643. Rome’s Greatest Enemy: Carthage Destroyed (Part 4)

Who has words to capture that night's disaster, tell that slaughter? What tears could match our torments now? An ancient city is falling, a power that ruled for ages, now in ruins. Everywhere lie the motionless bodies of the dead, strewn in her streets, her homes, and the gods' shrines. All over now. Devouring fire whipped by the winds goes churning into the rooftops, flames surging over them, scorching blasts raging up the sky. Treasure hauled from burning temples, the sacramental tables, bowls of solid gold, and the holy robe seized from every quarter, the enemy piling high the plunder children and trembling mothers rounded up in a long endless line so that was the greatest of all roman poets virgil and he was writing almost two centuries after hannibal's great war against the romans the subject of this epic series and a century or so after the final defeat of one of the protagonists in this story the mediterranean city of carthage and tom in that poem the aeneid which is translated there by robert fagels virgil is taking us back isn't he to the legendary beginnings of carthage so shrouded in myth the story of its foundation by the phoenician queen dido and the colonists from phoenicia are laboring to build the new city they're raising the walls they're building the palaces and temples the harbors that the romans will later destroy and at this point this bedraggled group of refugees who've been shipwrecked off the african coast turn up and these people are trojans they are so they are as you say refugees from the sack of troy by the greeks and the man speaking the lines that you you read so powerfully um is their leader a prince called aeneas who is the son of venus the goddess of love and beauty and aeneas in that passage is describing what it had been like to live through the destruction of troy to watch its topless towers consumed by fire and he is giving this account at a great feast that has been held in his honor by dido because she has fallen in love with aeneas and we talked about this in the very first episode that we did on carthage i mean about 400 years ago actually i I think it was episode 421. And people who listen to that may remember what happens next after this feast, because Aeneas and Dido go out hunting. There's a storm. They take shelter in a cave. And while they're in the cave, the earth moves. And Dido, although not Aeneas, assumes from this point on that they are now man and wife. the problem for dido is that aeneas has this destiny that has been plotted out for him by the gods and specifically by jupiter the king of the gods and this destiny is that aeneas has to sail to italy and found a town there that in due course will result in the founding of rome and so jupiter sends mercury the messenger of the gods down to aeneas and says you know stop hanging around with this Carthaginian woman get on go and found Rome and Aeneas is very obedient to the will of the gods and so he dumped Dido and he sails away from Carthage for Italy and Dido is so distraught at being portrayed like this that she stabs herself to death with Aeneas's sword but not before she has called for her descendants to nurture an undying hatred for the descendants of Aeneas. Shore clash with shore, sea against sea, and sword against sword, this is my curse. War between all our peoples, all their children. Endless war. That's her curse, isn't it? And that's how it all begins. So she summons a demon to rise up from her bones, an avenger still unknown, to stalk the descendants of Aeneas and to hunt them down with fire and iron. And Tom, who is this demon? Well, I mean, every Roman reading the Aeneid when it came out in the age of Augustus knew exactly who was meant. It was Hannibal, Hannibal Barker, that great military genius whose career we've been describing in our previous episodes, who for almost two decades had indeed fought the Romans with fire and iron. Now Hannibal, as we heard in our last episode, ends up this hunted fugitive, this defeated fugitive, kills himself in 183 BC. But it's the measure of the shock he had given Rome and of the terror that he had inspired in Roman hearts that still, more than a century and a half after his death in the age of Augustus you know when the Roman Empire stands splendid and without a conceivable rival on the face of the planet Hannibal continues to haunt the memory of the Romans and so I think it's not hard to imagine what a bogeyman he must have seemed to Romans who had lived through his invasion of Italy and who were born in the generation or two after the great war that he had prosecuted against the romans so that means that even though carthage has been defeated and forced to accept a punitive peace deal the memory of hannibal and of carthage's assault on italy means that for the romans in the decades after victory carthage remains the supreme enemy you know this is that would i be uh going too far to say there's still a sense of unfinished business for the romans completely completely listeners may remember that that in our previous series we talked about hannibal's preparations for the invasion of italy in 218 and he has a dream and in that dream he sees a giant serpent that is following in his wake as he invades italy and this serpent quote causing massive destruction to trees and bushes a deafening thunderstorm following in its wake and a god then explains to him what this serpent is this serpent is Hannibal himself and so the dream is portending what the Romans called the vastatio italia the destruction of Italy and that is exactly what Hannibal had inflicted on Italy so monstrous casualty figures hundreds of thousands of people dead fields vineyards orchards going up in flames year after year after year and nothing like it had remotely been experienced by the romans or the peoples of italy you know for two or three generations there hadn't been anything like this and today there is considerable debate among historians about how bad the damage inflicted by hannibal on italy actually was so opinions range from completely apocalyptic to merely you know pretty devastating right but however bad it was what mattered was that the romans in the wake of hannibal's war remembered it as complete devastation so to quote simon hornblower on this i mean he's absolutely right the trauma of hannibal's lengthy presence however great or small the actual damage he wrought will not have been easily forgotten to that extent hannibal's dream may have been a true prophecy perceptions are a kind of reality i mean we