Screenwriter Katie Dippold discusses her new horror-comedy series Widow's Bay on Apple TV+, sharing insights about running her first TV show after 18 years of development. The conversation covers advice for younger selves entering Hollywood, dealing with critics and reviews, and navigating the entertainment industry.
- Fear can be an effective motivator but comes with emotional costs - it powers productivity but leads to burnout
- Understanding the 'soft pass' in Hollywood is crucial - when executives say 'maybe' or 'let me get back to you,' they're often saying no without being direct
- Finding your creative community early (the 'weirdos' who share your sensibilities) is more valuable than trying to fit into conventional groups
- Detailed communication with executives and producers actually leads to less interference, not more - transparency builds trust
- Dwelling on perceived injustices or stolen ideas becomes a creative poison that defines and limits your career growth
"I would assure myself that my suspicion that everyone was stupid was correct. Everyone is faking it. There's so many frauds."
"Don't let this define you. It is a poison in your veins to dwell on injustice, whether perceived or in fact."
"I've been working on this. This was like my park scene sample, 18 years ago. I've been working on it ever since."
"The biggest lesson I feel like I've been learning for the past 15 years is not thinking about what should I be doing, but wait, what do you want?"
Hey, this is John. Standard warning for people who are in the car with their kids. There's some swearing in this episode. Hello and welcome. My name is John August. Ho, ho, ho, ho.
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My name is Craig Mason, and this
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is episode 734 of ScriptNotes. It's a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Today on the show, we welcome back a writer whose credits include the Heat, Ghostbusters at Haunted Mansion. Her incredible new show, Widow's Bay is now out on Apple tv.
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What a dramatic pause. Her incredible new show, Widow's Bay.
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Welcome back to the program after 10 years. Katie Dippold.
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Very happy to be here. I've been trying to get back in here for the past decade.
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Clawing your way back in.
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There's anything I can do?
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You were last on the show, episode 272.
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500 episodes ago, 2016.
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One of my favorite memories of that episode was when. Remember when Malcolm, you asked him something and he was just quiet, and then he was like, I'm out of gas. You're like, that's it. You're just done. He's like, I'm done.
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He was great.
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I respected it so much.
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That's what Malcolm. Malcolm used to play D and D with us, and at some point he would just get up and lie down and sleep.
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Yeah, he knows how to live.
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We can't have you on the show without talking about our special connection. We always need to discuss our special connection. Katie Dippold and I both lived or attended school In Freehold, N.J. competing high schools. She was at the somewhat tonier Freehold Township. I was at the sort of rough, around the edges. Freehold Borough.
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Never heard of it.
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Yeah, I was from the bad side of the Tracks.
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I love it.
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Also where Bruce Springsteen was from. No big deal.
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Yes, he went to Borough.
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That's right.
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That's because he was a little rough around the edges.
1:45
Yes. Yes.
1:47
Now, Katie, for folks who don't know who you are, they actually do know who you are because you are famous for being an incredibly talented writer, but you're also probably more famous on the Internet because of one Halloween costume you wore and the situation in which you wore it. Do you want to recap why the world knows who you are?
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There is a tweet that shows a photograph that I can't remember the tweet. It's like when you think you're going to a Halloween party, but it ends up being an adult drinking wine kind of vibe. And I'm dressed fully as the Babadook face, makeup, wig, hat, coat. And no one was dressed up. And my friend Jesse snapped the photo. But also what the photo doesn't show is like, I sat there for an hour and a half watching a movie like that.
2:05
Yeah.
2:28
You know, well, once you're there, what are you gonna do?
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No, someone asked me like, why don't you just take off the hat? I'm like, that wasn't gonna help anything.
2:31
No, I'm still. Got the weird glasses on or the. Does he have glasses?
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The goggles. I mean, no glasses.
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No.
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But there's like a dark room around the eyes.
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Yeah, that's what it was.
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Something like that. A monochrome kind of makeup look. It is fantastic. And it's a moment. And it also is the intersection of horror and comedy, which is Widow's Bay, which is exactly what we're here to talk about.
2:44
Segue man.
2:55
That's what I am. So I wanna talk about Widow's Bay. Your show is genuinely fantastic. Drew and I watched it.
2:55
Have you seen more than two episodes?
3:01
I've only seen the first episode. I haven't seen the second episode yet.
3:02
Okay. Cause you're talking like you've seen the whole show. I've seen two episodes, which I loved, but now I started getting jelly. But you've only seen one.
3:04
No, no, we didn't get the links or anything.
3:12
You're just watching it on Apple tv.
3:15
I'm just watching on Apple TV like everyone else. Yeah, like every other American person in the world. I'm watching Widow's Bad American Person in the World. I want to talk about your show, but I also want to talk about what you wish you knew going into this industry. Like, imagine that you're sending an email to your younger self. So it could be to your 15 year old self or when you first arrived in Los Angeles. I did a panel this last week where this was kind of the theme. And I was like. It was actually really insightful thing, like, oh, yeah, what did I know? And what if I could pass along information to your younger self? Things we want to do. So we'll talk about that. We'll answer some listener questions, including, when do you call out someone for stealing your idea or just sort of being not cool? And our bonus statement for premium members. Are there still going to be movies and TV in 10 years? 15 years? We'll talk about that. All big topics. But most importantly, I know a movie that's coming out next week, which is Craig's movie, the Sheep Detectives.
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The Sheep Detectives. What a silly title it is.
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It was once called Three Bags Full.
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It was once called Three Bags Full. It was based on a book written by a wonderful German author named Leone Swan. And Three Bags Full was the title it was released under in the United States. And that's what we called the movie up until MGM was like, yeah, no one's gonna know what that is. But they would know what the Sheep Detectives is. And they're correct.
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They are correct.
4:28
I get it completely. I love this movie so much. I never self promote. I don't, you know, it's not my thing to be like, hey, coming up on Da Da Da. It is the little movie that we hopefully, hopefully could. Because it's, you know, Aline Brosh McKenna's Devil Wears products too. It's crushing it in theaters. Mortal Kombat's gonna be a huge movie. There's all these big movies, and then there's our little sweet sheep movie. It's adorable. And I've watched it with an audience and people laugh and then they cry. My wife and my younger daughter watched it, and they were a sobbing mess.
4:28
Wow.
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In a happy, happy sobbing mess.
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Now, Craig, many critics have liked it, but at least one didn't, because you're not at 100% on rotten tomatoes. And how are you dealing with that grief?
5:04
It's really. It's really hard because I don't have any experience not being at 100 on Rotten Tomatoes. First of all, the idea of having a movie on Rotten Tomatoes that isn't like in the 20s is shocking for me. You know, like, what? They make tomatoes in another color than green. I continue my very strange, tumultuous relationship with critics. They don't know what to make of
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me at all, understandably.
5:34
They yell at me when I'm like, why is this comedy guy doing drama? Then I do this, and they're like, why is this drama guy doing comedy?
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I feel like you and I could talk about this for years now. That said, you get one good review and you're like, you know what? Critics?
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Well, they do have a point.
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Thank God, you know.
5:51
Well, the thing is, there are movies and television shows that don't need critics at all. Doesn't matter. And I've definitely worked on those. You've worked on those where it didn't really matter what the critics thought. And then there are things that sort of need them for legitimacy. And I think the Sheep Detectives kind of needed it. And. And I could see how Widow's Bay could need it. Meaning, like, it helps separate a little bit, you know, because it's not a built in audience. It's not ip. It's, you know, it's something original. And also you were sporting a 100.
5:53
Yeah. And then someone had to, had to ruin it.
