EP5 - The Questions Keep Multiplying

Welcome to episode 5 of Beth's Dead. I'm Monica Padman and as usual I'm here with Elizabeth Blame and Andy Rosen. Hello. Okay so at the end of last episode we sort of you guys left us on a doozy that you know who this person is who was Beth and others. Yeah. Yeah. And it was in fact a, as you said, male East Coast professor in his 60s. Uh-huh. Well let's not get carried away. Well yeah no. He was a predator and he was behind this. So I think maybe we should walk through how you guys figured this out. For sure. I mean it's it's crazy because the guy kind of like unbeknownst to him led us to him. Because he sloppily gives away information in his panic. Right. And there were emails, comments on the website and also a Twitter account as Beth's brother specifically to tweet at me with frantic tweets. Oh my god. And the messages are all coming from not only different places but all these different people too. Yeah. Like they're spiraling. And in the meantime Andrea, our web person had wisely looked up the real estate records of the address connected to Beth's PayPal. Uh-huh. And to our surprise, you know. So family. Oh. It's creepy. Yeah. So creepy. That is not what you expect. Yeah. I of course assumed it was some like in-sell and abacement. Yeah. Very cliche, very classic. Which also would have been really creepy. Like there was something about the family that had this other tin. I don't even not explain it. But we're like not expecting that and like who in that family could do that. Yeah. So then Andrea pointed something else out, which I think you have an email Monica. There was a pattern in this person's comments. Okay. Yeah. Let me read this email from Andrea. It says, I will say all the emails so far have double spaces after periods. This is an unusual and old school typing style. Suggestive of an older user. HTML tends to strip double spaces after periods converting them to single spaces, which is why it wouldn't show up in the comments on your site or on Facebook. Whoa. Yeah. So she catches that the difference. And yes. So it's someone older. And then Tammy, our good friend who was holding your hand a little bit at this point. Uh-huh. More emotionally, I would say. Yeah. But she had like a really great take on everything. Oh. Which we have a clip because we interviewed her about this to see like what she remembered. And let's play that because it's it's kind of crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It was so creepy. I could tell it was a guy because of how he wrote the girl. But this is where I'm like your skills as a writer in a study of like human behavior is so valuable because I didn't obviously pick up on that. But you I think looking at those emails or hearing it on the podcast had a little bit of a red flag about they were through this lens of like this misogynistic guy. I wouldn't even say misogynistic. I would say and this might I don't even know if it's the writer me or if it's the part of me that really does go like full fan. To a way that can be weird. And like not that I've written these emails, but I can also feel do what I mean where it's a part of me is like, oh, I can see the tipping point. So even the fact that her name was bad, I forgot that. And I was like, Jesus, the sensation on you because it's also like as a listener, the clarity of your voice, like literal physical clarity. And that there's something very pure about it and very wholesome about the voice. And also there's something very pure about your guy's relationship. You know, and so even when you do very naturally like it sounds like get dirty or whatever, just get real. Like that there's there's a little something like you could feel with somebody who's got something repressed who has his own issues, who has his own obsessions. You could feel him poking the bear. That makes sense. Okay, so between Tammy and Andrea, we now know it is an older person, a man. So an older man who uses double spaces. Yeah, very specific, which didn't narrowed it down to one person in the house, but obviously we couldn't be like 100% sure. But then we get a smoking gun. So there's an email that comes from Natasha, one of the characters that he's playing and he slips up and reveals a big clue. So I think we have that. Do you see that email Monica? I do. I'm going to read it. Okay, another email from Natasha subject. What is happening? I just visited your site. As confused as I am about all of my and Andrea's comments being removed, I am honestly a bit hurt that you seem to have removed all of Beth's as well. That feels disrespectful. Is it that you just want us to stop messaging you about Beth's death? We can do that. We just wanted to make sure you knew. Is this about some IP address, shit? I didn't know that Beth and us shared an IP address until I looked into it. Yes. Here it is. This is where. This is where our web person really cracks the code. Don't we have Andrea kind of explaining that to us when we talked to her recently? Yes, yes, I have that. So Andrea, yes, you are our digital guru. Will you just walk us through your experience of this story? Sure. I'll say I went through my notes this morning and I was getting teary eyed how upsetting it was. It was very manipulative this person, this catfish, and had to me all of those red flags of like abuse scam, like the urgency that this person created