Katrina Simmons & Kristi Kastler on Grief, Addiction & Fighting The Fentanyl Epidemic

Do it scared, do it loud, recover out loud. Yes. Because in today's time, it's either you recover or you die. Share your stories and that you heal, heal someone else. I mean, let's pass it on. If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call 1-CALL-PLACEMENT. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. One-call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment, Wellness & Spa, and One Method Treatment Centers. Before we start, I just want to say this. What you're about to hear is real, and it's happening every single day. Please don't assume it can't happen to you or your family. Today, one pill, even one time, can be deadly if it's not prescribed to you. Do not take it. Have Narcan on hand and make sure you know how to use it. It can save a life in minutes. And most importantly, talk to your kids, your friends, your loved ones. The drug supply has changed. Awareness and conversation can save lives. We're out of time. Today on We're Out of Time, I'm joined by Katrina Simmons and Kristi Kastler. There are two mothers who each lost their sons, Dylan and Devin, to female poisoning. After years of trying to help their children through addiction, they experienced firsthand how dangerous today's drug supply has become and how quickly things can turn fatal. They've now turned that loss into a podcast, DK805, where they're working to raise awareness and help other families avoid the same tragedy. This is a difficult but important conversation about addiction, loss, and what people need to understand right now. Kristina and Kristi, thank you both for being here. Thank you, Richard, for having us. Yeah, we do have that happen often. Katrina and Kristi, we usually announce ourselves as the opposite name. We'll say it's Kristi and Katrina. But thank you for having us. It's been a, we were trying to connect for a while. Well, I can tell you the honest answer for that right now, why I've been jerking you guys around. Oh, you haven't been. No, we've been. Oh, actually, I was. No, no, no, no, I was. Okay. Let me tell you why I was. Because you guys have more courage than I do. See, I started this thing because it's really why I came back to work and why I started this podcast. I've never seen a podcast. I've never listened to a podcast. Okay. But my idea was I'm going to scream this thing from the mountaintops like you guys are doing all the time. And I started out that way. And it just took a toll on me. It does. And I'd cry like a little baby. Okay. I was like a little bitch every time we had to talk about it. Okay. And because it's the single most unnatural thing that a parent can do, it's not supposed to be that way. It's not supposed to be where we bury our children. That's not the way this is supposed to work. It's unnatural. And the reason I jerked you guys around was because every time I do this, I take your grief and I put it onto me like it's happening to me. Same. I know. That's why I said I don't do this all the time. Okay. And, um, and you have more courage than I do. So thank you guys for doing this. The first thing I want you to do is tell me about your boys. Sorry. I know. It's the worst. We've come so far. We've come so far. We've interviewed other moms. We've come so far. Um, I think maybe just how you, uh, acknowledge that it's so hard. It's so hard. Um, we've been through, um, um, ridicule. We've listened to, we put our, our son's stories out there to save others and to raise awareness for the, the fentanyl crisis that is. And then I started going into the, um, the beginning with weed, weed psychosies, which I experienced with my son Dylan, um, and trying to save him from that and the very early stages that I was, uh, ridiculed for. I just sort of wasn't, uh, there wasn't any ridicule. There wasn't any help at that time. But, um, when we, when I met, when I shared the story, um, every 11 minutes I shared his story, uh, people that have their, um, that there's a real protective bubble over their own, um, their own, uh, love for the, the, for cannabis, for weed, for there. It was, um, my son's story somehow triggered their defensiveness of that I was saying it's not good for, I had to reframe it. I had to do a little video the next day. I had people saying, I mean, it was my son's loss. It was baby pictures of him. It was how I, it was his toxicology report. And I had shared that all he had alcohol, uh, uh, high strains of weed, which are the high strains, nine and 10, uh, you know, the, the, um, synthetic layers. And then there was trace levels, not even a lethal dose of fentanyl in his system. And when I shared that people, uh, this was way back, this was when we first started. This was well, Katrina, I feel like she was really skilled because people did not want to believe that marijuana is late. Right. So there was, and there was a protection I felt like, you know, so, or, or just even just the, um, I had to deal with that. Like I put a protective labor. I had to really shut down because the remarks were your son must have been, um, an idiot. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on a second. Okay. You're always going to be ridiculed by drug addicts because they're going to defend their right to drink and use. Okay. But they're idiots. They don't know any better. Okay. And I sincerely, I see that it bothered you and I'm sorry. Just think about who these people are for a minute. Okay. We have a mother that lost their child and you have a bunch of. Idiots. Okay. That are going to sit there and pile on you. Listen, just, just rest with the knowledge. Yeah. That these people are pieces of shit and they are going to amount to nothing. Okay. What it did. That's, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's bad. That's bad, but it's also a fact. Yeah. Okay. These people are garbage. Anybody who would attack a parent after losing their child is a piece of shit. That's it. So I want to move on from that because that's