North Dakota Governor Kelly Armstrong (R) & Delaware Governor Matt Meyer (D)

Welcome to Ceasefire, where we look to bridge the divide in American politics. I'm Greta Brawner, in for Dasha Burns. Joining me now on either side of the desk are two guests who have agreed to keep the conversation civil, even when they disagree. North Dakota Republican Governor Kelly Armstrong and Delaware Democratic Governor Matt Meyer. Gentlemen, thank you both for being here. You're in town in Washington this week for the National Governors Association winter meeting. How do both of you view the purpose of the National Governors Association? Governor Armstrong? I think the one nice thing about having both bipartisan or both sides of the aisle here on governor's issues is it forces you to talk about. I mean, there's a lot of things that you do in politics that are partisan, but there's a lot of things you do as governor that you just want to hear good ideas from other places that, I mean, you're dealing with roads, you're dealing with schools, you're dealing with bridges, you're dealing with economic development. Those aren't partisan issues. So you get to be around a bunch of other really smart executives and you get to learn from what they're doing and see if you can relay that into your home state. So I always enjoy it. Governor? We're governors here, all 50 governors here to deliver for Democrats in our state, deliver for Republicans, deliver for independents. If we can lower taxes, provide services that are higher quality, if we can help the country to have a sane immigration policy, if we can work together for better schools, that's not partisan, that's American. And we're working together across the aisle here as governors. NGA, I think, has to be just about the most functional, bipartisan organization in the country right now, where people like Governor Armstrong and I actually were elected the same day. We went through an NGA governor's school together and learned how to be governors, quote unquote, together. Our wives are close friends. I don't agree with Governor Armstrong on everything. I imagine he agrees with me on almost everything, but not quite. We'll find out. Well, we're friends, and yeah, we both have our country and the residents of our respective state at heart, and that's what NGA's about. How did your wives become close? I think the first NGA meeting, and they got to know each other. Matt and I do share one common denominator. We both married people significantly smarter and more successful than we are, so that's helpful. But, I mean, no matter what you've done before in politics, like a disaster is not partisan. it. Learning from other governors how they handle fires, floods, tornadoes. Like I've done a lot of things in public service. I've never been the guy who had to make that call until I got elected to governor. So there are real world things that you can learn from your colleagues. You know, you had fires in Hawaii, you had floods in New Mexico. Those are both issues that could come up in either Delaware or North Dakota. So it's really great to be able to talk to people about those things. And how helpful is it when the spouses are friends? How does it help and impact your agenda? Well, at times I call the spouses club the misery loves company club. It can be being a spouse of any elected official is challenging. We both, as Governor Armstrong referenced, have not only working spouses, but spouses that work long hours. Governor Armstrong's wife is an extremely successful attorney. My wife runs the largest emergency department. She's an emergency room doctor. And so there's certainly, as you can imagine, between being both of them being a mother, having serious, crazy work schedule and responsibilities. And on top of it, expectations is for spouses. I think they find camaraderie. Where would people be surprised at how the governors come together and work in a bipartisan way? What are they not seeing that's happening here in Washington at the National Governors Association? I was just going to say, you know, I think people would be surprised even in Congress, like how much, you know, real bipartisan conversations go on. But I think the big difference with governors is there is not nearly as much of that partisan rhetoric. Right. Like, I mean, you've got a one or two vote majority in the House. You've got three vote majority in the Senate. There's a lot of issues that come in D.C. I mean, I was here that are just simply shirts and skins issues. And that's just not we don't have the same political incentive structure when you're governor. It's just easier to talk to people and ask them why that works there. If you can think it would extrapolate like East Coast. I mean, Delaware and North Dakota are not super similar. I mean, just the demographically, they're not. But that doesn't mean there's policies that he's he's trying our new things. He's trying that couldn't work in our schools or something like that. Yeah, you are a former member of Congress, Governor Armstrong. Do you feel heard by lawmakers, by Congress, and by the White House here? Yeah, I mean, I think that from my perspective, I think even under the first Trump administration, I think one of the things that we have found as somebody who, I mean, we don't always get the answer we want, but we get a response. And I can tell you as somebody who was maybe unique in Congress on like political justice and criminal justice reform stuff, It was hard for me to get a response from the Biden White House when I was here. Now, I obviously didn't serve as governor when President Biden was president. But the one thing I will say about the Trump administration is they respond to us when we reach out. Governor Meyer, is it the same for you? We have not heard much response on numerous things. We have chicken production plants that are being devastated by changes to rules around legal immigrants, primarily Haitians in Delaware. who suddenly have to leave the country and you have labor challenges at places like Purdue Chicken and other leading poultry farms. Our universities are really struggling. And we reach out to the White House. We don't get much responsiveness on numerous other funding mechanisms. Our attorney general has sued the Trump administration to the tune of nearly a billion dollars, winning time and time again because we're not getting the kind of responsiveness or bipartisanship that you'd expect out of a leader. not getting the kind of bipartisanship that I think Governor Armstrong shows in his state, and I'm showing him mine. We're going to get to immigration in a minute, but one of the main events during the National Governors Association winter meeting is the traditionally bipartisan gathering at the White House. This year was a little tense with the president originally saying no Democrats were going to be invited, then relented, but said all but two will be invited. Left out there, Colorado Democratic Governor Jared Polis and Maryland Governor Wes Moore were the ones not invited. Here's Kentucky Democratic Governor Andy Beshear on the controversy. The president has just turned it into drama, inviting and disinviting others. It no longer looks like it's going to be productive at all. At this point, I'm not going. If you're not going to invite all the Democratic governors, this chair of the DGA isn't going to be there. Governor Matt Meyer, are you going? I'm not going. I agree with Governor Beshear. It's shameful. The whole point of the dinner is for us to put our partisan rhetoric aside. Let's talk about results for the country. Let's sit down the way Governor Armstrong and I do. Let's sit down the way Kirsten, his wife, and Laura, my wife, do, and talk as Americans and work together. When you say, I like you, but I don't like you, that's not acceptable. In addition, for the president, who tweeted this week about how great Jesse Jackson was in honoring his memory. The day before that, he