The Perfect Husband

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Happy Dating Detectives Monday! Hello! We had a fun weekend. You had a Barbie convention. I had self-defense. I'm so proud of you, Hannah. I love that you're doing these self-defense classes. It's called Don't Get Killed Club and Hannah has done an amazing job of creating this space where she's making self-defense normal and cool and encouraging. You just do it like it's... You don't have to be a boxer. You just show the basics. But we do need to practice. I'm literally just a girl! We just gotta practice. But I'm excited. I mean, we're also... We'll do these announcements and then we'll get to the episode. CrimeCon in Vegas. We'll be there taking you to other conventions. So that's the end of May. And if you want to come, hang out with us. And also if you're a true crime person, you gotta go. It's the last weekend in May. It's in Vegas. Is it the Seizures Palace? I think so. And it's gonna be so much fun. We're gonna be there with a booth and we have some fun surprises for you. So please come and see us. It's gonna be so cool. Yay! And that's that. Patreon also. Join Patreon. We love Patreon. I'm sorry, I'm flying through these announcements without Grace. But you guys can do it by now. Let's get into it. I want you guys to meet Sydney. Our guest is awesome. She's such a badass mom. We're gonna talk about a lot. I mean, definitely some abuse comes up and mental health some things. And she talks about some childhood trauma. But in general, I mean... Let's just say this dogfish was a nice guy. Or maybe he might be a jellyfish. We don't know. You don't know. You have to listen to the Anton understand what we mean by that. But you're gonna be annoyed because I was annoyed because at the beginning it really sounds like a nice story. And then you know it's not and then you're like, what's coming up? She's very inspiring. Like she's really awesome. So I can't wait to hear our whole conversation. Love her. Yes. For sure you're gonna love her. Anything else we need to tell them before we get into it? No, I think that's it. Let's meet her. So we have Sydney. Sydney, we would love having you here. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thanks for having me. Will you please take us on your journey? Absolutely. I grew up in a home that was a little bit chaotic. There was addiction in the home. But it was also another side that was very normal. So I felt like my whole life I was kind of balancing that reality. And as I grew up, I became very independent. I was working a job in an HR role, but it was really a warehouse type environment. So it was tons of men. I was one of two women there. They kind of were like my big brothers. It felt very comfortable. And I just felt very safe in that environment. It was very relaxed. And I just knew I was surrounded by good people. They were in kind of like a rougher industry, but they were truly just like great men that I could go to if I was scared or needed something. So I was living downtown in a really neat area, kind of like lots of young nightlife. I owned my own home. I really felt like I was kind of killing it. I was in my mid twenties. Yeah. And I had just like a really active social life. I was super independent and enjoyed my independence. I never really felt lonely and I loved where I was. So I was actually a victim of a home invasion when I owned that home. God, that must have been so scary. What happened? So I was on the first floor of my house and I heard a noise upstairs, but again, it was a downtown area. So I didn't really think much of it. Someone actually broke in from the balcony of my second level and hid in my bedroom. Oh my God. True story. Yeah. So as I went upstairs a couple hours later at the top of the steps, there was a man standing there and I screamed at the top of my lungs. I had my cell phone in my hand. It was a flip phone at the time and I happened to be on the phone. He broke my phone in half. Oh my gosh. He turned me around and put his knee in my back and his hands around my neck and he need me to the ground. And then he pushed me down the steps and it was brick on each side. It was like a row home. So I went into the brick and he put me in the bathroom, took his belt off and put it around the outside of the door. And I heard the blinds on my front door shake and so I knew that he was gone and I basically had to sit in there forever or come out. Like I couldn't just stay there, right? But I had no phone. I had no one living with me. Oh my God. Sydney. I ran out the front of my home and in the road, a couple houses down, there was a man standing there and I was in my nightgown and I ran down and I grabbed his phone and I called 911. So when that happened, my whole world was rocked and there were detectives there all night and instantly I was like, okay, I'm going to be okay because the shock. So I went into work. I still like had it. I went into work the next day and I was in my office and I literally walked into the middle of the warehouse and I was like, I need a roommate. Yeah. I'm afraid to live alone and I need a roommate. My house was two bedroom and I was very independent. No one was going to push me out of my house. I was certain of that. I was going to sit there like come hell or high water. And there was a guy who hadn't worked there that long and he was like, actually, yeah, I can't stand where I live and I could totally move in. I'm like, when do you want to come? Let's go. So he's preparing to move in my house and I suddenly realized I can't stay in my house. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't eat. I bet you couldn't. Oh my gosh. Right. So I rented my home out like I got a tenant and then I rented another house the next neighborhood over. So this guy from my work moved in there to separate bedrooms. We lived two very different lives and I was angry that my independence was lost. I can imagine that. Like that really pissed me off because suddenly something was taking from me, you know, anyway, this guy was like 130 pounds more than me and over a foot taller. I was safe. And yeah, I dare somebody to screw with him, right? Yeah, he'll kick their ass. Amen. He was super calm, super collected, but there was something about him that it was like, if someone screws with me, I'm not really worried right now because he'll just take him out. And like I knew he was background checked because you worked in my brother. I knew the process. Right. I was an HR person. So, but you didn't know him super well. You said he was newer to the company. It was new and that was kind of great that I didn't know him because like there was no drama and we lived very different lives. We didn't do meals together. We didn't do roommate things like he did his life. I did my life. So I had the safety and security of like a big giant guy there. Yeah, but he didn't want to be in my business and frankly, I had a pretty active social life. Like I was out way too much. I drank way too much and thank the good Lord, I'm here because I did not always make good decisions, you know. And so there were nights that like if I came home and I was not in the state, he would literally make sure I got to my room and shut the door and leave. There was never a bound. Right. It was so wonderful. Listen to us. Oh. It's sad because it's like this should be bare minimum. We shouldn't be so impressed, but it is nice. Exactly. When you grow up really not expecting men to be that way, which I think a lot of us do sadly. Yeah. And so I went from being angry that my independence was gone, but then feeling like, oh, wow, this dude knows that I'm not going to deal with anything. And I was pretty tough in my own right. And so like I dare you to cross a line, but I never had to worry about that. I mean, you were also his HR. Right. I know. Honestly, I did ask if that was okay. Right. But it was almost like he was completely disinterested. Like he couldn't be bothered. He didn't care. He was, he was just glad he was there in his size. That's it. That's exactly it. So someone else, a big man going in and out of my home, because the first time they think the person that jumped me stopped me because my car was parked three blocks away and he stole my car. So they were like, we knew. To me, I'm like, I've got a big guy going in and out of my house now. Totally fine. He stole your car. Oh my God. It was three blocks away. Yeah. I am reminded on this show constantly how important it is for people, especially women, to be in control of their finances. It makes us safer. It gives us freedom. And one way to do that is to make sure your credit is in check. And Ava is a credit building app that's really, really helpful for that. Basically, it's designed to work really fast and help your credit score where it really matters. So your credit store can start climbing with almost no effort. Instead of a secured card that locks up a deposit and takes weeks, Ava can approve you in five minutes with up to $2,500 credit limit and no credit check. 