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Some ding dongs came in. The math is bad. Cause then what happens is you're like, oh, now to get back up, I need like 8 more good reviews, Right?
6:25
Oh, you can die yourself. Crazy.
6:33
Yeah.
6:34
I also, it's so funny, I always tell myself like, you know, if a movie comes out and doesn't do well and it's an experience I've had a couple of times, but I said it doesn't matter. Rotten Tomatoes doesn't matter. Every time I put something on like what's the Rotten Tomato score? Like, it's just, you know, doing.
6:34
Yeah, I know.
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Matters very much.
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It is bizarre how everybody, I mean, I assume a lot of critics do put time into the reviews and things and then it just gets mushed into a number.
6:53
The ones that are good and thoughtful and do a really good analysis. It is really is.
7:03
It's lovely.
7:08
It's lovely.
7:09
Yeah. I think when people say nice things about us, we like it. And when they say bad things about us, we don't. I think that's true. We don't like it.
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You're not good at this.
7:17
No. Then I turn to the Teddy Roosevelt quote and I'm like, you don't matter. The ones who matter are the ones who understand what I'm doing and like me.
7:18
That's exactly this week. My instance of the rotten tomatoes was my new book, Wolf's Belly, which comes out July 18th.
7:25
Wait, what?
7:30
I have a book July 18th. I'll give you a copy. So galley's here.
7:31
What? Just a secret book.
7:34
A secret book.
7:35
I didn't know about this. I'm glad I didn't know about this because had known about it and not known about it, I would have been so embarrassed.
7:36
Yeah, absolutely. So we got.
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And she just did it again.
7:43
I just did it again.
7:44
You just did it.
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My book comes out July 18th and I got a Publisher's Weekly starred review which is like a rare thing to get, which is very lovely.
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It's a graphic novel. Congratulations.
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So it's up for pre order now, but there are already reviews online for Goodreads because those things come out early because they send those galleys out and like those have been really nice. But of course there are going to be occasionally like eh, it wasn't for me or the person who gives it like. So it's like five stars or they give it like four stars, and four stars brings you down.
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Well, I think that you are a healthier person than I am about these things. You are very good about. You decide what the worth of what you did is and if whatever people think that's fine. But if you like it, you like it. I think that's healthier. I don't like how easily swayed I can be by other people telling me if I did something well or not.
8:12
I mean, it sounds like we all three have things being reviewed right now. And so obviously the summary of this entire conversation was thank God for the critics.
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Thank God.
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Thank God for the critics.
8:45
Thank God.
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Absolutely without critics.
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They know I love them.
8:48
While we're talking about things being judged and awards, the Academy changed rules this week. And so some summary of some rule changes here in the writing categories. The rules now codify that screenplays have to be human authors, damn it, to be eligible, which I think is just reasonable.
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Who are they going to hand the Oscar to if a computer wrote it?
9:03
Yeah. So I think that's kind of an obvious one. A better, more interesting one for me is on international feature films right now. Yes, it's always been the country submits, and it's always been controversial because, like, the country may not submit their best film or like a great film from the country won't be submitted. So now if it has been qualifying award at some of the major international feature film festivals like Berlin or Busan or Sundance or Venice, if it's one of the awards there, it's also eligible for that. And so it can.
9:09
So a government can't just sort of go, yeah, we don't like this one.
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And so the award now goes to the director as the beneficiary rather than to the country.
9:40
That's interesting. Yeah, that is interesting.
9:45
Yeah, I think it's a good change.
9:47
That's a smart change. And I also saw that now actors can be nominated multiple times in a category.
9:48
Yes.
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Would they want that?
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It seems like a bad thing for you, but it's happened before. Director Steven Soderbergh was nominated twice in one year. That's nice.
9:57
Did he win for that year?
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That's a great question.
10:09
I think he did. That was Traffic and.
10:10
Okay, that's impressive.
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Aaron Brockovich.
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Aaron Brockovich. I think Aaron Brockovich, he won for Aaron Brockvich.
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I think he ran for Traffic with
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Altriffic is a better movie.
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So anyway, changes, and they seem thoughtful changes.
10:20
Absolutely. And you know, obviously, Katie, you and I are perennial Oscar considerables.
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Right.
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We're Always in the mix.
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Right?
10:33
Right.
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Always. Always in the topics.
10:34
Yeah. So this is always. I keep careful track of this sort of thing. The Talking Sheep movie.
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We have some house gaming to get through first. And most important is we're putting out a scriptnos listener survey. So we want to know things about our listeners. Not for marketing purposes, because there's no marketing. Because to sell their data, we don't want to know any of that stuff. But we're curious about, like, which segments people love the most, which things I want to hear more of. There's some things we might try out and we're sort of curious what people think of those things. I'm just sort of curious who our listeners are, how many are in the US what education level people have. Because my prototypical user is in college or like finishing college. But that may not be accurate. So we're just curious.
10:39
I feel like our listener base might be older than you think.
11:14
Yeah. I'm also curious. One of the questions is, like, how many people who are listening to the podcast are actually working in the film and television industry versus just like, like to listen to the podcast.
11:16
All good things to know.
11:24
Yeah.
11:26
It'd be so funny to find out. It's just ages 60 to 62.
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So incredible.
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Just a very specific.
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Like a steep drop off after 62.
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No awareness before it.
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59, nothing. 60, boom.
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Yep.
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Like there's a free thing, free premium with your ARP subscription and then they get it for a couple years and they're out.
11:40
No, it's like, no, this is not. This is not good.
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No, it's not good.
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So there'll be a link in the show notes for that. So please click through there.
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60 to 62. Do you see why Katie DePold is good?
11:50
Yeah. Because like she. It's a specificity of that joke that is.
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64 would have been bad. 62 is correct.
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I appreciate that.
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So good.
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Yeah.
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Craig, I want to do another random advice episode. Remember we've done those and people write in with like non screenwriting questions. Non writing questions.
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We attempt to be wise.
12:07
Yeah.
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Because we have.
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We have opinions about a lot of things. So we'll try that. So send in those questions to Drew. So send in askohnauclaux.com and just label it like random advice. So we know to sort of put those in a different category for that. We have a new version of Weekend Read out there. So people use Weekend Read on their phones to read scripts. The new version is really nice and actually has some really helpful features in Terms of marking what you haven't read, what's new for you. You can get through long scripts faster. There's a new scroll bar, so try that out. Last bit of follow up. We had Hailey Z. Boston on the show. She was talking about something very bad is going to happen, which was terrific. And on that, I had her read through the first page of her script, which, Craig, you would have loved, because there's no dialogue, and yet every word on there is just delicious and delightful. Drew and our team put together a YouTube video for Hailey. She's reading it, but we're also, like, scrolling the page as you're doing it, and so you can see, like, all the choices she's making. And was there a lot of white space? No paragraph is more than two lines long. She's using italics and bold and really interesting ways. It just is drawing you down in a smart way. So because this is mostly an audio medium, it's fun to do a visual at times. Yeah. And so seeing that is there.
12:09
Love that.
13:17
So we'll put a link in the show. Notes to that.
13:17
Love it.
13:18
Housekeeping done. Katie Hippold, your show is so delightful. And I didn't know what it was going to be when I pressed Play, which is so much fun. It comes up and the opening title feels like a Stephen King book. Stephen King book cover. What was the pitch? Cause Drew has a really good pitch for it. But I'm curious what your pitch was for it on the initial thing. Like, what is the idea? What's the logline?
13:19
The logline is a mayor of a New England island town desperate to bring in tourism, is warned by locals that it's cursed.
13:40
Great.
13:47
And they are right.
13:48
And they are clearly right.
