Midlife Divorce: The Facts, The Finances, and The Fallout with Jenny Hutt

The lawyer in your office had said, well, I think it's drive a jaina that's causing these divorces, which obviously is an oversimplification of larger issue. I mean, issues of are these women feeling supported by their partners when they're going through this change, when they're battling the drive a jaina or any of these symptoms of paramanopause and menopause. And I do think there's truth to that that there can be a moment where a woman over 50 says, what the am I doing this for when I don't feel supported and I don't feel loved and I don't feel cared for enough and I don't feel valued and I don't feel cherished and I feel like I've been doing doing doing doing doing doing doing for everybody else. Why why doesn't he care about me? The views and opinions expressed on unpossed are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only no part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice diagnosis or treatment. When I first started putting myself out there before my books before this podcast, one of the very first interviews I ever did was with Jennifer Hut on her serious XM radio call and show, just Jenny. I was so nervous. I had to call it the exact right minute because it was live and I was pacing back and forth in my bathroom trying not to forget my own name. But Jenny made me feel calm and seen she listened as I told her what I believed doctors weren't telling women about men of posse. She gave me a voice when I was just starting out and I'll never forget that over the years I've been a guest on her show and I've watched her evolve always staying curious and honest about life from grieving the loss of a parent to transforming herself through healthy eating and exercise. And she's not afraid to tackle the messy stuff. Now she's returning to her roots as a lawyer, specializing in family law and divorce mediation. And I wanted to have this conversation with her because every time I talk about men of posse and divorce online, the response is overwhelming. Half of the women say men of posse made them see their lives more clearly that they realized what and who no longer fit others feel guilt like they've changed and their partners couldn't adapt. It's complex, emotional and frankly, controversial. So today we're digging in with someone who understands both the emotional and legal size of it. My friend and one of my earliest champions, Jennifer Hut. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified obstetrician and gynecologist and certified men of posse practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to unpause. The podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Welcome to the podcast. First of all, that intro made me start to tear up. So you're really good at this. I'm so appreciative. Like I'm telling you I can remember getting the call. Would you want to do this? Yes, yes, yes, I didn't have any idea what to expect. I'd never done a live call in radio show. I, you know, and I just I remember distinctly pacing back and forth in my bathroom on the phone with you the whole time and watching the minutes tick off and you just kept the conversation. Nobody would have known kept me engaged. And then it was over. Yeah. And you had to jump on to the next thing. And I was like, okay, bye. You were perfect and flawless. It kind of tracks with the who that you are. But nobody would have known it was your first appearance. You were just you were just easy and you're so smart and you really know your stuff and you really care. And I think that came through. And to your credit, I think that's why people are so drawn to you because it's not just your medical expertise, but it's the way you deliver it in such an honest open accessible manner. I mean, that's a women need. People ask me, how did you develop this? How did this start? I really think my superpower is being able to take complex medical information and take it down to the level of the listener wherever she's at, you know, and I just did what I was doing with my patients one on one and just started talking to my phone. And then the world just exploded. I love that you use super power because that's one of the things that keeps coming into my mind when I think about the menopause conversation or my shifting work life conversations is tapping into my superpower. And sometimes I think menopause and paramedic paws are a superpower because a lessening of the estrogen sort of stops that people pleasing. And then I can just be without worry because you don't have that coding of estrogen telling you to like calm down, be gentle, be kind or whatever you don't when you don't need to be. But the other super power is communication. I've always been a great communicator and been able to sort of distill down what's going on with people to get through the emotion to the stuff that really matters. So there's sort of a similarity, even though you're a doctor and I'm definitely not. So walk me through this career path because you've had multiple twists and turns. So first of all, where'd you grow up? What's your back story? Oh, boy, I grew up in a two-parent home in New York and Long Island specifically. I went to college, I went to law school, I went to then like an acting school. I got married, I passed the bar, I had kids. And initially I was home for a few years. And I did like some part time legal work like I worked a little bit, but I was mostly focused on my children. And I think there are many women who have this sort of happen where there's that feeling that we want to do more. And I have that feeling that I wanted to do more. So it was a little bit of law. And then I fell into broadcasting by way of being a personal assistant. It's a whole long story. But I ended up in this radio show on series six, I'm my first radio show with my ex co-host, who's Alexis Stewart, Martha's daughter. And I did that for five and a half years. And then we had like three TV shows. It's whole thing. After that ended, I started my own radio show, which was just Jenny still on series six. And I I pretty much have close to two decades of broadcasting now all the while, kept my law license active. I would do some legal commentary on television. And like little bits of legal work, whether I did a closing or I helped somebody sort of personally with legal issue or legal problem, because I kept my license going. Yeah. And then I had an incredibly bumpy few years. I mean, the kind of bumpy few years that I wish on nobody. So in in 2008, I lost my mom. Yeah. And then after the pandemic hit, my dad got sick and right before my father passed away, my series six, I'm show ended. So my series six, I'm show ended. I launched