Girl, Whatever with Charli xcx & Aidan Zamiri

Hi, this is Aidan Zamiri.

0:00

Hi. This is Charlie XCX and this is the A24 podcast.

0:01

Great. That was great. That was great. That was great.

0:05

Here we are.

0:08

Hi, Charlie.

0:09

Hi, Aidan.

0:11

You look amazing.

0:12

So do you.

0:13

Thanks.

0:14

We're doing the A24 podcast. We finally made it.

0:14

We finally made it. Do you know, I was about to do. Maybe you won't like this. I was about to say welcome to Charlie XCX's Best Song Ever.

0:18

Wow, you're in the deep cut.

0:26

That's the thing about me. If there's someone that could write a Wikipedia page about me, it's me.

0:28

How long have you been a fan of mine?

0:35

Great question, great question. Okay, so I think I must have come across you around the time of you. Hahaha.

0:37

Wow. Which in 2025, the year we are no longer in. That song was kind of going viral.

0:48

On TikTok and you know, I think it's a really inspiring TikTok trend. The girl whatever trend.

0:57

I didn't do it.

1:03

I think you could still.

1:04

I think it's a bit late now that we're in 2026.

1:05

We're in January of 2026. The reason I think that trend was actually really exciting was it sort of. It sort of represented freedom.

1:08

Yeah, absolutely.

1:19

The ethos of it was girl whatever.

1:21

Totally. Yeah. Let's tell them how we met. You go first.

1:24

Okay. Okay. So. All right. My first meeting, by the way, I'm.

1:30

Trying to put some structure in this because I know that if we don't.

1:34

No, no, no.

1:36

I will literally just talk about bullshit for an hour.

1:37

A really good conversation. And I think people are gonna be like, bloody hell. Those two of them. Pretty good at this whole. Yeah, right. So first time we ever met was. Well, this is my first meeting with you. But not your first meeting with me. It was either 2013 or 2014.

1:41

I think it was 13.

1:55

I think it was 13 because I think I was still or just finished high school and I went to a music festival called Tea in the Park. And I remember telling you about this and you said, I vowed to never go back again, that you did go back again the next year. So I looked it up.

1:55

Oh, cool.

2:10

I'm the Wikipedia. You had a midday slot. It was a kind of time in your life when it was sort of big buffalo boots, a little pink nightie. You had an all girl band. Very cool. You were singing songs like Super Love, one of my favorites. How do you feel about that?

2:10

Super love. Yeah, you know, I know it's A fan fave, but it doesn't particularly speak to me anymore, sonically, as a song. I just. Yeah. I don't know, but I know people like it. I'm. Do. You know, at that point in time when I was making music, I was doing an accent in a lot of my songs.

2:27

What was the accent?

2:49

Sort of like this Scandi accent. Because I was recording a lot in Sweden. I know. I really love Sweden.

2:50

I didn't know that ran that deep.

2:55

It really runs so deep. My love for Sweden. So. Because I was working with Patrick Berger, who he produced. I love it. He produced Dancing On My Own. Like, whoa. And we were working in Stockholm together a lot. And so when I did the first demo for I Love it, for example, the way that I sang it was like, I love it, you know?

2:57

Well, I. Yeah.

3:15

And so in Superlove, which Patrick made with me, Right. It's very much doing, like this, like, head to bra, like.

3:16

Wow.

3:25

Hey, hey, Charlie. Skandi Skoll.

3:25

Yeah. Wow. So that was kind of in the act in your sort of pseudo Swedish.

3:31

Yeah. Because obviously, as you know, whenever I go to Sweden or hang out with Swedish people, my accent changes and I start kind of talking a little bit, like, up and down. Hey, Charlie, let's get the snooze. Like. And I can't just be like, yeah, yeah, I think about that a lot. I'm like, I think about that a lot. Wow. So anyway, you.

3:35

Sorry. Okay. So, yeah, in that. Imagine yourself in that zone, you personally imagine you with a Swedish accent rattling around your head. Me with actually a much stronger Scottish accent. And I think just to help your visual of me, because I would sort of describe what you were doing. I kind of had. I think I sort of tried to dye my hair silver, but it was sort of a kind of gross yellowy blonde that I put loads of silver shampoo in and it kind of had bluey, sort of marbled almost tips. Yeah. But no, no, I don't think it was. I think it was bad. And then, anyway, I was sort of front row of your midday slot. But that actually was the only. That was the only role. There wasn't about 50 people in the crowd, but obviously people that got it.

3:55

You were early.

4:42

I was. I was. Yeah. It's hard being ahead, as a wise woman once said. So, yeah, saw that. And then it wasn't till much later that we actually met.

4:42

I think we actually met at Caroline Polachek's birthday party at the Cow in Notting Hill. There were a lot of whelk Welks in dishes and trays and. You sure you didn't have a single? Well, I didn't have a.

4:52

Well, did George have a welk?

5:07

I. I don't know. I. I remember leaving Hungary what I felt, because there was a lot of whelks. And there it was. It was just a lot of, like, crustaceans and. Which is not my, like, mo. Especially on like a hot day upstairs at the Cow in Notting Hill. Like, it was sweaty in there, it was warm, and there were a lot of whelks. Anyways, I kind of.

5:09

Actually, I think I was quite well fed. But the thing is, I've got quite a strong stomach, so I can really.

5:29

I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

5:34

I can muscle in.

5:35

Yeah.

5:36

Pardon the fun. Oh, no.

5:37

But, yeah. So that's where I feel like we first met. But I was obviously, like, very aware of your work. Yeah, of course. From before. Cause I feel like you'd done a lot with twigs. You'd done a lot with Caroline.

5:39

You. I think I've done something with Jonathan.

5:57

Done stuff with Jonathan. So obviously artists who I, you know, like, familiar with and like seeing their work a lot. I always really liked your work. And then we. We had like, almost worked together a few times.

5:58

Yeah, it was kind of crash era stuff as well.

6:13

Yeah.

6:16

I remember actually Imogene, our mutual friend who is your creative director, and we've made loads of stuff together. I remember she actually reached out earlier some for some crash things, but. But it was before I had like a US visa.

6:16

I won't fully tell this story, but there's that Rolling Stone shoot that didn't happen for a few reasons, but we won't go there.

6:27

Well, yeah, didn't like my creative anyways. I think it.

