The Meteoric Rise of Chandler Levack - Just Shoot It 523

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Hey everyone. Welcome to the 523rd episode of Just Shoot it podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by Patron Moon. Eat Udo puts probably said that wrong. I'm Warren Kaplan.

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And I'm Matt Enlo. Today we've got Chandler Levesque on the show. So excited to talk to her. We talk about two movies she's got Dropping Roommates, which is on Netflix, and Mile and Kicks, which is out in theaters. And we also spend a decent amount of time talking about her debut feature. I like movies, all of which have come out within the last five years, but two of them are coming out in the same week. Hot dog. If you are listening day and date, this episode comes out the 16th so it will be tomorrow.

1:50

Tomorrow. And by the way, both this is very rare for us. But I've seen both of her movies that are coming on April 17th.

2:18

Yeah, and I've seen her first two movies so between the two of us, we have seen all of her movies.

2:26

Yeah. And Roommates, the Netflix movie. It's. It stars Sadie Sandler, Adam Sandler's daughter. And it has like Natasha Leone and Nick Crawlin, a really fun cast. Sarah Sherman, who seems to play the college advisor in like every movie or

2:32

at least the test last two movies we've done. So.

2:44

Yeah, yeah, she's also in. Your Son Invited to my Bat Mitzvah is like weird, quirky rabbi. But it's. It I. It's a really fun movie if you're just sitting on the couch on. And it's on Netflix. It is rated R though. Even though it's a college movie, do not show it to your 10 year old. I think there's a lot of, just a lot of swears right. Right in the first opening. So be careful. I watched it maybe a little too loud at my house, but yeah, man, it's really fun to talk to her. She's like one of those people, you know, I, I think as filmmakers we really have no clue how to make it. You know, you and I get messages all the time like, hey, how should I start out? What's the next step? And I don't know that we've had a guest on that has had a clearer path, like step by step of like what she's into, what she's doing from working on a blockbuster to making big studio Netflix movie that like every step makes sense.

2:47

You know what's funny though, Oren, is that I think this show is part of its mission statement, is demystifying all of the speed bumps in between then. And it's easy to look at a filmmaker like Chandler and be like, wow, she has it figured out. But she literally has made two movies about how she doesn't have it figured out. One where she works at a blockbuster and is struggling to like find herself. And then again, Milan kicks. This new film is about that time right after college when you're a young professional, but you're kind of in this second coming of age. And it's literally that one in particular feels very autobiographical. It's a period piece about a young woman who was a music journalist and who knows what she'll do in the future, but probably direct music videos and then features. It feels like a very clearly autobiographical.

3:39

Yeah. But I think I feel like I've always had that fear of the write what you know, that. What I know is this kind of boring life that everyone else is living to that I'm not unique, individual. But you know, I, I think if you're like, oh, I worked at a Blockbuster, so I am like, that's like my story. And you're like, yeah, there's thousands of people that worked on Blockbuster. But she, she's managed to make it. That's the relatable thing. And find the authenticity in it. That makes it a good movie.

4:30

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty great. You know, it's funny. I, I wanted to bring it up to her in the moment, but didn't have the chance. Probably because you were talking. But there is a. My favorite letterboxd review for I like movies is just something to the effect of like, of course you guys love this movie. Hold on, I want to find it. Actually, the review goes, this was made specifically for you losers here on letterboxd. And I think that's true. And it's kind of a compliment.

4:59

Yeah. And written by a loser on letterboxd. Very self aware comment, I think. But she's like the perfect example, the perfect answer to like, how do I get a directing job? And her answer is like, well, be the only. Be the most perfect person to direct the thing. And the first, you know, 10 times out of the gate, you're either the perfect person because you'll do it for free or because you wrote and created it and produced it and it's about you.

5:25

Yeah. You're the only one to do it. Yeah.

5:49

Yeah. So. And then, and then, you know, a big $30 million Netflix movie becomes so obvious why you're the one that should direct it. So, yeah, I have a feeling she will be making a lot more movies or TV shows. We'll see. I feel like a lot of her stories have legs in that TV way. So, yeah, this is really fun. Anything else you want to talk about before we hop in with her?

5:51

You know, it's a nice long episode. I will flag that our conversation was so worthwhile. We did it in two parts. So if you're watching over on YouTube, that's the wardrobe change of it all. And I don't think sonically is going to be noticeable for people, but we'll find out.

6:12

Yeah. I will say, if you ever end up coming on this podcast, please plan on. On being on here for at least an hour.

6:27

For longer than that.

6:34

Yeah, yeah. We only had 20 minutes with Chandler the very. The first time and none. We had no idea. And it was quite funny because I thought you were just like really not liking my line of questioning, texting me on the side, like, wrap it up, Kaplan.

6:35

Yeah, yeah, this wasn't like, hey, you need to pivot or. Or make room for me to pivot. This was like, oh, no. Or her publicist was like, heads up, guys, we're wrapping out soon.

6:49

On occasion, you'll text me like, this is going nowhere. Let's change the subject.

7:00

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it's such a fascinating privilege, I'll say, to just kind of drop in with a person who is in the middle of having a moment. To have two movies releasing on the same day is so wild. So we're talking to her at first in a hotel room in New York, and then over in Toronto, she gets to jets set a little bit and fly all over the place and showcase two movies at once. Incredible. Yeah.

7:04

And anyhow, if you are interested in hearing more of this breaking journalism than Matt and I are doing, you can support us by going to patreon.com put a $2. I think we are dangerously close to not breaking even on a podcast.

7:34

Oh, no, that's already happened. We're. We're not making breaking.

7:48

We're in the red.

7:51

Yeah.

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So if you would like to help interact back towards the black just because you enjoy podcasts and you realize that the dollar that you gave us, you know, seven years ago is now worth, like 25 cents comparatively, especially in LA, then check out the. The Patreon. Maybe, maybe $5 a month. I promise you, you will not notice it. Patreon.com destudepod and without further delay, let's talk to Chandler. Hey, Chandler, thank you for coming on the podcast.

7:52

Hi, nice to meet you guys. So much. I'm. Yeah, I'm in my bed. I'm just in such a small hotel room in New York. This is like the most comfortable place that I could be. But it actually is good insight into my creative process because I do like to do everything from bed.

8:21

If I do.

8:37

Do you write from bed? Actually, yeah.

8:38

I'm always, like, hunched over, like, writing

8:40

like this, like on your, like, laptop. On the knees.

8:42

Yeah, yeah.

8:46

I, I. For the very beginning of my career, I worked for Comedy Central and it was in cubicles, like, like straight up regular, like, corporate cubicles. And I remember when I quit to go direct, I would write from bed and I just felt like a prince. I just like, like the, just the height of luxury to be like, I could be in a cubicle right now. I could be huddled around, you know, a conference call or something, and I'm just, blink, plunk, plink, plunk. So I get it for sure.

8:47

Yeah.

9:15

Are you Canadian?

9:16

I am Canadian. I'm. I'm from Toronto.

9:17

Okay, cool. We've been called.

9:19

That's true. Yeah. Chandler, would you know west side Studios? Do you know those guys?

9:21

I don't. I don't know them.

9:25

They're a production company. A lot of photos. I think that maybe they shared the poster from Island Kicks and I. I'm trying to remember the context. Did someone else shoot the key art for your movie?

9:26

We shot it in la.

9:38

Okay.

9:40

This. It was a great photographer, Maya Fuhrer, who's Canadian.

9:41

Yes.

9:45

So Maya is reptilian, the cobra snake. That's what it is.

9:45

Oh, funny. That's really funny. Well, that's a great segue for people who don't understand that reference. Milan Kicks is like a period piece, but it takes place in like 2011, give or take. Is that right?

9:49

Yeah. Did you just guess that, Matt?

10:03

I think that maybe the movie. The movie maybe says what year it is in the intro. That could be wrong. I think so. Right.

10:05

I was. The whole time I was trying to place like. I mean, there's all these like, clues. Right. Like the notes app on the phone. The font, it's a. Sure. It is. Comic sense. Right. The font.

10:11

Yeah.

10:22

Funny is insane. Yeah. And then like the music and she's like Joanna Nome's new album comes out and.

10:23

Sure. Which.

10:29

Yeah. Really? I mean, I think if you're a certain. If you were a certain age in that time, which I guess was not that long ago. Like, it was so. Yeah. Like relatable and nostalgic and. And fun to watch and. Yeah. Alanis, you know, she's writing a book about Alanis Morset. That was my first concert.

10:31

Oh, wow.