the mic drop moment. Yeah. Christine, tell me about your son. Devon. Devon was a larger than life little boy. He was full. He was the typical child who was ADD, couldn't sit in the chair, dreams bigger than anything. He wanted to be, he would always say when he grows up, he wants to be as a little, is he starting crying? He'll start crying. When he was a little boy, he used to always say when he grew up, he wanted to be a vegetarian. What that meant is he wanted to be a veterinarian. So he would always say he wanted to be a vegetarian. And then as he got older, he was the one that was tapping the desk, jumping out of a seat. And like any mom, I'm trying to find what is going to work for my child to get him through the school systems. He was bullied as a little boy because he was a big boy, meaning tall. He was always taller than his average peer. So he was asked to be in sports and he wasn't a sports kid. He was sensitive. He was a musician. He loved the animals. One of the earliest stories I remember of Devon that I told at his celebration of life is, he came home from school one day and he was really upset. There goes the tears. And I said, what's wrong? Tell me what's going on with you. And he said, mom, the kids are, they pushed me down on the playground and they were making fun of me. And I said, well, what happened? And he said, I was pushing this special needs kit on the swing set. And they said, if I played with that person, that I can't be their friend. And so he always had this wonderful sensitive heart. And then as time went on, his, my sister, when Devon was eight years old, was diagnosed with breast cancer. And so Devon was eight at that time. And we went through, he saw firsthand what cancer can do to somebody. I had a niece and a nephew that were 10 months old and three years old when my sister was diagnosed with cancer. She fought a hard battle for four years and then she passed away. But I ended up being one of the primary caregivers for my sister's kids at that time. So emotionally, I was all over the place. My sister died in 2007. And then in 2008, Devon's dad was diagnosed with a cancer that was, we were told, was a terminal cancer. It's multiple myeloma. So Devon was only 12 years old at that time, 13 years old. He had an older person introduce him to marijuana. And so he was young. He was 13, 14. And you have to remember where I am emotionally. My sister just died. I was told that their dad isn't healthy. Emotionally, I was processing. And so when I found out that Devon was using marijuana, I did a scared straight program. Like I did what the professionals told me to do because I knew I couldn't parent him on my own. I knew it was too much for me. So we sent him to a wilderness camp, which ultimately he enjoyed the wilderness camp, but he also felt abandoned at that age. He was 14, 13 or 14. I'm going back in my brain, but it wasn't the wilderness camp that made him feel abandoned. What made him feel abandoned, we had to work through this and counseling ourselves, is how I went about getting him to the wilderness camp. I was told medically just to do whatever I could to get him. So at this point, Devon's like 14. He's 6'2". I basically told him we were going to Arizona, got him on an airplane, met with the wilderness camp there, and then they took him for a 30-day program. I never gave him the opportunity to tell me he wasn't going. I never sat down with him and said, I can't do this. I basically said I did what the medical professionals told me. Can I tell you something? I need you to leave that with me. You did nothing wrong. No, I tried to protect my child, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it still hurt him. And it doesn't take away from the fact that it still caused him abandonment. Devon and I worked through it, and the only reason why I think it's important to tell this part of the story, because his families go through struggles with their loved ones. I have to take an ownership in where I hurt my child doing the best I knew to do. No, no, I can't hear it. I don't even have an ear for it. But it gives him an opportunity to heal, and it gave me an opportunity to build that bridge. You did the best you could. I did. I don't feel guilty. I don't feel guilty. Is it ideal to be able to sit down with your child? Okay, and get him on board with the decision? Absolutely it is. That's ideal. Okay, but by hook or crook, it's so dangerous. You get that kid help. Yeah, because we're out of time. Yes. As you know. Yes. Right. Okay, let's move on. Let's move on. And then you're moving out from there. I feel like Devon never... How could I say this? Devon was introduced to... He came back home from the wilderness camp, and he was clean for a while, but then his dad had the opiates from his cancer treatment. And so now Devon's 15 and curious and still in pain and suffering. And curious and still in pain and still... We have cancer going on in our home. We have... It was just not the perfect home life given the trauma in the home, or the struggles within the home. It was hard. And so he started taking his dad's pain meds. And I didn't understand it was the opiates, his oxycodone. So as soon as we figured out what was happening, I started locking everything up, just locking everything up, not understanding what withdrawal looked like. So he went to the streets. He did go to the streets. And when he went to the streets, he was 15 years old when somebody injected him with heroin. 