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Now go get yourself good credit. So I felt safe, but we didn't really engage. And we lived very separate lives, never crossed a boundary, never made advances, never flirted. And he went on occasion just be like, I don't think that guy you went out with tonight was like the good guy. Like I just want to let you know. And he was right usually, you know, and he was consistent. He was respectful. He was predictable. He totally accepted me for whatever. I didn't feel like I had to be anything other than I was very easy conversation, very protected. And so one night I'm in my bedroom and he's in his bedroom. And this was like forever ago when we had match.com and I get a wink and it's from him. Oh my gosh. This is such a- Wait, and he knew it was you. Okay. It's a romance novel. Right? So I get this little wink and I immediately me, I'm like, dumbass, you know what I mean? Like whatever, right? But then it was kind of cute. And so we messaged back and forth a couple of times and then he asked to take me out to dinner. Were you like, this is weird? Or had you thought about him like this? I had not thought about him like that at all. And he had never seemed to have thought about you like that either, zero. And so when we messaged back and forth a little, it was just kind of like almost nice cordial conversation rather than like, hey, lock the door on your way out. You're just like people meeting each other in a different way, you know? So we went out to dinner and I remember sitting across from him at dinner being like, what is happening right now? So you all set this up on the app instead of just going to his bedroom being like, hey, you want to do it this way? Did you guys acknowledge it in the rooms at all? Negative. Wait, that's so funny. You were like two different rooms. So you guys were just living your own life under the same roof doing your own thing, but talking online to each other as if you didn't live together. Yeah. Did he like dress for the date, go outside and then knock on the door again? Like I'm imagining that. It was like, do you want to go to dinner like tomorrow? It was like two days later. But in between those two days, we just lived our normal life because I wasn't really thinking much of it. And I was just like, oh, this is cute. This is playful. This is funny. This is playful. Yes. And it was like, he's not going to cross any boundaries. I still wasn't worried about it. If the date didn't go well, who cared? He didn't give a crap about anything. Like he was just so chill that I'm like, okay, sure, this will be fun. Well, when we went out, like I was kind of like, I don't know if I'm ever going to get married. Like I was very independent and he looked at me and he was like, well, that's really a shame because like you deserve someone to love you. That's a good line. Right. And I'm like, that's kind of nice to hear. And so I started to see this different side of him. And I was like, he really does have a tender heart because he was saying things like some of them were lines, but some of them there was like a vulnerability in him coming out. So everything progressed very respectfully. When we kind of like, we're barely dating, I actually got sick with a stomach ulcer and I was in the bathroom one night and I'm growing up and I panic because I think I'm throwing up blood. It was red jello. Anyway. Oh no. But I was like, oh my God, I'm throwing up blood and I called him in because I'm like something gonna die and he came in and he like, did it make fun of me? Like he kind of, he was like, oh, I think you're okay. Like I think it's right. But I looked back and I'm like, that was totally a moment when I anyway, when we were dating, if I went to bed at night, he would sit outside of my bedroom door and talk to me. Wait, what? Never crossed a line. Oh, never. Okay. So like he would sit on the floor outside of my room and my door would be open and I'd be in bed and we would like talk like that and then he would tell me goodnight and go to bed. Okay. Totally respectful. Totally calm. What's going through your head as this develops? I just was kind of like, it's really nice that he's not all that. He wasn't out to get something he, it seemed very like if it worked, it worked. It worked. And if it didn't, it didn't. I felt no pressure and I genuinely was like, I think I kind of dig him. Like I remember the first time he held my hand being like, I'm holding his hand. Like how do I feel about that? Oh, I think that feels good. You know, like it was stuff like that. It was just very easy and very comfortable. So fast forward. We get engaged like year and a half. Wait, wait, wait, no, don't fast forward that fast. Yeah. Like we dated everything was normal and fine. There was zero flags. There was zero flags. Zero flags. Like fall in love. When does he come? Like he comes into the bedroom eventually. Like, yeah, when do I start? Yeah. Yeah. Like you don't have to tell us everything, but obviously like everything progresses. Everything gets more physical. We start talking about later in life. We start talking about things. And so he proposes and we get engaged and we're like, you're still working together and living together. Yeah. That's a lot. Actually at that point, I had left the company and I was working somewhere else. Okay. Were you surprised at the progression? Knowing that like, like, was there ever a time when you were like, well, this was bound to happen or was it all just a surprise? I think I just felt very even. Okay. So you just felt good about it. Like there was never any solid. Like I never grew up feeling solid. Right. And I always grew up with like this hostility. Things were high. Things were low. Thanks for this. And I knew with him, there is no anything. He didn't care if I went out with friends. He didn't care if I stayed home and read a book. He read a lot. Oh man. I mean, he was just. He was to you. Yeah. So balanced. But there was this edge to him that was also kind of hot and that was fun. And so I felt no pressure. It was almost like, you know, like the, like the hard guy that's always going to protect you, but he didn't have the big ego that went with it. He seriously didn't give a shit if people liked him and I loved that. My mom actually at one point called him the gentle giant. I was going to ask you, what did family think of him? What did your friends think of him? I mean, my best friend was like, this is the greatest thing ever. My family didn't really, I think some of them felt like she can do better. I think some of them thought I could have had a more professional whatever, but anybody I knew, like I did not care. I did not want the guy at the party that needed to like him. I didn't give a shit. I just wanted peace. It was so easy. And we talked about politics. We talked like we just talked. Sometimes we just talk and talk and talk. So for me, it wasn't all of the wonderful butterflies. It was a very peaceful calm. And I didn't have to be anything for anyone else other than me. So we get married and about six months later I get pregnant. That was in tandem. And a little after like, basically they were like wait six months and then you can get pregnant again because I didn't see section. And so right away I got pregnant again. And this was the plan. Like I wanted to be a mom. He knew I'd be a great mom. And I was like, let's have babies. And you guys still continue to get along well. And he was still the protector zero fights, zero arguments. Okay. Wow. zero tension. It was so easy. It was so easy. And when we got married at our wedding, he bawled his eyes out. I mean, bawled his eyes out was coming down the aisle. And so I started to see real emotion in him that I hadn't seen. And I was like, he loves me. And at one point, his dad actually came to me and was like, if he doesn't marry you, he's never going to get married. You know what I mean? Like you, there's no one that's better. And I felt like he was really just right for me. There was an ease. He listened when I talked. And so it was just very good. It was very easy. We had the babies. So have a girl now. Yep. And I'm staying at home. So he's going to work. I'm staying home. And I just felt very rooted in my faith and my family life. I absolutely took on everything that it was to be a mom and a homemaker. And I, I was so grateful. Like I didn't care. People thought I was crazy. I was me. And he supported me. But he was traveling a lot. And I started to feel like that wasn't what our family was supposed to be. Like I wanted this little bubble. Yep. Like I missed him. And so I was like, I think you need to consider a different company, same industry. He really, it was very niche. And he became really respected in that. And so we had a couple different states of options. And we ended up choosing the Midwest. And so we moved to the Midwest. And I was very grounded, very happy. He came in the door at night. There was dinner on the table. We did the kid thing. I was like the neighborhood mom, everybody would drop their kids off. Oh, I love that. And it was and I also didn't have a support system. So like there were no babysitters, but we didn't really care about going out that much. That's not what we did. We just kind of wanted to be together and do the normal things. So we really built this life of home. And I loved our home. And I loved our life. I met friends. So I had friends at church and they would do things, like go to barbecues and like go. And so we would get invited and he would never go. And he would just be like, I just get really anxious socially. I'm just not comfortable around people. And so I thought like, well, he's always been really quiet. He'd be like, I don't like small talk. I just don't, there's nothing wrong with them. But like, I don't really need to know them. That's for you. You guys had never been in a situation where you were around other folks before? Like, like this is new? Developing a friend base and getting to go out. I mean, we, I think were socially before just because we lived in a downtown area that was social. But as far as like developing friendships, you know, you meet those couples and you become friends. As that started building, he started saying this isn't for me. And so I was like, hmm, okay. So we had two girls and as they were getting older, like four and five, he really started to become depressed. And so I'm like, what's going on? And I just said one day, did something happen in your childhood? Like, was there something growing up? And he says, yes. And he tells me trauma that no one should have had to endure. And it was like instantly I knew it was bad. He didn't even say everything. But like, like I saw a pain in him. Yeah. So I, he was my husband. Mm hmm. And I wanted to help him heal. So I learned everything possible I could about trauma in men. Everything. I read the books. I talked to people. I was just like, we're going to deal with us. And I got you, you're part of, you're going to be there for all like you're my partner, we're in this together. You don't need to be the strong one anymore. I've got us. You had me when I was in a hard time. I've got you now. I don't care if you cry, I don't care if you break down, I don't care what you need to do. I've got us. We're going to get through this. Oh, that is depression starts to spiral. And one day I got a text message from him, and I just knew he was going to take his life. No. And so I drove him to a mental health facility, like I went home and I was like, you need to get in the car. I dropped the kids off the