OB433: Gaslit by ATC

One, the controller has in their head student pilot making mistakes, doing the wrong thing, doesn't know where the IDENT button is. Student pilot thinking, controllers do no wrong, they don't make mistakes. I'm somehow must be doing this. None of this is making sense. Ready. Welcome to Opposing Bases Air Traffic Talk, an aviation podcast by T. Two air traffic controllers and rated pilots who love to talk about flying, controlling and everything in between. The show is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as a substitute for your instructor, your supervisor, the FAA, the NTSB or your CAT. The show will give you a better understanding of how things work in the national airspace system and maybe even make you laugh along the way. Please welcome retired Army pilot Alpha Golf and course officer at Penguin Airlines, Romeo Hotel. It's Wednesday, April 1st, 2026, episode 433. On today's show we'll talk about a student pilot's confusing radar identification story, a class Bravo 757 encounter and more aviation questions. What's up, Baygie? Hello, hello, everyone. Happy second episode, double header day. Two in a row. Two weeks in a row where we recorded two episodes, correct. We should just do like a marathon where for just a couple days we just do shows like for a day and then we just take a couple months off. We could do that if our show is slightly different format. We do rely on some timely stuff to keep the conversation moving. There are certain parts of it though that the emails are not yesterday emails, but the shell of a show could be done ahead of time, but there's parts of it that need the flow of current information. We alluded to this last week. My April schedule is not conducive to Wednesday recordings and that's our overlap day. Thank you for doing doubles with me and thank you to the live stream for keeping up with us for two weeks in a row on these super long episode recordings. Yeah. Well, it works out for me because I have next week off anyway. Excellent. Yeah, it'll be good. We are also off next week that coincides with our kids' school. Yours are off next week, not this week. Oh, good. Next week. So yeah, here we are. The weather's nice. It's starting to turn into spring here. It's feeling more like spring. Oh, yeah. The pollen got rained away for at least a minute or so. It's a little bit different this week than last week. It was like green everywhere. Now it's, I don't feel like there's as much pollen. There's still some. There's some. Yeah. But it's not as bad. I'm tolerating it better than when I first moved here for sure because normally like right now I would just be completely miserable and I feel okay. Okay. Last week I did not feel great and my wife says, why don't you take this, take this, take this little pill because I'm afraid of taking pills because I know there's a list of things we're allowed to take but. I'm with you. I don't want to be on the ones that aren't, take the wrong one and some of them are non-drowsy but some of them are not non-drowsy and that's not a good mix. Yeah, you don't want that. Super illegal. So yeah, I'm ready to jump right in if you are. Let's do it. All right, let's do it since. 10 minutes ago we have two new supporters on the iceberg, Kilo Whiskey and Julia Bravo. Our new two Supercast, our premium feed. If you want to find out more about that you can go to opposingbasis.supercast.com. Supporters get every episode on time with no delays. We're going to be like four weeks ahead after this. I think this episode comes out at the end of April. They'll access to our live stream recording, bonus audio and a direct line to us to our supporter only email which is how this show is made. Emails, questions from our listeners and we do our best to answer those. You keep the show ad-free and community supported. Thank you for joining us. Thank you everybody. Mm-hmm. Review and announcements. Review and announcements. You get the review. Have you ever taken a sip of coffee and you can tell your throat or something is telling you, no, you cannot swallow this coffee right now. It's just not going to work. You're going to. You are your choices. Suffer. I spit it all over your screen. You can, because if you try to swallow this coffee right now, if you try to drink it, you are going to inhale it. That's the feeling that's in your throat. Is this going to work? You have to wait. It's not ready. Did that just happen? That just happened. Mm-hmm. You did great. You're on a live show. You made it work. You didn't spit it everywhere. Good job. Yeah, it's not terribly hot. So, mm-hmm. All right, the review. Considering 10 minutes ago in our time, in real time, we just discussed the uniqueness of the American way of life in a broader sense. This could not be better timed. Agreed. This is five stars titled, The Declaration of ATC Independence. And I'm going to include the name of the screen name first. Penguins have rights too from the US of A. This is fantastic. Did you want to do your disclaimer beforehand or that was it? Oh, no. You're right. The disclaimer. I don't. This does not necessarily represent the views of myself or the show. I am just a conduit through which this is being read. Mm-hmm. Okay, that's it. I'm just reading this. I may or may not agree with it. I don't know yet. I haven't read it entirely, so. And fairness, I have not read it either. I try to make these a surprise for me too. Yeah, okay, good. It's a very dangerous actually. It is. All right. When in the course of aviation events, it becomes necessary for ATC to dissolve the bureaucratic bonds which connected them with the FAA and to assume among aviators and controllers of the NAS, the separate and equal authority to which the laws of aerodynamics and the sacred text of the Septu... I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. The sacred text of the 7110 entitled them, a decent respect to the opinions of pilots requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to subscribe to the podcast known as opposing bases. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all pilots are created equal, though some are inexplicably fond of the dreaded kilo, that they are endowed by the obi gods with certain expectations among these proper flight following phraseology, concise radio calls, and the steadfast pledge to never utter the detested proclamation last call. That to secure these principles, controllers are instituted amongst the frequency-clogging masses wrapping aviators in the warm fuzzy blanket of ATC, especially when spoken in the most patient voice of the mythical triad. But when wandering penguins fall off our icebergs and helmet fires ensue, it becomes the duty of the pilot to seek the wisdom of the mighty R.H.N.A.G. and restore order upon the airwaves, and for the support of this declaration, we mutually pledge our supercast subscriptions, our five-star reviews, and our solemn promise to never again check in using the phrase with you, unless of course we're talking to CINNER, who probably already forgot about us anyway. Bravo. Well done. Crowd noise. Well done. Someone please put that in for an OB for 2026. There's already stiff competition and we're in our third month, fourth month now. That is fantastic. I love it. Very good. Well done. Okay, moving on to announcements. Number one, I think there's only one from Supercaster Golf Bravo. I started listening to OB when I was an avgeek and flightless, like your penguin mascot, but a discovery flight gift from my wife led to lessons, and yesterday at the age of 56, I became a private pilot. Congrats. Awesome. It took a year and three instructors to get enough penguins onto my ever-contracting iceberg, but I was too stubborn to quit. It's now onto instrument training, which will hopefully help me understand more of what you guys talk about on the show. Well, congratulations Golf Bravo. That is awesome news. And good luck with your instrument. And you're never at an age where you can't start some form of training. Yeah. Yeah. 56 is young. 