6:36

Anyways, anyways. But yeah, no, I've always been familiar with your work. And I guess when was the first time we worked together?

6:42

Okay, so our first thing. Do you know what we almost did? You were texting me and I was. And I remember being like, oh, my God. Charlixcx just followed me. And then you DMed me and you said, could you come and do like a lyric video for Beg for your. Oh, yeah.

6:50

Really?

7:05

Check the texts. Check the DMs.

7:06

Lyric video. Why was I here?

7:07

I know I was literally like. You were like lower tier. I was about to jump to the chants lyric video.

7:09

Oh, can you imagine? Sorry.

7:15

No, it's okay. You didn't kind of see the potential at that point. And then proper first time was we did our favorite brand. We did an amazing shoot that honestly felt like an editorial. Sorry. We did an amazing shoot for the. For famed European retailer Zalando.

7:17

I'd do it again, actually.

7:40

I'd do it again. Do you know what?

7:42

It was fun. We got to do whatever we wanted.

7:43

We went to Berlin.

7:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Went to Berlin, period, period.

7:47

And. And we had, like. We had an amazing, amazing set. Set designer called Steph.

7:54

Yeah.

7:59

She did a fantastic job where we had a hole in the floor and your scarf sort of goes into the hole. Goes into the hole. We had a big sort of, sort of burning backdrop behind you. Who did you say you looked like when he did that photo? Remember, it was like you had a kind of collared shirt.

8:00

Oh, Samuel Peeps.

8:17

You said. You said Samuel motherfucking Peeps. I didn't know who it was, and I had to Google. Then I was like, oh, and I.

8:20

Do you. Well, it's giving Samuel Peepage.

8:26

You kind of looked Samuel Peepage. And it was a really fun time. And we. We bonded and we went, oh, we're connected.

8:28

Yeah, we. Yeah, yeah.

8:34

And then it was a few months later and you messaged me and said, hey, got a song. And then. So that it was more encrypted, as in safer. A safer message. You sent me 360 on WhatsApp.

8:35

Yeah.

8:49

And there. And I went, this is a mental song.

8:50

Yeah.

8:53

I'm so Gabriette, or.

8:53

Well, that's actually not what it is, is it? Fuck's sake.

8:55

You call me Gabriette. You're so inspired.

8:58

Yeah, that.

9:01

Roll that back.

9:03

Fake fan, whatever. No, but you know. You know what's actually really interesting? To go back to the Zalando shoot.

9:06

Sorry, I didn't mean to move on from that.

9:12

No, no.

9:14

Yeah.

9:15

I mean.

9:15

Sorry. Sorry.

9:15

So much to unpack there. No, you mentioned the scarf going into the hole in the ground. So just to, like, explain, like, this image. It's like I'm in, like, a very, very long scarf.

9:16

Yeah.

9:30

And I'm in a room. I'm sat on the floor.

9:30

Yeah.

9:33

Of the bedroom. And there's a hole in the floor of the bedroom. And the scarf that I'm wearing, like, kind of drapes into the hole in the ground. And that was like, when I knew. I was like. Oh, you have, like, a humor that I have of not even speaking.

9:33

Yeah. That specific image.

9:51

Well, it's just, like, I think it's hard to find. At least I find that it's hard to find, like, a creative collaborator who's, like, willing to kind of like, risk being silly and, like, kind of surreal and ridiculous, but also, you know, think that that actually is kind of high art as well. And high art, you'll be, like, interested in, like, playing with, like, like stupidness, but in a way that's also actually really beautiful. And I think that actually, like, that kind of a thing, those kind of images have. Has become, like, a pretty big part of our dialogue as collaborators, because I think we are both into beauty and we're both into emotion, but at the same time we can also, you know, like, do these, like, really stupid, ridiculous, like, surreal, funny, dumb things and mix them into the work. Like, for example, like in the 360 video, I have to, like, smash through a wall, you know, and.

9:53

Yeah, all of it's dumb as hell.

11:01

Dumb, but there is also.

11:02

You're on top of a man on a gurney.

11:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just. I don't know, I really. I think it's really charming. It's what I really like about our work together, that we can make something beautiful, but there is also just this, like, ridiculousness to it, you know?

11:06

That's really cool to hear. That's how I. Yeah.

11:21

And I find that a lot with, like, a lot of your. Your images actually, like, with. I think it's the Billy Rolling Stone one. Is she in, like, a harness?

11:24

Yeah, she's like, being a stunt woman, basically. Yeah.

11:37

And I just think. I don't know that there's something sort of, like, funny about that, but I think it's. It's sort of. Yeah, it's like, surreal.

11:39

That makes me really sad. I mean, I think you're. I've never articulated it like that. It's really cool to hear you say that because I do think that's also what really draws me to your work or your identity as an artist and all the things that you put out. Because it's a combination of taking it seriously and done seriously.

11:49

Yeah. And there's like a huge. Yeah, there's just this humor, I think, to both of us, but also we're also very, like, obsessed with the Internet and with culture, which is inherently, like, stupid, dumb and funny, but also very, very profound and, like, feeding so much of life in a way. And it's sort of like. I don't know, I think we're both kind of obsessed with that.

12:06

I think so, too. And I feel like I trained my eye or output on things like Tumblr, so it was like the way that this combination of kind of low brow stuff and high brow Stuff and it being stupid, but also being extremely sincere and it being all these things at once and, like, not filtering too much, just allowing all of it to kind of come in, compute, and then spit something out. Is that. Was there something like that for you when you were starting to make music or make art or whatever?

12:31

Yeah, of course. I mean, I remember when I went to art school, I went to Slade, and I dropped out after a year because, well, I kind of sucked. I don't know if you've seen my fine art.

12:58

Listen, the sort of morph suit, multicolored, like.

13:12

No, no, that was before.

13:16

Oh, that was before.

13:17

That's what got me in.

13:18

Oh, wow.

13:19

Like, Slade is kind of like, in ways quite like a classical school, and I was not at all making work.

13:20

Were they not into it when you were.

13:29

No, they weren't like, not into it. I just. I found it really hard because I was someone who at art school was like, I love Andy Warhol, you know, and everybody was like, okay, you fucking loser. You know, it was in the eyes.

13:30

Right, right, right.

13:46

You know, it was like, oh, you're like a basic.

13:47

Right? It's like. Yeah. Heard of art?

13:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally, totally. You know, but I. I think, like, to go back to what you were saying about, like, the High Low and things like that, it's like I was always really fascinated with, like, that world of, like, the Factory and the characters within it and, like, that kind of time in New York and the way that, like, product was being created at the same time as art. Art and commerce, as we're, like, very obsessed with talking about. And I think, like, for me, you know, when I was first started making music and making videos, like, whatever I was doing, it's like, as same as you. Like, I was kind of growing up on Tumblr and on the Internet, on MySpace, and I think there is, like, an equivalent of that kind of, like, grabbing for images and party culture and lifestyle and people via the Internet in a certain way that, like, that era of time, like the Factory era, it was kind of about, like, Persona and going out and making art and, like, obviously two completely different things. I was sat at home on my computer trying to, like, feed myself.

13:52

Yeah.

15:12

But I think that kind of, like, ingestion of, like, Persona and partying and art and fun kind of all became such a part of my language.

15:13

I think that's why, you know, the kind of Factory thing or party culture or any of these things, it feels like it's vital or it's timely and it's in conversation with the world around it. And that's maybe the work that we really like as well or we really respond to.

15:24

I think that we both gravitate towards work that, like, comments on how work is made. I think we're both really into meta stuff, which is, like, why you, like, love Kaufman and whatever. You know, it's like.

15:38

Like when a song knows it's a song.

15:58

Yeah.

15:59

Or like, when a film knows it's a film. You know what I mean? And actually kind of why I, like, when a photo knows it's a photo. Right.

16:00

Do you enjoy being a voyeur as, like, a photographer and a director? Because you don't really have voyeur vibes. Like, you know, most, like, photographers and directors are a little, like. Oh, yeah.

16:05

Perverts. Yeah. Yeah.

16:15

Not to generalize, but you know what I mean.

16:17

No, I know.

16:20

Horniness. And obviously, it's like, that's not exactly. Not yet.

16:20

Well, not. Who knows what could happen on the 24 podcast? It could get really. No, no, no, guys. So I'm blushing. No. I actually think one of the main things that I find appealing in making work, particularly when it's in collaboration with someone else, is actually that storytelling element. I don't think of myself or I don't see myself as a director or a photographer, where it's like, this is my world that I want people to fit into. You know what I mean?

16:27

Yeah.

16:57

And, like, some. Some photographers and directors that I really love and admire do operate like that, and it's cool and they have that, but it's kind of not the way that I think so, actually. Really, I think my favorite part is it being kind of collaborative. Yeah. Being in collaboration and being, like, being able to, like, kind of find a story and do it justice or whatever, you know?

16:57

Yeah. I will say, like, you are a really good collaborator. Like, I love collaborating with you. I know I can be a bit, like, crazy sometimes.

17:17

I don't think you are. I actually really don't think you are.

17:26

You let me, like.

17:28

Yeah.

17:29

Do what I need to do. You know, like, if I'm having a tantrum or. Yeah, well, don't nod so quickly.

17:31

I mean, preemptively. I would let you have a tantrum. You've never done that.

17:39

You're really good with people, actually. And I think. I actually think that's why so many people, whether it be, like, Timothy or Billy or, I don't know, like, me, Pink Panthers, like, all of these different people that you've worked with. I feel like you I don't know. You really, like, bring out, like, really great things in people, and it makes people want to work with you again. Like. And I think you also develop really different languages with different people. Like, obviously, you've worked. You've been working a lot with Timothy, and I feel like your language with him is, like, really different from, like, our language together. And I think that's. That's really special and cool.

17:45

That's cool to hear that. Thank you.

18:29

Are you gonna make more movies? Obviously, you've got one with me, which we should probably talk about, but let's just talk about the other ones.

18:31

The other ones first. Okay. So actually, are there others?

18:38

Obviously, we have ideas.

18:41

I've not got any mother movies right now to do.

18:43

No, but, like, you gonna make more? 100%.

18:45

I mean, hey, if we talk a little bit about how this came into being, it was like, you know, we obviously. I felt like I found a really, like, an extremely important collaborator in my life and art and all these things. And obviously, I think we both really felt that way. And, you know, we had kind of spoken, even briefly, about, like, oh, we should maybe make a film together. Because, you know, that was the direction you knew you were headed in. And I think it's something that I. Making films is like, something that I maybe had hoped to do at some point in my life.

18:48

I actually wondered that if that was.

19:21

Do you know what? I think I spent my. I spent most of my life and, like, my career so far being pretty reactive to what. What the things that were thrown at me. And I really. I'm really glad I've been like that.

19:24

Yeah.

19:40

I've not had a clear plan of action because I think that feels unreasonable. In the world we live in, things change constantly. And I don't have any sort of specific, like, filmmaker heroes or people that I'd be like, oh, that's the life exactly I want to have. Yeah. You know, I watched some of them. I loved Marty Supreme.

19:40

Yeah.

20:05

Well done, Temmie. Big fans.

20:05

Big fans.

20:07

And I remember. Okay, do you know what? When I was, like, when I was a teenager, I remember feeling like I sort of made a decision to be like. Anything that was distracting me is the thing that I would try and make my main focus so that I. I was like, well, if I'm distracted by it, obviously I care about it more. And then that's kind of a.

20:08

That's wise.

20:24

Yeah. A kind of rule of thumb that I sort of gave myself generally. And it honestly resulted in, like, me doing all of this.

20:25

So I've been.

20:31

Yeah. An amazing distraction. Whatever kind of pulled my focus, I think became. I just like let that be my focus. And the reason I maybe look towards the idea of doing a film at some point in my life because it felt like it was a way to sort of really pin down an idea and really see it through from like start to finish in a really full way. And that's why I like love the idea of staying in this medium, you know. And that's not to say I'm not going to continue to be distracted or. Yeah. Or find other things. Like, you know, I. I do feel really excited by the. Say, for example, the work I've done with Timothy. For context. Timothy and I made a lot of stuff that's sort of in support of the films that he puts out, but they're sort of specific, weird little capsules are like, you know, it's really cool.

20:32

That he's game for that.

21:17

Yeah.

21:18

Because I think that's kind of rare.

21:19

Yeah.

21:20

I remember when I saw your Marty.

21:21

Ping pong video firing ping pongs at Timmy's head.

21:25

Yeah. I remember being like, oh, this is kind of like feels like an album rollout. And I don't think that that happens too much in film.

