The Trump administration is all in on legalizing a psychedelic drug called Ibogaine. And it is a major trip. It was like the ultimate ass kicking. It was miserable, like I was throwing up. It's classified as a Schedule 1 drug, which means it's illegal on the federal level. But a couple studies show it may be able to treat opioid addiction, and some researchers are hopeful that it can help with PTSD. That's got the attention of President Trump and a certain popular podcaster, which means Ibogaine's having a moment. Today on the show, how the right got into psychedelics and the story of how they're pushing the Trump administration to legalize them. Strap in. We're going on a trip. Support for this show comes from Deal. Let's be honest, most HR platforms are stitched together. That's why AI barely helps. Deals different. It's a single AI-native system for HR, IT, and payroll built from the ground up. That's why AI and side-deal can actually run real work onboarding, compliance, payroll, approvals all under your rules, whether you're five people or 50,000. Deal scales with you. See it in action at deal.com slash audio. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash audio. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's Odoo.com. It's Today Explained. I'm John Flynn Hill, sitting in. Maitre Busby is a journalist who covers drug policy. He's also British, so he says I be gained in a classier way than those of us on this side of the pond. Recently, he's been writing about the shifting attitudes on psychedelic drug policy in the US. And one of the biggest shifts is coming from the president. Well, you know, he's famously never smoked a cigarette, had a drink, certainly not had a trip. So, you know, in the Oval Office the other week, he's kind of joking about taking Ibegain. I'll take whatever it takes. I don't have time to be impressed. And there's a lot of bravado there, but you know, this Ibegain is an incredibly potent psychedelic. It famously gives people sort of recalls of every traumatic moment in their life. So, you know, I'm sure we'd all love to see Trump subject himself to that sort of experience. What is Ibegain? So it's like an extracted molecule from a West African Gabonese specifically, Rootbark from a shrub. And basically, it became known as being able to rid opioid addicts, heroin addicts of withdrawal symptoms, you know, in one trip. Ibegain has now entered the mainstream conversation with the Trump administration talking about legalizing certain psychedelics. How do we get here? Yeah, I mean, psychedelics are obviously long, long to the cultural left, the counterculture. We would all like to be able to live an uncluttered life, a simple life, a good life, you know, and like think about moving the whole human race ahead a step. And one of the ways of achieving that being is through drugs. But it seems now there's almost like a counterculture with these sort of, you know, right wing sort of conservative, mostly Christian, former, you know, special forces, fighters, soldiers in the US Army that, you know, suffering from really debilitating conditions from PTSD and TBI. And they've basically figured out that Ibegain and indeed other psychedelics provides them the relief that conventional medicines don't. OK, there's been a flurry of activity in this last month around psychedelics. And it had to do with, you know, who I consider the political kingmaker of the moment. And that's Joe Rogan. How is Joe Rogan involved in the policy making here? I mean, so he's had figures on his podcast since it began, right? Talking about psychedelics. Rick Doblin, who is the head of MAPS or Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. You know, the original sort of broadcast dude, Aubrey Marcus. What's going on? You're sure? What is that? Got a lot going on there. It's like a penguin with shark teeth. This is my homage to Albert Hoffman in the creation of LSD. Oh, wow. All through till today. And he's had the former Texas governor and Trump's first energy secretary, Rick Perry, on his podcast twice, along with a Kentucky lawyer and Ibegain advocate named Brian Hubbard, who sort of sounds like a Christian southern revivalist. Every human being has stardust running through their blood. And the movement that Governor Perry and I are leading is one that aims to recognize the reality of that human divinity and always quotes his favorite passage out of Isaiah. And we will crawl the last mile to deliver good tidings unto the meek, to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the open end of the prison to them that are bound. And so Joe Rogan had, you know, this unlikely duo, you know, on who have both done Ibegain and a waxing lyrical about the benefits. He had them both on his podcast like three weeks before the executive order. And they basically said, look, you know, Joe, we need to make this happen. So Joe texts Donald Trump and apparently Donald Trump responds almost instantaneously