Corbyn Besson

And he was like, what if I could get Chewy from twice? And I was like, please reach out, see if she'd be down. I would love that. I think she'd be great. He's been friends with her A&R for some time, or for the group's A&R. And he reached out. Her A&R came back, was like, not sure if they're doing solo records right now, but like, send me the song and I'll play it for her and see if she likes it. Don't get your hopes up. And he was like, all right, sent her the song and like, two days later, she came back and she was like, hey, she absolutely loved the song and she absolutely wants to do it. And I heard the trumpets playing in my bedroom when I got that text. Yeah, that's good. That's good news. New Orleans Saints fan born and raised. Are you from New Orleans? No, but my my dad is. OK, I was born into it. It's in my blood. Right. That's how I am with the commanders. Yeah, OK, I'm from D.C. So I yeah, yeah, yeah, like Northern Virginia. Yeah, like Fairfax. Yeah. Oh, you know where I'm from? No, are you from? Waldorf, Maryland. Oh, OK, nice. Yeah, you know where that is. I've heard of it. I don't know where it is on the map, but right across the bridge. If you were to go over the Woodrow Wilson. OK, yeah. You just go down to Maryland. It's the D.C. side of Maryland. It's southern Maryland, but it's right down 301 from D.C. You hit Charles County. OK, yeah. And it's so what separates Virginia and Maryland, where I'm from and where you're from is the river. So on the other side of the Potomac is Maryland. And that's where we sit on the other side is southern Maryland. So yeah, sweet. My grandma used to live in she passed away, but as grandmothers do, she had a very long life. How long she lived? She was well in her well into her 90s. Wow. She was in the late 90s. So she lived in Manassas. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I used to always play Pokemon Go in Manassas. Yeah. Yeah. They had like Snorlax's over there. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So we're in Centerville. Centerville is the actual town. It's kind of like country there. Yeah. It's like I lived kind of in the more suburban area. So like a lot of townhouses and but like there's like Clifton, which was like right next to Centerville and Manassas area, which is like all woods and back roads. Yeah. So she was actually in I want to get this right because she was outside up. So she lived in like a more rural country area, but it was like closest to Manassas. Yeah. Yeah. But it was like, I don't know if it was Woodbridge or if it was. Yeah. It was out there. Did you ever visit? Of course. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. Me and my friends call Manassas Manassas. Manassas. Yeah. I don't really know where it came from, but I actually lived when I was probably your age, like 19. I know you're not 19, but you live at your 19. I get that all the time. I'll take it. I lived in Fairfax in Alexandria. Yeah. I actually bought my first condo there. Crazy. Yeah. I've met it's so crazy. I've met so many people like in the last six months that either know about Fairfax specifically or like have people that or have friends or family that live there. Yeah. And it's so strange. The most recent one was I was at a Jeremiah's house. I have a song with Jeremiah called Summer and I was recording his final vocals for the pre-chorus there. And he had some people over. There were maybe like 10 people over, some writers. I think Trey Songz and Mario ended up coming over later. I had left before they. I wish I stayed, but we're in there and a couple of dudes walk in, start introducing myself, saying, what's up? He had like this crazy studio in his house where there's like paint splattered all over everything. And it was like dark and there was neon lights, wild, wild room. And two guys walk in and say, what's up to the first guy? Second guy say, what's up? And you know, we're just the classic stuff you say when you're meeting somebody like, what's your name? Where are you from? Whatever. And he said, Northern Virginia. And I was like, what you know about Northern Virginia? And he was like, I grew up there and I was like, what part? And he was like, like Fairfax County. And I was like, what? That's where I'm from. He's like, what high school did you go to? And I was like, Centerville High School asked him the same question. He said Westfield High School, which was our rival high school. Right. Down the street. Yeah. And I was just like, the universe works in such weird ways. Like, what am I doing at Jeremiah's house right now? And there's 10 people here and a guy walks in and we probably were at the same high school football game across the country five years ago. Yeah, I've had that experience. It's weird. It's kind of weird, but it's also kind of like, and I mean this in like a, when I say the bigger you get, I mean this in the sense of like, not just like you have a hit song, but like the bigger you get, like you don't just grow in age. Yeah. You grow in experience. You grow in the knowledge you grow in understanding. You grow in presence. You grow in, if we looked at it from a business perspective, you grow in market position. Yeah. So your your position in the market you're in gets stronger every year. If you're working, right, if you're not working, it gets weaker, right? So if you look at it that way, the bigger you get, the smaller the world gets. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then the world feels small because you're meeting some guy from, but you met him because you were at that guy's house doing what you do, which is work. Right. Right. And if we, I think if we take the magic out of it, which is sometimes it's good to have a little bit of magic in things, but then sometimes it's good to stop and go, and no, what's the science? Right? Right. The science is, is that I know more people than I ever have. Right. Therefore, I'm going to meet more people than I ever have. Yeah. And someone's bound to be from the place you're from. There's only so many places. Also, LA is one of those hot spots where everybody here, I feel like the majority of people here now are, and it could be wrong. Don't quote me on this, but are from somewhere else. Yeah. Of course. And so it's this is one of the places that people come to. And there's only a few of those places, you know, in the country. Yeah, it's a transplant centric place. It's very transplant friendly. Yeah. So like you can come from another place here and easily set up a life. Yeah, for sure. It's conducive to that. It's a part of the business model of the city is actually that. And then the arts, obviously, is is LA tends to, I think, be more artist friendly in the sense of like you people mix it up here. Yeah. So you find yourself in some room with some guy, you end up working on something, whether it becomes something or not. It's a lot of that. Yeah, for sure. There's a so there's a it's a welcoming environment for artists and creators and stuff. And it's a really easy place to live. Yeah, whether or in the. Oh, yeah, dude, we're spoiled here. We get things the way we want. Um, you know, it's funny. It's the LA thing, right? You go to a restaurant and you go, I want that. But take that off. Of course, dude. Of course. Only in LA. Yeah. You go to other places and they're like, what? It's on the menu. Yeah. Or you just go, OK, I'm going to bring you what was on the menu. Yeah, we're