10:46

Well, I'm curious, kind of as an overarching idea and stop me if this is off base, but you've got three films, right. You've got. I like movies, you've got Milan Kicks and you've got roommates. And they kind of seem to be representing very specific moments in a person's life. Right. It's like, okay, high school and then college and then post college, like early post college. Right. Kind of like kind of three instances where people manage to kind of come of age. Right. Like, we used to talk a lot about like, second coming, coming of age stories and it feels like you. You seem to be gravitating towards that. I'm curious how conscious that was and. And how accurate that is and how autobiographical all three of these films sort of feel like they are or how. How. How autobiographical you see them to be.

10:47

Yeah, Yeah. I Mean, I think for me, like, coming of age movies are always my favorite movies. And I think, like, you know, in, in every genre. You know, you could say, like, an Alien. That's a coming of age movie for Ripley.

11:41

I wanted to name my daughter Ripley and my wife wouldn't let me. So we settled on the.

11:55

That's a really cool name.

11:59

Wow, it is cool. It is cool, though. I've heard a lot of, like, Ripley's on the playground, actually. And I'll be like, okay, is it because of Alien? And the dad will be like, yep.

12:01

So Ripley and Low is. Is pretty awesome. She's not bad. Like a, A textile designer and too

12:09

late to have another kid.

12:18

Yeah. Yeah.

12:19

Anyway, sorry, Chandler, I'm stealing that name. I'm not pregnant, but I will become pregnant so I can name my kid. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm just attracted to that genre. And, you know, when I was a teenager, like, working at Blockbuster, those were all the movies that I really, like, imprinted on, like Ghost World and Almost Famous and Rushmore. And they just, like, really, really struck a chord in me. And I love teen movies. Like, when I was in middle school, I would just. I was like, obsessively gobbling up, like, any teen movie that could kind of tell me what my future is going to be like. And, you know, I kind of. I just consumed so much popular culture as, you know, in middle school and high school. It, like, made me feel nostalgic for things I never even experienced. Like, I feel like I lived through, like, Dawson's Creek and felt more emotionally connected to those characters than, like, anything that happened in my own real life. And so, you know, when I got the opportunity to start making films, you know, I was thinking about the kind of, like, coming age movies that I wanted to make. And I was like, I want to make a high school movie where, like, the movie is just about a person waiting for high school to be over. And, like, nothing happens to them. It, like, mostly is about them, like, waiting in a parking lot for their moms to pick them up. And I kind of wanted to reflect, like, I guess the kind of high school experience that I had, which was sort of like, only realizing far too late that, like, you didn't really connect with anybody. And, like, now high school's almost over and, like, you actually are filled with, like, all this, like, regret and remorse for, like, the way that you behaved in high school. And you wish you'd been able to connect with people. People.

12:20

Yeah. That's so funny. I Feel like my favorite high school stories are the ones that I saw on, like, Beverly Hills 902 now.

13:56

Yeah, they're, like, so intense. Like when I remember when, like, Dawson or Pacey and Joey kissed for the first time on Dawson's Creek, like, I, like, couldn't breathe, you know, that's so funny. And then. Yeah, and then I think with Myelin Kicks, like my. My first two features, Myelin Kicks. And I like movies like I wrote. And, you know, they're. They're definitely semi autobiographical and, like, very kind of attuned to, like, my own personal experiences. So, yeah, I think for me, like, those films feel really emotional and, you know, personal and almost scary how personal they are. And then with Roommates, that was the first time that I ever directed a movie that I didn't write. It was written by these two great writers, Kira Jane o' Sullivan and Jimmy Falley, who are on SNL as writers there. They created the Domingo sketch and. And then, you know, but. And then it became kind of a collaboration with them and me and. And Adam Sandler, who produced the movie where we were all kind of, like, collectively sharing our experiences of, like, what we remember from college and different, you know, friends that we had and, like, moments in our life. And then that helped kind of enrich it. But it was the first time I kind of was like, oh, I have to, like, actually find my way into this. But I do think that that first year of college is so. It's such a surreal and, like, so this horrifying time in your life where, like, you're not really an adult yet, and you're, like, trying so hard to, like, present this, like, new version of yourself, but you've never lived away from home before. You're completely reinventing yourself. You're living in this, like, completely different place in a completely different context. And, like, it's a lot of pressure. And I just. I mean, I remember seeing so many people in my residence just go, like, absolutely crazy and have these, like, complete flame outs or, like, really difficult relationships with their roommates. And. And I'm surprised that, like, yeah, more movies haven't been made about that experience of, like, the, you know, intense, like, roommate relationship and, like, the complicated nature of, like, female friendship. So I really, really loved that script and identified with the movie a lot.

14:02

Yeah, it is a crazy time. I mean, and it's coming on the heels of, like, four years of your teacher saying, like, wait till college. Yeah, college, this isn't going to fly in college. And you're like, yeah, and then freshman 15, like, you're. All of a sudden, you're like, I can eat anything I want.

16:03

Sure. Yeah. I ate nachos every. Literally every meal. Yeah, Yeah, I was vegetarian, so, like, there wasn't many options.

16:17

Yeah, we did a lot of, like, location scouting at different colleges. And I'd always go to the. The cafeteria and just, like, watch students and see what they would get. And it was always, like, a mini pizza that they'd put, like, chicken nuggets on top and then, like, ranch dressing, like, next to a bowl of cereal, next to, like, you know, a salad, next to, like, a sundae. I'm like, this is amazing, and I love it.

16:26

What's that? Where did you end up shooting? Which college?

16:49

We shot in New Jersey. So we shot at Rutgers campus and this really beautiful school called Drew University. That's kind of like a smaller liberal arts college.

16:52

Something you can kind of own a little bit more production wise.

17:02

More or less.

17:05

Yeah, exactly. Because I think Ruckers was, like, outside of Netflix's, like, filming zone, so we couldn't shoot there as much as we wanted to. But that one had, like, the great dorm exterior, and a lot of the movie takes place in a dorm, so we. It just looked incredible. And there was, like, some really. There's a beautiful old library that is, like a seminary library. That's, like the most beautiful location in the film that we got to shoot in. And, you know, just like, I really. Yeah, we wanted, like, that kind of classic, like, archetypical, you know, college that's, like, so stately and beautiful.

17:05

Like USC or UCLA.

17:36

Sure.

17:38

Like, yeah, 60% of college movies.

17:38

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know the USC and I think maybe UCLA as well. Both were kind of designed to look like other colleges so that they. People would shoot there.

17:41

Oh, really?

17:50

Yeah, really. They say that on the tour. Yeah. So California. But, you know, Chandler, it makes me think of, like, you were talking before about how you have a nostalgia for maybe a childhood you didn't literally experience. And that's kind of how I felt about college. Right. Like, I was so excited to go to college and love my college experience. But, like, you know, a lot of what you see in TV and movies isn't, like, a Southern California college. It's like upstate New York. You know what I mean? It's like these small liberal arts schools that have the Ivy and these incredible buildings and stuff. And so I wonder, in location scouting, like, are were you more interested in aesthetics or real, like, how did you decide what good was quote unquote relative. Like, what made a good location or a good establishing shot or exterior for you?

17:50

I mean, I always just like stuff that has, like, weird, idiosyncratic character to it. And, you know, Roommates is a Netflix movie, and I guess no shade to Netflix movies, but I always find that they, like, are weird. The locations are always weird. It's always, like, people live in houses that kind of look like an Airbnb, and they always have, like, chalkboard signs outside and, like, too many, like, fairy lights in people's rooms and, like, nothing looks like, lived in and, like, specific and, like, based on.

18:41

There's a joke about fairy lights in your movie, right?

19:14

Yeah, there is, actually.

19:17

That's funny.

19:18

Yeah. But there's, like, not, like, world building or, like, character specificity to me. And I think that was, for me, like, the real challenge of directing something that I didn't write for the first time because, you know, like, with Myelin Kicks, I wrote that script. I started writing it 10 years ago, and. And so, like, I felt like I knew the intonation and meaning of, like, every comma, you know, and it was almost like I had to, like, almost relax a bit and be like, okay, I, you know, give you. Trust your collaborators and give them and your actors, like, a lot of agency and empower them to also come up with their own ideas of. Of, you know, what the vision of this could be so that it can be a collaboration. Like, not everything has to be this, like, staunch, like, line in the sand of, like, what you exactly remember from your life. Like, let it be a movie, you know, instead of a weird, I don't know, like, interpersonal art project or something. And then with this movie, yeah, I was just like, how do I. How do I make this feel really real and authentic to, like, what the college experience it is, is, you know, like, how do we make a dorm? I was nervous about doing a movie that, like, primarily takes place in a dorm room and how to make that feel, like, cinematic and interesting as. As a space and not make the film feel too, like, claustrophobic and. And have unique blocking and scenes so you're not just, like, seeing the same kind of seen over and over again.