disinvites or refuses to invite the only black governor in the United States to his house for dinner for no apparent reason. It's truly disrespectful. I would think that no governor should go. Not Democrat, not Republican. Governor Armstrong, should you decline the invitation? Absolutely not. When we get invited to the White House, we go. I'm not a huge fan of the Christmas parties. I just would rather get home. And my wife, even under President Biden, when you're invited to the White House, you go to the White House. Everybody has that. I actually think this has a little this is a little more like Congress. I think everybody's winning because they're all talking to different audiences. I think the Kentucky governor, the Maryland governor, and you might not like the reasons, but they are in a fight right now. There's a sewage line issue. They obviously have some redistricting issues going on in Maryland at home. I think I think this reminds me a little bit more of how the partisanship worked in Congress. I think the White House is doing what they're doing, and I think the governors who are responding are talking to a different audience necessarily than President Trump is. Is it distracting, though, from your mission here as governors in Washington? I don't think so. I mean, we like to take down the temperature amongst each other, but it's still a partisan town. It's still Washington. That stuff's going to play. I mean, two of the three governors we're talking about are very much being talked about as next presidential candidates for your party in two years. And I think if I was going to run in a Democratic primary, this is a fight I'd want to pick. You both are first-time governors. Another first-time governor was just announced as the Democrat who will be giving the State of the Union response to President Trump next week. Abigail Spanberger, the Virginia governor. What do you make of the choice there? Is it a good one for your party? I think it's amazing. Governor Spanberger is off to an extraordinary start. She's got a vision for Virginia. Being governor of Virginia actually is really, really hard. You have one term. There's a one-term limit. So you've got to sprint from day one. So there's no kind of learning on the job. I think she ran an incredible campaign. She's an incredible visionary leader, and I'm excited to see what she's going to say to us Tuesday night. But to be honest, I'm probably a little more excited for that speech than any other speech that night. Would either one of you want to give the party response to the State of the Union? Without giving out too much idea, I would only do it as a pre-bottle. I served with Governor Spanberger in Congress. I find her to be incredibly talented. That's a tough job. I mean, the list of people who haven't done it well, even really talented people, is extraordinarily longer. I mean, you've got all the pomp and circumstance of the State of the Union. And no matter how you frame it the other way, you can't compete with that. But, I mean, she's a great pick. You have to write a rebuttal before you hear the speech. So it's pretty hard to do. Tough job. Yeah. You both just finished your first years as governor. As we said, Governor Armstrong, you're a former congressman. Governor Meyer, you were previously a county executive. What was it like to adjust from those roles to being governor? Well, listen, 11 years ago, I was a school teacher. I was a middle school math teacher who ran an outsider campaign to run our state's largest county. And I learned pretty quickly that I ran our state's largest sewer system. If I kept sewage out of your basement and kept your sewer fees low, you would like me. You might like Donald Trump. You might like Bernie Sanders. But if I kept the sewage out of the basement, kept your sewers for you, you liked me. And if sewage was in your basement, didn't matter whether you like Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump. you didn't like me. And a lot of that experience is very helpful coming to government. People want delivery. They want to see that they have quality police, quality schools. They want 21st century health care that's affordable and accessible to everyone. Parents want child care that they can actually afford and they want to be able to turn on and off their lights without worrying about making ends meet. Yes, please. No sewage in the basement. What's it been like for you? I can give an example. So we get sworn in December 15th. Our legislature comes in January 6th. So it is very much designed to have the legislative branch to have some advantages over a new governor, which is great. I'm a former legislator. But, you know, you do a lot of walking and talking in Congress. I was on three committees and seven subcommittees. And so we're walking down my hallway and I look at my chief is talking to me about something and I go, OK, let's do that. By the time we get to the end of the hallway, I stopped and I said, wait a second, that was a $25 million decision. Maybe we should at least get briefed on it first. So we had to slow down because you can deploy decision making. You know, when I was out here, we were fighting about whether we can get a rule passed, right? Or whether we could whip enough votes to pass a bill. Whether the Senate was ever going to take it up or not was a whole separate question. So there's a lot of, it's humbling to have that responsibility, but also you get to deploy decision making and that's really fun. One of the hottest debates out here in Washington and around the country is immigration. And according to Multistate, they did an analysis of the policy trends brought up by governors during the state of the state addresses, and they found this. Immigration was the most discussed topic in 2026, state of the state addresses, with governors highlighting sharp partisan divides and previewing ongoing debates over enforcement and federal actions. How do each of you assess the recent immigration enforcement operations across the country? Governor Meyer. Listen, as far as Delawareans are concerned, ICE has lost credibility. It's hard for ICE to operate anywhere in our state without it creating some crisis. And in fact, making Delawareans less safe simply by wearing that uniform now because of things that have happened in Minnesota and other areas across the country. It's creating a lack of safety. officers with uniforms were sent into places where they did not respect due process or basic human rights. They did not seem to have training in anti-bias and in 21st century policing, things that every police officer in Delaware gets and most police officers around the country get. So it's very hard for ICE to have any credibility. Having said that, I think there's common ground. I think if Governor Armstrong and I sit down and talk about immigration, which we have not done, I think there's a lot of common ground about having a secure border about having a sane and efficient Immigration process. I think I heard you talk of an Armstrong about making sure that Immigration policies move quickly that visas that that you know work for that the workforce needs take 18 months 24 months 36 months with today technology They should take days or even hours I think there a lot of common ground there USA Today wrote this week immigration enforcement takes center stage at state level. While Republican-led states are following the White House's lead on immigration enforcement, Democratic-led ones are aiming to rein in the feds. Would you agree with that, Governor Armstrong? Yeah, I mean, we've worked with them in North Dakota and we, our local law enforcement cooperates and we don't have any of those issues. I, you might not like the tactics, but federal immigration enforcement is a federal issue. Like even, I mean, I, 10 of my first 20 cases is a public defender in federal court or illegal re-entry cases. So you, it is, there are a lot of things I think the