you know that throughout history and the romans i mean that the damage that the carthaginians have inflicted is so deeply embedded in the roman imagination so the romans come to talk about the carthaginians they use these expressions punica fides punica fraus the idea that the carthaginians are the embodiments that almost the linguistic embodiments of cruelty and deceit and infidelity and fraud and all of these kinds of things and the carthaginians come to assume this almost kind of demonic place in the roman imagination yeah i mean i think if you if you think about how the british view the germans in the wake of the first world war and even more the second world war there is something of that the way that the romans view the carthaginians and people who've listened to this series may well feel that this is a bit rich because the romans as well have been known to display cruelty and deceit and treachery and so on but that doesn't really matter because the romans felt what they felt and this wasn't just a kind of widespread loathing of the carthaginians but something more a kind of biding fear that was ultimately irrational well irrational because the carthaginians have been completely beaten yeah you know completely smashed it is so clear that that you know the days of carthage as a great power are finished because the terms that the romans had imposed on carthage in the wake of the defeat of Hannibal, had been intended to cripple her forever. So just to remind listeners of what those terms were, a devastating indemnity, payable in installments over the course of 50 years, designed to kneecap Carthage's economy. The loss of all her overseas territories. Carthage had ruled a great empire, you know, Sicily, Spain, whatever, all gone. Once she had been the greatest naval power in the western mediterranean her fleet is now limited to 10 warships and her foreign policy is directly under the control of rome which means that she cannot go to war without roman permission so at the same time the romans have done that so they've so carthage has been kneecapped by all this but on the western flank of carthage so that's we're still in north africa we've got this character that we talked about before massinissa who is numidian and he's an old pal of scipico africanus and he has basically been set up as a counterbalance to the carthaginians hasn't he so he's a great pal of the romans he is constantly kind of biting off bits of carthage's sort of hinterland so they're kind of i don't know the olive groves of north africa and so on he's kind of nibbling away at them all the time yeah and he's there are constant kind of border disputes and whatnot and basically the numidians are they're eroding carthage's heartland year on year yeah and for massinissa i mean this is the servant turning on the master because the numidians had been a subject to carthage and so by salami slicing carthage's territory i mean he's getting his own back on you know the old imperial mistress and so the poor carthaginians they can't really do anything about this because they're not allowed to fight massinissa off and so all they can really do is send embassies to rome complaining about these encroachments by the numidians but obviously massinissa you know he's he's an ally of the roman people he can send embassies of his own and be assured of getting heard so in 171 for instance carthaginians have gone to rome to complain masinissa sends his own son and this son of masinissa's is he knows exactly how to play the romans so he's endlessly going on about how the carthaginians are treacherous and deceitful beware of punic deceit all this kind of stuff and so the carthaginians don't get justice and the romans ignore carthaginian complaints not just because they are pro-numidian but also to reiterate because they are genuinely fearful that carthage might make a comeback and so they feel that she has to you know her territory has to constantly be eroded but this is mad i mean there's no prospect of carthage coming back well to give people a sense of the map so we're three decades on after the defeat of hannibal and the romans power is is spreading across the mediterranean so to give the example of spain we talked a lot about spain spain and its mineral wealth have been so important to carthaginian power but the romans have basically formalized their control of the coastal bits of spain they've conquered from carthage they've organized them into provinces they're pushing inland in north africa so we've obviously talked about numidia numidia is a basically a roman client state i mean in many ways carthage is a roman client state as well because it's subject to all the demands of the peace treaty we talked last time about greece you know we're getting into the kind of remnants of alexander the great's empire now so in greece the romans have been launching these devastating strikes they've humbled the heirs of alexander the macedonian kings we talked about that last time the legions have defeated the macedonian phalanx and although the romans are not ruling macedonia or greece directly roman primacy roman control is basically acknowledged, isn't it, throughout Greece? Yeah. And I think the Romans feel that if their strategic demands require the Greeks to knuckle down and kind of surrender chunks of territory or autonomy or whatever, then they have to do it. And there's perhaps slight element of Donald Trump's attitude to Greenland about all this. And increasingly, the more that Greece and the Balkans kind of have to do what the Romans say, the Romans decide, well, there's no point in allowing the Macedonians to have any autonomy at all. I mean, we might as well snuff that out. So in June 168, the legions once again meet with a Macedonian phalanx, and it's fought in a great battle on the Macedonian coast, a place called Pydna. and the guy in command of the roman legions at this battle is called aemilius paulus and if that sounds familiar then it's because he is the son of the aemilius paulus who had died at cannae hannibal's great victory and aemilius paulus epidna he confessed that the advance of the macedonian phalanx was such a terrifying sight that he had briefly dreaded that he might suffer a defeat similar to that suffered by his father but in the event he wins this spectacular utterly crushing victory so the legionaries you know they much more flexible much more mobile and they're able to infiltrate the phalanx through gaps that open up in its ranks and then it's just a massacre the people in the phalanx have these huge long spears so