19:19

I wonder. Also, like, the si. The literal size of a dorm room is really complicated. Right. Like, Orin went to ucla. I don't know if you've ever been in one of those dorm rooms, Chandler, but it's. You couldn't fit another person. Yeah. Like, it's. There's two twin beds and a bunk bed.

20:41

A mini fridge.

20:58

Yeah. Yeah, like, oh, you had two people. That's the height of luxury, my friend. It was.

20:59

Well, there was, like, maybe one room, like, four feet of. Four square feet of, like, moving space. Yeah.

21:04

Yeah. So, like, you're better off shooting that as a set. And then flying walls are. But then all of a sudden, you're throwing the camera in places where physically you wouldn't be able to see otherwise. How do you deal with just, like, the aesthetic, Right? Like, the kind of, like, this aspirational sort of dream of what college could be relative to the reality of. Of how people experience it.

21:10

Yeah. I mean, I worked with such brilliant collaborators, like my production designer, Barry Blake. He has been working with Happy Medicine since, like, Billy Madison. And so he did, like, the Wedding Singer and, you know, Happy Gilmore and. And. And, like, all of these, like, very iconic Happy Madison movies. And, like, you know, he literally, like, built Hell and Little Nikki. So maybe hell is a teenage girl's dorm room. But, yeah, so it was. It was. I think he really loved the challenge of doing something, like, more naturalistic but also cinematic. And he came up with this brilliant idea. We shot it on a soundstage in New Jersey, but then at the beginning of the movie, the dorm is, like, a certain. It's bigger. And then as her relationship with her roommate gets worse and worse. Worse because we built the set smaller and smaller and smaller until at the end, at the height of their attention.

21:33

That's noticed when you watch the movie.

22:24

Or is it, like, felt? Yeah, it's. It's more felt. And then I think with. With my cinematographer, Maria Rushi, who's incredible, and shot Shiva Baby and Bottoms, and it's just, like, an extraordinary talent. Yeah. They are also like, oh, maybe we can start to frame things with, like, you know, tighter and tighter lenses, too, so you kind of just feel like getting more, like, sucked in, asphyxiated. And it kind of, like, mimics maybe that experience of college where, like, when you first get into that dorm room, you're like, oh, my God, this is my room. Like, the world seems so big, and then, as you know, the litany of, like, microaggressions pile up. Like, you just, like, I can't even, like, live in this space, you know? Yeah.

22:26

Yeah.

23:06

I wonder if we can back up for a second, because I think. I mean, at least for me personally, I'm really curious how you got these, like, how you got. You put together, got Mile and Kicks made, and then how that. If. If that indeed did parlay into roommates or if you kind of Got roommates or even parallel path from movies, I

23:07

think maybe even taking it one step even further back, actually. Right. Because correct me if I'm wrong, you started as a journalist like your character in Myelin kicks. Is that right?

23:26

Yeah, I, I, I basically, you know, saw Cameron Crowe's Almost Famous when I was 15, like, imprinted on the movie so hard that I was like, how

23:35

do I, like, that'll ruin your life,

23:44

you know, live in, live in this movie. O. To become the main character. And I, like, by the time I was 18, I was like, writing professionally for, you know, this all weekly in Toronto called Now magazine.

23:45

Oh, that's so good, though, because not only did you, like, say, hey, I want this life, but, like, literally, I'll start as a teenager. Like, he did not just like, oh, I should be a journalist someday.

23:58

Yeah.

24:09

Yeah, that's wild. That's great. That's great. Sorry.

24:10

And I, yeah, I interned at Spin in like, the summer of 2007 and like, moved to New York when I was 20 and, and then, and then I just completely dropped out of university and was like, working full time as like, a professional, I mean, professional in air quotes. I was sometimes paid in CDs, a rock writer. And then, yeah, I worked at this, this all weekly in Toronto when I was 22 as like, a staff writer there. So, you know, that shaped me, like, in so many ways, like both great and, and, and horrible and. But I got to interview, you know, so many of my, my heroes, both in, in film and music, like, had so many profound experiences that really shaped me, I think, as, you know, artist or whatever. But I think there was this, like, itch that I was always trying to scratch where I was like, I want to be a filmmaker, but I'm just, like, repressing this so hard. And I think journalism and arts criticism felt like a safe way to, like, kind of be adjacent to the thing that I really wanted to do but, like, could never admit. And, and then I think at a certain point, like, it just the, like, little voice in my head just kept getting, like, louder and louder and louder. And then I got let go from my job and I had, like, a few credits left to get my degree, and so I went to school.

24:12

When you got let go from your job, was it like, like, you know, music criticism was kind of slowly eroding as you were getting into it? Was it a sign of the times?

25:22

I, I don't know. I mean, I, I think I was there kind of for like, the death knell. I'd Say like when I started, you know, rock music criticism, there would be like seven pages of like CD reviews, you know, and like it was kind of the era of like Pitchfork and you know, Stereo Gum and where like, you know, you could be like a tiny band and like, really get break out through, you know, critics and stuff. And, you know, people still went to shows and bought CDs. And now I feel like that whole industry has like collapsed and like, you don't need. You don't need music critics anymore to tell you if something's good. Like you can get the album on Spotify and listen to it and it like, nothing has the same kind of like value as it used to.

25:32

Yeah, but I guess what I'm asking is, did you feel like could you tell that criticism was shifting to the point where it was no longer be a viable career or was it. Was that too prescient?

26:14

I don't know. I mean, I think for me, like the writers that I always admired, like, I really wanted to be like great cultural critic, like, you know, Grill Marcus or Susan Sontag or Pauline Kael. Like, those were like the writers that I really admired. And so I guess I did start to see it like. Like, you know, budgets getting slashed and articles getting shorter and people no longer being interested in, you know, investigative features and like the pivot to video and.

26:27

Sure.

26:52

Like that.

26:53

Sure. Yeah. I guess I'm projecting a little bit because I think at the same time I wanted to make music videos and I remember getting one and the budget was $5,000 for everything and it took me a month to make do you know what I mean? And I split it with somebody else. So like, I remember just being like, ah, the party's over. Okay, all right. What else do I do, you know?

26:53

Well, I mean, that's how I started as a director. I started music videos too. So I made a bunch of music videos for this Toronto punk band called Pop, who are great. And our first video. Yeah, I love our first video Reservoir. I co directed them with them.

27:16

Oh, I know that video with, with, with what's His Face, The Stranger Things kid, right?

27:29

Oh, yeah. Guilt Trip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's Guilt Trip did that one.

27:34

That's great. That video is awesome.

27:37

Yeah. And we shot that for $3,000 in Vancouver. All in. And it was just this like incredible education for me because I hadn't ever directed anything and I was co directing it with my boyfriend at the time. And we did like everything ourselves. You know, we're like literally like driving through the middle of the woods, like, location scouting, I think we found a guy that, like, owns, like, you know, some. Some weird, like, forestry plants. And we asked him if he could, like, shoot on his location and, you know, paid him like, a hundred dollars. It was like a handshake deal. And, like, I remember we had this, like, van that was the van for that. The van drives in the. It was really incredible, like, insane, you know, punk rock van. And we used it to, like, pick up all of our gear and stuff. And then we were driving on the sea to sky highway, and the door, like, slid open, and Jeremy almost, like, fell out, and I, like, caught him.

27:39

You're like, we should put that in the video, I think.

28:31

Yeah. I mean, everything was just like, the gnarliest way you could do anything. Like, just posting, you know, notices for casting on, like, mandy.com. and that's how Finn Wolfhard, like, auditioned. And he was so incredible, like, even then when he was, like, 8 years old. Like, so such a cool, amazing actor.

28:33

So the video is coming back to me now. So for listeners who aren't familiar, basically, it's like, you know, the formation of this kind of gnarly punk band, like, playing loud music in the woods.

28:52

Right.

29:03

But, like, there's like, correct me if I'm wrong, like a fire. Right.

29:04

Well, it's like the fake origin story of how Pup became a band.

29:09

Right.

