"All Up In The Macabre" (w/ Sarah Paulson)

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Hey, hey, hey, or should I say, ho, ho, ho? It's me, Matt Rogers. And in the words of another Christmas icon, it's time. I'm back with my new nationwide tour, Matt Rogers Christmas in December. Yes, it's time to remember when Christmas is. I'm hitting the road all of December with Henry Kapursky and the whole band performing my album, Have You Heard of Christmas? Along with a bunch of other little surprises. So if you're in LA, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Philadelphia, DC, New York City, Boston, Toronto, Chicago, or yes, Orlando, Florida, I want to see your gorgeous ass. Go to Matt Rogers official dot com or head to my Instagram at Matt Rogers, though, and hit the link in my bio until then. Stream the album, get your look together and get ready to deck the damn halls at a venue near you. Christmas in December, you in my heart. XOXO Santa Boy. Look, man, oh, I see. Oh, my. Bowen, look over there. How is that culture? Yes, goodness. Oh, yeah. Las Culturistas. Ding dong. Las Culturistas calling. I was just touching base with you before we got on because you and our guests share something. You're on the real SNL. She was on the fictional Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip. She played a Christian sketch comedian. I'm halfway to that. I just have to be witnessed. Yeah. And then I'll be there. One of these days. So I'm we'll see you. What's your background with Christianity? Do you? OK, so we are we are on this ride. We're off to the races. I'm a confirmed Catholic. Get this. You got you were confirmed. I went all the way through. It my parents. You know, you don't talk about it. And then I got I don't talk about my Christian. It was not Greek Orthodox. No, I was Greek Orthodox. And then we moved and my parents were like, you know, let's just be Roman Catholic because it's basically the same. And so then don't tell the pope. Then, you know, don't tell him and don't tell him about us. Don't tell him about us. His opinion is rule of culture. Number eight, I don't want to know about us. What does the pope want to do? What are the pope want to one of your Chicago shows back in the day? To be like, hey, I knew I knew I said that face. It's like when Taylor Swift recognizes someone in the crowd and it's the pope. Honestly, he's probably a Taylor fan. He's probably a Swift. Isn't. Anyway, my confirmation name, it was between. This is so my life, too. I was choosing between Christopher and Blaze. You already have one of the Apostles names. Matthew, Christopher, too. I stayed. Blaze. No, I didn't pick Blaze. Blaze, I could have. I.S.C.Z. or Z.E. B.L.A.I.S.E. That is the there is a very French Saint. Blaze. Oh, that's right. People don't know this. And he was the saint of I believe fire. I'm making it up. I don't think there is. Yeah, Saint Sebastian. Just picked a gay name. Speaking of names, our guest is. Carrington Lane. Carrington Lane. Well, that's a very dynasty coded name. Esquire. Esquire. Yes. Then I when I got on the Wikipedia for the show and I read the first of all, the names of the real actresses in the cast was one thing. And then reading the character names really blew me away because Kim Kardashian will be playing. Laura Grant. Esquire. My name is Alora Grant. I'm your lawyer. Oh my God. Hey, you made it. Meet my friend Alora. You've met Alora and you turn it. Someone who looks like Kim Kardashian. You go, oh, that's the definition of overstimulation. What is Alora the Saint of? Hey, guys. Okay. There we go. It's fun background. Fucking all's fair. Fucking all's fair. The show. Yeah. Made in a lab and the Ryan Murphy lab, which is one of the best labs for us. Yeah. You've got our guests. You've got Kim, Naomi, Yana, Judith, Nisi. Miss Liz Berks. Miss Liz Berkley. This is this is a dream. This is a dream and a half. It's a fever dream that I cannot wait. It's going to be on Hulu. You're all going to be watching it. Fourth, our guest. Tony winner. Emmy winner. Culture award winner. Culture award winner. I'm sure it's something we've got a lot of categories. Icon 400. Honorary. Yes. Figure of great. Renown. Talent, renowned and more. We are super gagged and more to have the one, the only. Sarah Paulson. Looking. I can't dress like Amelia Earhart today. I did. Explain the the. It's just Celine. It's the new Amelia. It's a new Amelia and I'm just, you know, representing it. You're representing it. Yeah. It's like a person who's more I'm a terrified flyer also. So this is like not. It doesn't work together. I think it's in Congress. But that's why it works. Oh, we were saying like the looks that were being turned at the premiere was just, I guess, the just like showing us into a new world of what red carpets can be. Yes, especially if Kim Kardashian is your costar. Because what happens is Kim sends someone to do a little walk. Siwu goes and takes a video of what the carpet looks like comes back and Kim is like, like this. Whoa. Yeah. Like where's the lighting? Where's the thing? And so when we were all standing there looking more ravishing than we've all ever looked. Yeah. And we saw these pictures and we were like, what is the story with this? And it's because Kim went and dealt with the lighting. So we were lit all from below and above. Like the Oscars doesn't have lighting like this. No. It's like, you know, and then she went and made sure that we had it in Paris and we had it in London. And so. So you're privy to the Waxiwu video. You've done you see the video? I have not seen the Waxiwu video, but I was told that Waxiwu happened. She gets the info and she's like, mm-mm. Yeah. No. And I just, I got to say, sign me up for that. Sign me up. Yeah. Sign my face up for that. Like, honestly. If you could just follow me around like this all day long. The glam factor was incredibly high. I was like, who is that looking at my own face? I was like, who is that? That's you. It's like, it's just me with really excellent lighting. You don't ask yourself that question very often, do you? Who is that? Because I don't, I mean. You're a great chameleon. And I can look like different things. You will end a trip once for a spell. Yeah. One of the greatest spells of my time. I love that spell. That spell was like really. Alakazoo. Oh, Alakazoo, Wigglywoo, Boom, Linda Trell. It was, it was like one of my favorite. I like a peg leg and a black tooth. That's like what I care about from an acting standpoint. Like, does, do I have a, you know, sort of hump in the back? Yeah. Have you played a pirate yet? Like, today I'm playing a pirate. A little bit of the air in the skies. Today I'm the pirate of the skies. I was looking for like, Amelia went down hard and like was. She did. I think she did. Yeah. We can confirm at this point. Like, Amelia went down hard. I think she's gone. Yeah. She's gone. I still think we can find her somewhere, the plane or something. But I digress. I think we should do a big, gay, modern, hunt. Hunt. Oh, I was going to say funeral, but let's hunt her down. No, but we can also get the right minds. I think we've like been on the wrong track. Like we don't need the aviation experts. We need some like gay people. Gay people. We need a Laura Grant. A Laura Grant. Yeah. Carrington Lane. Carrington Lane. I love the story of the experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced experienced Mononam. 100%. It's amazing. What can you tell us about Carrington Lee? I love your dynasty coded thing. Isn't it Dynasty? It's got it. I mean, I don't think Ryan and I ever discussed this, but it was a foregone conclusion to me that this was Alexis Carrington nod. Because this is just like, and I am playing that person on the show. I am your, you know, Esquire, villain Esquire. It's giving antagonists. She's giving antagonists. She's given out for blood. She's given revenge till she dies. She will be revenging. Because essentially these ladies started their own law firm. They leave Dina Standish. They leave the great Glenn Close. Go off on their own, fly the nest, and they don't take me with them. And I am the greatest lawyer in my opinion. And then also Glenn Close's opinion. Like I was, not Glenn Close, Dina Standish's opinion. I was the star of the thing, but I've got a bad attitude. I see. And so nobody wants to be around. And so then they start throwing firm and they leave me behind. And when you leave this girl behind, she's gonna come for you. Yeah, she's gonna come for you. Oh. So basically it's that, but it's basically like a little person who was injured and now she's out for blood. Great. You know, hurt people hurt people. We hope to see her hurt very badly back and forth. You are gonna see a lot of hurt and then hurting. Yeah, people's husbands, I don't care. Fuck man. Yeah, it's gonna be so good. Let's just go for it. Delicious. I mean, I'm getting to that age now where I am thinking about how my own abandonment issues of calcification, because this is not something I've thought about until my thirties. Yeah. Abandonment is, she's a motherfucker. She's a motherfucker and she really, some people retreat, some people go all in in terms of like how they're gonna recover. Some people's calcification around the original wound means they can no longer function or let anything in. Some people become like really desperate for some attention and won't let people go that they should let go. We're three actors here. We're three. Or you become three desperate attention seeking freaks. Speaking of desperate. Oh wait, so I think, so definitely the first time you hit my screen was Studio 60. And I remember being like, who is that? And I think many people in the world were like, who is that finally? But you were iconically Lynette's sister on Desperate Housewives, which was really a formative culture in our lives. Oh, I love this. Oh no, I remember you from it. This was, you do. This was a moment in my career where I, not a lot was happening. Not a lot was happening. And then Felicity Huffman, who was a good friend of mine then, is a good friend of mine now. It was like, hey, you know, I think I was at some party with Mark Cherry, where he has a grotto. There was like a swimming pool grotto. Mark's grotto. I can envision this very clearly. It was like a thing. And I was like, there was like a charade tonight. And then I think I got, you know, like a little crumb thrown my way where I could be Lynette's sister, which to me was like. Really good casting. Yeah, it was Carrie Preston, was the other sister. Yes. Elsbeth. Elsbeth. And also she on True Blood, that is an underrated performer. That's correct. Carrie Preston's been giving underrated performances her whole career. And she is. Her husband too. Yeah. They're just so good. So good. So good. Actually, you know what? I remember that was like when ABC was like kicking ass and Michael Emerson was Ben Lyons on Lost. And then Carrie. Yes, but wasn't he also doing something else at the same time? He was on the show with Jim Caviesel? Was that, was it? Jim Caviesel. I said it. Christ is in the room. On the Christian episode. Really nice work, strong. But was that true? It was a show? Yes, Jim Caviesel was on some like procedure. Like a CBS thing. Yeah, something. But I feel like he was doing double duty. It was like the time when someone like Michael Emerson could do both. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then his wife was on all the other, True Blood and it was just like a thing. And now she's Elsbeth. Now she's Elsbeth. Completely taking over, not just the airways, but also the commercials. Agreed. Oh, the Elsbeth commercial. The stuff. Berets and scarfs and Elsbeth. I just love it. I just love it so much. You're gonna see a lot of the Elsbeth Halloween costumes. Oh yeah. I think that's right. The other prediction I make is a lot of gladness from weapons. Of course, a lot of gladness at the time. There's gonna be a lot of that. But it could see, but both of those are like colorful women. Colorful women, I just hate Halloween. Right, okay, talk about it. Actors tend to not. I hate Halloween. I don't want you to ring my doorbell. I don't want to have to talk to little people, children. I don't like the dressing up. I'm like, oh God, it's like the one day of year. People are just like, I get to be. Right. And I'm, you know, I understand that I get to do this in my life and I've been so blessed and I'm so happy and lucky and blessed. And all that. I'm also just like, my costume today is me. Of course, I'm myself today. Yep, here's my thing. I hate a pumpkin spice, I love it. I mean, I could go on about this when I've got my minute to rant, but I'm saving something else for bad. But like, I don't want your pumpkin spice. I don't want it. I don't like pumpkin pie. I don't like anything pumpkin. I don't like the color orange. I'm just, it's not my vibe. Halloween's not my time. Sorry. So I want to tell you something. You look at my life of a show girl calling a phone right now. This is not a good time for you. Cause Apple has decided orange is it. I don't like it. I don't like it. So how do you usually get through this time of year? I muscle through it. And I have often worked with wonderful hair and makeup people and they love to do the trailer in the Halloween jam. And there is like, Nightmare for Before Christmas stuff. And like, someone's like, Cobwebs everywhere. Cobwebs everywhere. You come in and you're like, ah. It's just like, I don't know why it makes me so aggro, but because I love candy. Yes. Never been happier about candy in my life. And you famously are in a lot of scary shit. I'm in a lot of scary shit, but I'm the biggest scaredy cat. I don't watch anything scary. Likewise. I don't watch any of those. What are those really scary movies with Patrick Wilson and Vera Farmiga? Like two great actors. Oh, The Conjuring. The Conjuring. I absolutely cannot with a doll, a creepy doll. The Megan's not for you. The Megan's, no, none of it. Yeah. But then you did see, you did see weapons? I did see weapons because I got, I went with my friend Jason Butler-Harner. I went with Jason Butler-Harner and Pedro Pascal, and we went to see this movie and- Oh, Trickster, famous, Trickster, Pedro Pascal. Trickster people. Yeah, he's a famous Trickster. I didn't know. I didn't know what I was, I didn't know. And you felt, you felt- Except for, to me, it's like the performance of the years in that movie with Amy Madigan. It was just to me, I'm like, well, thank God, Amy Madigan is being given an opportunity to do what Amy Madigan can do better than anybody. And she's just a genius. And I'm just like here for an, I want someone to accept an Academy Award for a movie like that. Because James McEvoy and Split, I mean, do we need to talk about like, I mean, like not even nominated. Like what are we talking about? Yeah, 100%. Tony Colette in whatever that scary movie. Yeah, Heratary. Yes. Heratary. Heratary. Heratary. Yeah, I mean, these performances are, they're not easy to do. And like nobody wants to give Ellen Burston in the Exorcist. Linda Blair in the Exorcist. Why aren't we giving statues to people? This is another thing. I mean, I've got a lot of ranting to do, obviously, but I just- No horror movie performances don't get their respect. Horror movie performances, they don't get their respect. Lupita Nyong'o and Us should have been nominated. Correct. I thought Daniel Kluya and Us should have won Alice Williams and Get Out. That was a should have been a sublimination. I think Sinners is gonna get a good showing at awards this season. I think you're probably right. And like, you know, I recently, I'd be going on the Gold Derby. I like to go on the Gold Derby too. I'd be going on it. I'd be going. I'd be going. And so shockingly high Amy Madigan and the supporting actress, like people are predicting it because I think things are changing. They're changing, but also I think there's so much respect for her that predates this sort of genre moment that people are like, oh my God, we want Amy Madigan seen by all of us all the time everywhere. And if this is the, you know, and it's just undeniable. It's also undeniable. And that movie is like a sneaky horror movie. It's not like Blood and Guts horror movie. It's more of a psychological thing. And so you think you're watching, like you've got people like running around like this, you know, and it's like, are you a bird? Are you, do you know what I mean? Like, oh, look, we can pretend it's something else. That is an, this of the, this of the, and also the way that she styled it. Bo and Oa says like, it's charades the movie, like memorable and serrated. I love that. But there, there's a pretty bloody gory moment. And it's the only, it's true. It's the first time in a long time that I've had to cover my eyes at a time. And it's always the gay couple that get it. I know. Remember it too? No, probably not. Cause you didn't see that. You didn't see that. That one I didn't see. But you be going on the gold derby to decide what you're going to do or about what's going on for your friends. Interesting question. Are you like, are you like going for your own ballot and being like, what are people saying? Or are you like, my friend so-and-so is up for it. Are they gonna get it? So basically I, Well, I do remember voting. I always vote for you. But I like, I remember going and the first time I voted for SAG, I really surprised myself cause I was like, wait, all my favorite stuff isn't even what's in the camera. Because we're not, you know, I don't know how many ballots you've been sent, but there are ones that I'm like, what even is it like, you know, they're big when you get to be a nominator. And it's like, I take this so seriously. I'm like a freak about it. I never vote. I mean, if you're a brilliant in something, but like I liked something else better and you're my best friend, I'm still voting for the thing I like better because I just feel like you want to honor the greatness of the performance and not just like your friends. And I just don't, I can't, I watch, or I will not vote in a category I have not seen. Yep. I just won't do it. I take it very, very serious. I want you to look the picture on the eye and vote against him. I did vote against him this year. Who'd you vote for? I voted for. At Emmys? Yeah. It was him. Well, cause he was kind of really, Oh, I voted for Adam Scott. Oh, yeah. Sorry, Pedro. Sorry, P. Yeah, I couldn't help it. It was a performance to me that was just, Of course. I mean, so good. My main thing about Halloween, I agree with you. But my thing is, it's everyone's, everyone's on about fast fashion and stuff, right? It is like the most unsustainable holiday. Yes, that's true. It's like people just wear, I think once and then throw it out. Yeah, they do plus the packaging that it comes in, the plastic and the thing. Oh, forget it. And then exactly. Some dog is suffocating in the corner because they like got inside it. You see where I went, I'm sorry. No, it's okay. Listen, no, it can happen. It can really happen. I don't, I don't follow you for that. I just see the thing is you briefly lived in the macabre there. I did. As someone who like literally lived, you lived in the macabre for years. You're all up in the macabre, title of that. All up in the macabre. All up in the, all up in the macabre. That's a good title of that. Title of the app, all up in the macabre. I did live in it. I did live in it. That's weird. How did you do that? I'll never forget the scene of you in hotel, which is the one I tried to watch because of Gaga. And basically what happens to Mr. Greenfield? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I just tapped out of that. It was so fun. And you were in it, then the scene. I was like watching it. I got to watch it. Yeah. How do you do that? You're on set for it. Yeah, I was on set for it. I saw it. Whatever you're thinking, it's way worse. It's like a giant conical dildo. Yeah. Right? He gets fucked to death. Fucked to death, but with like a real drilling. Ryan. Ryan. You're sick. You're sick, but you know, I'm here for it. Something's in my eye, guys. Whatever, it's fine. You want to text that? No. Macabre. Macabre. Macabre. Let's get on the same Macabre page. But I'm Macabre. Macabre, thank you. I mean, I like, well, yeah. But then people make fun, they're like, oh, Mr. Frenchman, we, we. And I'm like, no, it's just how your, it's a silent arch. It's a silent arch. No, no. Is your first language French? Not technically. You're a Frenchman? No. Born in Australia, moved when I was six months old. So you could say English and Mandarin were the first things that like hit my ears. But then we moved to Quebec. Oh, so that kind of French. Then French was like spoken the most in my life for a while. What? So hard left into English. But you didn't have any sort of like Australian accent? Did you hear the horrible thing? No, that was really. No, I've got a couple of friends and all we do is this. That's really good. And like, we just love to do it. It's great. My Macabre is from New Zealand. Yeah, from South Africa, right? I can't remember. Very funny. Remember. No, it's nor. I love that. Nor. A lot of people said no. Nor. It's really old for me. It's never gonna get old. You know, never get old. But somebody taught me a secret about how to say, and being a really great accent for this voice is to say rise up lights. Rise up. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Is the same thing as saying rise up lights. You say rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. My on rampant Australian is always, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Cause it's an activist you're up for palette. You're getting up for palette going. Yeah, I don't know. Very resonant language. Oh yeah. Yeah. Up the ear. With the question? With the question. Yeah. Okay. But a bit hard. I like rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. What are rise up lights? You know, like just think of the word rise. Okay. Up. Light. Light. What's the favorite accent you've ever done? I haven't really done a ton of them. Yeah, I was thinking that. I don't really get to do that often. I'm usually just like running from a clown or. Yeah. You know. You don't need it as a crutch. Yeah, it's not a crutch for me. I like to live in my Linda Tripp world and my Marshall Clark. I like a wig. You like a wig. Mom really likes, mama likes a wig. Mama likes a wig. Mama really likes, in a way, wears a wig. Mama excels in a wig, loves a wig. The Marshall Clark of it all, by the way, that was, I'll never forget the Marshall, Marshall, Marshall episode. Talk about going to Golderby. I was like, let me go on and go to make sure that I'm not crazy. This is at number one for everyone. Oh my God. That was such a slam dunk, like such a well-deserved Emmy win. After you being overdue at that point. Thank you. By the way, we also saw appropriate. You're brilliant. Thank you. I do want to ask the Kim K of it all figures into people who are like, so Jay Simpson famously. Did you touch base with her about that? Not during it. No, of course. No, I barely talked to Marshall Clark before. I mean, I didn't talk to Marshall Clark before we shot it. So it wasn't until you're like episodes six or seven. I think I'd finished the Marshall, Marshall episode and Ryan's like, if you want to reach out to her, you can do it now. Oh, wait. Now you've basically done it. Even then you hadn't met her. No, no. We had a real drunken night one night after, like I was into episode seven or eight of the 10 or 12. I can't remember how many there were. 10, I think. And then that was that. Like I saw her mole. Like I literally saw her face through a spinning, like revolving door and I was waiting there and I was like, I was so entrenched by mole in my love for Marshall Clark at that time because I was so inside it. And then I remember like seeing like her walk through the revolving door and like, I swear to God, there was a glint of like sparkly sunshine right on the mole. And I was like, holy moly. You had a really cinematic like slow push in on the mole. And it was like, there she is. I can't believe it. And she sounded like she was, no, she didn't. But I was like, I guess I need to. To like, yeah, she was really hesitant about the whole thing. She'd only been like raked through the coals publicly. So the idea of like a dramatization of this when nobody writing about it was actually there. The idea that it was going to be, I kept trying to say, like this is going to be, I really think like the angle. I know I can speak about what the angle is for sure. And I don't think you'll be upset by this. And she didn't really have a lot of faith in that. But then I think obviously at all, at all. I guess it's like, why would anyone who'd been only? For decades, like just, you know, with the fault of losing the, you know, whatever it was was sort of laid at the prosecution's feet. And it just was a mess. And then just always, always, you know, poke fun of and all this stuff. And so anyway, it just, I can't remember what your question was. Well, it was a gold derby. A gold derby. Yeah, a gold derby. No, but it was about Kim because now you're in a show with her. And that was like something that I think like our generation didn't really understand that was the like, totally the inception of the Kardashian thing. I think Chris was really good friends with Nicole, best friends with Nicole. And so that was the real thing. So some of Blair played her. I can't remember who played the children. But just recently Kim told me that there were people who played her on the show. Like her played Courtney and Kim, I think. And they were. Yeah. And I don't remember that part because it was a section I wasn't in. So I paid. You know what I mean? I still haven't seen it to this day. Really? You're not usual of your work? Or I had always watched my work before then because I think I was so still thrilled that like someone was letting me do it. I was like, look, there I am. Yeah. And now I think in particular with that was the first time where I was so obsessed and like deep in it that I felt like if I watch this, I'm going to see every time she was left handed, I pick up the pen with the wrong hand and, oh, God, I'm going to see all the things that are wrong. And so and then when the response was so robust, I thought now I'm really not going to watch it because I don't want to be like, what's the big deal? Right. Yeah. And you also don't want to you don't want to convince yourself of like a reality where they're all lying. Exactly, which is really something I'm very good at doing. I get that. So I just was like, I don't want to do that to myself. Why don't you let this one be. Yeah. Enjoyable and see what, you know, that feels like. Totally. You know, I feel like your work is so perfectly balanced between like something that is grounded in reality and something that that's actually happened in the world, Studio 60, let's say, or People vs. Oday. And then it's also the corollary is like the the can't be heightened reality as well. Like, is this a toggle for you where you have to like sort of change modalities based on what the project is? I don't feel toggly. I think in that maybe is why I'm able to do it. Because the Ryan thing I do think particularly, but even in other things I did, I did this movie called Run about a, you know, child that I've yeah, my child's in that where I'm trying to make my child sick, so she'll stay with me. And even that is a sort of like extreme universe to live in. And I think the horror genre in general asks for a little bit of big swings. And I feel most comfortable there somehow. And I don't know whether it's because my mother called me Sarah Bernhardt since I was a tiny child. And I've always had sort of big reactions to things that maybe are outsized. That's for my therapist, not for the both of you. But you know, I have, I have. We don't know about outside reactions. I think I'm a big, I have a big, big emotional response to things, big and small. I think the register is like it really the pendulum can swing way, way far. Yeah, then most I think. And so therefore in that world, it doesn't seem off, off the or out of the realm of normal to have whatever reaction my character is having, even though an average person might be like, you're really freaking this is too much. Well, it's too big. And I'm like, and it's surreal. We interrupt your regular programming for a very special announcement. Saturday nights are made for Mayhem with celebrity sabotage. Watch me, Joel Dummett, me, GK Barry, me, Sam Thompson and Judy Love. Let's call some chaos. Do not move a muscle. This is no man. I got a correction. Watch out for the falling down. Celebrity sabotage starts Saturday 21st of March on ITV One and ITVX. What I love about the horror genre like on its face is you kind of can get away with anything. That's the other imagination is then explored. That's the dirty little secret to me. So like there are no rules when you're playing a real person. I actually feel most free then because I have all the boundaries have been set. And then I can do whatever I want inside it because I know what the truth is. And I know like I just there are certain facts that are not up for my interpretation, whereas sometimes when you have too much like paint to play with, you know, if you like pour all the paint in the world, like on the ground, you're going to come up with just some weird muddy color. It's not specific enough. So it's like if I have too many choices, it makes my head sort of pop off a little bit in a way that's not helpful. Right. That's why I'm just like, let me play all the real. I'll be the lady who plays all the real people till the end of time. Nothing would make me happier. That would be amazing. Nothing would make me happier. But you're saying with Marcia, it was tipping into a zone where you were like, I'm going to look at which hand she uses to pick up this. Where how she walked. She was a dancer. She had had a little bit of a she was always sort of standing a little bit in first position. There was so much amazing footage of her, which is which was rare, which is like her walking into the courtroom where like they're just hallway cameras, but you don't you're not really thinking about being on camera. Whereas like when I played Nicole Wallace before Nicole Wallace became like a household name in game change, like there was no footage of Nicole Wallace not being performance. Nicole Wallace speaking on behalf of the White House, whereas I could watch stuff also with Linda Paparazzi videos and things where I could watch her move without her like public facing self. And so that was like a real gift because it was like, oh, I'm seeing what you're doing without an awareness of a camera, which where can when can you get that? It's really rare. So it was very exciting to me to be able to have very specific things from which to pull from. And then I felt really free because I knew what the rules were under the veneer you saw. Correct. Yeah. Scrape that tooth enamel off. Got all the way down to the gum line. And I was like, I see what's really here. We've got gingivitis. We've got. Diagnosed. Let's ask the question. Okay. So we've been we've been kind of flitting around it, but Sarah Pulsom, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you? I love your answer. Well, for me, it was the VHS of Oscar's greatest moments, 1971 to 1991. This is a VHS. It cannot be purchased or gotten in any other way. And I had this. I still have this VHS. And Billy Eichner actually also is obsessed with this. And when we had a conversation one day, our heads were both like, I didn't think anybody else really knew about this. And he had it transferred to a disk so that then I don't know how I would do it. Of course you did, by the way. But like as a present, like a wrap present when we were finished with a core story or something. Oh my God. But this is something like I watched so much that it was like how I learned about like Sashine Little Feather and the that whole thing and the nudist streaking across the stage when Elizabeth Taylor was trying to, watching every Academy award win and every show opener and Liza Danly. It was like, I don't think I knew who Liza Manelli was before I watched this when I was like 14 or whatever. And I was, but I just over and over and over again and I can memorize people's speeches and Ruth Gordon's speech. And it was like somehow having a living, breathing, encyclopedia of pop culture moments that meant something to me, obviously, because of my dreams and fantasies in hopes of like one day standing there with that hot little tight ass in my hand. Golden man. Golden man in my hand. Yeah, that it was just like getting to see it all, but it was all just right there. It was like having a computer before you could have a computer. It's like being able to Google every little moment about and what people were wearing. So it was like a mixture of the fashion, influx cultural fashion moments mixed with like political statements that were being made mixed with like the performers of the day and also sort of recognizing that like the world was the performing world was so much smaller back then. It was the same actors over and over and over again, getting nominated in the same. It was just there was not this saturation of the marketplace. And