with you. So I have the specifics of these horrible messages that you were getting via email. I also want to make sure Andrea, you can speak to I think a really big turning point was the big piece of evidence that we were even able to share with the authorities that really was like this is the guy. Totally. So once the real person knew that you were suspicious, I have an email from Natasha to you, Elizabeth, and it says, is this about some IP address? Shit. I didn't know that Beth and us shared an IP address until I looked into it trying to figure this out. I'm not surprised Beth lives in the apartment next door. We agreed to fib about not knowing each other so that we could all talk a little more freely. Beth has had very scary experiences with stalkers. And they mentioned like having barbecues and listening to totally married together. But once you were on to him with the IP addresses, he writes from either Natasha or Anders, if you want us to prove something we're going to Europe tomorrow, I can send you messages from there. But of course the real person was traveling to Europe within the next couple days of that message. He was speaking at a specific event that was publicized. Yes, and I remember you sending me his Facebook, like his professional Facebook page that's like he is speaking at this event. Right. Yeah, that's sealed it. Yeah. Okay. So the IP address matched with the city where he was speaking. Exactly. Oh, boy. So then after that, there was another location tag that happened with him. So we knew for sure it was him. I was shocked to realize that he has a not only a full-time job, they have a career that weren't speaking all over the world. This person has a fully formed life, quite an impressive slate of things. And I, the sheer volume of emails and messages and comments we had received. And then also the sheer volume of messages, emails to come at me in the next little bit here, until we finally found a way to stop this, was shocking. Like that was another shift of like, oh, like now we know who it is, which in some way has made it way creepier. I will say I was relieved that he does have a life and he has things at stake and he's traveling. Yeah. I mean, my main concern is is this person going to come turn us into a flesh dress. Yeah. So I'm going to read a couple of the emails that you were getting harassed with a ton of emails that you guys were not responding to. You were just letting them sort of flow in coming from Beth's email. Elizabeth, right now I'm just furious at the unfairness of Beth's death. It's hitting me so hard that I actually regret bringing my son into this world. Of all the responses to my sister's death, yours has stuck with me. I don't know what involvement Beth had with your podcast or site. I don't care. All I know is that she thought highly enough of you to give you an amount of money. I promise she never spent on herself. And now you seemingly don't give a damn that she's dead. If there's a reason on this end that you're not responding, it probably could have been cleared up with a single phone call or email. You couldn't be bothered. If there's a reason on your end that you're actively ignoring these messages, it'd better be a damn good one. I don't want any more contact with you. I just want you to keep in mind that a young woman reached out to her most vulnerable and depressed. She thought so highly of you. And now you're completely ignoring her death. If you don't have a damn good excuse, I sincerely hope that that haunts you to your grave. Oh, well, evil. Yeah, that one makes me like so angry. This just like triggered something in me because I will say the three of us like recording all these episodes listening to the Beth emails. Maybe sometimes we seemed insensitive if we're like giggling a little bit. But it is kind of humorous looking back on it and being like, this is so outrageous. But what maybe people listening to this don't know is that I already shared this that my parents had died when I was younger. Grief is really traumatizing to me. And for this person to have built a relationship and then caused this death. Yeah. Triggering a grief response in me was like so calculated. And I'm just going to say kind of cruel. It is. You know, and then to harp on that through these incoming emails. Use it. Using it as like leverage to get you because this person knows you. They know you. And so they know what like in a relationship when that person knows what to say to hurt you the most in a bizarre way. Yeah. This person was doing that. Yeah. Now do you think this affected like the family? Like were you guys like, I mean not not but the whole energy of the house. I sure was just so intense. I didn't sleep. Yeah. I contemplated us going to stay in a hotel. I was, you know, we're just a little podcasters, you know, we're living in a tiny little house with no fence or it would be so easy to access us at the time. Now we're in a fortress with it. I'm just kidding. But yeah. So it definitely messed with the vibes for sure. It's scary. I understand parasocial relationships, which are the one-sided imaginary relationships. We form with celebrities and fictional characters by consuming media about them. I understand them. I had them with you guys. No, but the difference is he was getting something actually back from you because of the emails. The emails of how man's talking