Zach Cogen on Elite Recovery, Rehab, and Mental Resilience

Oh, guys, the TheraBody Pro Plus series saved my behind. And let me explain to you what I mean by that. A few weeks ago, I had FluA. The body aches were so bad to where I was waking up every two hours on the dot. Couldn't stay asleep for more than that. Extreme neck pain, back pain and leg pain. And I finally started using my brain. I said, hey, I have this amazing technology in my house. And I had my wife run that TheraGone on my shoulder blades, my neck, my traps, anything you can think of my lower back. And then I threw on the Jet Boots Pro Plus. And let me tell you something, guys, the pain instantly started to go away. But the most important thing that I want to stress is TheraBody just isn't for recovery when you are beating your body up in the gym. It is for everything. If you need to sleep better, if you need some relaxation, do yourself a favor and use these products. I was able to sleep. And because I was able to sleep, I started getting better. My symptoms started going away. And I recovered within a day. But I was down for four to five days total. And I just got to tell you guys that what an amazing technology. So our listeners through March 31st, 2027 can get 15% off their first order. Now this is US only. The only thing that you need to do is go to TheraBody.com, pick up a TheraGun Pro Plus or some Jet Boots Pro Plus and dive in, guys. Use this technology to help you recover, to make you feel better and even sleep better. Use code word determined and remember this is US only your first order TheraBody.com code word determined. When I hurt my shoulder at LSU, it was like, if you are not ready in eight months, we're going to cut you. And I did that. But my recovery to performance wasn't there. I was never the same guy. Return to performance means that you're getting to a level of function before you even got hurt to begin with. Let's say you're a top 10 player in the league, we're getting you back to that top 10 level, not just to a level of an athlete in general getting back on the field. The Jet Boots are my favorite piece of recovery modality out there. It feels like your legs are lighter afterwards. It feels like you're able to kind of go and your legs aren't as heavy. I also like that there's that LED infrared light in there too. That is a big component of it as well. That LED light that gives a little bit of seat, much like our infrared sonas, so you can get some of the benefit of the infrared lighting that's in there to help with some increasing circulation through the area. This is for the audience. If you're going to use them, war shorts. What's up guys? Welcome back. You're going to be listening to the recovery segment sponsored by Theravadi today. I have with me, Zach Cogan. He's a head of rehab for the New York Red Bulls and he works with athletes on recovery, injury rehabilitation and is an overall really amazing professional. And he's done a lot of things specifically getting these players back on the pitch and getting them ready to play. One notable comeback player of the year, Lewis Morgan. He was at the head of rehabilitating his hip injury a couple of years ago. And Lewis came back a lot stronger because of this guy. So Zach, welcome to the show, buddy. Sean, thanks a lot for having me on. Excited to be on here and shed things recovery and rehab and wellness and just excited to talk to your audience. Yeah, man, thank you for coming, man. It's I'm really excited to have you on. We haven't had someone like you on yet. And it's been something that I really wanted to do because I truly feel recovery and injury prevention and rehabilitation is applicable for everyday human being as well as an athlete. Before we get into all things, Zach and all things Theravadi and recovery, walk us through your story, walk us through the journey of how and why you got involved in this type of work. Yeah, so as a human, I grew up as an athlete, as a lot of people in my profession, my field and area, getting on this track just because we were once there. And typically we're athletes who have had injuries. So I myself grew up as a wrestler in high school and college. And I battled injuries all the time and I was exposed to the world of rehab and particularly physical therapy as I'm a physical therapist by trade. And I saw the changes that it can do, not just for the body, but also for the mind and how you can teach somebody independence and in building robustness and in trying to take care of their bodies. It just helped me to say, hey, this is what I want to do for a living. This is pretty damn cool. So true and then on, it just got me on track, went to physical therapy school. I ended up wanting to specialize in being a practitioner for athletes, particularly elite athletes. And I ended up doing a sports residency after that. I moved way away from family to not just grow as a professional, but as a human as well as a whole of the first time I was really away from family and home. So I lived out in LA for about five, six years. Did my residency moved into my fellowship. I worked with UCLA athletics. And then on to that I worked as physical therapist performance PT at XOS, which is a sports performance company as globally worldwide at work with elite professional athletes as well as tactical athletes as well in our military and armed services. So I spent a few years with XOS and then I needed to jump over into soccer for football. However, we want to classify it. I think I'm where our audience is from. So I moved over to DC and was with DC United as a head of rehabilitation for a few years and then me being from New York originally. It was time to come back home. So I accepted a role with near rebels and currently had a athlete rehab with them. So it's really a long list of things to say that I'm a human who likes working with people and connecting with the actual human behind the face, understanding what makes them tick, understanding what motivates them to get up in the morning to go out about their days and to do their jobs. And just that happens to be that these people have to perform on a field as their job, as their occupation. And teaching them how to take care of their body because that's their livelihood. That's how they make a paycheck. That's how they bring food home to their families. And being able to help in that and see them get back onto the field and perform what they love doing is what I love to do. So that's just in a nutshell a little bit behind what I do, why I do it and where it came from. Well, I love it, man. Thank you for that recap and give an audience a little context behind your background on what you've done. What I find very impressive is just the trajectory of your career. Again, a lot of people want to be a physical therapist or head of rehab for elite athletes and not everybody gets to do it. It's not everybody's plan. So what was it about you? It doesn't mean like you said you did do some things with UCLA, mean with the DC United and you've been involved with some elite athletes and some elite athletes within the military as well, you know, that's a big deal. And I don't know if you've ever taken the