29:12

But they kind of wanted to do this, like, mythology of, like, they. How they became all childhood friends. And so slowly but surely, it kind of has this, like, stand by me, over the edge aesthetic. And then you start with, like, two kids that are friends that are, like, getting bullied at school, and then at the end of it, the bully comes back to, like, fight them. But then this cop shows up, and then, yes, the kid accidentally shoots a cop, and they burn his body, and then they go on the run, and then that's how they became a band.

29:13

Yeah. Which is great. But also, like, you have guns, you have fire, you have gore.

29:45

Yes.

29:52

There's a lot of production value.

29:53

Lot of production value.

29:54

$3,000. Yeah.

29:55

Yeah, for sure. So are you just calling.

29:57

You're not paying for these locations, right? Right. What do you mean you're not paying for locations?

29:58

Well, I wouldn't say it was a union shoot, but we had an amazing crew that, like, managed to put it together on, like, a very DIY level. Like, our producer, Dan Code was so incredible. So it was just a lot of, like, you know, okay, we need to make, like, this kind of, like, squatting, you know, punk Rock like home for the kids in the woods. Okay, well, Jeremy's dad, who's, like, a carpenter, is gonna, like. We're gonna. We're gonna be, like, nailing plywood to, like, a shack that we built ourselves. You know, 6am in the rain. Like, everything was, like, the hardest possible way that you could do something that now, having just made, like, a $30 million Netflix movie, I'm like, oh, but, you know, there's, like, with such a purity to that, and I actually, like, kind of miss that style of filmmaking, you know, like the very granular, like, DIY level. And I certainly, like, applied all those lessons to, like, my first feature. I like movies like, you know, our set for that film was, like, literally found in an abandoned Blockbuster in Northern Ontario. And then we just, like, the owner, like, looked the other way, and we just filled a cube truck with, like, all of the old shelving and computers and TVs that were, like, in the store.

30:03

You're kind of doing them a favor, right?

31:15

Like, like, what else are they gonna do to me? I felt like I'd won the lottery. Like, I was like, you don't understand how precious this is to me. But there was a moment where I, like, had, like, this saw, and I was, like, sawing through, like, old wires, like, not knowing if I was gonna get electrocuted or not to, like, steal the computers or whatever. And I was. But, I mean, like, I feel like that's filmmaking is, like, my spirituality. Like, it's. It's the closest thing I have, I think, to, like, when I'm doing. When those things happen. Like, you manifest, like, all of the props that you need or like, some incredible actor, you know, signs onto your project or you. You, like, it seems impossible to find the location you want, and then miraculously, you. You scout it. Like, it does feel the closest to me. Like, believing in God.

31:17

Yeah.

31:59

Yeah. Can we ask you. Can you tell us the budget of I Like movies? The.

32:00

Your first movie, it was about $225,000 Canadian.

32:04

Oh, wow.

32:08

Yeah. And it was entirely dollars U.S. yeah. 60 bucks. Yeah. It was entirely with grants from Telefilm, which. And. And the. The Canada Arts Council. So Telefilm has this program called Talent to Watch, which is, like, a micro budget grant that can. You can get for your first feature. And in my opinion, you know, a lot of the. The greatest, like, most interesting movies in Canada are being made with this. This grant. And, you know, how many years ago was that when I made the film? Yeah, we made it at the Height of the pandemic in. In 2021.

32:10

I like movies.

32:40

As if. Yeah, as if it can have been harder.

32:41

Sure, sure.

32:44

Five years you went from. If. If I'm to believe your character from Island Kicks, someone who's unemployed, owes some old roommates a lot of rent money, gets a book deal canceled, struggling to survive and has to owe some.

32:45

This. That's a fictional movie. I'm not saying that anything you said,

32:58

it was too personal. Maybe. I know, but that has to beg their parents.

33:01

I don't want to blow up my

33:05

spot, you know, but going from that to the. I mean, I. I guess what's interesting to me is just your. Your success is kind of like, meteoric, right? In the. In the, like, post Covid, you've gone from nothing to this $30 million Netflix movie. Right?

33:06

I guess that's true. I've never literally ever thought about this before in my entire life.

33:22

It's pretty quick. It's pretty quick.

33:27

Yeah, I know. And I'm not even a Nepo baby. I don't know anybody at all. I promise.

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34:30

FDIC, subject to credit approval. You made my line kicks, which we talked a little bit about, which I also very much enjoyed that movie and it was so autobiographical, like you mentioned. And then somehow you got like a $30 million Netflix movie as your next film with, like, a really fun cast. Can you just tell us a little bit about how you went from film two, which Was it's not a small film. Mile and Kicks. I think it's probably pretty big on it in terms of like a indie

34:34

film level and a great festival premiere and recognizable faces and names and the great soundtrack and like, certainly like.

35:02

Oh yeah, the soundtrack.

35:10

A more expensive movie then. I like movies. Right?

35:11

Yeah, yeah.

35:15

But not, I'm gonna guess, not a 30 million dollar Netflix movie sort of budget.

35:15

No.

35:20

It seems like you 10x'd every time. Like the next movie's gonna be 300 million.

35:20

Yeah, there you go.

35:24

The whole time you were saying, like, why did this happen? I just wanted to go like in my head I was like, I just wanted to make an. I want to say Enter Sandman. It's like, I don't know, I was like trying to build a joke that would be like Sandman, but the. Is that a Metallica song? Yeah.

35:26

Yes. Yes.

35:41

You're the music journalist. Okay. You only do.

35:42

Yeah. You're just aging me, Chan.

35:45

Late 90s grunge.

35:46

I'm like, of course.

35:47

I think only Adam Sandler is crazy enough to watch. I like movies. A film that doesn't even have lights and the only extras are my parents who had to lie to a doctor and say they had covet and then do a COVID test and get negative results in order to be an extra in the film.

35:48

Like, are you serious about no lights? Or you mean like minimal lights?

36:05

Like, basically no lights. Like, we couldn't afford to have lights. Like, we have practicals. We had a diffusion tents that like cut the harshness of like the fluorescence in the video store. But yeah, I mean it was, it was very. Yeah, very DIY movie. Like we filmed it during the pandemic. So the COVID costs like took out, you know. Yeah, like about that budget there.

36:08

The CEOs are rolling up in Rolls Royces. That's a covenant complaint.

36:31

My friend's dog out. But yeah, I mean, I think, I think that. Yeah, I mean I certainly. I did not plan or strategize any of this stuff. It all just like randomly happened to me. And I like movies was written because I couldn't get my link kicks made. And that film took, you know, 10 years to. To happen. So it's. It's a very strange career of just like kind of. There's no, there's no strategy involved. I think when my agents signed me, they were just like, they waited four years and were just really happy after four years that they could actually get me.

36:35

The funny thing about that is, like, I feel like people sign with agents and then like, you know, nothing happens for four years. And then you shoot them an email and they're like, oh, well, you're not. We don't rep you anymore.

37:08

Yeah, they're like, oh, shoot. Are you still on our IMDb?

37:18

Yeah. Can you, can you remove us from your contact?

37:22

You know, I might have a bar mitzvah video you could do for my.

37:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

37:27

It's funny. Like, four. It probably is like five years is like when they unsign you. I mean, I had, I. After my first movie, I signed with like, you know, agent and manager and everything. And about five years later, they're like, yeah, we think we've seen what you can do. You know, you get to the point

37:28

where you're just like, I don't want to email them. Because then they'll realize that I think I'm still signed to them and they'll drop.

37:43

And I made them. No money.

37:51

Manager who was lovely, like during the pandemic, she was like, I'm Chandler. I'm sorry, I have to. We have to part ways because I want to become an arborist.

37:52

That is the worst. That's like the third time I've heard that excuse. It's probably because they think you can't track him down.

38:01

Yeah, you don't need. You don't need a social media presence as an arborist.

38:07

Yeah, I didn't even know you liked trees. That I don't.

38:11

But compared to filmmakers. Yeah, at least they hug you back.

38:16

Chandler, do you need to let your dog out? Is that what you just said?

38:19

No, no, I did.

38:22

You did. Okay. Well done.

38:23

Well, that's a friend's dog. Okay, come on.

38:23

I don't want to talk too much about. I like movies because we're here to talk about your two new movies. But I do wonder if you have any insight into how or why the movie popped off and launched you into these other two. Right, Because I literally just got emailed today. We get pitched all the time for micro budget movies and from friends, from people we don't know, from listeners to the show. And it's really, really hard because I want to champion every indie movie ever. Right? And also our job is to kind of find ways to like, Oren doesn't. But you want to find ways to give a listener a new perspective on something we haven't talked about yet. And especially my heart goes out to these micro budget filmmakers who are kind of just always like, hey, we made $50,000 look like $2 million, and we could talk about DIY distribution and kind of all this stuff that is pretty well trod. Trodden territory. What do you think made. I like movies, Pop. Do you have any. Any insight besides just making a good movie, which we all aim to do,

38:27

you know, and the title is pretty.

