Jaggedness Principle: Rethinking Talent & Success from Todd Rose

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Ladies and gentlemen, I present my really good friend, Yosteen, the honorable Tide Rose. You're listening to Mick Unplugged hosted by the one and only Mick Hunt. This is where Purpose meets power and stories spark transformation. Mick takes you beyond the motivation and intramene. Helping you discover your because and becoming unstoppable. I'm Rudy Rush and trust me, you're in the right place. Let's get Unplugged. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today we are diving deep with the visionary who was reshaping our understanding of human potential future leaders. He has a GED and several Hartford degrees to back it up. But the most important part of this conversation can we, is he has a new England Patriots, I already just much desire. So please join me and welcome the incite, the visionary, the incomparable. My God, Mr. Tide Rose, Tide, I even have a day. Great, it's good to see you. Good to see you too, man. There's a lot I want to get into. I'm a huge fan of the work that you do. But I'm an even bigger fan of your 40, bro. And you know, like you have a story that only five rows can tell. And I'm so proud of you, man. And you know, I always start my conversations with my death by asking them, what is there because that thing that's deeper than your why that's your true accountability and it changes over time. So if I were to say Tide Rose today, what is your because? Why do you keep doing the things that you do? Yeah, and I love this about what you do. And it's made me think deeper than why, you know, as you taught us. The, you know, it's funny. I'd like to think that it's different than it's been, but, but actually my because that still animates me. It's blossomed and grown, but it really came back to this moment in late in Utah in a hospital room when I held my son for the very first time. And, you know, I was 19. I probably don't recommend that as a, as a starting point, you know, you'd mention I have a GED. I didn't even have that yet. I had been kicked out of high school with a 0.9 GPA. I had had a string of minimum wage jobs. And here I am sitting there and they hand me my son Austin, his name. And I just realized, you know, it was one thing to mess up your own life. It's very different when you realize the responsibility you had to this, this person that didn't ask to be born, right? And, you know, the reason this became important to me is it kicked off. I didn't necessarily believe in myself then, but I knew I had to do right by my son. And so that became a really powerful because for me. And, you know, since then, and we can talk about that journey, really that, that because led to a series of other because along the way. So, you know, here I am. I had had like 10 minimum wage jobs in two years. Everybody was frustrated with me. I knew something had a change and I decided I'd get my GED. And I would try my hand at college, which is kind of funny. Since, you know, high school literally 0.9 GPA, like, I didn't even get socially promoted. Right? Like this was so bad. And, um, you know, my dad told me, Hey, look, he said, I think you're really smart, but you have to be motivated. He's like, Oh, when you're not motivated, you're just not very good, which is so true. Like if I'm passionate, I'm on fire and I'm as good as anybody. But the second I'm not, it's really hard. And so I decided, okay, I'm going to go to college and I went to Weber State. University in Ogden, Utah, as where Damon I learned went. That's our only claim to fame. And, you know, I was, I was just, I knew that what I had done before hadn't worked, trying to learn the way everybody told me people were supposed to learn. And I really recognized there was something different about me and I needed to embrace that. And, you know, I was doing okay. And there was this really defining moment for me, which unlocked another because. And it was this. So I'm sitting in a really large auditorium for a history class, which I tried to avoid that kind of set up didn't work so well for me. And I was complaining to my friend Steve about it that, you know, this was not a good set up. And he says, he goes, well, this is nothing compared to the, what I got myself into in the honors program. And I was like, I don't even know what that is. And he said, Oh, it's so bad. He said, there aren't big auditoriums. They're just like 10 people in a class. And I was like, that's interesting. And he said, there are no tests. You just write stuff. That's interesting too. And then he goes, I don't even think there are right answers. All we do is argue all the time. And I was like, this sounds amazing. Like I didn't, never in a millionaire thought that it could be that way that learning could be. And so I immediately bolted up to the honors program. It was at the top of the hill. I had its own little second floor, the library. And I went in and I said, I want to see the director of the program. And the secretary, who's one of the most important people in my life and gave me a new because her name was Marilyn Diamond. And she said, okay, let me get you in. And I sit down with the director of the honors program. And I said, I want to be in the program. And he said, that's great. Just