time to stop and say, man, I'm really actually doing this because there's probably thousands of people that would love to be in the position you're in. So congratulations. I appreciate that. Sometimes I guess I don't really sit back and look at that. You know, it's something that I'm kind of just buried in the weeds of it and you go about day to day. I guess when you're in it, you really just view them. They're just everyday people. I mean, when you get to know these people first name basis, you know, that mob handshakes in the morning and, you know, they're just like any patients as if, you know, when I was working in an outpatient clinic in the beginning, beginning of my career. So when you're in it, it just, it's a day to day. But at the end of the day, it's something special for sure that, you know, it's, it's pretty cool. I'm definitely going to relate to that because, you know, in everything that I do, I talk to a lot of people. And at the end of the day, everybody wants to know what was that person like? What was that person like? You know, what's it like interviewing these types of people? And I'm just, I don't even know how to answer the question because I become friends with them. You know, and I realize and learn that they, they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like I do and just like you do. And having deep conversations with them is actually enjoyable. And I don't ever stop to think about like, wow, did that just happen? Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to remember sometimes when you're washing somebody on a screen that, right, they had a family at home, right, they have three kids. They didn't sleep last night because their child was up crying in the middle of the night five times. And I said, it's, it's just like all of us, even though you're watching behind, behind a screen. So yeah, it is unique, but again, they just teaches you that we're all, we're all the same, we're all the same person. Absolutely, man, absolutely. I love that. Let's jump in, man. Let's talk about, you know, recovery. Let's talk about rehabilitation. And I want to start with, excuse me, just the lowly person, right? People like me in the audience here, I think it's super important to really focus on not just injury prevention or recovery, but, but proper warm up as well. And some of the things that I've been utilizing is a lot of the pro series from TheraBody. Like I have the Jeb Boots, right? Like those things are sick. And, you know, after a leg, they'll throw them on. And there's like no wires, you know, and nothing like that. And there's a lot of different LED light therapy in there, you know, the pneumatic compression. And it really helps me. Like I do legs yesterday and I pounded them. Like today, I recover quicker and I'm not sore. So I'm able to perform better. Have you seen anybody or have you used those things? Those Jeb Boots? Because I'm going to tell you right now, man, that is a pristine recovery process. Yeah. So I'm not just going to try to plug it right now, but I will say that that the Jeb Boots are my favorite piece of recovery modality out there. Not just for elite athletes, but for myself and just common way person, right? Again, real humans, compression, pneumatic compression, just as an overarching theme and principle in the literature and research has found to be one of, if not the best recovery modality out there for multitude of reasons. So particularly the Jeb Boots, I gravitate towards. And I mean, it's subjectively, and I know you know this, it feels good. It feels like your legs are lighter afterwards. It feels like some of the soreness has gone after a big like that. It feels like you're able to kind of go and your legs aren't as heavy and sluggish. So that is my go to for myself, but also for other people when people ask me these types of questions or what's the best thing I can do for my body? What can I use to enhance recovery or kind of get myself going before the day starts? And that's usually my go to. So yeah, it's pretty interesting. I did a leg day yesterday, like I said, and then I hopped on the moving stairs for 30 minutes and then hopped in the sauna for 20, got home, put the boots on. And I never really noticed how light my legs feel afterwards until you actually mentioned it. Like I just kind of go to my day and I'm like, okay, cool, I feel better, you know? Yeah. And it's, that's, that's the big thing is like how do you feel like the subjective part of it? Forget the objectivity to all the studies, but it's also how does it make the person feel as well? Because our mind is a huge trick that we can plan each other and we can plan ourselves. And you know, it's a nice mediator or modulator to how we can make ourselves feel at the end of the day because pain is also subjective thing. So what we feel matters the most, like physically. And then that drives our emotions as well. So that's something that's just nice that can give a little bit of a boost to the human body, just like feel better in general. Yeah. It's a, for the audience though, you know, because the word or the phrase, pneumatic compressions, they may not know what that is. Could you give them a little bit of background, what that actually means? Yeah. So pneumatic compression is essentially utilizing some sort of modality or devoid of vice or some sort of garment, something that will give compression to the skin or the layers of tissue in our body. And essentially what that does is it helps move fluid and it's a bit fluid dynamics, right? So pressure gradients were trying to flush fluid flush lymphatic drainage, which is kind of our, almost our sewage system in our body, trying to flush, almost toxins and build up and things that kind of just stagnant and get fluid moving. Especially in the morning, we're laying down, we're not moving, our muscles aren't pumping. You know, we're not getting as much fluid moving from head to toe. So it's a nice thing, especially in the beginning of the day, to get things kind of moving. So compression pneumatic compression using, like, it miss or graded types of amounts of pressure in different parts of the body to help shunt and move fluid up and down. That's pretty cool. And, and thank you for that because that word or that phrase pneumatic compression, people like, wait a second, you know, what does that actually mean? So thank you for explaining that. And also like that there's that LED infrared light in there too. That is a big component of it as well. Absolutely. And you know, that LED light that gives a little bit of heat that helps to aid in, you know, infrared, you know, much like our infrared sonas. So on the skin, so hint hint, like skin to skin contact, try to have that on in so you can get some of the benefit of the infrared lighting that's in there. But to help with some increasing circulation through the area. So it's an all encompassing. It also has vibration in it as well, which helps with some of the fluid dynamics and moving some fluid and tissue around. So yeah, it's a nice all encompassing feature in there. So for the audience, if you're going to use them, we're shorts, we're shorts, so you can get that in for the