39:32

35% is the title for sure. I think you go to a film festival and you look at all the things and you're like, well, I like movies. That sounds like a safe bet. You know, I really. I think we got a lot from just the title alone. I think that, you know, it's very like a movie about someone who loves movies. So people are going to identify with it if they're at a film festival. Because, I mean, I think every year, all Lawrence in some ways, kind of like, I think we all relate to that little like, scared, pretentious teenager in all of us that's renting like 10 free rentals a week at Blockbuster. And, you know, I remember just like when I worked at Blockbuster in the suburbs of Ontario, just being like, oh, I see you're interested in Spider Man 2, but may I also recommend Babette's Feast?

39:34

Now looking back, you're like, oh, Spider Man 2 is really good though.

40:22

Yeah.

40:25

You know, Matt worked at a video store too.

40:26

You could do Babette's Feast, but the director of Baby could never do.

40:28

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the full circle of working in movies is. I do think you. You realize that everyone's looking for something different in movies. And I think working at a video store taught me, like, oh, right, I can recommend my favorite movie, but that might not be. That's probably not going to be their favorite movie. So what's. How can you discern what's going to click for them, basically, you know.

40:32

Yeah. And I think anytime anyone would, like, take my suggestion and come back and be like, oh, I did watch, you know, Dog Day Afternoon and you were right. It, like, I just completely won the lottery. Like, I was just so excited and I was just so desperate to talk about, like, the things that I was interested in. So I was just looking for, like, peers or anyone that would just give me the time of day.

40:55

I feel like the puzzle pieces of your life, they fit too well together. Like, like giving your opinion like movies. Then become a person whose job it is to give your opinion on music and then show that music. I mean, it's just too, too convenient. This feels like it's written by chat. GBT is. Where did you premiere again? I like movies.

41:18

It was also at tiff.

41:39

Okay, so that probably doesn't hurt.

41:40

Yes. I'm an ed. Toronto film criticism nepo, baby, in that regard.

41:42

You know, though, having worked in Canada a little bit, I remember working with a DP who was like, who had a movie that was going to premiere TIFF soon, and he kind of told me that, like, Canadian filmmakers kind of take that festival for granted a little bit, or don't think of it as in such high esteem. I'm like, no, that's like, one of the very best festivals, North American festivals. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible.

41:48

I don't know.

42:10

And, you know, if you're a filmmaker working in Toronto, you're just like, well, yeah, that's the one in our backyard. It was kind of the vibe that he was saying, and it kind of echoes the joke. And I like movies about not wanting to be another Canadian filmmaker. Right.

42:10

Yeah.

42:22

Did. Did you feel that sentiment at all, or were you just like, no, here we go. Like, my parents actually come to this festival. Let's do it.

42:23

You know, I mean, I think for me, like, I've. My relationship to TIFF is so strong, like, and I've experienced it from so many different levels because, you know, I started going there as, like, a university student. Like, my first screening was a print of Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore that was introduced by Bernstein, you know, And I couldn't believe that that was, like, in my own, you know, backyard, like, 10 minutes away from where my university class was. And then I worked, and then I got to cover the festival as a journalist. And the first time that I went, you know, I had a pass, and I was like, what? I can just see, like, five movies for free a day. And I got to interview, like, Pedro Amodovar, like, the year that Volvair was there with Penelope Cruz. And, like, granted, it was like a roundtable where, like, you get to ask, like, want to build. To be in the presence of them was, like, electrifying for me.

42:29

Yeah.

43:19

I remember seeing, like, a PNI screening, and I sat next to Roger Ebert like that, and I was so shocked. And then he had, like, a talk box thing, and he was like, it's me.

43:20

Still got it. Still got it. That's so good. Yeah.

43:31

And so. And then, you know, and then I worked at TIFF as a staff writer for. For two years interviewing filmmakers. And then I made. Had a short there and then feature. So I feel like I've. I think I said in my Intro to Myelin kicks this year when it was the opening night Film. Like, I was like, I've experienced this from somebody different institutional levels. Like, I could write, like, the Wire of Tiff. Like, I know, you know, what's incredible about that festival, what's, like, complicated about, you know, working there, being a filmmaker there, like, everything. So. But I. I still think, yeah, from a programming level and just what it represents as a cinephile, it's. It's just. It's. It is incredible. Yeah, I think Canadian movies often get, like, the short shrift there because, you know, I mean, just. People don't take Canadian film seriously in general. Like, it still has this kind of strange stigma to it. Canadians don't see Canadian films. They don't know about them, even though their taxpayer dollars go towards funding those films. And they very rarely get distribution outside of Canada. And so it's like you're putting all your, like, heart and soul into making these. These independent movies, and then they just completely flatline and they'll make, like, you know, like, a successful Canadian movie will make $2,200,000 at the box office. Like, that's considered, like a. Like a runaway, like, success. And so that's why it's very strange.

43:34

The math just doesn't work out to.

44:52

Yeah, so there's never any, like, recruitment of, you know, budgets or anything. I mean, it's. It's interesting because I guess because it is a granting system and, you know, there's not as much pressure to do that, and you kind of can in Canada and a little bit make, like, arts for art's sake and have a sustainable career that way. But, like, I don't know, it's. I mean, I really admire the. The filmmakers who've continued to make films in Canada and, like, work within that system and. But it's. It's. It's really. It's really difficult.

44:54

Can I. Well, I mean, some. Somehow you figured it out because you made this movie, premiered at tiff and Adam Sandler side can. Do you have any idea how that happened?

45:20

I think I have. He has, like, 15 agents at WME, and one of his agents is my agent. So I think that's how they probably, like, forced him to watch it.

45:29

So was your. Was that your agent when you made I Like Movies?

45:39

I think they signed me, like, after I Like movies. Was that Tiff?

45:43

Okay, so there's a little bit of that honeymoon period of, like, oh, we just signed this new person. We're gonna send you to everyone. And yes, if you get a bite, then good to go. And if not, sometimes we email you four years later. Right. But you get the bite. Right.

45:47

And also, I have a major agent, so we've, we've kind of stayed in contact and they've been supportive and, like, helped me get, you know, introduced me to actress for Myelin Kicks, and they've just been nothing but awesome. But I did get sent a lot of breakdancing movies.

46:02

I would do a breakdancing movie.

46:18

Yeah.

46:19

Sounds fun.

46:20

Yeah.

46:21

And I'd be like this, like, katie Ortega needs to do this.

46:22

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, John. She's like, I did that a bunch already. So.

46:26

Yeah. And I'm guessing that if it went through the agents, probably they showed it to someone at Happy Madison that's like, hey, this movie's got, like, a vibe to it that maybe you guys would be into. There's kind of something of age. Yeah.

46:31

Maybe not even strategically, because I just am obsessed with him. That movie is kind of a love letter to Adam Sandler as well. There's a lot of Adam Sandler content in the film. Like, they go see Punch Drunk Love, they're watching SNL and they're watching Adam Sandler do the Hanukkah Song.

46:43

Man. I had not seen the movie, but now this puzzle is fitting.

46:58

Yeah.

47:02

Too well.

47:03

It's like I manifested it kind of. There's like a literal kind of scene where, like, you know, he's getting fired from the video store, and he's like, but I need my discount for Punch Drunk Glove. And she's like, well, you should have thought of your precious Adam Sandler before. Like, really is not bad. I remember talking to Adam about it. He's like, he's like, not only did I not sue you, I hired you.

47:04

I mean, it is crazy that I think what's so lovely about this is that, you know, you just, like five minutes ago, talking about how pretentious you were, maybe as like a, you know, a movie recommender. But then, like, your movie that you make about movies, you know, talks about Adam Sandler movies, which, you know, might be like, the widest appeal type of movies ever. I mean, I know Punch Drunk Love is not.

47:25

Sure, sure.

47:47

But typical. Yeah. Adam Sandler movie.

47:48

But Chandler, too, likes movies, right?

47:50

Yeah.

47:52

So then I love sailor movies. And it was such a privilege to, you know, be part of, like, the Happy Madison canon. Like, I, I, I can't believe it. It's so cool.

47:53

Yeah. If you got a dog, you should name him Adam Chandler.