so spoiled here. We we get what we pay for, you know, it's yeah, I love this city. It is great. How long you been here? I moved here, like officially in 2016. OK. So just about 10 years. That's good. Yeah. I was 17 when I moved here. Oh, wow. So I've yeah, seen a lot of this city. What's your take? I feel like. Oh, OK, let me let me frame this different. Not just of LA. Yeah. I would imagine at 17, you're just coming into what I would say is like adult awareness of like what you want to do, where you want to go, how you want to do it. You're coming into the it's the beginning of the next chapter of like manhood or adulthood or however you want to put it. So now you're 10 years in that 10 years, not just because of the city, but because of what you chose to do with your life. You're getting kind of probably like 20 years of experience. Oh, yeah, man. There's so much packed into this city. And also I think this job field is in this industry. Yeah, is what's your take? Yeah, my take is I miss the magic that LA once had that I feel like everybody experiences when they move here. You know, I think being 17, like used to be skateboarding around like Culver City, like all the way down to Inglewood, just like riding around 17 years old, nothing else to care about, except I'm joining a band and I'm making music. And wow, I'm in the city of dreams and yeah, innocent, super innocent. And also just like the world feels so big at that point because you're like, wow, I've never experienced something like this and why this place is real. But I think LA is one of those cities that like it is what you make it, you know, for the first like three or four years, I was touring a lot. So I wasn't here a bunch, but this was like home base. So I started calling LA home and I think being young here and being in a creative industry was something that I'll never take for granted because it was like just constant like, who gets to do this? Like this is so cool. Since the pandemic, I've settled down a lot. I've lived at the house that I live at for like, we're going on seven years now. Well, that's good. And I live with some of my closest friends. OK. It's really tight. But like I said, I think LA is it is what you make it. And so it's I think you could say the same about really any city. Like you find your people and I think. If you're a good person and you treat people well and, you know, you're a little bit selfless, I think you can get so much out of this city and you can meet so many amazing people. There's there's the full spectrum of types of people here. And I think it's all about like where you choose to settle in. And my 10 years here have been almost 10 years have been amazing. I feel like I've almost done my time here. Where else would you go? I feel like I would want to go to New York City, man. And New York's great. You ever lived up there? I have. I lived in New York for a year. OK. When I was 21. Oh, nice. It was insane. It was really it's in New York is its own place. Yeah. And I go there all the time. I go obviously for work and stuff. And my twin brother, who's my best friend and my partner across everything from when we had our band to all the things we do, he is by Coastal Truly, so he's there a good half or fourth of the year. OK. So so I go there when he's there to see him, because we we don't do well when we're apart for too long. Yeah. I don't know if you ever had a relationship like that, but like we are just like through partners, man. Like we don't see each other. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So New York is incredible. I love New York. I was just there for a week recently. And we were staying on the lower east side. Yeah. And it was the first time I'd been in a few years. And it was actually the longest amount of time that I had spent there. Pretty great. The last thing, bro, I fell in love with it. Yeah. Just like going to jazz bars at night and, you know, having a couple beers and just like walking around the city. Pick up a slice of pizza. I mean, I'm doing the touristy New York stuff, but I've heard I still do that. The dollar slice. I mean, it's not really a dollar slice anymore. But with pizza, I kind of just try a new place every time. Yeah. I want to find like I'm still searching for the best pizza in New York. Yeah. But I've had great pizza. I love New York pizza. I love the culture and the pace. It's great. I feel like in LA the last and maybe it's like since the pandemic or whatever. But it's gotten a little too laxed for me. Yeah. I feel like I need to move a little bit quicker. And those are just the people there. And it's a different kind of energy socially there too than it is here. It's good to switch it up too. Yeah. Because then you come back to LA and you really appreciate it. Yeah. I feel like I've lost a little bit of that. Like I love the city and I'm very grateful for the city, but it's not as exciting anymore. You know, like I'm planted here. So like it is what it is. And I think some of that actually comes with age. Yeah. I think the novelty of it when you're young and you have all your dreams in front of you. Right. And it feels like this place is supplying that to you. Yeah. Is exciting. Mm hmm. But then I asked the question like, OK, if I took you out of LA and puts you in Chicago or Tokyo or New York and you had the same dream, would you not have accomplished it? I think you would have. Yeah. Because you have the drive. Right. And so when the city is wrapped up in an emotional magical feeling, it represents a different thing to you. But I believe that people like you would be driven to accomplish whatever they put their mind to and that it wasn't luck. Right. And that it was you met the people that you met. And if you were in Chicago or New York, you would have met a different group of people and had a different version of the same outcome. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. So I think that like when we get the special part of an emotional attachment is that it feels great. Yeah. But it can also feel bad, too. Yeah. And when we don't, I feel like when I don't step back and analyze something and go like, yeah, but I probably feel that way about New York. I mean, I don't know if I'd been there for 20 years. I've been in LA for 20 years and I know exactly. Oh, yeah. Wow. And we could say the city has changed. It has a little bit, but all cities do. Yeah. I think it's more my emotional experience. For sure. For sure. It's like a marriage, right? You got to keep the you got to keep that. You got to keep the flame. Keep the flame. You know? So like, you know what? A little trip away isn't bad because I come back excited. And then I also had to like make myself understand that I'm not stuck in LA. Yeah. I can go to New York for eight. Well, I have kids, so it's different. But now there are teenagers and they're on their way to their own adventures. So then now I'm like, well, do I have to stay in LA? Probably not. I could go. Will I stay in LA? Well, I'll always have a house here. But maybe we want to go to Paris for six months and see what that's like. Yeah. You know what I mean? So you know, I think like when we when we give anything too much credit or power, yeah, we are too emotional about it. Right. And there's a balance because I want to love places. I love LA. I have so much respect and love for what I've done here. But I also believe I would have done that if I was in freaking