S1E8: Charm Offensive

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. And my voice is a little scratchy today. Sorry about that. This isn't a recap show. It's more of a wide ranging roundtable discussion about the making of each episode. So I strongly recommend you watch the episode before you listen, because we'll be talking about everything in depth, full spoilers, etc. This podcast is about episode 108, entitled Charm Offensive, written by Johnny Gomez and directed by Melissa Bernstein. In this episode, Manusos continues his journey north from Panama in an ambulance, while Carol learns more about Xosia, a lot more. And there's a lot to talk about. So, without further ado, please welcome our guests, editor Skip McDonald. Hi there, Skip here. Executive producer Diane Mercer. Hello. The writer of this episode, Johnny Gomez. Hello. And the director of this episode, Melissa Bernstein. Hello. Hello. And also with us, of course, Nicholas Tsai on the ones and twos, the threes and fours, the ones and zeros, the wheels of steel. Hi there. Woo. We'll figure it out eventually. Yeah. That is his official title. Yeah. It's not the 6-7? Yeah. Oh. That's good. Very topical. Oh, no. You're dating us now. That's very topical. I just learned that the other day. Peek behind the curtain. The show just premiered a couple of days ago. Yesterday, technically. So, yeah. So, we're all feeling great. We're excited that this thing is finally out there. So, you all can see it. And today, we're talking about episode eight. Charm Offensive. Oh, yeah. So, Johnny, you wrote the script. Talk about your journey here. You came into the writer's room partway through the season, right? I did. I came into the writer's room after Peter Gould, who was... Heard of him. Heard of him. And I replaced him in the seat. But that's about it as far as I'm concerned, because Peter Gould is just incredible. And it's actually weirdly like a full circle moment for me, too, because I was in this room being interviewed by Peter Gould and Diane over here. when I was hired as the writer's PA like 11 years ago for Better Call Saul. And so now we're here doing a podcast, which is crazy. And Melissa and I also had that moment on set, like our first day of prep, just looking at each other, like, holy moly, this is crazy. What a journey. And the script was excellent, Johnny. Like what a gift it was to read that script. It's harrowing and it's funny and it's so emotional and such a great peek behind the curtain with these characters. it really sends the show in a completely new direction. I mean, we've gone a certain path up until episode seven. And then episode eight, all of a sudden, you start to learn who these people are and you start to question their motives a little bit and you start to fear for Carol a little bit more. And it's a really, really extraordinary script. Well, thank you so much. And I mean, for you, Melissa, having to navigate that on set with, you know, the script and the actors, and this is like, you know, Diana's saying, it is a departure from kind of where we've gone. What was that like for you kind of navigating the emotional journey and the emotional kind of maze that Carol was going on? Honestly, I just felt so lucky because the story felt so intimate. And so it felt like, you know, I had such few actors, you know, in our episode. I mean, we had our big crowd scene, which that's a lot of very talented background artists and people participating. But like in terms of our cast, it was a much smaller cast. So it just felt like such a special opportunity to really dig into the nuances of these relationships. And what I found challenging is the way the show is set up. There are these like new world orders that like, you know, and figuring that out one in Spanish when I'm not a Spanish speaking person, that was challenging. And then, you know, just the way that the humans behave in this show is like that's something to catch up to. And for Carolina, that character, too, is changing very much or adjusting in that episode. And that felt like a really complex and like fun challenge. I have to say you did such an incredible job I mean there were so many moments where it was just it was really intimate it's you and one actor you and two actors kind of navigating all this what was harder for you the scenes with just one or two people or the scene with 5,000 extras I'm definitely more concerned with all the background artists for me I felt you know I've known Ray so long I told her too it was just like I felt like I had a front row seat at watching her play all of these emotions and this story like she's just doing something I've never seen any other actor do it's just spectacular the range that she gets to play in the show so like that part of it was not stressful but you know having a arena full of human beings and with lots of help thank goodness but like that's just a lot of pressure because you don't want to waste people's time. Yeah. Who writes an arena full of people in there? Not me. Talk about that. How did that happen? In the script, it was something a little smaller