on the show. Yeah. Yeah. So the parasocial relationship is completely in your head. I mean it is imaginary. You feel like you know the person only based on what you're consuming. But you don't have contact. But that yes, I think many people can relate, especially now with so many podcasts, which is such an intimate medium, social media, where you know what people ate yesterday. Right. Yeah. The ability to form these relationships is so easy. It's scary. Yeah. This is at the heart of this whole thing. Yes. And I guess I was just saying in some ways I get it. I get from their point of view. Not in this extreme. You feel violated when you find out you've been like lied to by these people, which is also funny because it's almost a two-way street of trust. Like they think they know and they want to be a part of your life. In some ways when we're upset that they've lied, we were engaging in that same relationship of how could someone lie to us? If it was a stranger off the street, I wouldn't give a shit if someone lied. But this is like a fan or a person who can't hurt that person. That's what ultimately happened was this person, I mean what I was upset about was having been manipulated in such kind of specific to me ways. Also like I was, I looked at porn. There was like a sexual element to it and when we get to the Natasha Anders thing, that kind of plays out more. And in this person's motive, I think I feel like we can all sort of agree they didn't want to be caught. That they had had this relationship with you that you didn't know the nature of it, right? They're different characters going back and forth. This could have gone on for years and years. That's what's so crazy and creepy about it. Had we not uncovered the truth, had it not all fallen apart, we don't know. You may have never known this, which is what's so absurd. It's so much more sinister because of the amount that had already been done. Like the sheer level of joy. Yeah, also what was his end game? I feel there's also an element of wanting to, some of the spotlight. Sure. Right? Like now's my moment. Yeah. That's another thing I would like to know without asking this person. Was this calculated from the beginning or was it a slippery slope and he just rode the twists and turns as they came? And was he himself surprised by where it was or was he thrilled by where it was? He's like this idiot. Oh my God. She's so fun. I like to believe or I believe that they really came to enjoy the power of it. I think that that is what was the biggest thing to them. And we see that in them wanting to have the comments put back on the site and just the amount of like puppeteering that they were doing of you behind the scenes and also in the public of getting their questions answered on our show, I think they felt that they had so much power. They were like the silent producer of our show. Yeah. And maybe and we don't know about this person's life. I mean, we know some things, but maybe he feels so out of control in his life that this was like the strand. This was the piece that he felt he could have some control over which is why he spent so much energy and time. And isn't there like there's also this like potential weird disappointing world where he's just like, I don't know, it's like kind of fun. Do you know my god? I really think that could be or on that complete opposite spectrum or no, we're talking like crazy multiple person. Now whatever, but there is this other one, I was like, yeah, I'm just like doing it. No, I think he loves that would be honestly the most upsetting. I want him to at least care. Yeah, yeah. Well, you I think that's a good still one. And I want him to find me a track. So what? Well, you keep reading because I think that upcoming emails might put that idea to bed. Okay, the subject is this really hurts. Elizabeth, I thought I was done speaking with you, but Natasha, Beth's neighbor and friend, Beth's neighbor now adjusted to yeah, like, oh, yeah, I said that she's in 4c. Beth was in 5a. And friend formerly, I guess, just told me that you'd removed all of Beth's comments from your site. As her brother, I can't express how much that hurts me. I haven't even read them, but those comments were some of my sisters last contributions to this world. I started crying when Natasha told me you to erase them. That just doesn't seem right. If there's a reason for all of your actions, please just tell me. I'm sorry that my last message was so angry. Beth's passing has really destroyed me. Yeah, quite a different tune from his previous message. Now he's worried about the comments on the website. He's trying different tactics for sure. PS from Natasha, Elizabeth, if you're the good person, I think you are. Oh my god, they're doing everything they can. If you're the good person, I think you are. You need to deal with Beth's brother just for his sake. Please contact him somehow. He is clearly going out of his mind at the thought that his sister, who clearly loved you, is having some of her last words deleted. I admit I'd have the same reaction. Please, she ends a lot of these with please exclamation. And also all baiting me to call this number. Did either of you ever call the number? No, we didn't, but somebody else does later. Support for Beth's dead comes from Roe. Roe offers the first FDA-approved GLP-1 pill for weight loss at the lowest cost around. 