London. Yeah. Or Chicago or Dallas or you know what I mean? I feel like I'm craving the experience of like falling in love with a place. Yeah. Yeah. And like I heard someone said something to me recently about being 27. I just turned 27. Great. And someone said something about 27 in most people's lives is like this turning point where you want a big change or you want multiple big changes in your life. And I don't know if that's necessarily true or not, but I'm kind of feeling it. So I think there's something to it. Yeah. New York kind of felt like the the most grabbable yearn for change. It's like, OK, I could probably change a lot of things if I just picked up and and went somewhere really exciting. I don't know if I'll do it. Maybe in the next like 24 months or something. But I think you have a little more work to do here before I go. But I think you're not stuck. Yeah. You can go anywhere you want. Yeah. And I think that as long as we remember that, yeah, and we might not want to go anywhere, but as long as we know that we can make those choices, then it's actually really like if anything, it's just a relief to not feel like anything owns you. Yeah. The worst feeling in the world. Yeah. Versus committed to something that's different. Right. Different intentions. Different whole different thing. Yeah. Partnerships are sustainable agreements. Right. Yeah. There's a bunch of agreements we came to together that made this sustainable. And if there's not two people that agree. Right. And they are happy. So sometimes you have to readjust for sure. Right. So in 20 year marriage, you're like, oh, you know what? Like you have to make space for this like thing to grow. Yeah. And it's just like that in a business. And I find those similarities through that exact thing with with my boy band. Right. So. So. And that's who you were touring with. Right. Why don't we? Yeah. Yeah. OK. I want to know about that because I know you guys went through something. Yeah. But I don't know exactly what. Yeah. But it looks like it's been pretty painful. It was it was rough. Yeah. It's pretty it's on the back end now. We're like pretty much through everything. OK. So would you say you got the result you want to know? No. I mean, it was it was in court terms, you know, that we had some wins and some losses. You know, there was certain evidence that couldn't be admitted for kind of bullshit reasons. Yeah. Like legal loopholes and rules and the game is played on paper in court. Yeah. Not in like real life. So there's always going to be little. Yeah. When you're in an illegal argument and a legal battle, it can be really frustrating when the real life part in the legal papers and rules and all the things that they they use in court. That's the game they're playing. Yeah. So our lawyers are lawyers. It was so crazy to experience it. Right. I thought it was a lot more straightforward than it is. Our most compelling piece of evidence for our case. We had a lot of evidence for our case, but our most compelling piece was not allowed to be admitted. Right. And it was game changer. And we were like, we got to the day and we were like, oh, my gosh, this is this is crazy. I don't understand. After the lawyers broke it down and I was like, OK, like, I guess, doesn't really make sense to me. But I understand how it kind of applies in the court of law. But it was essentially a divorce between. Right. The production company and a band. And so we became collateral damage, had to pick a side. We picked a side and just from an outsider. So I'm going to tell you what I think from someone who just saw the top line. Yeah. And I know nothing. OK. Cool. I've never heard this perspective before. So from my perspective, I'll tell you what I saw. And I've seen this a million times. So I have my own opinion, but I'm not in the actual legal case with you. So I think it's actually probably better for me to talk about it than you. Anyways, because I'm coming from a a noninvolved person who's just giving you their perspective and opinion on it. Yeah. What I saw was pretty typical. What happens? A production company, anyone that's listening. Most people don't understand the dynamics and the nuances of the of the different models of deals artists can do with different companies. There's a lot of them. So many. Yeah, it's crazy. And the fucked up part about the music business is that anybody can print a business card and become a manager or the owner of a production company, if they have some money and they have some this, they can say they can represent themselves as anything they want. Yeah. There's no degree. There's no certificates. There's no certifications. There's no you can anyone can be a manager. Anyone can be a label. Anyone can be anything they want in the music business. There's a really great aspect of that. And there's some really tragic aspects of that as well. We've all experienced them just so you know, I'm coming from a place as an artist who's also been taking advantage of what I felt I was taking advantage of. I've never met an artist who hasn't had it at some point, which is kind of crazy, but it's, you know, I guess it's a rite of passage. Unfortunately, you said it. OK, so what I was going to say is congratulations, kid. You made it. Yeah. And you're alive. Yeah. OK. So let's start there to tell the tale at the young age of twenty seven. You have the old wisdom of someone taking advantage of you in some way, shape or form, whether it was these guys or that guy or that guy. So I'm going to be I'm going to be very ambiguous here. OK, yeah. So that so that everyone listening doesn't get all nervous. Yeah, I mean, with it. No, I wasn't your managers or your lawyers getting nervous because you're talking about something I'm just saying. This is real, though. We this is important to talk about. And I don't know if you've unpacked it with anyone, but I've like briefly unpacked and just so you know, I try to stay as unbiased as possible and kind of see bigger pictures. That's why I'm curious to hear that's how I am. Your take on it. I don't want to be a bitter person. Yeah. But you never forget. Right. When someone does you wrong. Right. And I'm not really a blame guy either. I like try to see all parts of the equation. And I feel like it's the only way to solve things is when you can see all the parts of the equation, be emotionally detached and look for a solution given all the playing cards. That's smart. You know, and that's really smart. Yeah. If I was a solo artist at the time, maybe it would have worked out for me. But, you know, you got a bunch of cooks in the kitchen. It gets a little bit more difficult. Yeah. But you're a kid. Come to LA. You want to make it join a band. The world is promised to you when someone's getting you to sign a piece of paper. They tell you how great it's going to be. They don't tell you how hard it's going to be or how what if it goes wrong here or what? So when you're a kid making a deal, you're not thinking like, OK, let's play this deal all the way through all stages of the deal. Because there's a thing called deal fatigue. There's a thing. Yeah. There's all these stages of deals we get into. You only know it until you've been in a bunch of deals and then you kind of can model. And you go, OK, if this deal goes really well, how does everyone want to participate? Right. And also, let's talk about that. That's another thing we don't do as artists when we negotiate. We