feds overstep on in a lot of ways as governor, but one of the ways they don't is enforcement of immigration. I mean, that is a federal issue. Now, I think when you're talking about immigration policy, I was on the immigration subcommittee my first two years here. We haven't passed any immigration law since 1986, but it's slower to get an H-2A visa now than it was 10 years ago. It's slower to get an H-1B. Those are things I think everybody could agree on, and you don't have to change a single thing of law, and you don't have to change a single thing of policy because it hasn't changed yet, but it gets significantly slower. Well, explain for the two of you, for your states, how important those visas are. We're talking about legal immigration there. Farm labor, H-2A, it's, I mean, even when I was in Congress, it was either veterans benefits or immigration cases that were our number one constituent services, right? We just need the, I mean, rural hospitals for lab techs and nurses. And I think that's what's really frustrating from our standpoint is we haven't changed the law at all, but it's gotten slower and more clumbersome, and that shouldn't happen with increasing technology. Yeah, and when the visas don't come through on time, that increases employers' costs, which ultimately increases the cost to the customer. I know that Governor Armstrong and I are both working hard in our respective states to keep costs down, make sure life is affordable. And when employers cannot get the workforce that they need, workforce that they know is readily available, ready to work, when government stands in the way, it's worse for all of us. What are the two of you doing on the state level about companies that are hiring illegal immigrants? Are you approaching this issue from that angle at all? Is it happening in your state? Oh, I think it happens in every state. I mean, I think that's part of it. I mean, I think that's part of the conversation. But, I mean, we work with law enforcement. We work through all of the different ways in which you can do that. But our biggest issue for us is our small. We have we have family farms in North Dakota. We don't have large corporate operations. We have a three month growing season. So a two week delay, which, by the way, this transcends President Trump, President Biden, President Trump, President Obama. It's it's continually, continuously gotten more bureaucratic. Well, the person doing H-2A visa paperwork at one of my family farms is also cooking breakfast, dropping the kids off at school, doing all of those other things as well. So it's also a small family operation versus big business where we run into disinvent. And Governor Meyer, we're in a partial government shutdown for the Homeland Security Department here in Washington. Is it having an impact in the states? We're not seeing much impact yet. we're just eager in Delaware, as is true in much of the country, we're eager to see the partisanship. And this is about homeland. Homeland security should not be a partisan issue. Now, there's certainly been overreach on immigration. You can see it across the country. People do not want untrained, uniformed officers coming in to yank people out of cars, to judge people based on the language they speak or the food they eat or the clothes they're wearing. And I think that the Democrats here in Washington, senators and congresspeople are rightly standing up saying that Homeland Security should not be properly funded till we address this. People are in fear across our state. You've seen the Democrats demand here, demands here in Washington, 10 different demands. Do you think that they need to compromise though on those 10? I think that 10 is a compromise. It's a compromise on immigration. Listen, there needs to be comprehensive immigration reform in 2024, as Governor Armstrong and then Congressman Armstrong knows well, they were very close to a compromise to move that forward. And until there's a change to the 1986 law to address our 2026 needs, I think it's very hard for there to be any kind of sane homeland security policy. Governor Armstrong, where do you think the red line is on those 10 demands from Democrats? I think the problem is, you know what it's not affecting? ICE. ICE was funded in the reconciliation bill last fall. I mean, and we haven't seen it yet. But when TSA employees in the middle of March stop getting paid and people start having delayed flights, people are going to be pretty frustrated. But it's not having an effect on homeland security. I've never been a fan of negotiating in D.C. on something that's actually not affected by what you're doing. We've had these fights, by the way, that have like on 702 reauthorization, FISA reauthorization. They get really clumbersome really fast when you're negotiating for something that isn't actually affected in the bill. And that's what's going on with the DHS shutdown. Well, Democrats, go ahead. Wait a second, Governor Arbor. I'm not a D.C. guy as much as you're a D.C. guy. I don't necessarily understand all the details from the negotiation in Congress. But a few weeks ago, there was a total government shutdown we were heading into. And I believe the compromise is let's set aside immigration. Let's discuss it in the context of the Homeland Security Bill and resolve it in the context of the Homeland Security Bill. So now if you come back and say, well, immigration is separate, it's constantly trying to separate out this thing. You've got to understand that in many communities across our country, there is deep-seated fear. This is, by budget, the 13th largest police force in the world that's now going into American communities. There are no guardrails on it in terms of due process. ICE officers have shown, certainly either within their training or outside their training, a willingness to pull out their gun and use lethal force against Americans who are simply protesting against the work that they're doing. My point is, as a strategy, they're fully funded. I mean, they're fully funded right now. Where you're going to see the pressure points are the Coast Guard, FEMA, things that are really important to my state, TSA, anybody who flies, anybody who's flying in and out. So I just think as a tactic, it's a terrible tactic. Do you think the Republicans correctly, strategically got through the shutdown and now it's funded? Well, the shutdown was we could talk about the shutdown, the original 80 day shutdown on on health care. That wasn't actually a part of the appropriations bills at the time. And I think I get a little frustrated when everybody thinks they won. And I think the North Dakotan citizens lose over an 80 day shutdown. And I think that happens a lot out here. I'm just saying right now, ICE is fully capable of operating significantly longer than TSA, Coast Guard or FEMA. And I think that's a tough negotiating position to put yourselves in. After the optics of Minnesota and the fatal shootings there, do you think Republicans need to compromise and meet Democrats on these 10 demands, like no longer wearing masks for these ICE agents? So I'm in a unique space in this place because I've always been skeptical of federal law enforcement. Since 2004, when I started as a criminal defense attorney, I've had so many different weird conversations with my Republican colleagues, with my Democratic colleagues. I am always capable of saying there's more transparency and more civil liberties in law enforcement. I think it's always a good idea under any circumstance. But also at the same time, I think we have to be very careful about who actually has the enforcement capability there. Because our relationship in North Dakota with ICE is significantly different than Minneapolis. Let's turn our attention to affordability, housing. Both of you have put an emphasis on this. What are you hearing from your citizens, your residents, about the cost of living in your state? Yeah, I'm hearing the rent is too