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I hate protein shakes, like I hate them. They're chalky, they make me feel weirdly full, and they taste like fake dessert. And I always end up buying one, trying it once, and then never touching it again. So when I tried grams, I was pretty skeptical. And honestly, if you didn't tell me it was protein, I would just think it was a delicious drink. I totally agree. It's light and clear. It's more like a lemonade or a peach tea than I would say, than a shake. Yes. I'll either drink it in the morning or sometimes during that 3 p.m. slump when you just need a little something, I'll drink grams or when I want something that actually works as a snack, but doesn't feel heavy. I just shake it with water, add ice, and that's it. No blender, no mess. And that monica is the part that surprised me. One scoop has 20 grams of protein and only 80 calories. It's filtered so it's super easy under stomach, which is why, for the first time, I've actually been consistent with protein. 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Elizabeth, sitting down and talking with Beth's brother Jason, who was a complete wreck, he told us that Beth donated a thousand dollars to you just because she liked you. Is that true? I would say that if you don't think my late friends comments are worthy of your site, you owe it to her to give that money back. But you can't because Beth is dead. Please fix this. I know. By these are from the same day. What if like the day before this drops, we send him a thousand dollars to that PayPal address? Well, we can't. We can't because it comes from I am very grateful. I mean, not that you couldn't have found where we lived before. But like when you send it's linked to an address. And at the time I had written to Beth and said, was this a typo? I can send you back $900 if you only met a hundred. Yeah. And she was like, no. And thank God. Because I would have just served up our address on a silver platter. Oh my god. So for that, I am grateful. We're also grateful for the thousand dollars. Yes. Let's be honest. We did need it. Natasha, if this is reaching an intern instead of Elizabeth, my friend gave her literally a thousand dollars. And I'm the only one who's still looking out for her. If you have any conscious at all, you could at least get Elizabeth to read my messages. And you didn't feel the impulse to say, we know what's going on. We know who you are. Stop. No, we have those fantasies for sure. I mean, I almost called that number because I just wanted to be like, where is this going? Is that also? Did you guys feel? And I don't think you should feel this way. But I could see myself feeling duped and embarrassed and like, how could I possibly like, I'm dumb. Well, Monica, listen, you mean I'm dumb, but Andy and I on the drive home from our last recording, I was like, I'm a little worried that I'm just coming across as the world's biggest idiot because and I know when we go back through the Natasha emails, that's going to become even more apparent. And also like, my ego is stroked and this whole thing is a little bit humiliating, but I also think it goes to show how, you know, I'm a relatively intelligent person. Yes. I work and stuff. I'm functioning. I can contribute to society. Yeah. And I got so duped not only by, but by Natasha, by Anders, by Frank, you know, the list goes on. Yes. Yeah, my take away trying to like, console you after last. The last recording was diving into these deep emails in that. And I think I mentioned this before, I am in awe sort of of the craft of some of them. So yeah, I don't think so. I think there's probably a few outlier emails that in hindsight will look ridiculous. Yeah. But for the most part, it's like pretty crazy. I hope that this podcast shows it could be anyone. It could have been any of us. Okay, getting back into these emails, this one's from Natasha. Yeah, this one's this one's insane. I just noticed that in addition to Beth's Anders and my comments being removed from your site, that quote, ass hat Frank's were as well. This puzzle me since I thought you were making some mistakes based on the fact that we shared a network. But if that theory is correct, is Frank actually named friend Cisco? What? She's trying to now justify the fact that Frank shares a knife with them. I see. But if that theory is correct, is Frank actually named Francisco, we have a group of people in our apartment who have listened to totally married together a few times while we barbeque. What? What a wonderful apartment complex for our podcast. I know. It's the whole. It's like the mother ship. Oh my god. Um, Francisco is an older man who has attended perhaps twice. If you are making a mistake involving a shared IP address, I assume that Francisco would share it as well since he is in our building too. I can imagine him making Frank's comments sad as it is to think that if this is what is happening, it is truly sad. I've been recommending your podcast to many of the couples in our building. If they're listening and commenting have negatively affected Beth's case in some way, it is so incredibly unjust. I'm getting the feeling that you just don't care what the truth is, but I have to stand up for Beth. I don't know what you talked about together. So perhaps she said something offensive or untrue, but I know she clearly felt a lot of love for