13:49
Now, Drew, can you give us your pitch?
13:51
It's Fawlty Towers, but where John Cleese's character is the mayor from Jaws.
13:52
That's great.
13:57
Yeah.
13:58
Yes.
13:59
Yeah, yeah.
13:59
It definitely has Mayor from Jaws feeling to it.
14:00
Yes.
14:02
You know, shut it down. Shut it all down. And New England, of course, Fawlty Towers, because the people there are hysterical.
14:02
Yeah. They're just. They're so pushed.
14:10
They're so funny.
14:12
And I can't even imagine how you found the pitch Perfect tone so that. What? It didn't just all, like, blow up at every moment. It's just so cleverly done and, like, they're so eccentric and so extreme, and yet everyone's playing the same song. It's so hard to do.
14:13
That's really nice. I've been working on this. This was like my park scene sample, 18 years ago.
14:28
Incredible.
14:33
I've been working on it ever since.
14:33
Give us the whole backstory. Tell us, like, how this all started.
14:34
Okay. I had just finished at MADtv. I wanted to do something like this. Like, I'm a comedy writer, but I love horror so much, and I just wanted something like this to exist. You know, I want to go to this place. But then I heard Parks and Rec was hiring, so I quickly wrote a pilot, and so I think that got me the job. Worked there for several seasons.
14:37
So you worked this as a pilot?
14:55
Yes.
14:56
How close is the pilot you wrote to what we actually see in the pilot episode?
14:57
Okay. It's much more comedic. It's like, joke, joke, joke. But then. And that's why I think that gave Mike Schur an idea of my sense of humor, and I think the heart of that is still there. But I kept thinking when I would revisit it, I'm like, I don't know that I would watch this show. Like, I want it to be taken seriously. Like, I want to feel. Like, I want to feel tension. I want to be scared. I want. And so I had to keep taking it apart and putting it back together. I mean, there's years worse than not funny or scary, you know? Terrifying process.
15:00
What a great mix.
15:32
Yeah. That's what you want.
15:33
Boring in every possible way.
15:35
Yes. Really had a lot of that for a while, and then I got, I don't know, something after doing, you know, like, the last couple movies. They're hard to do, you know? And so I just wanted to do something just completely original because it was a tough time for a while. And then I'm like, I just. You know what? I might as well just take one real crazy, creative swing, you know?
15:36
There you go. You know, you and I have lived some parallel lives here, caught in the same thing. And at some point, you do need to just step back and go, are we allowed to curse on this show?
15:58
Yeah, sure.
16:11
Fuck it. I love that I talk about this like I've never been on the show. It's episode 700 and whatever. And I love that you did that. And also, I do think that you can tell this is the product of somebody who is not 25. Like, you are covering all these ages of people. Teenager, dad, older people. You got this whole thing kind of on lockdown. It feels the mayor. Loftus. Loftus. Loftus feels like such an adult.
16:12
Right.
16:41
But he's also a kid, which I love. I mean, one of my favorite moments is when Steven Root's character Kind of calls him out and says, like, oh, you used to ding dong ditch me, except you never actually rang the bell. You're a coward. And that was when he was 11. And you're like, you can see that little boy in the sky all the time. But what I really appreciate this is where the show won my heart. So you haven't seen the second episode?
16:42
I haven't seen it yet.
17:07
So I'm gonna give something away.
17:08
It's not a plot twist.
17:09
In the second episode, he has to go stay in the inn, which of course, the locals insist is haunted. They're correct. And at one point he wanders in. He's alone, and he wanders into, like, the parlor where they have drinks and things. And he opens a cabinet. And in that kind of B and B way, there are all these board games, because the board games are wrong. Like, one's called Daddy's Home, but the daddy is clearly drunk and angry. And then there's a box that looks like it would have puzzle pieces and it's a picture of a tooth and it just says teeth, which is amazing. And then there's a deck of cards. And the card game is called Run. And I love that so much. The specificity of that. Like, I could smell that room. Do you know what I mean? Like, I could smell it.
17:11
Oh, that's great.
18:00
And I just loved it. I can't wait to see where this show goes. But I have to assume that part of the process of getting something like that to be that perfect is you working in tandem with a lot of people and casting and all of that, because you haven't run a television show before. So talk about that. Because that's a fun time.
18:01
It's a real different experience than being the movie writer just standing by craft services, pitching jokes every now and then. It's a different thing.
18:27
Yeah, it's very hard, it turns out.
18:38
It's hard whispering this.
18:41
Yeah, it's really exhausting, but it's rewarding. You don't really get a say in much, you know, when you're in features,
18:42
my question is, like, did you realize that things were hysterically funny while you were filming them? Because one of the things that's so different than this versus a Parks and Rec is Parks and Rec is brightly lit. And you. I think you can kind of tell, like, oh, that that's funny that that works here. Like, things are shot mostly realistically and it's not this, like, high key everything. And so do you know that it's just hysterically funny? Like that when the assistant comes in and she's like, oh, is there anything more? And she's like, staring at her clipboard for like 30 seconds.
18:51
It's like, so great.
19:18
No, that's it. Did you know that it was funny at the moment?
19:19
It's. It's different. Like, I. Okay, like the board games, for example. That's like, I. Like I. You're not watching. This show has. It's a lot about little details and specifics. And I think, like, the way approaching it is a lot of blink and you'll miss it. And that's okay, you know, like, it's less presenting a big joke. It is different than being on set with, like, Melissa McCarthy saying something hilarious and you're laughing out loud. But also, like, these actors are so good in the show. Like, just their performances would get me. But it is different. Like, it's more. It's interesting. There's a lot of times too, like the director, Hiro Mirai, we would just be also, like, looking at each other. Like, does this feel right? Like, this feels bad. It's a lot of, like, following your stomach if something felt good or bad. And when something feels good, bad in this show, it really will take you out of it.
19:23
So it's harder because you're. Weirdly. You're very joke dense for something that it doesn't look like it's supposed to be funny from the outside, but they're
20:13
not in the form of jokes, which I love. In fact, it's just people being people. Tell me, okay, because I'm new to the show and because there's only two episodes currently out. The character, the woman who works in his office, who's not his assistant, but his.
20:20
You talking about Patricia the Cato Flynn brunette, or Rosemary the smoker?
20:36
No, no, Patricia.
20:40
Patricia.
20:41
Okay. Yes.
20:42
So funny. That character is just playing a woman who has been left and ignored and is bitter, but also hopeful. And there is something so brilliant about her sitting and talking to Shep, the fisherman who's found who they say he hit his head. We've just put him under to help, you know, while the head swelling goes down. And she's talking to him like he's in a coma. And Lofta says, you know, that's. That doesn't. It's only when people are in a coma. She's like, well, I'm sorry for wasting his time. Which is amazing. It's just like the most put upon. Like, you know what, man? I guess, fine. No, that's not a joke. It's real. But it's also funny. I love that.
20:43
Oh, I'm glad.
21:33
I just love that.
21:34
That actress, Kato Flynn. Lovely, lovely woman. And also just incredible to Allison Jones. Great Allison Jones. She sent us her tape, and it was not what I pictured at all, but I was like, oh, but this is the person. This is. She's so good. And she brought so many layers to it. It was like, loosely based off of my mom. She has a similar kind of just wants to be seen, but she also. She can't say the right thing. She just says the. Can I give you an example? I remember Drew was at my mom's house with me, and there was an Eagles game. He's a die hard Eagles fan. And the Eagles started losing and he got really stressed out. And my mom was uncharacteristically soothing. She was like, you know what, Drew? Don't worry. It's okay. It's all gonna work out. I'm like, that does not sound like Ellie dippled. And then the other team scored again, and she goes, well, that's not good. So that was sort of the heart. And then Kate came in and just brought all these other layers and stuff that I wouldn't have imagined. She's incredible.