a few questions. He said, what was your high school GPA? And it was located. I said, um, point nine. And his response was what point nine? Like I left off the most important part. And I said, oh, and he was really nice about it. He said, you know, I'm sorry. You can't be in the honors program. You know, I was so mortified. I grabbed my stuff and I just fast I could get out there and go crawl in a hole. And as I'm walking out of his office, Marilyn Diamond, her desk was right next to the door. And I'm walking past and she reached out and grabbed my arm. And she said, listen, I over heard the conversation. If you want this, don't take no for an answer. And I was like, well, you can do that. And she said, sit on that couch and don't leave until he let you in. So I did. And for a few hours and finally he called me back in and he said, you know, look, why do you want to be in the honors program? Like on paper, it makes no sense. And I started explaining that I'd learned a lot about myself in the first year. So I was there and I knew what it took for me to do well. And this all seemed to be a perfect environment. And he said, okay, I'm going to let you in on a provisional basis. And he said, you take one class and if you do well, you can take another and another flash forward. I ended up graduating as the honors student of the year three years later with a 3.97 GPA. And I just got into Harvard for my doctorate. And I shared this because it taught me something really important that became not just personal, it's still personal because, but it's driving everything I've done since, which was I was still the same kid. So the kid that had done so poorly, it taught me two things on the incredible value of fit. Right. So we tend to think I try something once I don't do well. Well, I'm not good enough at it. That's not what I'm like your strategy could be wrong. It could be the wrong environment. But getting that fit between you and your environment is so important. And things get a lot easier when you get that fit. The second thing was, you know, I had sort of thought about talent and potential as almost like this thing I do. There's something inside me. And if I work hard enough, it'll come out and it'll be fine. What it taught me and I have a dozen other stories just like it was, yeah, you got to work really hard. But there's a role for other people in your success that is so important. And again, it doesn't negate that I worked hard. I did. But Marilyn Diamond, you know, she changed my life. And here's what's really funny. Just a couple of years ago, we were state invited me back and gave me an honor. Like, hey, look, you did good. And I'm sitting there in this auditorium. I'm speaking to all these people and I found out that Marilyn Diamond was retiring. And she was there in the audience. I thought, well, what a great chance to really acknowledge the role she's played. So I told the crowd some version of the story. I just told you. And the president of the university says, Marilyn, why don't you come up and say a few words? She comes up, she's short. She adjusts the mic and she says, you know, Todd, it's good to see you. I have to admit, I don't remember this. And I thought I thought she was saying I was lying or something. And I was like, oh, it happened. She goes, no, no, I believe it happened. I just don't remember it. Well, it turns out everybody had a Marilyn Diamond story because that's kind of person she was. And it really dawned on me that when it comes to our role in other people's lives, we tend to think that it's going to be some herculean effort. Right? Like when in reality, this thing that was life changing for me was so inconsequential. She didn't even remember it. And, you know, so when we think about what what it means to develop our fullest potential, make our best contributions to society, succeed, you know, there's does involve other people. And we can be that for other people as well. And that story, hearing you say it in that, just I've heard it before, but I've never heard it one directly from you. And the detailing gave it so touching that because, you know, one of the things that I heard in that story is keep going. Right? What happens? You got to keep going. But there's a couple of things I want to unplug because you and I have so many similarities and what we talked to business leaders about. And I want to start with this one right here. I think as leaders, a lot of times we ask our team members to do too much because of what the title says. Right? Yeah. And when there's a title and I don't care how big the title is, it could be a small title. But we like to encompass a lot of responsibilities into one human. And we forget the gift or the actual skill set that was why we hired them or why we have them a part of the team in the first place. I love to get your take on that because I've heard you talk about it. But a lot of times I'm going to use salespeople as an example, right? We've got a sales person or salespeople that are killing it. But then we want them to do admin work. We ask them to get our sales and so when they struggle is like, well, what are they struggle with? And it has nothing to do with sales, right? It's all these or we have people that we don't have those roles. And I hate when people say, but everybody sells. But