scale. Yeah. Yeah. And when we talked about it in the room and I think in the writer's draft, it was still a high school gymnasium. We had kind of thought it was good. This is a first time for me where I think a director in production was like, let's go bigger. I feel like usually we're trying to pare it down. But for this, I mean, we went from that to an interior sports arena, sports complex, which was so cool. Yeah. I mean, it started to click like how this would work for this group in terms of how they're sharing their resources. And like just thinking through that aspect of it, that was really fun. And I felt like the location really suited that. Big shout out to Nito, who did an incredible job helping us figure out how to manage all those human beings and like how they might move and how the rhythm of that might play out. Like it was my first time working with a movement choreographer. And Nito himself is just like full of energy and passion and like really instigates ideas and nothing is good enough for him either. So that's great. It's really fun. He definitely fits in with the perfectionist crowd. And the other really important thing to note, too, is that, you know, that's typically a place where you would use visual effects and you would tile people and replicate people because you couldn't have the whole space be full. But in this case, it made so much more sense to just really fill it. And you can tell. I mean, like when you watch the scene, it plays completely differently because all those people are really there and they're really going about their, you know, nighttime routine. which this is the first time we learn that this is, I mean, it's, I love that moment in this show when she, I never asked you where you live, you know, like, it's just like, of course, you know, like how many people have been wondering that question all along and, and, you know, we finally get to answer it. And I, I mean, I'm sure at this point somebody has gotten ahead of it, but like, it was so surprising to me when I read it. I mean, it's just such a delightful moment. And we learn when we get there, you know they're funny like they have a sense of humor yeah you know I mean Zosha is joking with her and she's so charming and I mean I think we've talked many times during prep and from start to finish like this is a seduction episode I mean that's what this is you know they still have their biological imperative and this is this is the episode where you kind of go back and forth about what is compelling about what they are selling and can you trust them and what is really their motive and are they who they really say they are? I think we're right there with Carol, the entire episode, just kind of going back and forth. Yeah. And I think just globally, the way that Vince tends to approach story and of course the writers in conjunction with him, but about like unpacking the sort of minutiae and like day to day, you know, what an individual human, the questions they would be asking, like, you know, you never are zooming past something being like, oh, just accept this. It's like you get to hear in Carol's mouth the questions that you are wondering and get to see for yourself what's going on and make those judgments. I think that's so specific to the show and so specific to Vince. And one other shout out to give is Rich Sickler, who like I wouldn't have even thought of taking on a location like that or a number of actors or background artists like that without him, because he's just like such, I mean, he's an incredible assistant director, but like the way he works with a big crowd and rallies them and gets them excited about what they're doing and make sure they feel respected. We shot it over two days and like a lot of times people are like, oh, I had my experience and they don't show up the second day. We had like an insane number of people show back up because Rich made it fun for them and made them feel a part of it, which they very much were. Rich also kept it a family affair. His wife was one of the massage therapists and choreographed the massage therapy. Annie! Also, I'm reading that the key grip Jake's wife was doing the sound bowls. Yes. The sound bowls. Oh, the family affair. It's a family affair. There's so many great moments in this episode and visual moments too. So I like to talk about the observatory area, which I know is not an observatory in real life. Yeah, it's actually right next to the arena for the scene we were just talking about. I mean, it's just such an interesting, beautiful structure. And I honestly, I wasn't sure if Vince would go for it because like definitely in my history with Vince and Peter, there's always a lot of pushback about, well, does it make sense? And like you never want to just shoehorn something in because it cool But it was so cool that you know I think I went straight to Diane and I was like all right So what if it looked like this And like it was on a cliff and then there was an overlook. And like I started with Diane and she's like, I can see it. I think it's worth a shot. So then we showed pictures to Vince and Marshall