damn high. That there's at some base level in Delaware. My family, I was born in Michigan. I moved to Delaware as a baby. My family went to Delaware because my parents thought it was an affordable place to raise a family. It has a reputation in the Mid-Atlantic as an affordable place to go. We're actually the only state between D.C. and New England states that's growing in population, where millionaires are moving to Delaware. It's a place people like to be. Yet housing affordability is disappearing like never before. The real problem is a shortage of housing. And it's driven ultimately by overregulation by local governments and some by state governments. so that when someone decides to invest, to renovate a house, to build a house, the regulatory requirements, the zoning hoops you have to jump through to get there. In Delaware, it's about a third of the construction costs of the house are soft costs. You're not even putting a shovel in the ground, and it's costing you a third to just get to a shovel in the ground. That's not right. We have an initiative where we're working very hard to speed up all those timelines, make sure things are done right and quickly, and I think it's an issue in which many governors and many local officials are aligned. And bipartisan, wouldn't you say, Governor? I'm starting to hear a Democrat talk about deregulation. I got invited to come talk to a Yes in My Backyard conference in Connecticut. I mean, everything he just said is so substantially similar to the stressors we're seeing in North Dakota. We have a property tax issue. We've worked on that at the state level. But being able to get permits, I mean, just removing blighted houses in small communities, building a house that costs $400,000 to build, but the comparables in a small town only get it appraised at $250,000. So we have some creative ways in which we're starting to fix those things. But I think the bigger issue, regardless of whether you're in a very urban area in the East Coast or very rural area in the central part of the country, is how do we speed this up? How do we make the code? And it is oftentimes, sometimes it's as simple as local fire code. And you can talk to your communities about how you do some of these things. Another affordable issue is health care and rural health care for the two of you. What are the biggest needs in these communities? Governor Meyer? There's a lack of personnel, which in a way is a corollary to the immigration question. But nurses, physicians, medical assistants, med techs, physicians assistants. As I referenced earlier, my wife is an emergency room physician. I hear about this every single day, the long waits in the emergency room. There's some fear based on what happened in this town in House Resolution 1 last year with tens of thousands in Delaware and millions across the country of people coming off health care rolls, either having health insurance that they barely can afford or not having health insurance. That is, the uninsured population spikes. Less and less people are going to use efficient health care. They're going to be making those emergency room wait times longer. What we're trying to do in our state, we're starting our first medical school in collaboration with the federal government through the rural health transformation. Grant, we're also doing a lot of work to take the most vulnerable populations and seeing how can we get them high quality primary care where they need it, when they need it, and also infusing our health care system with technology. I think it's embarrassing across our country. As someone who studied computer science in college, it's embarrassing that there are these extraordinary health tech innovations across our country, but so few Americans actually have access to those latest, greatest innovations. And there's a lot we can do as governors, Democrat and Republican, to make sure that every family has access to the highest quality care. Governor Armstrong, Republicans in Washington, did they handle the issue of these expiring enhanced tax subsidies for the Affordable Care Act in a responsible way? Are you hearing from your residents? So it was a subsidy on top of a subsidy, right? I mean, so I think the messaging and the overall position on it probably could have been better. It was obviously in the middle of a shutdown. But I'll tell you the other side of this. If you're a Republican, it's really easy to beat up on the federal bureaucracy and say, if you guys would just move faster and let us do what we want to do, we could do things. Well, that's what this rural health transformation is. They essentially looked at us and said, prove it. They gave it to us in September. We said we got final approval in December. We have to we have to have the money CMS. And by the way, we were working with them from our state level all through the shutdown. Like this was during the shutdown. We have to have the money out by September 1st and we have to have it actually appropriated by next year. Like that is a very, very daunting task for a state like North Dakota. So we got essentially $200 million. And we have to deploy that money into our health care ecosystem in a responsible way, in a way that we're not going to backfill federal dollars and make it come on state rolls. But as somebody who spent a lot of time out here dealing with this, that's the fastest I've ever seen the federal government move at anything. And we're really excited about it. All right. Well, more to come, governors. Thank you both. That's all we have time for. North Dakota Republican Governor Kelly Armstrong and Delaware Democratic Governor Matt Meyer. Thank you both for joining me. Thank you. Appreciate it. Let's turn now to this week's C-SPAN flashback, where we dig into the video archives to bring you a moment from political history that still resonates today. Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are remembering activist and political leader, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, following his passing this week. Jackson broke barriers throughout his career, becoming the first major African-American candidate for president under the Democratic Party, advocating for social justice and founding organizations like Operation Push and the Rainbow Coalition. President Donald Trump knew Jackson for decades. In 1998, Trump and Jackson were taking part in a forum on inclusion and economic growth when the now president spoke about Jackson's business acumen. There are things that can be done and some are being done. I don think to the same extent If you look you know I have an honor of having Jesse at 40 Wall Street We call it the Trump building at 40 This is now a 72 building right on Wall Street right opposite the New York Stock Exchange And he's a very tough negotiator when it came to rent, I want to tell you that. This man is definitely setting a new standard for paying low rent. But it's an honor. This is the toughest negotiator I've ever had. It's called mixed rent. That's right. I said, come on, Jess, you got to make, you got to give me something. He said, nothing. I said, all right, what the hell? So he's tough. President Trump posted a tribute to Jackson on Truth Social this week, writing in part, I knew him well, long before becoming president. He was a good man with lots of personality, grit and street smarts. He was very gregarious, someone who truly loved people. Services to honor Jackson are set to take place over the next week. Reverend Jesse Jackson was 84 years old. Now to the portion of our show where we focus on strategy behind the policy. To do that, let's bring in two political pros from both sides of the aisle. Erin McGuire, she's a former communications advisor for Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz and worked on the 2020 Trump-Pence presidential campaign. And Chuck Rocha, a veteran of several Democratic campaigns, including senior advisor to Bernie Sanders' 2020 