so like there were these 10 spectacular actors and these 10 spectacular actresses and these 10 filmmakers. And it's like things tended to be kind of uniformly excellent back then in that time period. And they don't make some of those movies anymore. But it was a real like, I remember just buying that. Like purchasing that at the video store. I think I rented it and then I went and found it and bought it. And what did you buy? I like, do you remember where you bought it? In Brooklyn, in Brooklyn where I lived. Yeah. And it was just like in the VCR and it was just like on repeat, repeat, repeat. And I do think even as I'm talking to you about it now, like just the Bob Mackey of it all. And that was going to sound like there was just like the share of the shared. One of the greatest things that my best friend and I, Amanda Pete, are always saying she does this whole bit where she comes out in her like early, early acting moment. I think it might have maybe it was two times that are on this video. One of them where she comes out and she's bringing up the reading list of nominees. And I can't remember who she's standing with, but her line, she has to say Marvin Hamel. I'm going to mess it up. Marvin Hamlisch. And she cannot. And she says Marvin Hamlisch, Marvin Hamlisch, Hamlisch. And then she goes, sorry, Marvin. And it's like the funniest, most like she's so charming and so relaxed. And then another time she comes out in a giant headdress after she won. I think she said, as you can see, I got the Academy Handbook on how to dress like a serious actress. And I just was like, but it's like, I got to see like early day share. There's Bette Midler making fun of the way someone is. Too many people are nominated for like one, like there were four songwriters. She's like also known as four on a song. And it was just like, I mean, I just remember all these like really. Oh, yeah, for for Moon. What's the song in New York City? When you get lost with the moon in New York City. The best that you can do. Yeah, it's Fall in Love. Yeah, that's from Arthur. Arthur Steele. And she's just like out there doing her bits. And it's just like, I was just like over was like a tsunami of information. Yeah. Fashion wise. You got to be like encyclopedic about this thing. And I was just like having this knowledge of stuff that like none of my friends knew what I was talking about. We share that because we are we we got really into, I believe for us, it was 97. So there was the Titanic Oscars. The Mollye Crystallera. Billy Crystal. And he comes out and he's like boop boop. And does his thing. He comes off on a horse. He comes out on a horse. The city. First from our city. He comes out on a horse and then he does the thing where he turns it off with the car. With the little car. So good. Oh, good. Was the Academy putting this compilation out? Like who was publishing this? It's possible that the Academy put it out, but I'm not 100 percent sure. But I sure can let you know. Because the thing is, as you're describing this, it's like, sure, like anyone can like look up on YouTube like these moments, but you need something. Somebody curating it. Exactly. And it is curated so and it just goes through and you see everybody's clothing. I mean, I remember having a conversation once with Jessica Lange about the Oscars and fashion at the Oscars. And she said, we used to just whomever was doing my costumes on that movie, we would maybe go to the Saks Fifth Avenue. And we found a dress like that happened once. And another time it was, you know, it's like what it has become. And you can see when you watch this compilation of like somebody just pulling some Holston number out or Holston coming up with. I mean, it's just unbelievable to see the way it changes. Yeah. Bette Midler just said that I watched what happens live because he was asking her about her nomination for the Rose. And she was like, what? I mean, this is back in the day when like you didn't think about what you were wearing. Literally, she went, she was like, I think that was my dress that I still have. Exactly. I went, it was all very new to me. I didn't get the gravity of what it was to be nominated. I enjoyed it, but it's just not the industry it is now. Diane Keaton drove herself to the Academy Awards. You know, it was like that the year she won. Yeah. It's like parked your car under the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. Wow. That's crazy. It's just not, it's just such a different thing now. It's and there was such a purity to it. I know. That my initial love, I'm pleased for myself that I was alive during at a time where I could have had that experience of watching this in a kind of pure way where now it's, I'm not saying it would suck to win an Oscar now, right? At all. But you have information about what it is. I have information about what it was and what it was for people and the importance and the sort of, I mean, the first Academy Awards that were handed out was just like in a room. It wasn't televised and it was like a banquet. Yeah. And it was just to now it's become this like gold derby race to the top. You know what I mean? And like it's wild. Well, this is what I want to say. Like there was someone on Subway takes recently was like, my take is like, if you have a stylist, that means you're not a stylish person. I'm like, well, no. Interesting. And then I think I think that some some some some some cool fashion person. OK. And then and then it was it was 100 percent agree. It was just like, oh, but yes, but I see what you're trying to say. But the fact is, this is just like another element in this whole totally maximalist thing that we have with the words now. And also back then there were fewer things to like a few ways to express it. Like you maybe I could say that that might have been true 20 or 30 years ago. But now there is there's too much stuff. Logistically, there's just like two. Yeah. And like, how would you even know where to begin? Right. Unless you're Kim and you go back and throw the archives and you pull it out. And then she does these things where I'm like, what is this dress? And she's like 1994 Galeano. And I'm like, oh, I'm really new Celine, but a congrats to you. You know what I mean? Like how do you feel, though, about like the six month or seven month Oscar race now? Like I wonder, like as someone who loves it, because we talk about this a lot. Like I'm a person who like, remember it from Premier Magazine used to be able to pull out like Balor Movie Line Magazine, Premier Magazine. Yeah. Remember that? You're like, pull out ballots and like, I just love it. I love it. Yeah. And I'm one of those people. This is off topic, but I'll get back to your thing, which is I don't want you to talk to me at the Oscars party. Like when I'm watching, have you been to that? Yeah. I'm watching. So you go to sometimes to the Vanity Fair dinner, which I've been to many times. It's a real honor to be there. I love it. You're with all these incredible people, but people are talking. They be talking. And I'm one of those people who's just like, I really, I care a lot about it. We're at the finish line. And we're at the finish line and we're waiting for best actress and they're making us go crazy. And it's just like I am, you know, the crazy person who does not want to be talked to during an award ceremony. I want to watch it. People are like, oh, are you bummed you're not going? I'm like, oh, hell no. I'm in my pajamas. It's a big deal. They're coming over after we're going to go the party after. But I just want to watch. Anyway, the six month run to me is arduous. And also, I think sometimes like, I'm not going to say who, who, but I have friends who have gone through this. All of it. And I've had like just the. Just like the thing where you have these hopes, these little twinkly dreams and hopes that then get dashed because someone has entered the race that wasn't expected. That's now won the National Board of Review. And is this weak in your chances because and it's just like. It's like sports. It's like sports now where you're like, well, she won all five things leading up to the odds of her losing is just really. And then you've got men. It just it just puts everything. Holland Taylor, whom I love obviously very much, who's my partner in life and things and all things that matter to me is always talking about like, why are we doing this to each other? Because it's so subjective. What is the greatest and why are you turning it into this thing of this is better than that? All of the things that go into what make a great performance, like there's so many variables from the actors you're working with, to your editors, to the, you know, the movie itself, whether it lands for people, you can be the greatest performance in a movie. If the movie doesn't work, does that ruin your chances? It's like it's such a really psychotic thing to do to little fragile people, like little artists, performers who are not necessarily cut out for the athletic component of it. And I went through this during the Tonys, which to me was the most arduous of them that I had ever been fortunate enough to experience because you're actually doing the show while it's happening. And then, like, you know, your stage manager will sweetly say, we had 10 voters in tonight, like after you're done and you're like, yeah, oh, fuck. And you're like, and then you know exactly, but act two. And I'm like, why are you telling like, and you then start to like figure out whether or not you thought your performance that was like every, like as you get towards the end of your run, you're like, you only have 20 performances left. And like, it gets sort of stolen from you with the worry and the fear that you had an off night or something that just maybe didn't quite land or the audience was quieter. And did that mean that they weren't as into it? And it just like, and then you're like out there in the morning doing your like, good morning, Americas, and you're talking to all the people. And it's it's just you've been on vocal rest normally while you were doing your play for the whole time. And now you're out there now you're on pounds of steroids and you're campaigning. And as much as I was happy to do it, because I was truly it was like the seven year old and me was like, I can't believe this is happening to me. It still was also like, whoo, like, and I also had to deal with my hunger. It made the hunger worse. And I think it's so cool of you to admit. Oh, I wanted it. And I wanted it very bad. And you deserved it. And honestly, and I was going to say, like, sometimes I feel like for both your Emmy win and your Tony win, you were the front runner on, I know, because of Gold Derby. We were aware. Like this episode is an after Gold Derby. Now, but like, but this is a big part of what got me aspirational about all of this is like, and it felt like going to that site, you could be a part of it. And so when they make you the front runner, that feels like almost more pressure. I've been the front runner on that Gold Derby and it's not, and I've not won. That's happened a couple of times, actually. But, you