56 is the new 25. That's right. Just made that up. It has to be right though. It has to be. Excellent. Thank you for sharing. For those of you who don't know, we do an announcement section on the show. We share your aviation milestones. And even if you don't think it's worthy of the show, send it. And it may end up on here. Yeah. Cool. Excellent. Yeah. Move it up. Music. Damn, they feedback. I felt special on that one. Very robotic. There are two of these. Which one would you like? I'll do one. Go. Number one from Emperor Captain Juliet's Lima, Sierra, who summarized. I did the summary for you. Oh, you summarized with some quotes based on the question, will ADSB eventually replace the spinning radar? All right, GNAG, I was very happy to hear you like my review. Finally, a podcast that makes me feel less dumb and more informed in my feedback about GPS antenna jamming GPS antennas. Great job. Both pronounced the way you have aimed to pronounce it recently. Okay. Thank you. You notice I didn't say right or wrong. Okay. Would you say the words then? Antenna, I say it like you've been saying it recently. Okay. It's the new pronunciation. Sure. For me. For you. My new pronunciation. Yes. I'm also sorry. My new pronunciation. I'm also sorry. My wife calls you robot head. Me. Well, you didn't have to. Didn't have to include that. Apology. You can just not know. I think it was in the first feedback. They did reveal that this was my nickname. It was robot heads. It was the robot head. Right. Okay. We're struggling here. I think we're just... Take a deep breath. We're going to make it. We're getting deep breath. We've got the giggles in the middle of church here. Yeah. I'll stop. Okay. I've been an engineer working on GPS location systems, cellular and 911 technology for 30 years. I thought I'd give a little feedback on why ADS-B will not totally replace radar. You see? This is just what I was saying. Batcave. Yep. And we say a thing. Somebody on the show knows about it. It's their job. It has been their profession for the last 30 years. All right. Just let me reiterate. The C-mail had was chuck full of stuff. Big words that I certainly can't get through. So I did a lot of summary here. This is in a way that you can read it. Okay. Okay. That sounded terrible. I dumbed this down just for age. Okay. There. Thank you. To look on your face. This is very thoughtful. All right. The answer to the question, will ADS-B replace radar? Probably no. The reason is a fundamental limitation. It's possible to spoof the aircraft's position because ADS-B is self-reported from onboard GPS. By contrast, primary radar determines aircraft position independently based on physics without any reliance on the aircraft's cooperation or honesty. That's the key difference. He says that one of the primary reasons primary radar will likely never be fully retired because it lets ATC cross check ADS-B. Bottom line, the system works best when radar and ADS-B are fused together validating each other. All right. It is a dream of mine. That's where this stem from because we fly over the water and I know somebody can see us. They're watching us the entire time. Right. Right. And we play this non-radar game and it's super, it just seems like there should be a solution to this. And now you've ruined that dream of mine. Yeah, that's dead. That's dead. Yeah. It's gone. What if we had a system though that took away or aimed at fixing those security vulnerabilities? We're not going to do a whole series of unspoofing, but if that's the problem and that information that the airplane is spitting out, it has a chance to be infected with some sort of virus, then maybe we can make efforts to stop that. So the military does that. Okay. They have encrypted GPS signals. All right. Which is kind of complicated and guarding that encryption becomes highly secretive and highly sensitive that now you would be placing that some similar burden on aviation users. You would just have to have some kind of a password to make it simple, I guess. Some sort of key for the user. Right. Interesting. Okay. So everybody with a Skyhawk has to have this encryption key. Well now it feels like it's getting kind of easy. Yeah. We've opened up. Right. Yeah. The secrets are out and they're no longer secrets. Yeah. I get it. So if you're not understanding what we're talking about, in primary radar, the solution that has been used for air traffic since the beginning of radar, the spinning antenna you see at the airport, that can obviously can't be located everywhere in the world. But with ADS-B and ADS-B, is it C, the satellite, ADS-B, they're seeing our signal. It's being fed the space and transmitted back to the land-based facilities that can see us. There's apps that track us. They know exactly where we are. Yeah. There is vulnerability there for security and I can appreciate that. And I don't have all the solutions, but it's frustrating because I feel like in 2026, there has to be a better solution than these non-radar games we play when we know someone can see us. Yeah, we're so close. We're so close for it to be an official kind of thing. Yes. And then Juliette Lumicera is just telling us that that's never going to happen. But what if you took another source of data that isn't corruptible like your IRS and then integrated it, it did a check off of, so at least for transatlantic, trans-pacific airline stuff who has that $300,000 box sitting in the avionics compartment, it can talk to the ADSB and say, is this, are we good? Is this where we are? Yep, this is where we are. With then X amount of miles. You may get an offer to be a contractor now and work for some DOD facility. Yeah. That might be it. Some sort of internal check. Hey, GPS is getting spoofed. Does it match the IRS? No. Which is correct, IRS. Feed that to the ADSB machine and make it so. Right. You heard it here, we just lost millions in a deal. Just millions of ground. Someone just stole that idea. But at least we have proof. Yeah, you heard it here first. All right, thank you for that feedback and for crushing my dreams. Number two from Supercaster Juliette Romeo, A.G. and R.H. I really enjoyed episode 430 and the quick interview with MJ on Rich People Airport. I've flown in and out of there many times with Buckeye Fractional and the controllers do a fantastic job of working traffic in and out, especially when the winds are less cooperative. I love flying into Aspen, but it's an airport you have to treat with respect on both departure and arrival. The two publicly available approaches, runway 15, have decent angles. Oh, 6.49 and 6.... That's very steep. That's double. It's over double. That's standard descent angle. Yeah. For their localizer DME, although some operators have authorization required approaches with shallower descent angles. Yeah, the Terpself can kind of allude to that, how those are designed, but that would not work in some airplanes. You wouldn't be able to get the airplane configured in a way that can go down this spatial type of descent. So that has to be amended to be closer to a three-degree glide slope and companies, it seems like they can do that on the side. The localizer DME Echo is unique in that you fly one localizer inbound, but fly a different localizer back course outbound on the missed approach to the lens intersection, which is part of the departure we heard about on the last show. Flying outbound on the back course does provide normal sensing. I wondered about that because when you look at the departure procedure, it shows the localizer being just pointed off in some random direction from the runway. Well, what is that the approach localizer? Are we doing a localizer alpha approach here? Yeah, that's... Because it's so many degrees off. But that's just for the outbound. Interesting. That is interesting. Rich people, airport is indeed getting a new runway next year, which will change the wingspan restriction that MJ mentioned at least. 