Joseph Smith Introduces the Second Anointing - John Turner Pt. 37 | Ep. 2135

Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Justice Smith podcast and or the Mormon stories podcast I am your host John DeLynn. It's March 27th, 2026 We're here with Dr. John Turner of George Mason University. Hey John Turner. How you doing? Great John DeLynn. How are you? We're in the throes of the NCAA tournament Half of the sweet 16 players have finished their games half are yet to go Neither Utah State University nor BYU nor George Mason are still postseason contenders Did George Mason lose in the NIT? We ignominiously lost And at home first-round NIT game, but we'll be back stronger next year. Do you attend the game? I did not I was I Did go to I went to more of our games last year I would have loved to have gone to the NIT One this year, but I had something else going on. No worries. Well, we're always proud of our Cougars our Aggies and our and the Irish and our Patriots, right? This is a Cougar Aggie Patriot Irish affirming podcast. Is that fair to say? You know, that is definitely fair to say and hey the Aggies won won a game in the tournament They were competitive against a really good team in the second round. So they will will AJ Devansa Stay with the Cougars or declare for the draft Do you have a revelation on that? I don't I don't know I don't know and I know my youth fans and my Weber State Wildcat fans and others even my Utah Valley, I Don't think Utah Valley made the postseason this year Which is unfortunate anyway, I'm not basketball Thanks for joining us today on the Joe Smith podcast last episode Episode 36 of this series. We talked about Emma Smith's War with with her husband Joseph Smith Over polygamy. She didn't like it. She found out about it through Hiram And the revelation she had the revelation burned She did her best to undo the six or so marriages the 20% of the marriages That the Joseph Smith marriages they act that she actually knew about we left last episode as a cliffhanger on You know what was gonna happen after Joseph Smith had to use as you put it and as I think William Clayton put it harsh measures Against Emma because she was wreaking havoc with with the with at least Four of the of the plural wives that she knew about she was undoing every Joseph Smith plural marriage that she could But that was the cliffhanger with the harsh measures We left us Kind of with the question of how's Joseph gonna get out of this pickle and or are we we had a teaser about? You know how and why and under what circumstances Does Joseph introduce this mysterious secret ordinance that Bruce Armacon key and Joseph building Smith and others Have hinted about or talked about the second anointing or having your calling an election made sure so that's gonna be What today's episode about and it's the it's the main title for this chapter Again the the latter half of chapter 28 in your amazing book Joseph Smith the rise and fall of an American prophet is called anointed 1843 so anything you want to say by way of introduction before we dive in to Joseph Smith's introduction of the second anointing No, it's good framing because the last four months of Joseph's life have just been intense You know finally talking to Emma and Hiram about polygamy There's a lot of actually we've we've saved it for the future, but there's a lot of political and legal Jeopardy as well There's an election and Joseph usually has a finger in that and but yeah, just a lot of Weeks of intense conflict with Emma there's been arguments. There's been Deeds of land. There's been talk of or at least whispers of divorce. There's been fighting in a carriage smashed watches arranged share marriages like And so these two these two formidable Individuals who are not used to backing down You know, they don't back down with each other they've been at odds and Emma you could say has been prevailing on some points and It reminds me of Joseph's quote to Hiram when Hiram says we should introduce this revelation to Emma. What is what is Joseph? You don't know Emma as well as I do And so yeah, they've they've really been at loggerheads and in a way I think Joseph realizes this This isn't sustainable and I I think he also wants to salvage two things at once he wants to salvage his marriage with Emma and He wants to salvage plural marriage and his movement and it's yeah and And so We'll see how much you can pull off All right, well, should we dive into the introduction of the second anointing? Absolutely so on September 18th of 1843 According to I think this is in the journal that Joseph's scribe kept Joseph and Emma were anointed and ordained to the highest and holiest order of the priesthood this is a ritual that Wilford Woodruff and others later termed the second anointing and I Realized this this is a huge subject in and of itself What Joseph had been teaching for at least a few months is that in order for a man to obtain the fullness of the priesthood he had to be anointed a king and a priest and And So Joseph had been talking about this for some time and then he Be you know, he introduced this this new ritual this new right with himself and