482: The Secrets We Bury

I don't know what to say about this one. Oh, I have plenty. I can help you out. Do you need some thought starters? Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe. Maybe ideas? Okay, yeah, sure. I'll help you out. Okay, thanks. Hi, Jelena Benzavali. Hello, Patrick Hines. Fam, I said this last time, I'm not going to stop saying it. We're up to 205,000 YouTube subscribers. 205,000. Hi, UBs. If you want to watch us do this. For better or worse. I think it's really worthwhile. It's very fun. We're very animated. It's True Crime Obsessed podcast on the UBs. Yep. Oh, we also have a Patreon. We have over 500 full ad-free bonus episodes to download and binge right this second. You get them all when we set up. Name three of your favorite series. Well, right now we're doing that Philly Mob thing on Netflix. It is. Join just for that and quit right after if you want to. But it is banana pants. It's absolutely bananas. We also did Stalking Samantha, which is excellent. 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Yes. which we have people from Australia you know and we've gotten a lot of feedback that sometimes like even a couple of weeks notice like if we tell you at the beginning of the month it's not enough time for some people everyone's very busy so we're doing it once again March, June, October and December you will have plenty of time time zones be damp exactly we're all hanging out and it's the best ever the playlist is fun Drag Bingo was always the funnest night of my month still is so now it's gonna be the funnest night of my quarter there you go of the season of the season you know what are we talking about today what are we screaming about today it's called of the secrets we bury. It's on HBO Max. And it's a whole, there's like a lot going on here. There's no other way around it. This story is wild. There's psychics. Yeah. Who turns out to be right? Super right. There's a whole lot. I know. I grew up in what I thought was a pretty normal family. One morning, dad went out to the store to get a pack of cigarettes and he never came back. He disappeared off the face of the earth. On her deathbed, I asked her, Mom, can you tell me anything about that before you leave? My mother literally turned her head, winked at me, and then passed away. Maybe he was involved with organized crime. There was no police report. He left, but the car was there, and his wallet was there. I asked Mike to come to the psychic with me And I said to myself This is bullcrap I just want to know where my dad is The psychic goes, oh The M word Murder He is in the basement I lived in this house all my life That's when I made this decision I said, I'm going to go find him I'm going to dig I had a mission People looked at me like, you're crazy We were digging for months. There was nothing. All of a sudden, I hit something with the shovel. We're in Lake Grove, Long Island. We meet Mike Carroll. He's lived in this house his entire life for 63 years. There's a lot of reasons why that is that we'll get into. He gives us a tour. He goes, this is where I grew up. You know, we play wiffle ball and all kinds of crap. Mike Carroll is a Trumper. I just want to let you know I'm in queue. I am a QAnon. I am a patriot. I'm a crazy bastard. He describes himself as a crazy bastard. And a patriot. And he's also a hoarder. He says collector, but he's a hoarder. Let me say something. Let me just say this. There's something likable about this guy. Well, look, he is very honest. Well, no, not really. I mean, about some things. But there are parts of him where it's like... He's very emotional. He's been through it. He's here to tell the story. We will eventually learn how Mike got here. Yes. There's like a lot of abuse and trauma in his life. And hoarding is a psychological disorder. Yes. And as far as I'm concerned, my opinion, like so is being in QAnon. Yes. Are people still doing that? Don't we have bigger fish to fry at this point? I think they've all. Yeah. It's around. I think they all joined a certain. A certain other cult. A certain other cult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Wait, we're only two minutes in, girl. It's going to be a long... But all I'm saying is, when I first watched this documentary and I heard that, I was like, well, how am I going to be on this guy's side? But then it doesn't take long to sort of be on his side. Well, remember in Kings of Tupelo, also on Patreon, where this guy had all the time in the world to just go down internet rabbit holes and go to the... You can kind of see, based on everything we've covered, even the Flat Earth documentary, how someone can get here. 100%. And it's like when you're sad, the internet will feed you the stuff to make you sadder. Right. You know? So, plus hoarding. It's like a whole thing. Yeah. Well, Mike's sons are here, Chris and Michael. They are wonderful. And they are the first to be like, we don't really agree with our dad on a lot of stuff, but we love him anyway. Michael says he has very abstract beliefs. And I'm like, that's one way to put it. Yeah. But look, they've tried to help him with the house many, many, many times. And they explain, we'll clean it up. It'll stay that way for like a week or two. And then it will just become a mess again. Yeah. I mean, when you are living like that, if you don't want to fix it, it's not going to get fixed. Your family can come in a million times and clean it up. But if you don't want to change the way, then it's not going to change. Well, because I think it's... It's like me and the coffee creamer. Right. And we'll learn why. It gives him a lot of comfort to live this way. Yeah. And we'll, like, no one talks about the trauma. Like, we'll talk about it. But, like, him calling himself a collector. Yeah. Like, he says, he was like... Okay, I am a collector. I don't believe on throwing things out because you're going to need it like 10 years down the road. That screw that doesn't go anywhere, it has to go somewhere down the road, right? It has to go somewhere and that's why I'm saving it. I'm like, oh, there's a method to this madness for lack of a better term. And also, like, they don't really talk about this enough in the documentary, but the house is the main character of this documentary. Mike can never leave this house. Mike will die in that house. By design, I think. You know, he doesn't want to leave it. And just to be clear, we'll get there later, but like, this is a house he grew up in that he eventually buys from his mother and, like, lives there and raises his family there. And now he's, like, an older man living there. Like, he literally has lived in that house from the time he was born. Yeah. Girl, Rocket Money is back. 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Everybody hates facing their finances, but when you do it and you see it all in one place, it's so easy to understand. And that's important if you have like financial goals or if you want to change where certain money is going. Seeing it all in one place is super, super helpful. Yeah, I love it. I use it all the time. I live by it. So fam, let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at rocketmoney.com slash obsessed. That's rocketmoney.com slash obsessed. Rocketmoney.com slash obsessed. You heard her. Yeah, and I'll say it again. Thank you so much. Rocketmoney.com slash obsessed. So Mike's childhood, he explains, like, they grew up in a nice neighborhood. He's the youngest of four kids. We will meet Jean. We will meet Steve. We will not meet Pat. We hear about her, but Mike says she's a little complicated, but that's a different story. That is a total mischaracterization of what happened. We will get to it later. And I would like the Pat documentary while we're on the subject. I would love to speak to her and tell her that she's seen and heard, but that's a conversation. I've seen and heard, and I would like to give her the platform to tell her story. I agree. So there's a guy named Richard. Mike Carroll says he grew up thinking this was his dad. This is not his biological father, Richard. No. George Carroll is their biological father. Yeah, and then we meet Jean. Jean is Mike's sister, very complicated character. She's, Mike is seven years younger than her. She says, now, I want to say one thing about Jean, because she's complicated. I know we're going to have a lot of strong feelings about her. I do think there is something to being the oldest. and I've gone through this a little bit with my older sister where we had a really hard time for a really long time because we remember our childhoods very differently because she was the oldest. She was right in seventh grade when our parents got divorced, when my mom came out as a lesbian, when we went from being like middle class to being very poor. Like, my point with Jean is I have a lot of trouble with some of the stuff that she says at some points, but I give her a little room for being the oldest and remembering more than everybody else. Sure, and like, you know, And experiencing more. Yeah. Yeah, because she says Mike, our main narrator here, was too young to remember their father, but she does. And she says... I remember him around me all the time. I know I was daddy's girl. You know, my dad was there, and then all of a sudden my dad wasn't there. My mother would say to us that dad went out to the store to get a pack of cigarettes, and he never came back. These kids really struggle with the abandonment of their father and the stories they were told about that abandonment during their growing up. From their mother. From their mother and the mother's new husband, neither of which had anything nice to say about the dad that vanished. I mean, their mother literally told them, like, a stereotypical, like, the trope, like, what you see in the movies. He went out for cigarettes and never came back. That's what the mother tells the kids. And Mike says, like, as they were growing up, there were a lot of rumors over the years of, like, what happened to him. Like, was he killed by organized crime? or like, did he meet a woman in the Korean war and go back to like live with her? You know, and like at some point they say like, he left us because he didn't love us anymore and he loved whoever he left us for more than us. Right, and so Dorothy, the mom's