21:34
Just wonderful.
22:39
So can we talk about the actual production? Because you were clearly in a seaside town for this upstate New York, or she actually in Massachusetts. Okay. And were you block shooting or shooting episode by episode? How did it all work?
22:40
It was block shooting. We had to shoot kind of out of order, too. It was an intense shoot because the scripts. I think it's funny. I think in the beginning, we were really shooting for the stars and just trying to do as much as possible. And then no one really told us not to in the room. And also I remember Drew Goddard talking about Cabin in the woods. And he said that if he had known how hard he was, glad he didn't know how hard it was gonna be, because he would have done. And so it's a similar thing here. I'm glad I didn't realize how, but
22:53
I believe you can tell. So that's. There is an amount of care and attention. It's funny, when I watch shows now, I will in the back of my head sort of also still be. Because we're making the third season right now, and I'm so in it. I start thinking about things like coverage, you know, and like, oh, that's outside at night. That's fun. And I wonder how many takes and how many angles and how much time and how many meetings were based just to Figure out that room. The art department has to come up with what the teeth game looks like. There's so much. It's hard and it pays off.
23:26
Yeah. Oh, that's nice. I have to say, this production team, they were insane in the best way. The props department, when you see the rest of the show, this props department, I don't know how they did it. I mumble that every day. I'm like, I don't know how props did it. Like the production designer. That whole episode two, the whole inside is a build.
24:05
Oh, yeah.
24:22
You could tell, like, I mean, you could tell in a good way, you know, because you can't get the cameras around and like, a hotel wouldn't have that parlor like that. But I loved it so much. Like, I thought that was such a brilliant thing to like. What ends up happening is you find a location and they're like, can only be here for eight days because of the season. Blah. And also, it's not perfect. And the electricity and you can't get equipment in. It was so perfect.
24:23
Everyone on, working on. I don't know what it was. Everyone working on the show was just really game for it.
24:47
That's great.
24:51
You know what I mean? Like, everyone was.
24:52
They liked it, Katie, because it's good. That's honestly. Here's the thing. I talk to crew people every day. They work on things. Every day we don't, our show ends, they move on to another production. They mostly work on stuff they don't like. They work on things that they read and they're just like, that's just how it goes. I think people get excited when they work on something they like.
24:53
Before you got into production, you had to write a bunch of scripts and so you wrote a pilot which obviously rewrote a ton. But I'm looking at the credits and there's like a murderer's row of like really funny people. So talk to us about the process of getting, you know, everything written. Was everything written before you showed up there? What happened?
25:17
Yeah, it was a great room. So I had the pilot written and I did something that was a little tricky, but I'm so glad I did. Which it was not like a room full of all comedy writers. It was, you know, a couple of writers that came from shows like WandaVision. Actually, one of them also had a super funny spec and you know, a couple of my old time comedy friends. One that was a writer on snl, actually, Neil Casey that plays the innkeeper. Or two, you're so funny. Colton Dunn from Keen Peele and Kelly Goleska has done a ton of comedy. And then I also had a playwright. This guy Dave is lovely. And another writer, Alberto or Don, who'd worked on, like, Mrs. Davis. So it was a real stew because I felt like this show was going to need a lot of different kinds of thought process and just different ideas. In the beginning, it was kind of tricky navigating this, but then it got to a point where the, you know, the drama mythology, people are pitching jokes that are hilarious, and the comedy writers are really, like, passionately arguing story points. And so it was very rewarding to see that all come together now.
25:33
So you had been on MADtv, so you're used to, like, that kind of comedy writing. You'd been on Mike Schur's show. So you had a sense of being in a room. This is your first time running a room with this group. How did you approach that? How many weeks did you have? What were your hours like? What did it feel like? What were the nuts and bolts of it?
26:40
So we had 20 weeks, and I kept. The hours were about, like, 10 to 5.
26:54
Yeah.
26:59
I would leave and then keep thinking about it until I go to bed. There's no reason to keep everyone there. You know what I mean? Like, you're the one that needs to do that, I think.
27:00
And over the course of those 20 weeks, were you. You know, there probably was a little bit of a blue sky phase, but, like, Daniel was, like, cranking down. Okay, what happens in this episode? How do we get through this thing? Are you signing people off during that time? How did it work?
27:08
God, it was so crazy. Just, like, feeling my way through this process. Like, I called so many different people. Like, what are we doing? Like, I called you. You know what I mean? We blue skied for about six weeks, four weeks.
27:21
Oh, wow.
27:32
Okay. And just sort of. I knew. I actually knew some of the dilemmas I wanted to happen, and I knew certain kind of things I wanted to do. But then working through it, and it was a very creative, organic process of, like, we just would talk about this just feels fun right now. You know what I mean? Like, let's just do this now. And it was just constantly making those moves, and then people would get sent out to script one at a time.
27:33
When you assembled the room, did you have. Okay, here's. I know how this begins, and I know how it ends.
27:58
Yes.
28:04
So you had that.
28:04
Yes.
28:05
So at least there was a structure that everybody was trying to fill into.
28:06
Yes. And even how it ended, I didn't. There's some Choices in it that came up through the room, which was a very fun debate. Yeah, so I knew the basic, I knew where it was going, but we found so much along the way and everyone was great.
28:09
So you're doing this work in the room. How much are you having to communicate out with producers, with Apple, with other folks about what was happening? Or was it only when you were done with the 20 weeks you could come back and say, here's the show
28:25
I was kind of a lunatic about. I would send like a 30 page outline to the producers in Apple. It was very, very detailed and very specific. And I would start off with like this kind of a summary at the top, like, this is what we're trying to do here and then just really break down each scene. And I also, because this show is so tonally tricky, I just wanted to be as detailed as possible.
28:35
So Even during the 20 weeks while you were going through stuff, they could see, like, this is where we are headed. So if they had sort of big red flag concerns.
28:59
Yes, I think that's wonderful. I think that there is a value in looking at the people that give us all the money to make these things as people that deserve a little caretaking. You know, I mean, I think they work with writers who are so internal sometimes that they get nothing back. They're in the dark, they don't know what's going on. And yeah, some caretaking documents goes a long way. They don't abuse it. I find that it's the opposite, that they give less input, the more detail you give.
29:05
Could not agree more. And in our execs, the Dana and Spencer were, I swear to you, I'm not just saying this because of career
29:33
purposes, because you need them.
29:41
They were awesome. They really, like, I never dreaded their feedback, which is like unusual to say. Yeah, like if they called on the phone, I'm like, look, pick up a phone. I don't like picking up a phone, but. So that's the biggest compliment I can give. But that was Apple. I have to give them credit. They really just kind of let us do it.
29:43
Now, when you were actually making the show, were there any writers besides you around to sort of pitch and do stuff or was it just you? Were you the writer on set?
30:00
Oh, well, I'm very thankful for the strike because having writers on set was such a blessing.
30:08
Okay, so because there was a gap between the things you were shooting in the US we were able to pull.
30:15
You had two writers with you, two writers on set. And so one of them was there the whole time, that's Neil. And then two other writers, Kelly and MacKenzie took turns and it was so nice like also just having people that they were in the room and they understand what we were going for. I really wanted to be on set a lot and make sure we're capturing the moments. But then you have something else prepping. So having a writer being able to go that director because we had three other guest directors come in and then for scouting and just have an eye on things and be able to talk
30:19
to them or if you have a splinter unit like you can. Yes.