neighbor, and I drove him in for an evaluation and they immediately admitted him. He didn't really want to go, but he knew he had to go. It was almost like, well, damn, I didn't kill myself. I guess this is what I have to do. Right. It wasn't like I want help. But when we got there, they admitted him right away. And I don't know if you've ever kind of been through this, but they like take your shoelaces, like all of this, and you have to give them to the person that. So he gives me all of his things. And one of them was his iPad. And he paid all of our bills. Like when I tell you it was serious living like 1950, it was, and I was like, Oh, I've got to do the things that I used to do when I was independent. Like here we go back in this role. So I go home. I knew he was going to be there, but I didn't know how long. And a few days later, I log into his iPad with information he gave me to pay our bills. And there's an email account that I don't recognize. So I'm like, what in the world is this? So then I start seeing this was back in Craigslist time ads where he's soliciting women. Oh, no, what did they say? I mean, like people that were advertising that they were sex workers and he was messaging them to meet up. And so I'm like, Oh, God, I think he's living this double life. Oh my God. So I go down the street and I take the girls to my neighbor's house. And I come home and I completely collapse on my kitchen floor. Like complete disorientation. Total emotional shock. I'm thinking to myself, I picked the boring one. I picked the one that didn't care about picking up women. You lived with him from day one. Like you would have seen it seems like correct. You lived with him. I worked with him. And when travel came at work, the guys that he traveled with again, they were like my brothers, none of them had one of them would have come to me and been like, just so you know, he and being loyal. Totally. There was none of that. There was none of that. So who is this guy? Right. I'm a broken record when I talk about how important it is for women, all people, but especially women, to be on top of their finances gives you autonomy and freedom. But it's really hard to actually get there. I think I often will feel motivated to get my money in check. But then the actual practice is not as fun as it feels. It's like you want it to just happen overnight. But really, it's a long process. And that's why I use an app called Monarch. It's an all in one personal finance tool designed to just make your life easier. So it brings all of my finances, budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth, future planning. It's all in one dashboard. You can go on your phone or your laptop. And I just feel so much more aware and in control of what's going on with my money. And I feel like I'm doing a lot less like doggy paddling and a lot more planning, if that makes sense. And unlike most other personal finance apps, Monarch is built to make you proactive, not just reactive. So set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code datingdetectives at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at Monarch.com with code datingdetectives. So I called the hospital that he was at. And I said, I need to talk to his nurse. And I tell them, I just found this. And I know trauma can bring behaviors. And I don't know what to do. And she was pretty much like, this isn't because of that, honey. Like this is not people come in here for other traumas, and they don't go and cheat on their wives just so you know, like she was real straight with me. But I'm like, but he, this isn't who he is. So she goes, how about we, we set a room up here, you can come and confront him here, and we will have two people by the door. And this would be a safe place for you to confront him, whatever he reacts, you don't have to worry about, you can walk away when you want to, and it was safe. So I went up, and I sat at a table across from him, and I confronted him. He was somewhat unfazed. And he was just like, I know it's wrong, but it's all online. This is just some fantasy life that I live. This isn't anything I've actually done. And but I'm sorry. And I know what's wrong. And I won't anymore. And he's like, I, I never met up with anyone. I never like, because in the manner of which he was so unfazed, it was almost like, it wasn't even like, Oh, I caught him. Yeah. It was like, not like he's not freaking out. So why should I? So I apologize, he said that wouldn't happen again. I'm like, okay, maybe again, he isn't that guy. Maybe he's not cheating on me. I don't know. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna stay, we're gonna fix this relationship. Again, I like, about trauma, learn about diction, learn about recovery. I'm talking to his therapist meeting with his therapist. We have a marriage counselor. I'm talking to support people at church. So this pattern kind of form is like, I discover something. I confront him. There's a little bit of improvement, which wasn't really, he would just set up another account somewhere else. And this is the same thing you're discovering or other things? Same thing. It's all around this same kind of behavior. Solisting another way map, but Craigslist solicitation. Yeah. And I mean, it wasn't like, let me get to know you. It was not, it was hookup sites. Wow. How much are you reading of these? Are you just, you see it, you throw the phone, you don't even want to look or are you digesting it? There was a whole lot of exchange. You know what I mean? Like if someone posted an ad on Craigslist, they were available for something and he emailed them and then they replied back, that would be it. Do you know what I mean? So I don't know if after the email, he would switch to his phone, like I don't know. But I read what I could and I noticed during each phase of discovery, there was a never an offering of information. So if everything you find out, you know, there's always more. Do you know what I mean? Like everything I know I've caught, let's not be dumb. So I would take it all to his therapist. I'd be like, hey, here's what's happening now. Like I wasn't in La La Land. I was dealing with it. And this counselor that was working with us, she was like, okay, let's learn how to get through this if we're going to. And I honestly, like my friends are still like, you need to be a PI. I basically learned everything. I mean, I was pretty good detective a long time ago, considering it wasn't, and this was not my thing, but I never had to like hack anything. Like I would be like, oh, he uses this device and I have access to this device. And so like, right? So it's just research or, hey, I'll make up an account. And he won't know it's me. And I'll kind of say, you are a PI. I just started finding what I needed to find to the point where when he denied something, I could be like, actually, no, that's why. And I was trying to figure out how much he was really lying. Yeah. So it was, you know, we're talking to this marriage therapist. And it's like, I mean, he could have laughed me. He didn't. And he was so unfazed by each, he didn't react the way a normal guy would. He wasn't outraged. He wasn't trying to get me back. He was just like, I know it's problem. Like I'm, it's not serious. Like I'm trying anyway. So there's this thing of like, he's always been a little different. And maybe there's something else going on, mentally or whatever. So maybe he should go get evaluations. Maybe there is something. So we find out he's on the autism spectrum. He was super bright. He was very smart and quirky, but it explained his lack of social engagement. Like a lot of things start to become explained. So suddenly his behavior is not like, Oh, I'm chasing after these things. It's, these are compulsions. These are special interests. Nope. People are not just going to cheat. We know that now. But I mean, I was going to ask if he was also playing into his depression in terms of his reaction to everything. No, he never really used that. And it was, that was part of why, I mean, when I tell you he had good therapist fold, he had good therapist fold. He really did. So I, I either have, I can look at like the medical documentation in front of me that says like, he has this and deal with us and learn this, or I can be like, Oh, it's a bunch of crap. And I'm not, but it was there in my face. And so I'm like, I have an obligation to learn about what this means. This is how it felt at one point. I was a caretaker for a sick man. That's what I described it as. At one point I resigned myself to like, I have this mentally ill husband. I will, this is my life. I am a caretaker to a sick man. And I just accepted that. And so I grieved a romantic partner. And I mean, if he had cancer, I wouldn't leave. I actually said that to a friend. If he had cancer, I wouldn't leave. So we bring this to the marriage counselor and she starts talking about a neurotypical and a neurodiverse couple and what it means and how his behavior is wrong. But this unhealthy behavior developed over time. He's now kind of gone to this thing. And it's breaking patterns and it's breaking habits. And so I'm trying to adapt and stabilize the family. He's now on other medication for depression. He's like, I want to talk to some of my family members about this trauma. He begins like, he's going to like confess things. I'm like, we're moving. Okay, we're moving. This is moving. So I'm doing the work. And I mean, when his behavior would be off, I knew to snoop. And so I found out this was not a new thing. This was something that had been going on before me. Really? Yeah. How did you find that out? Because I started going back through old messages of his from his accounts that he had given me the passwords to. Okay, so this is something he just does. That's interesting because I wonder if doing it for so long almost makes him feel like it's not something it's like compartmentalized. 