Emma as the first recipients and In addition to the Significance of the second anointing in all sorts of other ways as it pertains to the relationship between Joseph and Emma it's a bit of a turning point and This is how I explain it for years And certainly in Navu Emma had been sidelined from what mattered most to Joseph and In addition to the betrayal of polygamy, I think simply being at the margins of his activity was hurtful to her and Now She is brought closer to the center of something of sacred significance and something of obvious importance to her husband and Joseph shortly after this he tells William Clayton that Emma had become quite friendly and kind She had been anointed and he had also been anointed king and to connect it this to what we were talking about in terms of Joseph's plural marriages Emma Doesn't continue to press Joseph After this point as far as I can tell she doesn't press him to send Sarah and Maria Lawrence out of the household which would have been trickier With Joseph being their legal guardian, but I'm sure one could have found an arrangement Also of note Joseph is sealed a couple of days after the second anointing He is sealed to a woman named Melissa lot who's the 19 year old daughter of Cornelius lot who was managing One of Joseph's properties on the outskirts of Navu a farm and And she then Lives in the Navu mansion and cared for Joseph and Emma's children We don't know whether or not Emma knew about the ceiling now in my mind If you're Emma, do you really want any other? 19 year old women moving into the household to help care for the children. I would say no So we you know, we don't really know all of the internal dynamics, but we do know that Emma was pleased To participate in this anointing alongside her husband and I speculate that This differentiated her in a way from all of these other women in her husband's life that She was a queen and priestess unto her husband and It might sound a little maybe it sounds a little crazy that that would mollify her or Put their relationship on a better footing, but that does seem to have been the case And before I Say a couple things or ask a couple things Tell us what you know about What what the what that main elements of the second anointing were in terms of the ritual itself and the promises? yeah so great question and and it's tricky because I Have you know, we have some good sources for What this ordinance was like in the years to come Including perhaps not too long After this first instance, we don't exactly know the form or structure in September of 1843 so Here, you know, let me give you an example. This is from Heber C. Kimbell's diary an entry dated February 1st 1844 he writes this Myself and wife Violet was anointed priest and priestess Unto our God under the hands of Brigham young and by the voice of the holy order the group of Men who had been and maybe men and women who had received the endowment At that ceremony Brigham young poured oil upon Kimbell's head Anointing him as a priest and king unto the most high God in and over the church and Young promised his friend long life and that he would have the power to redeem his progenitors and bring them into thy kingdom and He also anointed Violet Kimbell a queen and priestess under her husband and Pronounced blessings upon her head in common with her husband. So that is the that is sort of the first stage in the ordinance and It's modeled after the ancient Israelite practice of anointing a king with oil By pouring it over his head Again according to Heber C. Kimbell's journal two months later there was a second stage in the ordinance in which Violet Kimbell privately Symbolically prepared her husband for his eventual burial This is modeled on the woman anointing Jesus Prior to his death a story that appears in all of the New Testament Gospels So Violet Kimbell washed his feet her husband's feet then anointed with oil his feet head and stomach and The idea was that this ritual ensured That they would rise together when Christ returned presuming that they died before that transpired She wrote I think the I think she wrote something in the journal as well that She had anointed her husband so that she might have a claim upon her companion in the resurrection Man, okay, there's so much there so All right, really quickly when I was growing up And the God makers in Texas and the God makers movie came out I remember there being an allegation that Mormons would have sex in their temples and I think I think the way I heard it was that Mormon couples would be sewn up together in a sheet and have sex and that just seemed absolutely ridiculous I've heard nothing like that since But I do know that Warren Jeffs Apparently had sex with like his 12 one of his 12 year old Brides in the equivalent of his temple And that's that's that that's the audio recording comes from out that ended up I think being a part of why he was imprisoned when you start talking about a wife putting oil on her husband's head and His feet and then his stomach It I hate to say it but like all of that comes together to make me wonder Is there any reason to believe that? Sex might have been