they're helpless against the gladius the stabbing sword that the romans are using and the whole battlefield just becomes this great sea of blood and viscera all their guts are kind of you know the macedonian guts are spilling out the macedonian king is captured he's deposed and ends up being led through the streets of rome in paulus's triumph and macedon itself the monarchy is abolished and it is divided up into these kind of four petty cantons under dodgy little republics and this is obviously a recipe for instability but that for the romans is precisely the point you know they're not there to administer direct rule but what they do want is macedon left both submissive and impotent and that is what you know these reforms do and then they uh the same thing goes for other parts of the southern bulgans doesn't it so epirus epirus is sacked that's in the west that's towards sort of northern northwestern greece albania paulus takes more than 100 000 slaves there and then in Greece itself they basically take a thousand sort of big wigs hostage from various cities they take them all back to Italy and these guys have been seen as too pro-Macedonian too independent minded and Tom you've got a nice analogy here which I share your analogy with us yeah well to pursue the Donald Trump analogy it's as though he were to invade Europe and and take back as hostages you know a raft of eurocrats from brussels regulators of american social media companies and obviously the director general of the bbc and they would all be taken back to washington and kept as hostages are there any people from the current government you'd like to see taken as hostages by delta force back to washington surely there must be no comment so all these greek hostages are taken back and among them is a greek from arcadia whose name we have been mentioning quite a lot throughout this series and that is polybius who will become the great historian of rome's rise to dominance in the mediterranean and the theme of polybius's history he kind of he sets it out it's how the affairs of italy and of africa came to be interwoven with those of asia and of greece and all things point in concert to a single end and that single end is the establishment of a Roman imperium, a Roman empire over the Mediterranean. And Polybius would end up spending 17 years as a detainee in Rome. And so this is how he came by his incredible familiarity with Roman politics, Roman constitutional arrangements, Roman affairs, and he's able to interview veterans of the war against Hannibal, people who had taken leading roles in that war. but in the long run the most useful contact that polybius makes in rome isn't a kind of veteran of the war against hannibal but this guy's still in his teens he's very precocious very brilliant and has an absolutely kind of glittering pedigree because this man is the son of the aemilius paulus who had won at pidna so he's therefore the grandson of the aemilius paulus who had died at cannae he is also the adoptive grandson of scipio africanus the man who had defeated hannibal and in rome adoption is taken very seriously so that means that he is basically seen by the romans as the grandson of scipio africanus because he is the son of aemilius palace he's called aemilianus so scipio aemilianus and you know he is a completely worthy grandson of the great conqueror of Hannibal. When he was only 17, he had fought with his father at Pidna, covered himself in glory. He'd then gone to Spain. He had won a military crown, so basically the equivalent of a Victoria Cross, by being the first over the wall of an enemy city. At the same time, like Scipio Africanus, he is a great enthusiast for Greek culture, a great scholar, and actually this is how he'd come into contact with polybius through the loan of some books and general literary chat so uh scipio amelianus and polybius it's like you and tabby will be doing on your forthcoming podcast who's tabby in that analogy i'm scipio amelianus right well scipio amelianus is much younger so it's probably tabby yeah but it's about charisma isn't it you are this greek hostage no absolutely not right let's get back to carthage so scipio emilianus the the dominic sandbrook of roman history the tabby cyret of the rest is history what does he make of carthage because he's the adoptive grandson of the bloke who basically defeated it so does he feel that he has unfinished business with carthage does he want to do the same actually it seems not And I think that Scipio Africanus, because he was the guy who had forced terms on the Carthaginians and got them to accept these terms, he then felt a certain kind of responsibility towards Carthage because it's a bit like a patron with a client. That is a relationship that is very important to the Roman aristocracy. And I think that Scipio Africanus, you know, he took this seriously. So, for instance, for as long as Hannibal was in Carthage, Scipio Africanus back in Rome had had Hannibal's back. And I think all the kind of the various members of Scipio's dynasty, they share in this obligation. So we can see this from Polybius, who is obviously very influenced by what the Scipio dynasty think. So he's always describing how the Carthaginians are going to Rome to complain about Masinissa slicing off bits of their territory. and polybius you know i mean he emphasizes that these complaints are just and presumably in saying that he is picking up on the opinion of his scipionic patrons but i think it's fair to say that this in rome is a minority position and there is one person in particular who views any kind of attempt to water down the harshness with which carthage is treated as essentially a form of treason and this is the old enemy of scipio africanus so again we met in the last episode marcus porcius cato yeah who by this point he's just turned 80 but he is as flinty and as hardcore as ever so that kind of you know that ginger hair that he had has gone he's now terrifyingly bald and got lots of crow feet and jowls he's a terrifying man i hate him i find cato such an unpleasant person well i think there are good reasons for hating him as we will see as this episode progresses so cato was sent he goes to carthage i mean of all people to go he goes to carthage and 152 doesn't he to investigate yet another spat between the carthaginians and the numidians massinissa massinissa by this point is also very old it should just be said and when cato gets to carthage he is horrified by what he sees because basically he had assumed that the carthaginians would be living like dogs in the gutter their city in ruins but actually the carthaginians fair play to them they've dragged themselves back upright and the city is actually doing quite well again and cato doesn't like this at all they don't have an empire to run they don't have wars to fight and so the carthaginians have been able to focus all their their energies on getting rich so again I mean to pursue another analogy it's a bit like West Germany after the Second World War right they're not allowed to have an army or anything so they can just focus on kind of inventing televisions and stuff that old Carthage bond parallel so the Carthage unions are actually doing very well and despite the attempts of the Romans to kneecap its economy the economy is booming they have this hinterland the Numidians may be snipping bits off but Carthage still controls most of it it's very fertile very rich Carthage has massive grain silos it's essentially become the breadbasket of the western Mediterranean which is a role that it will play throughout the history subsequent history of the Roman Empire they have upgraded their harbors and they have this inner dockyard which has berths for 170 ships and Cato is obviously very suspicious of this why do they need berths for 170 ships and he also notices storehouses in which there are piled great mounds of timber and so he's thinking you know is this timber for the construction of merchant shipping or are the carthaginians planning to reactivate a war fleet and cato being cato he obviously assumes the worst and he returns to rome convinced that the carthaginians are preparing for vengeance. And he stands before the Senate and he shakes out the folds of his toga. And from his toga, there drops a fig. Cato bends down, he holds it up and he invites his fellow senators to admire it. It's very plump. It's very beautiful. It's clearly still very fresh. and cato then reveals that this fig had come from carthage as he points out a mere three days sail from rome and his message is twofold firstly carthage is back as a great power yeah but secondly suppose a third punic war were to be launched a war of annihilation against carthage then all those lands in north africa currently ruled by carthage would become rome's and so from that point onwards whenever cato stands up in the senate and he gives a speech he ends every speech the same way doesn't he he makes the same urgent sort of um resounding pronouncement what is more i mean it must be extremely boring for his listeners that he says the same thing every time anyway he says what is more i think that carthage must be destroyed i mean dominic you say it must be boring for his listeners i don't think so at all his speeches are not necessarily about carthage yeah but he always makes this comment and so you're listening to it and you're kind of waiting for it how's he going to get carthage in again he'll just mention it willy-nilly but it is a kind of drumbeat isn't it and if there's one thing the romans love it's a drumbeat of war so i think he is essentially kind of you know provoking a war fever and this kind of statement that he's making at the end of every speech what is more i think that carthage must be destroyed abbreviated it's become one of the most notorious of all latin aphorisms carthago delenda est carthage must be destroyed so the scene is set for the final confrontation and the annihilation of Carthage come back after the break for this very sad story welcome back to the rest is history the year is 152 BC and Cato this crabby miserable old man of Roman politics who everybody admires or at least a lot of people admire for his sort of republican austerity and his ostentatious performative puritanical morality he is now calling for the total destruction of carthage tom you've got the word genocide in the notes presumably he's not calling for the extermination of every last carthaginian it's the city rather than the people or have i got that wrong i think if you're saying destroy a city you are effectively saying destroy a people to destroy the mother city of a people effectively is to destroy a people so i i think it's i mean it's anachronistic but i think there is that element in it and i think that people should be aware of what is being planned the scale of what is being planned i mean it is horrific and some of the romans think it's horrific right absolutely there are senators in rome who who oppose cato and of course many of these belong to the dynasty of Scipio Africanus and one of them a guy called Scipio Nassica he's coined his own catchphrase to counter Cato's so his is Cathargo Servander est Carthage must be preserved now listeners may be wondering what's his motivation in in coming up with this this catchphrase is it because he has a sense of humanity a concern for human rights is it from you know the depths of his kindness It is not. A concern with being kind does not really seem to have been a factor. Those who are arguing against a war of annihilation against Carthage, their motivations, we're told by a Greek historian writing a century later, fundamentally is that Rome needs a worthy enemy. because having Carthage as this great bogey on their doorstep keeps them honest it keeps them on their toes and the worry is that if you destroy Carthage then the Romans may become decadent and self-indulgent and may end up kind of turning on themselves if they don't have to guard against an outside enemy all of which of course in a sense does happen and so it's more than possible that that greek historian is writing with the benefit of hindsight i mean you know not necessarily but possible and i do think it's clear that at the time the chief source of anxiety for romans in the senate listening to cato push for this war of annihilation is actually that they're worried about breaking the treaty that they'd signed with Carthage because this will then offend the gods and bring down divine anger on the head of their city because the Romans they saw themselves as being the most devout of peoples and certainly they were kind of very legalistic So even when they are attacking Macedonian kings or taking Greek bigwigs hostage they always needed to feel that they were legally justified in what they were doing They're not, as they see it, doing anything that is unmerited or unprovoked. They always have to feel that the gods are on their side. and so this is what large numbers in the senate feel they need with regard to carthage they can't attack carthage without a casus belli and fortunately for them they have one on hand because this is masinissa right so this