a podcast three days later. My father died about a week later, which we all lived together. So like a very sort of enmeshed, involved super close tight net family. And then my marriage imploded. I mean, this all happened within I think 18 months. And out of that, I just in a way had this epiphany that I wanted to do more. And I wanted to turn pain into power and purpose. And I kept thinking I want to be practicing law. I want to do more. I want to help people. And I didn't even really understand what that meant initially. And I'd first sort of dad's around this idea of becoming a mediator. I was like, okay, I'll mediate divorces. That's great. I have insight. I'm going through this. I'm in this horrible place. My sister and my brother's wife Amy said to me, why aren't you a divorce lawyer? And I said, I just hadn't thought about it. And she said, you would be the best divorce lawyer there could possibly be because my history of speaking to women for decades on the air and hearing everybody's stories and really not just understanding it from the lens of broadcast or a host or personality. But when your world is shattered essentially, do however it happens, you would just this is just so the place for you. And I was like, okay, I'm going to think about this. And then I met with my friend Jackie, heronian, who's where I work with. And she said to me, you need to be a divorce lawyer. It was just really crazy. It was sort of a almost kind of kismet thing. And they really knew better than I did that this was going to be exactly the right fit. And I think I was terrified. So I did this mediation course. And I became a mediator. And then I just wanted to be the lawyer. I felt like I could do even more good advocating for a specific person. And while I do have women and men clients, I really I have a soft spot for women for the women. Yeah, I mean, I have some male clients and I can help them, of course, it can effectively advocate as I need to. But I really, I really understand the complexities of being a woman and being in really any length of marriage. But especially a long term marriage in this whole concept of the great divorce that I know that you know about it's a very jarring, jolting, strange thing to happen. And it's nuanced. It's it's a lot more than just sort of the end or the change of a marriage for our listeners. Can you explain the difference between mediation and what's the mediation part of this? What is the legal? What is the lawyer part of this? So a mediator doesn't have to be a lawyer. What a mediator does is a mediator works with the couple to guide the couple to a settlement. So it keeps the couple at a court, which by the way, lawyers should be keeping couples out of court who are getting divorced and rare cases do do divorces really need to go to trial. It's 90% of the time you should not be going to trial in a divorce. And if a lawyer is pushing you to go to trial, not the best lawyer. Mediation, the couple has to be amicable enough that they're both willing to compromise and come to an agreement about division of assets and custody and the unraveling of this marriage, which is, as you know, a marriage is more than just a husband and a wife or a wife and a wife or a husband and husband. A marriage is a family business in a way, especially when they're a children. So you're dealing with division of assets with custody issues with pets, which now in certain states like New York pets are treated almost like children most were not. But we're getting closer. Yeah, there's recent legislation. They're they're little higher level now than chattel them property. But you the mediator works on behalf of both spouses equally. It's not one over the other. Whereas with a lawyer, you each have your own lawyer to represent you and advocate for you and what should be the outcome for you. Let's talk about what's happening culturally. Yes. Divorce rates for people and I'm holding these statistics. Yeah, over 50 have doubled since the 1990s. According to the United States Census Bureau's 2024 report, marriage and divorce trends. Yeah. Women are initiating the majority of this. According to a 2023 American sociological association report. Why do you think that is? I feel like I have on the front line. I am. And I have to tell you, you had done an Instagram post. And you got a lot of flak for this post. And I read it. And I understood what you were saying. I had a never a divorce attorney who came to my office and I posted it twice two years apart. And I got the exact same reaction, both times in preparation for this podcast, I wanted to repost it to see if we would get the same kind of iron. And of course, we did. Oh, yes, viral. And there were very much to counts. Oh, yeah. So it was a divorce attorney. And in her opinion, you know, she does a lot of great divorce, mostly great divorce, and mostly does the female side, because she's also female, and we tend to gravitate towards our gender. She was talking about how she felt like menopause, especially the general urinary syndrome of menopause, and this untreated, what she called untreated menopause was contributing to a significant amount of the divorces that she was helping to mitigate. I just found that fascinating. And I shared her story. Yes. On social media and the backlash is incredible while to see. Yeah. I mean, people were furious because they were oversim. I can say words like vagina and dryness. Yeah, right. Yeah. That's okay. Okay. So basically, the lawyer in your office had had said, well, I think it's drive a vagina. That's causing these divorces, which obviously is an oversimplification right of larger issue. I mean, issues of are these women feeling supported by their partners when they're going through this change when they're battling the drive a vagina or any of these symptoms of paramanopause and menopause. And I do think there's truth to that that there can be a moment where a woman over 50 says, what the am I doing this for when I don't feel supported and I don't feel loved and I don't feel cared for enough and I don't feel valued and I don't feel cherished. And I feel like I've been doing doing doing doing doing doing doing for everybody else. Why why doesn't he care about me? It's a lack of sort of that support being at one's wits end, rather than it being about her inability to have sex because of the drive a vagina. That's where the sort of oversimplification is. Yeah. And I think as there are women when they are financially stable and able and realizing that they don't need to rely on this man for that kind of support and they've had it. And they're just saying, I'm done. I don't I don't want to live like this anymore. I have a certain number of years left and I