like, look, this George is a super bad guy. Don't miss him. Don't even think about him. Like he sucked, really? Which is completely not fair to the kids. And also not how it works. It's not how it works. The kids, like this woman, Dorothy, the mother, we're gonna learn a lot about her. The kids, no matter what, she can do no wrong. Or even if she has done wrong, they forgive her and they love her. And like she really like saying these things about the dad really messes kids up. Now we're going to. And they're kids. Of course, they were going to believe her. It's formative years. They're already traumatized and nobody talks about the trauma, really. Yep. And we will learn later that according to some people, the dad George was abusive to the mother. And I want to say that that's very real. It's like it's quite possible that he was not a great guy. but she just expects that because she's happy that he's gone that she can tell the kids to just forget about him and that they're just going to do that yeah it's not I've said this before there's someone incredibly close to me who lost their dad at a very young age and was not allowed to mourn him because it was like a bummer for the rest of the family not that his dad was an awful guy but like all the pictures came down and then they had to not talk about it at home and as a child when you're eight years old that's awful is fucking awful And that is sort of under the same umbrella of like, well, don't talk about him. You should hate him anyway. And it's like, wait, that was my dad. Like, what? And this was obviously like decades before kids were just like thrown into therapy as they should be when their parents get divorced. You know what I mean? No one's talking about any emotional trauma. And basically the mother just doesn't want to talk about the dad at all. And so the mom marries Mr. Daris almost immediately. And so Jean explains, look. In the 60s, 70s, most women didn't work. So for my mother, when my dad left, how was she going to survive through that time with no income coming in? My mom had to do what she had to do. And that's how the relationship between my mother and Mr. Darius developed. Her mom did what she had to do to provide for her kids. Now, that's also real. Sure. You know what I mean? Like, this guy turns out to be so fucking awful. He is awful. but I think it's really true that a lot of women really were stuck in a position of what do I do I don't I haven't worked I can't work I have four kids I need to take care of what do I do and so this Richard Daris guy we're told like he was just some dude from the neighborhood it was convenient it was seamless he just swooped in replaced the dad and everybody says every all of these siblings here he was not a good guy he was super mean Mike our narrator starts crying talking about it everyone was miserable when Mike started crying Like, that was the first moment I was like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, can I, Mikey, can I give you a hug? Like, everyone is miserable, but they're immediately like cue Book of Mormon. They shove their feelings way deep down. They turn it off. They, quote, moved on. And let me tell you, not a single person here has moved on. No. They like to say that they have. Yes. Because they probably weren't allowed to feel anything because their mother was a narcissistic, abusive asshole. Yeah. And Mikey even says, like, throughout his childhood, like, he would spend all his days wishing that his dad would come back and it would be the best day of his life. But as they get older, they have to just accept that that's never happening. But they had to act like everything was fine. So, like, don't miss your dad. Don't be sad about being abandoned. Love this mean new stepdad and act like everything's fine. Exactly. Exactly. That's not the first time you'll hear me say woof. No, I love this woof on you, though. Thank you. So Mike had a paper route as a kid. And he said he got it. I remember I had a paper route as a kid as well. Coolest gig ever. Yeah, because, like, you know, everybody, you get tipped sometimes, whatever. And people recognize you. He loved the recognition. He was like, I knew the streets. I knew the people. he was like a man about town. He's a man about town at nine years old. But he said there was one house on his route. Is it route or route? I never know. I think it's interchangeable. It's like data and data. Yeah. I go back and forth every time. I had to say it in my audiobook and I didn't know which way to go. I gave them two options. Yeah. Paper route, paper route. But they do. I don't remember. Even I listen to my own audiobook on Dolph's Bean. Well, you don't have to listen to it. You lived it and wrote it. And that's true. And then I recorded it. Snook it. Which I thought was going to be fun but was not. Oh, I can imagine. Recording your own audiobook. It wasn't, I would do it again if I ever wrote another one, but it wasn't as fun. Yeah, it's not as easy as you. I can imagine that. My voice was going. I had to stand the whole time. It was kind of exhausting. And then you have to make it sound like you didn't just stop. You know, it has to sound like a story. Can I tell you one more thing about it? I read the book at the pace I thought that it should be. You know, like you write comedy, you read it at the, Audible has a thing that they do where they put it through a program and all of their books are equally paced. So it doesn't matter the speed you read it at. And then people can decide to go like 1.25 or 1.25. They slowed you down? I think they, yeah, yeah, yeah. They definitely slowed me down. But then you're, and then I guess change the pitch or whatever. Because when you slow down, like people have done that too. Because they're like, why do Patrick and Juliet sound fucking hammered? And why are their voices so low? And then they're like, oh, I changed the speed of the safe. So, interesting. The magic of the internet, I don't know what they did, but it was not as fast as I wanted it to be. Whatever. Anyway. So there's this yellow house and it stuck out to Mike as he was delivering papers. It had a pool with white fence and a big, big freaking yard. It was a very pretty yard. It stuck out, okay? I just said, they got money. Mr. Yagle, who owned that house, he gave the worst tips, man. Mr. Yagle, shittiest tipper on the block. The worst? That makes me crazy. I know. So Yagle sucks, right? And so one day, years later, Mike is at home. He's hanging out. And Mr. Yagle from the yellow house comes over to talk to Mike's mom and give her this box. And Mike's like, wait, what is he doing here? And just to be clear, the Yagle estate was like just a couple doors down. Like these people, Yagles lived close enough to Mike that he was on his paper route. Right. And so like years later, he's like, what the hell is Mr. Yagle doing here? Why is he giving my mom a box? And why are they having this heated conversation on the front porch? Like what exactly is going on here? He says there was anger. Yeah. What? And so it turns out the box is full of Mike's missing dad's stuff. Yeah. And it turns out the mom just says nonchalantly that this guy, Yagel, used to be married to your dad's mother, meaning this guy was married to your grandmother. And the grandmother that you never met, even though she lived down the block and didn't tip you well. You delivered her papers. Just died. And now I have all of the belongings that belong to your dad that you're not allowed to care about and you have to hate him and don't even think about it and everybody shut up. I mean, the thing that Mike is going through in this moment is like... I collected from that house for years. And my grandmother was there. And she never said hello. And I said to myself, what happened here? Like, you know, something happened to that. There's something drastically wrong with this story. And somebody's lying. My grandmother was there? She never said hello to me? She's like, yeah, like in the neighborhood. And they were bad tippers to this kid that they knew was her grandson. Like when we'll start to get answers towards the end of this thing. And I want to come back to this moment because I have a lot of questions about what is going on. These people are awful. Awful. Awful. And so Dorothy, the mom, was on a very, very, very high pedestal. All the adult kids here are very protective and defensive of her. Even now, they will not say a bad word about her, even though they absolutely should. Yeah. But she also like perpetuated this. Like growing up, Mike says everything she said was gospel. So when she when they're kids and they're emotional and they're vulnerable and they're going through this horrible thing. And when their dad left and she tells them he was a bad guy, don't worry about it. Like that's their mom, their children. They're going to believe her. Right. And so as they're getting older, they say they start to ask questions. Now, Jean is the first one to realize there was never a police report filed for her dad. and nobody reported him missing. That is crazy. Right. And what's crazier is that even though he left, his car was still there. Yeah. His wallet was still there. And his last paycheck was never picked up, not by him or anyone else. Yeah. And it's like, and then when Mike, like armed with this information, would go to his mom to talk to her about it, she'd get like mad at him. Yeah. You know? She sounds- What are you hiding, Dorothy? Everything. Yeah. She sounds like a fucking nightmare. And like this whole- Don't say that to Mike. He'll get QAnon after you. I say it right to his face I know That the truth And if you want to hoard stuff instead of going to therapy that on you Like honestly Yeah Because there a lot here And I hope that maybe after they talked about it and sat down and watched this they realize like wait Well, and I will say that when we get to the— I'm not saying it's easy. No, of course. When we get to the end of this, they do start to question the mother's pedestal, I think, at the end, which I think is good. Because I think they're calling it something that it's not—they're saying pedestal, her word was gospel. She was a tyrant. Yeah. She was abusive. She was controlling. Yeah. And they're not using those words. No, but also just to like play devil's advocate, she's also all they have. Fine. You know what I mean? And she's using that against them to wield her power. As we learn more about Richard, the new husband and how awful he was, it was sort of like, they're all living in this world where we're all kind of in this together. Girl, Momentus is back. This is all about the creatine. I'm telling you, since I started my weightlifting journey, I've been taking Momentus and I absolutely love it. And also, I was one of those people who thought that creatine was only for gaining muscle. No. That is wrong. Yeah. 