interesting or adventurous. That is literally true. And that was like his law. And it's so attractive. And it's that was his law. Yeah, that was his law. Have an interesting life. That's like the only instruction I got. Me too. Yeah. And he constantly, I mean, I remember when you got thrown out of boarding school and the only family drama I ever remember remember was would pop be able to force you to join the French foreign Legion. And he was dead set, enforcing you to do that in case you don't remember. I do remember. And I don't remember being resistant to it. It wasn't you. No, I'm aware. Yeah. And that's no one else who was very resistant to it. You can't do that to him. You weren't against it, but like you were seven when you got tossed hold to you. 17 maybe I was 17. Yep. And he checked at the head office in Marseille. I'll never forget this. And 17 was old enough to join the French foreign Legion. And I'll never forget coming home for Christmas or Easter or some vacation where we were all home in Georgetown. And he was like, well, your brother could enjoy the French foreign Legion. And I was like, it's this real real. You're like, yep, he fucked up at school. He got thrown out of boarding school. He's going to the French foreign Legion. And it's a six year commitment. But the time he gets till only be 23. And imagine, people see it always friends. I spent six years in the French foreign Legion. I've got a fake name and a new passport and I served in Djibouti. It wasn't these wars. And isn't that great? And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. And you're like, yeah, I'm totally. Thank God for female wisdom and strength. Actually, I think I think it would have been great. I probably wouldn't have survived it. But no, thank God for my heart. He was so all in. I'll never forget. Oh, man. I hear new people who had done it. Oh, yes. Speaking of without even getting into it, but I think both of us have taken an awful lot of shit about whatever he did for a living. And it's not even totally clear. But let me just ask a general question, not about him, but about sort of the world that you grew up in. You were what, 14 when we moved to Georgetown, maybe ish. 13. 13. So you spent your entire life in Northwest DC. Like you never left, except to go to Maine, obviously. But, but like full time, you're living there. And in a world that I mean, you literally lived in the house that our father purchased from CF, Serene Cash. Yes. Right. And everybody in our world was involved in that kind of stuff. And, and then you have had jobs where you rubbed up against people in the Intel world. Yes. A lot of jobs. Though, comment probably in DC. But yes, that's the point actually that I'm making. Yeah, everybody. I wouldn't bring this up. Well, by this point in the conversation, I think everyone knows you're not working for the CIA. Hey, you're not compliant enough. Have you seen my attacks or terms? Yes. No, but who has? But I guess my question is, did you know until relatively recently, what a huge role Intel agencies foreign and domestic played in the life of our country, not just the political life, but the civic life, the cultural life, did you know that? No. And it reminds me what you said a little earlier in this conversation about not being aware of what's going on around you. Yes. You're steeped in it. Of course. And I worked for some, I worked for a corporate intelligence firm that was founded by all former Spooks. And I knew personally, yes. Good guys. Great guys. Excellent shots too. We hunted with that. Holy smokes. Where they, yeah. And also one of them died like the best death ever. Had grandchildren, his children were married, walked out of his on K Street, walked out of his accountant's office, having received good news and had a massive, hard like life ending heart attack right there on K Street, brought to the primary. Yeah. Like 76. Yeah. I mean, he was a great man. He was a great man. But Intel guy, Intel guy. Sorry, I think it's also important to mention. My attitude has changed like so many because of COVID, but even a little bit before that, I just had taken it on faith that we had a good government that was well meaning that makes mistakes. But there was an answerable to the people. I actually always thought that growing up. Yeah. I generally didn't think what I heard from the government was a lie. I didn't think it was some manipulative lie. I remember, I mean, the, the most important thing that went on in our lives as we were growing up, the most important enduring conflict was the iron curtain and communism. And I remember talking with you and others all the time about those poor people who live in the Soviet Union who have no access to real news. They have tasks and they have, Zvestia was Zvestia, Prouda. And they don't have the freedom to go to church. And they, obviously, they're economy sucks because it's managed by a government and that never works. But really, they didn't have access to accurate information. Right. They had no access to any real news. And further, they had been taught as a society terrible things about America and Americans. And specifically, we used to also talk after the iron curtain came down, had the same attitude about North Korea. Like here are these poor, emaciated captives who can't leave their own country, who don't, who think these terrible and untrue things about Americans. And it was only a couple years ago that I suddenly realized I had this epiphany. We're fucking North Korea. We are North Koreans. And so much of what the government has told us throughout our lives about big events and small events are simply not true, not just massaged, but like 180 degrees from truth and reality. Once you have that realization, it's very unsettling and disperating. I think and scary. Obviously, the election of 2020 brought it into focus all of the suppression of Twitter and the New York Postpies from Miranda divine on Hunter Biden. And that's all the false news about masks and the Vax and everything else. I mean, the list is endless and go on and on. But no, to answer your question, I was not aware of it. I didn't pay attention to it. I didn't suspect it. And I really had no reason to suspect it actually because life was different even a decade ago in America. And certainly in Washington. And now they've just, it seems a certain error of desperation or something that they're, they're clamping down to such an aggressive degree even with Trump in the White House, which I wish someone would explain to me. I have my theories. But anyway, um, and the fact that they used to be good liars, this is the thing I find scariest is they used to tell compelling, thought out, well fashioned, plausible lies. And they no longer do that. Now it's just, hey, this is it. And you either accept it or shut the fuck up and we'll put you in prison and we'll take all your liberties away. And I do think it's a kin to finding, you know, the great debate, are you going to look under the bed and or you're going to jump across the room and leave the door? It's like, once you look under the bed, he might actually find the monster. And now it's clear that our government is the monster and the intelligence agencies are hard to monster. And once you've seen it, you can't really not unsee it. Yes. And that's really unsettling. So nicely put, um, that's so nicely put. Yeah. That has been, I try to talk about it too much because it's obviously way too personal. But that, but the realization about the Intel agencies has been one of the really big things for me. I just, I can hardly even believe it. I can hardly believe, I know that sounds stupid, but it doesn't, but it grows out of a totally different understanding of the US government. Yes. And I always thought it was inefficient. And