30:49
That was really, really, really one.
30:51
I could probably maybe use somebody other than myself.
30:53
No, it's great.
30:56
I'm starting to feel even more terrified by my own life.
30:57
Yeah. Also having people like just also having like funny writers make sure, you know what I mean? Just to talk to about what's going on and stuff like that is just
31:02
lovely people to talk to.
31:12
Yeah, people to talk to.
31:13
That would be nice.
31:14
Make sure. Shows the things you were growing up on. The writers were around and that's part of the reason why things can work.
31:15
Yeah, yeah. Being around funny people is a nice thing.
31:20
Second topic I want to get to is like what you wish you knew. And so for this exercise, let's imagine we get the chance to either talk to our younger selves or send an email to our younger selves. Let's start with our 15 year old self and sort of like who if you could send an email to young Katie about sort of like some advice for her, anything. What are some like headlines you would want her to know?
31:25
I wouldn't have listened to it.
31:47
Yeah, that's honestly true.
31:48
But I would have said, shut up, old woman.
31:50
Shut up.
31:52
But you also know that why you never wear your hair down anymore.
31:52
And yet you also know that you wouldn't listen. So you could probably outsmart this 15 year old Katie because she's an idiot.
31:56
I would hate this advice so much. I would say, you're too boy crazy. None of these boyfriends you're gonna marry. You know, like just read some books. Just read books and don't.
32:01
Oh my God. You're like, get out of here.
32:12
I'm like, fuck off.
32:14
Yeah, seriously, beat it.
32:16
Yeah, yeah.
32:17
Advice to your 15 year old self.
32:18
Well, I certainly wouldn't have said be less girl crazy. I would have been like, yeah, no, have fun. You're gonna get married soon. I think for my 15 year old self I would have said, hey, hold tight, you're gonna be out of here soon.
32:19
Yeah.
32:34
The World was pretty small for me, and I felt like I was supposed to be somewhere and I wasn't sure where. I didn't know. I hadn't yet connected the idea that I would be, you know, doing this for a living. But I would say, don't worry, you'll be out of here soon.
32:34
Yeah. I mean, I wasn't out when I was 15. And so, like. And you can't sort of retroactively say, like, oh, it would have been fine to be like, you don't know. But I think just like, the sense that, like, you will fall in love, you'll be happy, you'll be married, you'll have a family.
32:52
Did you know that you were gay when you were 15?
33:04
I knew I was gay.
33:05
Older self wouldn't be like, by the way. And you're not.
33:06
Yeah, I wasn't like, yeah. You know, you'd be like, oh, yeah. There wasn't anything to act upon at the moment. And I probably could have. I just.
33:09
It was.
33:16
It was cowardice. It's just.
33:16
I don't think that's cowardice.
33:19
I think that's.
33:20
That's.
33:21
It's just. It's. It's not recognizing opportunities that you have.
33:21
Sure.
33:25
But I think in terms of, you know, I was ambitious. I didn't know there was such a thing as screenwriting yet. I didn't know there was. Like, the movies were written.
33:25
I had no idea.
33:32
You know, general advice, just sort of pursue what you're interested in and don't be worried if your tastes and opinions change. That's also part of growing up.
33:33
Yeah.
33:41
But now let's fast forward to. You've arrived in Los Angeles. Maybe you're a year in. Okay, what else can we visit?
33:42
College.
33:49
College, please, let's go to college.
33:50
I think one thing I would have told myself freshman year of college, and I eventually did this. I just wish I got to it sooner. Just find yourself people.
33:51
Oh, yeah.
33:59
You know, like, and I'm. For me, that was some real weirdos. And I'm, you know, in the best possible. Like, I started pledging this sorority, and they're all really nice and lovely, but my stomach was like, oh, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel right. And then I started the theater group and improv group, and, I mean, I had this improv group there that it was just the best group of weirdos. I remember being in a New Jersey diner with them, like, late at night. Like, we weren't going to any party or frat house. Like, there was a Guy that could have been.
34:00
You can see that. The diner, by the way, it's got the two entrances, the little lob. The things go inside. There's a case with the.
34:27
Yeah, yes. And they were just like. So they're all so bizarre in the best way. Like, there was someone that could have been 18 or he could have been 55 years old. I have no idea. But he was the funniest person ever. And, like, finding that those people just changed my life.
34:32
Yeah. Yeah.
34:46
God. Taught myself in college, I think probably I would have said, you do know you're not gonna be a doctor, right?
34:48
Yeah.
34:54
Why don't you do what you want instead of what you're supposed to do? Which I started to do. It just took me a bit, you know, because. Also afraid. Yeah, that's a tough thing because, you know, if your older self comes to you and says, hey, do what you want, there's like an implication and it'll work out. Not like, do what you want also. You're gonna end up alone and addicted. You know, I would have maybe gotten myself off the pre med track a little sooner.
34:55
So I was just back in my undergrad. Last weekend I got an alumni award, which is lovely. And I got to see my campus and sort of, you know, every time you go back to your college campus, you're like, oh, my God, this school is so much smaller than I remember. Like, everything's just closer together and all the things. And it was lovely. I don't have, like, great advice for that kid because, like, I kind of did it right. I picked a school that was like, just the right size and that I was. I knew so many people. I was in lots of different groups, and I was just. I was kind of happy.
35:24
So maybe you would have just come back and said, yeah, thumbs up.
35:50
Yeah, thumbs up, thumbs up. Yeah, keep, keep, keep doing that.
35:53
Nailed it.
35:55
Nailed it. It was a good experience. And so I was happy with that. When I got into USC for film school, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna drive my rusted out car to Los Angeles. And I. The luxury. And Craig, you and I have talked about this. The luxury I had moving out here was that, like, my family was generally supportive and I had sort of a. If everything went haywire, I could have just like, moved home. Like, I had that. I had that support underneath me. And so it wasn't like they were
35:56
like, yeah, me too.
36:24
Yeah, that's a difference. Yeah. And so I felt really lucky that, you know, I had a Family that didn't understand what I wanted to do but was generally supportive.
36:25
But that's why you're healthier than I am.
36:36
Yeah, maybe.
36:37
That's nice. Were your parents, like, not excited about you?
36:39
Oh, no. They were angry and insistent that it wouldn't work. And also, they had no money. And now that did give me a lot of fear, you know? So when I got here, I was definitely motivated by fear. Fears. Fear, I think, is like, I've never done cocaine. We've talked about cocaine before on this show. I've never done cocaine. Katie's like, that's interesting.
36:41
My silence.
37:02
The two of us are like, we've never done it. And you're like. But I feel like fear is the cocaine of emotions chopping up on.
37:03
You want this? You go, okay. It's not for her. It's not for here.
37:10
It's not for her. Yeah, no. Cool, cool, cool. It powers you. But I think then. Then there's this terrible, you know, downside. There's the come down.
37:12
Oh, it's a very empty drug. I. I just feel like anytime I've done it in my 20s. Yeah, it just. I ended up making lunch plans with someone I didn't want to eat lunch with. You know what I mean? It's a real waste of time.
37:20
Fear does not do that for me. But it definitely, like. Like, fear will get me up in the morning and will power me through a day, but when I get home, I'm like, oh, no. It's just. It does. It's an effective motivator, but it comes with a cost.
37:31
Oh, that does.
37:44
So, Craig, I think, you know that you have one tattoo. I have one tattoo. My tattoo is Timmy Manihill Nemetis Quidum, which is let me fear nothing, not even fear, which is. I got the first year while I was here in Los Angeles, like friends, we were out just walking, and they all had tattoos. Like, I want a tattoo. It's always in Venice Beach. I kind of tattoo nice.