whatever then pay them to do that or hire them for that specific thing. When they don't do that, it's not there. We have people that are. I did research and development, but we also want them to do two or three things. And that delutes who they actually are. And a lot of time forced just people to leave. So I'm really good. Listen, you're just say amen to that. And I'll just push down a little bit like they. It's kind of remarkable, right? So first of all, you know, my professional background early when I was a professor was in the methodologies that study science at an individual level. So things that give rise to like personalized medicine, personalized learning, personalized nutrition. And when we start looking at individuals instead of groups of individuals, what we find is this really cool idea is called the jaggedness principle, which is human beings are multi-dimensional, right? Makes sense. They take body size. Size is not one dimension, right? High weight, gesture, conference, whatever. Same is true cognitively, all the stuff. And what we look at is we tend to think with body size. Well, there's a small medium, large, extra large. If it just scales up, it's not how it works. It is, it's remarkable. So everyone's jagged is that is there going to be on the high end on some things on the low end on others and in the middle on some things every single human being. And the reason this is really important is the best, if I were king for a day, the best possible thing I would tell a leader to put people in positions where they're really going to thrive and contribute is if you could. I still believe in, you know, division of labor, great and specialization. But you really got to do two things. One, where's your comparative advantage? Right? So like I'm actually better at this thing because of my jaggedness. Two, I have to care about it. If I don't care, like, as you know, like, listen, I will tell you, like, you can have all the town in the world that you don't care about the work you're doing. It's not meaningful to you. There's only so far you're going to get. But what's so funny is this idea of like job titles and job descriptions is a relic of the age of standardization, where we thought first about, like literally, like Frederick Taylor is the guy that really implemented all this in society and the night reason we're still living in his shadow today, where he really saw. He said, forget about talent. We just want people to be able to be interchangeable parts. And he really meant that, like, it was plug people in. And so in that case, the job description became everything and you just kind of wedged people in. Well, when you realize and take into account human jaggedness and the fact that everybody can be excellent at something, but no one's excellent at everything. You find you get people into that space where it's like to your to your example. They might be like the best salesperson that you have. And for whatever reason, you put more on their plate and doing things that at best, their mediocre, like, best. And at worst, it's literally draining the passion that they have. And then they end up exiting and you get into this sort of, like, treadmill of, like, higher, rehire. And it's just, it's wild. You know, my dad who just retired, he designed airbags for a living. One of the one literally has so many patents in that space to save so many people's lives. The president of the auto leave, which was the airbag company told me personally, if it worked for my dad's inventions in this razor thin margin industry, they might be out of business. Okay, awesome. Congratulations. He loves it. Like he was built to be an engineer in this space. Well, as everything's succeeding and he's like, of course, I'd like to make a little more money and be recognized. And they're like, well, the only way you can do that is you have to get on the management track. I'm like, listen, I love my dad. He would be a terrible manager, right? He just wants to get the job done. He doesn't want to deal with people like this. And it's like you structured something where the only way they can be acknowledged and rewarded for their contributions is to change what it is they're doing. Like it makes sense. Now to their credit, they made one car about my dad's name's Larry. They gave him the Larry carve out. So they let him have this path of an engineering path. And I'm like, what, why would that be specific to him? Like let people do what they are good at and passionate about and everybody's better off. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, man. Totally amazing. And another thing that I've learned directly from you and it's weird because I've been I have this concept that I called get out of your bed, right? And it's BED the beliefs, the excuses, the decisions that limit you becoming the best person. And then I got introduced to this book called collective illusion. And I sat there and said not that it validated my thoughts on beliefs, excuses, and decisions. But it gave me a deeper way to look at how we do those exact things. And so I want to give you the floor to talk about collective illusions. You know, what was the framework that said, I mean to do this book and this is the book now. And then let's get into what a lot of that because change my life. Well, so I didn't like it was not on my bingo card to be in this this letter. I just follow the things that matter to me, you know, it a couple of things that I care deeply about that might qualify as my because now. I because my own journey and look, I've been at the very bottom. I could only have been arguably at the top. And what I realized is all along the way, there were people with unbelievable potential. And you know, for some lucky breaks or whatever and you realized we had a system that not only didn't try to cultivate it, it just didn't care. Right. It was about selection rather than development of people. And in my wonky beliefs like as an academic, I care a lot about positive some systems. Right. So we treat the world like a zero sum like for me to win, you have to lose. And it's just not true. It's not true. The pie can grow not just materially, but also psychologically, right? Like my thriving can benefit you and your thriving can benefit me. Well, so I was obsessed with like, okay, how do we create the conditions for that kind of positive some society? And it was funny. It was in before the 2016 election. Like we were, we realized, oh, wow, hold on. We thought we were doing like polling to try to understand where people were. And then it was like, what just happened? Like nobody saw this coming and we realized what we said, what's going on? So we started digging in and it turned out that people just didn't feel comfortable being honest about their views. And it was shocking. Like in fact, to this day, like right now, just a couple of months ago, our last stuff we did, two thirds of Americans right now admit to self silencing that they are not telling truth. And every single demographic group in the country is outright lying on multiple issues that matter in ways that distort fundamentally. What we think those groups believe. So we were digging in and we're like, wait, why would why would people say things they don't agree with and my back as a neuroscience and psychology. And I was like, okay, so there's group thing. But like, so we thought, well, maybe that's a maybe they're just going along, but they kept seeing me agreeing to things publicly. That was like, that's weird. And so we started asking a simple question in everything we we were doing with polling back then. We said, what do you think most other people would say to this question? And that was a simple unlock because we had all the data on what people really believed. And then they kept saying, well, I don't think anyone else agrees with this. I was like, you're just spectacularly wrong. So here's, so here's what it is. Elective illusions are simply group think, but you're wrong about the group. You imagine that right? Group thinks bad enough. They don't just go along with the crowd to go along. But that's even if the crowd is right and you're just changing your mind. So so collective illusions happen where like whole groups of people end up going along with something they don't personally agree with just because they incorrectly think that most everybody else agrees with it. So therefore group think but you're wrong about the group. And you might think like this heck this would be kind of rare. Like how often this happened, but because of social media, it's just everywhere everywhere. Like our my think tank populace is most famous now for this private opinion research. Right? They can get around the distortions of social pressure. It's it's just wild. Like you name anything that matters in this country right now. It's a coin toss, whether you're even right about what most Americans believe. Yeah. And isn't it crazy when you really break that down it? What I appreciate about collective illusion is while you talk theory, there's a lot of research that backs up the things that you were actually counting a little bit right. So again, it's why I love it. I'm a research in history, not anyway. So there are a few things and I'm like, Dang it. Why did I think of that? Right. So give us a couple of examples of some of these collective illusions that we've had past recent, whatever. So I'll give you a couple of recently one that was pretty politically charged and then one that's not letting is more important. And we could we could we could spend all day talking about this is unfortunately it's just all over the place. So remember the defund the police movement. Whatever true injustices that they're addressing the idea that you're going to essentially defund the police. There was a it's peak on that. And in 2020 for 60% of Democrats publicly said that they supported defunding the police. We have private opinion data on it that showed it was never more than 9%. Okay. This is a big problem because this is the problem with collective illusions is you think they're sort of harmless. Well, I'm just going to say what I think I'm supposed to say. So I stay with my group. Well, okay, except for politicians implemented policies in places like San Francisco and Seattle and everything because they thought this is what people wanted and those were disastrous. Not just in my opinion, they've since rolled back those policies. Right. And it's like it's bad enough when you get sort of bad policies because people actually wanted them. But it's pretty tragic when it's all done under a collective illusion, right? You just thought this is what you were supposed to say. Okay, but here's a here's a more like I think a more profound one is the biggest collective illusions we've ever identified have to do with success. What a successful life is. And if you think about what's really more important than the kind of life you aspire to, right? You want to live. So we did the largest private opinion study ever on how people define a successful life. And the thing that I'm really proud of on this research and it's all available on our website. You want to see it is with success, you can't have everything. It's always a trade off, right? And so we studied, we used a methodology called conjoint, which is really cool. It forces real world trade offs and it's impossible to game. And so I can get for you what your trade off priorities are for a successful life. And we studied over 65 of these things, everything from being the richest person you know to having a family, everything in between. Here's what's crazy when we have them do the private opinion instrument for themselves. And then we say after each question, we say, well, what do you think most people would say? Right. So we're building a model of what they think everybody cares about and what they really do. So this was wild. The number one thing that people think that most other people care about for success is being famous. Like kind of kind of tracks in private. It is dead last dead last. And instead when you look at what people privately aspire to, the number one thing they actually care about is doing work has a positive influence on other people. They want to contribute like that's number one for the life they want to live. The other things that really blew my mind in the top 10 for every demographic are all character related things, their relationships. And this one blew my mind every single demographic has in their top 10 wanting to be actively involved in their community. Wow, I never, now they're not getting it. In fact, we measured achievement on these things like how you're doing, right? Turns out being involved in your community is the lowest achieved of any top 10 priority. There's no kidding. More people in our study reported being debt free than involved in their community at the level they want to be. Like so here we have this, we have this American public across demographics, including young, the youngest, you know, Gen Z in our studies. They aspire to live lives of of meaning and purpose and contribution. And they're not getting it right. And when what they think, well, what do they think society cares about? Fame, fortune, power. And so it's not, it's fine. Like I like I love what I do. And I also like the fact that that's something I did matter to you, right? It's nothing wrong with wanting other people to see you as successful. Nothing wrong at all. But you can see the slippery slope where I can either do the thing I care about and then hope people acknowledge it. Or if I think, listen, I think everyone else cares about fame. So if I chase fame, then people will think I'm successful. And this is as you know, this is a dead end because we look at our research and we also study how people think about their lives, like life satisfaction. Achieving on your own private priorities is the fastest way to having much higher life satisfaction. Like it's, it's incredible. No amount of achievement on things that other people cared about increases life satisfaction at all. So that's it. So for me, it's like there are literally we found these collective illusions on almost a hundred different issues so far. This one around success to me matters most because as we start to corrupt the choices we make about the lives we live, it's a dead end for us. It's the fastest way to like being miserable and resentful. And they say, and me, well, we don't want to do it. And so as we get back to who we really are and we try to reclaim some of that authenticity that's the crypto and I to collect evolutions as I have a lot of hope for us individually and collectively as a people. Dude, you've blown my mind. It's a book man that like you can't put down when you get into it. And that's what I love again. The research aspect of it, you know, we were talking about early education when we started this. And one of the things that I did uniquely different with my children was have the conversation about research and debates more than actually do work. A lot of parents and my kids are growing up. They were like, well, why are you doing that or why is that something that you do? And I said, well, one, I didn't have the internet when I was a kid. So it was one of those things where when somebody told me something, it was the same thing they told your parents and maybe even your grandparents, right? And so it was just kind of like there was no growth for what we were doing. Like I want my kids to be smarter, more educated than I was and I was an honest student, right? But it was when I learned was when I did when I had to, I cared more and I researched more and I could argue points better and I remember things more. And to me, that's what that, that's what collective illusions takes me back to is, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to argue. I'm going to debate, but I'm going to do it with stat versus a. Right. I love what you're bringing up here because if you think about it, how far ahead you were on this because if I were thinking about what it means to prepare kids for an age where AI, I know we're sick of talking about it everywhere, but like it will be the new operating system for society. And it is, it is an answer machine, right? It's, you know, search was searched. Now it's no, it's, it's answers. And it like we've trained generations of kids in school to be answer machines. Like there's a right answer, learn how to say it. And you see some of the most worst excesses that in higher ed right now where they don't even know how to debate. They just know that there's a right thing to say and then they're to suck. But like I would say the single most important thing to prepare a kid would be exactly what you did because it like we're going to go through some really interesting times. And the people that can actually think for themselves argue constructively are going to grow and they're going to stir up this wave. And if you're one of those answer machines, you are going to get crushed by it. It is going to be really tough. Yeah. Totally agree, man. Totally agree. Well, time, dude, I could talk, I could talk with you forever. We didn't even talk about the Patriots. Or I like it. I think it's because we're going to have, we're going to have our own podcast. Yes. This is great. It's actually dark. Patriots have the dark. Patriots have the dark. I will have bourbon because it will be dark time and I'm allowed to have bourbon when it's like listen, no kidding coming back from the Super Bowl by buddy and I. We're like, what are we going to do? This was awful. We pulled in and literally went and got a high West bourbon and just drown ourselves right after the. So much that we haven't commented. I don't know how we haven't. I haven't got. Like we're going to remedy that. We got to hang out. Absolutely. One of the things I want to do. And I do this, especially with authors that I love and books that I love and it's become like the popular part of the show. I can't wait because I get more, I get more DMs when I do this than anything in the world. If you DM me collective and if you can spell it right, you get bonus points. The first 20. I'm going to go ahead when this recording is over. I'm going to order 20 copies of the book top. And I'm going to send out that copy to the first 20 people that message me collective. As always, if you number 21, I apologize, but you can go get it yourself. Be good and tied for number 21 through 2000. Where can they get their copy? Amazon as everything, right? It's I was just told it's been a funny thing because the book came out. It's been a few years now, but it sort of now as provided answers to some of the things we've been witnessing. The way social media distorts what kids think, like some of the problems, everything from, you know, a lot of the problems in the world. And so it's it's just another spike. It got sold out, but I was just told that there's more in stock now. So that's good. All right. So 21 through 20,000. You got to go to Amazon. Collective illusions, but the first 20 that message me collective. I'm going to get you out of here on my rapid fire. Quick five questions. Ready? I'm ready. All right. What's one non-negotiable ritual that you have on a daily weekly basis? What's one non-negotiable for Todd? So this is going to sound really nerdy, but it's been really important to me. So I am obsessed with organization because I'm not a very organized person like innately. And so I am very faithful to David Allen's getting things done. And I use these organizational systems. And what I found is as you know, working on a million projects, things like that and people want your time every single morning. I spend the first 15 minutes deciding what my priorities are because if I don't, then it's last in first out. And I'll go for days and think, what have I actually accomplished? And so just making sure I have a clear set of priorities in my own head about things that matter to me. Allow me to navigate my professional world. Important. And I will say on a personal level, I've learned through some tough experiences in my own life. Do not take for granted the people that love you. And so the second thing I do is I decide I want to let somebody in my life know in a very concrete way. Why I'm grateful for them. And so I try to tee that up. And I'm not as good at that. I'll be honest. I try to do that at least a couple times a week. But that that sense of forcing myself to not just feel the gratitude, although you do have to kind of. It's it's hard sometimes, but acknowledge it. And you know, it's we just go so long taking for granted the people in our lives that matter. And we think, well, of course they know, but they don't always know. And even if they do, it's great to hear. There it is. I like it. I like it. What's I'm going to ask this one differently. If you could master one new skill, what would that be? It doesn't have to be realistic. Listen, I want to throw the football like Drake May. I'm just saying like I know it's all on the hips. You know, but I watched him on his college clip where he threw a ball almost 80 yards and hit the crossbar. Oh, I was like, how do it's unbelievable? I know that's it. That's a kind of label, but it's it's like I am so in awe of peak excellence of any kind. Yeah. And make full of charcoal, by the way, just incredible. Absolutely. Absolutely. So speaking of Patriots, we both will be guys. You can't say Tom Brady. Who is your next favorite Patriotable time? So I won't say Tom Brady now that he said he didn't have a dog in the fight for the Super Bowl. I mean, come on, man. Of course you do. So I got to be honest, and this is an easy one, but I love me some Randy Moss. It's just just watching, watching what happened, you know, and he's just incredible. And you know, there's another funny thing. I'll tell you real quick is, you know, I've gotten to be a guy I really love. Demar Hamlin plays for the Buffalo Bills. And when we signed Stefan Diggs, I was like, Oh, he's got a bad reputation. And Demar played with him in Buffalo. He said, this is not true. Like he has, he has high level of demanding excellence of himself and of other people, but he is a leader. And sure enough, he just, he really added so much to the Patriots. And it taught me, you know, it's like, yeah, just again, that don't judge a book by its cover. You know, I mean, you just someone you think they have a reputation. It's like, yeah, it turns out a lot of guys around. If you don't want to work. And so, so Diggs is really high up there for me right now. Okay. I like it. I like it. I like both of those answers. That's really cool. What is one leadership myth that you wish would disappear? I think that so often we think great leaders. It's like almost like you're this top down control target that somehow I'm the puppet master. I can move people around places rather than every time I've been around a truly great leader, they inspire and they empower. And instead of making me do something, they get me to see why I want to do the thing that they're telling me. And, you know, let's go back to Patriots. I literally think this is why, I mean, what Mike Raeble has built from a culture standpoint. And as a leader, I mean, this is a team that had four wins last year, as you know. And four and four year four wins the year before. And in one year, you have got some lucky breaks, whatever, but you are a super bowl team runner up barely. But, you know, but that point is it was culture and it was leadership. And he got those guys to buy into what he was selling. Look, as a coach, he could he could dangle playing time over their head. He could do whatever, but he inspired and he empowered and it was remarkable. And I think there's a lesson in there in terms of what real leadership's like. Totally agree. Totally agree. Last question for you Todd. As the story of Todd Rose is being written, what's one word you want to define that story? You know, I would hope it would be optimism that like life is life can be hard for everybody. We all face challenges. But if you're willing to to work hard and you're willing to learn and and and have some humility, it's pretty remarkable what we're capable of as people. And you know, I feel like, you know, so much of my life, I could have just called it been like, well, and I could have made excuses or whatever. And look, I can have a pity party with the best of them. So I'm not pretending that I don't, but but you know, I just don't see much benefit in complaining all the time. Either you can do something about it. You can't if you can't then why are you complaining and if you can then do something about it. And when we start thinking about getting back to building and contributing, I just think we got a great future ahead of us. Right now it seems a little dim, but I'm I'm all in on on us as a people. And I think that so I would hope that when people listen to me, I don't want to share faults. Let's hope, but I do believe there's a realistic optimism about our own lives and about the future of the country. Amazing, amazing. Todd, I'm honored to have shared some time with you today. We definitely need to do this again sometime in person. Because there's a lot we need to talk about. You just see you tell me, tell me when and I'm there and I will bring the bourbon. Done. Listen, listen, I mean, I'm going to take it one step further. Let's find a time to get together. Maybe we've even do another round on this in person and I'll get some papi. And we'll do some, I'll bring the papi fan week. I'm a glasses. There you go. I love it. It's a deal. So Todd, where can people find and follow you? You know what? You could just on social media. It's on all the platforms. I go by its L. Todd Rose. My parents named me Larry and never never tend to call me that. So it's tight go by my middle name or just Todd Rose. Com is easy. Amazing. I'll have links to all of that and to show those. This has been an amazing episode. So make sure you go back and read, listen to this one because Todd gave so many nuggets. Throughout this episode, it was really a master class. So Todd, viewers and listeners, remember, you'll be cause is your superpower. Go unleash it. That's another powerful conversation on Mick Unplugged. If this episode moved you and I'm sure it did, follow the show wherever you listen, share it with someone who needs that spark and leave a review. So more people can find there because I'm really rush. And until next time, stay driven, stay focused and stay Unplugged.