48:02

It was funny when he met me. He's like, if you married Adam, you'd be Chandler Sailor. And I'm like, oh, yeah. I was like, like, Julia Gulia in the wedding.

48:05

Yeah. You're like, he's married. It's like, you know, Marcy Carson married,

48:13

and his wife is so lovely and wonderful, and I don't want him. I'm sorry, I don't.

48:17

He has a daughter that starred in your movie. So how did. Was that all coming together? While you were making my end kicks,

48:21

it was happening while I was editing the movie, so we were, like, kind of in the fine cut stage and getting all of these really difficult notes to understand from, like, our. From different, you know, financing partners in the film. And I was, like, having kind of a mental breakdown because they wanted to, like, completely recut the movie and, like, you know, they just didn't kind of tonally get what it was about. And, you know, it was really frustrating for me. And I was like, I think that, like, we are done and, like, I want to move forward. And at the time, we were, like, shortlisted for Cannes and stuff, so I was like, if this happened, we didn't get in. But if this happens, like, I need to be able to, like, do the score and the sound mix and the color correct and all this stuff. Yeah, you're kind of, like, holding the movie a little bit hostage. And then.

48:29

Were there any changes? Sorry.

49:19

Magic call from my agents. That was like, adam Sandler saw your film and loved it, and he wants to work with you. And I was like, what the. What the hell is happening?

49:21

You're like, I knew it. I am good at this. And then you just forward that email.

49:29

I do think directing is a lot of, like, worst day ever followed by best day ever, and.

49:34

Exactly.

49:39

Yeah.

49:39

And so then he, like, he just wanted to, like, get going. Like. Like, they wanted to shoot the movie in June, and it was, you know, late March, and so I, like, immediately, like, had to move to New Jersey, and then I would just be, like, flying back from Newark to Toronto, like, every weekend, trying.

49:40

Did you have to pitch on it or they just gave you the movie?

49:57

I did pitch on it, but I don't know. I think Adam is just, like. He's so powerful, and I think his relationship is so strong that, like, literally any other person would be like, look at I like movies and go like, no, I think we can do better,

50:00

or maybe in a couple movies, you know? Yeah, like, yeah, yeah.

50:13

But I. I don't know. He just had this, like, strong sense that I could do it. And it's almost like he saw this potential in me that I didn't even know that I knew I had, you know, and so, yeah, it was just this crazy thing where like, within two days I was like, flying to Beverly Hills to, like, pitch the movie to Netflix with him in the room. And, like, you know, I just made a lookbook in, like, three days, and we kind of, like.

50:18

Incredible.

50:41

Yeah, I mean, it was really just like, I didn't even really get nervous because I didn't have any time to do that. Like, I just. I felt like I'd already just, like, enter this different reality. So I. I didn't feel like any sense of imposter syndrome because I'm like, well, this isn't my real life. So I, you know, had you.

50:42

Had you pitched in similar circumstances without Adam Sandler in the room?

50:58

Yeah, I guess I've pitched on movies before.

51:03

Yeah. But the difference. So if so, you could highlight the difference between how, like, like, literally how many executives were in the room for the Adam Sandler pitch versus I think

51:06

there was like, five or six. Yeah, I was like the head comedy. The head of.

51:15

Sure.

51:20

Their content, you know. Yeah. The executive that I was going to work really closely with. His. His agent, you know, all of the people are there.

51:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.

51:28

In hindsight, it seems like kind of such a perfect type of person to have direct this movie because, you know, Sam, Adam Sandler, you know, kind of made a string of very broad, like, kind of exactly what you would expect type of movies that look good and had amazing cast and all those things. But, you know, we're kind of like part of this Adam Sandler style of filmmaking. And then so I'm sure that from a Netflix point of view, like, okay, these guys know how to make big bright.

51:30

You don't need to tell Adam Sandler how to make an Adam Sandler movie. Right.

51:53

But. What? Yeah,

51:56

yeah, yeah.

51:59

And I'm sure I could be wrong. I'm just making this up on the spot, but I think were so not invited to my bat mitzvah. Was one of these, like, Adam Sandler movies that had that Adam Sandler production value, but had this, like, very relatable coming of age to a. Like a new gen, like a Gen Z generation, which maybe his level people are. Have kind of lost that a little?

52:00

Well, I mean, I think one thing that was so in, you know, surprising to me is that, like, he wants to be, like, heavily involved in, like, every detail. Like, he is really, like, the auteur behind all of his films and, like, he is, like, giving thoughts about, like, costume and production Design and the locations and, you know, all the music. And like, I've had, you know, conversations with him were about like two frames, like of a shot, you know, and whether or not it's better or not. Like, he's really emotionally invested in these movies and they're not like these kind of effortless hangout films where it's like an excuse to go to Hawaii with Kevin James. Like, he is up, you know, at 4 in the morning, like thinking about the film, wanting it to be better, thinking about what's the funniest, most interesting way to tell the story. Like, he just cares, like with all his heart and soul and like his love language is collaboration. Like, he just, his whole life has just been about comedy and making things and film and art and like, he just loves and like lives to work and he's like the hardest working class person I've ever worked with. And like on this film, he was doing two movies at the same time for both his daughters that were shooting at the exact same time in New Jersey with two separate films and then about to go on like cross country comedy tour. He had just finished Jake Kelly and was like on the promotional campaign for that, like watching the movie at Venice and also developing like three other scripts. Like, he just is like, I don't. His, his stamina is insane, but he also just cares about everything immensely. And so it really taught me a lot about collaboration and just the ways that you can most effectively kind of make art with people and.

52:20

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think we're probably going to ask a similar question, Oren, so we'll see. I think that's so fascinating and it makes me think of just a few minutes ago when we were talking about the notes you were getting from a different film, right. For On Milan Kicks, you were getting different notes. What do you think was the difference in terms of how you perceived those notes? And yeah, just talk to us about the difference between receiving notes on a movie that you wrote and then receiving notes on the movie that's kind of part of this larger apparatus.

54:03

I mean, I think they really trust Adam's vision. And so they didn't really have a lot of notes because I think they just know that E is the auteur. So, you know, in a similar way, I think I had a very charmed, like, protected studio experience because he kind of is the studio in some ways and you know, Netflix, like he cares what Netflix thinks and, and wants, you know, their thoughts and opinions and stuff. But if he feels strongly that that kind of film that he wants to make, then he doesn't have to. Then. Then he's not going to do something that doesn't feel right to him.

54:32

Well, but what about notes from Adam, right? Or did you just kind of always feel more or less aligned on, you know, his point of view?

55:05

Yeah, I think the movie, like, has a really interesting tone, and it's like. It feels like me, but it also feels like Adam. And it's. It's kind of like. It's like Lady Bird meets UB Halloween or something.

55:13

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you is because I thought it's interesting to hear about the two frames. Like, Adam will be like, oh, we should cut two frames earlier. And you're like, we should cut two frames later. Because I watched the movie last night and I thought it was, like, really funny and in you, in a very different way than Milan. Kicks is funny. You know, I think my line kicks has, you know, a little bit that Scott Pilgrim ghost world, like, washes over you. Like, like you're in. You're transported into a world and. And the humor kind of comes from the authenticity of it and the, you know, kind of the insanity of the things you do and the. The personalities, you know, that are interacting with each other. This is just like. You'll just have a cut to something really funny looking. You. Have you found this actress, the. The one that plays Celeste? I've never heard of her before.

55:25

Well, Chloe East. East, yeah.

56:08

She's, like, so funny. Like, annoyingly, it should be illegal, like, how beautiful she is, you know, but she's. She just, like every time you cut to her, she's also kind of like the villain of the movie in a weird way.

56:10

Yeah.

56:22

And I just. It. It. It just felt very different in the. In the sense of comedy. I'm wondering if you could just tell us, talk a little bit about, like. Like how you kind of got, you know, you get how you get all these laughs, like, and how intentional that was or not.

56:23

Yeah, I mean, it was written by these two wonderful screenwriters, Kira Jane o' Sullivan and Jimmy Fowley, who are on snl. His writers, they did the Domingo sketch, and they come from, you know, the Groundlings and. And improv, and they're both really formidable performers and. And, you know, creators in their own right. So I think their sensibility in comic timing and just, like, instincts about what the film should be, we're were very present. And then. Yeah. And then Adam has his own sensibility and kind of rhythm and like, the way that he wants to approach a scene. And then I think we also just kind of, like, workshopped the movie a lot. Like, we did test screenings, and he would. We would film the audience on, like, an infrared camera and just watch, like, their reactions and kind of try to, like, almost game ify like, the movie of, like, okay, they're not laughing here. Like, the scene where Devin walks in on Celeste having sex in her bed. Like, the first time we did it, I was like, this should be one of, like, a really hysterical moment in the film. And the audience, like, wasn't reacting, and I. And then it was kind of like, oh, they don't understand what's going on. Like, we need, like, a weirdly explicit shot so that, like, set things up.