skin. So well, thank you for that and given the audience a background on what the boots can do and how it can aid them in recovery and, you know, feel less sore, quicker and recover better. Hey guys, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to slide into our recovery segment brought to you by TheraBody. What an amazing technology that TheraBody has and it was founded on a really cool story by Dr. Jason Worsland. It was founded on pain. He got into an accident and had this extreme pain in his arm and found that percussive therapy really helped. So he created the very first version of the TheraGun with the Makita drill, just a pilot and test to see if his pain could be relieved by percussive therapy overall and surely it was. Now birth to the TheraGun and now TheraBody who has a multitude of products to help you recover emotionally and physically and some of the products even help with stress, meditation and better sleep and just overall better wellness. And when I had Dr. Jay on the show earlier in 2025, it really spoke to me because his platform was founded out of a physical pain and the determined society was founded out of emotional pain. And so it felt natural for us to partner up. So here we are an official partnership with TheraBody and I want to talk to you about some of the products today that I've been enjoying that I think you need to understand and know more about so you could potentially implement them into your life. And I'm not going to get into a big deep dive of the actual science and everything like that. So I'm just going to give you some anecdotal information based on the products that I'm using and that my wife is actually using to that is helping us out a great deal at home because a great thing about these products guys is you can use them anywhere. You can use them in the gym, you can use them at home in your bed in your living room. Hell you can even drive with the TheraGun Pro Plus in your car and use it on your quads, use it on your arms, whatever that is. The first thing I want to talk about is the TheraGun Pro Plus. I bring that in my gym bag every day to the gym and when I'm warming up, I use it to warm up. I put it on my arms, whatever body part I'm using that day, I activate those muscles and what I find is I'm able to move my body a lot quicker and I'm a lot stronger on those days that I do actually bring it and utilize it. I just think it's a great way to understand your body and the connection between your strength and your muscles and being warm and being able to perform because it's one thing to go work out but it's another thing to perform while you're doing it and the TheraGun Pro Plus helps me do that. Another thing that I really truly enjoy is the Jet Boots Pro Plus. These things are wire free, there's no hassle, there's no quads, there's infrared LED light, there's that compression therapy and I've been having bad pains in my ankles both of them actually for about a year and I don't understand where it's coming from but when I started using the Boots, religiously after a leg day or after a cardio session, I throw those Boots on and I find myself a lot looser afterwards, I find myself lighter and then the next day there's no pain in my lower extremity like my feet. The other thing that I really enjoy is that product really helps me recover a lot quicker and let's face it. That's the most important thing when we're trying to move our bodies or we're trying to succeed in life as we want quick recovery emotionally and physically and these products help me do that and they can help you do that as well. One of the other things that I really want to go into because it's helped my wife out a ton with headaches and being able to distract from the noise and our mind and honestly it helps me with that too is a smart goggles. Whenever we feel a slight headache coming on or things are getting really heavy just in our minds just thinking about all the stressors, all the things out there that we can't control, we throw the goggles on getting a quiet place and there's different cycles on there and different intensities of vibrations and massaging that you can either turn it up or turn it down. What I really enjoy is it allows me to focus on what's going on with just me and I think about things and the massaging with the smart goggles relieves either headaches and it relaxes me and relaxes my wife to a point where we can fall asleep better. We are preparing to kind of downshift and shut down and slow down for the evening so I heavily recommend them. The other thing it's really good for is just creating a peaceful time in your day and what I found since using the smart goggles and then the other products is it works for me, it works for my family and I know it can work for you too. So I want you guys to think about things that you are struggling with if it's lower back pain or you wake up in the morning your neck is tight. I'm going to tell you the Theragun Pro Plus will help that out. They have cold therapy on it, hot therapy. I mean think about that. When I open that box and realize that I could have heat therapy and cold therapy and the Theragun changed everything for me and also really made the thing that I hate doing the most is warm up made that very easy for me just by applying it to the muscle group that I'm going to use before I do it and in between sets which promotes quicker recovery between sets. If you're looking to go high volume or to lift heavy weights, I strongly consider that. All these products are there to help you move along in your day with less pain and recover quicker. So go check it out because now like I said, the official partnership has begun and from now until the end of March in your first order, you get 15% off your first order, not every order. So if you're going to buy some stuff, load up there in that cart for that first time and you get 15% off, go to Therabody.com and at checkout, the code is determined. So let me know how you guys like it until then, stay determined. I want to really dive into the story of Lewis Morgan, right? And now, you know, we have that hip injury that you helped them through and the video that you sent me, I paid very close attention to the certain point and I want the audience and some of the audiences are former athletes, right? So let me give you a little bit of background. When I hurt my shoulder at LSU, my throwing shoulder, I was a catcher. I was in a rundown and I dove and I hit my elbow and it just came up and had a little bit of a laborum tear. And then I already had an acromium kind of like just it was hooked so that they had to shave that and then they hit my capsule up, right? The capsule is shrinkage and back then, once they heat that up, it's like you have a 70% chance of coming back, but and I did that, but performance wise, the recovery to performance of what you spoke about, I won't steal your thunder here. I want you to explain it, but my recovery to performance wasn't there. I was never the same guy. Yeah, I'm sorry I had to go through that. It's definitely a tough one. It's a tough one to come back from, especially through throwing athlete when they shrink that capsule up. Your trumps gets