bloke has been constantly having his border skirmishes with the carthaginians and attacking their farmland and and snatching their you know their olive groves or whatever but if you're cato or one of the war hawks in rome isn't this the perfect opportunity he's like the equivalent of the people in donetsk and luhansk in eastern ukraine who vladimir putin used as a pretext basically for his war in ukraine yes and so masinissa by now in his late 80s is as acquisitive as ever and so his men continue to launch attacks on farms and estates in carthage's rural hinterland with the aim of appropriating them and in Carthage there is now total despair that Rome will ever reign Massinissa in and this despair brings new leaders to power who are much more hawkish than the previous generation and these are men who are saying well look we need a more assertive foreign policy we you know we cannot go on like this so in 151 ignoring the prescriptions of the treaty that they had signed with rome back in 201 the carthaginians go to war with masinissa they do not have the permission of the romans to do this and the result for the carthaginians unfortunately is disaster so masinissa he's he's now basically 90 but he's still in the saddle he fights the carthaginian army to a standstill near a town called oroscopa and he isolates them on a hill they don't have any water so they have no option but to surrender and submit to humiliating terms which include again a kind of massive indemnity which is bad enough but the real disaster is the open goal obviously that the carthaginians have now given to the war party in rome because hawks there can now argue that carthage is in breach of her treaty obligations and that therefore if the romans attack carthage the gods will be backing them so that's everything they need so now the romans have their opportunity to launch their strike and what is more there are financial motives aren't there because in 151 the carthaginians have paid off the very last installment basically of their reparations their their war indemnity so there's going to be no more money coming to rome from carthage if the romans want the carthaginian wealth they have to go and seize it so it's they've both got the kind of um the diplomatic opportunity because this business with masinissa but also now there is a very big financial incentive for greedy people in rome to urge a war with carthage it's like these people who say uh well it's like i don't know saddam hussein is a bad man and there's a lot of oil in iraq you know let's go win yeah exactly and so in 150 the romans begin to mobilize for an invasion of africa and back in carthage understandably the news of this throws the entire city into panic and so they desperately try to appease the romans and they do this first of all by condemning the general who'd been defeated at oroscopa to death and it will not surprise regular listeners to this series to learn that the name of this general is of course Hasdrubal yet another Hasdrubal and then the Carthaginians send an embassy to Rome basically to beg for mercy and when they arrive there they're appalled to discover that this Roman task force has already left and is in Sicily so just across the sea from Carthage and they also find Cato on absolutely top form so he gives a kind of zinger of a speech what people can't be trusted to keep their treaties the Carthaginians what people are inveterate warmongers notorious for their cruelty the carthaginians what people left italy a smoldering wasteland the carthaginians so still that harping on all the destruction that hannibal had brought to italy and when the carthaginian envoys you know they beg to know how can we make amends i mean what can we do they receive this very menacingly delphic response by satisfying the roman people but the senate does not specify how this satisfaction can be obtained so let's take us to the next year 12 months on uh the romans have landed in north africa they have established their uh base camp 30 miles northwest of carthage the carthaginians sent envoys to try negotiate with the romans and what happens next well they they arrive at the roman camp and as they approach there's a this kind of great deafening blast of trumpets and then they enter the camp and they are led past the massed ranks of the legions who are all drawn up and who are totally silent i mean it must have been terrifying ahead of them are the two consuls sat down on a podium and the Carthaginian envoys are brought before the consuls and they start stammering trying to make their excuses but all these excuses are dismissed and then one of the consuls Lucius Marcius sent Serenus he informs the envoys that there will be no more negotiations until Carthage has handed over all the weapons in the city all the armor all the war machines and so the envoys go back to Carthage and shortly afterwards great wagon loads of weapons and armour kind of rumbling up to the Roman camp and also in their train over 2,000 catapults so these are all handed over to the Romans and then the envoys come back and they stand in front of the consuls again and now at last the terms are delivered and I will quote them bear bravely the remaining commands of the Roman senate the envoys are told you must evacuate your city and surrender it to us you will be allowed to settle where you please within the limits of your own territory provided that it is at least 10 miles from the sea as for us we are resolved to level carthage to the ground i just mean the carthaginian envoys listening to that i mean terrifying and of course i mean what can they do there's no way that the carthaginians can possibly accept this you would think i mean just to emphasize for people talked about how how people are identified with their mother city and in a sense to lose your mother city is to lose your identity that city it's not just about the history it's also about the temples the gods whatever you know you you lose everything and of course i mean you know on the economic sense if you no longer have a port you no longer have really have a way of kind of making a living so as you say i mean it would seem impossible for the carthaginians to accept these terms and so it proves because when the ambassadors from the roman camp um returned to carthage the people of the city refused to accept it even though they know that in effect by doing so they are signing their own death warrant and anyone who speaks up saying actually i think we should accept these terms i mean you know we we've got no chance of of keeping the romans at bay they are lynched they're stoned whatever um and so there is a mass effort to try and and steal carthage for the the horrors are to come because of course they've handed over their catapults their weapons their armor all of that so um what measures do they take all the slaves in the city are freed uh to the degree that the carthaginians still have arms arms are given to these slaves um people rush out to quarries outside the city and haul in stones because they're going to try and make more catapults we're told all the shrines the temples and every other public space was turned into workshops where men and women worked day and night without pause taking turns to eat according to a fixed schedule so basically you know equivalence of munitions factories popping up across the city in in their temples and in these workshops of course people are busy making swords spears shields anything made of metal in the city is being melted down and women donate their hair so that it can be used as rope for the catapults kind of twine it hasdrubal their general who'd lost um uh the battle oroscopa uh and is still on death row he's reprieved and he's given back his old command and he leads out a makeshift army and prepares for a guerrilla war against the romans and it is war for the third time rome and carthage are locked in what really is this time a death struggle it's not a death struggle for rome but it absolutely is for carthage so it's the kind of war it's a bit like uh i don't know when the um nazis invaded poland in 1939 and you know they had the germans had such a preponderance of forces but um allied sympathizers with poland sort of said oh you know they will have all the pluck you know they've got such spirit they're fighting for their homeland you know the people will rise and and they will see off the invaders all of this kind of thing and actually that turned out to be complete wishful thinking because the the balance of forces was such that the attacker could not but win and in this case well actually it's not an immediate walkover is it by any means so the carthaginians do actually manage to hold out for much longer than the poles do against the nazis as it turns out for several years and they're able to do this because even though the carthaginians have had to you know have been tricked into handing over so much of their weaponry. The city is still pretty well prepared for a siege. So it has these kind of great triple walls. And these walls in turn are buttressed with ditches and banks. And I mentioned the grain silos. So they have a lot of food inside the city. And they've also built huge cisterns for collecting rainwater. So again, water shouldn't be a problem. And meanwhile, the Romans, as they advance up to the city, they camp beside a stagnant lake. and it's summer and so predictably they all start you know catching various horrible diseases and actually hasdrubal who you know he proved an absolute dud in open combat when it comes to guerrilla warfare he's actually pretty good he's very successful at attacking roman supply lines masterminding sallies and so all the all that year 149 the siege carries on 148 roman setbacks continue they are going around trying to mop up carthaginian strongholds beyond carthage but these two are able to hold out and again sallies are launched out from the walls and they burn roman siege engines and so on and then in 148 masinissa you know the old war horse the great the man who had once been a carthaginian ally and then become their great enemy he dies at the fabulous age of 91 and that might have offered hope to the the carthaginians perhaps you know that this kind of inveterate enemy of theirs has gone and then there comes news from the balkans that a pretender to the macedonian throne has emerged so people remember that the kingdom of macedon had been divided up into these four cantons a pretender has emerged and he wants to reunite these cantons and make himself king and he defeats a roman army and sends messages to the carthaginians saying will you enter into an alliance and of course the carthaginians say yes so suddenly they do have an ally now the romans you know they're not despondent they're still fully expecting to win but i think there's a certain sense of alarm developing and so they start to look around for a savior someone qualified to step into the breach and prove himself a hero and there is of course really only the one candidate so the obvious person i guess the adoptive grandson of scipio africanus is the person we've already talked about scipio emilianus and he it's not just that he has got the right bloodline or the right heredity he has experience doesn't he he has already fought the carthaginians he has i mean he's a very very good soldier so he'd been an observer at oriscopa where masinissa had defeated the carthaginians and so he had seen hasdrubal the carthaginian commander-in-chief up close you know he knew what made him tick and then for the past two years he'd been serving before the walls of carthage itself where he was basically the only senior officer to have emerged with any credit at all. I mean, he'd had a very good war. The only drawback is that he's still in his 30s and people will remember that the minimum age to serve as consul is 40. That had been waived for Scipio Africanus against the opposition of Roman conservatives. But the people hadn't cared. They'd forced it through. And the same thing happens this time. The people, and I quote, declared that he was the only worthy successor of his father, Aemilius Paulus, the conqueror of Macedon, and of the Scipios. And so the Senate, recognising the force of public opinion, perhaps, you know, just a little desperate themselves, agree to waive the prohibition and say, yeah, Scipio can run for consul and he's duly elected. and the intriguing thing is that even the absolute spokesman for conservatism cato even cato gives scipio milianus the nod i mean he really is the right man for the job so now at last we come to the final chapter in the story so the siege of carthage the end of the punic wars and indeed the end of this great ancient city itself so the romans have put all their hopes in scipio emilianus and when he arrives in africa as consul in 146 tom he has the the vigor and the dynamism and the ambition that his predecessors have lacked and he more than bears out the hope that the senate had in him yes and hasdrubal who has clashed with scipio emilianus before i mean he very respectful of his reputation and so he rather than continuing with his guerrilla war he withdraws