involved in this ritual for it for anyone ever or is that just Are those just unwarranted associations? well I'm not aware of I'm certainly not aware of any 19th century sources that Suggest that okay, okay All right, and I Neither am I so Okay, the second thing that comes to mind is So when Zion's camp happens and Joseph's prophecies about liberating The you know the independence the saints in Jackson County or whatever When that fails to come through remind us what Joseph Smith promised all the all the sales here and all the soldiers of the failed Zion's camp attempt Promise a promise is them a blessing and an endowment of power in the temple And this this ordinance you just described us. Is it a sometimes referred to as a second endowment? I think I've heard that phrase. Yeah, or second anointing second anointing with the you know the preparatory washing and anointing prior to the Yeah, the endowment so putting aside Joseph sincerity He does have a pattern when he when he's under trouble When things are really falling apart He seems to know that that fellow members have sincere anxieties about their status in heaven and But also maybe the status of their loved ones in heaven And he seems to know that by making promises of some special spiritual ritual that has accompanying power or significance around their eventual state in the afterlife and or the state of Their loved ones. He knows that that's a tried and true method of Maintaining loyalty and motivation of his followers, especially in the face of Possible undoing is that unfair or fair? Well, I think that's fair now you could I mean your question to some extent Put a bit of a negative spin on that one could also see this as part of Joseph's Positive talent as a religious leader that it's not good you know, I would say if you're if you're in charge of a church or a movement and it's starting to fall apart that is a big problem and Joseph did have the ability to Bring his people together through the introduction of ritual and You mentioned one instance in the wake of science camp, but there there are others in the early 1830s There's another time of a lot of fracture particularly between the church in Missouri and the church in Kirtland and Joseph introduces this ritual of foot washing People have these intense spiritual experience. It's it seems to it seems to sort of solve the problem and Helps his people cohere Kirtland There are all sorts of in it beyond science camp. There are all sorts of calm There's all sorts of conflict in the second half of 1835 just as having a fist fight with his brother William he's Having conflict with the 12 with Emma with I think Sidney Rigdon and the All of the rituals that lead up to the Kirtland temple They put that conflict aside. I Think what's really surprising in this story is in this particular instance is that the introduction of the second anointing Manages to Put to rest this conflict between Joseph and Emma like it this this works even on a personal familial basis which is which is so surprising Yeah, okay So now that we've kind of established that groundwork and of course there's also the possibility that and Maybe a real possibility that Joseph believed that he needed to be anointed a king And then believed that he that God wanted him to anoint Other people's kings and queens like it's all Again very possible and I would say likely probable that Joseph Believed he was doing God's will in all the second anointing business So I will state that If you oppressed me I'd probably I'd probably say he believed a lot of this if not all of it um But let me now let me now give a little bit of history Because I think it's it's really important for what I think my biggest takeaway about the second anointing was from your book so um Obviously bruce r. McConkey. We've mentioned this previously bruce r. McConkey Wrote I believe in mormon doctrine about having your call in an election made sure and or about the second anointing and growing up as a as a Mormon kid you would and young adult you would hear about rumors of The the second anointing ordinance being alive and well And and still being performed And in your mind as a as a young mormon person growing up You would aspire probably to eventually Have that a reality and of course we've already talked about dember snuffer And how just 10 15 years ago he was leading a movement to encourage mormons to have a second witness from jesus which which um would be Like a second witness But not necessarily a second anointing but it could mean having your calling an election made sure and how that's You know that's been an offshoot of this doctrine, but Let's just say five or ten years ago Definitely at least ten years ago. I learned about a man named tom phillips Who had been a stake president twice? Either both in the uk and I believe in either australia or new zealand And then he becomes like a secretary to the area presidency in europe becomes friends with elder holland And then he receives his second anointing um, I believe from elder ballard um in the uk along with his wife and kids and then loses his faith and then Comes on mormon stories and tells the whole