know, so you kind of have to take it all with it. But it does it does make it's like to me, it's like you're a horse at a race and even running the same race and you know, you're doing what you're doing. And all of a sudden they put like a carrot in front of you and then they just keep moving it further and further away. But like you're getting closer and closer and all of a sudden you're so hungry. Yeah. You're like, if you don't get me that carrot, I'm gonna die. It'd be a Polish type of the cookie. It's the cookie. Like, I didn't even know the cookie existed. I didn't know that it was there. And now that I know it's there, now I really want it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like it just it's so funny where all of a sudden it's the possibility of it makes you you absolutely have to have it. It fucks up your expectation and then it's just. He's been nominated five times. Well, the thing about the horse, you've won. I've never won. But the horse is the horse doesn't know the horse doesn't know. The horse has no idea what the race is. The horse doesn't know what the race is and the horse is just running it. But you're now atop the horse. But we know that we know the horse. You know the horse and you were just the horse. But now you're riding on top of the horse. And now you're like, come on, you can do it. And it's like, I'm just tired. I just want to run the race. And look at this. This hoe back here, she's coming up. She's going up. And I got it. We got to keep going. And then it puts this whole little thing of competitiveness around it. That's just not natural. I've had some friends of mine who have been like, oh, it turned dark. Yeah, it can turn dark. Our friend, your friend, I think, Kaplan Chew was on this podcast. And she like made some headlines because she just expressed something very similar to this. She was like, I think, what if we did it where it was just like no cameras around? And then that became a whole story. It's like, oh, no, don't even. This is like someone who has been celebrated by this contraption of this or apparatus. Totally. Multiple times. Times over. Yes. And it's like, she must be coming from a place of knowledge about this. Yes, it's really, I think it just puts a tiny bit of, and I can just hear like people a bit groaning, being like, oh, cry me a river. But it's like, there's something about an artistic pursuit that is worth celebrating the pursuit. Like the pursuit is all. And then when you start putting these other things on it, it starts to become too heavy. Where's the, whatever that phrase, the heaviest the head that wears the crown. And it's just like, you want so much to not care. And then if you do care, you care too much. And it just becomes this dizzying, vulnerable making thing that I think we should normalize a little bit where people just like, aren't you excited? And you're like, I'm scared. I'm hungry. I'm in this dress all the time. I really want it. I feel like I look old and fat and tired and, you know, just, it's a whole thing. We were sitting in that room and, and we loved Mikey Madison and Anora, but when Demi Moore lost, it was kind of just like, the air left. I remember feeling like, I wish we hadn't done any of this. I remember being in the audience when Olivia Coleman won the year of Glenn Close and Olivia Berman thing. And there was an audible sound in the audience. Oh, we, it was a scream. And it wasn't because people weren't excited about Olivia Coleman, because it's one of the great performances of all time, the favorite. But I think this expectation was Glenn was finally going to get her Oscar. Yeah. It was six months of that. And it was six months of this. And then there she was in this gold guy. It was just incredible. And then it was like, like, there was a sound. There was a sound. And I remember being like, oh, I can't handle this. This is just, and you know, I, it just, there's something about it that at the same time, I'm like, I can't wait to campaign for one. It means that, I'm just kidding. That would mean that I was like in a movie. I was proud of and excited to make the end of it. I remember you had deserved buzz for, I think at 12 years of slave for Carol. I mean, you've been in great films. I've been in some great movies. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think is, cause probably nowadays it's a little bit different than, than it was obviously, but is it directors that drive you? Cause you're in one of the great ensembles too. Yeah. I mean, I think the truth is like, I wish I could pretend that I was the architect of my career in a way. Like I don't know about you guys, but I often feel like I just sometimes say yes to something that speaks to me, but I'm not always, I've had conversations with Kate about like, she is really thinking about her director and she really, and I do sometimes, but like, I'm mostly just so excited that someone wants me to be there that if it's something I think I can, I mean, I will say the one thing that I think really drives me is actually the level of terror I have about my ability to do it. And that makes you want to, wow. The more terrified I am to do it, the more likely I am to say yes, but there's more like hemming and hawing beforehand. And fear is a big motivator for me to do it. And it's surprising to me because I'm a little bit of a nervous Nelly, I would say. And it's weird for me to be saying that. Is the fear in you reading what's on the page and what is happening in the script makes you nervous? Or is the fear in that you're reading it and you don't get it at first? No, it's my fear is that like, is what I think it is what it is? Got it. It's like a combination of like intellectually, am I, is this hitting words? Do I get what is desired here? Do I know what to do? I mean, like, I think about this all the time. I haven't auditioned for something in a very, very long time. And I miss it. Because when you walk on a set for a job you've auditioned for, you know that you were there because what you did for this very thing was the thing that they decided they wanted. So you don't walk on and going, oh God, they asked me to be here because of my Marsha Clark performance. And this is a different piece. Or they want me here because of some other thing they saw. And so then I end up going, I don't know if they know what and who it is. And if my take on it is right, I love that feeling of knowing I've earned a job based on what I did for that specific job. And then I feel more confident starting the day. Otherwise it feels really, I don't know. I just, it ratchets up my terror of failing when I have not earned it. Of course. And then I have, because this is a thing that I've expressed to, let's say my team. And they're just like, oh yeah, sure. I'm like, I would love to audition. Please don't ever tell anyone that I don't audition. Like I don't read for stuff. I would love to read for something. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Still haven't in a while. And I almost kind of want to do it for this exact reason. Have you, has this been a thing that you've talked about with your people where it's like they're like, no, but Sarah like. I did say it recently, I feel like, but on some level now, the other part is like everything's happening on Zoom. So it's like, I think about the number of jobs that I got in my early career, which were not many, but when I got them, it was because of my experience in the room and a director going, could you try this? And then I did try it. And they either liked it or whatever, but like, or my little banter with them as I was leaving the room or whatever it was, it happened because of a personal connection in the room. Some sort of thing of, and I remember, yeah, you collaborated. I remember auditioning for the Goldfinch, which was a movie nobody saw. But one of my favorite books, and I got the job, but the director wouldn't cast me until we had a FaceTime, or we were supposed to see each other in person, but we couldn't because he was like, I don't have people on my set. I've never like sat down and had a conversation with. Because what if that survived where it's like not gonna be great for a myriad of reasons, but like that, that was the last time I auditioned and the last time I had an experience where a director was like, it's important to me to have actual contact with you before you're on my set. Just in case, who knows what other reason is, but it makes a lot of sense to me. I think the most important thing that you realize once you start working more is that people just get it and we can move on. So taking a note and applying it quickly is one of the most important things. And it's how you can tell that a person can move quickly and think quickly. Because that's what you need on a set where you're doing, especially television, it's like you're doing 10 pages of dialogue in a day. Yeah, that's why the self-tapes of it all, I just think are a bad way to do it. I don't get how anybody gets a job. I don't know how anybody gets a job. I'm just like the self-tape thing is a nightmare. I don't think I've ever met anyone who liked to listen to the sound of their voice on a voice memo or on a recording of any kind, it's hard. And then just take your face, blow it up on the thing and then be like, deal with it. And it's just really, it's hard. Or imagine being like, yep. Yeah, well there are some people, you know, who's like that, Nisi Nash is like that. It's like all I wanna do is just a little dose of Nisi Nash who just is like, I look great. And you're like, you do. I love it. Yes, I do, but she's goddamn right. She's goddamn right. And I'm like, just touch me a little bit. Just let some of it rub off on me. I don't have that. The Nisi Renaissance? Oh, the Nisi Renaissance. Is one of my favorite Renaissance. Getting on was one of them. I mean, did you guys tell me? I mean, what can a person do to get Getting On back on the air? Oh, I was just thinking about getting on. With Laurie Metcalfe, the greatest actress in the world to me and Laurie Metcalfe, just get it back on now. Yeah, we really love that one. Alex Borstein, I mean. So good. I think TikTok was kind of having fun with the whole, like when they're talking about the translate. Yeah, that was really. Getting On was what happened right before all three of them. Like re-capped off again, because that was right before Lady Bird. Yeah, it was before. And before Basil. Basil. And then Nisi in everything. Everything. That's right, Dahmer, winning the Emmy. Yeah, yeah, all of it. All of it. Oh, I love it. I love a Nisi Renaissance. Do you have a favorite Oscar win? Oh, a favorite Oscar win. It's a big question. Big question. I don't know that I do. Oh, I've got one. I've got one. Mine is a little basic, but it's Julia Roberts and Rockovich. That's just one of my favorite performances. Big movie star performance, but it was a grounded Soderbergh thing. Like I just liked that it just. That she won for it. She won for it. After all of her stuff. God. It's a lot. I'm gonna share this one, because it caught me by surprise, but I loved it at the time. I was like, I can't believe they voted for that. And I'm obsessed that they did. Was Tilda Swinton and Michael Clayton. Oh, she won for Michael Clayton. That's a good one. Do you remember at the end of that movie, when he's walking away from there, because he's told her like, I got you. And she just collapsed. I was like, Fuck yeah, Tilda Swinton. Tilda. Yeah. God, favorite. And Catherine Dina Jones in Chicago, because it's so. Performance. I just love a music. I love when a musical comes through. And just perfectly matched. I guess I'm gonna say Jessica Lange in Tootsie. Oh, there we go. Because it is an extraordinarily special performance. And she should have won for Francis. Now you can't beat Meryl Streep in Sophie's Choice. You can't over that year. That was the same year. So Jessica was nominated. I think is, is it possible? Wait, Jessica, was Jessica nominated for two Academy Awards in the same year? I think she may have been one of those. Meryl Streep won for Sophie's Choice. And the other nominees, this is good. Jessica Lange Francis, to see space like missing Deborah Wenger, officer and a gentleman, and Julia Andrews, Victor Victoria. Right. And did Jessica win for Tootsie that same year for supporting Actress? Let's look 1982. Awards. Best supporting actress was Jessica Lange. So I'm right about this. Thank you. I like my Oscar stuff. Have you been Louis Vartell? No. Oh, I think I have. Oh, you host Keep It. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys have the same recall. I got it in there. I got it in there. And Jessica Lange, I think, the reason I think that performance is so underrated, and I mean, she won an Oscar, so not that underrated, but like in terms of like why people don't necessarily know, it's just playing the girl in a movie like that with Dustin Hoffman being an absolute like next level genius. And to have this sparkly, she was so sparkly. And just like, but it was also the juxtaposition of that performance with Francis, which her performance in Francis is one of the, for me, unparalleled. I think it's really, and Kim Stanley, Kim Stanley, who is my favorite actress of all time, who played her mother in that movie. Kim Stanley was my wallpaper on my phone for a very long time. And there's a very great book called The Female Brando about Kim Stanley. She's really extraordinary. She did so few movies, but she did a lot of stuff on stage. But she's, remember, she calls her little sister in that movie, she's her mother. I mean, it's really- I've never seen Francis. Oh, you gotta get it. I mean, just let's please watch it in the next time I see you. Just tell me that you know what I'm talking about. You will quiz your ass, because it's really some of the best acting ever. Also, they make so few movies like that now. So right after you, Jennifer Lawrence is coming in, and we just watched Diablo. Oh, I can't wait to see it. It's like Cassavetes. Oh, great. It's women under the influence. It literally is. It literally is. So one of those things that's just like, oh. Like who won over Jenna Rollins for Woman Under the Influence? God, this is really- This is 74. That's the year I was born. Oh! Okay, so who won it? That was Ellen Burstin for Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Okay, I'm gonna say something really unpopular. That was incorrect. And that was the year after she had lost for the exorcist. Well, she was excellent in both movies. She was beyond excellent in Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Nobody could be better. She's an extraordinary actress. Jenna Rollins' performance in A Woman Under the Influence is just like somebody walking a tightrope a thousand miles above sea level. It's just not normal. It's an, it's, I mean, I'm not saying that Ellen Burstin shouldn't have won an Oscar. I mean, am I gonna go to jail for not having that? Decades later, she would deserve it for Requiem. Beyond the pale and did not get it, right? Yeah, did not get it. Was she nominated? She was nominated, but I believe that was the year of Helen Hunt. Hold on, wait. Let me see this. Wow, so this is when it gets so crazy. I know. That's so, and this is why Holland's point is to be really, really taken. Truly. How can someone measure that Alice Doesn't Live Here's performance is better than this performance? And that Ellen Burstin in Requiem does not best Helen Hunt in- I lied. Ellen Burstin lost to Julia Roberts for Erin Rackovich. This was 2000. Well, they put her in lead? They did. She should have been in supporting. I think it was the Ellen Burstin of it all that made her push. She should have been in supporting and she would have won. Does category fraud drive you crazy? It does, but I feel like I've committed it. Where, when? I feel like on horror story ones, it's not my fault, it gets decided. Oh, that they put you in support. I think there was, sometimes I was put in lead because I technically qualified to be in it. Because maybe the supporting actor category was gonna be too crowded. So someone at the studio made a decision to put me in the other one. And then I did get nominated in that category and I think it was the right thing. But I don't, like what's the most egregious version of category fraud that you have? You know what's weird in a reverse way? Anthony Hopkins is only in Towns of the Lambs for a little bit over 10 minutes and one best actor. Sure. Whoa. Yeah. Cause that movie is all Jodie Foster. Yeah. If she won too, right? It is what it is. I understand why it happens. I understand why it happens too, but it's just, this is why we should just abolish it all. Bye. Let's have a party. I think that's what Kate was getting at. Just like have a party. Everybody's nominated. You all get your certificate. Everybody should get a statue. You can hear Oscar for sustainable about it. Exactly. Thank you. This is my thing because I do agree it's getting weird, especially like the Golden Globes or whatever, but like the comedy drama placements, like the Emmys, it's like, okay, some of these things that go, who's got cold comedies? It's like so silly. I almost feel like everyone shows up to the awards and it's a surprise. Yes. Five awards get given out. You're nominated. You're nominated. You know what I mean? You're like, I'm here just, I'm here just, I'm here. Yes, I think that's really true. Like just something should change. Something should change. This is why we have our fake goofy fun award show. Which I wanted to go to this past year, but I was out of town, but I wanted to go desperately. Really wanted to go. If we get our, if we have our druthers, we do it as many years as they let us and... Why wouldn't they let you do it again and again? Wasn't it a delicious success? It was fun, but you know. We, you know how it is, but basically like we, when we were reaching out to people for the culture awards, we didn't know who was actually out of town or who was like, what the fuck is that? Oh no, I wasn't in town. I would have 100% been there. Okay, well next year. 100% Next year. Allegedly next year. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. Allegedly, another, like, I'm tired of love that. Yes. Allegedly is fun. Allegedly. Anyway, you're right. I mean, I think we've actually gotten, this is helpful information. Cause I think when Kate was here and talking about this, like, of course the nuance got taken out of it for the headline, but I think this, like let's please y'all, EWs and ETs of the world. Let's just really like... Let's rein it in. Let's rein it in. Do this conversation justice. You know what I mean? I think this is because we care. Don't wait for the full course. It's because we care about it. It's because it should be... Because it matters, it doesn't matter to me in the sense that like little me watched the Tony Awards, watched the Oscars, watched the Emmys. Like I watched them, like, was obsessed with them and planned out political and mapped out and... You want to know why we have Viola Davis today being a lead actress because she was nominated for doubt because there was room for her. Correct. In a supporting category that allowed nine minute performance that was that outstanding to be nominated. And so now she is the powerhouse Viola Davis because she was an Oscar nominee. I have a whole thing that I want to do with petitioning SAG about this because I really feel that the SAG Awards in particular, they do everything, everybody goes into one category. So supporting actors are in the leading... But why Lumpin? It's like also all the supporting actors, like there is nothing... It's like the buttress of a building. It's like the building cannot stand. It's like you need all of it. And I just feel like there's a real diminishment of a supporting actor by way of not giving like space, room and opportunity. And also the career change that it can affect. If all of a sudden you give a nine minute performance in something that is outstanding and then you find yourself in the same conversation with these actors who have been around forever and who you all of a sudden have an opportunity to make a better living, you get more opportunity. It's just about the opportunity. So it's like... And then within 15 years you fully egot. That's right. You know what I mean? If you're Viola Davis. If you're Viola Davis. Which there are so many talented people out there like that deserve... The supporting stuff drives me nuts. Cause I'm like, that's where the character actors get the time. Sometimes the best work is happening. 100% agree. Every time. I do just before we go, I want to connect you guys on the Studio 60 and SNL. Oh yeah. Cause that was such an incredible show and under sung show. And your performance in that, I think really put you on the map in six, seven, eight, nine, 10 ways. You know what I mean? Yeah. It did except for, yeah, I think a lot of people didn't think I was funny on it. Which is fair. But it was a dramedy. And also like, Aaron wasn't like, didn't Aaron who is Aaron Sorkin, who is a genius, but like didn't have any writers there doing any like sketch writing. He was doing all of it. So like, based on like some of the things I did in my audition were like, I imitated this person and I imitated that person. And I could do my impressions and things. But like, it wasn't, it just didn't really become about that. You know, but like also every single time my character came on screen, it was like somebody was talking about how this, like I was the Kristen Wiig of the show, like the world's, you know, I'm Gilda Rathner, like the funniest sketch performance. And then like they never gave me any sketches to do. And then like, so people were like, we don't get this. She did an amazing dramatic performance. Exactly. And they're like, what is this? But you know what I was really playing Kristen Chenoweth, who is Aaron Sorkin's love at the time. And so like that was, it's, you know, yeah, it was just a, so she was conservative. And Matthew Perry was playing this sort of Aaron character. And it was just really, and I thought that show was going to last for ever. And it was right after Friends, right after the West Wing. And it was like, well, look at me walking up to this, right in this moment. And then sure enough, yeah, sure enough. Nobody cared. What year did you move to LA after? I moved to LA in 1998. She great year, it seems like. 1988, 1998, 98, 98, 98. 