21:28

Yeah.

21:40

And that's one thing that I've been really like, super interested in with our film. It's like. I don't know, it's like, well, why would we. Just obviously there's so much more like protection around film. I think in. In a way like, you know, with music, it's like everything leaks all the time. It's almost sort of a part of like the law of something, like people waiting for the leak, you know?

21:40

Do you like leaks?

22:03

I used to hate them and now I don't care.

22:05

Right, right.

22:07

Because I think it's. It's like, fine. It's like. I don't actually think it like, does a disservice. I think it just like amplifies noise. So I kind of think it's cool. But I think with, with film there is still sort of a bit of a old school format to, you know, how to release something and how to roll something out. And that's why I think, like, what you and Timothy have done at different, you know, throughout different films, whether it be like the Dylan movie or with Marty, I think it really, like punctuates the landscape and it feels like something just different and cool and pop.

22:08

It's like pop cool. I'm so glad because I also. I think that's also part. I feel like that's why we really connect, because you're. You are specifically also really interested in. Or correct me if I'm wrong, but interested in not just, like, being an artist, but what it means to be an artist and what the industry feels like or what you can do in that space. Film is kind of this, you know, it's this very traditional medium. Maybe. I don't want to say that. It's like, you know, it's a. It's a. It's a medium which is, like, established. And there are, as you said, there are ways of rolling things out. And the idea of basically doing something new or doing something fresh is really exciting. So, I mean, to answer your earlier question, I'd love to keep making films because you get to do it in this really full way, but do you feel the same way? Do you feel like you are excited to use film as a new way to express your.

22:43

Yeah, I mean, I feel. I feel like not. I mean, at the end of last year, I felt like, not super inspired by music as a whole.

23:33

I remember you saying, yeah, I'm just. It's like you were almost like, I'm done.

23:50

I'm done.

23:53

I'm glad you're not. You've made music.

23:54

I've made music, yeah. But I. It took a second and. And to be fair, it always does after a record. I'm like, I'm done. I'm never making music again. But this time it felt really like. Oh. Like, I don't understand, like, what music is really. I was just like.

23:55

You felt like you. There was nothing.

24:17

I was just like, this feels a little, like, bleh.

24:19

Interesting.

24:24

I couldn't, like, get the juice. I couldn't, like. I was like. I don't know. I was just kind of like. I don't feel particularly like music is, like, doing it for me right now. It doesn't feel dangerous.

24:24

Had you always felt very dangerous, like it was your whole career?

24:37

I think it felt.

24:41

Is that the first time you'd felt that way?

24:42

I think, yeah. I think in the past, I had always felt that music was, like, volatile and dangerous for me, you know, like, I could get my highs and lows from it and my kind of, like, adrenaline rushes and things like that.

24:43

Cool.

24:56

And then I was kind of like, oh, everything feels pretty flat. Everything feels pretty safe. Like, I wasn't feeling particularly challenged by much. And so I think that's when I kind of began. I mean, even prior to that, I already was sort of leaning into, like, acting Things, But I think at that point I was like, yeah, I really. I'm not really going to focus on, like, making music right now.

24:56

You wanted to find some. That adrenaline.

25:20

Adrenaline, yeah.

25:22

So is that kind of being your driving force a lot of time when you're making stuff?

25:24

Yeah, I think so. Well, I think my. My driving force in life is to never be bored.

25:28

Yeah.

25:33

Like, I talk about it with my therapist all the time. It's like the second I have to, like, sit in something, I mean, you're a bit like this.

25:33

Yeah, we really are similar in that way.

25:39

Except you don't like to be alone. I actually do like to be alone. You can't really be alone. You're always like, hello, where are you?

25:41

Yeah, I'm alone. Yeah. Otherwise I don't exist.

25:46

Yeah. No one sees me. No one sees the performance. Look at me. No, but I. I think for me, it's like the second I feel bored.

25:50

You feel bad?

26:05

Yeah.

26:07

Had you always been like that?

26:07

Yeah. Oh, my God. I mean, it is also a problem. It's like, I have to work on it. Like, I have to work on it. I had to really work on it, Especially in relationships, you know? And so, like, with George, it's like, I've really, like, I found my person who I'm like, actually, I can be, like, really calm and really still with you because stillness with George isn't boring. It's actually really fun. And other things, I'm like, yeah, it's true.

26:08

Because I have a really similar thing. I have a really similar. It's honestly a FOMO for life in general.

26:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:40

Like, a general fear of missing out and kind of wanting to, like, kind of see as much as possible. It's that. Want to try it out?

26:41

Like, why would you not, like. Why would you not try? Yeah, I think it's like. It's also, like, sometimes it can be humiliating because if you suck, you know, you know what I'm like, that's actually a risk I'm wor. Willing to take.

26:49

I'm fine with that.

27:00

I'm willing to take the risk because everything's embarrassing anyway. As Sky Ferreira, once she hit the nail. She fucking hit the nail on the bloody head.

27:01

Bloody hell. Well done, Sky.

27:09

So, like, fuck it.

27:11

Because you know what? I actually felt really bored as a child. A lot. I felt.

27:12

Me, too.

27:16

Yeah, I think me too. Oh, God. We're unpacking some stuff now. I felt really, really bored. Because you were, like, suburban. Like a suburban countryside child. And so was I. I was like.

27:16

Very close to the M11 roundabout.

27:27

Oh, wow. Well, then, come on. You weren't bored. You had so many cars to look spinning around.

27:29

It was like. It was like, down. And I wasn't. I didn't live on the M11 roundabout.

27:36

All right. Shit. Now I get right in the middle.

27:41

But anyways, yeah, I. I don't know what I'm doing.

27:42

Yeah, but sorry. Being a suburban, kind of bored teenager.

27:46

Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, you know, I was actually talking to. I spoke with. With Jack Antonoff about this. It's like he was like, in New Jersey.

27:49

He's a similar board teenager.

27:59

Well, yeah, he. But he. But the thing is, it's like it was like New York was just over the hill. Like, it's not actually that far away. And that was the same. Same thing with me. It was like London was actually not that far. Like, you could kind of see it in your peripheral vision.

28:01

Right.