Adams, who shot the show and did such a beautiful job with it. We worked on what a lighting concept would be for that because it's super cool. But like if it's at night, how are we showing it and how does that make sense within the paradigm of the show and the way they utilize resources? So we we really had to kind of think it through with the like logic of this particular world. Yeah, I just I love the way it looks. It's so neat. It's so striking. I mean, it's a gigantic piece of art in the middle of the scene as everything is happening. And that was, by the way, another thing that was scripted is like empty desert in the middle of the night. I think we had a joke in there at one point that was like, Marshall, please don't kill us. We don't know how we're going to light this. Please don't kill us. And we ended up with something so much better. Yeah. That location, too. It's like, I mean, how many years did we shoot in Albuquerque? And we've never seen it. I mean, it's just incredible to find something that special. And it is. It's like it's such a romantic little scene. And it really gives it so much more visual interest than it would have had if it was out in the desert. And I mean, and Marshall, oh, my God. He did such an amazing job shooting it. And a few days before we did it, he said to me, he's like, this terrifies me. I have never been so scared of shooting something because it's a gigantic reflective surface. That was our first day of 108. It was. Yeah. And in real life, it's an amphitheater, which is really beautiful. So if you're in Albuquerque, you should go see it and enjoy it. It's gorgeous. And remember that night it rained? It was like a night shoot. and then it like right before the sun went up we had a few more shots to get I think we hadn't gotten our drone piece yet maybe I think we had like tempt the drone piece they tested it but I don't know if they were filming yeah yeah I think that's right and the rain came and I was like oh my god we're dead we're not gonna get the rest of our shots and I'm just so panicked about it and then like the crew this amazing crew which is again why this show is gorgeous as it is and why everybody's in Albuquerque but like they're just like out there at 4 30 in the morning with brooms getting rid of the water that had accumulated during this rain that was like just one cloud above this structure like that's all it was there were no clouds anywhere else except for directly above us which seemed insane but like the crew just like they made and like blow dryers they just like made the rain go away and again they easily could have been like we're done now because it's 4 30 in the morning do you remember we had an astronomer like an astronomy tech there on the day and he looked up at that one cloud at one point and goes i've never seen that before he was below just one single rain cloud and it just i have i always say it's i think that the the universe or the whatever you believe in if there's a any kind of you know divine force that's out there they don't want us to make movies they really don't want us to to take you know to create this kind of artificial version of life and it's like nature goes to great lengths including a single solitary like charlie brown style rain cloud i think this would agree with you on that one well i heard i also i i saw that when vince arrived at the massage set which was at los poblanos in Albuquerque. And more rain. A bee stung him on the top of his head the second he got there. The moment he walked on set. Like literally he walked on set and that bee found him. Jeez. That's what I'm talking about. They don't. Nature is lining up their forces against us. And there was rain. We were remember we were stuck inside there too. Yeah. Which really messes up because the pool was like right there next to it. It was really. It was. Oh my goodness. You can't tell. I mean you really can't tell in either of those scenes it's incredible actually yeah that one we were i felt like we're gonna get through it but like the amphitheater situation that's and by the way that's not even the worst weather from that shoot there was worse wait when was the worst one the huboob the sandstorm that we were trying to film a news at the uh the underpass that's right there was like we had to and then we had to reshoot the part of him getting you know his shirt back on at the back of the ambulance, I think on set, we like just. Yes. Yeah. You guys had. Just for pieces to add some. Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely right. I totally blacked that out. I was like taking pictures of it because it was so crazy. It was wild. And that location we have seen before. Right. Yeah. And so at some point that's like it's definitely an overpass that we have used. Yeah. That's right. I mean, we've we between Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, we've we've hit up a lot of over underpasses. Yeah. Skip, I have to go back to episode two. Because there are two things. One, my favorite cut, I think, in the whole first season is in episode two, when Carol learns that her outburst killed a bunch of people. Yeah, that's good. And she leans down to vomit again, and then hard cut to pickaxe, like, into the ground. That's chef's kiss. Thank you. I absolutely love not a chef that has the virus and kisses you and turns you into one of them. I love that. Did you find that or how constructed was that? Well, like as far as Vince's homework, it took us a little while. No, that wasn't in Vince's homework. That was something we were just trying to trim things down. Oh, not in Vince's homework. Oh, my God. Well, not the tie into those two pieces. And then we were just working at it and it was like, OK, I think I just got lucky with making that cut. But it really works well. I love it. And the other one also in that episode, and we talked about it on the podcast, is the lunch scene. where all of the assembled English speakers and their families. Do you remember how many hours of dailies there were? Oh, God. I think there was like 18 or 20 hours worth of dailies. I think it was more than 20. There might have been. I don't remember. Well, it's a very long scene. This isn't even a question other than how hard is it to do that. And also with Vince's effort to not reuse shots, there's so many people you have to be tracking everybody. and the sun is changing, which is, I mean, unbelievable that that was able to maintain continuity. What I said is that you could teach like a masterclass in editing of that sequence, just because it never feels labored. I know exactly where everybody is and I'm following everybody's perspective, but ultimately the sort of super perspective being Carol. Yeah. How do you approach something that massive? It's very time consuming. It probably took me three days to watch all of the footage just and to remember what it was and what pieces we could use. And then just to watch it, just to watch it. Yeah, that's before you even cut a frame. It's just watching it, understanding it. And then you slowly start to piece it together and you try something and you try something again, undo things. It was a big scene and it took days to get through that. Then we get Vince in there and he does his magic to it too. But I think the getting the foundation first was the toughest part. And then once we got that, then it was a little easier to find the moments that we wanted to make them work and remember where everybody was. And then we'd get the little pieces like when Carol says, here's to you. And then Octone Bayar. He toasted with her where everybody else thinks she's crazy. Right. It was just kind of a fun moment. I love that moment. I also love his coming down the stairs of Air Force One. This plane has an upstairs. There's an upstairs. Yeah, I love that. But yeah, since you're here on the podcast, I just had to mention that that sequence is insane. Some other huge productions in very memorable locations. And I think one of my favorite scenes in this episode, the scene at the diner. Talk about finding that. And it had to be pretty much remodeled, right? I mean, it was like defunct business. Yeah, it used to be a barbecue place. That was actually very good. I was sad it was gone. Denise Pizzini in her brilliance, just we looked at it and it was going to take so much. And she was like, I'm in, I'll do it. I'll figure it out. And she made it like different booths around the counter. The seats were different. The ceiling was different. She did so much to it. And that team did it. And Steve, they made it happen. And they did it so fast. It was insane. It was challenging. We had a like a yoga class going across the way. It was like, you know, and intermittent traffic control on that central ave. It's one of the busiest streets in Albuquerque. Like it required so much coordination and commitment and everybody like made that happen. And I just loved it. I mean, it's definitely like the kind of conventional diner. And that's what I loved about it. Like it felt so normal. Didn't it feel familiar? Like you walked in here, like, I feel like I've been, I know they built this over the last two days, but I feel like I've been here before. Which kind of mirrors what's happening in the scene in the episode where she's like, this is so comforting. And wait a second. And it's all for her. It's all been constructed for her as it's all been constructed for you and, you know, for the production. And there's so many great details. There's like a newspaper stand out there and people walking on the streets and like what the others did for Carol in that scene is really amazing. Like just the chatter and the money. They're using money, you know, to pay their checks. Right. Like, I mean, they're just they really committed to this gift for her. And it's actually quite moving. But then, you know, with Carol having that revelation in the middle of it, I mean, just the way that Ray brought that to life was, I think, incredible. Because it like her like enjoying it and then realizing what that means And then how does it feel to be the outsider in that scenario And is this a manipulation And the kind of manipulation that as a writer she grown so opposed to I