all his troops inside carthage and hunkers down there but this of course is only to play into scipio emilianus's hands because now all the carthaginian forces are trapped inside the great city and emilianus knows that if he can only invest the city completely completely surround it cut off all supplies of food then he will be able in the long run to starve the city into submission and so he orders his men to start constructing a massive mole across the entrance of the harbour which to the carthaginian seems an impossible engineering project but scipio emelianus is a very good engineer as well as a very good soldier and is able to pull it off and so this mole ends up being constructed access to the harbor is now blocked off and there is no possibility of food coming into carthage and so scipio emelianus knows that he can now sit back and wait and with each day that passes the noose will tighten and what about the carthaginians well this noose is tightening what are they doing well carthage has always been run by a senate in that sense it's always had a kind of civilian government but hasdrubal he feels that the only way that carthage survive is if he institutes a military dictatorship and so this is what he does you know he's got all the soldiers at his back there's no one to stop him and by doing that of course he is able to commandeer all the food supplies within the city and ensure that his men are well fed even while everyone else starts to starve and the corpses of those who no longer have access to food begin to litter the streets of the dying city and Hasdrubal is is anxious that this experience of starvation on the part of the vast majority of the public may result in civic unrest may lead to pressure on him to open negotiations with the Romans and he's not prepared to do that so he takes roman legionaries who've been captured in the fighting and he leads them up onto the walls of carthage and there where the romans far below can see what is being done to their comrades they're tortured to death and their bodies are dumped into the roman positions so that of course makes sure that there will be no negotiations and scipio Camilianus is waiting for the morale in the city to hit rock bottom, for people really to start dying, for disease to spread. And then when that moment comes, he strikes and he takes the Carthaginians completely by surprise. And his assault, it's not over the walls, it's through the harbours from the mole. That mole is a kind of launch pad. And so the Romans are able to, it's an amphibious attack. They go through the outer harbour into that inner harbour that the Carthaginians have just been built. And from there, there is easy access to the great marketplace in the center of the city. And once the Romans have breached the harbor defenses, they pour into this marketplace and they essentially make it the base for the sack of the city that is now going to happen. First of all, they strip this great temple that is standing there of all its gold, pile that gold up. And then they start literally disassembling the city brick by brick. so what they do there are um kind of very tight narrow streets fanning off from the marketplace and there are blocks of housing that reach up six stories and these are about the marketplace and the houses that are adjacent to the marketplace uh soldiers go in they clear um all the opposition from all the enemy from the each of the stories of these houses and then once the houses have been cleared they take planks up to the top story and they lay them out across the kind of narrow streets below and from there they can pass into the next block of houses and they do the same and the process just goes on and on and on and once the houses have been cleared and the soldiers have gone from the one block to the next they then set the houses on fire and you get masonry you get beams you get the corpses of the slain you get old men women children who might have taken shelter inside these houses they all come crashing down into the streets and we have a horrific description of what this was like once all the kind of the debris has fallen into the streets cleaners came who had been charged with making the streets passable so that the soldiers can continue up the streets and these cleaners hauled the dead and the living alike into great pits they had dug disposing of them as though they were masonry and burning timbers mere debris some of the living were thrown in headfirst so that their legs stuck out of the ground and they were left to writhe where they had been buried a long time so a kind of hideous grotesque image do you know what it reminds me of it reminds me of the siege of tenochtitlan that we talked about in the fall of the aztecs the spanish fighting house by house destroying the houses to stop the aztecs from using them as kind of refuges i mean it's very very similar isn't it's this starling grad style battle i mean it's possible that there would have been spaniards of course in the in the war who had read these very accounts i was thinking that yeah they had classical education a lot of these people yeah so they would have known about all this and and this the destruction of carthage is the archetype of the destruction of a great and famous and beautiful capital and the process of clearance goes on for six days and on the seventh day the vast mass of the carthaginians who remained alive surrendered and the only resistance now is from hasdrubal and 900 roman deserters who held out on the kind of the topmost fort the carthaginian equivalent of an acropolis but in time he too is brought to surrender and he's brought before scipio aemilianus and grovels before the feet of roman commander and his wife is who'd been with him is utterly contemptuous of this and she takes a dagger she slits the throats of their two sons and she throws the corpses of her sons into a fire that is blazing nearby and then she hurls herself into the flames as well very dido yeah i mean it's a bit sad that women tend only to appear in the series when they're killing themselves that's antiquity for you yeah so what happens to hasdrubal and what happens to the deserters so Hasribal is spared and taken back to Rome where he walks in uh Scipio Aemilianus's triumph um and then he's allowed to settle in a farm outside Rome so he survives the Roman deserts of course are put horribly to death the Carthaginians who've surrendered they are all enslaved about 50,000 of them they're led out men women children all become slaves the city is systematically stripped of all its treasures