28:17

Like, it was like, so close you could almost reach out and touch it. And that, in a way, it was almost like that drove the drive. That drove. Yeah. You were like, almost there. The drive was so there to get to go. Because it wasn't actually like, super far away. And I think, like, for me as well, like, you know, going back to, like, the Internet, like, I was watching so much stuff happening in London online.

28:17

Like, nuke them all.

28:44

Yeah.

28:45

Cool.

28:46

Did you guys in newcomer?

28:47

No. Like, again, I went to two. Really?

28:48

I played at two, kind of towards the end.

28:50

Whoa. And you were like, 15?

28:52

Yeah, that was my parents.

28:54

Did you. Okay. Did you feel like when you'd done that, was that you're like, I've done what I've been dreaming of doing.

28:56

I was like, did you feel that? Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm cool. Just for clarity. Nukemore was like a club night. Very sort of like, new rave.

29:01

Yeah. To define New rave, it's a lot of, like, Spanish, like, plastic shutter, shadesy teapot necklace situation. Is that you?

29:10

I had a teapot necklace, yeah.

29:20

No way.

29:22

Yeah, Big way.

29:22

Right?

29:23

And the necklace was, like, made out of ribbons. And then you might, like, wear a cone on your head.

29:24

It's kind of almost like there's a kind of like a accessorizing American Apparel vibe to it.

29:28

Exactly.

29:33

Bright neon color. It felt very, like, disposable. Primarky.

29:34

Also, I think they, like, know.

29:39

I don't know.

29:41

I think they know, like, what New Rave is. No.

29:42

Who. Who's that?

29:44

I don't know. Who's listening? I don't know.

29:45

Well, that's the thing. I'm just sort of doing it for like, just my. I guess my mum's watching.

29:48

Yeah, my mum too. Yeah, good point. My mum's definitely gonna watch.

29:51

Oh yeah.

29:55

Oh, my dad definitely will watch. Do your parents like, are they. Do they engage?

29:55

They don't have Instagram.

29:59

Okay.

30:01

But they do. My mum does. She told me she Googles me, which is actually really fun.

30:02

Well, she have Google alerts on.

30:08

I don't think she's. Mom, do you know how to do that? I don't think she knows.

30:10

Right.

30:14

Maybe I don't want to doubt her, you know, media literacy or Google Googling skills, but she is.

30:14

Wait, I have a funny thing. Sorry. Sean Price Williams told me that he has Google alerts on for us. Isn't that so sweet?

30:20

Me and you.

30:28

Well, it's actually more me than you, but. Oh, I thought that was quite Charlie X Wings. I also, I don't know if he was lying. He could have been lying to stroke my ego.

30:29

That's really sweet. I don't have. I don't think she's got Google alerts on, but that's how she's sort of keeping up. So she'll mention, you know, my mum watched the guest music video and she said, she said this takes some getting used to. But you know, I think my mom was kind of. There's a lot of kind of underwear being ripped off and I think it was actually very open minded of her to say great, great stuff you got going on there. Anyway, we got derailed. But yeah, I feel similar. Like being bored as a teenager, I had no real frame of reference for like what, what you could do as a job or what was feasible or what was like wisdom scope. What I think is really cool about you, almost like knowing as a 15 year old, I guess you were writing your book.

30:39

I mean I didn't, I didn't really know.

31:26

I was just like going for it. Maybe that's what I mean, like going for it as a 14 year old. It's very cool to be that unembarrassed. You know what I mean? As a teenager. Yeah.

31:28

But also, don't you think, like, I mean, I'm a bit older than you, obviously. You're 30 years older. Yeah, 30. Now that we're in 20. 26.

31:36

Yes, exactly.

31:44

And did you make it into the list?

31:46

The list of 29 directors who are 29.

31:49

Did you?

31:53

Well, do you know what? In theory, I finished, we finished the film when I was 29.

31:54

Right.

32:00

But unfortunately.

32:01

But you can still be in 30. Under 30. Because you're 30. They did, did they? What did you say? No, not. That's bad.

32:02

But I was like. I was kind of a bit like, it's too much about money, right, that I just didn't want to present myself as an entrepreneur. Well, they asked. They asked me to, like, apply and I was like, I just, like, don't want to be an entrepreneur. Cool. Which is, you know, that's cool.

32:11

But when I was 14, there was so. There was. There was just a lot less embarrassment in general because even though obviously it was like we were all documenting ourselves on the Internet, whether that be like, MySpace or MSN or Bebo or whatever, it was sort of like. It was different. Cringe.

32:32

Didn't really.

32:56

No, No. I don't remember thinking I was so cringe online. And. Yeah, thank God. Like, thank fuck. But it's like, you know, it's like, it's. It's just so different now. Like, I. I remember when I first heard about Billie Eilish. Yeah. And she. How old? I mean, what, she was like, 14 when she blew up. Like, maybe something like that. Right. I just. I just remember being like, wow, this is a girl who has so much taste.

32:57

Yeah, yeah, genuinely.

33:26

Yeah, yeah, like, so much taste. Like, really knows how to, like, compile an image and have a point of view and have a point of view and. And it's really, like, well thought out and solid and, you know, then I think about me when I was 14 and my God, it's so. It was like. But I didn't have. I didn't have this. And I'm not saying that this is why Billie's work was like that. Like, honestly, she really just does have great taste.

33:28

Yeah, I think so.

33:56

But, like, when I was 14, I didn't have, like, the parameters of embarrassment to keep me from doing insane stuff. Like, I feel like when you're. When you're thinking about, like, what the way things could be received or the commentary around your work, it. It definitely makes you, like, think twice about stuff. Like, for example, when I play a demo to someone that I haven't played it played for before. Like, I'm suddenly, when I'm sitting, listening to the song, playing it to a friend, suddenly I hear the song on a different night. I'm like, oh, my God, what are they thinking about now? They're thinking about this. Wait, that lyric was really lame. Da da da da. But, like, when I was 14 and, like, dressing up and taking pictures of myself and, like, making music, I wasn't Thinking about that at all.

33:57

Yeah.

34:43

There was, like, a freedom and that.

34:44

Have an audience in your head.

34:45

No. And that's why a lot of it is really cringe. That's why I made a song called I Want To Be Darth Vader.

34:46

Fuck yeah.

34:53

Or Dinosaur Sex.

34:54

Oh, so amazing.

34:55

Do you know those songs?

34:57

Yeah.