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Let's take it with you everywhere you go. Yeah, with Momentus, the fundamentals are done right. So fam, right now, Momentus is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first subscription order with promo code TCO. Go to livemomentus.com and use promo code TCO for up to 35% off your first subscription order. That's livemomentus.com, promo code TCO. But you got to do it with vibrato. Yeah, of course, obviously. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, what's the point? So Mike tells us he graduates high school at 18 years old. I was the first person to go to college in this family. I ended up being a respiratory therapist, working critical care. Now I'm making money. I was living my life. He became a respiratory therapist. Mike is a smart guy. Yeah, he's working in critical care. Yeah, I mean, like, really hard job and, like, takes a certain kind of person in. Like, Mike is an onion. You know what I mean? He's got a lot. This is what I mean. Like, you don't wake up and decide to be QAnon. Like, things lead you there. And we're seeing that slowly. And like, that's a lot of what this documentary is about too. Like unchecked mental health. Well, the things we bury. Like that's quite, the secrets we bury, it's called. Like what a, I was really thinking about the nuance of that today. Because how many times do all of these now grown adult children say like, oh, I just pushed it down. Oh, we just moved on. Oh, everything was fine. Like, oh. Which is honestly not unique to them. Like it's so a product of the time. But, you know, Jean is saying that around that time, like around the time that Mike is like living his professional life, mom and Richard get a divorce. The mean stepdad, Richard. The mean guy. So they're all kind of like young adults now. And he was cheating on her. She took his suitcase and threw it out the front door. Go, Dorothy. Mike says that day, he goes, it was a good day. And then he says it again, he goes, it was a good day. These kids hated this man. But also, it's no coincidence to me that the kids are now old enough to take care of the mom. You know what I mean? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, to me, this is all very, it's like a checklist. Yes. Yeah, but she says like after Richard left, mom was a completely different person. She felt free. She was fun. She starts doing skit nights. Skit nights are freaking awesome, man. It was right in this room. This was a four-car garage. It was a freaking auditorium with seats and shit. My mom, she was the queen of the night because she was a frustrated actress. She was a frustrated actress. She would put on skit nights once a week. Those are Mike's words, frustrated actress. frustrated actress. And we see a home video of these skit nights. They're wild. They're wild. You know, seats, curtains, like performances. They taped all of them. I mean, like, would you be into that if your family... I mean, well, so Debbie is Mike's ex-wife. And she met... The first time she meets the entire family is at one of these skit nights. Yes. It's a big ask. Oh, my God. To meet them during this big night where you know Dorothy was being a fucking nightmare. Yeah, skit night is totally up my alley. Like, if you're out there, fam, and you're having a skit night, invite me. I'll be there. Yeah. I just don't want to go to this one. No, truly, truly. Yeah. Because Debbie's like, no, it was fun. Yeah, it was fun. I'm just a little shy. Debbie doesn't last super long in this family. I don't think Dorothy was very nice to Debbie. Of course. Yeah. So Mike and Debbie, they get married in July of 1989. Debbie gets pregnant right away. And now that Dorothy, the mom, is not married, she's struggling financially, understandably, right? Like she's having trouble paying the bills and she's scared she's going to lose the house. And this is when She gets really like, I'm not leaving that house. I've been here for 50 years. And one of the kids says she was very, very attached to that house, which could be like, well, of course she is. Or it could be for other reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Mike swoops in. Mike and Debbie swoop in. They buy the house. Now, I was surprised to hear this. We moved into the upstairs. She was downstairs. It was tough. It was not easy. One day, Debbie told me she was unhappy. And I said, I can't make you happy. I was divorced in 95. Mike, the look of dread on his face talking about how awful this living situation was. It doesn't have to be. Like, it seems like. No, Dorothy made it that way. Yeah, I guess. I mean, the baby probably didn't help. I'm surprised at all the people in this example. You're taking, you're blaming the mom and not the baby. A hundred percent. I'm blaming Dorothy for pretty much all of this. Yeah. Like, I can't imagine she was helpful or nice or kind or warm or not a fucking tyrant because it's still her house. I know. And that to me was what was surprising. It's the warmth. I feel like there was absolutely— Freezing cold in that house. Freezing cold. I'm sure there was a lot of criticism about the way that Debbie, like, ran her family, you know. So it was a miserable living situation so much to the point that Debbie in 95 was like, bitch, I'm out of here. After six years, they're out. So soon after that, Dorothy, the mom, is diagnosed with cancer. and she doesn't want to die in the hospital. She still wants to stay in the house. So she begs Mike and Mike's like, all right, I'll make it happen. Can I just ask you, and I mean this truly not like I'm not being funny. Like what's so bad about dying in the hospital? Isn't that where they have all like the pain drugs? Yeah. You know? She doesn't want to leave the house. Well, she doesn't want to leave. Erin, can we get a slow zoom on Jillian? She doesn't want to leave the house. Like not until she's got to, you know what I mean? She doesn't want to leave the house. So she kind of frames it as like, I just want to like die in this house that I love so much. And I guess Mike, they don't elaborate, but I guess he like sets her up in the house because he has all of this medical experience. He says he'll take care of it. We get the sense the end is nigh. Like it's not, you know what I mean? It's not going to be a protracted diet. And I think to be fair, like in a situation that's not this specific one, it can be very sterile. It can be not warm in a hospital. Listen, I want to say again, I wasn't being glib. I've seen older people that I love very much die, and they died in the hospital comfortably. And I just remember thinking, like, they got you there. You know what I mean? Yeah. If we didn't know the end of this story, I'd say, like, well, I think she does want to be in the house that she loved, the house mental health tour and whatever. But we'll see. Steve, get me to the hospital. As soon as my fever gets to 101. Yeah. You know what I mean? Those fluorescent lights. I know. So on her deathbed. On her deathbed, I asked her, Mom, can you tell me anything about that? Can you tell me anything about that before you leave? My mother literally turned her head, winked at me, never said a word, and then passed away. She never said a word, and then she passed away. Woof again. Woof again. But the wink is very like, what the fuck, Dorothy? I know. Like, once we're at the end of this, remember that wink. Because it's like, oh, she's just a cruel, evil. She's playing an evil game of chess with all of these emotions here. I agree. It's also, the kids at the end of this are very thoughtful about this decision of Dorothy's, and I have thoughts on their thoughts. Okay. So we're back with Chris, Mike's son, and he's saying that, like, Mike's mom's death devastated Mike. Well, this is when the hoarding started. And that's when the hoarding starts. And so, once again, though, Mike is here to tell us how he let go of all of the things he was feeling, especially about his father. and once his mother died, he figures he's never going to get that information. So he, quote, lets it go. And I'm like, he does not let it go. In fact, he starts hoarding. In fact, he starts holding onto things. Yes, yes. But people who haven't been through therapy and don't understand that that's what they're doing. You know what I mean? Yes, of course. It's very easy for me to sit here and say this. Well, I'm not saying that. I know you have the biggest heart in the world. I know you weren't trying to say anything mean, but like my thought, and I don't know anything about this, but like when you're doing the hoarding, does that feel good? You know what I mean? I don't know. I think it must get to a point where you feel consumed by, because it is a compulsion, right? Yeah, I guess. It's an actual, like, psychological disorder. It's, like, classified as such. Yeah. So, like, I think you must kind of feel like any addiction, maybe, where it's like, I hate this. Yes. But this is where I live now. Yeah. In all senses, you know? I guess that's true. I guess that's true. I would think that eventually there becomes a point. Like, I don't think anyone is enjoying when you see like the ultimate extreme, extreme, extreme cases where there's like feces everywhere and like dead animals. Like, I can't imagine everyone's like a home sweet home. Like, I think it's like everything. They're like trapped. Well, anyway, Mike tells us a few years later, he gets called into work at 3 a.m. Remember, he like works in the emergency room. This guy's got like a serious medical job. He says, I was thinking of you. Three o'clock in the morning is kind of like the beginning of the witching hour. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, but three, four or five in the morning, you start to get a little weird. 