37:45
And hepatitis C. Absolutely.
38:03
But it was a helpful thing for me to remember because unlike you, where a fear was motivating to go do a thing, fear was always sort of thing like, stay back, stay. Don't reach for it.
38:06
Healthier.
38:15
And so often the things I regret most were the things I didn't do because I was afraid. And it's like, oh, the stakes were always much lower than I sort of allowed myself to believe.
38:16
I think my biggest motivator was never wanting to feel stuck. You know, I feel like I love my parents very Much. But they were always, you know, they divorced when I was in college and it was like, when they did, it was like, okay, that seems good. You know, there's like, there's always like a little tension. Like you remember like the beginning of the Shining, that sort of like it always had that energy to them.
38:26
No, that's not good.
38:47
That energy.
38:48
Yeah.
38:49
You know, just like, okay, that must have been comfortable in your house.
38:49
Love them both. Love them both. Hopefully they don't listen to script nuts. And so it just really just always wanting to not feel stuck and having opportunity, that was the biggest drive for me.
38:52
Right. I mean, that's empowering, I think.
39:03
Yeah.
39:05
That's a positive thing to reach for.
39:06
Yeah.
39:07
We've all arrived in Los Angeles and things we learn early on in Los Angeles or maybe could have learned earlier if we could tell ourselves. My nominee for this is the soft pass and understanding where like someone is passing and they just don't want to say that they're passing someone. It's a no. But they're not actually saying no, they're just saying maybe. Or like, that sounds great. Let me get back to you about that. And recognizing when like, oh, they actually are saying no. It's just that you're not hearing it as the no. And so there were so many times where I thought like, oh, this is still a possibility, like this project. They're still considering it. And so it's like, no, they did pass. They just didn't actually close the loop. And I just wasted so much time thinking that a thing was alive when it wasn't.
39:08
When it wasn't alive.
39:48
Yeah. And the lesson I sort of took from that is, it's okay, first off, it's okay for things just like to not happen. And it's often worth it to make the phone call or make the. Or the email to say like, hey, sorry, this didn't click, but I really enjoyed meeting you. Basically like to close the loop for
39:49
them so that let them off the hook.
40:07
Let them off the hook. Yeah.
40:08
Yeah.
40:09
And rather than being resentful, just recognize like, oh, that's just how it goes. Things will just sometimes not happen. And that's okay.
40:10
That's good advice.
40:16
Things you'd advise your earlier self those first years in this business.
40:17
Okay. I came to LA for Mad tv. I don't know what I would have. I probably should have recognized earlier. I'm not a performer. That would have helped something. I put up a one woman murder mystery that probably didn't need to.
40:22
I want to see this so badly. I'm going to search the Internet to find it.
40:35
I think, well, no, thank God you won't find it. But I think what was also funny about it to the audience is like it's a show written for someone that could do all these different characters and voices. I cannot alter my voice from this right now.
40:39
You know, it's amazing. That's awesome.
40:51
It's like the one woman show where everyone sounds the same.
40:55
That's where I'm trying my best. I am just sweating and trying and throwing on different whips and hats.
40:58
Hello, Dr. Trumpley. And it's just the same voice.
41:03
Yes, exactly.
41:05
Yes. Well, I don't know. No one knows who's talking at any given point, so.
41:06
Good.
41:11
Right, so that's the first thing I thought of.
41:11
So give yourself permission to not be a performer and that there's other things there.
41:14
Yes, exactly.
41:18
Yeah, I like that.
41:19
And then. Cause even MADtv, the first two, for two years in a row, they brought me out to test to be a performer and I think they liked the things I was writing for the characters in the auditions. But they're like, oh, but she's not working somehow.
41:20
Right.
41:31
And so finally I submitted a writing packet to them and then you're like,
41:32
stay behind the camera.
41:35
Have a look at that.
41:36
Yeah, yeah. And I was like great, great.
41:36
Yeah.
41:38
Craig. Things you would talk to that early Craig about.
41:38
I think I would assure myself that my suspicion that everyone was stupid was correct.
41:41
I am.
41:48
That everybody in Hollywood is convincing you that they are brilliant, they know more than you do and their power is derived from their wisdom and their connections and that you are the outsider, you are the thing that is barely hanging on and that it could flick you away, ha ha ha. At a moment's notice to make you feel powerless. My suspicion was always that they just, a lot of them just seem stupid and fake and they were.
41:49
Everyone is faking it.
42:18
There's so many frauds. Our business is full of frauds and you can see over time the frauds disappear and the real ones stay. Well, some don't but they eventually kind of do. Like there are some people that are problematic and stay there. But what they do is something that I don't really interface with necessarily. But there's just so many blowhards and
42:19
dude, that is the hardest thing for me because I know how I should sound at this job and it's not how I talk normally. You know, I've always like, I've never been a lean in type of person, like a fake it till you make it. I can't if I don't know what I'm saying. Like, you can see it on my face, you know, so that's why I feel like it's. I'm jumping ahead a decade. But the advice I give myself later is just making sure you really know the story you want to tell before you start talking. Yes. I have to know that or otherwise I can't fake it.
42:47
Yeah. We've talked on the show before, but once things started clicking, they clicked really fast for me. And I was, you know, go happened. And I was doing a TV show and I was doing Charlie's Angels and doing Big Fish all at the same time. And the TV show was just a spectacular disaster, a slow motion car crash and sort of had a nervous breakdown during it. And it ended up being very helpful that I had it because I could. That I could just have like a crashing failure. And it was actually okay. Like, that failure is so healthy.
43:21
Why is he so healthy?
43:51
I wasn't healthy at the moment, but I really was just like, you know, disassociated.
43:52
You did have a nervous breakdown.
43:56
I did have a nervous breakdown, but I sort of got through it. And honestly, writing sort of got me through it. Like, I was fired off that show and then still had to write Big Fish. And I was like, I will enter this southern family and figure out the drama from inside there. It was just so nice, like, oh, I can go back and do the thing I'm actually good at doing.
43:57
Yeah.
44:12
Because so often, like, you guys are so, you know, busy doing your TV shows and managing these giant productions, but you're also like, really good writers and you can sort of always just like, just go write a script, which is a nice thing too. A good reminder to me is that, like, oh, that core skill set you have in terms of actually being able to write things that can get you through.
44:12
The biggest lesson I feel like I've been learning for the past, like 15 years is not thinking about it, like, what should I be doing? Or, you know, like, when it's writing or through production, like, when you're making choices, like, if I think like, oh, what is it supposed to be? Instead of just wait, what do you want? You know?
44:30
Right.
44:50
It's weirdly been the hardest one for me to just shake off over the years.
44:51
I'm with you on that. It's the other side of the. Okay, there's the Katie Depold who writes that document and caretakes the people. Sometimes caretaking becomes. And also your Priorities are more important than my priorities, or making you happy is more important than making me happy. And it's a tricky thing. I've talked about this with Alec Berg, who's been on our show a few times. There's that dial where you think like, okay, in one direction is hack and the other direction is pompous asshole. And so you don't want to go all the way to. I just do whatever people tell me to do. But you also don't want to go up your own butt. And I think people are sometimes innately more afraid of one side than the other. Yes, I'm more afraid of going up my own butt. So I got to be careful to not go too far towards making other people happy.
44:54
Right. That's a dial. That is everyone struggles with.
45:43
For sure, it's a dial. Yeah. Whichever one you're more afraid of, be more afraid of the other one.
45:47
Actually, I think I recognize in myself that I would love to tell an early version, but even now I still feel it is you don't have to chase things as much as you're chasing them. And so early in your career, you're always going after any opportunity and you see a thing as like, well, I should. Obviously that's a movie, so I should try to land that movie. And I think too often I would go after that thing and sometimes land that thing, and it's like. And spend a year of my life, two years of my life, working on things like, this isn't really what I wanted to do.
45:51
Dog that caught the car.
46:20
Absolutely. And so it's like you're in a relationship that you didn't even really want to be in.
46:21
Yeah.
46:25
Yeah.
46:26
Things to remember. Let's answer a listener question.
46:26
Okay.
46:29
Drew Davo writes.
46:29
Davo.
46:31
I'm a writer in London. In 2011, I developed a TV show tailored to a specific actress and pitched it to her through mutual friends. I have the emails, the treatments, all of it. It went nowhere and I forgot about it entirely. And then someone pointed out that a show which debuted on a streamer years later starring that same actress who also co created it, shares its core premise, its inciting incident, and several specific plot elements with my pitch. I'm not here for the legal question. My question is tactical.
46:32
Great.
47:02
I still haven't had anything produced. I'm actively writing and will be pitching soon. If I pursue this, does it blacklist me? In a town as small as London tv, is the game worth the candle, or do I just eat it and move on?
47:03
Did he say, is the Game worth the candle.
47:16
Yeah, I suppose that's a phrase.
47:18
Is that a British expression?
47:20
It must be.
47:21
Why would a game be worth a candle?
47:21
Is the juice worth the squeeze?
47:23
That I understand. Is the game worth the candle? Why would a candle be used? This is not at all what Davos wants.
47:24
It means the expected rewards of an endeavor do not justify the cost of a returning frame.
47:33
We got that. We just are trying to figure out why.
47:37
How did it get there? I love to turn a phrase.
47:40
Flames and candles. We've really got to get. We've got to get to the bottom of this.
47:42
I got it. So it is.
47:45
Yes.
47:47
The phrase stems from 17th century French, Le jeu ne vous pas la chandelle, referring to gambling by candlelight. So the potential winnings were smaller than the expense of the candles used. Then the game was not worth playing.
47:48
Oh.
48:01
The thing I want to highlight in Davos question here is it went nowhere and I forgot about it entirely. That's what you should do. It's forget that. Forget that that moment happened.
48:02
When he says pursue, does he mean pursue?
48:12
He's not clear whether he wants. Should he mention. Should he ever bring it up?
48:15
No, because premise. We've discussed this many times and he's saying he's not here for the legal advice. But it is connected. Yes. Premises can be similar and it's not theft and all the rest. It's a little bit like that soft pass. So maybe that was a fun idea that somebody once had, but they just didn't like whatever the execution of it was. You must move on and do something that is worthy of capturing somebody and making them want to do it with you. That's just part of. That's part of this.
48:19
Katie, did you feel bad for stealing his idea?
48:51
Yeah, look, I really felt like I had a take on it. And you thought you were a performer
48:53
until MADtv told you you were not. It was worth it.
48:59
No, I agree with Craig, but I also am furious for this person. I understand how frustrating that is.
49:02
I understand what they're feeling and at the same time, I worry that if they think about this anymore, it's gonna define me 100%. Exactly. It's like I'm the person who got screwed out over this thing. And we all know people who are like that.
49:07
Yes.
49:20
And it ruins you.
49:21
Use this fire to write something new.
49:22
There you go. Do not let this define you. It is a poison in your veins to dwell on injustice, whether perceived or in fact. If you dwell on it, then you're stuck. You can acknowledge it, you can be aware of it, you can look out for it, you can rue it, but you can't obsess over it.
49:24
Something I read in a book, could have been a blog post recently was talking about. But like, you're stuck in a line and it's really annoying and the person just says thank you. And you say thank you to acknowledge that you're in this thing. And just like somehow just like saying thank you to it, it's just like, okay, I've acknowledged it, whatever, and I'm moving on. There's nothing I can do about it. This is what's happening. Just acknowledging the problem is helpful and sometimes can get you out of dwelling on it.
49:46
So we've released you.
50:09
Davo. You've released. Davo has been released. Let's try another question here.
50:11
Anonymous writes, I was hired to write five seasons of a Christian docuseries for a large Christian network. These shows had a primetime slot, were fairly successful for the network, and I got paid. But these shows don't represent my voice at all. My spec feature is an erotic thriller and my three pilots all have distinctly adult themes. Not to mention that the Christian TV shows were fairly crappy and hyper specific to a religious audience. So I'm about to pursue representation and I'm wondering how to position myself. While I'm technically the credited writer for network tv, I'm hesitant to mention this past work. I'm concerned it might alienate reps or producers or even talent when they see my name attached to an obscure evangelical docuseries. So will my past credits hurt my future prospects? Or does any experience beat no experience?
50:15
I think this is a great story.
51:02
I think it's a great story too.
51:04
I think this is something that would absolutely delight people if you're like, here's a crazy thing. Look at what I wrote now. Look at what I'm writing now. How could this be the same person? Find out when you meet me. I mean, that's hooky. I like that.
51:05
It's interesting. I agree.
51:21
I think it's great. I think that is an angle on you that's gonna be helpful and useful so it doesn't have to be like the very first thing you introduce yourself with. But I think it's the second or third thing.
51:22
It's a fun fact.
51:31
Fun fact.
51:33
And I would acknowledge it. I mean, people do look you up, right? So if it's on IMDb, I would get in front of it.
51:33
Yeah.
51:39
But I also wouldn't like, put it down. Like, I wouldn't say like oh, it's crappy or. Oh, it's just for religious people. Because the thing is, look, you did a job, you took the money, you, you know, they paid you. It sounds like they treated this person well. So, you know, I would just say, like, look, it would. I prefer to be writing erotic thrillers. Yes. And if you read one, you'll see why. But, hey, I'm pretty versatile. We know that much.
51:39
Absolutely.
52:06
I mean, that's cool.
52:07
Ten years from now, we're gonna see a bunch of, like, really talented emerging filmmakers who are gonna have a bunch of verticals on their series. Like, really, like, the dumbest things. And it's like, it's fine. And people used to have, like, you know, music videos for random bands and karaoke videos. Like, people do stuff to make a living. There's no shame in that.
52:07
No, there really isn't.
52:28
But it's time for one Cool Things. My one cool thing is a video series that was somehow recommended to me by the algorithm. And God bless the algorithm, it did the right thing. It's Captain Disillusion, who is a YouTuber, so his real name is Alan Malajanian. So he has, like, 2.5 million followers. Like, a bunch of people have watched this, but I've never, never seen this before. What he talks about in his videos are filmatility camera things. Things like aspect ratio, frame rate, interlacing. What's remarkable is they're like a hundred times better than they need to be. And so they're like full production value things with lots of jokes and details. We talk about sort of like, you know, a box full of teeth. Like, it's full of those kinds of teeth. Teeth. It's full of those kinds of jokes. And I'm just so impressed because you learn so much about, like, why do we have interlacing? Like, how do we end up in these weird systems? And he can just explain it all,
52:29
and it's like electricity.
53:26
He's not trying to solve the problems, but just explain why we have these systems. We have. I think they're so good. That's smart. I can't believe I didn't know this existed until.
53:26
I love stuff like that. I'm gonna watch that.
53:35
Yeah, you'll love it. And you'll plow through the whole process
53:37
while I'm waiting for the next episode of Widow's Bay.
53:39
Yeah, very good.
53:41
Which is on Wednesdays, I believe.
53:42
Yes.
53:44
I love that it's weekly, by the way.
53:44
Yeah.