pretty tight and stiff and that mobility is super tough to get back. That's a grind. The ball never came out of my hand again the same. Like yeah, like yeah. So I guess to kind of define what those two things are, you know, return to play is defined as something happens and you're able to step back onto the field or the court or the ice or whatever your playing surface is and your sport and competition. But there's a difference between just getting back to being safe to play because that's kind of what it is. And my profession is by job is to make sure athletes are safe to get back on the field, minimizing risk for making sure, okay, you can tolerate the forces to the best of your possibility right now within your body that can protect yourself against contact against all of the motions you have to do. But return to performance means that you're getting to a level of function and just physical performance metrics that you're putting out before you even got hurt to begin with. So you're getting back to a level of let's say your a top 10 player in the league. We're getting you back to that top 10 level, not just to a level of hey, this is a professional athlete getting back on the field or an athlete in general getting back on the field. We need to get the performance level that right there and athletes getting paid a certain amount of money. And that's the expectation as well from the club in front office that they need to perform at a certain level. They need certain amount of goals per year assists. They need to be running at a certain speed, a certain distance, play a certain amount of minutes in a game. So there are all these different things to be objective about. But at the end of the day to look 10,000 foot is this is that we look the same. And before they got hurt, they look at it different. And a lot of people say that when you watch now I'm a big NFL fan. I don't know if you are as well. But when you watch, let's say football and someone is coming back from an ACL tear, you always hear that it takes, you know, not just someone comes back from nine to 12 month rehab, which is typical for an ACL reconstruction rehab. Someone's coming back up there in ACL that I used that because that's just an easy example. You know, a lot of the times they don't return to a prior form and chapter two years, which is actually pretty, pretty typical because it takes a little bit of time to get some of that power and robustness back. So just to give you an idea that this and explain to the audience, there's a difference between the two. And when you see in your watching sports on TV, this when someone comes back, it not just physically, but mentally as well. And I've brought up mentally several times in this emotionally as well. It's not easy. I mean, you went through you went through a surgery, you were used to playing at a certain level and you said you never got back to a certain point that you wanted to go to and I'm sure that was that was health frustrating. So it lives in these people too, especially some of the top players in the world and that stuff, that's tough. You know, for me, and I want to touch on this too because a lot of the athlete recovery, there's even someone that is, you know, in more forties that used to be an athlete but is wanting to still train and when injuries happen and you're not able to move or do the things that you used to be able to do. Even on a broader and in a bigger, more, actually more pinpointed scale with these athletes, when they don't come back, you know, to that level of performance, it can really impact their mental health, man. How do you work with them through that? Because not just the return to play or return to performance, but the initial, like let's use Lewis Morgan as an example. I mean, for months, this guy would, you know, be injured and try to come back and injure it again. There's a big mental issue that can happen with athletes there, you know, because their worth is tied to how they perform. So how did you, how did you work with Lewis on that and what are some of the things that he did to come back mentally strong as well as well as physically? Yeah, I think the best way to start with this is that I'm lucky enough that I work in a setting that's what call like a high performance department where I work alongside multiple professionals that are like-minded, that have the best interest in the athlete in mind, who are in the medical field and performance field. So I work alongside a team of people that provide a service to the athletes on our squad and our roster. And you know, as a collective, we were able to, you know, tap into him as a human. You know, we have performance therapists. We have, or rather say mental performance therapists. We have athletic trainers on staff. We have performance coaches on staff, dietitians on staff. So we have this conglomerate of professionals that we all trust each other's expertise to support the athlete in the best way possible. And I think that's number one that's the biggest thing to highlight that this is a team effort. So us together are able to, I guess you see somebody every day, six to seven days a week, we're working with these people. And you get to know them on a different level and more of an intimate level. And you know their unique character is a what drives them, what motivates them, when to push on the brakes, but when to, when to actually hit the brakes. I'm sorry, when I went to push on the gas, when to hit the brakes, it went to slow down it a day. And I mentioned this before, I wore all people, if you got into a fight with your girlfriend the night before your wife and you're not feeling it today. Recovery is, let's say you have a six month recovery. It's a long, that's a decent window where you have a lot of time to play with and to schedule things. So if you're not feeling it for that day, let's maximize, because you have to be there mentally to be able to attack that day and get the most out of it. So if you're not there that day, then that's fine. Now we pivot and we re-schedule things and you listen to the athlete, because the athlete just, just as much as myself or some of the other people I work with, they're, they're, they drive the shit, right? They drive the car, right? This is their body, their livelihood, their professional. Where they're supposed to support them. So you know, they're, they're essentially running the show as well. So there's such a huge integral part to this. And for however hard this is, it's building that trust in the beginning for them to trust you and to tell you when they're feeling it, when they're not feeling it, when they're struggling with things. And I think that's the most important thing is just connecting with the human in front of you. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That right there is so important. And I want the audience to really key in on that. It's focusing on the human being. I can remember when I was coming back. It was like, if you're not ready in eight months, we're going to cut you. And I was forced to come back sooner because I didn't want to lose my position. I didn't want to transfer. I wanted to be at LSU. I didn't want my release. You know, so, but I didn't feel like that was a very humanistic approach that put me in a fighter flight situation while trying to get better. So I didn't have that luxury of, I don't feel it today or, hey, my arm hurts a little bit more. I can't really throw 120 feet at 80% today, but I was consistently, you know, extrinsically pushed. I kept hearing that voice inside my head of, if you don't get better and you're not ready for fall, you're going to have to leave. And I didn't want that. And so the fact that you guys are really dialing into the human being, I think is a very important aspect because without that, you don't know when to push, like you said, and you don't know when to put on the brakes. So I just think that when we're dealing with athletes and when we're dealing with certain injuries is to understand the person and what drives them, but also what can temper them on days and then just adjust the plant accordingly. 100%. I take for granted sometimes how many days a week I see these athletes, I'm working with someone six, seven days a week is not of norm in my profession. I typically in an outpatient environment, a physical therapist, this seeing somebody for, anywhere from one to three times a week in your typical, you know, insurance based outpatient facility for orthopedics. And they only have a script for three months, not for six to eight months, sometimes with what they need. So, you know, I take for granted enough, but also as a practitioner, me being able to do that, I, it's important for me to take advantage of that time to really like take the necessary steps of the role of coaster of what rehab should look like. You have big days, you have small days, and you need those days looped in. It's not just go, go, go, go, go. There are rest days in there. Region recovery days where we utilize our recovery modalities. And that also helps, right, the psychology of the athlete too, where they're not just on the grind every single day and makes them feel like they have some time to catch up with themselves, not just physically, but mentally as well. Yeah, it's difficult, you know, you have to find that balance, right? It's like, do I really feel like I can't do this here, is it just I don't want to? And so yeah, right, because I mean shoot, dude, that happens in my daily life more than I care to admit. Like, I'm like, I can't do this today. And then I have to ask myself, is it that I can't or I don't want to? And if it's the latter, then I do it anyway. And if I can't, then I adjust, right? How, how do these elite athletes like Lewis Morgan, how do they filter through that information? Right? And they ever get honest with them with you and like, hey, I just don't want to. Now, I'm glad you asked that because I was just about to say that it's also our job to make sure that if they say, you know, I'm not just not feeling it today. Me understanding why they're not feeling it today and say, too bad, we're getting after it today or we're doing this, this and this or maybe I'll hit it away from this if we make sure to get this done. So there are levels to how you can kind of manipulate a session, but really understanding like what's driving that? Is there something actually going on or is it time for me to just kind of step in and say, nope, we have to get the stuns scrunched on whatever it has to happen? How do you diagnose that you personally, right? How do you counsel the athlete? What are some of the questions that you would ask to kind of see where the root of this I don't want to or I can't is coming from at that given time. Yeah, and similar to what I said before, they've had with your night, what you do last night, knowing is there something personal going on outside of here? Are they, do they have some family issues going on? Did they just have a recent break up? Do, you know, there's so many things that go on in this person's life that, you know, could be weighing on them. So just conversations. Yeah. People conversation and it doesn't even have to be like a line of questioning like ABC and D. I want to ask three, these three questions, but the more you talk to these athletes and more you talk to these people on a day to day, the more you'll understand like what kind of mood they're in. What's driving them? Well, okay, they're probably like this because they had a tough day yesterday or maybe they're like this because the gym work was too much or maybe they're like this because they really slept like three hours because their baby was up, get them up all night. It's just you're the nuance of knowing and kind of matching, maybe connecting the dots, not necessarily these three questions. This is how it has to happen, but more so kind of just guiding it because you also don't want them to really feel like they're being like questioned, want them to feel like I care. You can understand. And I'm listening to them. I'm listening, active listening. I think it's important. I think anything, you know, can be solved with an actual authentic conversation, right? So we were talking to an athlete, especially an athlete that's always used to getting peppered with questions, whether it's in the media or whatever that might be, having a common understanding and just by having an open conversation of, hey, what, you know, talk to me, what's going on? You know, was it a rough night and you know, or tell me about your night? Well, then they said, hey, I didn't sleep and I ate something and it didn't agree with me. Or, you know, like, hey, my baby was up. I didn't sleep. Then you know that this is probably something that you need to pull back on a little bit today because rest is important in recovery, right? People talk about seven, eight hours of sleep, but if an athlete gets any less and they are athletes, specifically like a soccer player that is constantly running and it takes a lot of energy, especially if they're injured too. And not enough sleep, there's the recovery process slows. Now, how in your mind, like, do you ever have sleep conversations with them or how important is sleep with your athletes? It's probably the most common question you'll hear me ask an athlete within the first five minutes of talking to them at the beginning of the day is how do you sleep less than it? Right. So, I mean, sleep, I mean, I can't talk enough about sleep and nutrition. Those are the two, those are your two money makers right there is sleep is is so vital to your recovery and what we do, our bodies do so much when we sleep. And also the fuel we put in our body matters so much. So if I can narrow down two of those things and really we can kind of dive into sleep as well, that is the first thing that I ask every athlete that is getting onto the table in the morning and I'm about to work with is had you sleep last night. So I can be kind of a protagonist almost, but it is so really important to know what the night was like for them. I think I think sometimes I can even just tell. Yeah, you just tell. It was someone like walks in and blanks there's like, yeah, you didn't sleep well last night for sure. A lot of times too, like you mentioned like nutrition, what you fuel your body with matters and