don't go, OK, let's in success. What do you hope to get? Right. And where is there a cap on it? Is there a ceiling on it? Or is it just in perpetuity forever and ever? If we win on the first game or the first at bat, we hit the ball and we do that a couple times and we build something valuable. How do you want to participate? Right. And then you need them to say it. Well, I want to own you forever. Yeah. So I'd just be clear. I just want you to say it. Yeah. And then let's all talk about that. And then let's talk about that. Yeah. So why can't we have a negotiation like that? Well, we can, but it's really hard when you're like, I also don't want to lose this opportunity and for sure. You're like a kid. I mean, yeah. That's like exactly it kind of what it came down to. Yeah. And so they're going to leverage that idea of who they are, not actually who they are. And then also your parents are there maybe or this person there. No one's done this before. And they're all like, this seems so big and such a good opportunity. It's probably the only one we're going to get. That's another thing when you're inexperienced. You know, realize like, no, there'll be more. Yeah. Trust that. But this is what happens in most artists. So for anyone listening, a production company, generally a couple guys get together, they go, let's sign some artists. We'll sign into a production deal as a production deal. We're responsible and we own. I don't have a production company. I'm just saying on the way of the other side. Yeah. OK. We own their masters. We own their publishing. We own their brand. We help. We help build it. All that you could argue that we did. You could argue that we did nothing. There's a lot of ways people could look at it. Yeah. And you're a kid. You guys, you know, production company, we put together this band. We get down the road, we start working, we have success, which rarely happens to, by the way. Yeah. Not many people make it. Lightning in a bottle, man. Right. So. But what we've done is we've wrapped you up in this production deal forever and ever. And now we own X percent. Most of the time is 50 percent. Really unfair, especially if there's four or five members of a band. So that means we get to split 50 percent between five of us. That's 10 percent each. So we're going to go out for five years of our life. We're going to come back. If we've made a dollar, you get 50 and we each get 10 cents. So think about that, kids. The boy. Bancers. All right. The boy. Bancers. It's so hard. It's so. So just I'm here with you. Just stop and just hold that. Yeah. And I don't want to come across like I didn't make money because we definitely made money. Yes. But the structure of everything. The structure was when it when it comes down to having so many, especially with bands, it's the biggest struggle is the splits at the end of the day. You know, it's like it's emotional as a solo artist. You have, let's say, just to put it in numbers, you have to have 10 percent of the six amount of success to make the same amount of money. Right. If you're and if your split ends up being ten ways and let's be clear, as we talk about money, if you want to do this for a living. Yeah. But which we both do. Right. We love to make art, but we want to do it full time so that we can do it again. Right. So that the people that made us can get more. Right. Not to make money off them. It's to do it. Right. OK. The truth that I've found about most artists is they actually don't care about money. No, it's secondary. The experience and and being the person and providing, at least for me, is my main goal and focus. I know that. I can tell. It's like being an existing and providing and like just the fun of it. You know, it's like I would not rather be doing anything else with my life. And so it's such a blessing, but you also have to be able to live on it. You've got to be able to live if you want to actually be able to take it seriously and do it with your life. That's right. And I will say this as well. When I bring money up, it's the most physical thing I can explain. Yeah. To people of the the splits. It's not about money. I'm just using the money as an example of what is split up. Yes. Actually, your art is also split up. Yeah. So everything that you poured your your energy into, your effort into, your experience, everything that you went to create is now owned by this collective group of people because of that piece of paper. So the legality of that paper stands in some cases. Some cases, it doesn't actually stand. So there's there's argue. That's why you have to go to court. But what I'm saying is to the people listening so that they understand the production deal concept or any bad deal. Here's what I will say. Anyone listening that owns a production company, I will not apologize. Production deals are the worst deals you can ever do. Yeah. I would never do a production deal with an artist. Well, the truth of the matter of my company, we don't have any deals with anyone. Oh, wow. It's a handshake. Wow. And business people have left. Yeah. People we have put a lot of time into. That's OK. Yeah. I can live with that. Yeah. Not everybody can. Not everyone can because they don't have talent. Yeah. If you have talent, you always feel OK. You go, I can go forward and I can I can do it again. Yeah. And I'm also not going to live in in bed and bitter. I don't hate anyone. Yeah. If someone feels they need to go somewhere, they can go. Yeah. I'm not going to I'm not going to beg someone to love me. Yeah. That's never going to happen. Yeah. If they don't see me, they don't see me and someone will. Now, I love talking about this stuff. Yeah, because I'm very protective. Yeah. And it's not fair. Managers use those deals to scare artists. Yeah. Because artists don't know actually how much power they have, at least in California, I'll say that. So if you're going to do a management contract, do it in California. Yeah. All artists. It's game. Yeah. I will say that only because you probably feel the same way that I do. And then we'll get back to what what's really important. But I wanted to you probably feel like I wish I had met 27 year old me when I was 17. For sure. That would just tell me how it works. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Free game. Yeah. We were yeah, I was 17 when we signed and my parents don't know anything about the industry. But you said it like pretty much exactly earlier. There's an opportunity in front and parents are involved. It might be the only opportunity we get. At first, I didn't even want to be in a group. I was like potentially not going to sign this contract. OK, it was a decent. I will say it was a decent deal for a concept band. Right. And I was against why don't we at first. But now how do you feel about it? And aside from the ordeal you went through, let's put all that aside, right? It's almost impossible to do that, I know. But like how do you feel about the experience you had? Like what came out of that experience of being in the band over that time? It was the best experience of my life so far, probably besides like working on my solo stuff now. Right. Just because the intention is so different and like my soul is so much more involved. Of course. Of course. But I wouldn't trade have trade any of it for the world. I mean, it was like every day was pinch me moments like what this is really happening to me. And I get to do it with my four closest