want to be happy in those years. And I understand that it's I that wasn't that's not my story. And I don't really get into my story because I have adult children and it's right not just my story to tell and my soon to be ox husband. He is still my family. And so I I'm very mindful of my own story being that sort of private. But for some women, they really have gotten to that point where they have felt devalued. And I have clients even younger that feel that way that feel like they've been controlled their husbands have kept financial information from them. And these ones are not financially secure. And yet they still want out because they they don't think they've been treated with respect. And they've gotten to a point where it's enough. And they don't want that to be the example for their children. That this is how somebody should live and be treated because it's it's not okay. So it's definitely complicated. I think great divorce is complicated. And you and I have shared offline. I don't know if we talked about my shows are not, but you've gone through trauma and loss in your own family and seeing people die too young as a guy. And I think there's something about that too. My mom died at 65 years old. I'm 55. I'm not going to spend my next 10 years being unhappy. Right. No. And God willing, I get to have 30 more years or 40 more years. But if I get my mother's lifespan, why would I waste the next 10 if things aren't right? I think there's that aspect for many of these women. I agree. In reading those comments, there's something about menopause that allows women to kind of circle the wagons and reevaluate. Yes, and put up boundaries. Yes. And for some couples, menopause brings them closer. And you know, they they go all in and she's really able to focus on herself and realize this is the partner that I want for the rest of life. And that's beautiful. And that's great. Yes. And that's actually me. Yes. So, you know, I'm in my life. And I love that. And I am pro marriage. And sometimes unfortunately, even lifers have I didn't expect to be here. This wasn't my plan. And then my plan kind of sucked me in the head. And so I had a pivot. Yeah. And I think there's there's that too for women that we need to find a way when bad things happen or when things go don't go the way that we anticipated and believe that they would that we're still okay. That even if we have to rebuild and restructure and figure it all out of a time that we didn't anticipate having to do so we're gonna be okay. And there's no scarlet letter. And there should be no shame. And there is way too much shame. And that's the whole identity conversation. I think we'll get into. But stuff happens. And what is a woman supposed to do lie down and cry and crumble and not survive? No, we have to get up and kick ass. And I don't mean kick ass and blow up the world and cause trouble. No, I mean, kick ass so we are okay. Whatever that means for each of us. Yeah. Dreaming of a truly magical 2026. There's still time to book your family break at Walt Disney World Resort in Florida with Virgin Atlantic holidays. Enjoy lots more than just the bare necessities with up to 25% off 14 day Disney Magic tickets and Disney hotel stays. This offer disappears when the clock strikes midnight on March 31st. So book today with our Virgin Atlantic holidays experts in store by phone or online selected 2026 arrivals and Disney resorts. Tisensees apply. Perry menopause is not early menopause. It is its own distinct biological phase. And it has been largely ignored. My new book the new Perry menopause is about the seven to 10 years before your period stop. A transition that is anything but gentle. hormones fluctuate wildly. And for many women, this is when the anxiety, brain fog, sleep disruption, weight changes, mood shifts, joint pain, and that unsettling feeling of, I don't feel like myself anymore began. Long before anyone says the word menopause. Perry menopause often starts quietly. It shows up in the brain first, then the body, then everywhere else. And too often women are told nothing is wrong. I wrote the new Perry menopause because you deserve answers before things spiral. You deserve care before burnout. And you deserve a clear roadmap for a transition that medicine has ignored for far too long. The new Perry menopause is now available for preorder everywhere books are sold. Learn more and preorder your copy at the PawsLife.com. Your content has changed a little bit as I follow you and you're talking a little more about divorce. Yeah. So I have changed my content a little bit because I want people to know that this is what I'm doing now. And I want to help them. I am so excited every morning that I get to work with people and I get to make a difference and add value to their lives. It is the coolest feeling in such a tangible way. Not the broadcast wasn't doing that, but this feels different. I, I love that I can be available to my clients that they can text me night and it like that's one of the beautiful things about living alone with four dogs 24 hours a day. You can get me happy to help. I don't sleep all that much because I'm Perry menopausal. So you want to text me, call me email me. I'm right there ready to go like I don't drink. I'm always sober. I got you like I love it. And I really see the impact. A little compassion has. Yeah. I mean, these are people in the roughest time of their lives. If I could be there to make it like a tiny bit easier. I'm thrilled. Do you see Perry menopausal menopause like like being a part of of this realization or what they're going through? Well, I do where I see that is is I think you've been so instrumental in changing the conversation. We're not all freaks. We're not there's nothing wrong with us. It's biology. And also there's weight of man ways to manage it so that we don't have to suffer extra weight like it's bad enough. What I explain to patients, yeah, that the mental health part of the loss of resilience or why does my husband choose to allow which is happening in my house. I've eaten meals next to him for 30 years. And now you have miscellaneous. Oh my God. And I'm like, okay, this is a predictable response to the hormone changes going on in my body. Like, like, this is not him trying to torture me. This is a predictable response to what is happening in my body. Yeah, it's so important that you share that because I think women are not so aware of those things. I have always understood my cycle. And I know like day five of my period, the sky is falling. Everything is cloudy. It says, if I have fallen into a depression for 36 hours, and then it's over, then this clouds lift, the sky is blue. And I'm fine again. And I know it like clockwork. So every