100%. That's, yeah, you'll hear it. It's kind of crazy. So as it would be like, oh, his behavior is stopped, but he spent a whole lot of time out in the yard or whatever. Well, what is he doing out there the whole time? You know what I mean? And so one day I just looked in his bag from work and I found another phone. You know, what the hell? And how long is this period from when he? So this is going on probably like a year and a half. Oh my gosh. And so one day I went to him and I was just like, I need to know. I need you to tell me if you have ever been with these women. Because at this point, I have no proof that there was anything physical. The emails only stated that there was an interaction, not what the interaction was. There was never a post. You know what I mean? It was like, oh, right? So I had no proof that he. But were they ever saying like, I want to meet up with you on this day? Yes, but then there was nothing after it. So it would seem like it, but I didn't have proof. And I'm not going to fight something that someone can fight that I'm not going to go to until I know. Yeah, you can't bring a knife to a gun fight. Like you got to have all your shit together. And I knew he had no, like he was just going to answer me the way he wanted to. It wasn't like there was any conviction in him. So even confronting him wouldn't give you the answers if he wants to say no, you need proof. Correct. So we played this game for a while until I was like, I think he's just kind of full of shit. And so there's these websites that are kind of like Yelp, but not for like Chinese restaurant. And people leave reviews for sex workers. Wow. I did not know that it exists. Oh my gosh. And so I see his reviews and I start freaking out. Wait, his reviews of them? How many reviews had he left? How many reviews? So I found five or six and here was the kicker. It would sometimes say like, oh, I was here. I met with her on Friday afternoon or whatever. And so I would go back and look and be like, Oh, that day he wasn't at his office or and he, he did travel a little bit. So I would see the cities he was in and I'd be like, Oh shit, that really happened because that's why he left a day early. So I started realizing his three day trips were really five day trips, which is why no one at work ever knew he was doing this because he left a day before and a day after because so the extent to which this was going on. So then I peeled the layers back more and I was literally looking at the calendar. What city was he at? What city can I look for a review in? Right? It's sort of like when you go on group on and you can look by city. So like I was looking at geographic areas at certain times. And yes, like when I was pregnant with one of our kids from six, seven years before. Yes. So what kept you from getting up and taking the girls and walking out the door? Because you had no support. I had no job. I had no family there. Oh God. Yep. And people don't remember that it's not as easy as up and up and out. All I knew was that my girls could never be with him. And I was not in a place where I could say I can handle them by myself. And I didn't have people there. So I just stayed very even. That's all I can tell you. I just was like, if I'm doing this, I'm not going to be crazy. I'm not going to let this consume me. I'm not like I'm going to deal with this. So I would print out all of his crap and then I would keep it a little folder and I would go to him. And so one day I sat down across the dining room table and I said, I need you to tell me if you've ever touched anyone. Like I need to know what happened. Now, I knew, I knew at the time, but now I was playing his game. And I mean, he looked at me as calm as could be. And he's like, I don't know why you're still asking this. I have told you. It's all online, blah, blah, blah. So I whip out my folder and I'm like, bam, she got receipts. I got lines. So I'm like, game over now. Now he's going to like be mad. Now he's going to, he didn't give a shit. He felt no emotion. He didn't care. There was no reaction. He was just like, okay. Well, I mean, okay, why'd you even ask me? And how did you feel hearing that? Did you want him to get angry? I would. I don't know that I wanted him to get angry. I think I wanted him to realize the ball was in my court. Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. And so what I said is, I'm not going to ask you anything going forward, but know that I'm not done looking. And so if you're going to do your thing, I'm going to do my thing. And I'm not afraid. And I'm going to get it all. Oh, my God. That's when things started to get a little ugly. We're now, we're now in COVID. Oh, no. It's real hard to hide addictions in COVID. So then you start to see, holy crap. The whole thing I thought was fine is really, he just didn't care because who can look at their wife in the face when she's telling you, I was literally like, I will not be okay if I don't know what happened. If you tell me what happened, I can do this. But like, I will not be okay if you don't tell me. I need you to tell me. Lied, I pulled it out. He could have given two crabs. He didn't care. It was like, I mean, why did you even ask? That hurts. Because he genuinely felt like the right thing to do was to lie, but then he didn't care. But then when you said I have proof, he's like, okay, fine. I'm not sure if he's thinking about right and wrong. I have a feeling he's not empathizing at all. That's so funny that you say that because when we were at the table that day and I pulled it out and I was like, I don't know how you can do this. He was like, just because I do something you don't like, it doesn't make it bad. There's good and bad right and wrong. And like you have your morals and you have your values, but they don't have to be the ones I live by. And I'm like, well, actually, if you married me, they do. Yeah, actually, that's kind of the whole thing with the bows and the signing of the paper. And he knew me. Like he knew this is not something I would have been okay with. And so I asked him, like, why did you marry me? And I really meant that. You know what I mean? Like you didn't have to. I wasn't pregnant. Why did you do this? If you knew I would never be okay with it? And he was so calm and he goes, it had nothing to do with you. You're never supposed to find out. What literally was like, I didn't do anything to you. What I did with someone else has nothing to do with you. Our marriage was great until you found out. So your fault. We didn't fight. Everything was fine. This didn't impact our marriage. You not liking it impacts our marriage. But just because you don't like something, it doesn't make it wrong. And now I'm in this whole crazy shit storm of mental that I'm like, what am I dealing with? Yeah, yeah, no, that would really mess with me. That's not like a normal response. Correct. It is not. It is not a normal response. And that's what I began. That's what began coming up in therapy. Like I would say that I was like, I'm actually starting to get a little afraid. This is not that's not be normal. Like, who who let someone live their life knowing they're living a total other like, why did he think this was okay? He's like, I mean, this is this I've been doing this for decades. Not about you. It's about this is just what I do. So you said you'd done a lot of research and you're in therapy and it's we're not therapists and sometimes diagnoses aren't like necessary or even helpful. But I'm curious at this point, were you like looking at the he's a sociopath? Yeah, I mean, he's a so yeah, at this point, I think I think he's a sociopath. Like, now we have now we're in a different level. But again, we're also in COVID. And you're stuck together. I'm stuck. It's stuck. It's not a good time to start COVID with I just found out my husband of seven years, eight years, how long it had been at that point? Like seven years. Yeah. Cool. Wow. I loved that for you. Right. It was terrifying, because it was very creepy, because it's like, how did I share a bed with someone that it was very scary, because you don't know what someone's capable of when you realize they're capable of that. Yes. Because there was no red flags. He intentionally built two separate lives and it was like, I never saw porn on anything with him. I never saw like any indication of what he would do any indication. And that was intentional because he had to go to great lengths to hide it. There were no red flags. Like when I tell you he was not the charmer, he was not he was not out to like get women's attention, get women's phone numbers. There was no, there was no thing. Yeah. There was no like, oh, well, yeah, this is a player. Oh, no, he was not a player. He was not a player. I mean, I think it was just like, how is this my life? What is going on? Right? Like what is happening in my life? So like he starts getting angry. Now the temper comes out. Like one day he threw something across the room. When you throw something across the room and you're that big, it's kind of creepy. Right? It's like a different level. Oh my god. And one day I confronted him and instead of saying anything back, like now he's pissed. Now he's pissed because this has nothing to do with you. This is not your business. Shut the hell up. This is my life. Leave me alone. What are you going to do about it? Like that's what I was now dealing with. And so I'd be like, I'm not going to take this. And he's like, well, what are you going to do? Right? You have no job. You have no family here. And at this point, I was actually in college, like I went back to college. I was in college online and I was getting another degree and doing things. I had a life before him. You know what I mean? I was successful before him. And so I knew I was living right and I was taking steps, but like my little part-time 10 hour a week gig was not enough. So literally to him, it was like, what are you going to do? Okay, you don't like it. What are you going to do? At one point he was like, if you would just shut the hell up, everything would be fine. This is a problem because you have a problem. This is kind of archaic. And I have this moment when talking to the counselor who began using the word abuse and she was in these things. And I went, oh my God, like, wait, first, first he moved me away. Then he became a stay-at-home mom. And all of these things were looking like they were for me. I want to be home more. I don't want to travel as much. I want you to be able to take care of the kids. Oh my God. So you have to make it their idea if you want somebody to go along with something. They want, you want to do it for them. I think there was a part of him that really was telling