saying, you know, sounds good. Do you want FDA approval? That's all it takes. Allegedly, I mean, you know, they are accelerating the processes. And if you do see, you know, this kind of cast of guys behind Trump, you know, it's a real cast of personalities like perhaps we've never seen before. And this all culminates with Joe Rogan actually going to the White House to attend the signing of an executive order about psychedelics. What's in that executive order? Well, I mean, the thing about executive order is it's sort of, you know, shouting into the wind a bit, but there is this money to go into the research side. And, you know, let's not forget these are Schedule 1 drugs, you know, Ever since Richard Nixon, a fellow Republican, declares the war on drugs. And really, this is the biggest green light yet for, you know, potentially multi-billion dollar industry. I mean, it had like five or six prongs. One of the main ones is that now under Right to Try laws that Trump introduced in his first term to allow basically end of life patients to try experimental drugs. That will be extended to psychedelics, so long as the DEA don't kind of try and obstruct that process. There's 50 million for psychedelic research, most of which it seems are going to support state-led initiatives to investigate Ibergain and allow a sort of US-first human trial. And also it's accelerating the path to a potential approval for psychedelic drugs. And a week after, three candidates that have just submitted their data got sort of fast-tracked, you know, potential approvals. So, you know, their applications will be considered more quickly. So that would open the floodgates more widely to research. Do you expect the FDA to say, this is great, go ahead, use psychedelic drugs? They will help you. Like, what can we expect from regulators on this? Yeah, I think that is quite likely, really, within this presidency, you know, to see several, you know, psychedelic drugs approved now, which is, you know, a huge, a huge development, really. I mean, Joe Biden, there was talk about him setting up a federal task force and helping stuff along there. And, you know, he didn't seem to put any political will behind it. So, you know, Trump has really kind of seized the mantle here and he's sort of surfing the zeitgeist as he weirdly seems to be able to on, you know, certain topics all the while sort of out raging and, you know, provoking us along the way. There does seem to be some dissonance here, though. I mean, you mentioned Nixon before. The GOP traditionally was all about the war on drugs. America's public enemy number one in the United States is drug abuse. They are bombing boats in South America over drugs. What is up with this switch up? Yeah, I mean, cocaine use in the US is actually going down quite significantly. So the whole thing with, you know, bombing these fishermen boats is just, you know, crazy and completely illegal. But, you know, it is a geopolitical tool. I don't I don't mean they really care about kind of minimal cocaine imports. They wanted regime change in Venezuela. And, you know, for decades, drugs, the specter of drugs has been a useful straw man to get involved in Latin America. There's a lot of dissonance. I think that, you know, broadly, though, we're seeing the war on drugs coming to an end little by little, even despite the rhetoric here and there. And, you know, I think this is a significant threshold moment. Trump's always been kind of outside the Republican Party sort of establishment, to some extent, you know, compared to some other figures, previous presidents. It's not like it's been some sort of like topsy turvy, you know, issue. The Democrats, when they've come in, there's been piecemeal, you know, changes, you know, I mean, Joe Biden himself introduced the laws when he was a senator, you know, to make the punishments for crack cocaine, which is obviously more likely used by people of color. If you have a piece of crack cocaine, no bigger than this quarter that I'm holding in my hand, one quarter of one dollar, we passed a law through the leadership of Senator Thurman and myself and others. A law that says if you're caught with that, you go to jail for five years. You know, the penalty is like 30 times more stringent than for powder cocaine, which is used more often than, you know, white people. So I think that there's been a it's been a bipartisan issue, really, the war on drugs. Do we know who's using psychedelics? You mentioned that demographic breakdown. Do we have any any idea about this class of drugs? I think, you know, the interesting thing with psychedelics now, as opposed to maybe 10, 15 years ago, is that sort of, you know, they've crossed the political divide. I think that, you know, a lot of people from unexpected segments of society are getting turned on because, you know, they are seeing, you know, broadly the benefits. Even while there are serious risks, especially with Ibogaine. Mm. So there was only