15. And so I tell this story, and it makes me cry sometimes. I tell this story that Devon chased sobriety and I chased him. And going through the story, as parents, you do hear all types of things about how what I should be doing with my son. We sent him to wilderness camp. We sent him to boarding school. We sent him to sober levies. He went in and out of rehab. And I'm not being sarcastic when I say, Howard. Okay, I'm not exactly. About 18 times. Go ahead. I get it. I get it. Eight or 18? No, about 18 times. He was sober as much as he was relapsing. How old was he when he was murdered? He was 28 years old. And it is, and that is the right term. That's right. It's the right term. The hard boys were poisoned. They were taken. There was that Devon was going to rehab the next morning, bagpacked, and my son had just left rehab. And they were poisoned. They were murdered. People were taken from us. That happens to us all the time. At Carrera, we try to get people in the door immediately. Okay. We have already had at least two and maybe three circumstances where people made an appointment to come to rehab and not just got in the car and went. Right. Okay. And we're like calling to reach them and finally we get parents and they're like, oh my kid's dead. No. He died. I would call like on the road with him driving. I'm coming wherever we're going and I'm like, I'm screaming. You get my son in now or this is going to be like, when, especially when there was a psychosis happen, which I, I witnessed firsthand, which I now want to raise awareness for the, the weed psychosis, which is that was where it started for my son for Dylan. And it's, I was trying. So I was racing like crying and screaming and they were just like, is he, is he using now? Or I didn't know what he was. I didn't know what a psychosis was. I do now. I do know now. Um, but it's, it's only like now after, but it was like, I was, I could see the train coming and calling on the phone to get him and, you know, get him where you need to go. And it's, it's awful. So the reason the people were, were abusing you online is because the marriage, uh, the marijuana psychosis is rare. Well, it's more and more. It's very, it's not rare now. I get it. Yes. Well, okay. It's, it's. Look, right. It's happening. Yes. Okay. Okay. But it's rare. I don't know what the numbers are, but it's not half and it ain't a third and it's not a quarter. Okay. It's, it's somewhere below 10%. It really is. I don't know where it is, but that's my experience. So what I want to know is how, how Katrina, how did your, how was your child? What did he do to die? Did he ingest a pill? That's unknown. I do not know. I just know. Did you have a toxicology report? Yes. What, what did the toxicology report say? He had 0.014 alcohol. He had Delta nine, Delta 10. He had, um, I can, I have it. I could read it, but then the, um, 11 ng ml of, uh, and, um, and it's so it's two milligrams for a lethal dose of that. And how much, and how much did he have 11 ng, which is a nano milligram? What did they say he died of? He succumbed to his respiratory because, um, all combined the alcohol and he was tired. I can see that he had, he left rehab. He was, it was like, he was out of his time of, I can outrun this. And he had left his father's, his dad had put him in rehab. He left and we had just done that like two weeks prior with me at art. We live in California, his dad's in Arizona. And, um, my Dylan was, he was a skateboarder. He was, um, he was, um, in his mind outrunning. He was at like, can I, can I tell you what it was? What I think it was? Yes. It was the combination, but it was predominantly opioids. Okay. And it could have been heroin or anything. And the reason it was, okay, is because his respiratory system slowed to the point where it stopped. Yes. And that's, and that's what happens. A heroin addict, right? What feels the best for an intravenous heroin user is to get as close to dead as humanly possible without actually dying. That is the sweet spot. That's what feels the best. So lay people don't understand that unless you're on it, unless you've had that physical experience. Right. Okay. I want to, I want to get back to Katrina. When did you first realize something was really wrong with Dylan? And what did that journey look like trying to help him? It really took us by, I mean, it was, um, shocking when it presented. Dylan, um, decided to leave California to go at 20 after breaking up with a girlfriend to Arizona where his dad had moved. So there was the breakup there. So it was, uh, yes, I knew he did smoke weed. We thought that I thought that was the lighter thing, but because he didn't do anything, there was, he was graduating, he was meeting markers. He graduated high school. He went to video, you know, editing, um, film editing school where he was going to pursue, pursue that, but he didn't, but he did complete it. He was, um, the girlfriend really kind of covered that because they had friends and they were happy. There was no, there was no, um, real signs that there was a problem that wasn't, um, until like I said, he went away to Arizona. He came back. His girlfriend had, uh, there was a breakup. She had met someone else. There was that pain, but so he came back to live with us in California. And it was, it was like overnight. The alcohol for him was the fuel and it was, um, he was, it was, it was, uh, so he came back with, um, like, just overnight. It was a, it was a disaster. My baby was like, um, his eyes changed. He was drinking. I found bottles in his room at vodka. He couldn't get his girlfriend back. He was, um, they were under the bed. They were under his, you know, he was isolating, playing, uh, video games and we were trying to get him to get out and get, you know, what did he do? What did he do for a living? Well, in restaurants stuff, just working like, you know, working part time, doing like really easy stuff he could do where he could still continue to drink. He was doing like how, how often what, at what age did he pass? 28. 28. 28. Both of you guys were 28? 28. The story, how, the story, how Katrina and I met is very interesting. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Were the boys friends? No, no, but interesting enough, going back in my brain, I'm sure that Devin and Dylan, both were at the same sober living house at the same time. We have a memory of that, like interaction. There's her maybe giving Dylan a ride. He has a, he was an avid skateboarder. So his whole life was very adventurous. Like he would jump off of roofs and open in pools. So he was like, so nothing other than just he had a very outgoing, gregarious personality, beautiful, larger than life. He could have, you know, been on any cover of any magazine, just beautiful, inside and out, like happy, always laughing, love to make people laugh. And he, he loved skateboarding. I mean, he could have gone pro had he gone that way, but the girlfriend really was a if I say a trauma hit, and then we had a, he lost his grandparents to a double suicide when he was 14. So that was like down there. And there was this stuff that was down there. So when the guys don't have any good news, you guys have nothing but bullshit news. You guys have had a real hard time. We've had a very, very hard time, but the good news is how we survive this is we have to reframe it. And I, I firmly believe that Devon and Dylan, yes, up and having given each other high fives, because they brought the two of us together. So random how we did come together that it's, there's no coincidences in this. And they are, they did struggle and they did get poisoned that this is a time of, had they not, our boys would have been, I mean, this wouldn't have happened. It just, just wouldn't have happened had it not been. And so those boys, those boys want us to support each other. And they're giving us the opportunity through these podcasts, through the sharing, through the community outreach to be here for each other. So I'm not alone. No. Katrina's not alone. And their stories are beautiful. Be probably, you know, alongside of the other, alongside the things we're sharing now that, you know, are like this is our worst nightmare is that they're, they're beautiful boys and they're with us constantly. They send us an incredible signs. They are, you know, just the, they knew we were, they knew we were struggling with just like finding that like you want to, you just, you feel lost and I didn't, you wanted like to hear someone else had had the same age and the DK and all this was just, they, We met each other over the internet. And we lived within two miles from each other. There's no way our son's stories can't just sound just, you know, I just will say, along with all of the struggles of trying to save and rescue your child when they have addiction issues, which they, the boys did, they found something that unlocked that key inside of them that covered and took away that pain for them. And books are written, Matthew, all the stories we know, but with our boys, they also shared with us a huge gift of love and light and they were pure, like they just were, they, they wouldn't, they would, they would give their things to other people. They were these, they were, that's what they want us to do is help other moms survive this. When you get that call, you are, you are, your, your life is over. I want, I went to the ER and I wanted to be hooked up to a machine. I was, that was it. So, so what do you wish more people understood about addiction from a parent's perspective? Don't shame the parents. Don't shame the parents that are trying to help them. It's the only illness that I know. Who shamed you for trying to help your son? Oh gosh, it's the comments that people make. Well, you're damned if you do, you're, if you enable, you're an enabler and now the time of family gives you no, if they leave the house, there's a risk of them at any second, taking something that someone gives them. Wait a minute. You guys, hold on. You guys didn't have a podcast. Until after your children were murdered. Okay. So who, please help me to understand who gave you grief over getting your children help. First and foremost, it's us. It's ourselves. As a mother, we're here. It's our job to protect our children. Thank you. It's us. Thank you. But it is, you do lose social, you do lose your friendships. You do lose people that can't, they can't walk with you in grief and there is a shame around addiction and passing of it. So even during the time of my son's struggle, I kept a lot of that to myself without sharing it, even with my closest friends, because one, I didn't want it to be something he overcame and we fixed and he didn't want this out there and have it be his life told. So he had that, but we keep it to ourselves. We run at a million miles a minute. We go to work while we're doing it and we try to put a smile on our face. While our baby is our child is always our baby. Did you go get therapy with him? I did. I started Allen on. Okay. Did you guys ever go to therapy with your children? Oh, yes. Talk it through. For years. And I'm a little different in that my Dylan did not. He was opposed to therapy. He was, he very much so had the psychosis. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia form, which is that in use, he denied, he walked out of rehabs over and over because his mind told him he did not need to be there or take the medication to stabilize his brain. So we were, it was a dual diagnosis and his mind told him he did not need help. Today, about 75% of the people that come into treatment have a dual diagnosis. Okay. So that's not rare at all. Can you walk us through what happened the day you lost them and how quickly things unfolded? So I threw up in the shower for hour to my brother came from, we live in a small, we lived in my, anyways, he came from where we lived growing up and he lives, racing his family there. He showed up, everything was a blur. And I thought in my mind, I thought, that's it, I'm going to go to hospital now and I will just be on a machine for the rest of my life. It was going to be, that was in my mind. I went to the ER and I just couldn't even process that this, that I would ever go past that day. My life was over. It's surreal. Something comes over you where you are not, you're walking, you are in a, yeah, I just, I still feel sick, nauseous thinking about how that moment felt. Do you guys feel good about doing this podcast? Not always. No, not always. No, thank you for saying that because there's no way you can feel good about this. You have to do it because your