himself he was doing great things. He was just a good husband because he was letting me, because again, his behavior had nothing to do with me. So I was thinking about like, where did this all go wrong? And in my head, I kept going back to it never went wrong. This is how he always lived. Like, reconciling that was probably one of the hardest things. So I'm upstairs one day with the girls and I went in the bedroom and I confronted him and I was like, okay, so clearly this hasn't stopped. This is continuing on and you need to take your shit and get out. And I don't care where you go, but you need to leave. And he started getting angry and I was getting afraid. And I was like, I already packed a bag. It's in the garage. Go. You're leaving now where I'm calling the police because you're scary and you broke and shit. And now I'm done with it. He walks downstairs and as he's leaving, I heard what sounded like a freight train coming through the house. He ripped the door, the steel door that goes to the garage from the house. He ripped it off the hinges. Oh my God. He is a strong boy. Incredible Hawk. So when that happens, I don't know what he did. So I come flying down the steps and I've got the girls. I don't know the steps and I'll grab them and he's screaming like you need to take your shit and get the fuck out. Like you should have packed your bag. I'm not going anywhere. This is my home. And the minute he said this is my home, I realized like, well, yeah, it's our home, but it is just his name. So I called the bank and I was like, I used to own my own home. I used to have a job and now I'm working part-time and I have my stuff. But like, I haven't had anything in my name in seven or eight years. I need to build my credit. Like, what do I do? They were great. Like the one was like, go buy a car. Buy a car for like $6,000. Get a loan in your name. We set up a separate account. Like this lady from the bank, I hardly had to say anything. I was like, I need to get things in my name. I need to get my ducks in a row because again, we're in COVID. They know people are going through shit. So I start kind of establishing myself financially and tucking away things. So, you know, I did like get my, like I earned a master's and I just kept going and building my credit. And then one day he has this complete come to Jesus. He is ready to change his life. He is going to admit all the things. He is going to tell, he is going to go to the counselor and say like, I know that I've been doing this wrong. The counselor had brought up the word abuse to me at this point. She had, this is actually abusive. This is abusive behavior and I'd be like, whatever. You know, he's crazy. I'm not being abused. That's how I saw it. Accepting that you're being abused almost feels like you're accepting that you're a victim and it certainly sounds like that's not something you ever wanted to be, nor does anybody want to be. It's like very uncomfortable to be told like, you're a survivor. You're being abused. Yes. And I think there was a part of me that was like, he truly was a victim. Like I kept going back to his childhood and when I tell you, he truly was a victim. So like, yes, he did all this stuff. But I mean, frankly, I don't know how he got through some of what he did. So it wasn't that I felt sorry for him. It was just the fact was, you know what I mean? So I just, I dealt with therapists and I dealt with pastors and he had this whole like, okay, I'm changing, changing. And one of our daughters was very into animals at the time. They became kind of like emotional support for her. And we had discussed a moving to some property, getting a farm, whatever. And so he says, let's do it. I am a changed man. Let's buy the farm. That was the dumb move I made. But anyway, so we're now nearing the end of COVID. I believe he is a changed person. We put an offer on a farm. It's great. I mean, before we moved, we were packing stuff up and like he got my wedding gown out and he was like, try this on. And I try it on and he sent a picture to my mom and was like, look at how beautiful she is. He was a new man, new leaf turned over. Oh, we moved to the house about three weeks later, it ramps up like a bat out of hell. No, what happened? Oh God, he was angry. He didn't care when he came and went. He did. He wasn't going to answer to me. Like it was suddenly like, oh, shit. It never changed. It never, right? And I was like, what's going on? And he kind of smirked. I was like, well, what are you going to do about it? Like, you can't handle this on your own. Oh, my God. What are you going to do? Take this from the kids? Did he know that you were starting to make moves to be more financially independent? He did not really. I wonder if he like had an inkling or something because it sounds like maybe he was like, let me be what she needs me to be so I can trap her again. Well, he did. He did. I mean, his whole, and honestly, his whole thing was now he's got me in a bigger mortgage with more responsibility with a bigger home to take care of. Or guess what? I don't have neighbors right there. Oh, yeah. And isolation. Our daughters, their dream. What am I going to do? Take away from them? No. Oh, my God. So it was very much like he was super callous. Like, what are you going to do about it? There's nothing you can do about it unless you want to ruin this dream for the kids. They've already now survived COVID. You don't have family right here. You've gotten them this life and now you're going to rip it away. I can't believe you're going to do that to them. Oh, my God. So I find one of the agreements, agreements when he was like, come to Jesus moment was he would allow me to somewhat have financial control over the household budget. We agreed to that. So when we were getting the mortgage for this new home, he agreed that there would be an account. He like signed something like the counselor was like, let's make an agreement that there would be an account that the household expenses came from went into. He had no access to and a certain percentage of his paycheck would always go into that. And that gave me comfort and going like, even if he goes off the rails, I can handle this. And that was something not even up for debate. Like he was like, yes, I'll totally do this. We were in our house for probably three and a half months and I was cooking and all of a sudden he came in and he sat down at the counter and he was like, yeah, so that account, like he starts asking me questions about it. And I was like, I don't know, like, it's used for this. We don't have cards. And he was like, well, I just, you know, how much is in there? And I'm like, you can look at how much you put it. I wasn't thinking anything of it. And I was like, I don't know what you're asking. That's not, you don't have access to that. That was the agreement. And he just said, well, that's not working for me anymore. And I was like, no, no, I'm sorry, but you're not touching it. And he crossed his hands like, Thomas could be with his little smirk. And he's like, well, that, that's not working for me anymore. And I don't feel safe if you're going to control me financially and not let me to have access to my money. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't care if you don't feel safe. And he's like, that's weaponizing the therapy. 100%. So he calmly says, if you do not give me access to that account now, I'm going to walk in the other room and tell the girls we're getting divorced. And I said, well, go do what you got to do. Good for you. And he walked in the other room. And he's back down. And he said, I'm going to divorce your mom because she doesn't treat me like a grownup. How did that feel for you? Well, I walked in the room and I sat down. My girls and I had a very strong bond. And my one daughter was like, you're mean, like you're mean and no wonder mom doesn't treat you like a grownup. You act mean. Like she was like, it was very, very proud of her. Oh my gosh. And so he says he's going to leave. And where is he going to go? He doesn't know. And he looks her dead in the eyes. And he said, and I'm taking the dog. Well, what did she use for emotional support? The dog. So that's cruel. That's cruelty. Yeah. And that was really what did it for me of when I was like, this person would never be my friend. Why would they be my husband? Who does that to someone? So I said he had an ultimatum. He had to go check himself into an inpatient facility for a month. And I would consider any kind of conversation because at this point, I'm like, he's gone off the deep end. He's gone off the deep end. And you don't really want to divorce someone that's in the crazy state, right? Because you got to get them a little more calm because when they're off the rails, nothing good is going to happen. People don't get better when they divorce. They get worse. I don't want worse. That's when they're like, let me take the dog. Let me take their like either vindictive or unpredictable. I totally get it, especially given that he's the financial provider at this point. And I can play him a little now. Like I can, right? Because I've been a couple of years of practice of this with him. And so I'm like, look, I'm going to give you a month to go get your shit together. I called an inpatient facility. They had an opening right away. I bought him a plane ticket, sent him a plane the next day for a month there. He is of course acting there. Like he wants to change, but the same thing. Like the therapist are kind of seeing the same behavior because we would have like family meetings where I would have to get on. And he comes back. He's like angry. Like he came back and it was no different. It was no different. And I tell him one day, like, do you understand what this is doing to the kids? Do you understand what you're doing to your children? Like you, like he doesn't care. This is what he said. And I will never, I will never, he said they are collateral damage. Oh my God. He's never, never again would he see them again. That he, you are, if that's what you think of them, fuck you, they'll be fine. And if you would just shut up, everything would be fine. But now you've created this mess where, yeah, I guess they are getting hurt. What are you going to do? Split them up now, make them go back and forth. When he said