loved seeing those wheels turning in her. And yeah, it felt like the right setting for that. We talked about it in the room, and I remember we were exactly asking that, like, is this, you know, too much of a production, too much of a whatever? And what we came to was, Diabate has been having them do this for months, like having them play act, having them play characters with chips, with everything else and doing all this. So like weirdly, they've had months of practice putting on a little piece of reality, a little piece of the old world. And so for this was like almost nothing for them. I like to imagine that Diabate every day. It's some other movie, a different movie. He's cosplaying some of another one of his favorite films and he's the main character in all of them. Definitely. I think that's a good chance that's happening. I want to see Diabate in Ocean's Eleven. Oh, yes. He does that on Wednesdays. Yeah, okay. All right. Talk a little bit also about the croquet scene. Yeah, I mean, that was really fun. That was... I heard you knew the most about croquet of anybody, Melissa. Yeah, that's what I hear. I mean, I grew up... That's what Trina said. I don't know if that's true, but I grew up playing... My family's from sort of a rural area in Virginia, but like something we would always do on holidays is play croquet at my grandmother's house. So like I did have a sense of the game, but I will say Maddie and like in props, he had to like go learn it like exactly how the rules are and then teach both Ray and Carolina how to do it. Because they didn't know, right? And people were watching videos. Yeah, there were videos, there was practice. And then we also knew that we weren't going to be able to capture carolina's like nailing it in one so we also had to figure out you know some workaround visual effect magic set ourself up to succeed to be able to tell that story too she did get really good at it yeah like a lot like she got really good she's taxiing airplanes she's playing croquet oh my god her in that airplane amazing but what is that it's like two two shots comped together or three shots right yeah because she did a nice job of hitting the ball across we had to put the little what is it just put the wicket yeah over the ball and and do that but she was pretty good with it yeah and we were at it was a high school that looked like a college it was a really yeah it was really nice because it's like a football stadium it's kind of amazing with like a press area yeah yeah and like an astroturf field like it was an incredible yeah yeah but it was great when you got those big wide shots with just the two of them out in the middle of the field. They're so tiny on this big field. It really showed the scope of where they were. Yeah. It felt like we had so many shots that were cool that it was like you got to kind of pick your poison and, you know, again. It's such a photogenic stadium too. Like it's got that really southwestern design and the way the stairs are designed and everything. Like every angle is like graphically beautiful. Yeah. That's a playground for Marshall and the operators for sure. And it was a great contrast to the arena with all of those people. And then you just see this with two of them out there in those big spaces. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. Weirdly, all the people that were in the stadium with them sleeping are there too. Like that's what's so crazy, right? You're like, they're all there. They're all enjoying this game of croquet with Carol at the same time. It is crazy to think that every time they're like, we're everybody, which can be played in a haunting way. It can be very funny when Carol's grilling Ravi about a female pelvic exam. Oh my God. Which is, that's so good. But Melissa, how has it, because I edited your directorial debut on Better Call Saul. Thank you very much, amazing. For you, how has the experience changed as a director the more you've done it? Is this your third? Yeah, my third episode and still so much in the family. I mean, both Rich and Marshall, that's who I worked with on my first two episodes and to have Trina on set with me every day and to have Johnny there and to have Diane and Jen like available to problem solve and all the amazing department heads, Jen Bryan, like it just, it felt like old home week for, you know, for me, for maybe three, three old home weeks. I don't know how many of us, but like, you know, so I still felt very just like I'm this sort of team leader for an amazing group that I know very well that I felt so lucky to be collaborating with. It felt like a group project and I loved every minute of it. I felt more comfortable than I had before because it does, it's, you know, it's scary. Well, you, the last two times you did this, you were also executive producing this show. That's true. That was easier. That is a lot. Yeah. So you didn't You could just look at Jen or Trina or me and be like, solve this problem for me. OK, I'm working on this. Now you solve that. And I mean, I'm sure that helps a little bit. It does. And not to go home after the day and