34:58

T. Rex. Dinosaur Sex.

34:59

Yeah. I obviously got there. Watch me raw, Watch me roar Watch.

35:00

Me be like a dinosaur.

35:03

So cool. It's so cool.

35:05

You were 15.

35:06

Dinosaur sex.

35:08

I was 40.

35:09

That's a little crazy.

35:10

It's like a bit. Do you know what I mean? Like, that is a bit mad.

35:12

That is bonkers. But it is.

35:15

No shame. No shame.

35:16

That is so exciting.

35:18

I would. On stage, I would, like. I'd be like, going like that, like, fully insane. And I was wearing, like, odd shoes and I had bows in my hand. It was, like, totally embarrassing, but I had no. I was just like, this is great.

35:19

I really wish I was able to completely murder any idea of, like, an audience inside my head at any point. Do you know what I mean?

35:36

Are you thinking about an audience more?

35:42

Just the thing that you said of, like, when you start to imagine. You start to, like, really project things onto when people are experiencing your stuff. Sometimes it's helpful. It's funny when you say that thing about a demo or, like, playing a demo to someone and you suddenly hear it completely differently. It's like now when we were making the film, it was like anytime, Anytime. I had to watch an edit the whole way through. I wasn't really able to watch it alone. I had to bring a new person in completely. You see things or you feel things, whatever, that you've never felt before, you've never noticed before or whatever.

35:45

I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, why are you looking at me? Just chill the fuck out.

36:13

Well, you know.

36:16

And you'd be like.

36:18

I'd see where your eyes widen. No, true. I mean, nightmare experience. To watch this film with me, I'd have to say, for anyone that had to do it, I'd give you great. Thanks. It is horrible because obviously the vibe would be kind of like. I'd press play on it and then I'd kind of sit like this the whole time.

36:19

Do you think we should say the name of our film?

36:33

Oh, God, yeah.

36:35

It's called.

36:36

Sorry.

36:39

The Moment.

36:40

Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

36:41

That's it.

36:43

That's it.

36:43

That's it. I don't think we need to, like, say anything else about it. About it? No. Then just watch it it's fine. Yeah.

36:44

Well, hopefully. Oh, my God. If you guys don't like it, there's.

36:49

Only 100 people watching this. All our friends.

36:54

Thanks, guys.

36:57

I think they. I think they were that I. This is my prediction, right. I feel like when I'm suddenly aware.

36:58

Of the audience, when this comes, what.

37:04

We were talking about, then we're being met up. We were just talking about it. Now we're going to talk about it. My thought is when this comes out, that's sort of like. I mean, I don't even want to, like, be too generous when you say this comes out. This podcast, podcast, video. I don't even know where this goes. Whatever. When this comes out, I RECKON There'll be 5,000 people who are like interested in it. And then I think after the first five minutes, there'll be a huge drop off.

37:05

Wow. I've got a completely.

37:31

And then I think maybe like 100 people will stay to the end because we're like banging on like, la, la, la.

37:32

I have a different theory. I have a different theory. I think more than 5,000. All of them get the analytics back a 24. I think it will be top to bottom because we'll add in like explosion sounds, right?

37:38

Oh, that's cool.

37:52

And sort of there's gonna be one.

37:52

When you do that, right.

37:54

Like some ticking time and stuff like that. Things that drive up tension.

37:56

You know what else I actually think? I think actually maybe like Even less then 5,000 people will watch this because actually what will happen is there'll be some clips that have appear on TikTok.

37:59

Keep breaking the fourth wall, and then.

38:12

People will just watch them instead. Oh, they were funny there. Let's put that up.

38:13

I have a skewed perspective because I've watched all of your interviews, like in full.

38:16

Right?

38:20

Yeah, Every podcast. I really like the Emma Chamberlain one. Yeah, that was a really good one. Yeah, they're all great. I really like the one you did with that. There was a lady talking to you and you're on a stage. You had a big white dress on.

38:20

Oh, that was. Wow. You watched that? That was. Was that for Resident Advisor?

38:34

Yes.

38:39

Yeah, I also thought that was.

38:40

I thought she was really good.

38:42

I thought I was. Okay, well, I thought I was.

38:43

Yes. I mean, like, she allowed you to be amazing.

38:45

I thought it was quite funny in that.

38:48

Yeah, you were great. I thought you were really fucking.

38:50

I felt. I felt funny.

38:52

You know why?

38:54

I was tiny bit hungover, like today. Are you a bit hungover?

38:55

I kind of. I didn't. Because I mean, we.

38:59

We went out last night.

39:02

We kind of went to this sort of, like, vodka place. By recommendation of Sean Price Williams Russian Vodka Bar.

39:03

Is that what it's called?

39:09

Yeah, it was. No, because it wasn't that one. Because we wanted to go to that one that was, like, called something. Whatever.

39:10

I don't know.

39:16

And Sean orders a carafe of garlic vodka.

39:17

Disgusting.

39:21

Some people are really into it.

39:21

And horseradish.

39:22

And horseradish vodka tastes like a Sunday roast. Yeah. And anyway, I actually didn't. I felt kind of great this morning.

39:23

Well, I drank a bottle of wine in the scene that we were filming.

39:30

Yeah. And we did offer you up just, like, normal fluid, like water or coloured water. But what I like about you is obviously your method. Exactly. And you went, well, I need to chug the wine or else. How are you gonna get the correct kind of.

39:34

Yeah.

39:47

You know.

39:48

Yeah. I mean, don't put that out there. What else is going on in your.

39:48

Life, Amy, you're such a good interviewer.

39:53

And keeping us on track.

39:56

No, you are.

39:57

You are steering us to some kind of a destination.

39:58

Yeah. I really like this question. What else is going on in my life? I like that you asked what sort of the future holds.

40:00

Do you think you'd ever write something and then not direct it, or would you be, like, having a breakdown about that?

40:05

I like directing. I like. Right, guys, that's the scoop. I really enjoyed writing with Bertie. Bertie Brandes, who's co writer of this Moment. You know, the way that we would write would be, like, sitting together, kind of doing impressions and, like, yapping and then writing that down. It feels really, like, generative or whatever. But I really enjoy being on set and doing. You know, so. No, I mean, I don't know. I don't think. I don't know if I would write something to. I think I'd direct other people's writing.

40:12

Yeah, I was gonna ask that. You would if someone else wrote you something.