presidential campaign. And as we do every week on this show, we want to remind you that you are both here as strategists, not surrogates. Let's begin with Jesse Jackson and any memories of him. Chuck Rocha, let me turn to you. What do you think Jesse Jackson should be remembered for? He was larger than life. You know, I got to know Reverend Jackson because folks may not know this, but Bernie Sanders was an early delegate for him in 84 and a big supporter, and he supported both of Bernie's campaigns. And so I got to travel some with the Reverend. And as a good old country boy that grew up in an East Texas Baptist church, the Reverend always would move me with the way that he would evangelize about lots of things. But there's a piece of what Reverend did that we don't talk about enough. And even Donald Trump has taken a page out of his playbook, which is he understood the plight of the American farmer. And he would show up and there's these great pictures of him in the eighties on a tractor. This guy from Chicago, this black guy from Chicago, talking to poor farmers, poor white farmers about all of the things that they were going through in their lives and the disparities that were happening with the American farmer. And I hope that folks remember that when they're thinking about his legacy. Aaron, what do you think he should be remembered for? And were you struck by what President Trump had to say about him back then in 1998? No, you know, President Trump rarely surprises me most times at this point. And it's clear that they had a really, a really kind relationship between the two of them that really spanned decades, I think, a lot of the time. And when you look at the totality of Jesse Jackson's work and the totality of his career, what a legacy. What a legacy to have been close personal friends with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and to be a civil rights icon and then to become a political icon in the United States and to do so through faith-based work, right? He was a reverend. He put the Bible and the Lord and the Lord's word at the center of his work. And while policy disagreements abound amongst Republicans and Democrats, a tried and true American, as Reverend Jesse Jackson was, will be hard to find again in this country. And let me also throw in another little anecdote is that most people don't know this, but he was the president of his student body and he played quarterback in college. He was a great athlete and a great man. He got a college scholarship for football. That's right. I heard that. Well, let's turn to the political news of this week, because we are still in a partial government shutdown for the Homeland Security Department. Democrats and Republicans are still negotiating over funding for the department. That would bring the partial government shutdown to an end. This week, House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries doubled down on Democrats' demands that any deal must include significant ICE reforms. Take a listen. It is our view that immigration enforcement in this country should be fair. It should be just. and it should be humane. That's not what's happening right now in the United States of America. And that's why ICE needs to be reformed in a dramatic, bold, meaningful, and transformational manner. And if that doesn't happen, the DHS funding bill will not move forward. Aaron McGuire, who blinks first? I think ultimately it's going to have to be Republicans because Republicans are the one in leadership here. And yes, they will need Democrat votes, but they have to be able to come to the negotiating table. And I don't even necessarily believe it's going to be blink. It's going to be who's going to be the first to the conversation on this. Because as the Minnesota surge has come down and those optics have been removed from people's TV, the polling on ICE will move as well. And you will see people be less reactionary and less saying we need to have big changes. We don't like what we're seeing because they're not seeing that anymore. So Democrats are the ones who are right now having to grasp to try and keep this in the headlines, because without the optics coming out of Minnesota, they're not getting the headlines. They were two to three weeks ago. And so for them, what they want, yes, they want structural changes. They want structural reforms of being very clear on that. But if there is a deal to be struck with Schumer to get this back on board and it sidelines Hakeem, he doesn't care. So I think ultimately it is up to Republicans to get this back open. We are the leaders here, even if the Democrats are the ones throwing the temper tantrum. But it sounds like you think Democrats are going to have to compromise. They're going to have to. Both sides are. And that's part of the deal of working in Washington. Nobody's going to get everything they want because there aren't 60 Republicans in the Senate. And the majority in the House is sitting at one vote right now. Those are close margins and they need Democrat votes. So there's going to have to be compromise no matter what. Do you agree? The politics of each house is very, very different. As we all know, the Republicans in the House are much different than the Republicans in the Senate. And Erin's right that Democrats want this fight because of the optics. And we've lost that now with what you've seen, the drawback a little bit in Minnesota. But Democrats want to say that they stood up and fought for something because forever, and me and Erin debate this all the time, Democrats sometimes are seen as weak, believe it or not. Not Chuck Rocha, but lots of Democrats are seen as weak. And so they want to show that they've gotten something and they'll need to get something and get this done so they can go back and say, look what we did and beat their chest a little bit. That's what Democrats need to do more of. They don't have to hold their ground, though, on those 10 points that they put out. No, if they get five of those points, they'll still be able to say, if they get anything, they can say that they've won. And there's certain things, like even some of the Republicans are with, like body cams and maybe not having to wear the mask, like whatever those things are, there has to be a company. They're never going to get all 10. And I got to tell you, the mask thing, I think, is the one that Republicans will likely hold the hardest line on. Just seeing the increase in threats over 8,000 percent increase in threats of violence against ICE agents, against law enforcement in totality. I think masks are going to be one that I do not see Republicans giving ground on. Body cams? Absolutely. I think everybody at this point seems to be pretty on board with that. So there are negotiations to win here on both sides. But I just think that I don't see the mask one being one Republicans will give on. We're months out from the midterms. But do you think this issue is still resonating by the time November comes around? I mean, you're looking at a million political days between now and the midterms and a million political different stories today alone, let alone when we're looking all the way to November, or you're looking at August when you're taking that turn into the fall here. Right now it is higher because it's in people's faces, but people will always vote on the most important things to them, economy, jobs, the cost of energy, the safety of their community. And so right now for Republicans, there's going to be a split between immigration and immigration enforcement on which is more important to the American people. Right now, they're going to say immigration enforcement is more important to them. But ultimately, again, the timeline between then and now is a political forever. Yeah. So we're turning now to the State of the Union. The president is delivering that address next week. Affordability likely to be at the center of whatever he talks about that night. Is that