you Elizabeth. And I'm not saying that a thousand dollars should buy your friendship, but it should be enough for you to give these messages a chance. This is the part where I'm disappointed in him. You know, like the barbeque thing in Francisco, like, how dumb do you think we, like you put in a year and a half of all the good stuff and you're going to let it all go down the drain with these moves? Do better. Do better. Do better. Okay, but the insanity does not even stop there. There are many more emails. Oh my gosh. Well, I think let's jump ahead to an email actually that you sent Elizabeth to Andrea about really how to make this all go away. What does it say? So the update is that my friend security person said that I absolutely need to file a police report. So I'm in the process and the detective said that under no circumstances, should I respond to anything just to ignore everything and act as though I have completely moved on because this is all about manipulation and control. And even if I respond negatively, that's what he craves. Probably especially he just wants to know that he has disrupted my life. I'm so glad we haven't been responding. Yeah. So we have some dear friends who have a special security person. Right. And they put us in touch with the LAPD Department of cyber crimes. There was enough content to warrant it being a harassment. Yes. Yeah, there was, there were a couple threats that the detective pointed out in an email that that was enough. I remember how he phrased it was like, listen, I have enough to get the local PD involved and legitimately like get it a warrant and seize computers and stuff. And it was with express like that makes us a little uncomfortable. We don't want to do that. He said from my experience, usually in these cases, people don't show up physically because we are so afraid that this person is going to knock knock at the door. Yeah. But he's like, if you don't want to press charges, do I have your blessing to call him and basically told us like, I'll scare the shit out of him. And so at the time, I was like, I do not want to ruin this person's life. I've already ruined their work. No, just kidding. But truly, I just want him to stop. And my hope would be this sort of intervention from a detective would make him stop this and any future inclinations he had. Right. To do this sort of thing to people because we don't know. We don't know if you're the only, we want you to be the only one, but we don't know. Well, now having done more research into this person. Yeah. I would bet that we were not the only ones and we are not the only ones. But you were his golden goose. I hope so. I'd like to think about that. I don't want to take that from you. So let's hop back and let's hear a couple more emails that are showing just how much he is spiraling. Okay. They get wild. Last attempt. All caps. Please, if you have any sense of decency, you will give this message to Elizabeth. It concerns my friend who gave her a huge amount of money and it will be my last message to her. The least she could do is read it. Elizabeth, I am so frustrated and sad. The lack of response to Beth's death can only mean two things. One, that you just don't give a shit that this girl you've corresponded with is dead. Or two, that you think some part of this story is untrue. I think highly enough of you to assume that it's not the first option. I don't know what would make you just trustful of our little group me, Anders and Beth, beyond the fact that I did. I just go. Beyond the fact that I didn't mention that Beth and I knew each other already and live next door. But I thought Beth would mention that if she were comfortable. She knew other people in our apartment listened to totally Mary because I got them to. So it's best of fine that she's a former model living next to a Norwegian couple would probably be saying too much. If other people in our apartment building were commenting as well, it's news to me, but we would all be on the same network. I can't verify everything Beth talked to about because I don't know what she said. Knowing her, if she said anything untrue, it was because of her extreme paranoia. This is what I know with a hundred percent certainty that my friend Beth was the former model she described in her first message to you. That she not only respected you but felt a deep love and appreciation for you. That she gave you a thousand dollars she didn't owe you. That she was engaged and then dumped by her fiancee and she died at the age of 25. These things are all true. I swear on my life and the lives of my unborn children. If you still don't believe that, think about these things for a second. What did Beth have to gain by giving you any money? Let alone so much. What did I have to gain months ago when I introduced myself to you by saying I had a crush on you? Great question. What did I have to gain by trying to explain my spiritual beliefs to you? Okay. Also, just jumping out really quick from the email. We're going to really get into that next week. The spiritual beliefs element of all this because it is very relevant. Yes, it is. Okay. So back to the email. Why would Beth's brother literally beg you to just call him? What could he possibly be asking about if he weren't asking about Beth? Why would any of us make comments on your site and write you emails if we weren't who we said and didn't