40:42

I think so. I think so. Because that's like making a music video someone else wrote this on. Okay. What about you? Do you think you ever want to. Obviously you want to act and do more acting, but would you ever want to write and direct or anything?

40:46

I am writing.

40:57

Yeah, you are.

40:59

You've read the thing.

41:01

I've read Bets.

41:02

You read the thing, though.

41:03

Okay. Yeah.

41:04

Do you know what I'm talking about?

41:05

Yeah.

41:06

Yeah. Okay.

41:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

41:10

So I'm gonna. I'm gonna start writing that, like, actually, like, anyways. That's exciting, you know?

41:12

And when do you want to start doing that?

41:19

I don't. I'. Oh, wow.

41:21

Crazy.

41:23

I started in 2025.

41:23

Wow. And would you want to direct that or not?

41:27

Well, this is the thing. I right now have no interest in directing.

41:29

Really?

41:34

Yeah, I. You know what? I actually don't think I have the. I know. I. I mean, I feel like from watching you work, there is a lot of, like, instinct and just taste involved, which I think you have. I do have, but I don't think I have the technical understanding. Like, you. You understand light. Yeah, very well. And I. I just like, really don't. Like, I. I have no idea how to get a certain look with light. Like, I don't understand. And maybe in. I know that there are some people who just like, work with great teams who can figure that out, but I wouldn't even understand how to like, communicate interest, the language. I could bring a. Like a reference. But, you know, and I think stuff like that, it's like. I think you have such a style. You've really, like, honed and worked through and like, maybe if I did, you know, do stuff for long enough, I could find.

41:35

I think you would find it easy and genuinely. I think you would find it easy because it's like watching you record music with AG&FINN. It's honestly a very similar process because it's like, even if it's like. Even if you're speaking about it in kind of abstract terms, that's like, you also like speaking. Speaking about it, you know, And I think any technical knowledge that I have of light or photography or anything like that has. I didn't like, start with that. I like, you know, it just kind of kept accumulating or whatever. But it's really like, you know, I also know people that don't. That direct really well or take photos really well that don't have, like, don't have the kind of technical language for it. I think it is a technical. Yeah, no, you know, I think you could.

42:37

Yeah, I think. I think I'd be. I'd be very nervous to. I think I respect directors so much and maybe I even like, put too much respect.

43:23

Yeah, maybe.

43:32

But, like, I think I also. I would just. I would wanna. If I ever did it, I would want to like, come at this level that was like, oh, she's like, not coming to play. Just like, have a real, like, point of view. Dance, have a point of view. And like, I think it would take me a while to like, figure out that language visually for. I mean, maybe not.

43:34

Maybe I don't know, I mean, you've.

43:58

Almost like, you know what the other thing is? The fucking edit. My God.

44:00

That is.

44:05

That is like. Like I. That. Yeah, I think like, just logistically I. I probably could, yeah, like shoot a film, whatever. Like I would have to like hone the language and all of that shit. But like the patience. I'm not patient.

44:06

I think you would be able to do it, but it's more like you would. It would be so unenjoyable. Yeah, because you move. It's also again so interesting about the way that you work or like, you know, when you were recording in Paris, I was really impressed by how. How in a way that I like don't work of like how instinctive and how quickly you move through things, like when you're making stuff. And it was like, say, for example, for a peek behind the curtain, if I'm allowed to. What I found particularly interesting is that you, Ag and Finn don't really talk necessarily about like the concept you're trying to achieve. Like you don't like chat too much about it. You just, just straight up do it and it's really reactive and like someone will make something. Someone will like jump off of that. You're like, alright. You'll be like sort of there writing something on your phone and you're like, alright, cool. I think I've got an idea. Go into the booth. Yeah, the microphone area. And just do it. And it's like. And even after that, no one's like talking about it too. Trying to over intellectualize what it is. Because all of the intelligence is in the actual work. You know, it's like you're like speaking through the work and you're like, that's it. Which I find really cool actually and really bold because I'm just like, you know, I. You obviously know me, I love to yap. And I also know that like when I'm doing something, I'm like talking about it. Even though I think that's helpful for me. And I talk about things so intensely and I was like, this means this and this means this and this. It actually like all of that yapping doesn't necessarily mean something unless it finds its way into the thing.

44:24

You know, I rarely, I rarely will go back and work on a song twice, really. Like, I don't mean, I don't mean like, like we will, yeah, we'll work on the song. But generally speaking, it's like I don't sit and live with something and then be like, oh, actually, like I should change the verse. On this, like, a couple of times that's happened. Happened with some of the Wuthering Heights stuff.

45:49

Cool.

46:20

But, like, generally speaking, I'm like, the most spontaneous idea is the thing. And whenever I do have to go back in and finesse stuff, I just find it then it feels a bit more like work. And so that's why I think for me, with, like, an edit, obviously, you're kind of going in many, many, many times and sort of reshaping and moving, and that would be really hard for me.

46:21

It makes a lot of sense that you are. So, I mean, speaking about, like, the not wanting to be bored or whatever, and, like, as in a positive way, it's kind of cool that you're like, oh, running with something while it's still got magic or whatever. And actually, it's something that I wish that my job allowed for more because it's like, say, for example, I'm like, when. When we did. When we did the music video for guests. That's the. That is the most condensed timeline I will ever be able to get to work on. You know, like, basically receiving a song, thinking of an idea, shooting it, and then putting it out in the space of about a week is crazy mental. No one should ever do it. I don't recommend that in terms of, like, making stuff.

46:49

I do.

47:33

Yeah, you do. I mean, I do, actually. I was honestly. Yeah, you are right. I actually loved doing that because it was like. It's what you're sort of saying of getting to kind of keep that magic really in it and really have a kind of sense of adrenaline with it, and it feel really vital and immediate or whatever.

47:34

Yeah. I'm leaving.

47:54

Right, Great. Thanks so much, Charlie. So, wait, what do we do for the final.

47:56

Should we do, like, Quick Fire?

48:00

Oh, my God. Can I ask you a really fun question? This might take more than five. Who knows? So Bertie actually came up with a really good game where she said, imagine we are trying to resurrect you, and there's a cauldron, and you have to put in four items that would bring you back from the dead. And you also have to think about what song would be playing. And then sort of you put in the things. So, for example, I can do yours, you can do mine.