56:37

Like, spell it out a little bit more.

57:49

Yeah, yeah. Like, it was very interesting to me, kind of to go through this process and be like, oh, like, jokes that. I wasn't even sure if they were going to get a laugh or not. And then sometimes they would be, like, surprisingly extremely funny. And he'd be like, oh, we should keep repeating that, like, a few times, like a whole runner. And I was like, won't that be annoying? And he's like, no, that's what you do if, like, a joke gets laughed. Like, you. You do it, like, over and over again. And I was like, oh, interesting. Like, that's, like, kind of, like the SNL way of, like, comedy. And, you know, I think there are. And there are lots of surprising kind of, like, discoveries that we found just from kind of, like, almost testing it and trying things out and restructuring scenes and writing new ending and all this stuff. It was really. He would never kind of, like, settle for. This is just okay. Like, he wanted it to be the best it could possibly be.

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59:13

I know we only have a few minutes left, so I, I just want to ask if you just give us a three minute masterclass on how to shoot parties. Because there's like a lot of parties. Yeah, there's a spring break, you know, Panama City party. There's like the frat party. And then even Mile and Kicks has a lot of parties. Like parties. Yeah, Just give us like your step by step. I'm doing a party scene. How do you start figuring out how to shoot it?

59:53

Oh my God. Crazy. Well, I think you work with like two genius cinematographers, first and foremost. Like Jeremy, two DPs who shot Myelin Kicks and is about to and just shot A24's backrooms, is like a genius. Maria Rushi, who shot Roommates and shot Shiver Baby in Bottoms. Like, they're both just so excellent and very meticulous about planning things. We both shot, I think all our party scenes on Steadicam, which I think for me helps have this kind of like kinetic energy. You can sort of see through rooms and people. And I think for the first shot in Roommates, which I'm really proud of, it's like kind of a following shot. It's sort of like my version of like the opening tracking shot in Boogie

1:00:13

Nights or like Good Fellas.

1:00:56

And I was so like nerdily excited to do the shot and I was like, I like there are a lot of shots in Roommates where like, I just kind of, I didn't even know. I'd never like, executed anything that like, grand before. But like, because we had the resources and the time to do it, like, kind of could. So it's this kind of like following shot through a party where it's, it's like an ultimate Frisbee party. So it's all connected by people throwing frisbees to each other as it kind of weaves through the room.

1:00:58

And then you're like, this party's too cool. What can we do to just make it A little dweebier.

1:01:26

I mean, I think that's what's good about the movie is you sell that. Like, we buy. I mean, the cast, too. You have a guy from Martin Hurley. Yeah. From Please Don't Destroy.

1:01:32

Yeah. Genius.

1:01:41

Yeah.

1:01:42

But in terms of, like, the extras and making, like, everyone look like they're actually partying, is there something.

1:01:44

Yeah. I mean, that's tricky because I think extras and just effective blocking of extras and having extras do something that feels real but not too much, so it, like, steals focus. And I find extras in movies are always, like, agreeing with each other. Like, they're always like, yes. That's so. Anytime you look at an extra, they're always couple having dinner in a restaurant. They're always like, oh, my God. Yeah. And you don't. You know, and I. I think you want to just kind of create an atmosphere that feels like the scene that you're trying to convey, you know? So for, like, these Montreal loft parties, like, that's so specific. It's like people that are so intimidatingly cool. And then college parties. It's like, you want people who really feel like they're having a good time and connected and stuff. Because a lot of times, too, you just have, like, a thumbtack because you can't play real music in the. In the room. So people are just kind of hearing, like. And then it's like, go crazy. You're having the best time. And, like.

1:01:49

Have you done that before, Matt? I've never done a thump track.

1:02:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:02:47

And does it.

1:02:48

I did an EDM documentary once upon a time. No, it's fine. It's fine. You know, the thing that's. I find really, we'd always like, last

1:02:49

music kind of beforehand so that people at least had, like, the memory of, like, the song and kind of the vibe in their mind and, like, roll on that and then sort of transition over to, like, what we had to shoot.

1:02:56

Bring it down. Yeah. You always, like, that thing of, like, needing to talk over the music when there's no music there. That's always the hardest thing, for sure.

1:03:07

That's. That's the most. That's the thing I would. I would most want to impart is that I think a lot of times, because it's like that there's no extra sound of extras. There's no music playing. People speak really softly. And, like, if you're in the middle of a loud party, you're not being like, that's so great that we're together. You're like, that's so great, you know?

1:03:15

Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:34

I think it's like, that's always challenging. Yeah. Effective blocking, where I always like, having kind of, like, little windows of up space. And I always like looking at, like, paintings as kind of, like a reference for that stuff. Like, there's this. I went to Chicago and I went to, like, the Museum of Modern Art, and, like, Nicole Eisman had this whole exhibit called, like, Another Green World. And she has this painting called Another Green World. And I looked at it for, like, probably an hour and a half, and I tried, and it's just incredible. It's like a beautiful painting of people at a party. And there's all these little details. Like, the more you look, there's like, somebody who's, like, asleep on the couch covered in, like, the bat.

1:03:34

The.

1:04:14

The coats that people threw on them. You know, there's, like, two people making out in the corner. There's, like, a person watching someone else from across the room. There's a person entering the party and, like, the guest, the hostess, like, like, looks like, pretty upset that they're there. Like, and the more you look at this painting, just, like, the more stories you see. And, like, I think people forget what an effective tool, like production design and, like, blocking of extras can be in, like, that kind of immersive world building. Because, yeah, there's like, a million details anytime you kind of go into a packed space. And everyone at the party is in their own, you know, movie from their perspective, too. So I think if you can tell, like, many stories. And then I remember talking once to this production designer who I wasn't able to hire, but they said this really cool thing about how with production design, it's cool to tell stories from the night before, you know, I love that.

1:04:14

That's great.

1:05:05

Yeah.

1:05:06

Yeah.

1:05:06

And that really was so fundamental and interesting to me too, about, like, how you can, you know, how production design isn't just what is happening the same right then, but it's like, what happened, like, three weeks ago or two days ago. Especially when you're doing, like, frat house or.

1:05:07

Yeah, right. Pizza boxes.

1:05:21

Yeah.

1:05:23

I love that so much. It makes me think of, like, when people talk about doing period films. The student film version of a period film is like, everyone bought everything in 1956. And, like, no, that's not true.

1:05:24

Right.

1:05:36

Like, you don't buy everything new and make it all contemporary to the era. It's like, you've got to have 20 years of period stuff leading up to the year.

1:05:36

Back then, people kept stuff.

1:05:45

Don't get me started on all the old iPhones that you had and how you sourced those. That's a conversation for another day.

1:05:49

Yeah, I know we're gonna lose you in a few minutes, so I think we're gonna, in our intro, we'll tell people how they can watch the movies. Obviously, Roommates is on Netflix probably when this comes out. Mile End kicks is you have distribution, right?

1:05:55

Yeah, it's playing theatrically across the States and Canada, and it opens on April 17th through this really exciting new company called Sumerian Pictures.

1:06:08

It's crazy. Almost the same time, right? And roommate is April 19th.

1:06:17

No, they're both the same day.

1:06:21

That's why it's so hard to book Chandler Oren. She's doing double press. She's Adam Sandler.

1:06:22

Let's just do one thing that's just specific to our podcast real quick, which is at the end, we just do something we're really into. We call it unpaid endorsements. Do you have just two minutes to do that with us?

1:06:29

Sure.

1:06:38

Unpaid endorsements. So my unpaid endorsement, it's a little wishy washy, but thinking about our conversation and films that we imprinted on, as you said. Right. Or just movies that we deeply love and have become part of our filmmaking identity. I rewatched Akira over the weekend. My sister in law, who loves animation, had never seen it, and boy, I really love that movie. And so much of what it's doing from a camera placement perspective is stuff that I endeavor to do. You know, I think the scope is so massive and because it's animated, they can put the camera wherever they want. But, like, it's just a masterpiece. But. So I'm endorsing if you haven't seen Akira, go ahead and watch it again or go ahead and watch it or revisit it. But really what I'm getting at is like, there's probably a movie you haven't watched in 10 years that you deeply love. And I think this is a reminder to just go back, treat yourself to something that feels like a little bit of a memory that will maybe rekindle something in you. That's my endorsement. Chandler. Hopefully you have something more concrete than watching old movies.