that, I was like, he's a sociopath. Like what in the world is happening? Yeah. So I call the mental health facility because I had our attorney, whatever it is, over his records, and I asked them to release his records to me. And they're like, which bonds and I go everything. I want to read everything. And there's this note that a therapist wrote and said, yes, he has had childhood trauma. Yes, it was extreme. But instead of using all of the help and resources that have been offered to him, he continues to use it as an excuse to gaslight manipulate and abuse his wife and family. Yes, there it is. Summs it up. When I read that, I was like, here we go. Okay. So he alternates between this like eerie calm and this explosive rage. We're still in the home at the same time together because I need a plan now. Like I need a, what do we do next? Yeah. And I had some things gathered, but he would be super calm to wear your hairs, like standing up on your arms because you don't know what's going to happen to throwing a coffee mug across the room if you said something he didn't like. Oh my God. Yeah. And never hit me. But one day I look at him and I'm like, I swear it's like you just act like everyone be better off if I were dead and he goes what we would be. Oh my God. I mean, saying something like that. What? Why is he saying that? He didn't care about anyone but himself. Well, I think it's, I'm glad you mentioned like he didn't hit me because we talk about this a lot where we have a very clear picture of what abuse looks like, physical abuse specifically, and abuse takes so many different forms. It can be death by a thousand cuts. Last episode we talked about that. It can be repeatedly saying something like that. Like that is such emotional abuse to say that to you. Yeah. It was really bad and he was not okay. Like I was waiting for him to snap. So I took the girls and I went in one of their bedrooms and we closed the door and I was ready to talk to them. And I was like, we have to do something. I'm going to take you, he had family that lived in the state and that family knew what was going on. And I was like, I'm going to drive you to their house now. It was like 11 o'clock at night. Like mom's going to take you there. Mom's going to figure out what happens next. But like dad is not safe. Dad is not okay. I'm sorry. But like we have to do this. And they were like, okay, like they understood. And so I am in there calmly talking with them and I hear this little knock on the door. This is the part that still to this day makes my stomach turn. So I hear this like knock on the door and it was very, you know, faint and I was like, oh, we'll be out in a couple of minutes. We're just talking and he's like, well, I'm going to come in. No, you're not. No, no. And I said, no, we're just having a conversation. Like we'll be out soon. And he said, you're not going to talk to my kids without me. So my kids boy so calm. And he opened up the door and he walked in. And when he walked in, my one daughter went to work her closet, like to go into her closet and my other daughter kind of like went to go under the bed. Oh, like I grew up like that. And so I knew it wasn't the first time they've done that. Oh, I never like knew. Oh, I'm sorry. So he walked in the room and it was this moment where God was like, if you get out of this, you can never let them get in this again. Like I knew at that moment, he was capable of anything. And if we made it out, I could never be in that position again. So I like grabbed one and kind of like slowly intertoured the door. He had come and sat on the edge of the bed at that point. He was still super calm. And so I was waiting for him to low. I got the other one and I'm kind of moving her toward the door and he breaks out crying. Oh, bless tears shaking. I'm like, he is totally unstable. He's totally unstable. I get them downstairs. I get them in the car. I drive them to family's house. I drop them off. And family's like, why don't you stay here too? Because right, but I knew all of my evidence I had been collecting, he would go burn. Yeah. My year is a print, right? And so I have to go back home because this is it. That's my, that's my out. Yeah. I went back home and when I went back home, he was actually asleep and we had slept in different floors. I mean, where I'm in. And he took sleeping pills to sleep. And so I knew he was out cold. And I like locked that area where he was in like, I put the chair against the door like I did whatever I could. Yeah. And I mean, I didn't go to sleep, but I spent that night gathering everything. I got the fire safe out. I put papers in it. I put birth certificates, all of the kids stuff, everything I needed. I put in there and I filed a protective order. And I kept thinking, but he's never hit me. Yep. He's never hit me. He's never hit me. And there's even a question on there that says, has he ever been violent toward you and ready? Here's how blind we can be. I actually wrote no, because he might have thrown a door, but it didn't hit me. That's how in it you get. Yes. Because I'm thinking, but other women have been beat to a pulp either. No, he has some violent toward me. Yeah. That's why I wrote one page and I said, he is not mentally well. He is dealing with these things. I have evidence from a therapist saying he is going to continue this behavior. I was asking him to please leave the room. Please give us peace. He would not leave the room. And I was like, I just want peace for my daughters and I. He is terrorizing us. Like I don't know what to do, but I need help. And this was right around Christmas. So courts were closed for a couple of days because it was a weekend and a holiday. And when they reopened on that Monday, I get a call from them and they were like, does he own the home with you? And I said, yeah, and the lady goes, well, then I just want to let you know. It's not real common to make someone that owns a home leave. So if he does get removed, it might be for like six weeks. So you need a plan. Like I just want to let you know. And I'm like, okay, about two hours later, I get a text because the court can text you updates. And I open the account and it says they grant to the protective order for 12 months. No hearing. Wow. That's good. I had filed it as an emergency, like an expatriate order based upon his mental instability. I said that he'd been in a inpatient facility that we'd been in therapists. We've been counselors like he's ready to blow and I don't know what he's going to do. So when that happened, I knew it was bad. I was like, holy crap, they know it's bad. The court knows it's bad. And they just made this man leave his home for a year. Like that's not normal. So you feel like you really needed that kind of validation in order to even validate your own feelings. It's so real. So he files a motion to have the protective order removed. And of course, then I'm sick to my stomach. I'm like, yeah. And so I log on because everything's still virtual. So like COVID is ending, COVID's over, but over, but everything's still hadn't opened all the way. So judge logs on, I'm on. We're waiting for him, waiting for him, waiting for him. 15 minutes goes by and he doesn't show up. So they go on record and the guy's like, well, clearly, he's not real serious about dropping this. So it's in place. So we go off the record. And as we go off the record, the man's like, I just want to tell you, I have a background in mental health before I had a background in the law. He's like, I read your protective order three times and you're doing the right thing. You need to protect you and your kids. Oh, that validation. There was more validation. Yeah. From an unbiased source that sees it all. I think that's it. The courts see it all. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I was terrified to file for divorce. It took me probably six months because I just was like, I need him as calm. I need to be able to control the dialogue as much as possible. Were you living at the house still? Where was he? Where were you? I was. I was living at the house and the girls were with me. So if I over divorce, he makes me terrified. He's like, I will hire a nanny to raise the girls before you do. Ew. Well, that's how you know he's out of his right mind because what is obviously best for the children? Again, they're collateral damage, right? Crazy, right? This is what kept rain in my head like over and over. So I knew he would, I'd put nothing past him. They're collateral damage. He's got nothing to lose. Like he'll do anything he can to take me out. And so he had agreed in writing to give me a certain amount of years to buy him out of the house. And of course we go before the judge, virtual, and he changes that right then. He decides it's only six months. And if I want any more than that, he's going to go for weekends with kids. Oh my God. My attorney was like, it is wise to show that you are not trying to isolate them. And she was like, if we offer a weekend and I'm like, I can't offer a weekend, they cannot be there from Friday to Sunday, they will not be okay. Like you don't understand. And she goes, we really should offer like two overnight. I said offer two overnight, not consecutive, that I have to approve. And he signed it. Oh my gosh. He never asked for a single one. Are you serious? They really were just collateral. It was all about control. He wanted me terrified. He wanted me to believe I was going to lose the house. I mean, he would send me text messages and be like, you need to be realistic about this. You're never going to keep that. Wow. How, how, how, what are the, how are the girls? Like what, what is, what does their take on that? So like, I took this approach the minute he got removed from the home of like, this is not our shame. And this, I don't have to do this alone. And so I called the school where the girls were attending and I talked to their teachers and I was like, I need to let you know what's going on in our house. And I need you to let me know if my kids are not okay. Like I always believed in putting adults in their lives. I never made them feel like they had to keep it secret. I'm like, this is not your shame. This is not yours. He has a problem. He brought it in our home. He is not in our home anymore. We will not carry the shame. We will not live in a secret. I just had to face it. Otherwise, I was going to feel ashamed. So I told the teachers and I, you know, I didn't give them all the drop, but I just said like their, their dad's been removed from the home. I want you to know, in case they seem not okay, if you feel like they need a counselor, if you feel like it's okay, tell me whatever my children need. I, you know, this was a new neighbor, like a new area. Yeah. And you see them every day. So help me help my kids. And I told a woman that lived like the next street over. I had befriended her and I was like, you know, your kids are going to come over to my house and play. I need to tell you, there's no dad here. You know, we live in a place where everybody's like married, picket fence. I was like, I'm the single mom. And this is what we're going through. And she was amazing. So about family. Yeah. Yeah. So about a month later, I got an email from one of the girls kids that said how much of a difference they saw in her. She's taking risks. She's being brave. They're not afraid anymore. And I mean, they were never a problem in school. Like it's not like they, but they held back because they were afraid. Oh man. And when that was gone, they could let their light shine. And when I got that email, again, I just got full body chills. Oh my gosh. It was another confirmation. You know what I mean? Of this is what we need to do. And like I hated it was what we needed to do. So after a while, you know, the divorce happens and my girls would want to talk about it a lot. And I would always reframe the story. Like this is not your fault. His behavior is about him. I would say like, I'm pretty awesome. I don't know why he did this to me. He did it to me. He did it to you as nothing to do with us. Right. I kept it very like this is when people choose something, it's always about them. It's not about you. Yeah. Yeah. We were not going to be victims. You're, it sounds like you're raising strong women. I'm trying. That's incredible. Thank you. So what advice would you give your daughters about protecting yourself from dogfish like this? Yeah, your education, because no one can take that from you. Have some sort of group, whether you're like volunteering or like, and I wasn't like big on college, right? I just know that that saved my life. So like get your educate, get something that like, if you're not going to have a job, have something else that's an endorsement. And so that's a degree. And then the next part is have a network of some kind volunteer somewhere, serve somewhere. So that way, if you need a job at some point, you can start telling people, Hey, I need work. This is going on. I need work. And if you have a network and you can do that, I mean, everything you touch is experience. So if you're a mom and you're like running a show at church, guess what, put it on a resume, you can still build a resume, you can do something once a month for three hours and it counts. Yes. Like put it all down and get some people in your corner, like, and they can be in your family's corner that if you need to go to them and say, I need you to make some phone calls because I need a job tomorrow. That is the thing. Be a mom, stay home, but keep the connections. Keep the kid. Don't isolate. Yeah. Keep the connections of who you are and what your gifts are and get something that people can't take, which to me is the degree. And that is, I think that's why abusers like to isolate their victims because they don't want them to have those connections. And so that's why it's important. Even if you, if you want to be a stay-at-home mom, at least you have a place to go if you do need to seek work, but it's, you know, you have someone there. And so it's that isolate and you don't realize you're being isolated most of the time. Oh no. Do you think that you're being given freedom to just love your children? Mm-hmm. Oh, so yeah. And so the advice that you would give to your daughters is the same. Like you could be a stay-at-home mom, just keep your connections, maintain your education. Under percent. You should always have credit in your name. That was one thing. Like I had such a good foundation, then I gave that up and I had to rebuild it because I didn't have anything in my name. So even if it's a cell phone, like keep something in your name that says you're a person with a social security number and you have a bank. Yeah. And I would say that's a red flag. He didn't push me to give up everything. I did willingly because I trusted him. But like if someone's kind of pushing you, let me just handle all this. No. That because someone should want you to be your own person too. Yes. Absolutely. That's really good advice. So I mean, he's made his whole life with his new family now. I was going to say, where is he now? Yeah. So let's, oh boy. I mean, he literally like this is how his children found out where he was. Like literally they just saw him one day and there were car seats in his car and he was like, oh yeah, moved in with her kids. No shit. Oh, not his kids, but someone so had kids and he moved in. He moved them. And even though he was dating someone, they didn't know he was dating someone. And that's how he revealed, Hey, I'm dating someone and her and her kids moved in. So that was really hard for the girls because part of why they were okay. It was like, well, he's not doing anything with anyone. He's just like, yeah, now it feels like we've been replaced. Well, yeah, because you don't have time with, right. So like that sucked. Oh, but again, it was sort of like, what do you expect? Why would we expect something better from someone bad? Yeah, once you shift expectations of certain people, a lot of healing can come. A lot of healing. I think that's like, once you see who they are, you can't unsee it. Yeah, you can't. There's no coming back. He was this way before me, like I still in my head. I'm like, what, like what in the world? Who does that? Right? Anyway, so you guys have this like catfish dogfish term. And so when I would listen to your show, I would tell my friend like, he's the jellyfish because he's like, slimy. I love it. Seems seems totally transparent because there's not much substance to him. Yes. But then there's like this sting. There's a stingy. Mm-hmm. And so that, that is what I have coined him as, as I think of, he's a jellyfish. Yeah. So real. The way that you fell in love too is so interesting and sad because it's nice to be able to come away from these stories and say, oh, we learned that we should take our time. We learned that we should maybe check in with our communities around them. And that there are stories where there's really, it's not like there's anything anybody can do. And I hope people don't blame themselves at any of these episodes because even if there are flags, the problem is that the jellyfish or the dogfish or the catfish is doing the behavior. That's the problem. We are not the problem. Now you see, Sydney, you seem like you've had it, like you kind of kept yourself together because you had to the whole time. Was there ever a time when you just like kind of lost it and broke down or were you just like, oh yeah, like the day when I walked the girls down to the neighbor's house and I laid on the kitchen floor that day I broke down. There were definitely, oh yeah, there were days that I threw up. I lost a ton of weight, but you know what I did? I kept working. I kept, and I remember at one point my boss was like, because no one ever knew about this. And then I said, I'm gonna miss work today because I have to go to the courthouse. Like that's how I told him, I have to pick up a protective order. And he was wonderful. And he said, what do you need? And I said, I need you to treat me like a professional because here that's what I can be. Don't ask me, how are you in this pathetic way? Ask me how I am. Like please let me be strong here because I have to have somewhere I'm strong because I have someone outside if you're telling me I'm not. So like keep end that. I will say like if I could, you are not just that. Like that is something in your life, but it will be gone. And the rest of your things are going to be what holds you together because sometimes I hear these stories and I'm like this man like totally sucked in there. No, don't give him any more space than he has to occupy because you're not just that. And that was my sanity. Like I did love him to my core. I did want to have a life with him. But when I knew no matter what I did, I couldn't. I decided what can be in my life. I can control my career. I can control my education. I can care for my children. I can control my health. This thing is a thing that's going to go away. Life was there before him and like good riddance. Thank you for my babies. Goodbye. Pretty much. You lost your privilege. That was your purpose in my life was to give me these beautiful children and well goodbye. Sayonara. Thank you so much. I have this beautiful gift. Goodbye. Yeah, you're amazing. I loved hearing your story. Thank you so much for sharing. It was incredible. And this guy. And thank your friend for connecting you to us because I hope some of these episodes have made you feel like, oh yeah. She's like you have to go on this show. And I was like, that is not, I don't do that. And she's like, no, you have to. Right. She's like, so I started listening. And then I heard a couple stories that I was like, well, that really resonates. And so I was talking to my best friend. She was like, you will save someone's life. Like you have to go tell this. It's a different story. We talk about that is the sense of community because you never know when what happened to you will save someone else. It's incredible. The experiences that people had have shared after hearing different guests. So thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you guys for doing this. I think it's very easy to become small when you're going through something like this. Yes. And I did become small. And I'm just at a place in my life where I'm not going to be small anymore. And I'm going to take up the space that I deserve. And so I was like, this is not airing dirty laundry. No, this is helping someone. So I feel like when you come out on the other side, like, don't be worn out. You have arrived. You have