the thing, do you think, Chuck Bruchard, that the president needs to address? Yeah, you can listen to his chief of staff. He'll tell you that every day that he wants him talking about that every day. Now, the question will be, and I would caution the president on this, and it was the same thing that mistakes that Joe Biden and my party made, is Joe Biden for many years told everybody how great their lives were, how great the stock market was doing, and how all the things he was doing was making their lives better, and they never felt the relief themselves personally. If Donald Trump does that and people aren't feeling better, then he's going to fall into that same trap. What he wants to do, and what I've advised lots of candidates to do, is he's going to get up and say, I made all these promises, and I kept all these promises, and he's going to go down a litany of things that he has done. The question will be, is it believable when he spent most of his time in his first term fixing lots of things around the world and not here at home? And I think that will be the big juxtaposed position of the State of the Union. Aaron McGuire, you're shaking your head. So how does he address that then at the State of the Union? Well, what he's going to do, I think, to Chuck's point, is talk about what he has done, but also what the vision for it is. And that's the contrast between Republicans and Democrats. You hear about Democrats who are doing multiple counter-programming events at the same time, which, let me tell you, as someone who's tried to counter-program, having multiple tends to dampen the message. So for Democrats, have more. Go ahead and kill your own message on a night that you think you're going to make your strongest statement. The president here, though, what he's going to do is talk about what's going forward, what they want to do next. That's something you haven't seen Democrats do really at any point when it comes to leadership across what we're looking at going into midterms. And on top of that, I worry about Democrats overplaying their political theater hand in the chamber. It is clear that someone will like, let's open up a bingo board right now. And you know, you mark off and take a shot for who's the first one to stand up. Does someone get dragged out by the sergeant at arms because they won't behave themselves? Which level of political theatrics will we get from the Democrats in the chamber? And I will remind my, my Democrat friends here that too much political theater during the state of the union will turn the American people off more than anything Donald Trump can say from the roster. Does she have a point? Look, the leadership of the Democrats will tell folks that they do not want that kind of disruption. If you want to silently protest, you all want to wear the same colors. You want to have some fans that say something, whatever. But we know anybody who's done politics for more than 10 seconds know that the American people want to get through this. It's not going to be anybody really watching it who hadn't already made up their mind anyway. So folks are trying to, in both parties, have something that they can get clicks on, raise money on and campaign around, where at the end of the day, it's the State of the Union. And what do the viewers want? What do you think the voters, the viewers want? Look, there's a lot of Americans that are hurting right now. And it's not all the Republicans' fault. It's not all Democrats' fault. We ain't in charge of nothing in Washington, D.C., but we want to be. So we should give a vision and let folks in the midterm make that decision. But right now, folks are really hurting around the cost of their utility bills or anything else that could be going on with their health care. Folks are living through something, and they look to their government a lot of times and say, what are you going to do to help us? That's what me and her do every day in our regular lives. to say, we have a vision that can help you. She'll counter that and say that she has one. It's who do the American people believe and can he deliver that? And we've seen presidents at State of the Union throughout history. Bill Clinton would do that finger like that and look at you and my mamaw would think he was talking directly to her through the camera. But then you would have somebody like Bush or somebody like Trump the first time and maybe it wouldn't land or pick your Democrat. There have been presidents that could deliver that message and some that struggled with that. Joe Biden. He did. So when you say in your everyday lives, what do you mean for people who don't know? Yeah. So Chuck and I are both Republican or Republican. We're both political consultants. I'm the Republican. He's the Democrat. But, you know, you can come out over the water's fine on this side of the pool. It's too shit. And every day we are running and talking to candidates and campaigns and public affairs and messaging out to the American people about the midterm. So when we're talking to candidates, it is about affordability. And how are you going to acknowledge the reality that people are going through? Because Chuck's exactly right here. That was a huge misstep for Biden and for Democrats in the last cycle was they refused to acknowledge the obvious to the American people. And the American people can smell a liar and BS a mile away. They know they're like, oh, you're telling me things are better. Tell that to my gas tank that just took 50 bucks for regular fuel. Right. They know it because they live it every day. So our job is to message and get our candidates in a spot that I wouldn't have a statewide candidate message on the state of the union right now. I would have them message on their state of the state. But if I have a federal candidate, then I am going to have them message on it. And we're going to be talking about the highlights of the Republican Party, the tax cuts. They're going to talk about the one big, beautiful bill. They're going to talk about people keeping more in their paychecks and in their Social Security checks and in their income. You will see all of that. And so being able to choose who messages which portion of what is kind of part of the fun we get to have. There's the far right and there's the far left of either one of the parties that will take pieces of that to try to raise money and get themselves clicks and get into the algorithms when regular folks don't care about that. But there are parts of our democracy that is the underbelly of our democracy that does that piece. Politico's West Wing Playbook reported on Wednesday, Trump's cabinet huddles on midterms messaging. Most of President Donald Trump's cabinet is currently meeting at the Capitol Hill Club with Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, Deputy Chief of Staff James Blair and other top Trump political advisors for a closed-door strategy session focused on how to sell Trump's agenda and sharpen the GOP's midterm message. Erin, what do you make of that kind of strategy? Is that typical, that the cabinet is getting together, the chief of staff? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when it comes to the midterms, it will be all hands on deck. And if you look at President Trump's cabinet, it's one that has been a great level of surrogacy for him throughout his presidency and before his presidency. So utilizing them where and when you can is going to be part of the midterm strategy, I'm sure, because the president cannot go everywhere and should not go everywhere when it comes to campaigning and helping races down ballot. And so for them, yes, getting ahead on this. But also not only are they getting ahead on this, they're telling people they're getting ahead on this. They made sure that this got into the press so that everybody knows, guys, we're not waiting for the midterms to come to us. We're trying to be proactive to make sure that because they have what, like somewhere between 300 and 500 million dollars sitting in the president's, you know, political accounts right now and money to spend on the midterms. Part of that strategy is how they're going to be spending that money. So as a consultant for Republicans what your ask to the White House Who do you want to show up in the races that you consulting on It depends on the race It depends on the candidate and depends on the moment for the message right That the big thing is that each race is so uniquely identifiable to itself that to make a grand statement about, oh, I want this person. Listen, if I was looking at the candidate, a candidate, especially if I'm looking at more of a you've got to make a Republican base play, you've got to be making a play to the right. You might want somebody like an RFK junior to come out for you, somebody who can draw a crowd for you and help amp up your base. I mean, you might want somebody like, you know, a Doug Burgram, who's also been on the trail, who knows what this looks like to be able to come out. Pete Hegseth, if you have a military installation or anything military veterans wise, I mean, those are all good. Doug Collins, you know, there are a lot of really great members out there that could help message. I have a different view, shockingly. And that is that that meeting was about crisis management, because this White House and the Republican Party right now is fighting a headwind, no matter, not this particular one because of Donald Trump, But any Republican or Democrat in a historical part of the opposition party always picks up seat. You've talked about this in the next off your election. And we're supposed to do that. Only three times in history has the opposition party, no matter who they are, have not picked up seats. So you add that to the crisis, but there's more to it. There's been a whole bunch of elections that's happened since he's been nominated and been sworn in as our president. It's been over a year and there's been hundreds of elections. And in those elections, Democrats have overperformed in many of them. And my political consultant friends can say it's a special election. It's no turn. And I get that. But in 26 of those elections, Democrats have flipped Republican seats and Republicans have yet to flip a single seat. So, again, it don't mean everything, but there is definitely trends that makes that be a crisis communication. And to Aaron's point, where she's exactly right about that would give them hope if I was them, is that they have a super PAC that the president controls that has three hundred million dollars in it that we have never had before in seeing an opposition to a midterm. Let me pick up on that point, because Axios reported GOP angst over voter turnout builds as losses pile up. Republicans are getting crushed in scores of state and local races, raising deep concerns about a deflated base, refusing to show up to vote even in the most pro-Trump areas. The numbers are startling. In race after race, Democrats are outpacing their 2024 performance by double digits, a clear sign of a yawning enthusiasm gap. Erin, are you seeing these numbers? Yeah, and they're real. The numbers are real. And it speaks to a couple of things. One, it speaks to when Donald Trump's not on the ballot, what do you do to get people out who are those low-propensity Trump-only voters? This is one of the biggest questions that's going to go into this midterm cycle because while the Republican Party and the second part of this is that the voter propensity and style has flipped between Democrats and Republicans since the Obama era, and you've seen that realignment within the parties. The Republicans have become a bigger tent party with low-propensity voters. We've got more opportunity to bring more voters in, but they don't have a normal pattern of voting behavior. So you have to try to convince someone to do something they haven't normally done. Democrats are now the tried and true come hell or high water, snowstorm or avalanche. They will show up to vote no matter what. And it's not necessarily as a depression of a Republican vote as it is trying to convince a voter to come out again who doesn't normally behave in that fashion. One of the statistics that I was looking at, because I dig into the numbers every day and I'm doing a lot of work in my home state of Texas, is I was looking at Tarrant County where there had just been this special election. But Tarrant County is the largest city in America that's totally controlled by Republicans. It's right next to Dallas. It's Cowtown. I spent a lot of time at Bellybob's there dancing. But that's a side note and a story for another day. But in this Tarrant County, it's a Republican seat. But there's still 40 percent Democrats there. But they always get outvoted because we don't show up historically at the same rates. I looked at early vote on day one and 8,400 Democrats voted early in Tarrant County. And I said, well, how does this compare to four years ago? You always go four years back and look at an off year. Don't do presidential primary. So I looked four years ago and it was double. But then I looked at the Republican turnout on day one and it was 6,000. But that was the first time more Democrats had voted than Republicans. But let me give my Republican friends some credit as well. The 6,000 number was 2,000 more than had voted four years ago as well. So you see energy on both sides. historic levels of turnout from both parties. It's just more for Democrats in that particular county on that particular day. But that's a pattern that's playing out across the country. All right. Well, stick with Texas, Chuck Rocha. What do you think about James Tallarico and his chances in that primary race and possibly general election Texas Senate race? Look, in full disclosure, I work for James Tallarico. I've worked for him for months. He's a good friend of mine. And I think it's just a different of contrast of styles, right? I'm not going to bash other Democrats here on this program. But I'll say if you watch James and as an old country boy that grew up in a Baptist church. When you see a guy get on stage and say, look, we should love our neighbors. Erin's a Republican. Don't mean I hate Erin because she's team red. I try to look for something me and Erin have in common with each other that we can talk about. A lot of times it's football, but I look for that. I think that's what James Tallarico is doing with people out there right now. And I think it says something as well. When you have lots of Republicans hoping for Jasmine Crockett to win, just like I'm hoping that Ken Paxton wins a Republican primary. Do Democrats have a chance in Texas? I think anything could happen in any given year and look, there's been a lot of money left lost in Texas. Democrats love to light money on fire for that big fever dream in Texas. I worked for the last Democrat in Texas who was Ann Richards. Lots have changed since then, but we've also seen an election cycle this year where I just explained to everybody here that we have flipped 26 seats. It doesn't mean that Texas is a guarantee, but don't sleep on Texas. I think that there is an opportunity down the road for Texas to be more competitive. Just when you look at the population shifts within the state, this is real. The numbers are getting closer. but it still remains a fever dream for Democrats. And Republicans, no matter if it's Jasmine Crockett or James Tallarico, know that Democrats will be lighting millions of dollars on fire for races that they could be spending that are a bit more competitive just to try and chase this fever dream. Because they didn't learn it already with Colin Allred. They didn't learn it with Beto. I was born to do this O'Rourke. They have now done it yet again. And so, however this ends, there will be lots of money spent in Texas and likely lit on fire by the Democrats. Before we leave Texas, have you seen Chuck dance? I