98. 98, I think. When Hollywood was, when Hollywood, yeah. But it's like, I kind of missed like back in the day, like when we were coming up as like, okay, like pilot season. Pilot season. I got one and a half in and then it died. Oh yeah. Cause I moved out there, what, 2018? Yeah. No, we were still pilot season serious and like seeing all the same girls at OSTL audition and like going into like, I remember when I went to Test for Down with Love, this movie I did with. Oh, yes, of course. Yes. And it was like Tina Fey, me and Alison Janney and Courtney, it was just like, and like pulling up and seeing so and so walk to their car and Zach Braff was in there reading with a bunch of people. And then this one came in to read with this one. And then it was just like, something to live on. And it was like, oh, it was a very different thing. And they were mixing and matching and putting different people. And it was a whole thing where you would like be confronted with your competition. And you learn a lot. And you learn a lot. And, you know, remember testing for a pilot against Hillary Swank? Like, oh yeah, it was like a real, there was like a sea of us. And now like we never see everybody anymore except for like, you don't see each other in the trenches anymore. We used to be like, look at us all out here. Like we were in our bathrooms this morning, like, la la la, like putting on our makeup and running our lines and in the car, like practicing your stuff and then getting there and asking for a highlighter. And, you know, you know, all that stuff, signing in and seeing who had been there before you. And those days are gone. Yeah, the la la land. Yeah. The la la land, no. Just not a thing anymore. Yeah, exactly. I'll never need anyone. There was a time when I would be in multiple waiting rooms for auditions with, for some reason, Lesley Bibb. And I'm like, oh, I love that. The two of us being like, we weren't up for the same cards. And also, that's Lesley Bibb also. I'm sure. For me and Lesley Bibb to be in the same audition, we were like hilarious. Again and again. But it's like, she would never remember this. But it's like, I'm sorry. I bet she would remember. I bet she would remember. I don't think so. She's so cool. She's cool. She's the coolest. Yeah. Am I free time? Am I free time? This is our one minute segment where we take exactly that amount of time to dress something down in culture and it's got us twisted. And we've come to the reality portion of the episode because I got a bone to pick with an icon. Okay. This is a rotted bone to pick with an icon. This is how Roddy Bones takes so honey and his time starts now. I don't think so, honey, Jeff, Propes you're not gonna get away with calling Parvati Shallow a one and a half time winner of Survivor. Incorrect. She won two times. She won Micronesia and you know that. And she just won Australian Survivor, which is, I'm gonna say it, not only more difficult version of Survivor, but a better produced version of Survivor. The best season of Survivor. American Survivor, you better get it together because they are lapping you there, outclassing you around the world. Do not play with me about Parv. Don't, don't, Jeff. Fuck with Parv, 30 seconds. I've got a lot to say about the amount of twists in the show. I'm a diehard fan of the show for years and I just, I don't think it's getting better. So for you to pick on one of the great iconic winners of the show, I think just because she went and did Traders and that pisses you off, don't show, don't show that you're insecure, Jeff. Oh no. Because I will get you on this podcast. I don't think so honey, nothing but respect for the queen, Parvati. Love you. Love you, that's one minute. Listen. That is a tough fact to follow. I mostly like really like your energy. I really like, I just, yeah. I don't like it. Are you a survivor person? In the beginning I watched Survivor. You're a housewives person. I'm a housewives person in a major way. So what are your recent thoughts? I mean, I'm obsessed with Salt Lake. I think I don't know what anybody, what I did to deserve it, but I am here for it. What did any of us do? What did we do? Because this is giving me, I don't know what's going on with Lisa Barlow. I don't know. She's going through something. Something is really going through something and the stuff with her and John, I'm a little bit like, what is that going to be? Credit card fraud, we don't know. Whatever's happening with Bronwyn. I don't know what, like what, what's actually going on with you. And something is sealed and we can't discuss it. She was saying, I was like, what is sealed? She's like, it's sealed. I think it's how you guess something happens. I think you can surprise yourself with what is categorized as like male fraud, identity. Some things are weird and it might be something weird. Well, you're a lawyer now. I'm Esquire now. And I also, Carrington Lane would definitely know. And she wouldn't be friends with any of them. She would hate them all. Maybe she'd hang out with Mary a little bit. And I can't figure out why does Angie talk so slow? Why does Angie, everything with Angie. Well, it's very, it's the speed. And it's the energy. You know that you are my closest friend here. Right, and I'm like. Also, did you notice this about her? Something that's become very apparent is that the way she turns. She did the side eyes very good. Someone did a super good at the, Angie K, our favorite, our favorite. Yeah, I love Angie K, but like, why are we, why is everything, and when she thinks she's giving a very like, like a big diss, it's like she does it in this way that is so normal. Like you are the genshaw. I mean, you're like, is that supposed to be like a gauntlet thrown? Like what are we throwing down? I can't, it's just, but I am the way I eat it up. Of course. I just can't get enough of it. I think that Angie K solidified, obviously high body count hair was great. High body count. You know what does more respected? Trampling with eyes. Trampling with eyes. Trampling with eyes is so good. High body count hair, but, trampling with eyes. But also, I mean, I just watched the one with Brittany and her daughter and that was like, we just want to bring it down for one second and just say, this is really, I felt sad because what I can't understand about Brittany is why she's always like, okay. Everything is like, I know, I do. When Whitney was like, do you, you should want to deal with your daughter. She's like, I do, I do. And I'm just like, something, is everything okay with Brittany? It has to cut through a lot of noise that, that has been like, leaving the sound of like a flat line. It's like, it's like an emotional flat line. It's like, is there something? I'm like, hello, is this on who? Her daughter's like, I just, and the idea that she was this great mom and that like, it's almost, it's really hard when you have, when you're 12 and like, you lose your mother to another person who isn't even your dad. A guy who's obviously like, love bombing and gasping. Love bombing, yeah. Her total narcissist. They gave her daughter a confession. I thought that was wild. And they haven't given a friend of his daughter a confessional. But I feel like Brittany isn't a friend of anymore. I feel like something's happening to us. No, we're being given more Brittany. She's main cast. She's main cast now, right? Absolutely. I think she deserves this spot. She deserves this spot. I think for her to really like have a footprint on that show with that cast, that stacked cast, I think she deserves it. Why not? Okay. Is there anybody you'd pull away? Oh, this is so hard. Really tough. I wouldn't do that now. I wouldn't do that. You wanna know what? Maybe last year, I thought Whitney felt absent. Agreed. But this year, I think she's having a great season. I'm really into Whitney right now. Yeah. I'm into like her being like, everything fell apart. Also, what about, it's the way she says, Oh God, what does this actually say? No, no, no, no. She says, I fell. Everything is, I instead of feel, it's fell. I fell and he tells. Telling journey. It's my howling journey. I'm still feeling. I'm still howling. Who are you on recently on Watch and Happ? Who's your most recent watch and happen? I'm going on on Wednesday with Bronwyn. I'm on in December with Angie and he's been on with Angie. I've been on with Angie. So we share Angie. Angie K. I was on with Heather Gay, Lisa Rena. Dorinda, who's still to my debt to this day to me is like iconic. Yes. We recently sent a picture, I in fact, I've squeezed in as last night of Dorinda and Luanne together. And all I can say is that the photo had sexual energy. Okay. Well, Luanne came to my, both of them came to my play. Luanne came to my play and that was something. Yeah. That was something. She is really something. She's a star. She's a star. Definitely. I mean, she sang a little bit for me. Did she? At your show. At my show, because a friend of mine is my friend, Karla Gallo is obsessed with her and I videoed her. And it was like, she was, she thought she was doing a cameo is what it felt like. She was like, darling, darling cat. She's done so many. But I was like, it's just my friend on the bass. It's really not, but, but I was here for it. Have you ever gotten a housewives cameo? No. Joel, Jamie Lee Curtis style. I'm like, oh, they're with like, remember when she went on? Do you remember when Jamie Lee Curtis was on? Beverly Hills. Oh, yes. And she like brought her my hand in yours. I mean, like a cameo, like a, like a, like a, like a video message. Oh no. Cause you know the housewives are all on that. No, I'm, no one's ever sent that to me, but I'm relying on you to do that. Okay, no, we won't do that for you. I'll pick. Who would I be? We got one from Derinda. Derinda. Joel Kimbooster sent us a one so that he could ask us to be in his wedding party and I got Dolores Catania. Oh my God. Love. Amazing. Love Dolores. I mean, I just love the housewives. I'm very grateful for them too. I mean, they used to help me survive a jet blue flight to New York is really how I started it. When I would watch the OC from the beginning and just like five hours later it'd be like in New York, don't want to get off the plane. Right. I'm glued. Yeah, I'm glued. I always appreciated your, your love for Bravo and housewives. These are VU being this incredible actor because I was just like, well, it has to be, it has to be important. There's some part of me that is really fascinated by, you know, the thing you think when you read something and you go, no one would ever do this. Who would behave this way? And you're like, oh no, there is no end to what people will do or behave, how they will behave. And the minute you decide that it's like an impossibility, it's like all the more, and this show to me is like, evidence of that on a daily basis. And I'm just fascinated by this human behavior. No, you couldn't make up Jenshaw. You couldn't make up Bronwyn. You couldn't make up Mary. You couldn't make up any of that. No, you certainly couldn't make up Mary. Meredith, their heads like over here, like why is it on the side? Why is it on the side? We rewatched this weekend. I just don't know. I just, in the morning, you can leave Palm Springs security security. You can leave. If you're looking for the best episode of housewives, it is all tricks, no trust in that season. The Palm Springs episode at the Trixie Motel. And I did ask Heather Gay directly if she was peeing or if that was vomit. Both. I think it's both. She's not sure. She don't remember. I don't think she remembers, but I... She's a friend. We love her. Yeah. She thinks it was vomit. And I think it was too liquid. It was too liquid. It was too liquid. It was coming. I think it was also coming from so low. It's all you know. I just feel like it was. She was leaking. Like the way it was coming out, the force, force of, like, the force field was like too low. If it came that high, if it came up from high enough, it would have been viscous. Yeah. And it also would have like lost its power down and it had a lot of force. Totally. I think we should revisit it because... We're scientists. We literally, like, I would watch it once a week. Also, our friend Jared watches the OC reunion that's about Brooks. He, like, watches it to go to bed. Yes, that's a good question. He can't, like, do it unless it's the not, unless that thing is on. I'm like, Vicki's daughter. Oh, God. What's her name? Jesus. Coming out and like, like... Whenever it's like... That's my opinion or whatever. It's a conflict between a mother and their child on a reunion. I'm like, God, it's too far, but I love it more. I love it. Are you ready? I know. I've got a simple one. This is Bo and Yang's, I don't think so, honey. His time will begin now. I don't think so, honey. Movie theater seats costing the same across the board in the same room. If it's front to rows, it better not cost anything, more than $5, let's say. If I'm on the sides, it should be a little bit cheaper. If it's centered, it should be more expensive. Let's tear them out like theater. I'm not saying we like price, you know, stratify this in a certain way, but I'm just saying like, let's treat it like a theater because that's what it is. Let's give it orchestra seating, not that there's an orchestra, but you know what? There are certain seats that are objectively better than others in the theater. We should pay accordingly, make them more affordable for some people, make them make the theater as a center aisle that we forget about and let's just call the whole thing off. Let's just shut it down. But I'm saying, movie theater seats are all priced the same, then that just kind of flattens the experiences of movie going at all. Let's just, let's give it some meaning, let's give it some interest again. I think five seconds wouldn't save the industry, but it could go towards helping it. That's one minute. And that's one minute. I, ah, 1,000% agree with this. Right? It's common sense. It's common sense. And I would pay the extra for the thing where I would also be like, if it's front to rows, I don't want to pay whatever. Sometimes that's all that's left. And I'm like, well, I'm not paying $15. To have my neck and my tiniita massage afterwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, I have an issue with, this is about theater, but previews, they'll say it's costing the same as during the run because it was gypsy. And look how that turned out. I saw the third preview. It was not ready. You know who was ready? Audra, of course. Audra was perfect. But the thing is I was just like, and then I heard it got so much better. I did end up seeing it like again. I heard it got better, so I went again. And I was like, see, now this justifies the price. Yep. All right, are you ready? This is the opportunity for you to shred. You ready? Well, I don't like the pressure, but I've got some shit to say. Okay. This is Sarah Paulson's, I don't think so honey, your time starts now. Okay, I don't think so honey, that the pigeon is a rat with wings. I feel very, very triggered by this. I want you to understand something about a pigeon. Pigeons have been taught to be near us, to carry our messages to our loved ones. Pigeons have been, they made for life, first of all. They are not dirty. We made them our city dwellers so that we could get them to take information to faraway lands, to stop wars, to tell somebody you love them. They were our messengers of our heart, our minds, our brains. It was their job to do work for us. And we have had them now in the city, people step on them, people run them over, they don't care, they don't feed them, they give them their trash. They talk about them the way they are talked about. The way they are talked about, they are talked about as if they are disgusting. Yes, they made for life. I watched a pigeon, I watched a pigeon make a nest for a cat, just out of the goodness of its heart. You know what, that cat didn't try to eat that pigeon. That pigeon hate must be stopped. I'm calling on the world to stop hating on the pigeon. And that's one minute. Thank you. This is a movement, not a moment. This is a movement, not a moment. What the fuck did pigeons ever do to you? Pigeons didn't do anything to you. Yeah, because they're not seagulls. They're not seagulls, they're not, they are not seagulls. They're not, and they would never take your bagel. They would never take your bagel. They don't want your bagel. They want to sit on your shoulder and they want you to tell them about your day. That's what they want. And then if you would like to go give a message to Matthew across town, they will happily take it. They will take it there and they will deliver it to him in a scroll. They will, you could write it up. They'll take it in their, yeah. Send a carrier pigeon to give him the next message. Just let's put the pigeons back to work. They need to work. They need to work. Tuff in the bag. Tuff in the bag, tuff in the bag. Tuff in the bag. Tuff in the bag. They're doves. They're doves. They're doves. And you wouldn't do this to doves. Doves in a beautiful iridescent like movie edgard thing with a little bit of green on their heads. They love each other forever. They pick a person and love each other forever. How could we treat them so terribly? How could we treat them so terribly? They're monogamous. They're monogamous. They're monogamous people. Thank you. I'm about to cry. Love a pigeon. Guess what I grew up with? What? Grand Theft Auto IV. There is a whole side mission in that game. Y'all know what I'm talking about? Flying rats, Nick knows. Flying rats and their pigeons? You have to go shoot them. I've been incentivized to shoot these birds. Next time you look at that bird in life, just remember, that pigeon used to do your work for you. That pigeon sent a text for you, sent your email, delivered it lovingly. Bless the pigeons. Thank you. You're welcome. Bless the pigeons. A third option for title of that. I'm about to add in. You didn't think we'd have this many. Thank God. That was amazing. This is a true. I felt like in an extended conversation with you, I'm like, oh, this is a real savant of the culture of the industry. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your opinion. Interesting. I just really. You love this stuff. I love, I mean, we know when Kristen Miliotti won the Emmy for the, which is like, I love acting. And she screamed, I love acting. And I swear to God, I went like this out of my chair. I levitated because it was like, there is a person saying what is in my heart out loud and being celebrated for it. And it's like puts her hand in the air and is like woo wooing to I love acting. It's like. She rocks. She just rocks the Kazba and every other Kazba, whatever anybody rocks. She rocks the Kazba every time out. Always and always has and has the voice of an angel. Did you see her? Oh my God, of course we did. It's just like next level. She's next level in every way. She's the coolest. She's the coolest person. But was able to stand there and say I love acting. And I swear to God, I was like, everything's gonna be okay. That's my shit. That's my shit. And I was like, I feel seen. I know who I am in the world when a person can do that. And people are excited about it. And so like I just feel like normalizing excitement about what you love. I don't care how silly someone decides it is. And it's so cringe because you love it. It's like, you know what's cringe? Thinking everything's so uncool. I'm just like guess what? Guess what's cool? How being passionate is cool. Loving what you do is cool. Recognizing that you get to do something that you love and that people are like, yes, you get to do it. And I'm like, I know how lucky I am. I have friends who are more talented than I could ever dream of being, who do not have jobs. So just love it. Love it because you get to do it. Love it if you don't get to do it. Just keep loving it. And you know who's loving it? All of you, because you're probably streaming all's fair. I guess at least one episode is out now. Yes. And this? Three, I think three are out now. Okay, okay, okay. Because first three come. I love releasing. First three. I love releasing early apps. You want three because basically the beginning is like letting you know who everybody is and that takes a minute. And then we're gonna get into it. And then you gotta get into it. So you gotta like ride past one, learn who we all are. Get ready. Get to know. Basically, like, I don't know if you've seen the trailer, but the trailer is like, it's the corner. It's this much. It's a lot. And it's a lot. You know what, that's the way I want it to be. I'm telling you. Maximum wins. You're gonna get maximalism. There's nothing about this that is, I mean, I call Kim Kardashian beef curtains on National Telling Me. As you walk through a vaginal hall. I walk through a cervical, a clown cervix. A clown cervix, that's what you say. I call Emerald Green. Emerald Green. I call Glenn Close, George Washington. On National Telling Me. What more do you want? What more do you want? I love it. Mayor McHed cheese. I call them that too. I mean, like, it's really. Good stuff. Head cheese. I don't wanna ever hear head cheese on a TV show, except if it's all fair. I'm gonna go with the word. Mayor McHed cheese. And with that, we end every episode with a song. Why is it this? Do you know this song? There's always tomorrow and dreams will come true. You know, why is that? I don't know, but it was an episode of Saturday Night Live with Kristen Wiig and Fred Armisen doing the thing where they were trying to sing the songs together and they don't know the song. Yeah, it was that. That's what it was. Bye. Bye. Yeah. Lost Cultures is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and I Heart Radio Podcast. Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Boa Nyeg. Executive produced by Anna Hosnie and produced by Beccaramos. Edited and mixed by Duck Bane. And our music is by Henry Koporsky. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed human.