story about receiving the second anointing and we should mention that he adds that you're promised that uh Nothing could keep you from becoming a god once you've had the second anointing Save the shedding of innocent blood. So literally you could in theory molester child After you've had your second anointing And as long as you don't kill shed innocent blood you could murder a guilty person But if you murdered an innocent person Then that would be the only thing that could keep you from becoming a god. Anyway, he tells that full story um, but also talks about losing his faith and then talks about his entire family Deserting him And now his son is an area authority for the mormon church by the way or general authority for the mormon church So his family remained active and he was left alone man um And uh, so that that's an episode. I recommend everybody listen to it's absolutely a classic top five if not top One or two mormon stories episode Please Another morning another reminder there's a gap to be careful of but maybe it's time to bridge the one between your nine to five And your dream of living life on your own terms At hsbc, we know ambition looks different to everyone whether it's retiring early or leaving more for your family We can help because when it comes to unlocking your money's potential, we know wealth search hsbc wealth today hsbc uk opening up a world of opportunity hsbc uk current account holders only the The reason why I'm bringing that up is because After I released that episode I had a friend named christian come to me and say john you don't fully understand the second anointing I'm like great tell me more and he said one of the things that's one of the things that's promised because One of the biggest criticisms today of the second anointing ordinance is how elite it is Because it's perceived that you know, it's super secret The the general membership don't know about it still the church Doesn't really allow anyone talking about it for good reason But for those who know about recipients of it It tends to be super wealthy super connected You know close family members who are related to general authorities Um, you know who are kind of in the elite Mormon inner Mormon circles who tend to get it And so it's viewed as this super secret elite ordinance for wealthy and or connected Mormons um And they see that as being elite, you know a lot a lot of critics see that the ordinance as being elitist and discriminatory against common everyday Mormons and it seems to be that it's only children of general authorities or you know general authorities and their wives or or mission presidents or temple presidents people that Have only you know Reach that obtained that level of status with the Mormonism Who get it and so that's that's one of the big modern critiques of it but the but the but the the mind-blowing uh Additional information that my friend christian shared with me because I believe he Had like a grandfather who received it I believe He learned that when uh a Mormon couple Receives the second anointing They are promised That their posterity until the fourth generation Will be ultimately saved and exalted Um as part and parcel To they're receiving the second anointing and what i'm thinking is That's a real tangible You know you think about these couples that are wealthy that have been serving the church for a long time But maybe they don't become general authorities And you know, I would imagine the church would want to keep them around keep them motivated keep them connected and What like with Emma like unto Emma in this story Like unto the Zion's camp soldiers with the failed prophecies What an amazing gift it would be To wealth the powerful Mormons of interconnected status To be promised not only that you know the husband and wife will become god someday But that any fear or anxiety they might have of their kids or grandkids or great grandkids Going astray or falling away Thus unraveling the promise of Mormon eternal families This idea of empty chairs sad Mormon heaven Where yeah great you're there, but your kids or grandkids aren't What an amazing way to seal the holes And the the the cracks In the doctrine of eternal Mormon families Then to promise these wealthy high status Mormon couples who are in their 60s or 50s or 70s. Don't worry about your kids and grandkids The the plan of salvation does not unravel by by anointing you today as kings and queens and gods Not only will you rule forever as a god But all your children and grandchildren great-grandchildren unto the fourth generation Will also automatically be sealed to you and be with you in happy celestial kingdom heaven if you remain faithful because of your A second anointing today. That's what my friend christian told me was part of the second anointing promises In modern times and I thought oh, that's a little That's a little too much christian But now that I see that the second anointing was literally away for joseph at least minimum To get emma back in line when she was threatening divorce And seeing that it worked and it worked to the point where emma was willing to to possibly complicit In letting joseph