3 a.m. is the beginning of the witching hour. He reminds us. Things start to get weird. He's 100% right. I think about this, and I'm just saying I'm often walking golden at 4 in the morning. And it's dark. Yeah. And it looks like Gotham City. And I'm like, my workday is just starting, but this is the witching hour. Yeah. And it is witchy out. It is. Like, 3 a.m. is supposed to be, you know, take this however you want. When you and your girls go into the woods with your cauldrons. It's because that's when the veil is thinnest. like sort of the barrier between the living and the dead is sort of not as strong as it is that maybe now at 450. Uh-huh. In the middle of the day and basically Times Square, New York City. You know what I mean? The veil is pretty thick right now. It's pretty thick. You're swimming through that shit. So Mike gets called into work to do something I had to Google. He gets called in to give a blood gas test at the emergency room. You Googled that? I Googled it because I was like, I feel it scares me. Yeah. Like the idea of it, the visualization I have is like not good. So I was like, I need to calm my nerves. Like, I can't add this to my fucking... So you have to see it. I didn't have to. I don't want to see it. I just need to know what it was. What it was. A blood gas test measures the amount of oxygen and carbon dioxide in a sample of your blood. So respiratory therapists, which is what Mike is, registered nurses and physicians can administer the test, often in critical care or ER settings. So there you go. Great. He's just doing, I don't know, he's doing a thing. Well, he's sent to bed number three. I check his band and it says Jagle on it. And I'm like, something hits a button. I'm like, whoa. has the same name as the guy that brought the box to my mother's house with my dad's stuff in it. I'm like, what the heck's going on? So I go, did you live around Concomore? He goes, no, my parents did. The guy in bed three is Mike's uncle. He goes, hey, I'm your dad's brother. Yeah. Hello? This guy can't catch a break. It's like surprise on surprise. And they're always big bombs when he learns about his family. Let me tell you, like, the psychic is going to be correct in this. The universe was making this happen. Well, like— You know what I mean? Like, Mike— We are going to meet a psychic who knows real shit. Mike didn't even know that his dad had a brother. Right. So to hear, like, to just be like, Yagle, like, how do you know those— or, like, how are you connecting? It's like, oh, I'm your dad's brother. I'm the closest relative. Like, what? Girl, Fabletics is back. We love them. 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You're going to ace it. It's basically open book. And then you're going to look amazing. Exactly. This Yagle guy is telling Mike all about his dad. And the guy says, all I can tell you is that your dad never, ever would have left his four kids. We have a suspicion that something happened. There was construction being done at your house at the time. it would have been a perfect opportunity for somebody to do something to your dad. And we think your father, my brother, is buried underneath the house you've been living in your entire life. No, here's my question. Buried underneath the house? The house that you've been living in for 63 years. But why did his own family not file a missing persons report? That's my question written right here. You know what I mean? Did they ever tell police about this? Did they? I mean, I'm sure it's like, okay, sure, Jan. Like, I don't know. But at least file a report. Like, no missing persons report for this guy? I have no information on what that's going to happen. And we never get it. I can just keep asking in higher octaves, but we're never going to know, I guess. And we also have no idea anything. Like, maybe we could get information, but Mike ends the conversation. But then he starts talking about my mother. He got negative on my mother. And that's when I decided to shut the conversation down. Mike didn't like him from that moment on. He didn't want to hear nothing. Didn't want to know nothing. Mike hates this guy, and he's like, I don't want to know anymore. I spent my entire life wanting to know the truth. I was like, but actually not really. Well. Because once someone tells him the truth about his mother, he ends the conversation. So he doesn't really actually want the truth. But I think that might be it. You know what I mean? I think that like, it's, I think it's hard to put ourselves in the mindset of like, do I really want to deal with this? Do I really want to know? Maybe deep down Mike knows his mother actually is a piece of shit and doesn't want to be confronted with that. Yeah, maybe. You know? But like to say I've spent my whole life searching for the truth, like no. Yeah. Because now that someone. Is here. The truth is in front of you. Or like questions are coming up and it's like, well, once you say anything negative about my mother, I am ending the conversation and I hate you. But also maybe my dad is buried underneath the fucking house. Like, come, you guys. I know. And that's the other thing, too, where it's like nobody takes that real seriously at first. And I'm like, I'm not sure I'd go home after that. Because it sounds insane. 3 a.m. is when you say the veil is then? I'd be like, okay. I know. Like, sure. Like, who are you again? Right. Also, I hope this blood gas exchange or whatever went okay. Because wouldn't you be like, I wouldn't know what to do. You just see my... Like, what? Turning up the blood gas. I hope this, like, really emotionally charged conversation happened after the procedure. That only, like, three people can do. There is a real conflict of interest being presented here, I feel like. God. So now Jean, the sister, takes over the storytelling. You hate her. I resent it. The look on your face. Like, I know. And I know she's also complicated. I know everyone here is complicated. I understand that. I know that these kids were abused in many different ways. They had a narcissistic, controlling mother. I know that it sucks. I'm not saying any of this is easy. It's really easy for me to talk about it here. No, I know. Safe in these four walls. I get it. Also, the culture of the family. It's like, Mike is like, they're all really close. And it's like, if Mike finds out, then everyone, he's going to tell, do they want to know? Like, I think that this is a, this story is wild. I know. It's a lot. And I know there's a lot to it. I'm not trying to be like a heartless asshole about it. But please try to remember, fam, that we are responding to the documentary about it. So we are being given all the information at once. So that's what we're reacting to. Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't. You know, but Jean says, like, she left the house at 17 years old. She goes, I had to get away from it. And I'm like, get away from what? Hold tight. She says my sister left even earlier than me. We will get there. Yeah. Jean goes to a psychic. I consider a median my telephone call to my mom. I wanted to know if he was able to give us anything more that we didn't know. Some new fact or some new evidence. She calls it a median, but it's a medium. I was going to let it go. I know we have bigger fish to find. But do we? You know what I mean? Sometimes this feels like the mother load of the thing. And she says it every time. She says median like nine times. Like with her whole chest. I know. And it's medium. Jean calls her the median. She goes to the psychic. she wants her family to go with her. All the men in the room hate the idea of going to a psychic. Especially Mike because he's a Christian. But Mike goes anyway. Yeah, but thank you, Mike. Yes, look, I get it. I don't know why I need you to like him, but like, you know what I mean? It's one of those things where Mike is, I feel like if I met Mike at a picnic, I'd be like, oh God, I have to talk to the QAnon guy. And then two minutes in, I'd be like, do I love you? Yeah. You know what I mean? I hear you. I do. You know, like, so they go see, it's 2010, they go see Reverend Angela Heil. Oh, oh, oh. She's still doing her thing. Oh. She's an interfaith minister and does a lot of weddings. Oh, she does. Tons of weddings. So the session is a full hour, and they thought they were going to talk to their mother. Now, this is a very interesting choice of words for someone who supposedly doesn't believe in this. Mike, he says, well, she didn't come through. She was being very stubborn. I thought you didn believe in it Mike Exactly But you like oh she being stubborn How about oh this median is full of shit But I thought it was a very interesting choice of words I was like he believes in this He totally believes in it. He has to say that he doesn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At first, he has to go kicking and screaming a little, but he's super into it. Well, he's also mad because it's been the entire time talking about Jean's daughter or whatever. Right, and at the end. So the lady looks at me and goes, did you like the reading? And I go, no. She goes, why? is I just want to know where my dad is. She goes, oh. When it comes to the M word, you normally don't say anything until you give me the permission to do it. I said, what's the M word? She goes, murder. When it comes to the M word, I don't say anything about it unless you give me permission. Mike goes the M word. She says murder. If you were a median, would you, and you had murder information on a client, Would you just, I would just tell them. I think that's, I don't know. That's a can of worms. I don't envy that part of the responsibility. If you're real and you actually know and you're getting like a holy shit, like you should not, you know? But you got the dead mom screaming in your ear, like tell them where I am. You know what I mean? It's a dad, not mom. Yeah, well, I'm just saying in general, who's your responsibility to, the ghost or the person who's paying you? But some people don't want to hear it. You think they think they do and they don't want to. I don't know. I have no idea what the right move is. Well, Mike was like, so tell me. So she gives them another, Reverend Heil, you say, gives them another hour for free. So they can ask her no less than the 10 