one drug named in that executive order, and it was Ibogaine. Why? The veterans, you know, these stories from veterans about the transformative effects of Ibogaine have been really difficult to refute politically. Twenty two veterans on average are committing suicide in the US every day. And Trump in the Oval Office, when he signed the order, said, Since 9-11, we've lost over 21 times more veteran lives to suicide than on the battlefields. There's so many congressmen and senators who are veterans themselves. There was a study from Stanford a couple of years ago. They looked at 30 ex-special forces and, you know, found that a dose of Ibogaine reduced all of their traumatic brain injury significantly. But, you know, we shouldn't be under any illusions. This is a seriously potent and dangerous psychedelic when, you know, used improperly. And there's been a whole spate of deaths. Indeed, the deaths are probably underreported because the drug sort of disrupts the QT interval in the heart and can lead, you know, in some cases to, you know, fatal cardiac arrest. Coming up, we send the passenger seat for an Ibogaine trip. Support for the program today comes from found. Any small business owner can tell you that managing your finances can get chaotic fast. A bank account here, quick books there, plus taxes and invoicing tools later on top. Before long, you're juggling costly software, falling behind on your books and unsure where your business really stands. That's where found says they can help. 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It was at the time, more professional iBegain clinics were opening up, and I had a source for another story who was just opening a clinic. So he reached out to me, and at the time I hadn't really heard anything about it. And he was telling me that it can wipe out addiction and for people having crazy withdrawal symptoms, right? Like, if they don't take their opioid, they're like keeling over, they're super sick. And he was just sort of telling me the kind of miraculous effects of it. And I wanted to see it for myself, and I was curious to experience it for myself. So I go down to this clinic in Cancun, the doctor comes in, and he gives me like nine capsules of this, you know, root bark extract and gives a long spiel about how lucky we are and, you know, what an amazing journey we're going to have. And really, it was a, you know, a kind of white knuckle ride. Like it's intensely dissociative. So I had all sorts of kind of fantastical visions. And yeah, I think the key thing for me was like not to sound too woo, but it really like connected me to like my parents and the gift of life. And so yeah, luckily I was able to convey that to my father before he passed away. So, you know, but the crazy thing was is that a guy who arrived on my penultimate day and he was like, you know, he just relapsed after a few years clean. But yeah, he and he dies after his Ibogaine trip at the same clinic. So I mean, that's part of the reason I might not do it again. Right. How long was your trip? It's like 12 hours. And, you know, you're fully like wired up. Like I had the IV in that heart rate monitor on my chest and my fingers. I mean, I think they actually gave me a relatively mild dose. I think they actually were in some ways like risk averse, although, you know, not, not so much that they couldn't avoid a death shortly after their opening. But yeah, then it kind of, you know, winds down, but you literally can't stand up for like three or four hours. They call it like on the floor. Oh my God. Okay. So what is Ibogaine then? You know, I've heard of magic mushrooms, their mushrooms. What is Ibogaine? Where does that come from? So, I mean, originally there's a whole tradition around its use in Gabon. There's, you know, a religion, buiti, that, you know, is hundreds of years old. I mean, exactly how old is unclear? I think they only do like one big like Iboga trip. It's like a coming of age ritual in the beginning of someone's life. And then after that, you know, they don't take such a huge dose again. And then in the early 20th century, French chemists were researching a depression drug and yeah, they extracted Ibogaine and yeah, decades later, Howard Lotsoff takes Ibogaine by accident. Basically, he was a heroin addict and in New York and realizes that he has no withdrawal symptoms. And then so he sets about on this crusade, a decades long crusade to get Ibogaine to addicts. So there's a lot of talk about Ibogaine in particular when it comes to mental health. Do we know that it helps with mental health issues? Well, the research is in its early days. It really is. There's been a few observational studies, mostly for PTSD and traumatic brain injury. And obviously, you've got this, you know, long and storied use in Gabon. So yeah, it's difficult to say from a scientific perspective with much certainty. Obviously, this administration and putting a lot of onus on kind of stories, right? Like