add melissa lot and potentially fanny young And to keep the partridge sisters It suggests that that well it taints The second anointing ordinance for me even further because it shows the kind of dangling carrot uh scandal coping device of promising celestial Additional celestial gloria promises It taints the ordinance As being at its core Sort of a manipulative one to make future celestial promises to engender loyalty today now I had to that that's no that what do you am I taking it too far? Well Resonated I don't know that much about how the ordinance has developed in you know beyond the 19th century and I think i'll say i'll say one other thing about uh joseph's Theology and leadership that relates to what you said And I think some of this This some of this Is particular to joseph and some of it is a more general maybe problem for um Christian churches So in the early 1830s The idea one one idea of ordaining men to the high priesthood was that they could seal up Men and women to eternal life now when your eternal life is sealed up it should be totally assured right? like your your set Then you know in the late 1830s, you know joseph is talking about um the ability for men to make their calling an election sure by receiving by being righteous enough to receive a personal uh visitation from jesus christ We know in the spring of 1843 uh joseph is talking to people like the johnson's and william clayton Maybe do his own wife emma about the ability for individuals to make their calling an election sure by being sealed in marriage and so Then the fall of 1843 or summer and fall of 1843 he's talking about um the ability for men Um to have their calling an election made sure by being anointed a king and priest unto god and being prepared to rule a kingdom So to some extent you see the gold posts moving here and I think that's partly because Human beings how can we really be sure of our salvation right? We maybe we need more assurance um And it's you know regardless. It's almost always conditional right upon ongoing good behavior So I think you see some moving of the gold posts. I think also for joseph There's always another degree There's always more fullness of the priesthood. You never really quite have it all um And I think that's his the way joseph's mind worked And I think you know, that's there's also maybe a bit of a masonic inflection there there's always another degree you could pursue and achieve and so You know, we think of we're or sometimes I hear people refer to the second anointing as joseph's sort of crowning Ordinance in in the sense of people are being crowded kings and queens But also this is the last one that he introduces. Well Had joseph lived another Five years right that I'm sure there would have been a third anointing and I'm not god's god becoming a god god, right? a god over gods I'm not saying that to be glib and disrespectful. I I just think that's the way joseph's Theological and ritual mind worked. There was always more um now To quote spinal tap joseph always took it to 11 Exactly, um, and there would be 12 around the corner, right? So But in in the sense of manipulation Yes, I think that's that's true um And I also think at the same time Joseph had the ability to introduce usually biblically grounded rituals in really original ways that were deeply meaningful to um his people Amid what were often difficult circumstances. So there are some there are some 19th century second anointing accounts that that kind of blow my mind for instance if you remember if people are familiar with The new testament stories of the woman anointing jesus with oil she um Bates jesus's feet with her tears Drives them with her hair Kisses them and then rubs them with oil. We have accounts of um Mormon women in the 19th century doing precisely that um We have women Anointing their husband's feet and then wiping them with with their hair and then kissing them after the pattern as written in the testament of jesus christ and So there is a certain In addition to what we have discussed This could this is an intensely like biblical and tender moment Uh for couples that also this is a bit of a tangent. It also Um relates to the Mormon idea of a married jesus There's a lot going on here absolutely which again my my roomated b.y.u was Asked on a on a exam at b.y.u by margaret pope bruce amiconke's sister true or false jesus married several women The correct answer was true. Yes, and and jesus smith was a descendant of jesus By blood to you know true or false true that kind of thing Okay Okay, uh and really quickly because you mentioned that I always assumed that the apostle Would anoint the heads of the husband and the wife and I think I may have even Stated that in a previous episode with you But all the evidence i'm collecting today Suggest that the apostle Only anoints the husband with oil And pronounce him a king and a priest Does the wife not get anointed with oil and be pronounced a queen and a priestess? So again, I don't know what Um, I don't know how this later developed but In the heber c kimble account that I quoted from Um a little while ago bergham young does seem to have anointed uh