what you fuel your body with does impact your sleep. Right. I mean, it absolutely does like where when I eat a certain way and there's no one recipe for everybody, right. There's a lot of most direction. No, carbs aren't bad. You know, eat your starchy carbs. It's okay. Some people say no, stay away from those. Just eat fruits and vegetables. Like for me, like it's very specific. I feel better when I am eating a high protein diet with a lot of fruit. I just I enjoy it more. I'm never really hungry. If I implement, you know, rice or, you know, multiple things like that, I can feel a little bit off at times. So for me, I just know what works. And so I stay in those guardrails, right. But I just think that the most important thing for athletes, like you mentioned, is the sleep, but also proper nutrition, you know, do and this is a quite this is a kind of a funny question, but I have a reason I'm asking it. I think non athletes have a very hard time managing what they, managing what they put in their body every day. Do some of these athletes at times go off track nutrition. You have to recount to them and let them know like, hey, this is why your body's not recovering. You, you are eating this and now you have inflammation and now you have lack of sleep. Your cortisol levels are higher. And now your information is even greater because you're not getting proper rest or nutrition. Do you have to have those conversations with these high level athletes? Of course, similar conversations. And I'm also going to defer to like the experts in this answer is typically when there are issues with nutrition and diet that are almost a little out of my scope of practice, right. So we have people on staff that are experts in that field too. So I'll also just defer to our dietitian to discuss nutrition and eating habits and meal planning and in those types of things. So I guess it's a luxury to be able to do that. You know, when people ask me those questions, yeah, I can give only so much information to you that, but then they come to a point when they probably will ask me a question that maybe I can't answer the right way, but there's someone that's better that can give them a way, way different and way more clear and concise answer that's going to help them a lot further. So that's that's typically my default and what I would say in that is, but I would also say that for the average person is, you know, there are there are people who individuals consult with all the time and diet and food and nutrition. And you know, when you have those questions, just defaulting to the professionals to help with that because, you know, but I think you hit it spot on is that it's so person-specific. You know, I don't think that everybody's body is, you know, I mean, we have people who are, you know, gluten intolerant. You know, we have people who are black. So I was like, everything is just different for everybody. So it's, it's hard to even just give a general blanket statement of, you know, you need to have this to make sure you can have that. Yeah. So just to kind of circle around that, there's a couple of other things for elite athletes that we focus on, host operatively, particularly, you mentioned protein intake, but it's also supplementation as well, most operatively. We're looking to get athletes back in time. You know, this timelines, we have to need, we have to make sure that we get muscle growth on time. We have to make sure we get muscle strength and power back. So we need to make sure that they're also getting these supplements, like creatine and protein and collagen and good tissue healing, things that are going to support the body from micronutrient and just molecular level. So it goes a little deeper when you're talking about athlete to perform at that level, but at the end of the day, the professionals know the best. So it's really defaulting to them. I would like that, you know, you're, you're really leaning on the different branches of support that you have within the organization of the New York Red Bulls, right? It is a team, right? You're helping these athletes get back on track. And if you don't know the answer, you're able to pivot to the, the dietician, right? And that helps the athlete truly feel like they're supported because coming back from an injury like, you know, Lewis Morgan had, that is a grind. You know, I, I believe in a video I watched, like some days there, he was doing four sessions. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he was in a machine. I mean, that's a lot. I mean, that is a lot on the body, right? I mean, it is a tremendous amount of worry and tear physically and mentally. And so when I'm, when I'm watching this video and seeing his comeback story and the role that you and the Red Bulls played in it, one word came to mind, obviously, we, well, two words is determination and discipline. And that's what this show is based on, right? So in order to come back from an injury like that for the athlete, there has to be a high level of determination and discipline, but also, also with the staff, like you have to be highly determined and highly disciplined in order to get these elite athletes back to performance, right? It's a big deal. How do you see those two words playing a part in an athlete recovery? But any nets? I like this. So I'm going to default back to my roots as a wrestler and just talk about discipline determination just because I'm not sure if you're familiar with the sport of wrestling, but I will talk about it until my last day is on earth. You know, I am the human I am today for a lot of reasons, but one of the main reasons is because of the sport of wrestling and the grit and the grind daily, the determination, the weight cutting, the atmosphere of what it's like competing just you in front of a bunch of people and there's no one else to help you. It's not a team sport to a certain extent. There's just so much about the sport that taught me about those two key characteristics and character traits. And that helped me just push me in my career as a human just to the nest up because there's a lot of adversity that we've had to run through needless to say. And to continue to do that and to be there for these guys and to wake up every day and getting in early, making sure I'm motivating the individuals through the four sessions of the day. It just takes another level of determination and discipline and hard work. And you know, at this point in my life, it just feels a little effortless almost. It's just kind of part of who I am. It's part of me as a human and it's something that I enjoy. It's that I enjoy putting in energy to help someone achieve their goals. It gives me an endorphin release. It's just anybody, I'm sure, who comes on this show has had something in their upbringing and their childhood and there as they've come through their profession that has taught them a certain level of discipline and determination. So everybody has their own, but it's something that I don't even think twice about anymore. It was interesting because I look at fighters, whether it's UFC boxing, wrestlers, anything that's weight-based, you have classifications. The ultimate discipline to