2027 is the latest timeframe I've heard. The runway is being shifted 80 feet to the west to increase the distance between the runway centerline and the taxiway centerline to 400 feet, and the runway will be widened to 150 feet. The current wingspan restriction is 95 feet, which will increase to 118 feet once the new runway is complete. Sincerely, Supercaster Julia Romeo, that will open up a commercial operation I would be willing to bet Airbus. I don't have those numbers in my head, but that seems like it would open up a whole another conglomerate of planes that could go in there. Yeah, that's probably the idea. Our mountain airport that we fly to in my fleet is special qualification. There's only a handful of captains that are qualified to go in there, and it's because of the terrain and all the things. That seems like that's plausible with this wider runway and my bigger wingspan between the taxiways. Imagine being a passenger going in there and seeing that from the back, like watching an airplane pass off your left as you're leaving. It seems crazy to me. Yeah. All right. Anything to add to that one? No. Thank you, Julia Romeo. Good hearing from you, and for the feedback, I'll follow up on Rich People Airport. All right. Moving on. Blackjack music. Blackjack music. Moving on. You need to get that picture on screen. Okay. This week's show topic is brought to us by... Why did I not put their email in here? Hmm. I can't remember right now. I'll go look on who sent this to us. They sent us a link to a YouTube video that we are obviously not going to play a video on the show because we're a podcast. It's audio. We're going to play the audio from that. I did my best to shorten it. It's about eight minutes long. All required information for this. There's really nothing that can be taken out. It's all relevant to the conversation that we're going to have following it up. And if you want to get that map up, show the different areas we're talking about. And be patient. There's this... There's going to be a good conversation after this. And some of you hearing this for the first time are going to get a little frustrated. Uh-huh. Yes. Uh... Yep. I'm working on that. Okay. I'm ready to hit play on the audio when you are. I know you can do both those at the same time. So I'm just giving you a second here. I've messed it up. Okay. Let me get ready to play this. All right. I'm ready. Three, two, one. One, two, Charlie Bravo. One, two, Charlie Bravo. Were you play following the Navasota or the FBAR? Fly following the Navasota, one, two, Charlie Bravo. One, two, Charlie Bravo. Squawk, FBAR. Frequency change approved. There's one, three, Charlie Bravo. Squawk, FBAR. One, two, zero, zero. And if you want to play following, make a request with Tom Ball on 119.7. Houston and Parchus, got one, three, Charlie Bravo. Requesting flight following to 6-0, Romeo, and this is students solo. The one, three, Charlie Bravo. Houston approach, I-Dent. Been trying to get you since you left hook. You have me now. Three, Charlie Bravo, I-Dent and FAY Altitude. I-Dent and Altitude is 1,600, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo. Still waiting for the I-Dent and turn northbound. I-Dent and turning northbound, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, radar contact, one, five miles west of Devlin. Just be advised, I didn't get the I-Dent yet. I'll try it again. I've hit it three times now. Three, Charlie Bravo. And you're continuing left. Just fly hitting a 350, hitting 350. Fly hitting 350, one, three, Charlie Bravo. If you're feeling I-Dent on my side, is it not showing on yours? It is. Am I getting anything on this side? Just have checked out later. It's not a problem. Number three, Charlie Bravo, you're turning back to the south, right, right turn, heading 350. There's traffic just south, east of you, westbound at 2,500. So you want me to turn to the south or continue on 350? No, I went down to 350. You were turning back to the left there, so just turn right, hitting 350. The traffic south of you. I'm showing 350. Charlie Bravo, I currently show you on a 320 heading. Oh, no, it says 350. Three, Charlie Bravo, I'm pretty much showing you northbound now, and what is your request? I'm requesting to go to 60 Romeo. You're just going VFR to the field, or are you looking for an approach? A VFR to the field. Three, Charlie Bravo, Navasota, turn left heading at 320. Turning 320, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, I'll show you on a 080 heading now. I've got a heading of 320. Three, Charlie Bravo, you almost do eastbound at this point, and you took up, made pretty much a left 270. Um, well, it shows me heading almost towards 60 Romeo. Now I show you in a left turn for November 3. Yeah, I'm at 320 right now. I show you do northbound about a 360 or maybe 350 heading. What are your requests that I do? Three, Charlie Bravo, and I don't know if there's something wrong with your instrumentation or what you'd like to do. You want to return back to hook, do you want to continue on to Navasota, be cautious there, there's a lot of gather activity there. Looks like you do need to have something on your avionics check. I'll go back to the 13, Charlie Bravo. I'm at 13, Charlie Bravo, so let's do this. Just start a right turn, I'll tell you when to stop, and do about half standard right turns. You're at 13, Charlie Bravo, and I'll show you you did a full 360 there, now you're northbound. Hooks is at your approximately four o'clock and about two zero miles. Roger. Two o'clock. At three, Charlie Bravo, just start a slow right hand turn, and I'll tell you when to stop it and level your wing. Starting my right hand turn, one, three, Charlie Bravo. At three, Charlie Bravo, just a slow right hand turn, and once I get you kind of pointing towards the airport, I'll have you stop the turn and just level back out. Everything in my plan is showing me I'm flying away from David Wayne hooks right now, one, three, Charlie Bravo. At three, Charlie Bravo, yeah, it's all saying you're direct David Wayne hooks, yeah, something's off on the avionics. Like I said, just start a slow right hand turn, and when I get you aimed at hooks, I will have you level back off. Roger, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, looks like you're slowing back here pretty good as well, you might want to pick the feed back up. At three, Charlie Bravo, traffic two miles northwest of East-South-Eastbound, altitude eight, 3,100. Negative contact, one, three, Charlie Bravo. At three, Charlie Bravo, just level the wings on your present heading, and just take a minute then we're going to look at the indicator, the heading indicator and see what it says. Zero, one, two, one, three, Charlie Bravo. At three, Charlie Bravo, you're saying your heading indicator says you're flying at zero, one, zero? Zero, one, five, right now. At three, Charlie Bravo, is your attitude indicator showing level? Yes. Affirmative, one, three, Charlie Bravo, and I'm flying towards Lake Conroe, so that doesn't really make sense to me either. At three, Charlie Bravo, and I show you well southwest of Lake Conroe, you're flying away from that. So it's Crew Check 166 here, we've been listening. We've got three Charlie Bravo on our ADSB on our plane, and we also just saw that it looks like she is heading towards Conroe, Lake Conroe. Crew Check 166, where do you see that? On our traffic map, like the ADSB on board, we have her heading that way, Crew Check 166. She just passed behind us, going towards the right of us, like relative to us, she's heading towards Lake Conroe, Crew Check 166. You know, one, three, Charlie Bravo, I think I know the issue here, there's another aircraft that has your code here. Let me fix that. You know, three, Charlie Bravo, Roger, and Ident for me? Ident, one, three, Charlie Bravo. You know, three, Charlie Bravo, and somebody else had your tag, that was the confusion. I do show you northeastbound now. Verify your altitude. One thousand seven hundred, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, read our contact, approximately one two miles west of Conroe Airport, and you say you're on