both Husband and wife Okay So maybe in the modern iteration of this the wife does get anointed And then and then according to tom phillips and haunz mattson by the way is another person Former area authority from sweden who we've interviewed on Mormon stories Who admits having received haunz and bergita mattson? They also have been interviewed and admit to receiving the second anointing After leaving before leaving the church, but uh after the apostle anoints The husband and or the husband and wife with oil pronouncing them kings and or kings and queens they're asked to go off to a separate room Where the wife washes the feet of the husband? and then the wife re anoints Uh put laser hands on the husband's head and pronounces blessings upon him All right, and in 19th century there was often some space Like some time between those two stages. It wasn't one after the other. Yeah Okay, and and the and the final thing that I kind of listed here I asked the question of whether this is whether the word indulgence Has any relevance here and or Is it you know, especially in the modern The modern instantiations of the second anointing Does this amount to an indulgence and or the selling of salvation? Because just to kind of put a fine point on it It the you you have stated in past episodes that a Protestant Christian in 2026 Just thinks they're going to be in heaven with their family Like it's just do not pass go do not collect 100 200 dollars When you're in heaven you're with your family. That's just the assumption of a Protestant Christian But in Mormonism Joseph manufactures the scarcity of you only get to be in heaven with your family if you're all You know doing all the Mormon things including tithing and temple stuff and lifelong commitment so in that sense is it but and so Great if a couple is able to live till they die and stay faithful But it's almost inevitable that some children and some grandchildren Are aren't going to make it and that's where the whole Mormon dream just becomes a nightmare Because it's all about eternal families and inevitably you've got kids and grandkids that aren't going to make it which Torpedoes the whole thing So this is the great whole plugger the crack sealer of the the the Mormon eternal families doctrine this eternal this this uh The second anointing thing because I could see it taking out a wealthy 60-something couple Especially in 2026 when they see so many of their kids and grandkids falling away They're like, why did I give my whole life to this? gosh forsaken church Serving multiple missions. What's the point if my kids and grandkids aren't even going to be in heaven with me? well, this Is the great promise that that assuages those concerns and fears And binds them to the church and their money and their devotion to the church and to the very end This promise so does the word indulgence And or to the word selling salvation Fit here possibly in a functional sense Even if it's Even if we can't know about intention past or present I'm trying to think of um A nice rhyme to replace when the coin in the coffer clings the soul from purgatory springs But I wasn't quick enough on my feet to come up with something that was that reference so that's uh, that's back to the era of marten luther when the catholic church was selling indulgences that would reduce the amount of time that individuals would spend in purgatory and there's a lot of corruption involved because usually they were for you know, they were for sort of church building projects, but Uh, perhaps the person selling them could you know, skim a little off the donations. Anyway, that's a that's a digression That's a good question. John Um, I haven't really I haven't really thought about it You're definitely right to put your finger on the theological anxiety of what happens to one's loved ones because uh, that is central to this whole theological system That's how it begins for joseph. What happens to alvin, right? Right and you know the specific language that I quoted from the heeversy kimball second Anointing was that he would have the power to redeem his progenitors So his ancestors and bring them into his kingdom But of course there's also the promise um that you see in doctrine and covenant section 132 about the continuation of the seeds And of course if you're going to be a king you want to have you want to have you don't want to have an empty kingdom Uh, you want you want everyone? uh stretching back uh stretching forward and And that's the appeal and the reality is you can't be sure Right, you can't be sure what's going to happen with your uh descendants and many um And not only letter day saints, but certainly mormon mormon families are living out the reality of that fracture in ways that are often You know, they're that that's that can be something that's just full of anguish and conflict and alienation and Without the rituals and with slightly different expectations. I think you see that in a lot of religious households Christian muslim jewish um and so that's this it's this huge practical issue and You know one thing that I would say is You know as as I said you see joseph again and again