time it happens, I can take a beat and say, Oh, you feel like you want to die because of where your hormones are. It's going to pass. And then it does. But if I didn't know that and many women don't, we need you. We need you to save us. By the way, you're going to feel like this. You may feel like that. It's okay. That extra anxiety. It's actually normal in parry menopause and menopause. And here's what we do about it. Like, that's when you started with the Galveston diet, from the very beginning, you were focusing on what would help our brains feel better when the estrogen levels change. But as I go back to the beginning, it still feels a bit like a superpower because there is that IDAG thing that like I don't give a and that. That's beautiful. For someone like me who was like always making sure that people please are. Oh, yeah, please like, please like me now. I'm like me. Yeah, no, now I'm like, just do right by me or do right by my clients or do right by my family. That's it. I don't care if you like me anymore. Not my problem. I think that's that's a superpower. Yeah, you know, your clients come in and mostly women. I'm guessing. And what do you wish they knew before it's too late? So they're coming in. I think I want to get a divorce. Yeah. How do you counsel? Okay, first and foremost, don't burn down the house. Just don't divorce is highly emotionally charged. And when decisions are made based on emotion, rarely is it really the right outcome. So everyone needs to take a beat and really look at the full picture of what's going on and what you want to achieve. What kind of outcome you're looking for? What I wish they knew I mean, there's stuff you can do while you're married, happily married, like know your financial state, know what debt the two of you have together, what debt you each have independently who owns the house, how much is the mortgage, what kind of retirement accounts are there? Okay, take a beat. Yeah, what percentage of your clients don't know this information? I mean, many don't. I will say that and this is not their fault. So please understand, I do not in any way blame the women I actually think in a healthy marriage where one partner stays home and the other partner is working outside of the house, they both are equally valuable to the partnership. And it's because the one is home with the kids is home with the kids that the other one can be working, bringing in the money to support the family. They're both needed for that ecosystem. And if a spouse chooses to not share with the other spouse, financial information or access to bank accounts, then that's not a real partnership. And that's not okay. And often women don't realize that it's not okay, because nobody's told them they've sort of put their trust into something. And then they weren't really treated fairly now the good news is, depending on your state, and the state of New York is an equitable distribution state, the monies that are accumulated during the marriage, even if it's just the husband salary, that's marital property. So you're entitled to half of that well, the equitable distribution, which in many cases is half of that marital property in the absence of a prenuptial agreement that might say otherwise or postnuptial agreement. And I think California is even a bigger split. So it's very important to know that you have rights. I want women to know their rights. And most law firms or many law firms will offer complimentary consultations. We do. I mean, I, we, I will talk to anybody for an hour happily, because just to let you know what you're entitled to under the eyes of the law, which is why I say like, these cases really shouldn't go to court unless there's an actual substance abuse stealing reckless behavior abuse, physical or mental, there are cases where it should go to court. But when it's just about dividing assets and fair custody or shared parenting, then a settlement should be able to be had because it should be based on the law. Because if you go to court, a judge is going to make the decisions for you. It's better that you're going to make the compromise yourself than having someone decide the compromise for you. If you're listening or watching and you are thinking about divorce, not even it's just good to know what's what it's good to know that in New York State, your partner, the breadwinner, the person who has the more money or if he, if you're the custodial parent, they're going to give you child support for the child up to the age of 21 in New York. And sometimes 22, if the kid is in college, you can decide to do that. That's the law. So getting to those numbers, there's all these calculations and and apps that do it for the lawyers, because most of us aren't very good at math. And but it's good to know these things, what you are legally entitled to and retirement accounts. If that retirement account has grown throughout the marriage, you are entitled to the the money that were added to it from marital money, you're entitled to your share of that. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are worth knowing. Because the the statistics around this are very scary. The financial impacts. Again, I was flat, the lane statistics. Yeah, after divorce, a woman's household income drops by 41% on average, yes, compared with 23% for men. And that was in 2023, depends on who their lawyer is. Well, I saw this in clinic all the time. So I would, you know, I've been taking care of this woman, delivered her babies. And then she come in and asked for STD testing. And there was infidelity. And so she come in devastated, you know, shuffled in in like a hoodie. And, you know, usually this over the top glamorous woman, she's just devastated. And so embarrassed. Yeah, they have to come in and say, I need STD testing. My partner was in favor, not all divorces in because of him. Right. Sure. Or she had had an encounter, you know, for whatever reason. So I'm going through and then, you know, we get into the discussion. And it was shocking to me how many of them were moving into losing their homes, moving into tiny apartments, struggling to have to find a job the first time in her adult life. You know, we live in the deep South. And a lot of these women had had partnered right after college and, you know, it worked a year or two and then then chose to stay at home. And then all of a sudden are faced with this, you know, inevitability of she is financially way worse off. And she doesn't have a skill set that she can market right away, you know, to get a job. Scary. So my aunts went through something really similar. My parents stayed married until death. And that was great. And but my I watched some of my aunts like have to move into government