Matt McCusker

My guest today is he's got his own podcast called Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast. And I thought it was behind Patreon and that was my excuse for not watching it. Turns out it's on YouTube once a week. Whoops. And he's got a Netflix special called A Humble Offering, which is a dick joke in case you're wondering, because I watched it. There you go. Some of the bits that stood out for me on your very funny special were you're married to a black woman. you call her black lady which is so much funnier to me i love my wife my wife's a cool lady um and makes her sound 70 yeah um and i like the bit about her wanting you to confront her grandmother yeah it's so fucking funny yeah or her mom yeah sorry it would be your kid's grand but like the dynamics. That's such a funny angle, the angle of like, your white parents and her black parents. Once you have kids, then you have interracial grandparents. And that can be a little tricky because like, you know, they're not used to like team building projects as much yet. And like, okay, well, you guys didn't grow up with BET. Like, the differences in their lack of cultural understanding for each other versus someone your age. Oh, yeah. It's so massive. Leagues beyond. Actually, the only, my mom, super Catholic, she got rid of a lot of the music channels in her house, but I only had BET because she wasn't aware of it. So that was the only music channel I had growing up. She's so white, she wasn't even aware of BET. She wasn't, you know, she wasn't aware of black entertainment, and then I, so that was the only music channel I had growing up. Did you grow up around a lot of black people? No. Okay, so when did you date a lot before your wife? Yeah, I kind of ran the spectrum, honestly. Like, once I went to college, I was in Philadelphia. Yeah. It was a Catholic school, so it was mostly, like, Polish people, Irish people, Italians. And so that was kind of my, that was what I had to work with early on. I went to Catholic school also, Archbishop Carroll. Oh, nice. Or as they call it, Carroll. The Italian names in Philly, the amount of apostrophes and... Yeah. It was always, I've still never seen that level of nonsense. Yeah, I mean, that's like the epicenter of just, it's New Jersey and South Philly are like the epicenter of just Italian-ness in itself. So yeah, they really pig out on like the D'Anastasio, you know, all that stuff and yeah. Couldn't spell it. At least one apostrophe, if not more. Okay, so, and then you start dating your wife And it's just like, you just fall in love and just like, okay. Yeah. Regular. I ask because like Philly, there's just not a lot of that in Philly that much. And when I lived there, it just wasn't a lot. It just was like, it's a pretty segregated city. Dude, I thought Philly was segregated. Go to Chicago. I want some Chicago. Chicago is like. Well, you know, Martin Luther King said Chicago is the most segregated place he's ever been. Still is. Yeah. It's insane. I totally agree. And you know a bit about that. When I went to the south side of Chicago, I had to look it up. It's 99.9% black, which I have no problems with. My problem is I think it might be 100% black. Yeah, it's wild. I wasn't prepared for just like, it's like Philly, Philly's, you weren't prepared for that level of joy. I'm kidding. Well, Philly's like, you know, I don't even think Philly's that's, I mean, it is. There's definitely like, you know, different neighborhoods and stuff. I'd say it's like the whole fucking country segregated, ultimately, like culture. I mean, it's New York's less so. It's just a matter of like less so, but it's still pretty insane. The level of it is just bananas. Yeah, that's true. You had another bit that I liked. Oh, you referred to Ontario as the amount of fat Mexicans was fantastic. They're not fat. They're huge. Everyone told me, don't fucking film in Ontario. I said, don't film in the land of the most giant Mexicans ever. massive. They're like Samoan level Mexicans. I swear to God, they might be wayfinders. They might have charted the course and made it to Ontario. They are massive guys. They're not the tallest bunch, but out in Ontario, California Not so far, no. In California, I don't know. There might be some trench coat guys standing on each other's shoulders out there. They're big boys, man. Yes, they are. Also, I like the you have like an opening of the special. Yeah. Fuck off. That I actually liked. Thank you. Because most of them stink. Most of them were like, why are you doing this to me? Yeah. And it was like, oh, this is some, your basic POV, but like the lead up to the special is just a day of insanity. I'll say that. Yeah, that was my goal. I did a YouTube special and I had an unnecessary intro on that as well. That was kind of just ridiculous. So I wanted to follow that up. Dude, that was so fun. Filming that was so fun. There was a little back and forth with how long it should be, but I kind of stood my ground. And you did it at the end. You jumped off stage. Oh, yeah, there's that too. And then went back into it. Fantastic. Thank you. And the podcast is a runaway success beyond your wildest dreams, I would assume? Yeah, it's pretty crazy. We were... Yeah, me and Shane started that a long time ago, and we were like... I was on an air mattress. He was kind of just like mattress on the floor situation. This is the very first episode. This is... This is big time, dude. History. This is history. I give it five episodes. How about you? Five's a little ambitious. I think we'll die. People fizzle out after two. Yeah, it was, we couldn't, I couldn't imagine, you know, that's the fact that we get paid to do it at all. I'm like, that's crazy. And it doesn't seem like you just literally sit and talk. Yeah. There's, you don't have to book it. You don't have to literally just. Shane, Shane will, he doesn't even like, even consciously book it. I'll just show up. He's like, oh, you know who's in town? We have a guest. I'm like, nice. And it's like, yeah. So. Great. So yeah, we just sit down and talk. We chatted up and just mess around. Did you feel guilty for baiting him into making all the Chinese voices? I, you know, not at the time. We were just handling business. But, yeah, I mean, I was kind of the genesis of that whole joke. And, yeah, I did feel bad about it. That's got to be a pretty big whoops. I bet you did feel