introducing something new resolve that anxiety you could say perhaps even to Um take advantage of that anxiety if you will um And I think the reality is you can't really get rid of that anxiety. I mean none of us None of us. I think really have 100 percent community and confidence in What's going to happen after we die after our loved ones die we have hope um, you know, I think you know Christianity is certainly about hope in uh the resurrection and um but The reality is is humans just can't achieve full confidence. Uh, I think no matter what and so I think you see joseph and his followers grasping for what ultimately is impossible to achieve Unless you're really good at compartmentalizing because I I do think I do think this ordinance probably persists into 2026 Because on some level the brethren felt it was useful You know sure and you know in a in a you know in I would also say when I look at the 19th century sources whether it's the kimball. So it's another couple, you know that that I mentioned Or even joseph and emma I you know, I do I do also see this as something sacred and tender that couples for obvious reasons uh treasured And I happen to really love the story of the woman anointing jesus um, if you're ever in salt lake city and you haven't been in the I think it's called the cathedral of the madeline. There's a beautiful mosaic of the woman anointing jesus in it and one of joseph's I would just say unusual talents was snatching these stories out of the bible and Bringing them to life through ritual and yes, you know, I tend to I I like studying religion so I tend to get excited about this this sort of thing But you could you can see like there's a lot of there's a lot of creativity But then there's this biblical firmament that his followers really connect with And I really appreciate you uh including that in this coverage of the topic of the second anointing because Aside from like the power or the reassurances of insecurities or whatever I'm sure emma experienced this as a beautiful sacred moment with the husband that she loved and wanted to be with forever And I'm sure a lot of Mormon couples who have received this ordinance consider it the most beautiful sacred special holy tender experience of their lives. I mean imagine literally imagine Your grandma or your mom or you if you're a woman washing the feet of your husband in a temple room and then laying your hands on his head and Announcing special blessings or having one of the 12 apostles of the Mormon church Literally washing your feet Or or anointing you with oil on your head either one or both just unbelievable like it's got to be An S tier as they say at modern times spiritual emotional experience Um, that's deeply meaningful and by the way It's hard to make people feel Those levels of elevated emotion You try it you try and create something that generates that level of happiness and comfort and security It's it was enough to make emma go from being furious about polygamy and wanting to divorce Joseph To possibly letting him take an extra wife or two That's how powerful the second anointing can be so it must have been a very beautiful sacred Keep going. You're doing it That's the sound of sam learning to swim in a hilton resort pool Oh, that's delicious. Mmm. And that's the sound of sam and his family enjoying dinner in the hotel restaurant Good evening. Welcome back with stays in your favorite destinations and everything taken care of you can savor What's important when you want your holiday to feel like a holiday? It matters where you stay book now at hilton.com Hilton for the stay There's no one like you and there never will be From the producer bohemian rhapsody And the director of training day Will you let your life shine this april with a greatest of all time there are many legends I've been a king But there was only one Michael in iamax and cinemas wednesday april 22 special thing And just to maybe circle back to emma and joseph I I don't I i'm not in i'm not in a position to tell anybody how they should feel about any of these things Um, you know the whole the whole story of their relationship in the context of polygamy. It's just it's just crazy They do You know after After this moment they do have I would say better It puts their relationship on a better footing for the remainder of joseph's life Um, I think he doesn't have very much to do um with his Plural wives over the last six months of his life in particular emma still has Despite everything and this is a true miracle. She does have a lot of affection for joseph They have familial and uh friendly stretches of time And I don't know how to balance. I I don't really know how to think about that Alongside the fact that on on some level, maybe joseph is continuing to deceive her um But you know the two the two of them um You know this it does seem to get their relationship back on a better footing somehow And emma stays stays with them to the very end, right? She does and never really Never really Betrays him, you know later in life Never throws them under the bus later in life that we know of no and um that fierce nobody can live for Ever, you know, nobody