million questions they have. I know. And she's like, hey, cool. So your father's buried in the basement. That's where he's been this entire time. Go down there to the left and it's in the back. In the rear, under the target. And Jean doesn't know what this means, but Mike immediately knows what it means. When they were little kids, there was like a shooting range down there. Like 50 years ago, we're talking. Like a shooting range in the basement. How hard would it be to accidentally point your gun up into the kitchen? Well, he said it was like pellet guns. Oh, I got dark. Yeah. I got real dark. It was just like on the wall like 50 years ago. I'm thinking shotguns and five-year-olds. No. And they would shoot pellet guns at it? It was taken out of there like when I was very young. So she knew something that was like 55, 60 years ago that nobody knew about. And that was impressive. He's like, how would she know this? It's really specific. And the directions go down, make a left. It's in the back by the target. He's like, okay. I just, I want to believe this story and that we have no information other than this, but it's like, what did she really say that they interpreted? Did she really say exactly that? Maybe. But like, I was just like over the, to sell the documentary to HBO Max, you got to give this story a little juice. I guess. You know what I mean? But even more when they ask her, like, who killed our dad? She goes, Richard. The super mean stepdad, Richard. Yeah. She has all this information. Now, was any of that Googleable? Who knows? I don't know. You know what I mean? I mean, the target underneath is crazy. Yeah. That Jean didn't. So even if Jean has seen this woman regularly. Right. Jean didn't know to mention it. Or maybe she's lying to us. I don't know. I know. I know. We just have to go with it because it's good. And who's to say they're lying? Maybe it's all true. It just it's a little bit like wouldn't this be everywhere if the psychic like nailed the exact location of the body? Well, it's on a documentary. I guess that's true. We're talking about it. Enter Richie. Rishi is the son of Dorothy and Richard, the mean stepdad, and he's the half-sibling of everyone we've been talking to, and he's here with us. It's important to note that they've kept this information from us until this moment, that Dorothy had a son with that asshole of the man that she married, and it's Rishi. And, you know, Rishi is saying that, like, he was raised with all of the Carol kids, but he's a Darius. He always kind of felt like an outsider. Cut to Mike. We always treated him exactly the same. Well, you know, we get two conflicting views here, which I think is understandable. Yes. And, you know, the Carol kids are very close. I don't think it's that far-fetched that Richie felt like an outsider. Like, that makes sense to me. For sure. For sure. There's four of them, one of him. They also hated his father. And he's like the spawn of fucking evil. I wonder, like, we never hear Richie talking about the abuse from the dad. I wonder if the dad was nicer to him than he was to the other kids. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe it's one of those shitty things where it's like, oh, they weren't like his kids. Yeah. So he wasn't nice to them or whatever. But Mike is like, oh, this Richie, he's very defensive about his father. I'm like, the same way the Carols are defensive about their mother. About their mother? Get real. Well, especially because when you come home from a psychic and you say, hey, the psychic lady said our dad's buried in the basement and your dad killed him. Like, I can understand Richie being slightly defensive. Right. You know? So Gene tells us a story about how this Richard Mean stepdad guy, like, even came into their life. I was, I would say around seven, eight years old. I remember getting up one morning, getting dressed to go to school. and I saw this man sleeping on the couch in the living room. This Richard guy is sleeping on their couch. And like, this is when like the mom and the dad, he's still in the picture and they're married. This is a big reveal because George Carroll knew him. The dad who's missing. So what happens is Richard Daris is sleeping on their couch and he just got out of jail. He was 18 years old. He stole some radio from the federal government. It was a stupid, embarrassing thing. He stole a ham radio. We're going to go right past that. What's a ham radio? I don't have any idea. I feel like that's the kind of thing that you have under the sink for hurricanes. Is that like a war thing? I don't know. It feels like a war thing. It feels very worried. It's something from the federal government. He was an idiot 18-year-old. Like, whatever. Why are you stealing ham radio? That's a weird thing to steal. So he, like, goes to prison for a while, I guess? I could talk about it for an hour. I don't know. I don't even know what it is. If you can make a radio, you can make, like, a clock out of a potato. You can make a radio out of a ham, I'm sure. Yeah. Make a bong out of an apple. It's an actual ham radio. There you go. You sure are. So George Carroll is like, look, I'm doing a full reno. I'm doing a ton of work on my house. If you can help me out, you can crash on my couch while you get back on your feet. So this is a big reveal. They knew each other. The mean stepdad knew the father for years. and he's in the house. He's living in the house, working at the house when my father disappeared. Soon along the line, my mom starts talking to him. He starts talking to her and somehow something blossomed. When George Carroll goes missing, the mom, Dorothy, ends up with Richard and like they get married. Who's living in the house. Exactly. So like, yeah, it was seamless. That was the word they used earlier. Like, no shit. But the timeline is very blurry. Like, was the mom having an affair? Did she dump the father for the mean guy? No one knows the truth, which is the theme of this whole thing. Yeah, that's kind of the enduring mystery, right? It's like, the nuances of Richard and Dorothy's relationship is very important to knowing what happened here, and we'll never know. We'll never know for sure, but we can have opinions about it. That's what they pay us for, girl. Girl, Miracle Maid is back. Is it time for bed yet? It almost is. Let me tell you, though, the worst kind of sleep is when you're uncomfortable. If you're, like, sweaty and or freezing or just like, I can't get comfy. That's the worst. Well, that's the whole thing. Miracle Made has the perfect temperature because they're crafted with NASA-inspired, silver-infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. So if you're a hot sleeper or a cold sleeper, it doesn't matter. These sheets help keep you in the perfect comfort zone all night long. I'm obsessed. That's what used to happen to me. 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Go to trymiracle.com slash TCO to try Miracle Made sheets today. Yeah, you'll save over 40%. And when you use the promo code TCO, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three-piece towel set. They make an amazing gift. And with a 30-day money-back guarantee, there's no risk. Yeah, so that's trymiracle.com slash TCO. Code TCO at checkout. Thanks, Miracle Made, for sponsoring this episode. And for like my good night's sleep. I know. For regulating my temp. See you soon, Sheetz. See you very soon, Sheetz. So Mike Carroll decides to start digging literally in the basement to the left in the back under the target. No, this is not as easy as it sounds. No. You know what I mean? Like he's an older guy. It's a concrete floor. He's got to figure that out. Yeah, he digs for a year and a half. He goes, no one else helped. No one even offered to help. Yeah. And after all that time, he doesn't find anything. He almost destroys the house. and for what? Nothing. He's so disappointed. He gets in there and the family is coming over and they're like, girl, you're destroying the foundation of your house. The house is going to come crashing down on you. Yeah. And so after all of that, all this destruction and the emotional toll and all that stuff, this takes a very big toll on Mike that nothing was found because he's already in a bad place. Yeah. He's letting the house go more and more into disrepair. His son's left for college. He's sad. He's lonely. He's not working through his feelings. But I'm also just like, Mike, it's a big basement girl. Maybe the psychic was off by a foot or two. Maybe she thought the target it was somewhere else. You know what I mean? Like, instead of— We don't have to go right to despondency. No, but, like, now he's, like, hoarding old coffee cans and scrolling QAnon. Like, this is a recipe for disaster. Well, and it's just, like, it's more to what you've been saying about— I think him going into the basement and digging was hope. Yeah, of course. And when the hope was dashed, he had to confront the fact that he actually really does fucking care. And, like— You know? And then it's like, well, now he says— He told me that he will never leave that house unless he found if his dad was in that basement. I think down deep inside, I had a mission. And I wasn't going to leave here until I tried. Never going to leave the house. Like, unless and until he finds his father. Now he's really in the house. Who does it sound like? It sounds like your mother. Because, I don't know, you know, depending on what she knew. Right. But that's what I'm saying. It's like, especially now, it's like being, like, maybe he's going to bed every night thinking he actually is close to his dad. He doesn't know, but, like, maybe he is. Maybe. You know? So his sons are like, we got to step in and help him here. I love these kids. And so they get organized. They Google penetrating radar companies. The entire family is now involved. That's all it took. So they have to clear out the basement first. Everyone's down there cleaning. They get that radar thing. What? Now, here's the thing. I've always imagined that like dental technicians love their jobs because they get the water picking and they get to clean all the gunk out of your teeth. Okay. You know what I mean? Sure. Very satisfying job. I was watching this family because it's all, we see all the home video of this. Yes, tons. We see every