1:06:38

Well, I'm going to give a shout out to my friend Grace Glowicki, who made this film called Dead Lover that she acted, wrote, you know, produced and stars in. And it's really, really crazy movie that she filmed in Canada with the same grant that I used at Town's Watch Grant. And it, there's like, it's just this, like, it's sort of like her take on Frankenstein. She plays like a 19th century gravedigger who really wants to have sex, but, like, she smells too bad of dead corpses.

1:07:47

I was gonna say there's a lot they say Stinky. They call her stinky in all of the press materials. And I was like, okay, stinky. All right.

1:08:20

And she meets this like, really wonderful, kind of like lordly, like, kind of Byronic poet, and they have this sort of love affair and then he dies and she figures out how to, like, resurrect his. His corpse so that she can continue to have a lover. And it's. It's unbelievably amazing. Completely bizarre, wonderfully funny. So brilliant. Great cast of only four people that are playing multiple roles, and it's just like a tour de force. And I watched LA recently and they had these scratch and sniff cards. So every time you watch it, you can scratch and there's like a different smell that's like, connected to the movie

1:08:27

and smell of vision.

1:09:09

Right?

1:09:10

So fun and wonderful. And, you know, I just. I think her and her husband, slash collaborator Ben Petrie, like, there's just two incredible Canadian filmmakers. Everything they've made together from Tito, Ben made this movie last year that starred Grace and her. Her called the Heirloom. That is just. Also just a wonderful, wonderful movie about, you know, a couple that's struggling and they adopt a dog and. And how that changes their relationship. So simple, but so assured. And they just inspire me so much. Like, I've always wanted to have that kind of like Gina Rollins, like, John Castanetti's kind of relationship where you're like, making art with your partner and. And they just have such a beautiful collaboration and really, really inspire me. So go see Lover and watch the Heirloom and watch Tito, Grace's first feature and watch her friend Adam Ben, short film that stars Grace and just, you know, revel in their. Their mastery.

1:09:10

Cool. That's a really good one.

1:10:01

Love it. What you got?

1:10:03

So there's this podcast, I. I assume it's pretty big. I didn't really know it, but it's called the Big Picture. And they had.

1:10:04

Oh, yeah, of course.

1:10:10

And this guy on to talk about directing named Steven Spielberg. And you should check it out. There was a few takeaways that I thought were really interesting. First of all, Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan. No shot list, no storyboards, nothing. He said on like, Ready Player one,

1:10:11

Saving Private Ryan, they didn't have a shot list.

1:10:27

That's what he said. And he shoots that. He. He said those movies were shot more or less in continuity. So they're like, okay, next, what's the next scene? And he would wake up in the morning and figure it out. You know, that's cool. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah. He said, like, the. The vf. Big VFX movies. Everything is storyboarded.

1:10:29

Yeah.

1:10:45

But the movies where it's like, more people in places, you know, I've heard

1:10:46

people say that more and more that they. It's kind of freeing to not have a shot list and. Oh, yeah, there's been a couple scenes where.

1:10:50

Love it.

1:10:57

I tried that approach. Not because I didn't make the final. Not because my thought list was no longer relevant for the time that we had. But it becomes kind of a fun challenge. Like it was. It's sort of exciting to be like, how do I collapse these, like, shots, two or three or two, in about

1:10:58

45 minutes before the sun goes down, basically.

1:11:15

Yeah. I mean, not good for the old blood pressure, but. Yeah.

1:11:17

I mean, that's how they made, like, Rosemary's Baby and stuff. You know, they rehearse in the first half of the day and then. Then. And Tim Burton, too, would be like, come on set and be like, where's. Where should I put. Where's the most interesting place to put the camera? And then.

1:11:21

I mean, I would love to work that way. I think that is so cool. And I've. I've heard more and more people kind of say that that's their approach. It seems very European. You go. And it's almost like being like a. Like a. In like a British company or something. And. Yeah, you. You rehearse with your actors and then you shoot in the afternoon and then you leave at 5. And.

1:11:32

Yeah.

1:11:51

Yeah.

1:11:52

I wonder how much of that just boils down to, like, vfx. Right. But then also, like, other stakeholders. Holders. Right. To your point of like, oh, financiers have notes. It's like, well, sure, you know, like, that's a shot. Lists can be another version of oversight for people who have, you know.

1:11:52

Yeah. And resources, too. You can only build a part, tiny part of the set. You know, where are you going to point the camera at?

1:12:08

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I mean, I don't think that, like, I always find the shot list generally is just kind of. For me and the DP and the ad, usually as a tool. Like, I don't find generally that people are looking at my shawlist and being like, you know, this is crazy. Or like, we don't like planning on covering this scene that usually comes later.

1:12:14

Yeah. Orin and I work in commercials, so. Yeah.

1:12:34

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:12:38

Then.

1:12:39

Yes. Yeah. Then they're like, yeah, yeah.

1:12:39

You're like, okay, well, advantages, too, I guess.

1:12:42

But, you know, the one other thing that Spielberg said that I thought was kind of heartwarming is he was asked, like, what he does when he's not directing, like, if he has any hobbies. And he said, well, directing is actually, like. I think of it as what's in my second position. My first position is, like, focusing on. He has seven kids. He has. Two of them are adopted, and he has six grandkids, I think. And he said he tried to be. To go on Instagram. He installed it on his phone for two weeks, and he's like, just. Hours of my life disappeared. So I. I don't do social media, but in order to stay, you know, contemporary and know what's going on in the world and what people care about, like, I have to hang out with my kids because they are on social media. And so I thought that, you know, he's a guy that's so relevant. He'll watch. You know, he obviously votes for the Academy Awards. He said he'll watch every single short doc, every single thing. And he's, like, very up to date on movies. But anyway, it was a fun. Fun to see what he prioritizes.

1:12:44

Wow. I met. I got to meet him, like, really briefly on my last day at the lot when we were doing the sound mix for Roommates. And it was such.

1:13:35

That you were a director.

1:13:43

It was such a crazy moment because I. I was holding, like, a giant box of. I think I was holding, like, a burrito. Yeah.

1:13:44

You're like, hello. Yeah.

1:13:51

And then I literally saw him in the distance smoking a cigar. It was, like, such a fable.

1:13:54

Wow.

1:13:59

Moment.

1:13:59

Oh, interesting.

1:14:00

I didn't know.

1:14:00

And then I was like, I. You know, and he's alone. And I was like, I have to talk to him. Like, God doesn't just, like, present as Steven Philberg in the Wild, and you don't say anything. So I. I went over to him and I introduced myself and I said I was making a movie on the lot and that I was a writer director. And he's like, well, what's your first movie called? I'm like, it's called I Like Movies. And he's. And I was like. And actually, like, our. Our lead character, like, a lot of our costume design was based on, like, photos of you on set directing Jaws and That's the reason you wears a cowboy hat. And he's like, well, I don't wear them anymore. He looked awesome. He had like the coolest outfit I've ever seen on. He had this, like, little, like, neckerchief, like this green neckerchief that he nodded like, like by his neck. And I, I bought one, like the next day and I've been wearing it.

1:14:01

That's great. Yeah, I would absolutely do that for sure.

1:14:48

But I always try to dress like Steven Spielberg on set because I think he has the coolest director style and he always wears his own merch.

1:14:51

That's what I do. And Matt doesn't.

1:14:59

I wore, I wore like this T shirt on set and I remember Natasha Lee Young coming up and going, big dick move.

1:15:01

Big dick move. Sounds like something she'd say. You're like, yeah, I guess so.

1:15:07

Okay, that's the end of the podcast.

1:15:12

Yeah, yeah, sure. And out black.

1:15:14

Well, if you guys have spoken to Steven Spielberg and would like to tell us what you said to him, please email us@justutapodgmail.com or find us on social media at justutapod. I'm on Instagram at Oren Kaplan and

1:15:16

I'm mrmatinlow across all social media. This episode. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyang. Thanks, Kevin. Our social media is done by Lily Bouvia. Thanks, Lily. And produced by Tyler Chimal. Thanks, Tyler. And you're listening to music provided by the Music Archive and the artist Jazzar.

1:15:28

Thanks a lot. Bye.

1:15:41

Bye.

1:15:41

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