survived. Like go, you know, that's how I feel. I'm like, seriously, bring it. You have survived. You have arrived. Yes. Yes. That was highly educational. I'm obsessed with her. And I'm so proud of her. She's a baddie. Like she held it together. And I think it's that first of all, I think that's part of it. Mama's strength. Like the strongest and one thing I kind of said, but I'm thinking about it, just if someone's listening to this story in the middle of leaving an abuser and you're worried about how it's affecting your family and your kids, I just like hearing the way that her kids thrived after this horrible decision she had to make. Oh my God. I had full body chills. Full body chills. And it's just like there is, there is another side to it. And it could be the right thing. And as hard as it is in the middle of it, the hard thing was the right thing. And that is so powerful for anybody that maybe is in the middle, isn't quite there yet. You know? She is just, I think she is so rad. And I loved the advice that she was giving about how to, how you can still do the stay at home mom thing and raise your babies or do whatever you want to do and not allow yourself to be stuck there, which I thought was really empowering. And let's definitely talk about that because even, we weren't really recording, but we were talking about stay at home mom versus domestic engineer versus, you know, there's all these ways to think of that, that title because it is a full time job. Like you're working. And I think it's a, it's the right choice for so many people. How do we do that while still protecting ourselves? Because like she said, you should trust your partner. But it doesn't have to be about trust. You don't have to be like, oh, I just in case I end up on the dating detective someday. That's why I'm going to have my secret fund in case I need to leave. Yeah. It could also just be you don't know what's going to happen. Your partner could lose their job all of a sudden. Somebody could get sick or die or like knock on wood. I know, but it's just like we always have to have a plan. We always have to have a plan just in case, especially as parents. Yes, especially as parents because your babies are going to need your babies. Just imagine your kids need you fully and you need to be able to take care of them. And also when you, in order to do that, you have to maintain connections and to maintain those connections, you can't be isolated. So if you feel isolated to the point you're losing connections, that can be dangerous. So do your best to keep those connections that if you do need to get a job or you need some help, you have those connections there. The listing, just the specific advice she talked about for somebody who maybe isn't going to work in their relationship, like get your education because no one can take that away from you, networking and have people in your corner. I wrote down, just keep your resume updated, which people forget to do, but it's not a bad thing to do. Having a life outside of whatever it is that you do most of the time, a hobby, volunteering, something to build skills or contribute in that way, keep your name on things, have your credit. I mean, that's huge. Even if it's just the phone in your name, just keep keep that going. Also, I mean, like, don't maybe put the house in only one of your name. Yeah, so my husband actually, we got a VA loan for the house and he just did his name alone. And so his name is on the mortgage, but then he made sure, well, we both made sure, my name was on the official document for the house. So I'm on the house, but because it was the VA and it went through them and he'd whatever. So his name is on the mortgage, my name is on the house. So I am an owner in this house. Hell yeah. And I mean, how wonderful that he was like, obviously a good partner and wanted to do that with you. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Like, and if he demanded it, I'd be like, no, you're, why? Why? Well, yeah, the why is, I mean, it sounds like anytime he, he didn't do that going up, bleeding up to it. But after all hell broke loose, he just wanted control. But yeah, talk about how he didn't do red flag stuff. There was no red flag. He was such a good guy. There was nothing that concerned her. And if she hadn't found the, with his password, she might have never known. That's crazy to think about. And, and he could have continued living just being like, this is separate. This is completely separate, not part of our marriage. What people really will tell themselves anything to justify their actions. And I know that's like a human trait, but you still know right from wrong if you're a good person. And he, I mean, maybe he was associated with that. I mean, he blamed, we, I mean, it comes up mental health, being on the autism spectrum, none of those things are directly correlated to this kind of behavior by any means. And I think it does a real disservice to people when they are used as an excuse for this behavior. Yes. But also just the fact that he was never concerned or showed any concern about anything ever. And when she came to him with it, he was like, I didn't do that. And then she's like, yeah, you didn't, he's like, no, I didn't. And she's like, yeah, you did. Here's the proof. And he goes, Oh, well, if you didn't, if you didn't ask, so I didn't tell you like, what? It's so crazy. But I feel for her the feeling of, Oh, he's so level. And that's something I'm attracted to because it's stable. Yeah. But that was confused with some severe apathy. Yes, it was hard. Also, the fact that she said she felt like she was like his caretaker, like she, she felt, I think his trauma, she had a lot of empathy for. And I wanted to be so clear to people that just because somebody has trauma, you can have empathy for them and still recognize that their abuse is not justified. Yes. Absolutely. It's not your fault. It is your responsibility. It is your responsibility. And also, regardless of childhood past and traumas and all of that stuff, regardless of that, it wouldn't have made it okay in any stretch of the imagination, but it does help people kind of understand where you're coming from. And so I thought that was interesting that the therapist was like, yeah, that, that's not part of why he knows this. Yeah. I'm so glad that they were able to validate that for her. Yeah. She, and at the end, it sounds like she really did get the validation, but I'll be honest with you. She's a baddie. So I don't think she ever really needed a lot of validation. It's true. But even I validate myself. Good for you. She really did too. It's true. And I, but I think that's why it's so good to hear her story because she is the person who you're like, she's so strong. Like she doesn't need anything from anyone and she can still go through something like this. She is not the stereotype of somebody who's been abused. Absolutely. She said it best. I mean, she was like, I was doing really well on the paper when this was happening and that's what abuse can look like. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. But she's, I, I loved her attitude. I loved that she kept it, kept the cool for her daughters. I love that her daughters learned that from her. They, you know, they learned that. I mean, kids are already resilient, but it's helpful when you see your mom not freaking out and you feel more comfortable not freaking out. That's kind of nice, right? Totally. Well, oh, I, sorry, you just reminded me of something that I was thinking about. It's a little thing, but I think it's a big behavioral thing. Like he wasn't freaking out. So I think you said he's not freaking out. So why should I? And I was just thinking about how when you, you are acting freaked out, it just makes you look like the crazy one. And that's a way to kind of, they don't even have to say anything just by being calm. It gaslights you into thinking you're overreacting. Yes. You're absolutely right. That's such a good point. And there's, yes, that, that's a perfect description. Like if he stays calm, then she's the one, she lashes out. She's the one that looks crazy. And it's not always that way. But honestly, I'm thinking about the TV show, the Traders, like this latest season, the Trader was like real calm. And I think he made everybody else just be like, I guess I'm, I guess everything's fine, then. That was like his whole tactic. So interesting, interesting, something to think about. These, these stories always make me think about so much, which is why, I mean, follow us on social media, dating detectives podcast, but we do get to have more ongoing conversations on Patreon with y'all. And I think like truly I'm sometimes thinking about these stories months later and like, Oh my God, same revelation. Yes. So it's nice to have a group of people who I know are also thinking about them a lot. I know, right? Yeah. We have $5 a month. We want updates. Yeah, for real. And we do share updates when our guests can share them with us. And we definitely share them on Patreon when we can. So that's $5 a month for extra episodes. We meet on Zoom for book clubs sometimes we get to chat with everybody. You get early access to like merchant stuff. And then there's $9 a month with all of that, but free. No ads, baby. We love our Patreoners. So we have so much fun over there. So oh, and the new Patreon that's coming out the next one, it's a special kind of Patreon episode. Oh, I thought you were talking about like a new tier of our Patreon that I was like, no, I don't know what you were talking about. There is a new Patreon episode coming out that you guys have to hear. We have a guest and it's a little controversial. And I, I enjoyed this conversation. I think you guys will too. So if you're not, if you haven't joined Patreon, you probably will want to listen. Good time. This is a really good time. It was wild. Well, we love you guys so much. Thank you for listening and sharing with your friends. That's how we met Sydney. That's how we meet so many of you because I think connecting with each other helps in these scenarios. Network with each other. This sense of community and we appreciate you guys so much. So thank you for listening. Thank you for being here and sharing us and sharing with us. And we love you. And as always, trust your intuition.