the problem with US government was there, you know, we're a lot of lazy people with guaranteed jobs and like big bureaucracy's don't function very well. They're just, they just don't work. But the spirit that animates them, which is a spirit to protect and improve the country is kind of unquestioned. They're not trying to convert the country. That's what I'm saying. Maybe at worst they don't care. Right. And occasionally you have a Soviet or Cuban spy, but that's like really far out. You know what I mean? Or some drunk FBI agent with having an affair with cell secrets because he needs the money, but like human flaws, human, thank you human flaws. But never that this whole, that there be huge parts of this whole enterprise that are working to destroy the society like I'd never even occurred to me. No, no, me either. And but it's clear that that's what's going on. It's clear. Yeah. It couldn't be clearer. And it's accelerating. It's not decelerating. No. No. Yeah. And it's demonic. It is. And I actually don't even understand why that obvious observation, that obvious conclusion makes people, I guess it's a religious question. I don't know why it makes people not just uncomfortable. It makes people super hostile if you mention that certain motivations are demonic and that there are demons among us. I think that's, I've always known that. I've just known that it's just obvious. I've known it my whole life. It is obvious. You don't have to be around. It's like being always as our father always said, trust your dog sense. And you talk about it. Everybody has it. All you have to do is pay attention to it. It doesn't even need to be that finally calibrated. I mean, if you have a weird feeling about a situation or about a person, you know, you're probably right. Yes. Trust it. Yeah. Trust it. It's not random. No. Not at all. And every human has also had weird out of the blue impulses to do things that go against their nature. And all the time, this happens to me. Thank God. It happens to me a lot, especially when I'm out in nature with my dogs. Swear I can clear my head, swear I can relax and think away from my phone. I get all sorts of unbidden, unsolicited thoughts, impulses that I follow. Good things. Call this person. Write this. Do this. And if I didn't have that in my life, I would be a mess. I would be more of a man, whatever. And it would. So it's not just, so I think it's not just demonic and it's not just dark stuff that acts on us. Yes, very much so. So I, boy, if I had the same experience, I guess my whole life, but I didn't recognize it for what it was until pretty recently. Yeah. And I certainly would never, you know, as a wasp, I would never mention it. Because you're not like that's one thing you're not. That's what to talk about your spiritual views, period. In fact, in fact, it's such a rarity. I remember exactly where I was when I first had this conversation, and it was with you, and it was in the state of Maine, which is obviously wonderful, but also something about the state of Maine is very close to whatever's going on around us that we can't see. Exactly. It's happening in Maine a lot more than anywhere else. The membrane is thinner in Maine between this world and the next. There's no question about that. It's not very much. It's not a light state. No, it's a heavy state. There's a reason Stephen King when he at one point had talent and one point had a god-given talent, because you can't read his early stuff. You can't read the stand without saying this guy is using God-given talent. Oh, there's a reason why all those books actually take place in Maine. It's not just because he's from Maine. It's because something going on in Maine. That's been, I think, recognized for a long time. It exceeds my understanding. I can't even guess. I do know that the first transatlantic television signal was broadcast from Maine. You know, in a town very close. It's still there. It's still there. I hunted next to it. I flew over it. Yeah. Patrick. But the point is, there's something about its geographic location, its geography as well that I don't know. There's something about it. Yes. But yeah, we grew up in a world and in a culture that did not welcome conversations about spiritual matters, the transcendent. No. Yeah. No. That was a huge week. Didn't talk about death. No. Didn't talk about illness. There were no support groups around this. I remember in the 80s, there was this black, because Georgetown had been black or partly black, like a hundred years ago or something. There was a black church on our street. Do you remember that? Well, like four blocks down on N Street in Georgetown. Of course, I didn't even know it was there, but our father knew it was there. It's actually the end of Dunbarton. It was the end of Dunbarton. Sorry. One block up. He was like, he just loved black church. Do you remember getting dragged to black church with that? I loved it, actually. I was never resistant to it. You'll never find nicer people with better music, great food, and a super welcoming attitude. I couldn't agree more. As I think church was supposed to be. It's such a departure from the, I won't mention the name of the church, because I know family members of ours still go there, but I was baptized there. And it was just too, right. It was beautiful architecturally. And that's about what it had to recommend. Yeah. The pews had a nice patina from hundreds of years. For the frozen chosen. Yeah, no, there's no question, but he would drag us to the black church at least once or twice here. Let's go to Eastrup to black church. They were always a little confused by what we were doing there, but he was so into it. They're on board though. They were out. No, they were totally up. No, to give them credit. They couldn't have been nicer. And they were like old-fashioned Washington Black people, like the definition of like respectful middle class people. And, but he liked it because they were just like, hauling, like they weren't beating around the bush. Like they're for, they're for Jesus. Yes. And I think that's the only... On a bash. Yeah. And I think those were the, that was the only contact I ever had in my young life with Jesus at all. What people talking about Jesus. Yes. Do you feel it? 100%. No, no, no. I mean, I've had, I've had a lot of reasons to have an awakening in my life. It was forced upon me. In so many ways, God has come into my life and changed things that needed to be changed. Yes. Ex-sized certain patterns and behaviors that needed to be that I never could have done on my own. Yeah. Ever. And yeah, I know. We both. I mean, I... So, yes, no, I didn't think about it enough. I always had a reflexive faith. I always knew God existed. I never questioned, but I didn't know a lot about... I still don't necessarily know a lot about the history of religion or the intricacies of certain scripture. But I read the Bible. I commune with other people. I celebrate God. I celebrate fellowship. And I celebrate Jesus on a bashfully. I mean, yeah. Other... Yeah. So how... I would say the other thing, the feature of the world that we grew up in was, you know, alcohol is part of it. Yes. It's a serious cocktail culture. Absolutely. My favorite food growing up was tonic water and camembert. It's a drink cocktail party that are housed. Skeptonic water and camembert. Roo, that's where that... You remember that? I remember that. Tonic water. That's when you know your parents are屈. A huge, too many cocktail parties. Not many six-year-olds drink tonic water. I wonder if any six-year-olds drink tonic water. I think people even drink gin and tonics anymore, but they did in our house growing up. Anyway. We've come from a long line of gin and tonic drinkers, but... Yeah. So we both got caught up in it and I would see you a little more enthusiastically than me. You were epic. I think it's the term people use now. But, and then, you know, you know, as anyone who drinks overly enthusiastically, the people who love him start to worry. And then you just like quit. Didn't go to rehab. No. I admire people to do. I think it's helpful. I'm not... I'm not criticizing it. No, no, no. I didn't think you were. I just actually had heard some fascinating stories of those, say, meetings. It's been years since I've been to one. But I did have some concerned friends who'd gone through this journey themselves and who pulled me in and I was receptive to listening. Not necessarily receptive to stopping, but receptive to learning more. And I was flirting with it. Flirting was stopping because you take those tests that they have and like answer 10 of these questions. And a few answer even three of them. Then you've got a drinking problem. And it was always like, I've answered yes on all 10. I could probably give you six more questions to ask. So, and I'd been... I'd had a few run-ins with the authorities. Quite a few. Actually, it had affected my life. Anybody asked you, oh, do you think alcohols affecting your life? Oh gosh. I don't know. Let me contemplate that. Oh. So... And I'd also reach... But principally what happened was my son was born. And that was a tough pregnancy, an early birth. And the moment I saw that child be born, I'd had a lot of preparation from you because you to have already had a couple of children and from others. But I... And it was an aspiration for me from the entirety of my life to be a father. But the moment I saw that child be born and they're purple and unattractive. My son urinated all over the doctors. It was great. So very proud of him. But I remember unbidden speaking of unbidden thoughts and emotions. The first thing that I thought when that child was born was, I'd fucking kill for this child. Yes. And I would do it with relish, like if someone ever... Someone ever threatened this child, I would... I mean, there's nothing I wouldn't do. So... Anyway, so he was born and he was young as a baby. My son has never seen me intoxicated. I'm happy to say. He's 24. I had my last cocktail 23 years ago and March coming up. Incredible. And talked about it and thought about it and had concerned people discuss it with me. And had dialed back. But then we had really an amazing, an epic weekend with my son's Godfather, a great friend of both of ours, who came in from New Orleans and had like three-day Bachnallion in Georgetown and got like physically ill and sort of my wife. And she had a full-on divine intervention where God like spoke to her, out loud and said enough. And and she... That was it. Removed it from her completely. It's incredible. Completely. And then I was sympathetic on board with it because not only was I trying to convince myself that I should lay off it for a while, was trying to convince her. And like most, she was resistant. And so that day I made the commitment, you know, I'm going to join her. But then one of my great friends was having a bachelor party like in two days. So I said, okay, well let's just get through this weekend. And then I'm committed. And I did. I had my last cocktail of the actual agement party of... Great guy. I'm spacing his name out. I think it was second. Oh, you know him. He's a wonderful guy. His marriage didn't last, but he's around. And he had a great party. And I had a couple cocktails, didn't get hammered. And then I said, that's it. Not doing it again. And... But it was divine intervention for me too because he removed not only the desire to drink, but he implanted like a revulsion for alcohol. Yes, I feel that. Physical revulsion where I could, to this day, 22 and a half years later, summon the taste of a great goose martini or summon the taste of like a three inch glass of maker's mark. And I could make myself vomit in like 15 seconds. And also for that first year, no one ever talks about this. At least I've never heard it. And we talk about this. That for that first year, I couldn't sleep sweating constantly, had horrible nightmares every night. And the enduring nightmare that I still have, occasionally I would say once a month, I'll be somewhere socially in my dream. And I'll be talking to someone and I'll just reach and have a cocktail. And I'll, as soon as it hits my mouth, I start sobbing in my dream and wake up really agitated and really upset with myself. But anyway, God removed the desire completely from me. And I've had a much better life sense. And I've never run, interestingly, I've never run. I could give you hours of stories about stupid and dangerous and destructive things I did as a drunk person. But I never have hooked up with an old friend that I haven't seen in like two decades, have a meal and they like order a drink and, oh, do you want a drink? And we'll say, no, actually, I quit drinking. I've never had someone say, what the fuck did you do that for? Really? You quit drinking? Like you've lived your own, no, no one's ever had that, that emotion. You're the only person I know who's crashed an airplane, a speedboat, a motorcycle, and multiple cars. And that's literally true. That's just a fact. And you're here. I think we differ on the definition of crashing. I did not crash the plane. It was a, well, with force landing, they call it. Okay. Okay. Well, force landing. There's some responsibility for sure, but the plane survived completely. Well, okay. I mean, clearing in a national force. I'm just saying, and by the way, I'm not blaming you for whatever mechanical error, forced your plane. But again, we can just take the plane out of it. We still have the motorcycle, the boat, and the cars. Yes. Yes. I also once fell asleep while flying an airplane from drinking. Yeah. Passed out in a really trafficked area. And I was aware that I was, you know, when you're really, really, really tired, you can't hide it from yourself. You can slap yourself in the face. You can pinch yourself. I was a smoker at the time. And I, you know, was chain smoking while flying. Ah, and I was in a traffic pattern. And I just couldn't keep my soap, not in an international airport. In someone else's airplane. Yeah. And I kept nodding off. Was anyone else in the plane? No. I was by myself. It was really terrifying. I wrote a piece about it actually for a friend of mine who also subsequently quit drinking and started like a web scene when those things were around. And yeah, it was pretty hilarious. I was asleep while flying an airplane. Multiple times. Multiple times. I was going on a local trip and I took off. I was tired. I was sleep deprived. I had a friend, you know, those friends who come and visit you. Oh, yes. And they never leave. And they're a great company. Amazing. Especially after like 5 p.m. Yeah. Yeah. And well, he stayed for like two weeks. And so we developed this, this great strategy where we'd go at we'd like drink all day in the beach and then go out to wildly hedonistic meal. And then we'd get back to my apartment in like two in the morning. And then he would stay up smoking and reading so he could make sure that I got up at 4.30 to go make it to the flight line. I was in flight school at the time. And so I did that for two weeks. He subsequently got food alcohol poisoning. I think I did too. But I was just exhausted. And but I love flying. And it was actually the only academic experience I've ever had that I was really passionate about. I love flying. And that was in a great flight school. I took it seriously. Not too seriously. Not seriously, not too quick drinking. But to sleep or to sleep. But yeah, I showed up at dawn. Flu, you know, places prone to massive fogmanks everywhere. It's flat. And sexually in this state on the Atlantic Ocean. And the flight school itself shares an international airport with like six carriers, big carriers. So it's got like a 10,500 foot runway. It's got north and south and east and west. It's got a lot of traffic. And so I was wary. I'm feeling you know tired or exhausted. But it wasn't until I took off that I thought this is bad. Like this is dangerous. Like I really can't focus. And I'm falling asleep. And so I went about 10 miles north and came back because I didn't want it to be super suspicious. Just take off. You have to basically declare an emergency to get back in the pattern in an international airport like that. So I went north for like 10, 12 miles and then called the approach. And so I was coming back and I have to identify why. And it was in the approach with like seven, 37 flying around. And other. It was a very high traffic airport. And I was on like a five mile downwind or crosswind trying to think whatever. I was on a long approach to this airport and communicating with the tower on the radio. And I would fall asleep in between communication. You know, Sesson, November 678 Echo, are you there? Sesson, November 678 Echo. Oh yeah, it was and I said a lot of prayers. And as I said, I smoked cigarettes in that plane. And I pinched myself. And I landed safely, excellent landing and got to the flight line and and turned the engine off. And rom play took an app in the plane for like an hour. It was bad. And then I got I had a motorcycle at that time too. And I hopped on my motorcycle and I went home and I was like, you got to go back to your real life man. It's like one of my oldest friends. You got to leave. I can't sustain this. So then you wind up your blackjack dealer on a riverboat, Mr. Sippie. You work for a couple different political candidates, presidential campaign. And all nice guys, I don't, you know, I see one thing like if you name, I'm not going to name them, you can if you want. But like people you thought were impressive 30 years ago in politics, they're also discredited now. I know it's sad. It is sad. I don't want to be mean. Not only discredited, but actually there was a much better stable of real candidates, real people. For one example, I briefly was a communication as director at the Maryland Republican Party for like six months. You were communication as director. Yes. Imagine a Maryland Republican party. It's like a different country. No, they were like 16 Republicans even then. But they could still raise some money and they could make some noise because there were no other Republicans. And actually it was great for me because it was the communication as director, which really means I was writing nasty press releases and trying to generate lots of news. And you know, it's a fully crept state. And so there's a lot to talk about. And no one's looking over your shoulder because it's Maryland. Like really? Right. So I'd write the most incendiary stuff and occasionally generate some news on it. But I had license to do that. And it was actually a really good, it was a really good launch patent. It was a nice brief experience I had. It was some really good people. They didn't have, you know, big aspirations. I don't think I don't think you could stay at the Maryland Republican Party. It's kind of interesting quickly. I started then and I've written for now, in 25 years, I love writing speeches and I write speeches for I've written speeches political candidates and aspiring political candidates and corporate heads. I love it. I think it's so fun and interesting. And I'm sure no one will do it anymore with the AI, but I hope that's not true. But anyway, whatever I could write good speeches. And one of the guys who actually was impressive in Maryland in the mid 90s was Michael Steele. Do you remember Michael Steele? Michael Steele, yeah. His sister married Mike Tyson. I did know that. I totally forgotten. He's such a chameleon. He's such an unimpressive person. No, it's hard to believe that I once thought he was impressive. He was articulate. He was, you know, I wasn't going to use Biden's, was he clean too? Yeah, he was clean, didn't smell bad, and he was articulate. I think that was Biden's quote Joe Biden. Yes. Yes. And he was. He's impressed. He's a tall man and he's got a lot of a lot of energy. And yes, like in your face looks you in the eye. That's totally great. A good handshaker. And he was going to be like the face of Republican success. And he had a failed Senate campaign. Whatever. 10, 12 years go by. And in a much different iteration in my life, I was writing still, but like doing more interesting and more lucrative things than the Maryland and Republican Party. And an old friend of mine named Lance Copsie, who was no longer around. I don't know if you remember him. He's a very well-rate guy. He's been gone like 15 years. He called me and said, Hey, I'm running Michael Steele's campaign for the RNC. Will you write some speeches for him? And I was like, Hell yeah. I love to do that. I got paid to do it. And I also believed in Michael Steele. And so I wrote Michael Steele's acceptance speech when he became the RNC chair. Not a huge deal, but like kind of fun. It was bigger than it was bigger than and and then he immediately like became reverted to type. And by which I mean corrupt politician and immediately blew like $800,000 on you know, redecorating his personal office. He demanded a private jet because he claimed that Obama was president. He claimed that he was Obama's counterpart on the Republican side in Obama had air force one and he needed to fly private. The incredible nuts at that guy. I mean he had balls. Yeah. But no interesting opinions and no, you know, principles, no foundation. And then he figured out he figured out the white guilt lever. Yeah. And he's like, I don't get a plane. Is that cuz I'm black? Are you saying that I'm lesser? In his defense wasn't Terry McAuliffe, the DNC guy at the time? Probably. So he was probably looking at Terry McAuliffe's like, right. Pretty good deal. Terry McAuliffe hadn't yet imported, you know, Chinese cars for visas yet, but he was living large. Man, I didn't even understand how corrupt that world was when we lived in it. So then speaking of you wind up working at, you know, basically the number two for a guy called Frank Lutz. Frank Lutz for those who haven't heard of Frank Lutz, he's still around. Oh, very much. Yeah. It was the the biggest pollster in the Republican party and more than just a pollster, he was like the message guy like, how do we communicate that, you know, cutting capital gains taxes for donors is part of the American dream. Yeah. Whatever it's in the Constitution. How do we soften all the environmental lunacy and make it palatable? Oh, let's call it climate change. You mean the fucking weather? No. Climate change. Did he come up with that? Came up with climate change. What? With death tax. Did he come up with climate change? Well, I say he, his team. I was part of his team for like six years and yes, I helped run that show with a couple of other very competent people. He, as you know, he's very complicated. He's like a walking decadent. He is occasionally brilliant. He's very smart, naturally. He's lazy. He's dirty. He's dishonest. Dirty. What do you mean dirty? His favorite food group is Thousand Island Dressing. And you just can't eat Thousand Island Dressing without getting it all over yourself. And the biologicals, which are supposed to be unmentionable, but with Frank or ever evident everywhere. I was disgusting. No, no, no, no. The personal hygiene is like non-existent. I get much more graphic. I can't even tell you what his nickname around the office was. This is a guy who's walking around with literally a dead racoon in his head. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'm sorry. So I don't skip on the hair piece. That's like rule one. I know. I know. But he was brilliant in his business because at least the business preposition that he had, which was he understood. I'm not sure if you remember. There was a time. Yeah, you really have to actually think back. There was a time in America where there was something called cable news. Yeah. I heard that. Yeah. People took it seriously. Yeah. And no one took it more seriously than Frank Lunds. So Frank Lunds aspired not only to hang out with famous people like in really close proximity, but to be on TV. And he's very articulate and he's very aggressive. Like people say, people occasionally say, Oh, that guy's shameless. No, no, no. You've never seen shameless until you've met Frank Lunds because he literally has no changing. Like there's nothing you could do to Frank Lunds in public to shame him. He's unshameable. But then again, part of the dichotomies, like also super socially awkward and socially aspirant. Like he wants to hang around people, but he's artistic in his eruptions, which are usually pretty funny. So he's very verbal. He's energetic. He's got limitless aspiration to make dough and beyond TV. And he recognizes, actually, that's a pretty common thing in corporate America and on the hill. So he's very close with New Gimrich in 94. And he got a lot of credit for coming up with the contract with America. I think he was maybe a little bit, he was definitely very much involved. I don't think it was his entire baby. I think it was more noots than the people around Newt. But whatever Frank wheezzled in there, got a lot of credit for being part of the contract with America. And then of course, the Republicans come in and they're in power for the first time in my lifetime. And first time in, like, I don't know, 32 years or something, maybe 36 years. The first, I can't remember, the 94 election when Republicans got back into the house. It was the first time in three decades at least. And so Frank was there. And his business model was, I will come up with language and words and speeches for members on the Republican caucus. I'll do it for free. Then I'll promote those messages in corporate world and make a ton of money with people who also want to be on television. Corporate heads, excuse me, Fortune 500, Fortune 100, Fortune 50 companies. And I'll go pitch them on some research projects, project that will allow them to understand their customers better. And I'll incorporate the language that I'm devising and using for the benefit of Republicans. So he ingratiated himself with the Republicans at the same time. He's ingratiating himself with corporate America all around this hold antiquated now defunct medium cable news. And it was brilliant. So he made it and he had no regret because his entire business model were lied upon getting people, even though he was incredibly label conscious, like he went to New Penn. He went to Oxford. He had an honorific doctorate that he insisted people calling Dr. He had people called Dr. Oh, Dr. Frank. I love it. Yes, Dr. Luns. I didn't call him Dr. Luns. I called him, I want to tell you what I call him, called Frank, mostly. Frank was rolling in the dough and didn't know what to do with it. And he's indefatigable in his entire life. I will. And there are things about him that I hugely admire for sure. His relentless nature, his shamelessness, you've never seen a pitch, ever seen a pitch. People talk about, oh, he's such a great pitch man. And he knows how to go and speak to these prospective clients. No one does it like Frank Luns and with literally no preparation because his entire strategy, I would call humily at the executive. Yeah, humily at the executive, generally in front of his underlings or a sub, like not a CEO, but like the guys who were angling for the CEO, spot the vice presidents and stuff who were sick of antics towards the CEO. He would gather all the all the executives in one room. Either a conference room or sometimes bigger like a an auditorium inside a Coca-Cola's headquarters or a Dow's headquarters. And he would go and he would give a presentation and like five minutes into the presentation, he would identify one of the sub executives by name. And he would do everything he could to humiliate that person in front of all of his peers and his boss. Come on. Yeah. So this is a guy who actually understands the worst part of human nature because that does actually excite the saddest in certain people. Right. And so who gravitates to those jobs except people who a lot of them, not all of them, but some of them have that gene like, oh, public humiliation, loved to public humiliate you. And every single person like if you could see the if you could see the thought bubble above everybody's head, they're all saying, holy fuck. I'm so glad that's not me, right? So everybody and so at the end of his life, how do you humiliate when they find, oh, the most personal stuff they're clothing, they're the asymmetry of their face, you know, big earlobes. No, no, mean like, I know he was predatory, relentless, ruthless, and entertaining is how like he's really fuzzled with the English language. He's like fast. He's super fast. I'll give him that. He's in very articulate and man, he would go after them. And so at the end, he'd like softened up the entire, mean, he would humiliate people. Actually, actual, at co-head quarters, it was. Yes. I saw him do it at Pfizer. I saw him do it at Coke. I saw him do it. I mean, we weren't, he did work for some impressive people, some huge companies work for the sacklers. It produced Farma. I'm ashamed to say that I was involved in that. And that's actually something I think about often, actually, about into the whole line. It's like, you're telling me before, did you, did you know that the intelligence agencies played such an aggressive role in American life and elections? No, I didn't. I also really didn't know. In terms of that, I should have listened to a lot of the blue hair, vagina hat wearing crazy women because a lot of the shit they said about the Iraq war, obviously, true, about Bush administration, obviously, true, only on hindsight for me at least. And I dismissed them. And I dismissed in a lot of the jobs I had because I did an in a position defending some of the worst corporate interests in America. And I believe that when people attack Big Farma, for instance, or the sacklers, or they're really just against, you know, corporate world, they're really against capitalism. They're really, they're just communist. They're against America. Right. They're against America. So I grew up thinking that. And it dovetailed well with my job because I ended up, I mean, they're not all evil, of course. And a lot of them employ tons of people and do good things and we couldn't survive without them. So I'm not attacking all of them. Gladly attack the sacklers and produce Farma, though, because that not only, you know, more about this topic than most, but you know, it also dovetailed with an entire societal effort that they had, which I was very much a part of, to convince Americans that there is no such thing as acceptable pain. You cannot be in pain. You shouldn't be in pain. Someone needs to be responsible for your pain and you need to eradicate your pain. That was, what they were talking about in 2000 in 1999, 2001, 2003, they engaged in a society-wide campaign to convince Americans that pain was unacceptable. Not just for chronic cancer sufferers or people who had been injured and more or people who had, you know, back injury 20 years ago, you should not be feeling in pain ever at all. And there's a solution for that. And they obviously had this solution. Further, they're the ones, as you know, who probably didn't pioneer it, but