being in that sport. I mean, I could imagine you in high school and you in college, trash bags sitting there with a hoodie on, went around the wrestling mats to make weight, spitting, nod drinking and a certain amount of water, like a day before you have to be at an event. That takes a high level of discipline, dude. To me, there's nothing more disciplined being like, okay, I'm not even going to drink water for the next six hours. That is so difficult, man. You're smiling because bringing yourself back to those days. I'd rather not. I'd rather not. No, I mean, it's you against yourself. You're almost fighting. You're like, you're fighting your subconscious. You're fighting yourself. You're fighting your brain. Yeah, it's just getting comfortable with discomfort is the best way I can describe is it's not comfortable. You get comfortable with that feeling and you learn to deal with it. That's a lot of what these guys, you see these, everybody's cutting, who is cutting weight and whatever, what even even the jockey, or a jockey's cup weight as well. I mean, if the weigh in for that, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. What? It makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. You have to weigh in for you on the horse. It's there's there's just a certain level that you're you get to and you have this reaction and you know, you break down a couple of times, but you pick yourself back up and you learn from it and your body learns from it and biologically learn from it and you adapt. Yeah, so it wasn't easy in the beginning of my time doing it, but as I kind of got used to it, it's, you know, I don't really think about it. I don't think about it anymore. It's just kind of used to it. Do you feel like determination and discipline is a thing that you are born with or skill you acquire? That's a great question. I think that I'm going to say it's both. I think that there needs to be a certain software in there to build on and I think that even if it's like the most miniscule of my nude of something that to have that sensation of wanting to push past the limits that you're comfortable with, that's kind of how I would define determination and discipline is pushing past our limits physically, mentally, emotionally and being able to compound that and multiply on that and build on that and become more robust. So I'm going to say both and I truly feel that side of my gut and my soul. I agree with you 100 percent. I really truly do. I think everybody is born with a certain amount. Like you said, I love how you said software. That's pretty cool, man. To think of that hard-roar software, whatever you're wired at, right? And it's typically, you know, genetic, bread like, and then you grow up in an environment and you start to learn like, hey, if I want XYZ, I have to do it. I have to do all these other things and have to do them consistently, right? And then you build up that callousness to the hard work, right? I'm 47 years old, dude. I don't like working out five, six days a week, but I know if I don't do it and if I don't eat right, one, I'm going to look like hell, two, I'm going to feel like hell and then through I'm not going to sleep very well and then I can't leave my family. You must go, when I go through all that, the decision to do things that I said I was going to do, even when I don't want to do them, I still complete the task. And I may not be 100% every single day. There's days where I'll go in there and like, my body hurts like hell. I don't want to work out today. So I'll just go in there and I'll do one set. And then I'm like, okay, cool. Then I'll do another one. And I'm like, I'm starting to feel a little bit better. And then by the fourth set or the first set of the second exercise, like I'm fully engaged. And I think a lot of people lay off before they can get fully engaged. Yeah, I mean, I can relate to that for sure. There have been so many days I felt that it's interesting. You say that, you know, you do something, you dip your toes in the water and it's almost like getting into a cold pool. It's like, I can't do this. And then as you get in, you kind of get used to it. And then finally, when you're all the way and it's like, okay, this is fun. But I'll even play devil's advocate. You know, for a living, I work with people to try to induce and promote adaptation and change, right? Whether it's strength or tissue resiliency or healing or whatever. You know, I challenge anybody who maybe feels like they don't even have an ounce of it to try to change because we'll all throw another really nerdy and big term neuroplastic. We're all neuroplastic. We all have the ability to change. Our brain can change and grow new neural pathways and things like that. We are neuroplastic and we can change. So why not learn and teach ourselves discipline and hard work? Right? Why not? So I think, you know, challenging the norm of my initial gut reaction, but as I'm listening to you and I'm thinking you in my own head and like, yeah, we should be able to change and become more disciplined and determined. And I have no issue with saying that either. So just have to throw that back out there because we are humans and we adapt and that's what we're good at. We're really good at adapting and evolving. Yeah. I mean, I think I make it my mission every day. If I feel a certain way or I'm weighed down, you know, mentally and emotionally and I don't want to do something, I really focus on just doing it. Because to your point, if I can create a new, a new neural pathway of when I'm feeling so bogged down and so heavy, emotionally, that I can't even begin to fathom doing something physical or completing a work task or whatever it is. But then I actually do it. Like you're create is just like, it's just like lifting weights. It's just like anything physical. You hold that muscle over time through repetition and consistency. And I think that that is a key to most people's success is like doing the things they don't want to do when they don't want to do them emotionally, but they still complete it. Yeah. I see it every day. Mm-hmm. We'll live it every day. Yeah, I mean. It's, yeah, it's the, you're hitting the nail on the head. That's really what it is on the day to day. And it's, it's a grind being a human. It's a grind, whatever job you got to do and get up in the morning, like dog days, same thing every day. But, you know, some people, it's easier than others. But then in the day, we all got to try to figure out a way. Yeah, I want to ask you a specific question because, you know, in my line of work, I absorb a lot of energy, right? There's days where I have one interview. There's days where I have two, sometimes three. You know, today happens to be a day where I have three. I want to have three different human beings that I'm absorbing energy from, right? And I have to take care of myself, like I really have to take care of myself so I can give my all to you and to whom ever I'll to the audience. So it hits the audience where it needs to. You have the same demands. You have the same demand. You have the, you know, you have pressures alike, right? You have to get these, your job is to get these athletes