housing after divorces and their kids that stays with you. And so I've always told my girls, you know, we financially dependent that yeah, always, you know, there's never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never discussion or house, you know, you must be able to raise the kids alone that you bring into this world. If your husband's here, that's great. And that's wonderful and amazing. But you need to be prepared to do this on your own. Yeah, I mean, it sounds so cold and terrible. Yeah. But I think that's the reality. I choose to look at it differently, though, not about that you need to do it because a man might often leave in your high and dry. So you better be able to take care of yourself. I mean, that that is reality. But I look at the empowering side of it that when you are able to be financially independent and take care of yourself, then the rest is a bonus. Then it's not a dependency because you're afraid that it's not a fear based decision to be married or to stay when you're not happy. I like the idea of being independent and having something that matters to you beyond the family and the children. And I say that as a mother, whose kids are every I mean, my whole life is about my children. I'll work to love 95 so I can keep doling at as needed to my kids so they can have whatever they want that they can't afford on their own. Like that's my kids or my they my kids are my reason for being. I mean, whether that's right or that's wrong. But having a job and a career and all different ones throughout the years is so fulfilling. And it keeps my mind going. There's other benefits beyond the financial wins of working. I am giddy when I get up in the morning now. I I feel so purpose driven and good inside like I'm making a difference. And there's so much value in that there's that thing that when you're feeling bad about something do something for someone else. And it really works. It really helps it takes you right out of your own ish. It makes you feel better. So maybe it's selfish. But I really like the feeling of knowing that I'm making a difference for somebody else and I'm making their life a little bit better. I'm all for working and contributing to society. I think it's whether you need to financially read. So if someone is thinking about divorce, give me the three top things that she should be doing right. She needs to get a hold of all the tax returns. Okay, she needs to see whose name is on what she needs to get snapshot of the balances of all the accounts. She needs to check things like the kids accounts if there are kids or their college accounts. How is that being provided for is their life insurance? What kind of health insurance? I mean, shouldn't we all be doing this? Yes, if I knew that what I know now it's always that sort of hide site is it's by the way, hi, 2020, I look at the the black box mornings being removed on the hormone therapy now in the whole like 10 years before menopause. And I'm saying myself, okay, I still get my period at 55 years old. I'm going to be 56 and I'm still getting my period. Is it too late? Because it's going to end. It's got to end. It's going to end soon. You're fine. But I've been left because it's the hindsight. Like if I knew them when I know now, if I knew 10 years ago that I should start hormone therapy at the onset of her, nobody knew. Yeah. So it's that kind of thing. Like we don't know but now we do. So if you're listening, just get a clear picture of what's going on at home, not whether your husband's doing something wrong or you're doing something wrong, just like a full picture of your finances. And honestly, how much is your mortgage? There are many clients that don't even know how much the mortgage is on their home. I remember having seeing a conversation like hours on like Oprah. Yeah. Years ago. And I had little kids. And I got out of residency went right into practice. And my husband is an engineer and just took over all the bills and everything. I had to not have told you. Yeah. What my salary was. Like I had no idea. Like I just like shopped at Target and went to the grocery store and did didn't spend any other money and all the bills were paid. And I was fine. Then I see this special on Oprah with these women who are absolutely blindsided by divorce. Yeah. And financially destitute. So I sat my husband down and was like, I didn't say if you leave me, but I said something might happen to you. And I'm clueless. So we have since then sit down on a regular basis and kind of go through all the basics. And then we live in a hurricane prone area. So we have a box that I have to take if we evacuate with all of the important things that includes all that financial information. So I think a lot of partners in relationships kind of leave the financial end to one half. And that's probably a mistake. I think that what you did and continue to do is really I did have to rustle it from him a little bit. So what am I doing something wrong? Well, because I might know if they derive their power sometimes they feel it's I get it. I'm the provider why do I have to what are you checking up on me? But I think there's real value in having the dialogue and at least knowing the username passwords and being able to assess what's what in the event that you'll need it. Now, hopefully you won't ever need it. But and I also think for women that you should have a little bit of money of your own somehow sucked away. Oh, here's something important in New York. And I don't know across the rest of the country, but inheritance. If you're going to get an inheritance, that was my next question. That is separate property, unless you come and go it. So if you are given an inheritance and then you put that in a joint bank account, that becomes marital. Okay, you have to keep those gifts separate. 