they took it to the next level, attacking the people that they'd hooked on OxyCotten when they said, and I said, engaged in a ton of research projects and jury messaging with that company where we'd go in and test messages and arguments, but really sort of like a push pull design to not just gauge public opinion, but to very much influence public opinion. And then we would do implant messages. Yes, very much so. And then of course, because of his business model, he would use those messages and it would be incorporated in thought leaders and elected officials around the country. They would use that same language and that that was in its essence. You're not responsible for your pain. You shouldn't have pain, but further, you, this is a non-addictive product. And if you are addicted to it, it's because you've been abusing it. It's because you have some latent, some long dormant addictive thing within you that's now been released. And you also probably have been abusing the product. Like have you been hitting it with hammer and smashing it into dust and snorting it? Well, that's on you. So that's it's evil. And if evil, and I never, you're thinking about it much more broadly than I ever have. So I have always been focused on the addicted, the physical addiction, the societal destruction, you know, you and I both spend a lot of the year and a place that's been really, really hollowed out, hollowed out by it. And we know people were very good friend of ours is now in prison because of drug addiction. So anyway, whatever we have seen it, both of us, but I have never really thought about what you just said, which is they were making a broader pitch about pain. And how pain is always bad. And I think if you any man, especially in middle age looking back, has to recognize that the painful moments are are the best, some of the best moments, the most important. Absolutely necessary. Absolutely necessary. Failures necessary pain is necessary, including physical pains. Yeah. Very much. So to say there are goals to eliminate all pain, that's evil. Yes, I agree. And I wish I had recognized it as such. I totally, I don't think I was, I think I was probably smarter back then because I was still smoking cigarettes. So and I was younger. But anyway, I was, I still didn't recognize it. Lucky wisdom at that. Yes, right. Yeah. Lucky wisdom. Men in their 30s don't have the perspective that a man in his 50s house. Yes. Very much. He makes it. Can I say one more thing about the lunch thing? It was, it was actually the, well, the business model was amazing in terms of it was very profitable. It was effective. He came up with some effective language. So it's a quasi, it's a dual track research thing where you do quantitative research, you know, actual polling, calling, polling as long before online polling, and then qualitative research with people in a group, a focus group, but he expanded it to like six times the normal size. So near normal focus group has like eight to 10 or 12 people in it. And obviously it depends who you recruit to be in that focus group. But then he expanded that to like 60 people and then he had an electronic dial, which was actually a dial, but he called it dial testing, where you could gauge individual words and sentences in real time. So every single person in the audience is reacting to a speech, a speech, which is littered with messages that you're testing, and they could react in real time to each word and phrase. They could, you know, it's a visceral reaction. Do you like it or you were held by it? And it's pretty effective actually. And I think a lot of the language that he came up with was great. But because of his total inability, because of his manic behavior and his dishonesty and his pension for yelling and screaming and treating people horribly, didn't actually treat me horribly, lied to me a number of times. And I got into some bigger arguments with him. And I was too young and unwise to understand you're not supposed to confront your boss and the way you would confront anybody else. Right. He's not a park ranger. He's not a park ranger. I was more respectful to the park rangers probably. The two men I felt bad for. But anyway, no, but sorry, I was trying to compliment him, which is all he cared about was the product and which was the written word. And he never gave you enough time. There was no schedule. He was day-loosed with clients, with high-paying clients. And he was disorganized. And so he would rely upon, there was a period where we were handling like 12 huge clients and it was like three writers or two writers and client handholders, you know, interfacing with the client, because Frank wasn't good at that. He was very good at humiliating them and coming to the crux, understanding human nature to the extent that he could get someone to say, yes, I'm going to pay you a ridiculous amount of money for a research project that will take six weeks and then allow me to understand my customer better. That he was great at. He was not great at allocating. He was not great at planning. And so the end result was a total beautiful meritocracy. Like you could only survive in that situation unless you produced. And it was like, campaigns are like that too. I'm sure you know. Of course. It's like, doesn't matter where you came from, doesn't matter what you did yesterday or tomorrow. It matters that you fucking produce now on time. You can't, it's like in that old medium cable news. So you didn't have an opportunity to be like, I'm not done with my script. It's seven o'clock and you're going on the air regardless. It's the greatest part about it. It was the greatest part. That was, that's what I'm saying. It was the greatest part about it, because of that job, because you just had no room for failure. And every day was an opportunity to prove that you were up to the challenge. And then further, silly cliche, but true that, oh, he's got an inch wide mile long knowledge. I feel like that a little bit because I was compelled as were the other guys I worked with to absorb the details of something that's very complex, a particular business that I had never been involved in, or a policy, or some capability of a future product or, you know, something initiative. And you had to be able to speak about it, right about it, articulately, and compellingly, on no notice at all. So I think that sounds like the best training. I am. That's exactly how I think about it. And despite the weird, and I wasn't trying to gratuitously attack, I wrote him a letter actually like six years ago. And just contemplative letter saying, despite all of our differences, despite the various tensions we've had, despite the fact you fired me three times and then hired me back the next day and paid me more money. Still not fairly. But despite all of those things, I thank you because it was the best most satisfying job I've ever had. No. No. No. Well, he, I had a stroke and a change. No, no, no, it actually he had his own admission. He had a stroke that he survived. Like all of us, it's certain age, you know, has a terrible diet and leads an unhealthy life and had a stroke and it changed him. I'd actually made him more compassionate from good. Yes. No, he had that attitude. So Frank, let's, I remember, and I don't want to, I mean, I feel sorry for Frank. And I love the fact that he's improved after his stroke, both that he's okay and that he's that it's made him a better person. I do think it's common. I mean, as we're saying about pain, it actually can, it certainly improve me. And he was aware of it, by the way. Can I tell you how I know? No. I called him five or six years ago about some common interest that we had. And I shot up a text and said, do you have two minutes? I just want to tell you something interesting. Maybe