second of them clearing out this. How satisfying that must have been. You know? Finally being like, yeah, dad, I'm going to take this. Oh, it's like going to coffee can that's 15 years old. It's like going into Daisy's room every day after she goes to school. What are the five things we can get rid of that she'll never notice that she won't let us get rid of when she's home? Well, this radar thing finds a, quote, disturbance in the ground. And that's where they start to dig. And in the middle of this, Mike has a stroke. I mean, it's one thing after another with this guy. Just keep on coming. So, like, he can't do it anymore. He thinks it's going to be over. His sons decide they're going to do it for him. These sons are awesome. They love their dad. They really want to help him. They really want to, like, get him out of this despair that he has been in seemingly for decades. Now, I want to just say one thing right here because somebody needs to get his propers. Mike Jr. says he let his brother Chris do most of the digging. Mike Jr. was going to be the documentarian. So I don't want to give the sons too much credit because it was really Chris who did, like, the heavy lifting. And this is where I was. So they say, like. I just went down there with a hammer and I found like a little like chisel type thing. And I just started chipping it away. Before you know it, they were digging like twice a week, three times a week till 10 o'clock at night. And I'm like, wow. They would dig like two or three times a week for 10 hours at a time, like using regular shovels, nothing professional. And it's crazy because at first when they say, oh, we're going to dig, my initial idiot thought was like, well, you just dig until it's done. Right. Like, it's one single occasion, even if it takes forever. But, like, I never imagined that this would take months and years. Yeah. Maybe a week or two. Like, I assumed you dig, rest for a few hours, but you just, like, work through it until it's done. But I'm like, no, idiot. People have lives. This is a major undertaking. It's how you and I would do it, though. There would be, like, a weekend and we'd be in the basement. But, like, it's also a big hole. They're digging, like, a six-by-six-foot square. In cement in the basement. I was like, oh, you're a fucking idiot. Like, that's not how this works at all. Can you be calm? Can you settle down on my friend, Jillian? I have to stop. Mike, like, gets—he doesn't like when he hears me say it. He's a fucking moron. And I'll say it, like, to myself when I think he can't hear me. And he's like, can you— You're Heather Chandler spitting water at herself in the mirror. I'm, like, so mean. I have to stop. Only on myself. So, anyway, after months and months and months, they dig eight feet into the ground. Yeah. And there's, like, a wrench, some scrap metal. I don't like it. I find it all very creepy and spooky. Like, why is that wrench down there? You know what I mean? Why is that like water handle down there? I don't like it. I guess like, I don't know. I think people on construction sites are like, that's going to get built over anyway. Yeah, just leave it. We don't need that wrench. Yes, exactly. Until, however. But in the process of digging, there was a cinder block wall that got exposed right on the edge of the chalked out area of the radar. My son came up and said, there's a wall on the ground. I'm like, what's a wall doing under the ground? I said, you need to go break that wall. They find a cinder block wall, eight feet underground. Like there's a wall underground under eight feet. And behind the wall is like an open cavity. Like this is a major, there's no reason a wall should be that far underground of the base of this house. Right. So it's October 30th. One of his sons is there digging alone. And he finds this fabric that is like completely decomposed. Like it's disintegrating when he's touching it. Can I tell you what my note here is? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. It's the day before Halloween. Day before. Okay. It's probably 3 a.m. Yeah, literally. The shovel, quote, hits something hard. No. And he calls his dad, Mike, downstairs, because his dad, like, knows medical shit. Yeah. Smart guy. It's a human pelvis. Yeah. They find a human pelvis under the ground behind this wall. They also, without any warning, show it to us. They do. And it's a lot. I believed you. Yeah, I totally believed you. By the way, the dad at first didn't believe it, told Chris to get down there and dig with his hands. This is your son who's selflessly been digging this hole for you in your basement for months now. Right. He hits something hard where we think there's a body and you're like, no, go prove it to me. Dig it out with your hands. What? And then once it's proven, Mike feels very validated. And we haven't talked about this yet, but this is like for the third or fourth time. I know. Very smugly. It's like, I win. I always do. I always do. That explains a lot, this obsession with, quote, winning. And at one point he does a Trump impression. winning. Like, it's bad. That's disgusting. So, everyone is shocked. Everyone's hysterical. But nobody calls the cops. No one can believe it. The questions keep coming. But they want to wait until the next day. They want everyone to, like, get their asses there. The problem with that... We report the body. They don't respond. We report the body. Nobody responds. What's going on? Why? The day we reported it was Halloween 2018. October 31st. They find a skeleton in the basement. Yeah, right. There's no way we're going to waste our time. We're getting prank calls all over the place for bodies. So they didn't show up. So they have to call them multiple times to be like, no, but actually we found a body in the basement. And then these, quote, Keystone cops get there and they're not taking this seriously at all. I'm like, what is this, a missing sex worker? What is this, a woman of color? What is this, an abused woman? I know, I know. I want to just go back one second and say one thing. When Richie, who is the only one who's not the son of that dad, he's Richard's son. when he finds out that the body was found, he's on a work trip in Chicago. He cannot get home to his family fast enough. I mean, of course. Which I think is really, even after he knows that they think that if their dad is dead, that his dad killed their dad. I mean, some things just sort of. He still could not get home to his family fast. And that meant something to me. That's also the right answer. Of course. It's the only option. Yeah, yeah. If you're not an asshole. Yes. So once the cops see the basement, they're like, oh shit. They call everybody forensics and archeologists. Now tons of people are showing up at the house, including trick-or-treaters, and we get a shot of, like, Mario and Luigi and T-Rex. I know, I know. Surrounded by police cars, because, like, the day is still happening for these kids outside. I know you don't want to hear it, but this could be a plot line of Modern Family. Like, they always do amazing Halloween episodes. That makes sense. It's a very sitcom. Finding a body in a basement on Halloween and the cops don't believe you. Once again, I'm not making light of this, but, like, it is ridiculous. I think everyone here is like, this is insane. It's insane. So the cops don't know what to think. They're like, well, they don't know how long the body was there. Everyone else knows this is a 60-year-old body. Yes. But the cops are being shitty to Mike because it's his house. Yes. And at one point, the way he says this is so funny and so Long Island. He was like, I wasn't allowed downstairs. I'm like, wait a minute. I didn't kill him. I was one and a half years old. I didn't do it. I was one and a half years old. I didn't do this. Like, he says to the cops, like, I know this is my house. I know. I know there's a body in my basement that I just dug up. And I know that it's Halloween. But I didn't. He goes, I was one and a half years old. I didn't do this. really, the circumstance really is ridiculous. And you got to... It's really, really crazy. So, of course, this is all over the news. Press is everywhere. Rumors are flying. Yeah, and the other thing about this, too, is that the family is like, we are not going to talk to the press about this except to say that we definitely think we know who did it, but we're not going to tell you who. But it was definitely a marital dispute between my mom and somebody, but we have no names. We got no names for you over here. My brother did get on a plane and fly home from Chicago. He's a good guy. Oh, my God. So the cause of death is ruled as blunt force trauma to the head. And after they get this information, the case kind of ends. I thought that that was a pretty, even having seen this once before, I forgot that. And I was like, oh. There's that broken system we know. I know. Because the cops are like, this case is so old, like it's not worth pursuing. But I mean, it's also like, this case has been like that from the beginning. Nobody ever filed a police report. Nobody ever looked for this guy. Now we found him. Nobody wants to, nobody wants to investigate at all. And even though, yeah, even though this body was buried in the basement incredibly deliberately, eight feet underground behind a wall that was dug down there. Give me a break. And the cops are like, I'm too old. Now that I'm thinking about it, cops, do we want to make sure there aren't other bodies down there? Is it connected to another crime? Maybe like, no, doesn't matter. It's wild. And so now we get all these theories because we will never, ever know what actually happened. Anyone who has answers is dead. But I feel like we'll get close. And the people alive don't really want the truth, no matter how much they say they do, because so many people involved are trash and no one is saying that they're trash, really. Like, no one's really admitting that. Yeah, because Richie is saying, like, over and over and over again, my siblings are saying, your father did this. Poor Richie thinks this is a tragic accident. Richie. Richie literally said, this could have been an accident. Like, did he trip in the hole, hit his head on the cement, and now he's, you know, I'm just, there's other problems. possibilities. But when I talk to my siblings we have to look at all the different stories I don know He could have tripped on something and fell and hit his head and fell into the gate Because we learned one of the important things to note here is that there was a well where the body was found So what happened was, remember, the house was an active construction zone. And so there was a water well down there. So basically they put the body in the well and then walled off the well. That's why that cavity existed that shouldn't have been there. Yeah, sure. And that's why the family that's like, the house was a construction zone. It would have been easy to bury a body. They're right about that, you know? Right. Like crazy, inexplicable accidents do happen. Yeah, but let's go through some details and basically say why that's not. Yeah, yeah. You know how I don't really care for evidence. George Carroll, our victim, right? Or the missing dad. Yeah. Dorothy, the mother, told everyone that he had, quote, heavy hands. And she said that after he came back from the war, he was violently abusive. So one of the theories is that Richard, the mean stepdad, killed George Carroll because he was defending Dorothy. He walked in on violence. He stepped in. One thing led to another. George Carroll was killed. And Richard, the mean stepdad, is a hero. Now, this makes no sense for a million reasons. It's like we are going to, like, the rest of this documentary is going to be about what an abusive piece of shit this man was in all of the ways to children. Yeah. You're going to tell me you act, not you, you, you, Richie, or you, anybody who thinks this is going to tell me this man, This act of altruism came in and had to save this woman that he loved, kill this man, hide the body because no one will ever believe it. And then what like but then went on to be this abusive. No, this man is a monster. No. And like, regardless, Dorothy, the mom, 100 percent knew he didn't leave. Yes. Like she didn't file any reports. Well, here's the thing, though. I mostly agree with you. But just to play the devil's advocate here, I do think that there is a situation in which Richard killed him. Never told her on purpose. she probably thought that he was dead and that Richard did something, but didn't have confirmation with her own eyes. But she still kept the kids away from their grandparents and there was a major rift with George's family. Yeah. And there was all this shit like, and the wallet was left behind, the car was left behind. And I'm going to put some of this on George's family. Like, why didn't you guys raise hell? If you guys thought that he was down there, why didn't you fucking raise hell about it? I don't know. You know? I mean, we don't hear any of that. I don't know. But I do think it is possible that there is a world in which Dorothy didn't know exactly what happened. Okay. I'm just saying. I think it's a small, fine. Same. The same percentage that he like tripped and fell into the well. Right, we can't say 100% anything because we'll never know, but fine. I want to talk about Pat the sister. Yes. Pat the sister is the only one who's not here with us. And earlier Mike said, she's a little complicated, but that's a different story, which is a total mischaracterization of what the truth is. So Mike's son does his own investigating. He wants to talk to Pat and he says to us, Pat decided she wanted to tell her story and she wanted to tell it to me. My Aunt Pat confided in me about a lot of the abuse that she got from Richard, how he molested and raped her and was able to get away with it. Nobody would listen to her. Even her mom refused to acknowledge it. Pat ran away from the house at 15 years old because Richard Durris, the mean stepfather, was sexually assaulting and raping her on a regular basis. And we know this because she told this to Mike's son, Chris. And after we hear that, then we get the sibling saying, oh, she's complicated. She's a black sheep. She made decisions we never would have made. She followed her own path. No, no, no. And not just that. Jean straight up doesn't believe it. So like Pat was being sexually abused. Their mother that they can't hear a bad word about did not protect her. Pat told their mother and her mother ignored her. And then Jean, this is insane. Jean says, I never believed in my sister's story. This whole documentary, it is many things. It is a study in how, in trauma. Yeah. And how trauma combined with narcissistic abuse completely rewires your brain. Yeah. Because Jean doesn't believe that her sister was abused because Jean herself was abused by Richard the Stepfather. Yes. And Jean today says, well, Pat knew it was happening to me, so she lied about it to get out. Jean. Now, and that's wild that, like, Mike will eventually—Mike 100% believes Pat's story, by the way. Today he does. As does Steve and as does Richie. But Jean 100% does not. And Mike will say later, what kind of 15-year-old wants to run off and live on their own? Well— You know what I mean? Again, their mother was an asshole because this is—as Jean is like, well, I don't believe her. I was abused. She wasn't. Yeah. This is intercut with Steve, the brother, saying that their mother was telling all the siblings not to believe Pat. Steve says, A lot of what my mother said to me about her made me believe that she wasn't believable. Pat, you know, was a bit, I think she stretched the truth about a lot of things. A lot of what my mother told me about her made me believe that she wasn't believable. And I think Pat stretched the truth about a lot of things. That is fucking evil. Now, Richard the husband was manipulating the mother also to tell her she's lying, she's a troubled kid, she's coming on to me. I don't like I'm just trying to say that like Mike is going to say at some point that mother Dorothy was also abused just like we were. I don't know the dynamics of that. I don't know. I don't know how a mother could not believe their own child when they're being told that these things are happening to them. Both of them. From where I'm sitting, this man was raping both of your daughters. You ignored it. You let it happen. And then you turned everyone against the one who spoke up about it. Yes. Like you're evil. Yes. And so on top of that, he was abusive in other ways to everyone in the house because Mike was like, that was the best day of my life when he left. Mike tells a story about how he would beat them with a switch or like a belt, but that we, quote, had to be fully naked while he was doing it. As young as five years old. We don't go any deeper into that story, but that is also crazy. This guy was abusive from top to bottom. But like, but like sadistically abusive, abusive, you know. For the mother to hear from a 15-year-old girl, I'm being raped by that evil, violent man. And the mom not only doesn't believe her, but tries to turn her other siblings and successfully turns her siblings against her is so fucking vile. It makes me sick. Yeah. But Mike Carroll says today, I believe both of my sisters 110% and I will not budge on that. That is the only answer. Yes. And so before Dorothy died, the mother, she proved how awful she was. I don't know what my mother knew, but when my mother was dying of cancer, she actually approached me before she died. And she asked me, was I in love with him? My mother actually asked me that if I was in love with him. Were you in love with him? But is there not a conversation to be had about like the mother being abused and brainwashed as well? Sure, but like, this wasn't, like, are you jealous of your, like, were you in love with him? Feels like, no, no, no, this wasn't an affair, Dorothy. But I think two things can be true. I think the mother not believing her daughter is awful and evil. I totally agree with that. But I also think that there is a world in which the mother can have been manipulated and abused to believe the story that he was telling as well. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and I, absolutely, there's always room for that. I hear that. And the cycle of abuse, and I totally get that. Because this was the moment that made me think that the mother did believe that. That whatever story Richard had told her, he had convinced her to believe. That Gene was in love with him. Gene was coming on to him. He didn't want anything to do. Again, I have no idea. But for the mother to ask that question on the deathbed feels to me like she believed the manipulation that he had drilled into her. First of all, to me, that all hinges on how much she knew about the murder, which is something we'll never have the answer to. Yeah. But I heard that as like, what a fucking narcissist to be like. It's a horrible, horrible question, of course. Like, it wasn't an affair. It was abuse regularly that you not just didn't believe, not just ignored, but actively turned other safe spaces in Pat's life against her. There's no disagreement coming from me on that. I couldn't agree more. I just, like, I'm just trying to put myself in the position of a woman in the 1960s who's being told by her husband this. And like if she disagrees with him or doesn't believe him, the entire life falls apart. She loses all of her kids. You know what I mean? I'm just, it's not even like I'm trying to have grace for her. But it was this moment when she asked Jean that question that I was like, oh my God, you believe whatever he told you. Yeah. It is equally true that when you create a completely unsafe space for your daughter who is telling you about the abuse and she runs away at 15, that is evil. I couldn't agree more. But I just don't think it's as black and white as like it's just an evil woman who decided to like be evil to her daughter. I think there's more to it than that. Yeah, I'm sure this has to do with the cycle of abuse a little bit. But like we always say, at what point is it your responsibility to protect your fucking kids? Yeah, I'm not arguing that at all. I agree. But I think the reason that we're here is because she never knew what to do. I think once the husband was dead, this man had complete control over her. Because if she did know and she did anything that he didn't like, you know, he's going to go and say that she killed her husband or she was at least an accessory to it. Then all the kids are lost. All the kids go into foster