if they say it works, it must work. But yeah, clearly, it needs, you know, a huge amount more research, but it's difficult because it's been in schedule one. And, you know, the other psychedelics have maybe found, you know, simpler passage towards, you know, getting approvals for studies. But even Ibogaine, you know, has been repeatedly blocked because of these cardiac risks that I mentioned. I was reading up on Ibogaine and I saw that it's kind of behind other psychedelics when it comes to solid research. Why is that? Well, basically, I guess when Howard Lotsoff was trying to, you know, get it through in the 80s, there were deaths happening in the underground. And so they didn't get the approvals. And, you know, because the sort of people that really want to do Ibogaine are, you know, people suffering from some of the most extreme afflictions possible. So they're coming into it in quite a fragile state quite often. And I guess, you know, to ensure the study also might be quite expensive. You know, this is a perilous but promising drug. And we had decades of the war on drugs and stigmatization. And obviously some of the, you know, the scare stories, let's say, about LSD, for example, are and were true, right? Like if you do a huge amount of LSD, it might send you crazy or unearthed, you know, craziness that you've got lurking inside of you. So, you know, this isn't for the faint-hearted and should be done in a, you know, sensible fashion. And we don't really have any sort of, you know, prevailing or kind of guiding wisdom really in society. So, you know, it has kind of been the blind leading the blind. And it seems like their efforts are finally, you know, seeing some success. What have Ibogaine advocates told you about the drug and what it's done for them? I mean, one of the, there was a couple of, well, several people behind Trump when he made the announcement, who he got them to share their stories. It fixed my demonic relationship with alcohol. It saved my life and then it saved my wife. So every day is a blessing. This treatment saved my life as well. And so many fellow veterans helped me get off opiates, stopped using a nerve stimulator I hadn't played, did sleep for the first time in over 10 years. It absolutely changed my life for the better. I went through a lot of the programs that the veterans are going through and I always kind of felt like I was a victim coming out of the program. When I came out of this, I felt like I had gotten my life back. That was five years ago. Not too long ago, I was in physical therapy and I would get dry needling through it. That's when they take the needle, put it in the muscle, jiggle it around. And I would always joke with my physical therapist. Oh my gosh, this is going to be the thing that fixes me. This is going to fix all of my problems. Everything's going to be better. This is going to be the thing that like fixes me. And I think people are seeking that from psychedelics. Is, is this the solution for a lot of people? Is this the thing that's going to fix them? I mean, I'm not seeking to be any sort of psychedelic pied piper. And clearly there's a huge placebo effect like across the board, like with any sort of drug. I think though, as I said, these veteran stories are very difficult to refute when they've tried every possible treatment option and found no relief. And then they've done this and it has indeed given them relief. But, you know, for many, for many other people, they don't necessarily find lasting relief. I mean, to this one lady for the Guardian a couple of years ago, who has, you know, a serious form of anorexia and one MDMA trip, she said, had given her a 10 year remission. But then she since relapsed. And although she regularly does psychedelic therapy, she's still suffering from from anorexia. You know, so this isn't a panacea, but there's a lot we don't know. And actually, I think that psychedelics are kind of a portal into some sort of spirit realm. People report these visions of like entities, sometimes, you know, seemingly demonic or with some sort of malevolent intent. And if you do kind of listen to the indigenous thought leaders, you know, about what they think all of that represents, it really does boggle the mind. So I think that there's a lot, you know, we can learn in the West from, you know, indigenous understandings of psychedelics, you know, to ensure, you know, we don't have a bad trip. If the Trump administration actually legalizes Ibogaine, there may be more trips ahead. May the Busby is a journalist covering drug policy. This episode was produced by Kelly Wessinger with an assist from Daniel Hewitt. It was edited by Miranda Kennedy along with Jolie Meyers, fact checked by Gabriel Dunatov and engineered by David Taddishore and Berger Dunagin. I'm John Cullen Hill, and this is Today Explained. You Support for the show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. 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