we'll, let me tell you something interesting. So he texted me back, said, yeah, call me. So I called him first words. Hey, how are you? I was like, I'm doing great, man. Let me take, and he goes, no. How are you? I was like, no, I said, I have to put a cigarette on his wrist. Is it? No, I said, I beg your pardon, Frank. He said, no, I just, I'm genuinely interested. Like, how are you? How is your wife? How is your son? Do you still have dogs? I was like, someone take over your body? Like, are you fucking serious? I've known you for like 26, maybe 28 years at that point. You've never once asked me a personal question. And that's just fine. But you're asking me how I'm doing? Are you okay? And that's when he said, actually, I have a stroke. And I said, oh, I'm so sorry. I was genuinely sorry to hear that. But yes, it had a good effect on him. And as I said, I am eternally grateful as I have expressed to him. No, I feel that way about all my bosses, some of whom, you know, regulated announced me. But I'm always grateful for every experience. And especially when you're young and you're learning a lot, I mean, it's amazing. I know, of course, I know Frank also who's a fixture in Republican world in DC. He's at the center of Republican world in DC. I was feeling like he had weird, he kind of hated the wasps. Did you get that from him, ever? I did. It was, it was, I've encountered it before, but with him, it was very pronounced. Yeah, me too. Say it, but not just to hate, but an attraction also. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was like, let me sidle up next to you. And then let me stick a fucking dagger in your kidney. That was the other two. But there was something about that. The fact that you were a wasp triggered him, right? He would talk about it. Oh, actually, are you joking? Oh, he would talk about it all the time. Well, you'd make, you know, dragatory comments or, or derogatory complimentary comments. So, thank you. It was an attraction and a revolution or something. It was bizarre. Like, what did he say? Oh, that's, well, he would just say nothing, nothing huge is a creative, but he would say, oh, that's what the wasps. So you do that or you've got such an attack, my name occasionally or my dress. That's a big one. Man, I didn't wear dress in the office very often. But only on, only when you were going out with Frank. Yeah, exactly. But he was fixated on that. Varum, no, evidently, yes. Unquestionably. Yeah, Bill Crystal was the same way with me. I remember when Bill Crystal, if we may take a moment, yeah, Bill Crystal was a smart guy. Oh, yeah. Not that smart, but clever. Not that smart. He came across as a smart guy. Yeah. A thoughtful guy, a compelling guy. It was weird. I used to respect him. Yeah, yeah. He's like a puddle. Yeah, but you know, I've learned so much. Like, yes, he's clever. He did a fair amount of reading back in the 70s. You know, in school. He went to collegiate in New York, which is a really good school. A rigorous school. They went to Harvard, got his PhD. Forced to do a ton of reading. So he had read, you know, Escalus, and you know, he had read a lot in Rousseau. And he could remember parts of it and sort of half quoted sort of, but what you realize, it was just impressive. And I'm not against that. He had like three lines of poetry. He could probably do. But you realized over time that that was more a party trick than a reflection of his like actual air edition and that on the wisdom scale, like there was none. And he was really mission driven. Yes. And parent now and a parent now. But he was it was not obvious to me because I was an idiot. And he was smart for sure. But he was not that smart at all. And the mission was, you know, hated Christianity. Yes. And really, really hated it. And the mask is off now. Well, the mask is off now. But if I look back on this, you know, he was opposed to American sovereignty. He was opposed basically to the population of America. He's really was hostile. A lot, very hostile. And there were glimpses of it, but I just wasn't I wasn't wise enough to understand what was going on. Plus, I was like, you know, young. And he was employing me. And so there were lots of incentives not to notice. But he was very fixated on the wasp thing with me. And he would bubble up sometimes. I'm like, what the hell was that? You know, it wouldn't occur to me to be like, well, I never really thought about him being Jewish, to be honest. I really didn't he is Jewish, but I didn't think about it that much. He thought a lot about me being a wasp though. There's no question. And it would come out. Anyway, it's just interesting. I never have heard anybody mention that dynamic before, but, but I noticed that in the launch too, because he would say stuff to me too. Very much wasps. It's like, well, there's no like meeting probably should be probably wouldn't have disappeared if there was, but it would have turned that a little differently. Right. Get off the golf course. Yeah, get off the golf course. Get self-awareness. Get a defense mechanism. But, you know, no, those are visible. Respect yourself. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, what your ancestors built? 100%. And I do think that one, I mean, I don't deal with many wasps anymore, because they really, really hate me. And I'm sure you probably have the same experience, but I don't think it's the same dynamic. Yes. Self-low this from cowardice. Power this leads to self-loathing, which leads to hatred of others. I totally agree. If someone will hate himself, he's probably not going to treat me well. Yeah. Exactly. I think. And they have a lot to be ashamed of in the cowardice department. I mean, these are the bravest people in the world who went over the top of the trenches. The wasps. Yes. And there's a lot of lying about that, but their numbers are there in the first world. So, wasps, including our ancestors. So, a lot of them. So, yeah, they had a lot of bravery. They seemed to have lost that probably through comfort. And booze. And booze. And booze. And they kind of know that. And they're shrinking little islands. Well, now they've almost shrunk to nothing, but. And they're mad. Do you take any shit from them when you run into them? It's funny. I took some shit actually from Neil Busch, who was in an unimpressive family. Probably the least impressive of that family. Right. Because the aggressive them are charming mostly. There are a couple of them. I like me too. I'm not going to shame them by naming them, but I know them mean to why don't mind shaming Neil Busch because Neil Busch. This is George W's brother. Yes. Attacks me in the most passive aggressive way. A fraternity party that my son's fraternity put on, which was like a formal cocktail. And I accidentally bumped into him. And I backwards. And I turned around and said, oh my gosh, forgive me. I'm so sorry. And then I said, oh, Neil Busch. Hi, Buckley Carlson has to see you mentioned Washington years ago. And then he did something. He has this affectation about, he's not very smart. First of all, he has this affectation about him that you encounter occasionally. He said something really nasty about you. And the content of your show, you were on that. I forgot what it's called one of those channels. One of those channels, who was named after animal, that I really admire. But back when that medium actually mattered. And he made some offhand comment. And I said, I beg your pardon. And this went back and forth a couple of times. And I was trying to be a gentleman. I had my son next to me and Neil Busch's son who was a fraternity brother of my son. And so for the cocktail party, I'm not going to get in some argument with this guy. But I wasn't going to back down either. And so I said, something about the