about a zero one five heading currently? Zero one seven, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, Roger, thank you, and you can resume navigation now, actually it looks like everything's fine, I guess the other one just had the wrong one. Roger, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, Roger, and I show you pretty much westbound now, is that correct? Roger, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, Roger, and you will take your almost direct to Navisota now. Sorry for that confusion. No worries, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Three, Charlie Bravo, reset your transponder, squawk zero four four six, and I just want to verify the type aircraft. Skyhawk, one, three, Charlie Bravo, a resetting transponder. Can you repeat squawk code again please? Zero four four six. Squawk zero four four six, one, three, Charlie Bravo. No, one, three, Charlie Bravo, and you departed off of Hooks, is that correct? Roger, one, three, Charlie Bravo. One, three, Charlie Bravo, I do apologize for the confusion, an aircraft came off of Hooks with your call sign, the one, three, Charlie Bravo, westbound, I've been reaching out to them for a while, and when you finally called up I thought that was you, and I asked for a turn, and they turned and I thought it was you, I apologize for that. No problem at all, I think they had a little confusion when we're all taken off there, so I appreciate the help. Three, Charlie Bravo, Roger, and do you have the local airy weather and noems for Navasota? I'll be in contact when I get it, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Roger. Three, Charlie Bravo, and I talked to the tower, I guess it was three Mike Tealow that took your squawk code and they were going to have a discussion with him about it. Thank you, one, three, Charlie Bravo. Only on a speed and solo, right? Of course. Good job remaining calm through all that though, that was very confusing for all of you both. Thank you. Distortion from the north, going to do a low panel. Sealing. Same caution over flying, skydiving, east in the next seven minutes. Navasota traffic. Navasota traffic, say hello to one, three, Charlie Bravo, clear runway 35, go ahead and set up. All right, that's it, that's all we're going to play today. How about work? I watched you, this is the second time we've heard this. Okay. Watch the video the first time. Let me review what happened and maybe you can point on the map while I'm talking about it real quick. Oh, I just, I just took that. So the aircraft left an airport, a Delta underneath a Bravo shelf, a very short shelf underneath Bravo, and they departed to the northwest on a student pilot solo. So they have to navigate FIAFAR underneath a Bravo shelf. They did not have a Bravo clearance. They took off, everything was legal on their takeoff. And when they came off the airport, controller one said, contact controller two, who you heard most of the audio from, but told them to squawk 1200. So when they went to the second controller, they were on a 1200 code. The second controller watched the stolen tag take off on that same airport and proceed westbound off the airport. And that's who he thought he was talking to for 75% of that audio. Was the other aircraft doing maneuvers like steep turns and stalls and all the things you heard him say because he was staring at that stolen tag. She continued northbound towards the lake that's on the north part of your screen there. And we'll talk about the, I'll have plenty of great things to say about the students reaction to all of this. We'll put a link to the video in the show notes for those of you who want to see it. Where would you like to start this discussion? There's a lot to unpack here. Is that a good summary of what happened? She headed north, this airplane headed west. They thought it was the westbound airplane. Go. Yeah. So you talked about what the controller sees or did we? We didn't yet. I did not talk about that. I'll say it real quick. Yeah. When you tag up whatever codes you were issued, and let's say it was one, two, three, four, another airplane took it. When she talked to the controller that's looking at this one, two, three, four code that is her call sign, she's on a 1200 code. They have no idea this is two different at targets. What you're given in your initial VFR clearance, that code correlates to the NAS and it says one, two, three, four code goes to this call sign. When it tags up on the radar screen, the controller presents it with your call sign, aircraft type, everything that the tower controller entered into the system for you to take off. I don't, my guess is she wasn't on a 1200 code, she was on her code, but the other aircraft tagged up first. Yeah. Originally, I believe that's correct. Yes. Yeah. So then the system recognizes that as the real one. And when the second one comes off, it's just going to, who? Yeah, who is this? Who? Imposter. Yep. And they gave them, they gave her a 1200 code and said, contact this other person, be gone. Right here. I don't know what's happening with your code. It's not working. I can't look at it anymore. Please make it stop. It stops walking the same code as somebody else and I don't know who that is. I mean, that might not even be, that might not even have, that controller may not have even realized that that's what was happening. They did. It's just on the wrong code. I don't know why I'm too busy to deal with it. Go to a 1200 code because it takes up less space on the scope. Yes. You go from being a full data block that's a flashing who, who, who, it's super distracting. It takes up miles of airspace to a V, a simple V and then three numbers. Excuse me. That may not be the case at every facility at Triad. It's a V. Go ahead. Right. It's just a V and it's just small and out of the way. All right. Let me phrase this way. It's not distracting. You're the second controller. She calls and you're looking at the aircraft target that stole that code. Explain what's happening in your brain when she's not doing what you see the target doing. Right. The, the student pilot part of this is what's playing into the controller's mind. Okay. That leads him down this path in my, if I had to guess, does a student pilot solo, maybe she's lost, she's wild maneuvering wildly in an attempt to just go on a straight cross country. Why does he keep 30? Flying like a crazy person. So he asked her to ident and doesn't see anything. He's looking at the wrong tag, right? So then he asked for a turn northbound, which she does, but imposter plane who's out there doing steep turns, okay, is not complying with these instructions for some reason, but does do enough of a turn more than 30 degrees for the controller to go, oh, I, there you are turning. They did say radar contact. Very early in audio. Radar contact. Yes. Yes. Now we've really, we're just stacking up stuff, cementing this idea in our head that this has to be the plane. This is who I'm talking to. I've got this one doing pirouettes out here in the practice area. Lost. Not aimed towards. With broken avionics. Yes. And I'm saving her. Listen, I don't, if this happened at our facility, we would give the controller a bad time, all right? For weeks. For a long time. Yes. It's super easy to, to sharpshoot this afterwards, to Monday morning quarterback this. I can see how you get into this. I can get into the mindset of how you get into this situation. All right. Let's go back to basics. When an airplane comes off of this airport, how do you identify them? What are your choices for identifying an airplane and saying the words radar contact, which we've talked about at Nausium and previous shows, but just review that for us. What do you need to accomplish as a controller to be able to legally say radar contact? So the simplest thing is an ident. All right. And I see the ident. That secondary radar, super easy. Another one for primary radar. When I say secondary radar, we're talking about the transponder side of the radar. Okay. So not the actual physical, not