believe what we claimed? I'm dying to know. I know. Your actions suggest that you not only doubt everything I'm saying, but that you're certain that these are all lies. The thousand dollars alone should at least give you pause. What kind of liar gives away thousand dollars to a stranger? This is the last time I'll try to convince you of anything. Beth's gone so she doesn't give a shit if you slander her or believes lies about her. Her brother was only ever seeking you out to figure out what happened to his sister. He's now too busy laying her to rest to care about you. I'm the only one who still cares for you and how you feel about me and Beth, but you evidently don't trust me at all. You didn't even bother asking me to explain something or answer a question. I don't know why. I don't know why I would seek the trust of someone who's evidently so quick to believe shitty things about me. So I'm giving up. Beth's life was a succession of people she trusted making quick ill-informed judgments about her and abandoning her. I suppose I'm glad that she isn't here to feel that you had done the very same thing. Neither I nor Anders will ever write you again, unsolicited, or try to comment on your site. Feel free not to believe this message, but if you completely ignore it, I will have to admit that you're not the person I thought you were. I'm incredibly saddened by whatever has happened here, but I've done everything I can now. Did they stay to their word or did they follow up? Trying again. This is from Anders. New angle. Same building, same barbecue person, partner of Natasha. Just remind everybody. I know that Natasha promised we wouldn't write again, but much as I love my wife, she doesn't get to make promises on my behalf. I'm writing from London. Check the IP address if you think we're liars just to say that my wife is hurting terribly for multiple reasons. Whatever is happening with Tololayme is adding insult to injury. Somewhere somebody made a mistake. Oh my god. I don't know what you think has happened, so I can't really address it. I think my wife has gone into the details of what she thinks the problem might be. Our neighbors are also listening to your podcast and being on the same network. I just want to say that Natasha has tried to contribute so much to you, Elizabeth, both on the site and in correspondence. I know because I had to translate so much of it. Excellent. She didn't do it for your show or to gain anything from you. My wife did that because she honestly cares about you guys and the issues your podcast addresses. For her to be cut out with no explanation is crushing her. I hate to be rude, but it's completely against the messages of totally married. There's a problem and you've stopped communicating entirely. Please, I know we've asked us a hundred times by now, but it's such a simple request. Please communicate with us at least once. We're in the process of moving back to Norway, but I didn't think we'd be losing all contact with you. Elizabeth, I'm a huge fan of you guys, but my wife and Beth, I think, actually really loves you as a person. I'm sure she sees you as some kind of kindred spirit, with all the things going on for us right now, moving, pregnancy, a funeral for a friend, seeming to have lost your friendship is destroying my wife. As I think Beth's brother asked, could you at least have the courtesy to tell us to go fuck ourselves if that's how you feel? Please, this just isn't right. Though I don't care what you think of me, I can't sit idle while I watch my wife suffering and wondering how we offended you guys. I didn't know they were pregnant. That was just news to me. Oh, my God, for a second, I was like, oh my God, they were. Totally forgot. My God. Okay, my last message. Who's this from? Anders again. Elizabeth and co. No. Finally, is this maybe a shout out because I feel like I haven't, this person never mentions my name. They're asking about an intern. Isn't it possible? I'm feeling the emails. Couldn't someone try my email address? I'm easy to find. Like, oh, come on. No, it's offensive. So rude. It is offensive. Obviously, it was a love with Elizabeth. I mean, yeah. Or he thought you wouldn't get dude so easily. These are the questions. Okay. My last message from Anders, Elizabeth and co. I'm writing to you from Oslo, where my wife and I are in the process of moving. Again, check the goddamn IP address. If you don't believe we are who we say, this will be my last message to you. Natasha and I have tried every method to explain ourselves. I could even send you our passports and a photo of Beth's corpse in her casket. And at this point, I don't think it would do any good. Show us the body. Oh my God. I would like to make one humble and desperate request though. Is there some way that Beth's comments on your site could be preserved? Wow. Wow. Holy shit. Oh my God. I don't mean that you have to post them though. That would be nice. I mean that these comments are some of Beth's last contributions to the world, simple as they are. You may not believe that, but please, if there's even the tiniest chance I'm telling the truth, you must submit that it's wrong to destroy them. Please, give me some way to copy them or send them to Beth's brother. That is all I will ever ask of you again. My wife is still hoping that you will contact her that she can fix anything that's bothering you and