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The loss of parents that I changed to our finances. There was a lot at once that had happened. And then as you know, then my daughter at a health crisis, she's thankfully, you know, I knock on everything because nothing else really matters being in the sandwich generation is tough. Really tough. You're watching your parents struggle. You're there's loss. I mean, my sister and I and my brother out. I'll say the three of us are incredibly close and that's a gift. My parents did that really right. But I'm watching my friends now all lose their parents. And I don't wish not anybody. And but I say to my sister all the time, like, at least we're done with that, like at least that part is done. Now I miss my parents every freaking day, like my mother, if she saw me now, would be over the moon. I mean, she'd feel terrible about the marriage stuff, but she could see my kids and see me getting up every day and putting on a suit. She'd be tickled. Like she just she just loved the whole thing. I feel like at least that's done because it was so hard. I took care of both my parents. My sister and I took care of our parents, both of them. And it's not for the faint of heart as you knew, because you're a doctor. I know more medical stuff than I should for not being a doctor. And that's what I had to, you know, that's what I was with both my parents when they died, leading up to when they died, calling out, you know, doing all the things. And it's just awful. And it takes a toll because you go back to the drive of China, like who wants to be frisky when they're like changing a parent's diaper, essentially, what this is it's a total mutton, you know, it messes with every ounce of you. It's hard to feel good when there's so much trauma swirling around you. What I'm finding is is there's the cut there's not hard conversations happening with how is this going to go down? What do you want mom and dad? What do you expect of me? And then one partner is being pulled to do X and Y is and there's always an emergency and last minute goes, put out fires for parents and the kid, you know, and so I think knowing we're going into sandwich generations is having those conversations and really having the tough conversations with your partner and with your parents. Yeah. What do you want? How do you want this to happen? Sometimes parents don't want to do that. I think the generation in front of us, like before, the boomers, right? Yeah. So, so we're genetics. Yeah. So our parents are boomers. Right. And they did not want those conversations. They might neither of my parents, I mean, my mother of handcutter cancer, that kind of came in like a like a wrecking ball. And that my father was wholly unprepared to die because he just didn't think it would happen. It was like he just didn't want to deal with it. Our generation and you know this and you know this from your training also, like they didn't deal with mental health. They didn't our parents. My parents care that I was breathing. Yeah. I didn't really like if I wasn't pregnant. Yeah. Or in jail. My parents were like, correct. Okay. They're winning. Right. That's right. I didn't care if I wanted college or where I went or what my grades were. Yeah. With a medical school. Right. Pay for any of that. It wasn't that wasn't what mattered. Yeah. They weren't checking in on what was going on up here or in our hearts. Right. Not in trouble and alive. Like my parents want me a lot. So it's a whole different kind of that's how they were how they were wired. And then we come out. And now we're like dealing with that because there's so many feelings that now because you can't suppress feelings no matter how hard you try. And then the next generation, it's like, well, are you okay? You're okay in this way in that way and all the way. And it's just a different animal. But I think those conversations are really important to have. So is the inheritance ruled state to state or is the state to state? Okay. Yeah. Because we are about to undergo we are undergoing the biggest transfer of wealth and history of the world to women. As we're surviving longer, you're inheriting it from your parents are from your spouse. Yes. Now from a philanthropic and I think it's going to do wonders for how we fund research and women's health and all that. So I'm super excited about it. But I want to talk about protection. So she inherits money from her parent. Right. She inherits it. So she needs to keep that in a separate bank account. What is the trust? So trust is something that that's also a way to protect it. So if you if you have a trust and it's just your name and there's rules in the trust, the trusts are very hard to break. And those are on a case by case basis and they're very specific and you go to a trust expert to do that. I'm not a trust expert. But I can tell you from a legal standpoint in New York. And yes, it is state to state. And you should check out your state's laws and their ways to do this. And don't rely on chat GPT. Okay. Do not because it's not always accurate. And people get in trouble thinking that it is. Speak to a lawyer. But if you do get a gift of money or an inheritance, you keep it separate in the absence of a trust. You keep it separate in a separate bank account because if you mix it, it is no longer separate. That's it's the mixing. You cannot mix it. So it's okay to set that boundary with your partner. Also, that's why pre-nubs can be a good idea and even post-nuptial agreements. I I had a client recently, I had a client recently who it's a similar kind of story had gotten an inheritance and her father is still alive. It gave her a gift. And he said, I'm giving you this gift under the condition that you get a post-nuptial agreement that this gift is protected so that in the event you get divorced, this gift will not go to your spouse. And so we wrote up a post-nuptial agreement, which just says this has changed within the marriage. This is what the this is what our financial status is now. And this is how the assets would be divided. Should we get divorced or should we separate? Yeah, it's fascinating. It's not divorced. And it's not a pre-nub. It's after the marriage post-nuptial. I didn't even know those existed. Yeah. How common are they? They're pretty common now. When there's a change, when there's a big financial change. Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. So let's move on to rebuilding, serving on. She's gone through the divorce. Yes. How do you see women rebuilding their identity, especially if they were in long marriages? So simply the great of us is after the kids are raised. Yeah. When I got separated, it took me probably a year to feel like I could say the word separated. And or that I was separated and that and it took me a year, maybe more to feel like I could even be out and about. I felt so strange. I was so used to my husband, my husband, my husband. So standing on my own two feet sort of spiritually felt very weird and jolting and frankly creepy. I didn't understand it like my brain couldn't because it was not my plan. How long was your marriage? Got 26 years, 27 years. I'm still technically married because I'm not yet divorced. But then I realized that again, I have this one life. And I found community on my terms, how I want to live. And I think community is really important, finding people with whom you feel good, whether they're married, whether they're not, whether you want to date or you don't, just finding your peace and your happiness and your people. And some might be the people you've always had in your life and some might