heroes, people listen, people watch and you're going to save. Who knows how many parents the grief, but you are. We have, we have, I mean, we've shared with each other. I have shared with Christie since we've gotten to know each other and it's been under a year that we, you know, when we first met it really sort of was just this like organic sharing our story that we felt not, not, you know, not shamed. We felt we were understood and just that, the words, all was, you know, everything was, again, none of that was being talked about. So she's heard had to hear me share my, I am, I am pissed. I am angry that I was actually writing on the, my social media time was spent like, why are the borders open? Why, and I was seeing things. I was seeing like crazy things happen where my son did not want to get in the COVID when COVID hit. He got told to leave a rehab because he wouldn't get vaccinated. These are things that happened that I was, I was like ready to write, let I was, you know, I was, I was becoming that person that was going to go to the White House and write, you know, what's going on. Can I, can I ask you a question? When was the first time you put your son into therapy? He was 13 when they went and it wasn't enough. Okay. I know I understand that. How long did he go for? Not long enough. They went for about six months. Okay. Therapy isn't something you have to do. It's something you get to do. It's the ultimate luxury. There is no shame in going to therapy. It's the way elegant people deal with their stressors. And I want people to know that at the first sign of, of a problem, the very first sign, yes, the, the immediately go to therapy and then you gauge it to see what's going on, to determine whether or not you need to send them to rehab. Now there's a caveat to that. The caveat is what you catch him using. Okay. That's the caveat. If it was marijuana or drinking, you're going straight to the therapist. If it's pills or powders, okay. You go in straight to rehab. That's the rule. Okay. But you guys didn't know this then. You guys did everything you could. You are good mothers. You did the best you could. I'm sorry, honey. It's okay. We don't always do. But as parents, we don't feel like that. But it doesn't matter how you feel. Your grief is, your feelings are valid, but they're not facts. Okay. And I'm, and I'm telling you, you guys did the best you could. You didn't sit there and do nothing. I know how difficult it is. It's 24 hours a day. I deal with these kids all the time. They don't want to hear it. They aren't told, you know, all these things. Okay. And they just don't listen. And if you have a kid like that, you are in, you have to be on it. And you cannot make a mistake because it's that type of child. And that is why you can't like, okay. I started Alan on and in Alan on very early on, it was hearing stories like where the a grandmother was sharing how they had kidnapped their granddaughter, get them across the border to a T want to rehab because she refused to go. And I thought to myself, like it, it's things you never, ever think you'd even ever hear in your life, these things that are that happen. But when, when someone is addicted or they are, they're willful and that's, like you said, it feels like you're being, it's the manipulation. It's all that, but there's this love that is there to save them. There is no right or wrong way. But again, they, if they don't go to rehab, yes, I did. I didn't, I didn't. Right. This is, this is what I was 23 when I said no more. And I said, I will not pay for, you know, unless it's sober living and rehab, he was couch surfing with friends, all that goes on and on. I won't pay for fines. I will never let you not go without, I will never let you go hungry. You'll never have, I mean, I, that we, all those things we did. This is, this is Alan on thinking it was, did you throw him out of the house? Yes. Take away his credit cards, gas card. Yes. Then the DUI started happening and then we wouldn't help with any more. All that was done. Then he's, you know, it's, it goes on and it goes on. And it goes on. You did the right thing. It still ended in the cis way. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's why we're here to advocate for how to take care of yourself during the process. Cause we didn't have people helping. We were like, she was struggling with, she shared as the things we all have in our lives are all different, but we're all the same in one way that life does have to go on, even though your child is struggling. So you have to put on, and this is what she said, obviously to help make sense that she's an airline attendant, put on your oxygen mask first. You have to, if your child walking to therapy, you've got to go get Alan on. You've got to go get away to find that you can, first of all, feel you're not alone in this awful run for, you know, every day you never know what's coming. And it is, it's, it's one day at a time, but you are in a run and it is the most painful journey of, I wouldn't, of anything that I can think of. What are you guys doing right now for your own mental health? Okay. Because you're enduring yourself every time you have this conversation and you can't let it go, which means you're not living, you're existing. I think that there's a difference between existing and thriving. And for me, I have other children. I do have other children. But the morning Devon died, that individual, that Christie died as well. I am not the same person when Devon was alive. No, we're gone. Those moms are gone. That version of that mom is gone. And in that, in that death of Devon, I have to allow myself grief. There will always be a part of me that walks through the rest of this life on earth with pain in my heart. That that's, that's a given. I'm always going to carry a little bit of sadness with me. But my, my other children deserve a mom. They deserve a mom that still honors their life. They're on this side. They are here. And they, it's not my children's responsibility to take care of