catch up on your emails for the next episode. That is that was that was nicer. That's true. And to have you guys, I mean, quite honestly, Chris and Skip, like to come back here and like have to face the music like for that to be in such a constructive creative calming place of like we'll figure it out skip and i definitely did that when we're like okay like let's see what our challenges are and like let's try something different and like it always felt like we were on the same page and we were finding it together so i'm not sure i know how to do it outside of this family but um it's been a nice melissa is magical but i i will just to kind of give a general shout out to the entire crew like me being a little more involved in the production side on this show than I was on the other two shows like the thing that has stayed with me you know now a year out from when we wrapped production is just my favorite memories from the entire time that we were shooting were the problem solving like taking a script problem or taking a location problem or a visual effects problem or anything. There's like no ego anywhere. Like everybody is constantly helping everyone else. Like nobody on this crew is like, well, that's a prop thing. Like I don't do that. Or that's a wardrobe thing. I mean, that's their problem. Like I've never seen anyone on this crew ever, ever take that attitude. It really is just so beautiful the way people work together and help people solve these really challenging issues. And then we really do kind of work it all out in prep so that when you get there on the day, I mean, it's never 100 percent. You know, you're always like a little bit like panicking that you're looking over the edge and about to take a big jump. But it's a trust fall. But like, you know, you're going to worry that you're not going to be caught. Yeah. And just like side note, I just wanted to mention David Terrazas, who was one of the office PAs who was with us when we were in the hospital. and he was helping with the Spanish translation and not just telling me the words, but also like giving me a point of view and like, cause he was so invested in the scene and in the material and like everyone at every level is paying attention to the words on the page. Yeah. And there's so much with the way the show is structured and the rules of the world that you have to be watching at all times. And like none of us ever get it right all the time. Like it literally takes everybody looking at it to make sure that we're asking the right questions. And like the fact that we had to shoot in a stadium with turf, not with real grass because these people can't cut the grass. I remember that conversation. You're like, oh my God, yes, we can't. They can't cut the grass. Like, oh my God. I mean, just, but everything like that is just like, we're just like constantly, constantly watching. And so having everybody so invested, including the office PAs and like, this really just brings everybody along. And no one is afraid to speak up because they could be the person to like save us from making a really stupid mistake. That's so right. We went and looked at the Isotope Stadium and like which was unbelievable. It's so beautiful and photogenic and like and they were going to figure it out like for it. But it was like the amount of growth we would need between the games that were actually needed to be played. Like, yeah, I mean, yeah, there's just so many things to think about. And it's crazy how many people have their eye on the details. Details, details, prep. Because it pays off. And I think also, Diane, to something you were saying earlier about the luxury or the advantage, I think, that we have on these shows is in part that we have time. and Vince being able to focus on production and then focus on post-production, you know, that was on Breaking Bad and we had it on Better Call Saul with Peter and Vince and it makes everything better when you can spend that kind of concentrated amount of time and you, as a showrunner, your focus is already diverted in a million different directions, but to be able to concentrate and just sit down and focus on the editing, it's a real gift. Yeah, it is. And it's what allows Vince to take those kind of bold swings, big swings. And Vince has to go at least a little ways down every single road before he's certain that the road that we ultimately choose is the right road. And that does not happen quickly. And I think all of us very much know how lucky we are to have that luxury of time because that is what makes Vince's particular magic. Agreed. I completely agreed. Speaking of magic, I know one moment I'm sure people are talking about after watching this episode is the moment when Carol and Zosha kiss. Talk about the sort of the tricky balance of who kisses who. I know that that was an important thing story wise. Talk about that moment. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. Yeah I mean for the start of it even as early in the writer room I think we were very very certain that we needed to make sure that Carol was also if not the one initiating definitely the one who like goes 90 of the way kind of goes into it because you never want it It such a tricky combination when we talking about consent and what they doing And in episode two they have the entire conversation with Diabate about you know how much they enjoy pleasure And all of these things are part of the others and part of the world And so you didn't want the others to look too aggressive. You didn't want the others to look too manipulative. So it was kind of like, I think it was an ongoing conversation, even as far as like on set as we were filming it. I think we had multiple versions. And I think you can probably talk to this a lot better, Melissa. So that was an entire kind of process to navigate to make sure it felt real. Yeah, and to make sure it made sense to Ray and Carolina too. And I think it was a process that we sort of allowed that to play out a little bit and definitely worked hand in hand with Ray and Carolina to find what felt authentic and like a real organic moment of connection for them. It definitely isn't what either of them, I think, would have expected that evening to end with, you know, by the time Carolina shows up at Carol's house, it does not seem like it's going to go well. There's so much energy and pain and need and loneliness at the surface for Carol. And you can see all of that on Ray's face. Like that's what's so incredible. And then Carolina has this challenge of like being an other and all that that entails. What can she put out there? Like what feels right and what feels like it has continuity with the story that she's been telling with this character. So as an actor, I mean, Carolina's, I think, challenges are like, I've never heard one like it. It's a crazy role. It's a crazy, crazy character to have to. She did talk a little bit about that challenge on either the episode two or episode three podcast. It's incredibly challenging and like deceptively challenging. Yeah. As an actor, your instinct is to play the emotion or play the reality of a particular scene. But the reality of Zosia and the others is so radically outside of our experience. And then to be able to be doing all of that and to have to also be sort of creating this temptation for Carol. And she serves as the physical embodiment of temptation by design from that moment when Carol realizes, now I know why I know your face. You look like Rabban. She's the pirate lady. Yeah, she's the pirate lady. And we talked about that in the room a lot too, where it's like this bizarre tightrope of the fact that all of Helen's memories are in there. Helen's not steering the ship, but the memories are there. And so all those little moments. And they're using them. They are using them. They are actively using them. And you can see when just the way that she's she's heckling Carol. I mean, she's she's teasing her and that's really her love language. That's Helen. Yeah. Yeah. She's using them, but she's also telling Carol she's using them. Yeah. Yeah. It's all out there. Vince always likes to say they're very lawyerly. Like they definitely withhold information, but they are pretty open about what they're doing most of the time. Carolina, truly, she's so charming in this episode. You might call it a charm offensive. Might call it a charm offensive. Yeah. I mean, by design, right? It's pretty gratifying after, because we see so much of them in episode two and three, and then the conflict kind of gets a little intense in four, and then she's gone. Right. And so then when she comes back now, and you guys talked about it many, many, many times, but Carol is essentially falling in love with the world. which is crazy. Like I can't even like process that. And so for Carolina to play that so intimately and delicately like throughout, and you understand Carol for forgetting that she's not just one person because she's doing such a good job of playing that part of being one person, even though she still uses we and Carol doesn't want her to do that. Cause Carol desperately wants to believe that this is an individual person. I mean, it's just like my head is exploding with all this stuff. Melissa, you found this great moment, too. When Carol comes back in the house after getting the dry erase markers, you know, because you guys are like she is. She's falling in love with the world, but she's still on the case. But she's trying to get closer, but she is getting closer. And it's all her head's in such like a tailspin over this. And as she's moving the Waikaro board away to get back to her being on the case, it's that hesitation where she's kind of looking at Waikaro, knows she has work to do. And it just it lingers for just the right amount of time where you're just like kind of on that precipice with her. It was really well done. Well, just that Zosia lit the fire like and they and the others, they lit the fire about like, oh, what that feels like, what that sunshine on your face feels like when when someone else is excited as you are about this world you've created. And like there's ego in that, but there's also actually her lifting herself out of this dark place. Yeah. I