not. We and that's okay. We've lost some couples who have to divorce in our friend group, you know, well, raised kids together, right? And I think it's a very common story. And a lot of our listeners will identify with us. And our priorities are changing. The kids are grown, they've all gone off to college. And I love these people. We still see them from time to time. But our lives are different. My job is different. My travel schedule is different, you know, and our kids are no longer forcing us to that's right. You know, football games and basketball games and prom and all those things aren't making us know, have a connection. Yeah, it's sad, but it's also kind of fun. Oh, I felt a relief when I didn't have to go to the games and the party is and like, college parties were fun. Your kids are older than my, we've got one left in college. Yeah, I'm going to mourn a little bit not going to the big SEC ballgame. So you're more fun than I am. Having two kids that went to SEC was fun, I have to say, for parent weekends, I will say that women who go through great divorce and women whether they wanted the divorce they didn't want the divorce, it's always hard. And it's always a bit of a death because it's a loss. It's a loss of what you thought would be regardless of reason. And women and you know, this tend to isolate when they feel shame, or and I had that that feeling of like, you know, when you think about a cat or a dog that goes to die in a corner, I just wanted to hide and I didn't want to let the people who love me love me. And I didn't want to let the people who wanted so much to care for me care for me until I realized I was only hurting myself more. And you got to let people take care of you and help you and love you when you need them to, even if you don't always recognize that you need them to, you can't let shame get in the way of your healing. I think that's what it is. Because if you get stuck in that shame spiral, then you're just going to stay there. You have to be sad, be scared, be vulnerable and like do all the things anyway, put one foot in front of the other, got always give the advice, just wake up in the morning, get through the day and go to sleep at night, start that start with just like the goal of getting through the day. And little by little, you'll start to heal. It does happen. I mean, time is sort of the best tincture like time will get you there, but it's incredibly, it can be incredibly isolating and incredibly painful. Do you see your clients' lives, though, do change for the better? Yes, I will say, in my own case, like I have the greatest group of friends, for the most part, the same friends are always the couples, the wives, every I have my people and my girls, and I am so lucky and my siblings and my kids, I mean, my kids are just my kids. But yes, my clients, I see this shift along the way, where at first things are really bad and it's a lot of, it's going to be okay, because I know it is and sort of making sure that they are really figuring out what it is that they need and being motivated by actual things that matter and not anger, because that whole thing you see on TV, like, I'm going to kill him or I'm going to this or I'm going to yeah, it's always this very over dramatized, not really, you know, and it's you woman who's hysterical and you know, the trope, there's time for the angry middle-aged woman, they're angry men too, like I've dealt, I have dealt with both the women who are, I feel like they've been wronged and the men who feel like they've been wronged and you know, there's always his hers and then the truth, like everybody has a side and that's where you figure out the compromise. But as I said, before like you can't lead with emotion, you have to lead with clear thinking and so I sort of help them there. But after the hysteria, a few months in, there does sort of set in this common understanding that you will get through this and the other side of it is really peaceful. Like it's really nice for women to after years and years of cooking and cleaning and sort of living on a schedule dictated by everybody else to know if you want Oreos for dinner, I know it's not on your plan. But if you want Oreos for dinner that you can have Oreos for dinner and nobody's going to say it. Girl dinner. Yeah, girl dinner. And if you want to exercise at eight o'clock at night, nobody's going to complain that you're not in the bed yet watching a movie like there's something really I see that with my patients, this incredible piece around building the life just built for them. It's so fun. Never done it in 25 years. Ever. And they're like, I do what I want when I want how I want I wear what I want. Yes, I don't care. And I freaking love it. It's amazing. And and because we're at the point where for the most part, we've done the things we've had the children, we've had that life that there's no desperation to mate. There might be a want to have companionship or to date or to have sex or not or whatever. But there's not that thing that we had in our 20s like, Oh, I got to get married, I got to make babies, I got to do that thing, which is biological. I mean, we have to do that. We're to, you know, it's our species. It matters. But like now, if it's not going to be great, I don't want it. I don't want to go out with somebody who's, you know, mid. Yeah. Awesome. So you spent two decades, you know, having conversations. That's Trana. Yeah. I mean, do you feel that really set you up for success? Totally. Yes. Because I've heard every story, I've learned that really valuable lesson that we're pretty much all the same. We all feel pain. Sadly, that impacts us often more than joy. And it should be the other way around. We are different characters, different stories. But at the end of the day, the human condition is what it is. So there's something incredibly freeing about seeing that. And also like as bad as you feel and you think it's just you, it's usually not. That's the other thing. Like we feel weird, we feel shame, we feel like losers. So does everybody else? Which then means like none of us really should feel any that. So a lot of women will stay in an unhappy marriage. It's satisfying marriage because they're scared. What would you say to her? As I said before, I'm pro marriage and pro love. And I do say to my client, are you sure this is what you want to do? I don't push anybody into divorce because divorce is hard. And it's a big shift and a big change. And I would rather theoretically tell death to your part. I do come from that model. But if it's not right, it's not right. And there are steps that you could take to get out. There are remedies and again, in New York, there's family court. There are, you could