content of your show and what you'd said. But he wouldn't be specific about it. And I said, and he said, oh, no, I'm not judging. I just call it like it is. He must have said that six times. I'm not judging. I just call it like it is. And then he said, well, Neil Busch. Really? You call it like it is. So what exactly specifically did my brother say that you don't agree with? Well, I haven't actually seen his show. I read about it in the New York Times. He said that? This, who's part of a family that, I mean, I actually, exactly, specific people in the family are quality and nice and deserve kindness. But the policies and the administration of George Busch was disastrous. And we're still feeling the effects of it today. I think about it often. And I lived in Texas for a while. And I can tell you the people in Texas think about it all the time. They feel completely betrayed by that family and George Busch specific. Every reason to feel that. Yes, they do. And so I share that revolution. But anyway, I'm sympathetic to the fact that he is a sibling, a non-public person, and a sibling of people and the son of a man who was attacked relentlessly by people who didn't have specificity in their attacks, didn't even know what they were talking about and had no trouble attacking family members to him personally. And yet he's going to engage on the same thing with me. Exactly. I mean, I thought this is exactly that's actually when it really came home to me that the that the wasps have not just lost, but that they've lost will. And they've surrendered. And they're unwilling to make a stand. And the fact that he had adopted the leftist attitude without being smart. Well, it's part, you know, one of the things that there are a lot of good things about the wasps. Obviously, there's some bad things about the wasps. But one of the good things was they were totally committed to fairness. And at the heart of fairness is the understanding that we're born and will die and will be judged as individuals, non-scroops. And therefore, we do not believe in collective punishment. The country was founded on that premise by wasps. And, you know, to abandon that is to abandon everything. Especially when it's the last contrainer that's still believes that. That's exactly right. It's important to never do attack a man for one of his relatives. I mean, everyone in our family has been attacked for some other member of the family. So, sorry, we're all very familiar with that. But, you know, I'm proud to say one thing I'm proud about our family is that no one would ever do that. No. Not a chance. No. I'd be happy to have dinner with you. I mean, brother and never, you know, attack him for cannibalism because he's not the one who committed it. Yes. That I know of. Welcome back. I just got to ask you one final question. You've spent your life. I haven't even I'm not going to violate your privacy by explaining some of the things you've done or places you've been or people you've worked with or whatever because it's nobody's business and you'll divulge it if you want to. But you've had a really interesting life. But it's been very interesting life. But it's been like our father, but it's all been very private. Haven't been a public at all. No. Right. By design. Oh, I know. Oh, I'm aware. So, yes. I'm aware. And, um, but now all of a sudden, you've like just entered full blown into the public debate online after, you know, 54 years of avoiding it. And you certainly have seen stuff you could have added to the public conversation, but you didn't. And you've resurved it for Christmas dinner at our house. So thank you for that. But now that you're in the, you know, public, what's that like? I hadn't anticipated it shock shockingly calling Neil Bush dumb. I feel pretty dumb that I didn't anticipate that. But it's because I haven't had a governor. I've had the freedom to say what I want to say in the venues that I operate. I must say I've had a lot of fortune in my life, a lot of blessings, but principally in the business world, I've been able to work with some people. I have some longtime clients who are aligned, who are Christian, who are very smart and very loyal. And they've allowed me to operate in my job, doesn't a man I write primarily come up with strategic stuff, but a strategic. But I've been allowed to lead an independent and private life and I've enjoyed it. I don't have any young children who I can embarrass or under my wing at the moment. So that's great. But again, I didn't anticipate it. And but the other thing I would say is I'm not a coward. I love this country. And I really don't appreciate what's happening to it. What's been happening to it and it feels like there's a lot of foot. There's a lot going on that I don't necessarily understand, but I feel like there's a battle. There's a massive battle. And it does remind me simple thing ever. Someone said the other day, I don't mind saying who was. He was great. Rick Warren, who wrote Purpose Driven Life, started listening to his podcasts. And boys, he was. And boys, he using the tools that God gave him to communicate, sometimes complicated things in a very simple way. And he said, at the end, we're going to have a final exam. And there are exactly two questions on that exam. And you can't avoid it. And it's what did you do with my son, Jesus? And what did you do with the Purpose God gave you? Wow. That's a pretty sobering thought. Yes, it is. And what's true? It's true. And so I, so I guess I'm middle, middle young, middle aged, something like that. Little weathered. But I have father was more weathered than both of us put together. Not in a long time. Yes, he did. But I don't know. Every man has an obligation to defend what he loves and to practice that. So I love this country. And I, and there's something going on. And I want to play a role. I want to, I want to do battle. I want to do battle. That's that clear. Seriously. Seriously? There's no one better. If I could just end with one vignette that's been in our family all this time, but it's I don't know. I'm almost 10 years ago. I was at work because my job, the time I was at work was public. So when I was at work, Antifa came to our house. And of course, as I've said, we always lived next to each other our whole life. So my wife was home alone. And all these people came and tried to bang through the front door and spray painted her house and you know, I'll have to and Tifa mop came to our house, whatever. I was not even aware of this was happening. So my wife is in the pantry of the house. Like people are starting to bark, you know, break down the door, dogs are barking. She does not call the police. She calls you first because everyone in our family would always call you first if there's a problem. And, and then she calls the cops. Well, the cops for some reason got there before you. And then you showed up as the cops were just pulling up, which meant that you couldn't shoot anybody. And that you were mad for weeks after I'll never forget that. I saw you for a lunch like, I just feel bad. I couldn't shoot anybody. And they were terrifying Suzy and I, but the police for right there, so I couldn't shoot them. And I'm just, I just feel bad about it. I was like, it's okay. It was, it was a justifiable sanctioned culling. It would have been society would have been much improved. I would have declared a tax credit bagger. Don't you think? Oh, I can't talk about this. That was so good. It was so, it was so good. And everyone in our family was like, yeah, Uncle Buck got there after the police. It's he was lucky. You're hilarious. I don't think I've ever experienced such frustration. Oh, actually, I know. Mandated restraint. Oh, Uncle Buck, thank you. Thank you so much. 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