have not, but I need to see this. It's called boot scooting, okay? There we go. There we go. All right. Well, let's talk about Georgia because President Trump is headed there into Marjorie Taylor Green's district. Early voting is taking place already there. What does that signal, Chuck Rocha, President Trump going into Georgia? It shows that he is petty and that he likes to poke at people. And that's her backyard. And she and him have come to, let's just say, many, many disagreements here lately. So my staff gives me a lot of heck every now and then because of how petty I can be in a political campaign. And I'm like, look, this is Donald Trump 101. She poked him. He's poking back. And now he's going to her backyard. Yeah. Well, what do you think about going to Georgia? Are Republicans in trouble there? Georgia is now a competitive state. The swing states have moved a bit. And Georgia is much more of a competitive state. However, you are looking at a gubernatorial. You're going to be looking at a lot of races in that state. You're also looking at this congressional race. This is a state that's going to be politically active. And with the president showing up in a state where he can help drive turnout, especially in the primary for an early vote, that's a good thing. Let's turn our attention to the Epstein files. This week, former Prince Andrew arrested on suspension of misconduct in public office due to allegedly giving documents to Jeffrey Epstein, confidential documents. We have coming up in Congress the deposition of Hillary and Bill Clinton. Former President Bill Clinton and the former Secretary of State scheduled to give depositions before the House Committee investigating Epstein. On Monday, Secretary Clinton accused the Trump administration of a cover-up of the Epstein files. There's something about this administration's attitude toward this, which I think really leads us to conclude they have something to hide. We don't. We have been willing to say whatever we know. We've even done it under oath. But they want us to testify, not everyone else who's mentioned many, many times, hundreds of thousands of times in these files. So we've said, fine, let us do it in public. And we will appear in public and we'll answer all your questions. And we'll get to that in just a moment. But just to be clear, do you regret the links that there have been? You know, we have no links. We have a very clear record that we've been willing to talk about, which my husband has said he took some rides on the airplane for his charitable work. I don't recall ever meeting him. Did you ever meet Elaine Maxwell? I did on a few occasions, and thousands of people go to the Clinton Global Initiative. So it, to me, is not something that is really at the heart of what this matter is about. Chuck, let me ask you first, what does the party need to do when it comes to the Clintons and these Epstein files? I've been advising folks about this, and it's very important for folks to understand this, that this is not about Bill Clinton or Donald Trump. It's about these victims and whoever it was, whether it was Bill Clinton, whether it was Donald Trump, whether Republican, Independent, whoever had anything to do with this disgusting Epstein and all the things that are wrapped up in it. When those files came out, I was like, oh my God, like there should be accountability. And as a Democrat, Democrats should look into the camera and say there should be accountability for anybody. And I don't care what their last name is, whether it's Trump or Clinton or anybody else that are associated with if they did wrong. I'm not saying everybody did wrong, but if they can prove they did wrong, then there should be accountability and it should be the easiest slam dunk for any politician to say that. Erin, is this hurting the Republican Party? No, I don't think so for a number of reasons. One, Hillary Clinton yet again gives a masterclass in gaslighting the American people. She's like, we're willing to answer questions. It got to the point where they almost had to be subpoenaed for this to happen. So for her to now pretend like all of a sudden she's been so forthcoming about this, let's not rewrite history here, Hillary. For Republicans, I see this less as dividing the party as much as it is. This is just something that we will continue to shine light on. These documents have existed for multiple administrations and with multiple people in power in Washington, D.C., and it took Republicans in Congress to be the ones. I hear Hakeem Jeffries and I hear Democrats bemoaning what's getting released and how it's getting released when they all had the opportunity to do that when they were in leadership themselves. So they'll continue to lead forward on this and get this out here. Ultimately, Chuck's point is completely correct. The most important thing for anybody, politician, person, or otherwise, is to acknowledge that the focus here needs to be the victims. The focus needs to be making sure that the victims get justice and there's accountability for anybody who broke any laws. All right. Time for one of our favorite segments here, Not on My Bingo Card, where we highlight a funny, offbeat, or downright weird political or cultural moment. Musician Kid Rock is back in the spotlight, this time with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in a new video. The HHS secretary posted with a message to get active and eat real food. All the rights and the needy The police and the police And this is for the questions that don't have any answers The midnight glancers and the topless dancers The gander freaks, card packed with speakers The Gs with the 40s and the chicks with beepers The northern lights and the southern comfort And it don't even matter The puncture, all the crackheads, the critics, the cynics And all my heroes at the methadone clinic All my hoods of a world misunderstood I said, it's all good and it's all in fun. They're getting the pit and trying to love someone. All righty, Chuck Rocha. God, I just cannot unsee that anymore, can I? I'll just say this. As somebody who works out every day, very big on physical fitness, folks should like to live as healthy as they can. But when you go to the gym, you don't work out in blue jeans. My biggest thing was drinking the milk in the hot tub. That was probably the weirdest part of that. But you know what this is doing? It's supposed to be viral. It's supposed to be watchable. It's supposed to get people talking about working out and eating healthy. So as weird as it is, it is succeeding in its goal. That's all the time we have. Republican strategist Erin McGuire and Democratic strategist Chuck Rocha, thank you both for lending your expertise. Thank you. Let's close this week's program with our ceasefire moment of the week, highlighting what's possible when politicians come together as Americans, not just partisans. Illinois politicians, Democratic Senator Dick Durbin and former Republican Congressman and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, sat down for a bipartisan chat at Illinois State University recently. Here's a portion on the upcoming midterm elections. We need to have a record turnout for this primary. I hope it's on both sides. It would be good if it is, but I want to make sure that those on my side of the equation understand that the usual poor turnout ain't acceptable this time around. People have to be involved in elections. They have to know who the candidates are. One of the things that I've said many, many times, when the election's over, the people that are elected do not get elected to serve a political party. They get elected to serve the people. Bipartisan conversations are what we love to showcase here on Ceasefire. That's all the time we have for this episode. Ceasefire is also available as a podcast. Find us in all the usual places. I'm Greta Brawner. And remember, whether or not you agree, keep talking and keep listening.