mean, she was just alone for 40 days. She was alone for 40 days and like something broke in her, you know, but to have somebody come back and say, oh, we're just so excited to have something new to read. I mean, there's no new books unless Carol writes a book. What a dream for an author. No pressure. I love that last song. I don't know if you guys speak to that, but it's a Thomas affair. Oh, yes. That's a Thomas hit. Yeah, yeah. The one over the credits? Yeah. It's so good. I mean, Dave's work is always gorgeous. Oh, yeah. Dave Porter just obviously did an incredible job with all of the score in this, I mean, throughout this entire season. Yeah. I mean, I personally love the Sheryl Crow song in The Diner. Like, just brings you right back to that time when it's supposed to be. Like, that's what great source music does, right? It's table setting. And it's also playing a trick on her, right? Like she's right back where she was. And yeah, the end credits when Manusos is on the way. This is this incredible song that Thomas found. And the band is called Traffic Sound. And the song is called You've Got to Be Sure. I think it's old. I think it's from the 70s. You can never know though. It feels like it is. Yeah. Some of them sound old and are not. But this one I believe actually is. It's a band from South America. We'll have to ask Thomas. Thomas, by the way, makes a vocal appearance in this episode. He's the radio DJ. Oh, that's Thomas. It's Thomas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his voice. Had to do it. Like, just had to do it after so many years. Well, he was a DJ. He was. On KCRW. He was. Dizzy Gillespie. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a great, great radio voice. So it was super fun to have him do that. Oh, the one other thing I want to ask, a scene that I really love is when Carol and Zosia go up to that kind of mountaintop and the train is in the background and they're just sort of talking about train sounds and it is good that diane is here for that the train that wasn't i mean the setting are you telling me that's not real unbelievable stuff we you know we tried you know we definitely talked about vince was like let's find a place that has a real train and it was like we don't control the train schedule man like even if we find a place where there's a train What are you talking about? We got Air Force One. We couldn't get a train. I hate to break it to you, Johnny. No. We got Sprouts. We did get Sprouts, which was a big deal. And didn't we get Barnes & Noble, too? And we got Barnes & Noble. We had to shoot at 2 in the morning, but we did get Barnes & Noble. We got Las Vegas. We got Las Vegas, too. We cleared out Las Vegas. We didn't clear out Las Vegas. What? It's digital magic. Yeah, the train, Melissa found this great overlook. Christian Diaz de Bedoya our amazing longtime location manager often mentioned yes because he's yeah so he found a lot of desert that we had not been to before and it just was kind of the perfect place to put that train down in there it was fun yeah the sunset yeah it was beautiful like the one day it didn't rain or get too windy it was beautiful yeah we like that with that yeah and I I love that moment too. I mean, the train is just incidental, right? Because I mean, yeah, you want it to look great and everything, but like the real beauty of that moment is Carol telling them something they don't know. Yeah. She's opening up to them and they're surprised, which I don't think we've seen the others be surprised before. So story-wise, that's one of my favorite moments. And the surprise in seeing Carol also be surprised that they don't know. Yeah. And I think surprised in herself that that softness is able to, come out. Yeah. The vulnerability of telling somebody something that you realize you've never actually even articulated before. And like the unknowableness of being human. Like there's so many things, even in the closest relationships, it's impossible to share everything. Yeah. How well do we know ourselves even in some capacity? Yeah. Very worthy of examination. And that's what that we do on this podcast. We examine the human condition and what is knowable and what is not knowable. And we'll have to wait till next week to find out what else is knowable. Matt, thank you guys for coming in on a Saturday. This is the last podcast that we're recording as a group, which I'm so grateful that we got to do this. It's so fun to talk with all of you and talk about making this show that I know we all love so much. So thank you guys for coming in and spending this time. Thanks for having us. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much to Melissa Bernstein, Johnny Gomez, Diane Mercer, and Skip McDonald. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed, including those bonus episodes. And watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai Theme music by Dave Porter Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest, and Nicholas Tsai Executive producers are Jen Carroll And me, your host, Chris McCaleb Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts