S3:EP 11 - Postscript: Lindsay

This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023 but what if we didn't get the whole story the moment you look at the whole picture the case collapsed what if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe oh my god, I think she might be innocent listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lindsay, it's so good to see you. So good to see you, too. It's been a little while, and I'm so excited to just be able to talk with you a bit today. How are you feeling? Good. I'm really looking forward to this. I feel like it's been forever since we've gotten to talk. Yeah, yeah. It is kind of wild. It's been like over a year and a half since our first interview. And now here we are, sort of at the end of it all, which is amazing. From Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts, this is The Turning, River Road. I'm Aylin Lance Lesser. So what's it been like to hear your story in full now out in the world? I have been telling people it's such a different experience hearing it being told, even though I'm the one telling it. And even though I lived it and I've told the story so many times, it's a different experience hearing it. And there's been moments when I've been really sad for that girl. There's moments when I'm so proud of her for her courage and bravery. One thing that stood out for me was the whiplash, you know, the back and forth. Am I loved? Am I not loved? Am I wanted? Am I hated? Am I in God's graces? Am I not in his graces? I think was so apparent to me. at times I was, oh my gosh, I cannot believe that I actually did live through all of that. It's been a crazy experience listening to it being told, and I think in chronological order, because, you know, I'll tell bits of my story here and there, and depending on the audience, that depends on what I share. So I think hearing it from episode one all the way through has just been it's been good it's hasn't been triggering at all which is great I thought you know maybe there would be parts where it would be and I've definitely cried at different parts and have experienced lots of emotions but nothing to that you know set me back or anything which has been great yeah I mean has it affected how you see everything that happened looking back I think it has brought up a couple of things. So I'm in therapy right now, which has been wonderful. And it's been amazing. And one thing that I've kind of realized, and I think I was almost embarrassed to even think it or ashamed to think it, but before the first and second episode came out, I wanted to make a post on social media and I wanted to do a little collage. Some of it was the rings and the veil and the saltish an excerpt from my journal that i had written from that time the screenshot of jess and i at um the hearing and then a smattering of the notes victor had written me wasn't all of them just like some of them smattered around and i looked at them and I started crying and not at all out of like love for him, you know, like, oh my gosh, I miss him or anything like that. It was more of, was any of it real? Did he ever really truly care about me? Cause there, and I'm not talking about anything intimate. It was, you know, in those moments when maybe he gave me a song to put to music or he gave me a Bible verse to research because he knew I like doing that stuff. The times when he thought I was doing well and showed me that he was appreciating the work I was putting in, I was like, oh, what are these tears? And I kind of felt ashamed and embarrassed to even, I was like, why am I thinking, having these thoughts? And I decided to bring it up in therapy and told her all this stuff. And she put down her pad and pen and she was like, Lindsay, everything you're saying is totally normal. And we started talking about Stockholm Syndrome and how especially kids who were abused for such an early age, they kind of developed this, oh, but they really did, you know, like care for me and love me. And I think it's been so good to talk about it because I've never talked about that part before. I'm definitely going to keep exploring it in therapy. And I think it's really good because I'm sure so many people deal with Stockholm Syndrome and could feel ashamed or embarrassed or guilty of why they're having those thoughts. And so I think it's a really great thing to talk about. So that's one thing that after seeing those notes from him and listening that we're diving into therapy, that's been really great. In bringing up Stockholm Syndrome or kind of feeling these positive emotions towards someone that has, you know, abused you, what is your interpretation of what was happening there and your reaction and what that means for you? Yeah, I think, well, we've kind of like just gotten into it, but Victor, at a very young age, he became everything to me. You know, he took everything away, became, in a sense, my mother, my father, my teacher, my eventually lover, my apostle in my life, the person who I was supposed to look to for guidance as far as the Bible and heaven and everything. and so I already you know had gotten to the point where I knew and believed truly believed it wasn't my fault but I think it's just even having those hints of like looking at his handwriting and I think it just reaffirms for me you know in talking with my therapist that none of it was my fault you know that he came in and did all these things and my reactions to it now even if it is like wondering, oh, like, was any of it real at any point that because he did all those things, that is a normal reaction to it. Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense at all. We're like definitely still in the beginning stages of working through this part. Yeah. And actually, that's a good point, too. And that's so often my understanding is that as you process trauma, It might like change over time and how you feel about it changes. And there might be, you know, you're still kind of processing what happened, even though you've processed it so much, you know, you're not at a clear final conclusion or something. I mean, will anyone ever be? Right. Yeah. Constantly growing and evolving. But no, that makes sense that your interpretation is like, listen, whatever I'm thinking, even if I'm trying to seek his approval still or wondering how he felt about me, like that's not on me. Like you were conditioned. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's helped me see that in other and again, not like intimate relationships with boyfriends or anything, but maybe certain family members who had a sense of, you know, had this authority to them. at times I was you know had this mentality of oh I want to make them happy I want to do well whether it was completing a task or the way I thought about something or you know agreeing with them on a certain subject and explaining myself on why it's helped me see those things in my life and be like oh wow like I think I reacted that way because of what happened you know and because of being conditioning to think that way. So it's been really, really good. Have you had reactions from other people in your life? From some of what I've heard, it seems like a lot of people have heard your story and support you. And like, I've heard of people really, you know, having your back and based on the feedback we've gotten, people think you're amazing. And I'm just curious if you've gotten some of that feedback directly yourself or what kinds of reactions you've gotten. Yeah, it's been pretty much all positive. So amazing. And I wasn't sure when it would come out. In my mind, I thought, oh, there's going to be some negative people and just bracing for that. But it's been for the majority so wonderful people. I mean, random strangers saying amazing things, encouraging words. I even had a customer, a client that I was working with. He emailed me. He's like, I don't know if this is a weird way to say this. He was very, very gracious with what he wrote and said that he had been listening to my podcast and just really amazing things. And I thought that was really nice. You know, people hear it and reaching out and yeah. Like in your real life. Yes. People who might have never known about everything you've been through. Yeah. How'd that feel? Oh, it felt great. I was just like, oh my goodness, you know, not weird at all. Thank you so much for saying something and for listening. I'm just really glad it's getting out there. Yeah, I've had a lot of positive feedback from family members. A number of family members I haven't heard from, which was kind of surprising. I thought maybe I would hear from more, but hopefully they're listening. I did reach out to one of my sisters before the podcast aired, and I kind of realized that she had never heard my story from me telling it. It was probably what the media had told her, what the cult at the time was telling her. so i just reached out to her let her know it would be coming out and that i'd appreciate it if she would take the time to listen and afterwards if she would like to talk i'd be open to that never heard from her that was back in june so i don't know if she's listened or not but i'm definitely hoping that if people who did support victor or gave excuses for what happened if they listen to it, that their ears are open, you know, because somebody can listen to something and it just, you know, go right over their head or something, that their hearts are really open to hearing what happened. Have you heard from anyone in the group or from River Road Fellowship? I did hear from one of the maidens, brother and sister separately. Yeah, that was really, really nice. Just them sending a lot of encouragement. And one of them said, he was like, I think this is one of the best things I've ever heard. And your honesty and how you tackle everything is just amazing. And I know when we talked in the beginning, I said, I want people to feel like they're just sitting with me and we're having a conversation. And that's a lot of the feedback I've gotten. How compelling, how genuine, how truthful how calm I sound, which is wonderful because I wanted people just to get to know me, even when we are talking about really hard things. And, you know, the laughs that you leave in, I've laughed along with myself, you know, as I'm telling the story. It's just, yeah, that's been good. So hearing from those two was great. Somebody commented on one of my posts on Facebook. But that's about it, I think. I wonder, you know, if they're listening and... Yeah. Any memories that we haven't delved into that you were reminded of or that have more recently come to mind or kind of stand out to you? Hearing Reese's voice on the podcast brought back a lot of memories from that time. Reese, the prosecutor on the case, Reese Fredrickson. I remember Jess and I preparing to meet him for the first time and of course being nervous because it had been two years of almost nothing, you know, like nothing going anywhere. And so just wondering if almost like maybe that way he was thinking of us, you know, like, is he the real deal? Is he really gonna take on this case and fight for us? And so hearing him say that he knew within five seconds, I mean, I was like, what? That's crazy. Because we knew, or I'll speak for myself, but I know Jess was like in it with us, knew right away that he was the one to represent us. And why'd you have that feeling? He just, he seemed very genuine, very compassionate and just convinced that he was going to find Victor and put him in jail for us. That you just got the sense that he wouldn't stop fighting until justice took place. Any other things like that that kind of came up for you I mean there were things that made me think back on those times like hearing the maidens voices on the calls hearing my mom voice on the call That would bring me back to those moments. I think hearing the maidens especially, that was hard because not because of, you know, them not supporting us, but again, of just hearing their voices and remembering some of the like good times and things and how things are so different now and wondering if they're listening to the podcast and what their opinion is of it. That was a little bit hard. to hear them it does seem like a reaction you've said numerous times is is what's painful is also the loss of your relationship with the other maidens and like missing aspects of that life but because of what happened a lot of that has been sort of destroyed and that that's part of the pain you now feel. Yeah, it's just an example of how these things can come up in a variety of ways, in ways that maybe an outsider might not think of initially. Right. You know, because they were my family for all those years, the only ones I really had. So yeah, definitely there's still a hole there that probably will never be filled. I mean, How do you feel a loss like that? Losing nine of your best friends that you've grown up with since you were a kid. Hearing Jess's episode, that was tough. Yeah. I love how she was conveyed so beautifully, though. I think people really got the, hopefully, the sense of who she was and how beautiful and bright and her free spirit. it but yeah that did like when i heard her passing that just brought back so many memories and like just that you know it was covid so i couldn't go see go to the funeral and yeah that was really hard it's funny because a facebook memory popped up today from five years ago i had posted a picture of Jess and I and just talking about how much I missed her. And I was like, I sometimes find myself talking to you. And I said something like, you weren't supposed to leave this early, but you were always one step ahead of me, you know, since she had left the cult before I did. That was a tough one to hear, but also I really beautifully done, I thought. Yeah. What emotions came up for you? sadness um happiness like just a lot of memories i don't know when i think of jess and i now i always just picture us playing our guitars together because it's one of those happy safe moments you know on the deck of the chapel with the wind blowing and i think almost every time i see someone playing a guitar guitars in somebody's house it brings me back to jess and i and not in a painful way in a almost like a happy longing type way i visited a friend's house a couple weekends ago him and his wife he had a couple guitars there and i was like oh like one was a martin i said oh this is a really good one i used to have my dad's it's probably 40 some years old by now maybe and uh he handed one of the guitars to me i started playing and um he was playing and then later on he was at the piano and they had like a whole karaoke setup so we just started singing and jamming out and i have not done that since the maidens and i really almost started crying but I was like come on Lindsay don't be weird but yeah it just kind of and the wife was in the kitchen putting dishes away and it just brought me back to being in the kitchen at the farmhouse at Maiden Love some of the maidens cleaning up from dinner some of us playing music and singing together and it wasn't like those memories used to be really painful but my tears weren't from pain it was just from thankfulness I think for the time we did have together even though it was so terrible a situation we were in just a thankfulness that we had those sweet moments you know of just yeah being ourselves and playing our instruments and having a moment of, like, serenity in the midst of the chaos that was our lives. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain? A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's, a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I listened to, can I talk about episode 10? Yeah. Okay. Listened to that today, twice. I was really proud of myself, I think, because I, you know, when I was talking about family members listening to it and the people who have supported my parents and the excuses, I sounded very brave and bold. I was like, go me. And I'm glad that that came through on there because you should feel empowered as a survivor, you know? And the letter to Peggy, my mother, that was tough to hear. Definitely brought tears, especially now since I am a mom. I mean, every time I think about what I wrote there and then think about Frankie and I and just how different and wonderful our relationship is and what a contrast, you know. Yeah, because you wrote that before you were a mom talking about your, you know, future kids. And now you have a kid. Yeah, I think a big topic that I've seen through all of this is breaking the cycle, being raised that way, conditioned that way for so long. I've had people ask me, oh, well, how did you know to do that with Frankie? Or how did you know to handle a situation like that? And I mean, I don't know if I have a full answer for that, but what I try to do is think about the way I was raised and how I would want to be treated as a kid and how I would want to be heard and, you know, loved and valued. And it's really helped me. You know, there's certain things that I will never do because it was done to me. And I think breaking the cycle, that's been like a big topic that's been on my mind. And I think it's important because so many people could go through something like this. And then you see examples of this where people will do something and people say, oh, well, look at how they were raised. Of course they did that because their parents did that and their grandparents did that. And it's so easy to just give excuses for that type of behavior. Like, oh, well, that's just how they were raised. So, of course, they're going to repeat it when it doesn't have to be that way. There's another way to break that and to live your life and raise your kids, whatever you're going to do with your life. So hearing this story and then the parts about me and Frankie and seeing how our lives are now, it's been really apparent that I've been able to do that. And I'm so thankful for that. And hopefully we'll be able to share more of that on that topic as time goes on. Yeah, it's interesting. As I've been thinking about your story and sort of the way that you've shared it, something that strikes me is I've heard a lot of, you know, like cult documentaries and things in the world. But something that stands out about how you shared your story was the perspective of a kid. You know, you're just in it. You didn't have a say. You didn't get to decide. And you just kind of were surviving and living and trying to find the joy where you could. And you did find the joy in some cases, you know, but you also faced a lot of horrible things and seeing it from that perspective from the beginning through the end. That struck me as I hear your story. Yeah. Before this came out, I wanted to take Frankie to therapy with me just because I thought it would be good. Like, you never know. She doesn't have social media or a phone, but you just never know kids at school or what she's going to hear. I just thought it'd be good in case she had any questions. And I've never really told her in more depth other than like a concubine or my parents gave me away what had happened. And so we went, booked a two-hour session, like back-to-back so we'd have time. So my therapist met with her first just to get to know her, which was wonderful. And then I went in there as well. And she had me start from the beginning to tell Frankie kind of what my childhood was like, which I've never even thought to do that. I thought it was great because it's her history too, you know? even though our grandparents did terrible things just to know what my life was like as a kid then of course we got to the point where we met victor and then us moving to minnesota and i was telling the story of how my mom had her siblings come through our house and say to them oh you know all the pictures on the walls if you want the frames you know take them they were really nice frame. She would always, it was all of us as kids. She would get our pictures done at Olin Mills every year or a couple of times a year. And one of them said, oh, Peggy, don't you want the pictures? And she's like, no, I'm not taking them. And Frankie looked up and she's like, why didn't your mom love her kids? And like you were just saying, hearing from a child's perspective. I like looked at my therapist and tears started falling. I just never thought of that before, you know, like I've heard the story, I've told that story, but hearing it from a 10 year old's perspective and also knowing she thought that it was such a foreign concept to her because she'll never know that kind of, she'll always be loved. She'll never know that kind of feeling of not being wanted by me that was an emotional for me moment hearing that from her yeah it's almost like frankie has allowed you to even see things differently or recognize things in your past that you didn't even kind of see before because maybe you're used to it Mm hmm. Has Frankie heard any of this? No. Of you telling your story? No. And boy, she has asked so many times. Oh, mommy, let me listen to 15 minutes. It'll be fine. I can handle it. No, I can tell her I'm like, you know, some. I read this book by Corrie Ten Boom once. She was a lady who hid Jews during the Holocaust and she went to Auschwitz when she was little She told a story She asked her dad a question and her dad they were getting off a train and he pulled the luggage down and he said Corey, can you lift this? And she couldn't. And he said, sometimes some knowledge is too heavy for people to carry. So let me carry it for now. So I always use that with Frankie now, just to give her like a visual. So I just tell her, let mommy carry it for now. And when you're older and it's time then we'll talk about it or listen to it yeah but she tries or she's tried to ask yeah what a beautiful visual too or way of communicating that yeah she's been so great though I mean we're really good there's a like a few things that have happened And well, she had a birthday party to go to right after school ended. And it was a pool party and like a bunch of her friends are going to be there. So she told me, drop me off for a little bit and then come back to get me. So I was like, OK, we get there. And it turned out that she was one of two people who had responded that nobody else was going to be there. So she still told me she's like, well, maybe leave for an hour and come back. So I started walking to my car and I just got this feeling that I should stay. And I was like, all right, I'll grab my water and go back in. And all of a sudden I heard footsteps running up behind me and I turn around and Frankie's running at me, crying, asking me to stay. Please stay. I don't want to be alone. Please stay. And I'm like, absolutely. I'm just grabbing my water and I'm coming in. Later on the way home, we're driving and she at one point just quietly said, says, I'm sorry that I made you stay with me. And I, you know, when you have like a moment and it's, the moment is like a second, but it's like a million things go on in your mind in that split second. I immediately thought of my mom not being there for me, you know, just, and feeling like, why would she even apologize? Why would Frankie feel the need to apologize? And I looked at her And I was like frankie of course I stayed, you know, like i'm your mother I would never want to put you in a situation Where you feel uncomfortable Like I will always be there for you. You never have to apologize to me for staying or being with you and That was it. It was just like then we went on and I again, i'm a crier. I dropped a couple tears But just not out of like sadness for me. It was out of just thankfulness knowing that again And she'll never feel that kind of abandonment or having to apologize for her parent staying with her and caring for her. There's been like little moments like that. I think that since the podcast has come out, I'm able to see things even clearer, whether it's me and Frankie or even in my life. So I think that's just been really good. Yeah, it's like what you've been through. although I mean it's so much and you shouldn't have had to go through it it informs how you're actually living day to day how you're parenting how you're navigating life yeah I feel like something you repeated many times is I just want to tell my story I just want to get it out there in hopes that it can help other people or bring more awareness or just so some people don't feel alone and like it's out there now. Yeah, I'm so glad. Somebody did reach out to me maybe a few weeks ago and said that they were also a survivor of sexual assault. And I remember when I first, like the media went public in 2014, I was getting so many messages. And at that point, I hadn't had Frankie yet because she was born in summer of 2014. And then some of it I was, you know, just a new mom, probably postpartum. I don't even think I knew what that was back then, but, and I didn't respond to anyone just because I was so overwhelmed. But this time I knew that if anyone did reach out, I wanted to reach back out. And so I did and tried to say some words of encouragement, asking if they had a support group, if they needed any resources and it was great. They messaged back and I recommended a book to them and they were like, oh yeah, I've been meaning to read that but haven't yet. So it was just, this is what I wanted from this. If people reach out being the state of mind that I'm at, the healing that I've done, being ready and able to do that. And hopefully there'll be more. I was hoping for more opportunities to open and it looks like some will. So that's really exciting. So yeah, I'm really thankful. Maybe this is a weird question, but do you have any thoughts about what you think Victor would think if he were to hear your story like this in full? I mean, he's obviously in prison at an undisclosed location. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that oh i mean i could see him thinking that he talked so much about the persecution you know in the end times when we were younger and i could see him that this is just more of like persecution and me not sticking to my vows and you know that my place in heaven is going to be less i could see him going that route i don't really know how he views like himself if he still thinks he's chosen because i from what i've kind of heard i don't even know if he has any supporters left i don't know or it's like does he feel shame at all does he feel that he did do these things and And it's hard. I don't really know what he would think. Also, maybe that's a weird question to even ask or to put that on you. I mean, in a way, it's kind of like, who cares? Yeah. But it is also just like an interesting thought. Yeah. Like, is he still under this delusion or this belief? Yeah. One of the last things I heard about him, too, is he wasn't really with it in his mind. So is he even with it enough to hear this or make sense of it? I don't know. I just wonder in that period when he was arrested and then in prison, even awaiting trial, what did Victor tell his followers? Or maybe you don't know because like you weren't among them. But considering, you know, even when you talk to Peggy, your mom, and she said mistakes were made. So on some level, maybe she was acknowledging something happened. And then even in the prison recordings, Victor acknowledged to some degree that he had done something wrong or he had made mistakes or something. What do you think he was telling his followers? Do you think he ever really acknowledged to them what he had done? I mean, obviously he pled guilty. But did he just kind of avoid it but kind of acknowledge maybe something happened? Yeah. So when it came out that he was sleeping with the married women, he shared it in a way that made you feel bad for him. He had been tempted. And just like David with Bathsheba, you know, that story in the Bible. so maybe it was along those lines i did speak with somebody who was also grew up in the cult and he shared with me that during that time he did admit to everyone that he did those things to jess and i but only jess and i but i don't know again you know it could have been shared from a place where you feel bad for him instead of actually recognizing that, well, one, he did it to, you're telling me only two of the maidens? I mean, come on, take the blinders off people. Yeah. So that was news. I just found that out not too long ago. But again, even he was like, I mean, was it really repentance? No. So he may have just admitted to that to maybe help people be like, okay, well, Lindsay and Jess are like speaking these evil things and, you know, Victor did do it, but the blood of the lamb covers all sin, just like they've said to all of us so many times before. So I don't know that he, yeah, I don't think if he did share anything, it was out of like a true repentant heart. It was probably just, okay, I did it. I'm going to probably be going to jail, but in a way where you would still feel badly for him. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast Doubt the case of Lucy Letby we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was no voicing of any skepticism or doubt it'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong listen to Doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Another question that I've actually gotten from people is just about what people knew at the time, which in a way is part of the crux of the story. And ultimately, it comes back to the question of kind of like, how could this have happened? But what do you think people in the group knew at the time or could have deduced at the time as far as the abuse that was happening? I personally will never not think that they didn't know. Especially the elders, the parents of the maidens, the ones who lived at the camp. I mean, I don't know. I have a very hard time believing it. And I truly just think that if they still claim, oh, I didn't know, or I thought something was going on, but I think that they just don't want to admit. Because that is, I mean, if you admit it, then you are saying that you took part in it to knowing and not doing anything and the abuse of those girls happening. how do you then live with yourself i've always said that about my parents if they really truly did admit what was happening i don't know that they would be able to like how do you continue to go on because knowing that oh my gosh i let my daughter be raped by that man for all those years and i knowingly gave her away and when she was 13 he would wait till she was 18 like i just think there's too many red flags. And these people, it's not like they grew up in a cult either. That's, I mean, most of them had normal upbringings as children and in their families. And I know some people still give that excuse, well, they didn't really know. And I've never been one to buy into that. I just don't think that's true. That's a really interesting point you're making about how part of it might be how they're sort of rewriting their past now or how yeah as soon as they admit that then there are all these other consequences yeah so whether they're telling themselves that or telling others that it could be that they're just not willing to go there No definitely And I mean Victor would travel in 1999 It started I believe he would travel to different locations with his camper And generally it was then the girls who became the maidens us taking care of him You were who were assigned to you know bring him coffee or help him with his notes or things like that. So I just don't buy it. I honestly don't. Anyone who was close to Victor or lived at the camp, that kind of stuff. I just don't believe it. I still think it would be great to talk with like a brainwashing expert or, you know, somebody who has, who's studied that really well, who knows it. Cause I know I've heard that a lot. Oh, they were brainwashed and, but again, I, I don't know. I don't buy into that either. My mother was very smart. She went to college. She, people always say, oh, she was smart as a whip. She had so much going for her. But the fact that even when we moved to the camp and she wanted to put on her wedding dress when we got there, it just shows me she knew what she was doing. She wasn't just some brainwashed idiot who was going there like la-di-da. She, I don't know. What does that show to you? To me, it shows that she knew that she was making a commitment to move to Minnesota, to join herself to Victor. The fall before Tabernacles, 1998, Victor had taken off his wedding ring and done the, the church is married to Jesus Christ. They're the bride of Christ. I'm taking off my wedding ring, representing that. So her putting on her wedding dress signified, I mean, what I can imagine now was her showing that we're moving here. We're committing our lives to living for the hope for Jesus Christ with you. she knew what she was doing. So for me, it's bad excuses. I hear it mostly with my mother. She wasn't in her right mind. She didn't know what she was doing. She was brainwashed. I just, I don't believe it. And you're telling me that happened that fast. I don't know how long brainwashing takes to work, but we are living out in the like regular world, you know, like regular people. November of 98, we moved there. By the summer of 99, you're having me sleep in a camper with him. I just doesn't make sense in my mind. Yeah. I mean, how could you be so far gone that you don't see any red flags and don't say anything and maybe fear? I mean, my dad did say that at one point. He was afraid to get kicked out, so he didn't say anything. But then, I mean, that's a choice that you made. You decided to live by fear instead of being a parent and doing what's right and getting your kid and family out of there. So even if people say, oh, yeah, they were brainwashed, well, there's still consequences to actions. Like you still have to admit to what you did and take accountability. And yeah. Yeah. We've been talking about my parents a lot in therapy. We've been talking about the history of them, what they were like as I was a child, to see if we could put any pieces together of why they did what they did. I was sharing how my mom, She actually admitted at an Amway conference that she was an alcoholic. I didn't know that until after I'd left the cult. But I'd remembered in second grade, I was in charge of getting myself up, making my lunch and getting myself on the bus while my mom would still be sleeping. And I didn't know that she was drunk, but there were times that I would miss the bus because I got busy watching cartoons and second grade, you're what, seven? So really young to be responsible for all that. And I'd go up there and try to wake her and she'd tell me to go to the neighbors to have the neighbor drive me to school. and then you know just how like things changed the more babies came along the less things she had planned for us the more we had to play with ourselves and and so the therapist was like maybe the five kids it was almost too much for her not that that's an excuse you know for a parent but then when victor made it available for you to go to the camp it was one less child for her to deal with basically in a way which i mean could be it i don't really know yeah in a way it's it's hard to ever really understand yeah we also talked with krista lester pitch who was basically born into river road fellowship she wasn't a maiden but you know was a part of the group what was it like hearing her story or her perspective? Hearing some of what she had to go through was sad. It just confirmed, again, the abuse that was happening on all different levels, not just being raped, but as far as being shamed and the control and the mind games. And I think I never really heard of someone's perspective on the maidens from when we were there, like a younger girl, what they thought of us. So hearing her say that what the maidens wore, we kind of became like, oh, well, I want that. And just how much we were in a sense idolized. I was like, I think I knew maybe like we were put on a pedestal, but I didn't know that that was the reaction that people were having towards us. And it was crazy to hear because she was saying all those things and almost how our life looked great from the outside you know from her perspective able to do all those things when and then knowing what I was really going through yeah that was like oh my gosh but then you're thinking oh I want this pattern but you had no idea what was happening behind the scenes just how you know must have been portrayed to other people of how our lives were and what was really going on I would say that was like a little hard to listen to because knowing that that's how people probably viewed us. But really, at the time, I probably was screaming on the inside to like leave and being verbally abused, raped mentally, you know, like all the things every single day. and then everyone on the outside was like oh well I want to be a maiden or I want to wear what they're wearing or their hair like they have it and yeah that was hard yeah I'm sorry that you had to experience that oh it's okay it was just hearing it from a different perspective you know that that's what probably other people thought yeah and I can also imagine it's different when it's a girl who's younger than you who was born into the group that's her reaction at the time you know she's a child as well versus what I can imagine the perspective of the adults was you know what I mean like she she had always been a kid in a way like didn't know any better you know what I mean yeah I'm really glad she was able to leave and I messaged her after hearing episode eight, just saying that her kids are so lucky to have her and just her like love for them. And I'm really glad she was able to get out of there and start her life. What's life like for you now? It's good. Life is going really well. I am like working on a few things, which has been really exciting. A couple essays that I'm going to submit to a couple different columns and have been in touch with a book agent. That's been really exciting. And I want to have a platform. I want to do, if anyone wants to have me speak at anything, I'd love to. But yeah, I want to do more speaking engagements. There's so much to tell. I think I definitely need to work on exactly like what my message would be or like what topics I'd want to talk about because you could go in so many different directions with this don't I know it yeah yeah seeing some of these come to fruition or being worked on is is amazing that's exciting I'm really glad that you're feeling good in general about it all and that you feel like you have some exciting things on the horizon that's great yeah Other than that, it's like the, you know, being a single mom, you never have a day off. So I mean, I don't know if I should limit that to single moms because parents are they always have, but they always are on, you know, for their kids. But it just falls. Everything falls on me. Yeah, I think you're allowed to say the single mom thing is a lot. Yeah. So it's just a lot of we're thick and already started school and all sports. I'm so excited. Frankie is barrel racing in her first rodeo in September, which I know makes me so thankful when I found in her journal when we first moved to Texas in 2022. too. We went to our first rodeo here and I had found later that she had written, my mom took me to a rodeo tonight and I saw barrel racing and I know that that's what I want to do. She was eight at the time. Okay, pause. Wait, I don't know what barrel racing is. Oh, what is that? It's where they come out of the chute riding the horse really fast. It's in an arena. They have three barrels set up almost like in a triangle. So you come out of the chute and there's a barrel a little bit further down on the right, one on the left, and then way down in the middle. So you race around the barrels in a pattern and get timed. So she fell in love with it and she started riding. And the girl that we're riding with now, her trainer, is absolutely amazing. She's so well-connected, so generous with her time with Frankie. And so, yeah, she's able to ride in her first rodeo. I looked at her the other day and I was like, do you ever think about the rodeo coming up and this is like a dream come true of yours? She's like, yeah, all the time. And it made me so happy because, I mean, I feel like I relate everything back to what I didn't have, which I guess would say okay, because I'm like in a thankfulness type of way. I didn't have that from my parents. And so I'm, it just made me so thankful that I'm at a place in my life where I can give her these things and support her. So that's really exciting for her and for me. That is amazing. That is so cool that Frankie's doing that. Yeah. I'm very impressed. Yeah, so that's great. And she's in drill team through school. So that's exciting. She has her first dance at the Frisco Rough Riders game in August, the end of August here. So that's exciting. Yeah, it's just I feel like my life really revolves around her right now. It's just that stage, you know, which is fine. I love it. Like, I'm totally here for it. I'm going to blink and she's going to be off to college. So I'm just trying to really savor it all. Yeah. Yeah. So honestly, not like a ton of stuff I'm doing for myself other than therapy, writing. I started on some more reading. You sound pretty busy. Yeah. Yes, really busy. And I honestly don't mind hanging out with Frankie, which sounds weird. But, you know, I mean, I hear some parents like, oh, like complain about their kids. And yes, you know, we have our arguments and stuff. But the majority of the time, it's tons of laughs and even grocery shopping together is fun. And I just love having her around. So it's good. It's a good season of life. Love that. Well, is there anything else you wanted to say in response to everything or? I'm just so thankful for you and Erica and the whole team, the whole team, please, like you probably have. But just my thanks to everyone who's worked on this. I I'm really thankful that you guys helped make this a reality. And I mean, that's one thing. Just very thankful for you guys. really thank you Lindsay for taking the time to really just open up and be so vulnerable to share your story and also thanks for talking with me today oh my gosh I was so excited yeah it's been too long it's way too long yeah I'm so glad we were able to do this The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Erica Lance and me. Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound design by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact-checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John Perotti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch. and Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor at iHeart Podcast. You can follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch and you can reach out via email, theturningatrococopunch.com. I'm Aileen Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? How did this have been made to fit? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle? A shady hypnosis scam? Or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.