back to performance, right? How do you take care of yourself? Because if you won't take care of you, you can't take care of your athletes, you can't take care of your wife, you can't take care of your kid. I am still at this point in my career. I'm still trying to find out the best way possible to do that. And I'll probably be able to see. Full transparency, light on the line for you. But what I will say is the further I go down the road as a physical therapist and the further down the road I go in my career, the more I start to learn how important that really is and the more I try to start to do for myself, the further down I go. So little things like waking up earlier than I typically would in the morning to take a shower to eat some breakfast to get a small workout in to get myself going before my day really starts and no one, everybody's up and before my family wakes up before I even get to work before the athletes come in in the morning and they want to kind of get things done and have my alone time with Zach and check in with Zach before all of the chaos starts. So little things like that, waking up an extra hour and a half earlier than I typically would. I do relate to that brother. Like I really can. Like when I rift over in the morning, I get it done early. I've got that big thing out of the way. But during that time, I'm actually able to check in with me because I can't do that during a day. I can't do that when my kids are home. I can't do that when I'm visiting, you know, with the whole family and in my wife. Like I just can't. I have to be able to dial into me and it's almost like when I'm in the gym, that is my active meditation. I learned so much about myself in those moments. It doesn't pouring into me. And I just think that it's super important for everybody listening and watching on YouTube to really dive into what's going to give you the best insight to yourself. And how do you execute that consistently? That's how you win. I'm going to say it better. It's just we got to we got to love ourselves before we can love anybody else. And we make sure we take care of ourselves or else we won't be able to take care of everybody else. So it's huge. And I just the more I go on the more I learn how important that is. That's awesome. That's awesome. But you're doing amazing work, man. You know, you're getting athletes back on the field. You're taking care of yourself and your family. And you've done so many amazing things in your career. Couple more questions. You know, based on that, what makes you different? Right? Like what? There's thousands of you out there, right? And you have been so successful with your athletes and the organizations that you've been in. What do you think the separator is for you? It's really, it's another really tough question that I sometimes I don't necessarily think about a lot. The first thing that comes up into my mind, a lot of people will give this answer, but it's, and I think if you ask anybody who knows me in my life, family or friends or colleagues, coworkers, they'll say the word passion. And that drives just almost everything for me in what I do in my daily life, whether it's for my family or my friends or for my careers is passion. And by being passionate about what I do, it makes me care that much more about all the little things. Have I checked all the boxes before the athlete moved forward and in their rehab process? And I make sure that I can safely say that they're objectively safe enough to do this next phase of rehab. Have I assessed them like really checking back in what I said, have I assessed them? Well, instead of just doing, you know, half of what I need to do and kind of just getting done with the day and going home, they really care. And that passion drives how much I actually care and the extent at which I will go to make sure that the athlete no longer feels pain and perform an optimal level and maximally shoot a ball again from 30 feet out of goal. Can sprint at their max speed and maybe if not faster because there's also a passion that I get a hit of dopamine and endorphins when I get to see that person back out in the field doing what they love. And there's also a selfish aspect to it too because that makes me feel good to see them do what they want what they love to do and why they get up in the morning, what their passion is. Yeah. Is getting to play us or for a living and what they love. So it's this this theme of passion and I just I love to see that and I really do and I think that's kind of the best way to say it is because I can say you all the technical things and my hands on skill and my exercise selection and whatever and it's all driven by this passion and this fuel and like I just love helping people. I love seeing them succeed and it just it makes me feel good. Yeah. You know, it's you say passion passion drives action. Like that's the thing right like in order to have action or take action and something you have to be passionate about it especially at the very beginning. But look man, I really appreciate you dude. This has been an awesome conversation and you know after spending the last, you know, 53 minutes with you, I can see why you're so damn good at what you do. You take great pride in it. You work hard for the athletes. You have a overall mission of providing passion into the process with your athletes. And so, you know, man, there's no secret or no surprise of what, you know, seeing you do what you've done and all the success you've created, man. Sean, I appreciate those kind words. No, it's been awesome. It's my pleasure to get to share my stories, share some experiences and some thoughts with your audience and with yourself and yeah, this was fantastic. Yeah, man. Thank you very much. How do you find you and learn more about you, man? Yeah, I mean, I'm only active on Instagram. That's my only social out of Mac, so it's going to be at the Sports Physio underscore. Yeah, so you can find me on there. Any questions? Feel free to DM me. I try to be as reachable and as possible and try to answer everybody as I can. So yeah, please reach out. I have some comments on there, some exercises and follow along with some of my stops along the way, but I love it. Hey, guys, it's a cool page. Check it out. I follow them on book, my accounts, real cool page, road human doing great things, supporting athletes and the preparedness to get back on the field. They call it the pitch and soccer, you know, so I'm learning every day, ladies and gentlemen every single day. But thanks again, man, and for the audience, please share this episode with an athlete or someone that's struggling with some recovery, whether it's physical or, you know, mental recovery. And don't be afraid to check out TheraBody.com. Look at their pro plus series, the jet boots, the Thera gun, and they also have some great sleep aids with the sleep goggles that way you can get your rest, meditate and all that kind of stuff. You go there and you decide to buy something, use code word, determine for 15% off, valid through January 1, all the way to the end of March, 2026. And with that being said, guys, I love you and thank you. And until next time, stay determined.