that you can go back to being friendly acquaintances. I know that will never happen sadly. I introduced her to your podcast, which she loved. She is hurting so much now though that I'm really regretting it. I'm going to do your courtesy that I wish you had given my wife. I will say goodbye. We really do wish you the best. You know it's crazy. I'm hearing again how important the comments are to them. He has all the emails, right? So I'm envisioning him like he has like a file literally. He's printed out all these. He does have the book and what's missing for him is these comments for him to literally go back fondly and look at. Like it's really wild how important that is to him. Creepy. Just had a thought. He might fucking love that we're doing this podcast. Of course. I mean this does bring up an ethical question that we haven't really talked about yet, which is, are we giving a platform to someone we shouldn't be giving a platform to? Right. Right. This is a big question. I know it's a head scratcher. Is it ethical what we're doing? Yeah, because like he was writing this whole story and now it's getting published by like a major, a major outlet. I don't know if it's an ethical dilemma though, really, because it's our story to tell. He fucked with us. Yeah, it's true, but it's it's almost like is it everything he ever wanted to have this spotlight that we are then we're just being nice. You know, that's what what are the bad ethical dilemma there? Reverse consequences. I mean, listen to how much he wanted to have this full tomb of his work and now we're putting it out there. It's like, oh, not only are there no consequences for any of this, but also here's all of your dreams and I was coming true. Right. Weird. Well, I mean, it's like not to take it here, but this is part of it. You know, the big conversation about if there's a mass shooting or something, is it ethical or good to name the person or how much should it be talked about because that's what they wanted. Right. Well, the fear is always that that has then inspired other people to go to the same things because the need for fame and attention is so strong. In this case, I challenge anyone else to try to do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do anyone. It just this seems like a very unique individual, but maybe I'm wrong maybe a I think this happens. Yeah. Ugh. I mean, I guess we're gonna just keep doing it. I know. I feel like I'm not gonna worry about that to Andy's point if this is a little cherry on top for him then I guess so be it. Good for him. So maybe to sort of cover our ethical bases or at least so I feel like justice is served. We make sure we change all the names in this podcast. Yes, so we're not giving credit. I wanna do that for our safety on a sort of, like I have other motives for that than the ethics of it. Yeah, I get a lot of reasons to do that. Like how do you feel about that? I think that's really important and smart, honestly. Ethics on all sides really because also, what if we're wrong? I mean, I don't think we're wrong about who this is, but I don't know what if we are. So I think names should be changed. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. What are we doing, guys? Well, what are we even doing making this show? I know. I can't help like going back and listening to all of this. It's still just staying with me and I have so many questions and the questions keep multiplying. What was this motherfucker's end game? I know, I mean, what if you had called the number? Well, the detective, he did call. The detective called the number and I'm curious if it was a number he had specifically for me to call and so he answered and I'm curious if he was surprised. It was a male voice at the end. I'm curious if he actually believed it was truly an LAPD detective, which it was and it wasn't just Andy with a mustache on, you know? But the detective then, the feedback to me was that he kind of pondered off on his son who he claimed has like mental illness. But I guess he answered the phone from the detective as his real name and... I think he just said hello and the detective said, hi, this is Officer So-and-so from the LAPD, is this So-and-so? And he said, yeah, and hopefully was kind of shitting his pants. Right. And anyway, the call was successful in that his emails and the harassment totally stopped at that moment in time and the detective felt confident that he got through to him, although he did not take full ownership of it in any way whatsoever. Right, there's still all these questions around it. Yes. We're in the middle of recording this podcast. We're in the middle of it. We don't really know for sure how it ends. And we are going to go on a quest to find out some of these answers. If you want to listen to all the best dead ad free, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can also chat with other listeners, watch live streams, get bonus episodes and more. That's at patreon.com slash best dead. Best dead is presented by armchair experts Monica Padman and nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lane, and Monica Padman, additional engineering by Rob Hollis, and music and sound by Andy Rosen. Special thanks to Tammy Sager, our non-mentor mentor, and also Andrea Tamingas, our longtime web designer and sleuth from depragade.com. You can watch the podcast on YouTube and watch the podcast.