care. Their dad is already gone. I think that she does a lot of really evil things here. But I also do think that, like, once George is dead and if she knew anything about it, Richard had complete control over everything that she did. Yeah, I guess so. I guess. So Chris is Mike's son who's doing the research. Yeah. And he found that this evil stepfather, Richard, had a pattern of abuse. He went to a new family. He did the same thing there. He was sexually harassing the daughter. So it shows what kind of person he is and that he repeatedly showed this behavior. My aunt told my father that Darius was exposing himself at the house. He was exposing himself to the girls. Richard was exposing himself to one of his cousins, to one of Steve's cousins. And that the mother of that cousin called Dorothy and George to say like, hey, this guy that lives with you, this guy that's working on your house, he was exposing himself to my kids today. Like, this is fucked up. And Steve is wondering, like, was that the night that my dad confronted Richard about this and Richard killed him? Right. And then it kind of makes you think, was the violence from George Carroll even real? Or was it another lie? Like, of course, it's extremely likely that he was a violent guy. But we will never know for sure. Because the only, the kids don't say, I remember my dad being violent. They just say, our mother said. Yeah. And she only told them after he was gone as a reason to not miss him and not talk about him and not think about him and not ask too many questions. Yeah. So there is a question, was this even real? And I would think that of all the theories, it feels the most likely that maybe George Carroll goes, I'm letting this fucking sexual predator on my couch. Like, what is going on? I have daughters here. Like, what is happening? And if it was blunt force trauma, like, I guess he would have come up behind him and hit him over the head with something. And based on what I'm hearing, the abuse started after he's dead. Right. Yes. So maybe this Richard asshole was only taking advantage and abusing people outside of this house, then kills George Carroll, and now it's a fucking free-for-all, and the mother's letting him do it. Or it could have been anything. It could have been that it was a completely different day, and maybe George found out that Richard was abusing his kids and confronted him about it. I mean, this Richard guy is pure evil. Yeah. Like, yeah. I'm just like, I'm just having a hard time with the mom. I really am. Because like, I just, there's so much of me that's screaming. She knew everything. Yeah. And we also get these home videos from Richie, the half brother's wedding in the nineties. And like Richard, the evil stepdad and Dorothy, the mom, are having a grand old time dancing and laughing. They're long divorced by this point. Right. Yeah. And like she could, they're long divorced. Yes. So like she did get out of it somehow. Yeah. And so now here she is in the 90s dancing and laughing with the man who at the very least was raping her daughters on a regular basis. Yeah. Acting like everything's fine. She could have, she could have just said, put me at a different table. I'll be civil. It's your wedding. Yeah. But I don't, but the way they're laughing and dancing on that dance floor. Yeah. I mean, we don't know anything. It could very well be that there was the final straw where she said, you have to get out of my house or I'm going to go to the cops and tell them that we murdered my house. Anything to get you away from my kids. And maybe he said back to her, you know what? I'll get out of the house. We'll keep this secret. I'll leave you alone. We'll never know. We will never know. But Richie, the son, says, because we see the video of them dancing and he's like. I get emotional because they're just talking about me. I grew up. We raised a good kid. You know, good life, good family. or were they talking about, hey, we potentially got away with murder at this point? Or are they looking at each other and smirking and saying, like, we just got away with murder? Got away with murder. It could be either. We'll never know. Also, cute dog alert. Mike has two dogs. That's all. Oh. So we're back with Jean. Yeah. Who has her father in a wonton soup container. I was glad she at least acknowledged it because the first time that I watched it, I was like, girl, is that, is your dad in a wonton takeout container? Which, look. Yeah. If it works, it works. No judgment here. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do. There are some people who fully, fully believe that the whole funeral business is a total scam. Oh, really? Just like the fact that you have to pay so much money for something. You know what I mean? Cats are expensive. Super expensive. And so I think there are some people who. Leave me in the woods and let me rot. Who will actively be like, fuck the $10,000 earn. Yeah. Put me in a wonton soup container. If ever there was a person, Gene's the one. I think there are definitely people in the world who are pro-wonton soup container. Yeah, because the ashes come in a bag. You know what I mean? You got to put them in something. You know, like, they don't come in that fancy urn. It just, it fits. Yeah. And it has that top that's hard to get off. It's true. If it's working, it's working. Well, and then Steve, this son. Well, there wasn't much that I ever had that my father actually owned or gave to me. I guess that the shoes just kind of give me some connection. This is all I have. He's decided the memento he's going to keep of his dad are the boots that the dad had been buried under the house in for 65 years. Right. And we see them, and they are kind of an amazing artifact. They are, and I think we're talking to a lot of deeply hurt people. Well, who never had a single thing that their dad ever gave them, ever. They never had anything that belonged to him. Who are taking what they can get. And they're also sort of now reckoning with the fact of like everything we've been told for decades is probably not true. Uh-huh. And so they could have been missing him and mourning him in a way. Oh, yeah. And they could have had belongings. But then like why? And then it's like, well, why didn't we? And why did she want to live in the house? And why weren't we allowed to? Also, just like the knowing that he was there all the time. He was right there. It ends with footage of one of the skit nights. Yes, this is so ghoulish. And Dorothy, happy as a clam, by the way. Like, thrilled, not, like, sad about any abuse or sad. I'm not saying that that's not bad. Her dead husband is buried 10 feet from where she's standing. She's dancing on him. Yeah. She's dancing on him. Yeah. So she's lip syncing to that song So Alive by Love and Rockets. Yeah. And they also, I don't know if this was a documentary thing, but they give her, like, the full MTV treatment in the corner. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. With, like, the old MTV font, like, actually. So, but she's dressed as a skeleton. and her face is painted white as a skeleton. And I find it so unsettling. Yeah. And I feel like it's just sort of a button of like, I, to me, and maybe we can ask the filmmaker this, it feels like that's sort of a statement on what they believe or what they think about her. Yeah, sure. Because it's a really damning way. To end. To end this with all these questions of like, what's real, what's not. And like literally dancing on a grave. As a skeleton to a song called So Alive. Yeah. And I found it, like, really eerie. It is! It's so eerie. I don't like it at all. Oh, my God, girl. We did The Secrets We Bury. The Secrets We Bury. I really like it when you and I get to, like, really, in real time, like, dissect how we feel about a thing. Yeah. I did have a lot of feelings with this. And I just, it's probably like my issue that I sort of get. What do you mean? No, I do sort of get blinded when there's like sexual assault happening. Like I can acknowledge that that puts blinders on me in some ways. Like that's a thing that I'll own. You know what? It's really cool of you to say that. I didn't think of it like that. I think that your like righteous indignation is totally warranted. And that could be wrong of me and something I have to work on. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know, but I'm in my feelings about it. The thing is, like, if we were a married couple, I would say we just made big progress because I didn't know that really about you. But now that I understand that, when we have the conversations like that, I will totally get it. No. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like I guess I'm sort of realizing it, too, where I'm like, I'm just not like. Yeah. I will not budge on this. Good. Don't fucking budge. Not for me. Fam, we love you so much. We'll just leave you on that note. What are we doing next? Oh, God. Murder in Monaco on Netflix. What is that? I personally think this documentary is a mess. Like everything about it, the story. I think it's a mess, but it's huge on Netflix right now. It's about the murder of, like, one of the most richest people on the planet in Monaco. And, like, who did it and who didn't? Was it his wife and the Russians and the nurse and the whole thing? It's, like, crazy. Okay, great. Murder in Monaco coming up next week, fam. On Netflix. All right, we love you. We love you. Go have a drink, please. Oh, my God. Whatever that may be, stay hydrated, everybody. That's not what I meant, but do it if you want. All right, bye. Bye. There is a murder mystery to report to you tonight. The victim, an elusive billionaire banker. It raises a whole lot of questions like who wanted him dead and why. Edmund Safra. Edmund Safra. Edmund Safra. Is unfolding at the favorite playground of the rich and famous Monaco. Monaco. Oh, God. Monaco is less than a square mile. It's a sunny place for shady people. It's one of the safest countries. With surveillance in almost every corner of the principality, how could one of the richest men in the world be killed in one of the securest countries in the world? Who had any benefits for that? Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your 1 euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. 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