me emotionally. It's my job. It's their mom to say, I'm still here. I still honor you. What are you doing? I go to Al-Anon and I still share with many people the part for me. My faith is, is carries me and that is what I do share with anyone that wants to. Are you guys in therapy? Am I in therapy? Are you either of you in therapy? No, I do have a therapist. Okay. How often do you go to your therapist? I go to my therapist, not probably enough. Okay. So I'm going to ask you a question. Yeah. I go three times a week. I go three times a week and I own the finest drug and alcohol treatment facility in the world. And Newsweek just called me the king of rehab. I am the most over-therapized person on the planet because I need containment and I want to be the best version of myself. Okay. You want to go to a therapist? Has that therapist lost a child? Hold on a second. Has that therapist been through the life addiction? Then we, then I'll find you a therapist that lost their child. How's that? Well, if that exists, then I would go. Hey guys, I'm not beating you up. I think you two are the salt of the earth. You're the best women I've ever spoken to. And I've done this a little bit now. Okay. My heart breaks for you. But I want to get to the living part because this isn't, you're never going to get past this ever. That's a true statement. That's a true statement. You can move forward. Christy, you're doing the right thing because you're showing up for your other kids. Okay. So that in itself is healing. Okay. But the two of you need to go to therapy. You have to. This is a non-starter. You can't sit here. What you guys are doing right now is a gift to humanity. But it's injuring you every single time you open your mouth. I disagree. I'm sorry. So because each time we, we, first, like as I said, I take everything to the Lord for me. So whoever, whatever you choose for your higher power, whatever that source is for me, I know that this is not a punishment, that this is not something that I'm going to be, that this, this, what, that I'm not the only one. I know that there are children dying around the world. There are people dying in war. This, this is a, this is a weapon of mass destruction for this generation. And if anything, this has created in me an ability to use a voice that was dampened down. So when I do get done with the podcast and I do kind of, I have to take time and go away. I've found a grief retreat space. I go up to the mountains. I'm alone. I go into nature. I go into peace. I prayer, meditate, and I will be, and I am a stepmother. I am a wife. I own my own business. And I keep going because I know that God wants me to. You guys need a therapist and I would suggest, okay, Mondays and Thursdays. And you know what? If we can't find someone who has lost their child, how about we find someone, okay, that fits someone that's had this experience with other clients, someone who, who knows what they're talking about. A good therapist, depending on the therapist, can do grief counseling while moving you forward. But we are moving forward. So I'm not, I'm not moving forward. And I will tell you why I'm not moving forward. Before you do that, I don't want you to forget what you're saying. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. If you're not with a therapist, then you may be moving forward inclementally, but you will get relief. And that's what I want for you. Listen, I love God more than anybody. Okay. More than anybody. Talk to him all day long. Never talks back to me. Still waiting. Okay. But here's the thing. He wants us to have relief. He wants it. Okay. I'm telling you he does. And it's written in his pages. Yeah. Right? I believe that. That's right. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's all right. I did you. I was saying that there is a part of me that I have put on pause. And part of the reason I have paused is because I'm in the middle of a court case. And if I'm completely transparent, there's a part of me that is scared of the pain I feel. So if I keep it in a box, I can go to work. I can put on a happy face. I can be there for my other children. But that Pandora box that can open up scares me. And I know it's limiting, but in my coping mechanism, I think that the heart and the brain, I have to store it between the heart and the brain is that it only lets a certain amount of pain in at a time. So I can continue to be functional. I'm not saying that's right. And I agree that I do need therapy. You're in a court case. You're in a court case and your son was murdered. You need support. I do. I do. Dang, you do. I do. I do. So just because you're in a court case doesn't mean you can't do two hours of therapy a week. That is a true statement. It's going to give you relief. And I know you're scared. I am scared. Because everybody's scared. I am scared. Everybody's scared. It's okay. One of the things I used to always tell Damon, and I need to do it myself, is do it scared. Do it scared. Do it scared. Because you know how you do it scared. You just do it. You run through that wall. You don't think about it. You just do it. I will take referrals. I will take your suggestion. I know I've interrupted you guys a bunch. I know that I've come off harsh. Okay. It's just I look at you guys and I'm trying to give you a little bit of relief. And I see you guys in so much pain and stuck in it. It's not that you're not doing God's work. It's not that you're not doing the right thing. Helping other people. And it's not that you didn't do the right thing with your kids. You did the best you could and you did great. Okay. The results suck in the worst possible way. But you did okay. You did good. Really. Okay. But I really need you to understand because really the only reason I'm on this call today is to give you guys something. Okay. And the something that I want to give you is a new start because we only get one go at this. Okay. We're only we only get one turn at life. We're all here on loan. Okay. And you guys are doing good. But at the