the actual return, spinning thing going around, shoots a beam, comes back, tells me there's something right there. So secondary is just the transponder primary is the actual radar. And I can use position correlation. So the pilot departs us, we are one mile east of this airport climbing through whatever, you know, they do their check in and I look and I see a tag and I see a primary right there. Where they say they are. Where they say they are. And there's no one else near there. That's the key part of this. Okay. So if you have like three planes there within three miles of each other, this is not a great method of identification. Okay. How many times have you made a call as a pilot and said, I'm 10 miles to the northwest of XYZ. It's more like 12 or 12. Yeah. Okay. And there could be other planes that would easily meet that. So use caution as a controller on pure position correlation. All right. Now I will defend the controller again. You said I could get into this mindset. They have relatively close position in relation to the airport within like 10 miles of this airport and it's on a tag that's saying that call sign. Yeah. It's so hard for your brain to overcome this. I'm telling you. Virtually impossible. Right. I dent several times and she did it. She did her, I think the last one was her fourth time she used I dent. But it was the fourth one was the first time the controller saw it because this airplane doing steep turns wasn't listening to you. They're in the practice area. They're not going to I dent. Why would they? Right. So it never flashed. I dent creates a flashing on the scope that knows that makes the controller realize you're the ones responding to this instruction to I dent. So they are assuming in the better half of this conversation that this pilot is unable to find the I dent button. It's not working. Also you're lost and why do you keep turning? I'm going to help you. I'm going to save the day. Right. And then it all comes clear at the end. All right. So simple position correlation turns greater than 30 degrees, which they tried. They said put it, start a right turn. I'll tell you when to stop. Yeah. I think initially they had to listen again. But I think initially that's the method they were, they probably were using. I agree with that. Just turns greater than 30 degrees. It seems to be the one they spent the most time on. Yeah. Departure observed within one mile of the runway with coordination. I doubt they're using because this is. Yep. They're not. Because it's a second controller. So yeah. Right. There's no strip sitting there. It's a VFR. Yeah. So you need, and then the tower says, hey, this plane is rolling. And then that's the next plane you see within a mile of the departure. And you can say radar contact. Right. Which is how we identify departures at Triad. That's the everyday way. One of my favorite ways to, I don't want to say upset the trainee, but when they say radar contact, I like to say what method of radar identification did you use? Right. A lot of them would say the, based on secondary radar, the code, the code they see them, they're coming off on, let's say it's a Delta flight. And look, it matches the call sign. It has to be Delta. I got a strip. That's not how you're identifying it. That's incorrect. Right. That is false. You are identifying a primary target that is a mile from the runway or less. And that strip that you got is the coordination that they were coming. We can do that by SOP at Triad. We don't have to call for departures. Right. So again, I'll say it, the controller had no reason to believe that the target on their scope wasn't the student unless, and this is hard. I do sympathize. They have to listen and piece together the clues. You've asked them to identify. They're not identity. The target is not exactly where she said she was. She said she was northbound aimed towards this big giant lake out here. It's Fiafar. You walked from the car to the Traycon. You see it's sunny. They're not lost. They're telling you exactly where they are. You're just not listening to the information. They're not heading in the direction that you're telling them to fly or that she was saying. So the target you're looking at doing steep turns and stalls and slow flight at low altitudes over the practice area, again, I want to say this, I'm trying to be very respectful of the confusion that was happening because stalling tags are very, very confusing in the Traycon. If the information that you're being fed from the control or from the pilot is completely opposite of what you're seeing, you have to pause. Something isn't right. Instead of forcing this solution, no, no, no, you're right here. This is you. You have to be aware that your information could be wrong. In this case, this is how it ended up working out. Somebody stole the tag and it wasn't them. Now you found them because you looked 10 miles further north on your scope. Now it all makes sense, but you have to have the wherewithal as a controller. When the information doesn't match and the instructions are not being followed, to pause and think. This could be a stolen tag. I know that's harder to do than it is to say right now on the show Monday morning quarterback. Thoughts? Yeah. I mean. I will be on the ground. I will be honest. When I watched this the first time, I got so frustrated. If I had any hair, I would have pulled it out. The pilot in this case, man, I cannot. I try to imagine myself. It's hard to imagine me as a student pilot doing this. I can't remember what it, I just don't. So I put me in the cockpit. I would have lost my mind. I would have absolutely lost my mind. What is this controller doing? What is happening? Yeah. I would have been, I would have started to get irritated. I am not turning. I am flying northbound at 1200 feet or whatever altitude. I haven't turned in 10 miles. Okay. You're looking at the wrong thing. But she is so patient. Yes. You could see her getting frustrated a couple times. In the video. But she never loses her composure. Nope. She even laughs a little bit. She does. She's smiling. Like what is happening? Let's talk about that. A student pilot on his solo is a significant event in your life at that time. You're by yourself going from your home airport where you're comfortable, you're used to it, you're used to doing pattern work. And now it's about 35 miles. I did the measuring on it. This isn't for a cross country. This is just them building solo time. It's about 35 miles away, which might as well be to the moon when you're a student pilot. After you get five miles from your airport, you're in uncharted territory. You may have gone there with your instructor, but when you're on your own and you're responsible for navigating, it feels different. It's a little bit scary to couple that with a controller who's convinced you're somebody else on the scope. And to be able to get through that, I think she did a fantastic job of getting through that. Yeah. And telling you that you're doing things that you're not doing. That's where I would have totally gone. I just would have gotten so upset. Okay. You just did a right to 70. No, I didn't. I did not. I have not done that. I liked my favorite part about her dialogue was, this doesn't make sense. I'm aimed at this lake. Yeah. I can see this lake. Yeah. I'm pointed right at it. For the controllers listening, that is a big clue. Okay. Before you assume that this is something's, everything's right on your end and that she's the problem, pause and say, what am I doing wrong here? I know that's hard because the data block in front of you is saying opposite of what's happening in real life. But you have to recognize that it's a possibility. Someone stole the tag. If that's never happened to you as a controller, well, now you know, this is how confusing it can be. But for her to say, no, no, no, I see this lake. I know, no, I've been flying for 10 minutes. I'm not where you, right? Good on you. Can you explain what your opinion on this? Cause it's hard to go back into student