48:01

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. There's the cauldron. In the cauldron goes a carabiner. Because I know that you really like them. I think you'd be trying to, like, reach for it, model it for them.

48:30

I'd be reaching for a Caribbean A.

48:49

I think Paulina, your girlfriend, she'd just be in the cauldron. Throw her in the cauldron.

48:52

Doesn't that sacrifice her? We'll see.

48:57

But you have to come back to the life to say that she's going get help, and her little hat is sort of bobbling on the surface.

48:59

That's really sweet.

49:07

She's holding onto the carabiner, you know, kind of pull herself out. Like that kind of thing.

49:08

Sort of real.

49:13

And then Robert Eggers film.

49:14

Yeah.

49:16

And then I think. What things you like.

49:17

You also kind of need to sort of span sort of my entire identity sort of in these four objects.

49:25

Right, okay. So I've got your girlfriend and a carabiner.

49:29

A carabiner. Quite queer.

49:33

I mean, there's probably like a. It's a bit boring. There's like a camera in there. Maybe it's actually a phone more than a camera. Because I feel like a phone more than a camera. Well, yeah, because then you can yap away to all of your friends and you can also take pics.

49:35

Yeah, no, that's a theory, Right? Yeah. Maybe it's just a bummer that it's a phone.

49:47

Okay, fine. It's a camera.

49:52

Okay. All right, cool. Camera. A camera that can make phone calls.

49:53

Well, no, because that's a phone, isn't it?

49:56

Yeah, that's a fun.

49:59

Yeah. But we'll put a camera in. There's a bit like a camera in. We'll put a camera in. And then I think you need a muse in there. So it's got to be like me or Timothy and. Yeah. And I'm going in.

50:00

Great. Got you. You know, Then he's stirring the pot.

50:11

He can. He. He's like this.

50:13

Great, great, great.

50:16

He's like this. Love, you know?

50:17

Love. Yeah.

50:19

And then the song that's playing is that role model song that you like.

50:20

Some protector.

50:24

How does it go?

50:24

Am I guilty?

50:25

Am I sorry? Do the party. And then you're like this coming out.

50:26

And I come out like that. Great.

50:33

And then you sort of are doing like that pose that you do in.

50:34

The mirror where you're like. What I do is I kick one knee out like that. You know, sort of one like that. And I kind of throw my jaw upwards. And I don't know. I was doing it. Your shoes. Yeah.

50:37

And anyways, so then you're.

50:46

You're a cauldron. Sorry about your feet.

50:47

So that's. Are you. Was that good?

50:49

That was amazing. I'm really happy with that.

50:51

Okay, great.

50:53

I'm really Happy with that. So it's you and Pauline on a.

50:53

Cauldron with a carabiner.

50:55

With a carabiner and a camera and Timothy. It's good. It's good, it's good. It speaks to my love of others. It speaks to my. How I'm made up of, you know, the people I love.

50:57

We make you.

51:09

So for you, you know, I don't want to be too reductive and say, like, you know, Bic lighter. And a pack of Parliaments.

51:11

And a strappy white top.

51:18

And a strappy white top. But I think that is a small package. Is one.

51:19

It's like a Ziploc bag.

51:23

Exactly. Ziploc bag. So it's sort of like almost brat in a bag. You know what I mean?

51:24

Right, so you are defining me by the fucking album, then.

51:29

Exactly.

51:31

Great.

51:32

But, you know, it's one shade. It's one shade. And so Ziploc bag, Parliament, Sigs, Bic lighter, strappy white top.

51:34

I haven't worn a strappy white top for a long time. And also, I've started smoking capris, actually.

51:44

Well, okay. But then this speaks to your history.

51:50

All right, fine.

51:52

Throw them in. I'd actually throw in trying to think something. How can I sort of do it without a Swedish flag? You know what I mean? Something that speaks to your love of Sweden. Does that disappoint you?

51:53

No, no, I think that's cool. But I don't think it should be.

52:04

The flag or like a, you know, a Swedish studio. Like, we could package up a little studio space, crush it down, throw it in. I do think it'd be quite good to chuck George in. Yeah, I know that's like, you know, you came up with doing Spouses in the Cauldron.

52:06

Yeah.

52:23

Let's put George in.

52:23

Let's put him in.

52:24

Head first, I think. Shirt unbuttoned.

52:25

Great.

52:28

You know what I mean? That kind of way. He's wearing a kind of silk shirt. He's like, oh, fuck, Chuck him in. And final. Final item is who's gonna stir it. Okay. The ones. The person stirring. I kind of want it to be. Or maybe it's me, if you don't mind. If you want me to stare it.

52:28

What's the song?

52:48

And then the song would be a lure Reed song. I think it would be Perfect Day. Yeah, that's quite nice.

52:49

So sad. Yeah, but that's.

52:56

You've got a bit of that in you.

52:58

Yeah.

53:00

All the other stuff was quite fun. Good to have an aura of sadness.

53:00

No, it is.

53:04

And I just do want to speak to your sort of. You're growing up and it's maybe like. Honestly, maybe it's the teapot necklace or something. Just to kind of throw it back.

53:05

To that from the new rave days.

53:12

From a new rave, a new rave teapot.

53:14

Because it's also. As well as some sadness, there's also a lot of embarrassment within me, actually.

53:15

Dang. Exactly. Maybe it's the marriage themselves.

53:19

I didn't feel it back then.

53:23

Yeah.

53:24

Yeah.

53:24

It's sort of.

53:25

Once the sheen of youth fades away.

53:27

It'S an embarrassed autopsy of youth. Yeah. I mean, that's like a Lou Reed song.

53:29

Yeah.

53:33

Any other quick fires or do we wrap it up?

53:35

No, I think it's done, isn't it? I'm so hungry.

53:36

Well, what's. What are you going to do this year? Just to wrap it up? Put out a movie.

53:39

We're putting a film out and. Yeah.

53:45

And we're continuing our collaboration, friendship, business partnership, entrepreneurial spirit will be on forbes duos under 40 this year. Love you so much.

53:48

Love you.

54:07

Thank you for talking to me for so long. Thanks.

54:07

Thanks to the one viewer still tuned in.

54:10

Hey, thanks.

54:12

Your mum and my dad.

54:13

I think my mum might have on board by now.

54:15

Okay.

54:17

I think your dad.

54:17

No, he's in till the end. He's on to the end.

54:18

Thanks, John.

54:19