end of the day. Okay. Your grief stricken. And I just wanted a little less. Just a little less every week. Just a little less because after a year. Your life is like this. And after 10 it's like that. And it'll never go away ever. But I want you guys to have a life so you can show up for the other relationships in your life and show up for yourself. And I want you to be happy. And here's here's a little leverage for you. Okay. You will be able to help more people if you help yourselves. Right. So for me I have four years still. And we have May 22nd 2022 is when my son passed. That's coming up on so the anniversary dates all dates are hard birthdays. And but this is the harder of them. His transition home date. And as I'm coming up on four years my next journey will be to start a grief retreat. I've already started that process. I have already committed to having people come and where mothers can come. And we already have the space. It's in the mountains. It's very peaceful. Mothers can come together. I've already had people reach out to where we could make the meals that our sons, our children, daughters, sons loved, share time, share stories, share memories. That's healing. Being in nature where there is no there's no noise. It's not a podcast. It's not the story. It's not the ugly of what happened. It's not the poison that's happening to some every day you can turn on the news. That's the healing part. If your sons could speak to people struggling right now, what do you think they would say? I think Devin would say, I'm going to be, yeah, you probably, you probably listen to your mom. But he would also say, build the relationship with yourself first. The most important relationship is the one that you can have with yourself. And I think he would also, knowing Devin's personality, walk through life with kindness. Just being kind isn't easier. It's just easier on life when we're kind. And when you show kindness to somebody else, we need to turn that inward to ourselves because Devin was one of the kindest people I knew, but he beat him up. He beat himself up so much. And so it's giving ourselves grace as well. Yeah. Dylan would say the same. He would say, first I know he would say, first he said he took it too far. I heard him say that when I got that phone call. I'm sorry, mom, I took it too far. And he would say, it's okay to be vulnerable and it's okay to say you need help. And you need to say that. When did he say, when did he say he took it too far? He would always say that. That was a thing. He had two sayings growing up would be I took it because he was a skateboarder. There was a lot of action, a lot of things all the time. I took it too far and one more time. Or his two things he said. He said one more time. And that was because he liked attention. He liked us to watch him do his tricks. And but I took it too far was what came into my head immediately was I took it too far, mom. And I'm so sorry because he knew that he knew that I was going to have to endure this now. So Dylan died in the height of which is 2022. There was nothing being spoken of it at that time. You couldn't see it on the news. No word was mentioned of it. I would Dylan leaving rehab. No one in rehab at that time was saying there's this thing called that is like in a pill or you can smoke it. It can be touching another substance if he comes in contact with someone that's using something. It was not being spoken of. I didn't I didn't know anything about. In the epidemic that it became and is the crisis that it is. So that's to raise awareness for that. We know again the people that have lost now are now coming in also sharing their stories. We're one of so many. There's the walks, the shadow proof walks. There's walk for life. There's United against. There are it's the highest rate of deaths between 18 to 40 in ever of this of this of our lifetime. We will look back at this time of life as that there was so much that could have been done. What why why it wasn't done and how it was allowed to get this far is is something that I like I said that is my fight that that is therapeutic in its own in its own right because it is a fire in me that I can use my voice. My voice it does matter and I will not be silenced and I will break stigma and I will break shame because no mother should be shamed ever and however you you can get healed and be healed if the worst nightmare comes to your phone you lose your child. However that happens but to have it be a poison that was unavoidable and a murder is is I have answers I have questions and I want answers so that's you know I'll continue until that until we get some. One of the things I would like to say is to do it scared do it loud recover out loud yes because in today's time it's either you recover you die share your stories and if you heal someone else I mean let's pass it on this is a this is like you know we're out of time. Well and one of the things I use stories till Devin be ahead of it before it breaks your body or takes your life. Because the drugs are not harmless and to break the stigma there is no shame in being an addict. Some of the strongest people I know are those of recovery. The other thing I started to talk to Christy but is that you know we need more accessible rehab not you know it'd be great if everyone could go to a luxury rehab insurance cuts off for an apparent that's paying at 26 you're cut off so you're paying out of pocket they need they need more IOP availability they need immediate detox you can't wait for a bed every county every city every especially a thousand is where we live this is a wealthy area this should be every single street corner should have a detox to walk in and get something for anxiety and medication that's that's safe and won't kill you because when you're detoxing when you're detoxing is painful. So let me tell you that's beautiful let me tell you what's out there okay there are certain rehabs I know because I have one it's called one method center okay and you can go to this center and centers like it for like 500 bucks right and that pays your deductible because you have to pay the deductible right and then you get 30 days of free treatment right I mean this is this can work okay so where is that located well we're located in Chevy at Hills it's called one method center but anybody can call us at Carrera or one method and if we can't help you we know where you can get help we refer people out all day long that we can't take it's not that it's not accessible it's just if you're not if you don't have if you're not in the rehab business or you haven't navigated it for a long time you don't really know what's out there or how to find it and then what's worse than that is a lot of these places are not righteous no right so so Devin was body-brokered at a rehab so listen I just had a kid in my rehab that walked into my rehab and pulled out two people to go to another rehab okay it's sleazy okay but there are some of us that are righteous yes they're doing it for the right reasons yes right I mean I sold my last business for a lot of money I don't have to work I did it because the all crisis was here yes and this time I wanted to help the military and veterans and so that's what we use one method for and a bunch of the houses and we've got regular folks in in the other ones so it's not just you know my high-end center it's not just that like you know what I'm saying and there's there's places out there and if anybody needs it anybody you can always DM us or call us we'll always help refer you out no matter what situation you're in yeah always and that's so it's out there it's just the good ones are hard to find and I get it and some it's bad deal and it doesn't guarantee no it doesn't because one of the things if I'm able to say this rehab like you're saying is absolutely mandatory but what's also mandatory is aftercare and if that comes in the form of therapy three times a week it's the aftercare relapse is or can be part of recovery but sometimes there's not always there's not always I mean is but what I'm trying to say is that there is no shame in reaching out so the aftercare supports the work you've done let me ask you a question you're exactly right let me ask you a question how many times had did your kids say when you wanted to take him to rehab how many times do they say I'll just do IOP first um Devin would he knew he would Devin wanted to be sober and he didn't always trust the IOP to get him clean he knew he needed the rehabs it would take it would take convincing to get him there there wasn't there was a point for a small window where he said I'm tired of rehabs I don't want to do this I don't want this to be my life that's what Dylan would say I don't want to do this but he knew he knew the severity of his of his addiction and he didn't feel safe in IOP and then rehab he knew he needed the rehab ladies I want you to do me a favor I want you to tell people where they can reach you and I want you to give them um the name of your podcast the DK 805 podcast came about from Devin and Dylan and Katrina and Christy yes to honor our boys so she's a K and I'm a K and both the boys are Ds that's right and 805 is our area code our area code so DK 805 podcast breaking stigmas because there is no shame in being in kindness compassion and just uh you know there is no right one way there's no one way you guys so you guys went ahead and the community that you've developed for yourselves is support very much you guys what kind of support you were getting that's what I was referring to but I want you guys to um before we get off I want to have an agreement okay oh we're gonna have a contract okay I want you guys for a year an entire year we'll give you back your misery okay for one year on Mondays and Thursdays or Tuesdays and Fridays I don't care I just want it spaced out so you have time to process okay I want you guys going to a therapist okay we'll look for one okay but guys this is the type of a thing where you have to go to a couple therapists okay might take you a month or two to find someone you align with okay someone who you feel safe talking to who's nurturing but won't sit there and let you vent the entire time one thing at a time this is this is your problem now let me help you right size right size this thing okay I'm asking you to do the right thing for yourselves and this is why we're here you know if you believe in God okay then you're awake okay yeah I'm awake okay this is the only reason I'm here today yes just to give you guys to give you guys relief this had nothing to do with any of this today you know at the end of when I do something I go oh that's why I was doing that today so I want to have a contract are you guys willing right away when we get off the phone when we get off this thing I want you guys to immediately start looking for a therapist I will do the same okay but I need you guys to do it with a sense of urgency will you guys make that commitment to do twice a week for a year yes yes I want I want to I want to be a better person of course we do not break contracts with ourselves I will not break a contract my days might have to be back to back with my schedule but I will go twice a week whatever you need to do okay whatever you good all right I feel good about this ladies thank you for sharing your son's stories and your stories and I feel hopeful for you I think what you guys are doing is heroic letting everybody know about your grief so that other parents don't have to go through the immeasurable pain that you're going through it is yeah you guys are the best but our children were not just their addiction and they their lives matter and we will we will speak for as loud as we can to just to make that point excellent see you next Tuesday okay thank you we're out of time please subscribe on youtube click the thumbs up and leave a comment please subscribe on apple podcast and spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of time podcast with others you know who will get value out of it see you next Tuesday