get orders protection. If you're scared, if you're afraid that you won't have money there, you get court orders so that you are supported, there are remedies. But you have to do it by using the legal system. You have to exercise your rights. And unless you seek counsel or somebody who knows you might not know what the law is. Yeah. How do you feel about marriage counseling? Have you seen it right? I'm not sure. And I, you know, I'm not sure. I think if it works, it works. But I don't know that it's a, and don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it doesn't work because you can't work through your issues. Yeah. I think you can. I think every couple of issues. But you're either going to be the couple that stays in the issues and stays married or not. I do think there's a very fine line between couples who make it and couples who don't. For some of my friends, I feel like therapy made them realize they need to go. Well, sometimes that happens to know it gave them more clarity. Sometimes that happens around this. This isn't going to work or I'm just not going to, I'm not going to do this for another 1015. I think that very often, even when the catalyst wasn't what somebody wanted on the other side, even the spouse who's been harmed or whatever, will ultimately feel better for the most part. Because the catalyst really is usually just a catalyst now, I'm not saying that the person who does wrong or violates the marriage contract or does things they shouldn't do is an adjurk sure. But it's rare instances that it's just somebody's adjurk, lack or why it correct. Right. Yeah. You're so funny. And you think you used humor to talk about really hard parts of life. Yeah. Wait. Yeah, everything divorce your daughter's illness, you know, all the tough things that you've been through. How do you keep that keep her going? So I don't know. I think I was raised that if you can't find the funny, then what's the point of living? Because what are we supposed to just be at a ball at our bed? 20, I mean, that might be nice. But like you got to be able to get out and deal and humor is a coping skill and it changes your chemistry and your brain chemistry like like exercise, like moving when we laugh, we feel better. So find a way to get the laughter. And I mean, my daughter had a heart attack at 24 years old. That came out of nowhere made no sense. There was zero risk. She had every toxic screen. I mean, there had, there was no reason for this. It's scat. You know, about the scats, Fontaine, her and her arterial just actually, we still don't even fully get that at scat. She doesn't have FMB. I mean, it's all so crazy. And at the time, I mean, she was extraordinary. She was so funny in her hospital bed, the whole thing. And we just left our way through this awful, awful, but we still left about it because it makes no sense. And sometimes it's the only way you can kind of wrap your head around as something is to laugh. I mean, the amount of times I left when my parents were dying, my sister and I would crack up, it the absurdity of life. I mean, it is absurd. Think about the things we do. Think about the trouble we have. Think about the great stuff. It's most of it is pretty freaking absurd. So if you can't find the funny in it, I don't know, what's the point? Yeah, I'm so, so, so glad. Our listeners are going to love this because this topic always blows up, blows up. Yeah, not just the driver, China, not the takeaway. And that was the conversation I had this morning with another with a men's father expert, what are the top key thing that you want listeners to take away from this conversation? This is a thing I always told my kids grow up that there's no problem that can't be managed. Not everything can be fixed. I get it. But you can manage everything. We can get through everything. There's always an option to be okay. You will be okay. I know it's tried in its so cliche to say you're not alone, but you're really not. I promise you the thing that you're going through that you think it's only you. Yes, for you, it is the worst thing ever, but someone else is called through it too. And there's again, beauty in that because it's community. And that that's really helpful, like just to know that you're not the only one suffering. So menopause and you're almost there. I promise. I need a promise. I know it's good that my story still work, but it's time. I'm done. Menopause often feels like society wants us to hit pause, but you are not hitting pause. Oh, no, not at all. I'm in the best time. Like I am so much happier now than I was at 30. Like I don't want to be 30. Did you ever imagine you'd be doing this? No, I didn't I definitely did not expect my life to be where it is today for better for worse. But I'm good. It's like that weevils wobble, but we don't fall down. Like I just I keep going and I I love life. I've always had that optimism in me, even when things are really, really rough. How do you find a good divorce attorney? Not everybody can go to New York and come find no, but I mean, there are research. There's family law resources online that you can look up different lawyers. Then you meet them. You have to meet with lawyers. Oh, this is key. And I did a real about this while ago. If you meet with a divorce lawyer, then your spouse can't. So go ahead and have heard that. Many consults because you can sort of do that. But yeah, it's and as word of mouth is really helpful. It's not always Google reviews. Sometimes I guess it, but word of mouth talked to people names float around people kind of know and ask ask questions. Awesome. Thank you for having me. This is so much fun. I love that we get to sit together. I know. She is so cute in person. Let me tell you, it's not smoke in mirrors. Like Dr. Mary Claire actually is. That cute. As a reminder, to our audience, you can follow Jenny on Instagram at just Jenny Hut. She is also on TikTok at Jenny Hut. And you can reach out to Jenny for a complimentary consultation at Jenny at law jaw.com. I would love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Mary Claire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness and navigating midlife at the pause life.com. My upcoming book, the new Perry Metapause is available for pre-order on Amazon. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite podcast app. So you never miss an episode while you're there, leave us a review and be sure to share the show with the women you love. We would be so grateful. You can also find full episodes on YouTube at Dr. Mary Claire. Unpause, dispresented by Odyssey in conjunction with pod people. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on unpause are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.