pilot world. And I know you never soloed. You guys had solo buddies, but try to put yourself in the mindset of the authority figure you looked at air traffic as or the person talking to you. Would you? I'm glad that you mentioned that. Okay. That's a huge part of this. That's a huge part of this whole dynamic. One the controller is, has in their head, student pilot making mistakes, doing the wrong thing, doesn't know where the item button is. You know, how could they possibly get to the point of soloing and they don't know this stuff? Okay. Student pilot thinking controllers don't do no wrong. They don't make mistakes. I'm somehow must be doing this stuff. You know, like none of this is making sense. Imagine that. Imagine that feeling. You're, you're like, I did it. I planned this route. I'm aimed towards a lake. I'm using all my piloted skills that I was taught. Right. This is fun. And this controller is just like making me feel like I'm lost. Am I, am I lost? And they come in and just completely blow up the whole thing. And now you're left wondering like, well, they know. They must know where I am. I'm on this code or, or what? I like, but at some point reality is really tough to overcome. It is really tough to overcome eventually. But see your brain can lead you down this path that once you believe a thing, everything else that happens must then fit into that framework. You have to somehow get yourself out of being so set in believing that this is used for the, for the pilots. We don't have as many controllers that listen. So it won't be as useful for them, but it's useful for you as pilots to hear something like this and understand when this starts happening and that that's not making sense at all. They're saying things you're not doing. You know you're not. This is a thing you could, you could just say, Hey, is it a stolen tag? The first clue, the first fork in the road where we turned the wrong direction was the ident part. And we don't get an ident. We need to recage our mind right then. Okay. You're telling me you're pushing an ident. I'm not seeing it. Am I seeing it somewhere else on the scope? Sum out. Yep. Where else am I? Is it somewhere else? A position asking the pilot, those, these would have solved the problem very early on. The ident thing and having the pilot say position. Where are you? If the controller said say position. Say position. Okay. And she says, I'm 10 south of this lake. And the tag that he's looking at is not there. It's like 30 miles southwest of the lake. The other direction. Hmm. Okay. Well, is there a tag 10 miles south or a target 10 miles south of the lake? There is one. Okay. Ident again. Now it's identity. Now you see, oh, now I have position and an ident. Now I see what's happening. But when you allow everything to become part of the narrative that you've constructed in your brain, that this has to be the plane. It has to be. Recovering from that is, as we can see here, is almost impossible. Yep. Without a third party. Yeah. Okay. Person who said, I see them on my screen. I just passed the plane. We just saw them over here. And we're up by the lake she said she was close to. Yeah, they're just behind us and he's looking at the scope going, huh. Like it takes a third party coming in and going, well, you guys are talking crazy. This is crazy. You've, this is not. I see them. They're over here. I don't want to forget to talk about being underneath the Bravo shelf. It doesn't matter if you're student pilot, private pilot, instrument pilot. If you're on VFR underneath the Bravo shelf without a clearance, that is this overlying, literally and figuratively stress of navigating in this area and the shelf is big. So there has to be running through her brain. I don't want to bust Bravo. I don't want to get in trouble. Am I lost? Why are they talking about my instruments being wrong? Are they wrong? Like you don't have the experience set to say, right? I'm right. They're wrong, but you did it. The student did it. They stayed strong. No, this is what I'm doing. This doesn't make sense. Yeah. Stay calm. I hope your instructor saw this. I hope the facility watched this afterwards. It's a great lesson. It is. For everybody to stop making assumptions, realize this can happen. With the ADSB beacon button we have, what do we call that? The beaconator? Mm-hmm. That button would have also solved this problem because the controller would have seen like, wait a second, this doesn't even match this. Huh. See, now that's another thing. That's another little thing that is playing in here that they removed. You remember, call sign mismatch. They took it out. Controller said, I don't want to look at that anymore. It's too many. Too many people are doing that. It's too conf... It's annoying. This flashing thing on the data tag because the NAS call sign doesn't match up with the ADSB call sign. Right. In like, can it keep, you know, life flight missions or pilot and pause where they have a different call sign, care call signs, they don't match the N number and that was frustrating for controllers. But this does make a very good case. Mm-hmm. Because that would have happened here. It would have never, yeah. It would have never occurred. Right. They would have had every confidence that that pilot was in a different place because of the wrong tag. Right. What else do you want to talk about on this one? We said the pilot was awesome. Great job. We said the controller was confused. We defended them. Yeah. I... Like I said, we would give them a hard time, but it could have happened to anybody. And that's... If controllers are being honest, they know that. That that's true. Just like recent events that have happened, we realized that a simple mistake that anybody can make it, anybody can make a mistake. Sometimes the consequences for that are nothing and sometimes they're not. Sometimes it's a little bit more serious. And that is part of what can be tough about this job. When you look at an event like this or something worse, you just realize, man, that could have been me. It could have been me. You try to do... You try to put things in place to prevent that. Just like this conversation we're happening now is now a thing where if this is happening to me in the radar room, this conversation is immediately in the forefront of my mind. Oh, yeah. This doesn't make any sense. What's going on? Where is this plane? Really? But to the student pilot, really well done. Really well done. To maintain your composure, I wouldn't have. I'm so upset. The words I used to describe this pilot were composed, confident, and compliant. Yeah, just kept doing what they were asked to do, despite it making zero sense. But questioning, you didn't just blindly follow the instructions. You spoke up, you said what was on your mind and that other pilot certainly helped paint the better picture for the controller. It's difficult for us to get back into the student pilot mindset, but I'm telling you, this was a huge event for them. To get through this the way you did speaks volumes about your training and you'll be a better pilot for it, I think. So good for you. I want to say kudos to the career track pilot, the CFI I'm assuming from that aircraft, also training that spoke up, that is maintaining awareness of what's going on, on the frequency, on their ADSB, things that are happening around them, enough to realize, no, that plane that he thinks he's talking to is not where they are. This isn't adding up. It's not adding up to me. I think most pilots probably wouldn't have spoken up. Agreed. They're not going to speak. They would be wondering, if I say this, is the data I'm getting correct? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing too. Or they're just not paying attention at all. They're worried about their airplane and that conversation happening, just waiting for my call sign. I'm underneath Bravo or I'm in a Bravo. I'm doing what they say. I'm not getting involved in that. That's a good point. Because that was the turning point of this event. I do appreciate that the controller apologized. Right. And admitted that it was something on their end, it was a stolen tag and they apologized a couple of times. Student pilots should not be asked to do some weird stuff. Now, turning at half standard rate, I would qualify that as weird. That is super weird. I would not expect a student pilot to know what a standard rate turn was. Right. Like wait, what? Depending on where they are in training. Now half standard rate? What? All right. Anything else before we close that one out? Oh, okay. Very cool. Thank you for sending that in. I said I would find out in the middle of the feedback. Supercaster sent that to us. Thank you for providing us with an awesome video and open up a great conversation. Moving on. Music. Feedback time. Feedback. I'll get number one. Okay. I feel like you're on top of your game there with contributing to the controller side. I really like that. Thank you. I appreciate it. Emperor, captain, Bravo, Sierra. Hello, AG and RH. I hope you and your families are doing well. I had something interesting happen on my last flight that raised a few questions. I will be concise and clear on this unlike some other feedbackers I know. I was departing from south of the Gritz Bravo going to my home airport, which lies to the northwest boundary of the Gritz Bravo. We were via far and we picked up flight falling. We were cleared into the Bravo in the corridor as I've done many times. It's important to note that when you get cleared into the Gritz Bravo, you will be vectored to put you where they want you. There is a narrow VFR corridor that goes directly over the east-west runways at rectangular Gritz Bravo that we've talked about several times in the past. We've set it on the show. Over above an airport, busiest airports in the NAS might be the safest place to be is directly above them. Yep. There's no traffic. They're on the runways. The Gritz approach was running west operations and I happened to notice out of the corner of my eye an ACME jet was in a place that I wasn't used to seeing commercial traffic. The flight has made a very early turn to the north heading at or near the departure of the runway. I was watching this plane as it continued its climb and it was about 500 feet below us when it started its turn to the east as I was traveling north. I pulled my throttle back to slow enough to cross in front of me. He was still below me as he was crossing in front of me so wake turbulence was not a threat. I felt like the separation wasn't quite what it needed to be. I went back and uploaded my flight to a program called Flystow. We're not going to watch that track but I'll talk about it in the narrative here. After getting home, I loaded it into Flystow based on the data. The 757 crossed in front of us, 0.8 nm laterally and 400 feet below us vertically. Turns out that 400 feet was actually 500 assigned altitudes. The GPS altitude on Flystow is not corrected for pressure. We're going to assume they were 500 feet apart the whole time. Based on the audio, thank you to another supporter. They were executing a go round. That's why I was seeing them in a weird spot. They were executing a go round at Windshire. They were on the Gritz Tower when they were told to turn north and then turn 060. Then they were handed off to the Traycon land, audio attached. We're not going to play the audio. It's kind of secondary to the conversation. Also Gritz approached, why can't I say that? They advised me Skyline 123, traffic ahead 11 o'clock, eastbound 1 mile, Boeing 757 advised it in sight. I wanted to say the traffic in sight and the guy in 34 Charlie needs to comb his hair. It's just stuck with traffic in sight. Here are my questions. Oh, look, you got the corridor out. Thank you for that. That's a good flight path there you have on Skyvector. Cool. Here are my questions. How are coordination handled in busy airspace specifically with go rounds? Is it by LLA? It seems weird that the tower would be vectoring airplanes in the Gritz approach airspace if in fact that approach or that was approaches airspace. Let's talk about that real quick. We're on tower and triad I found that we do a little bit. This is unique. This ownership of airspace for local is sort of unique. It's not everywhere where tower claims the surface to 5,000 on the departure end. It's really radar letting you say that, but it's their airspace, right? Yeah. Walk us through that. It is airspace delegated to the tower. Right. Okay. So you have a go round. You turn them right to 140 and they're climbing to 3,000 feet and approach maybe working at 3,500 feet of overflight. In this scenario that could happen every day. You're going to eventually ship them to departure, but what are your responsibilities for separation at that point as a tower controller? Yeah. I can't climb them through that 3,500. If I'm talking to that plane, yeah, I am responsible for not putting them together. Okay. What's the separation requirement now? We've got 9 far jets. Oh, 500 feet. Okay. Target resolution. Okay. In Bravo, it's a little bit different. We need target resolution 500 feet or a mile and a half. In the case of the flystow playback, you never had the mile and a half as you merged. You were about 0.8 miles apart. Like you said, you had the 500 feet though. It seemed super odd for you to be getting that, but the tower was doing what they were probably by SOP with the Traycon doing. Hey, we climbed to four. We turned this heading. This is our getaway. This is our getaway from the airport heading. It doesn't conflict with any of our departure SIDS and there are about 1,000 of them at this airport. We're going to put them on a vector and then we're going to ship them back to you. It seems weird to you that towers vectoring them, but they have to get them moving in a direction before that handoff is affected. They probably had to call departure and say manual handoff because they weren't expecting to talk to this airplane. They have no idea who it is. Then they ship them. Any further on that question? The first question there? The coordination? Yeah. So it could just be one, it's not a normal situation. Who knows what other traffic is happening? The tower calls says, hey, this guy's going around. I've got him on the heading. I've got him on the SOP headings climbing to three or whatever he's doing. And Radar says, hey, put him on this heading. So now he's in a really, he's definitely feels like he's in Traycon airspace. Tower still has him. Tower assigns a vector, which is what you hear. But that really, that vector was from Radar. Yep. And tell them this and then give them to me. Right. Via coordination. So it's not unusual to have a plane that's not in your airspace that you're handing off or have taken a handoff and the controlling sector assigning that via you through coordination. So. Agreed. Is it possible that the Grinch Tower had me on their scope and knew that it was going to work out? I haven't memorized the separation requirements for the go around commercial traffic versus a VFR general aviation traffic in Bravo airspace. Is it visual? Is visual all that's needed? When they asked you to report the traffic in sight, they didn't need that. They had their 500 feet assigned altitude for the jet was 4,000. You were already assigned 4,500 and that could be very well spelled out in the SOP or L.A. with the different facility. They're not in the same building there. And everybody knew it would work because that's what the rules say. I'm going to climb to four and you're not going to have a VFR climbing through my airspace below 4,500 feet. So I know it'll work because it's procedurally how we do it here. But you just happen to be at the right place in space to see a 757 really close and I can appreciate how that would feel weird. If you're used to flying over that airport and you're like, whoa, I'm used to seeing planes come in from the west or the east and land and depart that way. What is happening here? I can totally appreciate that. The controller shooting traffic was