friends. So the experience itself was amazing. I mean, we got to do what millions of kids around the world dream of doing. And it's a dream. Yeah, it was the coolest thing ever. And to be like under 21, like touring the world and, you know, girls are screaming your name and the whole thing, the whole boy band experience. I mean, thank God I signed the contract because if I didn't, I would have shot myself in the foot literally and figuratively. But it was amazing, man. And I think now we're are you guys still close? Yes and no. I mean, we don't talk every day. We don't like necessarily go out of our way. Hang out. Yeah, it's we're all in our like mid to like getting into our late 20s now. So I think and like with the pandemic, we were all kind of forced into our own homes and we all had slightly different friend groups at the time. So I think there's this natural separation, you know, it's like when you go to college and like if you leave college and go get a job in in a different field or something, or a different state and like all those friends you made in high school and college, maybe you don't see each other as much anymore. But you share that. You share, stay with you. So like, I mean, we'll take if we see each other out, you know, randomly or if we end up hanging out, it's like it's always a great time. You have you would you say you have like a deep respect for each other and what you guys did together? Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think that's what like kept us together for as long as we were, to be honest, because things were never really like bad within the group. There were a couple of things along the way that were shouldn't have happened. But like what? I've never really talked about this. Well, you don't have to. But if you don't mind, I'm just looking for context. When you say that, it's very like this. It sounds very like a secret. OK, these are like the boyman secrets. There were there was some stuff that happened. Was it like drug stuff? No, it was like personal relationship stuff where certain people were kind of stepping over boundaries. And I'll leave it at that. I don't want to incriminate anybody. But there were a couple of things that happened along the way that were that's very, you know, that's that's sounds ominous. Yeah, it's there were just some decisions made along the way that were not for the good of the group and were just a few that were selfish and selfishness. Yeah, someone looking out for themself. Yeah, OK, but being sneaky about it. Right, right. As people are when they're doing stuff like that. Yeah, dishonest and yeah, dishonest. A little backstabby moments. OK, that makes sense. I think it's natural to some extent. Well, I think it's not it's natural. I think it happens. And I think it's how you deal with it that matters the most. I mean, there's certain things that you can't really prevent, at least from my perspective, you know, and a couple of these things were done to me personally. OK, so so here's what I think. I think you're in a very you're in a very cutthroat business. Yeah, everybody's dealing with different levels of self-esteem. Yeah, different levels of intelligence, different levels of emotional intelligence. And so when you get four guys or four guys, five, five, so you get five guys, throw them into a situation where they're kind of bound to one another. And then you've also got this really unhealthy relationship with this probably probably, I'm guessing, from my experience of what I know. You probably have a really dishonest, mostly dishonest or let's say even halfway dishonest relationship with a production company who's never going to tell you the truth exactly because we need you to keep doing this the way we want you to do it. So we're going to tell you what we need you to do and we're going to manipulate you. So it's a lot of manipulation. Yeah. So then it's set up from the start to be a little dishonest. For sure. And then you're kind of forcing yourself to try and be you're surviving. Yeah. And then everyone does that different. Yeah. For sure. One guy is going to lie about this. One guy is going to go and try to make side deals. One guy is going to and then you're these four kids have grown up in this kind of like unhealthy from the start set up. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's always going to be a little navigate that and like stay close. And you know, I think the one thing that got us through was for the majority of the time we were in the band, we knew that we had each other like this. Right. But was there one guy that you feel like really held you down? Did you have like one one friend? Yeah. The situation that happened with me happened with the guy who in the band was my best friend in the band at the time. Oh, that hurts more. Yeah. It's pretty crazy, man. There's some beans I can't spill, but you don't have to. Yeah. And maybe like fans listening have more probably could like there's probably like little like riddles they could solve. They know more than I do. Yeah. And I don't want to know actually anything that you don't want to share because I don't I truly don't. I will say I just had a reconciliation, not the same situation at all. This this was a dear friend of mine. Didn't do you wrong, but he hurt my feelings. Yeah. And at an older age, so it's different. So it's not as doesn't feel as all encompassing when you're older. Right. But it was really a meaningful friendship and he hurt my feelings. And it made me question. Are we really friend like right did something where I was like, are we really friends? Like I thought like to me a friend, there's no veil. There's no curtain. There's no I bring my whole self. I'm really honest and I shut down though the way I handled it wrong. I shut him out instead of being more like therapeutic about it and going like, hey, dude, I feel like this. You hurt me and I care about our friendship. So here's my side of the story. Here's what I feel like happened. Yeah. And we just did that after a few years. Yeah. And looking back on it, I regret not doing it sooner because it was a really like healing experience. And I also feel like as a man, too, like I feel like more of a man. Yeah. Weirdly. Yeah. Like I know that because you stepped over a looming cloud, you know, and like we're the bigger person. And he was too. Yeah. We ran into each other like that. Sometimes we ran into each other at a friend's show. And it caught us both off guard. And I was like, oh my God, man, I miss you so much. You were like right here. Right now. And we didn't do it there, though. We both said it's not the place for time. And he said the same thing. And then he was like, we both agreed like we can't do this here, but we need to. And so he said, hey, will you come see me? And I was like, absolutely. And then we did. I did. I went the next week, went over and it was a really beautiful like and it also made me like emotional. Like after I left, I got kind of emotional because I felt like I missed like a few years of his life. And I love this guy. Yeah. And I wish I would have just called him sooner and spoke my heart to him. Yeah. He participated in it, though. He heard me and he acknowledged it. And then he said how he felt and I heard him. Yeah. And we both met. You have to do that. Works is yeah. Yeah. You got to meet. You both have to meet in there. Where each other are. Yeah. And some people just emotionally can't do that. Yeah. I think the difference with my situation was I was ignoring some red flags, choosing to ignore them. And when it all came to a head, it was kind of like, oh, OK, so that's how it really is. And I kind of came to the realization of like, oh, that's also really hard. Yeah. And it might not be something that can be repaired. Yeah. I don't know. It's. I don't know. I feel a lot less emotional about it now. It's been a few years. That's good. But in the moment, it was crazy. It was like that happened in the middle of the pandemic and then right like after that, maybe it was right before that. We got into this lawsuit with our production company. So it was like this like jab left hook, uppercut. We were like, oh, shit, man. What the hell is going on? Yeah. But we made it out. And I think I'm better for it now. No doubt. And looking back at all of it, it's like, I feel like all encompassing the entire duration. Why don't we? I learned so fucking much shit about all aspects of life, just about people and about, you know, being social and about community and society in general and about business and learned so much about music and so much about friendship and brotherhood and and just about like being there for people and being. I think the biggest thing was like the fact that I was a part of something that was bigger than myself. You know, so like finding my role in all of that. Yeah. Yeah. And just soaking it all in, you know, and for pretty much the entire time we were a group. We were a very democratic group. So it was like, it was a democracy. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, we never really got into disagreements or arguments about small things or even big things. It always kind of came to and there was five of us. So there was pretty much always a majority vote, you know, so it's three versus two. And if it was three versus two, we go with we go with the three. I think some of our opinions honestly held a little bit more weight than some of the other opinions. It's like that. On the topic, it's like that. And it was like that in groups. It has to be. But we rarely disagreed, which was part of the magic as well. It was like, we all knew what we wanted. And the most we really disagreed over was like whether or not we should record a certain song that came to our inbox. Right. You know. But like just the memories and shit were crazy. I mean, getting on stage every night and doing what we did. And so I miss that so much because I haven't I think I haven't played a sh haven't toured in. Since 2019. So are you going to tour with the new music? Yeah. If you look at the past 10 years, if you looked at it like, OK, I went to college and then I went to grad school and then I went to grad school again. And I got a master's degree in marketing and production and performing in creative direction. And you started to actually list out all the skills you've acquired over the last 10 years at a young age. Yeah. Right. So now you look ahead and you go, what can I do with these skills? Yeah. Well, I love to make music. So you should keep doing that. Yeah. But isn't it going to be a better version of what you've done because of what you what experience you have? For sure. And I think the biggest difference you put that so eloquently, I think the experience this time around is so different. And for a while, it took me a good like year, year and a half to like really figure out who I was or who I thought I was or what I wanted to be and what I wanted to say outside of being in a group. Because, you know, you play a certain role and like for a long time, I think it's also natural. That role becomes this version of you because you're so engulfed in it every day, you know, and not that it's entirely a character, you know, you're playing a version of yourself. Yeah, of course. But you play a specific role. And so what was your role you think in that group? I was like the like or do your best to describe it. Yeah. I think I was like the kind of nerdy but also swaggy, like smooth tone, charmer. OK. So that was another big thing coming out of the group into the solo stuff was like, can I carry a song? You know, what is my what do I sound like? And I think for the first like year, year and a half, I kind of got caught trying to make a sound or trying to make music that I thought people wanted to hear from me. And so I put out a couple of records that I think now kind of sounded like they could have been. Why don't we songs? My first single actually was an old Why Don't We song that never came out. OK. I feel like honestly, I would do that over if I could. But really? Yeah, it's a good song. But I was very lost at that time. And I think I was. What do you have to lose from it? Nothing really to a more explosive debut, I think. OK, but what if you were a controversial debut, something like when JT came out in sync, right? And he went straight R&B. Yeah, but that was a different time, dude. For sure. For sure. What I'm saying is, is like, what if like, OK, hear me out. It feels like this latest song. Who's the girl? Chewy from twice. OK, she's also super cool. Yeah, I saw it and I was like, these kids are cool. The fuck. This is cool. Yeah, she's. But I'm just saying like it feels like it's going really well. Yeah, it is, it is. And I say all of that stuff without saying that it's not going well. Although I will say Blink has been kind of the anomaly so far. Yeah, that's what I'm saying though, is you try a couple things. Yeah. And what I would argue is what if it what if you did come out with the big Justin Timberlake bang and you weren't ready for it? Yeah, that's a really good point. Like what if I wasn't ready for it at the time? That's what I'm saying. It's like what if what if like life knows more than you? Yeah. And what if like that first single wasn't supposed to be? Who knows what that affects? Yeah. Who knows if that big first song is the biggest thing in the world and oh, it's great. I'm going to be fucking this person. Do you what if you what if it's not the best thing for you to be that person? Yeah. Like what if you get there on your own way? Yeah. And like you can live with it. Yeah. Versus die doing it. Yeah. And I think that that's what has happened. You know, you know, I think. I'm just saying. No. And I think you're right about it because it took me a year to really figure out like it took me trying shit. I didn't think that I could pull off for me to be like, oh, I've just been scared of this the whole time or this was in me and I didn't know that it was. And also the idea that it took me a year to start making stuff that I wanted to make versus making stuff that I liked but thought but was for somebody else. Yeah. You know, and it was my A&R at my label at the time that kind of pulled me out of that. What label are you on? I'm on BMG. OK, cool. And yeah, they're cool. Yeah. They've treated me really well. And yeah, it's labels. It's but it's great when you find a champion at in a building. And they gave me a super artist friendly deal. Yeah. Which I just yeah, thanks man. I couldn't deserve it. And thank you. You earned it. Thank you. Complete juxtaposition. But that's why you have it. Yeah. Yeah. How to do that to get here. But you drew the line because you knew there was a line that you could draw. Yeah. And when we don't know there's a line we can draw, we don't draw it. Yeah. And then that's how we get exploited. Yeah. And granted, they loved my first single, which was the reason they signed me. So I can't I can't badmouth it too much. And it's a good song. I see, you know, I'm saying this. So that's the thing, though, is like you've got all this experience and you can. And so what my what I and I'm sitting with you, artist to artist, but I'm 46. I'm almost 20 years older than you. I'm up the road. And you're you came up the road to meet the future. Yeah. And I'm telling you from the future. Hey, so here's the deal. Yes, it's a long road. Yeah. And there's a couple versions of this, right? And like, what if I played the what if the ghost of Christmas future came to you and said, I'm going to play you a couple different movies. One of them, you're the biggest thing in the world, but you're going to die on a toilet when you're 41. Or when you're 40. You're going to be sitting on the toilet and you're going to have a heart attack from promopiotes, right? And you're the biggest, you're the biggest thing in the world. Yeah. You have everything you thought you wanted. There's another version. Insane story. If you like, yeah. Right. But when we say I want to be, you know, and I mean this with the most love and respect for Elvis, because I love Elvis, but it's a tragic story. It's not a great story. Yeah. It's the tragic side of of success. If, if not grown organically and healthy and we don't stop and go, hey, kid, listen forget about all them. None of them. What do you want? And then you, and then you start going towards what you want, which is it's okay, music success, all that, right? And all that comes with it. Some of it is it's great if you can actually hold it. Yeah. If it overwhelms you and the tidal wave crashes over you and you crash and burn. Well, they'll all love watching that. Trust me, but not crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. But what I'm saying is, is like, but you're a real person. Yeah. And then, and then I think it's something like you're only 27. Yeah. So you look ahead and you go, what kind of life do I want to build? Well, I love performing and I want to write hit songs and I want to have that. You're still at the beginning of touching your dreams. Yeah. You should do it. Yeah. But don't be afraid and then make those decisions based on what you're excited about. Yeah. Instead of what you think is going to make that person happy and are all those people. Yeah. Coming to that realization was super enlightening. It's also been interesting. And I think you probably experienced this. Everyone in their early mid twenties has probably experienced this. The amount of changing you do as a person from 21 to now 27, like even like 23 to 27, even 25 to 27. Dude, it's it's crazy. Every year has been so full of just like internal change, external change, changing of priorities. Like and in music, for me at least, it's been like this shift from telling someone else's story to like trying to find a way to tell my own. And like that shift has been kind of crazy to try to navigate. Been very fun. And I've been blessed to like work with some people that have like really tried to pull the best out of me, which I feel like not everybody gets the chance to. And but it's also been fun, just like discovering parts of myself that I didn't know were there and also like falling in love with music in a way that I haven't before, you know, I love, I've always loved music and being in the group. Music has got me to where I am, but it was never as personal as it is now. I never really had as much of a hand in the creation of it as I do now. And so like that has been a whole new world that's opened up and it's been so fun, like the EP that's coming out in January. The turning point, I think for me was last like October. What's the name of the EP? It's called Headfirst. So the EP comes out in two days. Yeah. And it's called Headfirst. It's called Headfirst. Yeah. Cool, man. And yeah, thanks. It's the narrative is it's kind of nail on the head. It's just about like diving in Headfirst into like officially diving into like who I am and my journey in music and my career. And I've just dropped singles kind of up to this point. So this is like the first actual body of work that feels cohesive. And the songs are very different than anything that I have dropped before. And it feels like probably so cliche to say, but it just feels like the most authentic version of like who I am right now. And I think I had to do all of the earlier stuff to get here for sure. A great story like Monsters, Inc. stays with you forever. And Disney Plus is where you'll find your next great story from the return of the award winning hit series, Rivals. Welcome to the naughtiest show on television to the unmissable crime drama, High Potential, a lifetime of great stories awaits this spring on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required, T's and C's apply. But wouldn't you say, though, that like that's how every record should feel? Yeah, I think so. And that even though I've never really felt it like that before, right? Even with the Why Don't We albums, it was like. But that's also part of maturity. Yeah. Because like what happens, I think, in the in these young careers, because I got started young, too. And how old are you when you started? I mean, when I signed my record deal was 1920. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had been touring for a couple of years. But we had a more of like a a band kind of in a van, touring regionally, wherever we could. And then we started kind of getting national in the 90s. It was like Eve Six was a band. They took us on tour because we had opened for them locally. And like we we became a band in the region of like D.C. Maryland, Virginia. Like if a big band came through and their ticket sales were not high enough, the promoter would throw us on and we'd sell like 2000 more tickets. So we had like a real started to have a following. And then we were just touring in like a minivan. Yeah, just going wherever New York, Pennsylvania. All up and down the East Coast. Yeah, our first tour was wasn't a minivan. It was a Sprinter van. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same thing. Yeah, yeah. Fun, dude. Treacherous, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super fun, really wild. Yeah, tough, though. Tough. Living out of a van is no joke, man. Hotels and vans. Yeah. No joke, man. The world kind of beats you up a little bit. And a couple of these legal things happen or this happens and you you have to grow up real fast. Yeah. And then you start suddenly start to come into your self, actually. Because that's what it forces you to do. So that's why I say I don't know if it was so bad. Yeah, because if we were sitting here today and you were still in, why don't we doing that? I'm not sure if you'd be completely you who you are. I don't think I would. And happy. Yeah. As a person. Yeah. It's not taking away what you did. But don't you deserve as a person to make decisions for you for sure to be happy for sure. And that's been the most liberating thing about this whole experience. And it's part of the reason that I called the EP headfirst, even though there's not a song called headfirst on the EP, you know, thought about writing one, though. You know, you still can. Yeah, I named the EP first. But yeah, I might do like a release after a little deluxe, but it's one extra track. You write some rules. Quickly, I can turn it