53:46
Hooray. Finally, the streamers. Figured it out.
53:47
Yeah.
53:50
Oh, Apple's Been pretty good on the weekly from the job.
53:51
Yeah.
53:52
They had
53:53
Throw it Out, Katie Dippold. When you're not basking in the success of Widow's Bay, what would you like to share with our audience?
53:55
Okay. Okay. This is going to be the most boring.
54:03
No, no, it's not possible. Not possible.
54:05
Is it teeth?
54:07
It's just teeth, I'm going to say. And you're like, oh, no, that actually is the most boring one. But it is the thing eye doctor got me into. Taking rice, putting it into a cotton sock. Not synthetic. Putting in the microwave. 20 seconds. Oh, yeah, Doing that warm compress over your eyes. She does it three or four times a day. I try to do it twice a day. My eyes were about to fall out of my head, and we're all staring at screens. Save your eyes. Do this. And here I'll say this. Meditating is very boring. But if I'm doing two things at once, I know I'm getting heat. I'm saving my eyes, and then I'm forced to relax. That way, it will.
54:10
Okay, I'm gonna do this because when I'm on a plane, I get the little hot towel. People, like, rub their hands. I put it on my eyes immediately.
54:48
I mean, I wouldn't trust that.
54:57
I don't put it in my eyes, guys. I close my eyes.
55:00
You squeeze and put the fluid in your eye.
55:03
Drink the dirty rag fluid, sucking all that moisture out, guys. I put it on my eyes. That's how I got cholera.
55:05
Yeah.
55:13
Because I love the warm feeling of my eyes. And then I'm just. It just occurred to me as you were saying this, like. Like, I could do this all the time. I don't need to wait until I'm flying.
55:14
Yes. And it also forces you that you know the whole thing. It's, like, good to be bored as a creative person. It forces you to do it. You can't do anything.
55:23
Rice. Does it have to be Arborio?
55:30
I put, like. No, I just. I've been trying different kinds of rice. Honestly, I'm not sure which is the best one. But organic rice in a cotton sock, not synthetic.
55:33
And you tie off the sock.
55:43
Tie up the sock.
55:44
And you do 20 seconds of it.
55:45
I do 20 seconds. Sometimes I'll add two more seconds. Then you squeeze the rice and make sure the heat's spread out.
55:46
It's like. It's weirdly moist. Is the thing that's surprising about.
55:52
It kind of releases because there's water
55:54
inside of the rice, but don't.
55:56
It shouldn't burn oh, God. The first time I did it, I misunderstood and I thought I was supposed to heat it for two and a half minutes.
55:57
No, no, it says 20 seconds.
56:03
Yes. And I was like, well, this is burning my eyes. And so now I feel like I'm just trying to get back to where I was before I burned it in the first place.
56:04
Anyways, so you're building up.
56:11
Yes.
56:12
So we have something bought on Amazon 15 years ago, like a tube of rice in a cotton thing that we use on our necks. And so you heat up the microwave. And that is actually like a two minute kind of situation, but it's really good.
56:13
Okay, I'm gonna do this.
56:26
Right.
56:27
You have to.
56:28
But it has to be a cotton sock, otherwise it'll melt and it'll get in your eyes.
56:28
Feel real bad.
56:33
Yeah, right. If I show up blind because of this, the lawsuit.
56:33
Incredible.
56:39
I'm gonna take everything you have now. Widow's Bay is mine. I took it.
56:39
And maybe she would like that.
56:46
Yeah.
56:48
Craig, what do you have for one cool thing?
56:48
Well, you know, even though I didn't want to be a doctor, I do love medical science, so. Osteoarthritis is the worst. There is no cure for it. It's basically the degradation of your cartilage in joints. It becomes very painful. Almost everybody will end up with some of it. But some people start getting it quite early. I have, like, a lot of people, it's very common. I have it in my left big toe. There's just no cartilage whatsoever. And if, like, I. Oh, man. Every now and then, like, I'll go, oh, and the. Well and the cure. I mean, there's like, surgery, which is kind of useless. This is kind of magical. And it's early on, but there is a project that's being funded by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services because government still is able to do a few things, you know, before they figure out that something good is happening and take it away. And they're funding a program called Nitro, which stands for I hate these things when they do these retrons. Yeah.
56:50
Retronums. Yeah.
57:47
Novel innovations for tissue regeneration in osteoarthritis. But a team at the University of Colorado, Boulder.
57:48
Very nice. Yeah.
57:55
Which has gotten a bunch of money, has got this thing down where they do an injection, and the injection is some sort of protein that triggers the body to start the regeneration process. Essentially. They think they may be able to inject osteoarthritis away. Now, it is early on. There's still an animal testing but there is a chance that the three of us may be spared that gnarly, miserable, joint pain existence that our grandparents suffered through.
57:56
That feels doable. It feels like, oh, that's science. I believe that could exist and happen. It's probably not Peptides, but it's something like that.
58:35
Do you know why I think it's gonna happen? Because you can see how much money you could make. Like, basically, when there's money there, I feel like they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out. So hopeful.
58:43
Yeah, that's great.
58:55
Hopeful.
58:56
All right, that is our show for this week. Scriptnos is produced by Drew Marquardt, edited by Matthew Chileli.
58:57
I don't think so.
59:02
Our show this week is by Eric Pearson. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to askjohnallukkotts.com that is also the place where you can send questions like the ones we answered today. You'll find transcripts@johnawlicks.com along with a sign up for our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which is lots of links to things about writing. But wherever you're hearing this podcast, click through to the show notes because we have a link in there to the scriptnotes survey and we would love for you to fill out script notes survey to tell us what you love about the show, what you'd like more of less of Les Craig.
59:02
I hope that's a click box.
59:31
It is, absolutely. It's the default. They have to pull it down to get back there. I mean, obviously one of the questions should be like, how much more often should Katie Dippold be on the show? Should it be from every 10 years to maybe every.
59:32
I mean, I would come every week.
59:46
Come on.
59:48
I would be thrilled.
59:48
I'd be delighted. The script notes book is available wherever you buy books. You could also pre order Wolf's Belly there, which is now up for pre order.
59:49
Another surprise. John August Joint just casually just made a graphic novel while nobody was.
59:56
Do you know how much you would hear about this if it were me? I can't imagine. It's unbelievable.
1:00:01
Thanks.
1:00:06
Good for you.
1:00:07
Thanks. We have T shirts and hoodies and drinkwear. You'll find those at Cotton Bureau. You'll find us on Instagram @scriptnotepodcast. The show notes with the links to all the things we talked about today are in the email you get each week as a premium subscriber. Thank you to all our premium subscribers. You are the very, very best. You make it possible for us to do this each and every week. We send out little emails ahead of time for things like three page challenges and stuff, so you get to be the first to know about that stuff. You can sign up to become a Premium Subscriber@scriptnuts.net where you get all those back episodes and bonus segments like the one we're about to record on the future of television and movies and whether they'll be around for five or 10 years. We'll see what happens, but only for our premium subscribers.
1:00:07
Can I say something real quick, please? It's going to be a little mushy. I love this podcast so much. I listen to it all the time. I can't tell you over the years how many times I've been writing something and been stuck and then put on an old episode. That just helps my brain think of something differently. Really, really. Love you guys.
1:00:47
Oh, my gosh, Katie, thank you.
1:01:03
That's what it was. Mushy. And I'm having feelings. I don't like that.
1:01:05
I like all those feelings. All right, I will take our break now. Katie, thank you so much for being on the show.
1:01:09
Thank you for having me.
1:01:15
Thanks, Katie.
1:01:16