can live for very long in a fierce state of conflict. I think Or maybe some people can but for emma and joseph they had You know four or five months of just fierce conflict about uh polygamy and they both through pressing him to to Abandon, uh some of his wives and joseph um, perhaps Through this introduction of the sacred ritual and moving into a new house somehow. They're both able to To sort of fight to a draw um and to stick stick with each other. I do think one of the things about emma, um is you know, she She is one of the few people who can just contend against joseph and uh, at least fight him to a draw She's formidable. She's a formidable woman. Yeah, she's formidable um Just just for the sake of uh thoroughness. I'm going to read a quote that I called in my studies while reading your book Because john turner. I'm trying to be a good student, you know, um I found a quote Recorded by will wilford woodruff and maybe you've already read this It's a discourse recorded by wilford woodruff. I believe it's attributed to joseph smith in august 13th 1843 The sources I believe the words of joseph smith edited by andrew e hat and linden cook page 241 and the quote is quote When a seal is put upon the father and mother It secures their posterity and if they go to hell They will have to come up again Close quote. Does that sound right? Is that a quote you you heard of? Um, well, it's It sounds right enough. Um, I'd have to I'd have to take a look Oh, that so that's homework for those of you who want to check out Those extra elements to the second anointing about promises regarding Posterity to the third or fourth generation That's an opening for you to go do your own study to see if if that makes sense for you Um, all right john turner. Well, I think You know, there's a little bit about uh political intrigue Missouri stuff joseph fleeing from the law that we didn't cover in um Uh chapter 28 But we're gonna just maybe start with that next time As we begin chapter 29. Is there anything else about chapter 28 you want to share? Before we sign off today Well chapter 29 is one of my shorter chapters. So I think we can we can bring some of that political And legal trouble into it Just for a preview of coming attractions. We also do get joseph beating up a local tax collector So and enjoying it He wasn't beyond physical violence you're saying so no and he came out on top this time So we can look forward to that Okay, yeah in the chapter is called cool as a cucumber. I'm dying to know what that's a reference to so we'll have that be a a cliffhanger All right, thanks john. All right. Well, thanks to everyone for joining us today on the joseph smith podcast and or more mysteries podcast again Uh this series exists Thanks to the generosity of our donors. So if you've donated to this series order more of stories. Thank you. We couldn't do without you John turner has teased us with the possibility of 10 brigham young episodes in addition to Completing this book joseph smith the rise and fall of the american prophet um as a podcast series if Uh people are willing to support it. So we've had some people Step up and offer some matching funds If uh enough people will donate so if you want to support This series all the way through to 50 plus episodes If that's if 40 isn't enough or 43 isn't enough Uh, just go to donorbox.org slash joseph smith and become a one time or a monthly donor to the series until we complete it Uh other ways you can help us is by liking and subscribing commenting sharing On all the platforms that also is super great. We love your emails at mormonstories at gmail.com We love your comments on the episode on youtube or spotify. We love your feedback We love your criticisms. We love your push backs. We've gotten some good push backs, right right john turner We we get all sorts of of of comments, which I I love I've been trying to do I've been trying to diligently respond to more of them on on youtube. I think that's where most of them are and yeah, I I appreciate people who care enough to comment whether those comments are positive whether they're critiques that's all All the all of this is controversial stuff So I totally get that I appreciate people listening commenting Um, you know, it's gratifying to me that that people care Amen, uh Yeah, so we'll see all online and uh Thanks so much again. Remember that this this series also is released as its own series So if you don't want to have to consume this series You know with the mormon stories feed or if you can't find the the jill smith podcast playlist on youtube You could always just go to the jill smith podcast on spotify Or on apple podcast or wherever you consume your podcasts and it should be there as its own Series and again this series is best consumed in sequence Huge thanks to julia. She makes all this possible. She does great work behind the scenes. Thanks to brooklyn as well Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of the jill smith podcast And of a mormon stories podcast Please buy this book For yourself for friends and family joseph smith uh the rise and fall of the american prophet take care everybody. See you soon