around. But you get to do it over the fuck you want. Yeah. What's the K-pop connection? The K-pop connection for Blink specifically. Yeah. Kind of a couple of different things. First, I had been wanting to do something on the artist side of K-pop for a long time. I had you've always been interested in it. Yeah. And I've been watching it. Yeah. And I've been watching it bubble over the years. And I remember seeing BTS back in 20, I think it was 2016 or 2017 at the Billboard Music Awards. I mean, the guys were there. We were like, who are these guys? And they came and I think they won Best New Artist. They won something there that we were like, who are these guys? And then fast forward a couple of years later, we wrote a song that was supposed to be for us that ended up getting pitched out and Lauv wanted it and he put BTS on it. And so that was like our first and my first big K-pop cut. And then a couple of years later, it was like a year or two later, I had a song that I wrote on. That's a big success. Oh, dude, most random. Yeah, it was crazy. Dude. I woke up one morning and saw the producer agreement in my email and I was like, I didn't even know this song got sent out. I was like, you guys can have this. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. Take this song. Please take it. And I think it did 300 or 400 million streams. That's crazy. Really big record. It's a cool song. It's called Who. Cool. So if you're, if you ever want to check it out, I'll listen to it in the car. And yeah, it's like a, it's a six, eight kind of waltzy, like, ballad, emotional. I don't know who we wrote it about at the time. We were writing it for us, but it's cool though. I'm glad they took it. Yeah. And then I had an NCT 127 cut a couple years later on a song called Angel Eyes. And then a couple of my bandmates had written a song for twice called I Got You. I think it's the name of the song now. I think they changed some lyrics and whatever. But that was my kind of distant association with, with twice was, I wasn't there the day that they wrote the song, but I remember the demo coming through and being stoked about it and they got that cut. So I had been kind of participating kind of loosely on the songwriting side. And when I wrote Blink back in, it was October last year. It's been a little over a year. Well, October 24, we wrote it with the intention of having a female on the chorus. At the time we had my producer, his name is Tenrock. We did, I think five out of the six songs in the EP I did with him. He sang the chorus originally and ran it through AI, Format Shift, turned it into a girl voice just so we could hear. That was the first time I actually kind of saw AI in music as well. Interesting landscape, I will say. Very, very. I think it's, I will say this and then I'll continue my story. I think it's a beautiful tool if used correctly. And I think that, I love AI. I think it's great, man. I think it can be misused very easily. I use chatCBD all day every day. I think there's a little bit, I might get some shit for this, but I think there's a stigma around it. And I think there's a little bit of bandwagon. I understand why because it can be misused. But I think if you're a creative, AI will never replace human creativity. No, yeah. Or cool. Or cool. It never will. It's not possible because that comes from the soul and it comes, and people decide what that is. Absolutely. So I'll leave it at that. But that was my first time kind of seeing that in the studio and it was really interesting. And so all of a sudden we had this girl voice in the chorus and I was like, oh, this record is going to be sick. I'm going to hold this record until we have the perfect person. I told my A&R, I was like, I will hold this for two years, longer if we don't get the perfect person. Like this song feels very special and it feels fresh and it has a timelessness to it. And so we had a bunch of discussions about people and about Western artists and Latin artists. And eventually he came to me and was like, how would you feel if we went and got a K-pop idol on it? And I was like, I'm super down. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. I guess I maybe thought that it was kind of out of reach. Yeah, yeah. Or that it might not make sense. Yeah. And he was like, what if I could get Chewy from twice? And I was like, please reach out, see if she'd be down. I would love that. I think she'd be great. He's been friends with her A&R for some time or for the group's A&R. And he reached out, her A&R came back and was like, not sure if they're doing solo records right now, but like send me the song and I'll play it for her and see if she likes it. Don't get your hopes up. And he was like, all right, sent to the song and like two days later she came back and she was like, hey, she absolutely loved the song and she absolutely wants to do it. And I heard the trumpets playing in my bedroom when I got that text. Yeah, that's good. That's good news. Yeah. And so then I was curious how her vocal was going to sound on it because I had been living with this AI demo version for almost like six, eight months. At that point, I hadn't listened to it in a while. She sent her vocal back and it was, I mean, it'd be cliche to say it was perfect, but it was damn near. And we were like, fuck yeah, we got it. It's cool. This is the one. And it's super cool. I like it. Yeah, thanks man. And then we went to Korea to shoot the video and how is that fucking amazing. Her and her team were so like welcoming and just like cool and fun. And it was, I guess not what I had expected because the way the industry runs out there, it's like, it's so much, it runs like a machine here, but it's a machine over there. And so I kind of went into it, you know, expecting things to be a little bit more corporate, but a little bit rigid is a good word. And it just wasn't, it was, it was really strange. And their culture is a little bit different and they're not, you know, a very physically warm culture typically. So, you know, I think Americans are a lot more like huggy. Yeah, yeah. We're loud and we, yeah. Yeah. So me and three of my, my friends who are some of my favorite creatives. And with my creative director, his longtime friend who's a DP and my choreographer. And so it was just four guys and a dream. So good to meet you, man. Yeah, thanks for coming on the show. Hell yeah, thanks for having me. Congrats on the EP and thank you. Good luck with the tour. Thank you. Congrats on all the success. I hope that you, you know, you celebrate all these past 10 years, everything you did with with the band and everything you're doing now. You know, it's one song at a time. It's one year at a time. It's one tour at a time, one show at a time. And um, Trying to just take it all as that. Yeah, man. And just, you're doing good. One foot in front of the other, keep stepping and just like do stuff that if I believe in it, then it's right. Yeah, man. You know, I'm glad I got to meet you. You said then done some days, but yeah, you too, man. Stuck to be here. Cool, man. I love the space. Thanks. I love your energy. Thanks for having me. Cool. Thanks. Thank you for watching artist friendly. If you liked this episode, please make sure you hit the like button. You follow the channel and please share it with your friends. We appreciate the support. That is why this show exists because you listen to it. Thank you guys. We'll see you next time.