probably because they had a limited data block or now they could be the same one you're talking to that's being vectored back to final. They probably had to talk to three different approach controllers just to get back into the final airspace. And there's going to be a feeling that they have to issue traffic just because. Not for the purpose of affecting any separation, but you're getting close and you're 500 feet apart vertically. I also like issuing traffic when I... Now, you mentioned this in your feedback. I was in a Bravo. They assign you an altitude. They assign you a heading. This is a great time for the controller to remind you, hey, I gave you four. 4500, like 15 minutes ago. I need you at that altitude, traffic 11 o'clock and less than a mile, so 757 at 4,000. It sort of reemphasizes to you the importance of maintaining that assigned altitude. Because for us to keep this legal separation, you have to keep doing what I told you to do a while back. Great point. Yeah. It's a really good insurance policy. The controller is saying it politely. That is a great point. Yes. Thanks. Yes, I like that. Because that is exactly what would be going through my head. Hey, I assigned you a hard altitude, 4,500. Usually we do like at or above. At or above 4500. And now, instead of me saying, hey, this is why I assigned you because of this 4,000 jet, I'm just telling you that they're there. Yeah. And it's a way for the controller to say, I'm aware of this. I want you to know I'm aware of it. When you see this plane that looks super close, we're all on the same page. This isn't a surprise. Yes. I know what's happening. Yep. That's really good air traffic because the traffic call was not required. Right. At 0.8 miles is a long way. Traffic didn't merge. They don't have to issue it to a prop. Right? Yeah. Go to all around. Well, let's see. They got to issue it to the other guy. Yes. To turbojet aircraft. Yeah. When targets are going to merge though, they didn't merge. I will say this about that facility. They are extremely conservative with their traffic calls. If you merge, they will give it to you, but they are not wasting their time given non-merging traffic calls all day long. If they did, that's all they would do. They'd have to have a separate scope for traffic. Just for banking traffic calls. I'm trying to nicely say we issue too many traffic calls. Yeah. They're not on the necessary. Yeah. His was informational. I want you to know I'm on the same page. I see him too. Stay at 4500 feet and everybody's going to win. Okay. Excellent, Bravo Sierra. You get the last one. Number two. Number two from SuperPastor Delta Papa. Defense, your Kilo conversation in OB-427 reminded me of a night flight out of our local class Charlie when a Skyhawk called up asking for flight following to Kilo XYZ. The controller on frequency who is a friend of mine keyed up and replied something like, you guys have to stop saying Kilo. We're in the middle of the United States and you're in a Skyhawk. I know you're going somewhere in the contiguous US. Now we have to start this conversation all over. I told him later I was going to make him a T-shirt say no to Kilo with a circle around Kilo and a line through it. New OB T-shirt idea. Cheers Delta Papa. Yesterday. Yes. Yeah. It was yesterday. Maybe four aircraft in a row off of Co-Factory Flight School aircraft going to the North-ish back to their base. Okay. Four of them, three of them said Kilo. One, when they take off and they're going northbound and I see your call sign, they all end in the same two letters. Probably know where you're going. Okay. I'm not going to assume. I will wait for you to tell me. But I certainly do not need the Kilo and I don't need, I probably don't need the three letters. Just say the name of it. Just say the name. The controllers within 100 miles of their airspace, if it's like a three letter, if it's some whiskey 12 Charlie kind of thing. Okay. Yeah. I don't know where that is. But if it's three letters, I probably know where it is by name. I know where it is and I know what it is by name. You don't have to tell me the identifier. And you certainly don't need to put the Kilo in. I don't know a single controller that likes that. Tell us what is happening on the keyboard, why that's frustrating. When they said they had to start over again. Yeah. We haven't reviewed this in a while. Okay. I call up. I'm the guy that's coming off of that airport. Okay. Okay. November three, four, five. I'm over Martinsville. I'm going to Richmond. But I say Kilo, Romeo, India, Charlie. What have you done with your fingers? I started typing in the K, right? Because I'm thinking that's part of the identifier. Now, if you didn't say Richmond, but see you said Richmond, so I already know it. I'm dumb. I didn't mean to say that for our argument's sake here. I meant to say Kilo, Romeo, India, Charlie. Oh, see, and that just right there, it already is irritating me. Stop it. Because we don't type it in. That's why. It's superfluous. It's just extra information. Very big word. So the order, call sign, origin, airport, destination airport, type aircraft, requested altitude. When you start with it backwards, I can't type in. I don't get to go fill in the block. It goes in order. And this archaic DOS, you know, era keyboard and system of typing, I can't go back and change. So I have to wait. Or if you don't tell me where you are and you just start out with it and the last thing you say is the first thing I need. You're stuck. And now I don't remember anything you said. That's why he's saying, okay, we're just going to start over. And that's why so many times if you call up and just say it concisely in this, no extra words, you say, November one, two, three, off of Martinsville, going to Richmond, Skyhawk, 5500. Stop talking. And just say nothing else. The controller's mind will be blown and they will say, wow, that was a great call up. That's the best order. Really amazing. And the angels will sing. Yes. Light will shine down out of heaven. Yeah. The show feedback was from Julia Bravo, Supercaster Julia Bravo. I found us initials. Thank you. Show topic. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you, Delta Papa for awesome reminder that we do need a new shirt. Stay tuned for that. We're working on that. And I like to say no to Kilo. And I love the Prop Hat Cat. I just did a recent thing on our keyboard and the dysfunctional keyboard. Yes, he did. It was really funny. It was, why are these buttons blank? Why is the space bar so big? It isn't. That video made me realize there are several, like over half of the keys I've never touched. Oh yeah. Why are they all there? They're for whatever, but. For what? Did I tell you about this maintenance keyboard in the back room? You found a query to keyboard. Yes. I did this on the show. Can't remember. Share it again. I'm in the maintenance room adjacent to the Treycom. They have a scope back there for doing maintenance functions. Techop stuff. It looks just like our scope. It's just a scope. Except the keyboard. That's at the scope. It's a QWERTY. It looks like a regular person's keyboard. I said, what is that? That thing? He said, oh, that's our keyboard. I said, no, no, no. Does that work on my scope? I said, yeah, you guys just didn't want this. I said, whoa. Hold on. Who are you guys? And I want that. Go plug it in. Why is Trader? I don't know. All right, we do our best to respond to support feedback and let you know when you will be on an upcoming show. Age of Anything before the chat. I do not. Closing out, episode 433 of Opposing Bases air traffic talk. Romeo Hotel. And Alpha Golf. Goodbye, everyone. Drop. Opposing Bases is a listener supported ad free weekly podcast. The views expressed on the show do not reflect the opinions or official positions of the FAA or Penguin Airlines. Episodes are for entertainment purposes only and are not intended to replace flight instruction. To get on time access, bonus content, and full archive access, join the crew at opposingbasis.supercast.com.