um no respect is shown the temples of the carthaginian gods they are demolished carthage had a rich and venerable literary tradition all the libraries are emptied and given to the nemidians who promptly seem to have lost them um the romans do keep one 28 volume treatise on agriculture which they have translated into latin because obviously they're thinking well we want to take over these lands right and this is the guide to how to you know how to make the fields flourish so we'll keep that but otherwise all the wealth of punic literature is gone so we have nothing we have no histories written by the carthaginians and so as so often you know in these stories whether it's the belgians in the congo or whatever yeah or indeed the you know the americans in the great plains we only have one side we only have the roman side yeah the news of carthage's fall is sent to rome and the senate then sent back instructions to scipio emilianus that what remained of the city was to be razed to the ground and that a curse was to be laid on anyone who in the future might try to settle there so carthage is to be left abandoned to weeds but here's an amazing thing they don't sow the the ruins with salt they don't everyone thinks they did that and they didn't they don't it was a metaphorical flourish in the cambridge ancient history which came out in the 1920s and it's just right spread like wildfire ever since uh but that did that did you know there's no reference to that happening in any any of the ancient sources at all but you know they might as well have sowed the fields with salt because the signal that the destruction of this very famous very ancient very beautiful city the signal sent to the world was unmistakable that the romans are no longer prepared to brook any rival any hint of disobedience and that is a message that is rammed home a few months later so people may remember that you know there's this uprising in macedon this pretender to the macedonian throne has emerged i mean he does not last long he gets crushed and there's then a kind of there's an uprising in greece and the romans deal with that very brutally as well and the suppression of that uprising culminates in the annihilation of a second famous ancient and beautiful city and that is the destruction of corinth in greece commanding the isthmus that joins the peloponnese to northern greece and i think that anyone in the mediterranean in 146 bc contemplating the destruction in the same year of carthage and of corinth are well aware that an era has dawned in which rome is so preponderant that effectively no one in the Mediterranean has any real independence left at all. And, you know, within a century, the whole of the Mediterranean will become a Roman lake. But the story of how Rome rises to that position of preponderance, what it means for people in the Mediterranean and what it means for the Romans themselves. I mean, that is a story for another day. But I just thought to end this series, we've done three series in all and we we began the very first series with a passage that derives from polybius's recollections polybius had accompanied scipio aemilianus to the siege and had witnessed it for himself so i'll just finish by reading this passage it is said that scipio aemilianus as carthage was going up in flames its annihilation almost complete gazed at the city in its death throes, and openly wept for his enemies. He stood wrapped in thought for a long time, pondering how every city, every people, every empire must, as men do, meet with their doom in the end. For such had been the fate of Troy, once a proud and flourishing city, and of the empires of Assyria, Media, and Persia, each in their own day the greatest in the world, and of Macedon, which only recently had blazed with such a brilliance. And then, either deliberately or because he could not help quoting them, Scipio spoke two lines of Homer. A day will come when sacred Troy shall perish, and Priam and his people all be slain. And when Polybius, speaking to him with the freedom he was granted as Scipio's tutor in Greek literature, asked him what he meant by these words it is said that without any attempt to veil his meaning Scipio made reference to his own country for when he pondered how all things that are mortal must fall he dreaded how Rome too would fall crikey well thank you very much Tom that's a um a salutary warning and indeed one that sets up beautifully our next series on the rest is history which will be starting on monday and that series is the tale of the fall of the incas one of the longest and largest contiguous empires in world history that came crashing down at the hands of francisco pizarro and his conquistadors so on monday members of the rest is history club will get all six episodes in that mighty series and if you want to join them if you want to plunge into the streets of cuzco and cajamaca and the jungles of the amazon and scale the peaks of the andes with the spaniards then you merely have to head to the rest is history.com to sign up and you'll get all six episodes on monday but for now tom what an amazing uh effort to cover that epic story in three mighty seasons thank you so much and um that was carthage bye-bye everybody have a aquae valley hi guys it's katty k and antony scaramucci here from the rest is politics us We have just recorded a four-part series that's all about Donald Trump becoming the global phenomenon we know him as today. You know, Katty, I knew Donald Trump since 2005. So in this series, we rewind the clock right back and dig into the people, the events and the scandals that built him. Yeah, we're going to take you from his days in military school, what he learned there, how he actually weirdly thrived there, to his father's ties to the Ku Klux Klan, his days as a business mogul in New York and how that really shaped his worldview and his way of doing business. And we're going to explore parts of the Trump story that you might never have even heard of. Not to mention, Caddy, the nefarious trickster, Roy Cohn. Where's my Roy Cohn? I heard him say that so many times. I mean, I was only there for 11 days, Caddy. Where's my Roy Cohn? Well, let me tell you something. If you want to know who Roy Cohn was, you're going to tune into this series. With all the headlines that come out of Trump World every single day, we just felt there'd never really been a more important time to try to understand the America that created Donald Trump. To listen to episode one of Becoming Trump, head over to The Rest is Politics US wherever you get your podcasts.