pretty bad for a month, maybe. Yeah. But although, I mean, not like it was legitimate or anything. but I'm saying, like, you must have been like, I didn't think I was gonna get you. Yeah, I mean, also, too, it was kind of, that was like when they got Al Capone on tax evasion. You know what I mean? We were like, all right, yeah, you got us. But the, uh, yeah, you know, I don't know. I felt, I just felt bad he had to go through all that stuff, but at the same time, I just thought it was so ridiculous during the time, I'm like, dude, this is crazy. Like, I just thought it got completely taken out of context, and it was like, it was just nuts. So it wasn't even like, like, I'm conscious of it now, though. I'm always kind of like, let me not, you know, blow this guy. Do one of our famous Chinese voices bits? I mean, yeah. That, I mean, it's still, it is funny, you know. I can't deny it. But, yeah, I try to not, you know. The noodle pronunciation? Yeah, it's so funny. It's a good. It's funny. It's the right. It's what it sounds like. Neuters. Neuters. And it's classic. And therefore it's classic. Yeah, but I also, though, I was pretty confident that, you know, And for him, I'm sure it was just really grim, but I don't know. I always was confident that he was going to emerge through it. And I wasn't kind of shocked about how everything's kind of swung around so much. It's the most successful five-day run in Saturday Night Live history. Yeah. I literally was looking you up, and I looked at him and was like, he was on it for five days, never got on. Yeah. And now he does arenas. Yeah, it came at a time when everyone was feeling a little boxed in anyway, and I don't know, I feel like he kind of just stepped into, like, some weird cultural kind of just explosion thing where it was like it was already tense, and he was kind of like, he just kind of, like, embodied a lot of that stuff. I want to talk about your blocks. They're, uh, some are pretty, um, pretty pedestrian. Caffeine addiction, which you seem to be handling pretty well. I am. I've kind of put a clamp, I kind of had to put the clamps on it, because I didn't drink coffee. I'm, like, very sensitive to caffeine. And then once I had kids, I got so tired that I could actually handle it. You finally got into this proper zone that it could help you without. That's so funny. How much harder is parenting than you thought it was going to be? I mean, like infinitely. It's not even so much. It's definitely hard because there's like two levels of it where it's like, you know, like there's the physical aspect of like, well, I'm waking up, I'm sleep deprived. I got to get you from here to there. And then there's like the mental, emotional aspect. That was another bit I liked. Like, the hitting thing. Yeah. What if 10 years from now we learn that, like, looking at the iPad all day is just as bad as hitting kids? You know what I mean? Because then it's like, dude, we could have been hitting these kids the whole time. I'm one of 10. Yeah, I'm six. So the amount of hitting. Yes, we have to. It was what, like, you defend hitting. Yeah. Obviously, you're not gonna, Wank. No, obviously, you're not going to. But, and that, I believe that's part of the reason why you married a black woman, because you thought you'd be able to. Yeah. but that's still possible in the black community. It's still very, very possible. But do you find it? It is just that my girl has a five-year-old, so it's like the test of patience and endurance is crazy. I apologize to my mom. Yeah. Because I was like, I didn't have any idea what this was. Yeah, that puts that in perspective big time, where you're like, you know, especially like people, a lot of people in their 20s get to be like, my parents this and that. It's like, dude, wait till you have a kid. you're just kind of like, yeah, you know what, this is... I might scream, you know? It's like I might freak out, because you literally go beyond your patience over and over and over. Yeah. Did you have to, like, have, like, all right, how am I going to do this? Did you have, like, a plan and then an adjustment? Yeah, I didn't have a plan, but my goal is for... Like, I just, I'm like, I'm not hitting my kids. I'm going to not... Because I also have daughters, too, so it's like, you know, I'm not going to hit my daughters. But if I had a son, I'd have to... That's case. That's might be case by case basis. But day to day. Go day to day on that. Day to day on that. You know, it's certain weights, maybe. But the no what I you know, I kind of figured it out on the fly where I was like, if I just like there's this I hold myself to the standard that like if I yell or display like, you know, anger in a way that could be scary, even if I'm right to be angry, I apologize to my kids. I'm like, hey, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have yelled at you. But and they're very forgiving. They're like, it's OK, you're fine. And then, oh, they just don't want me to fucking hit them. But they're like, you're always like, no, it's totally fine. But then I'll be like, hey, I messed up. I'm sorry. But you also messed up because I told you to do this three times. You didn't. Can you do it for me now? And that works. Or I'll start to say if I'm getting. It works if you yell. No, if I yell, they kind of like, they'll kind of like just freak out. You still don't get the thing done. So if I start getting angry, I'm being like kind of like nasty. I'll catch myself and make, I'm sorry for that. I shouldn't have done that. But you still need to do all this stuff. or I announce, I go, guys, I'm getting angry right now, and I'm about to spaz, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, and then they, like, clean up. Are you the, is it the classic roles of, like, you're the disciplinarian? No, it's reversed. I'm kind of the softie. My wife's the hammer. So, and I will, I'll, it's like she's the, like, you know, day-to-day hammer, and then if I get to a certain point, I'll really, I'm kind of like the, I'm the atomic bomb if there needs to be, you know what I mean? Okay. So I recently hit my first, like, table slam recently. You're like the neighbor, you're the friendly neighborhood cop at first. Yeah. If they go past you, then your wife is like the hard at, bad cop. Yes. And then you're fucking the bad lieutenant. Yes. I'll eventually, like, I got to. Court of New Orleans. Yeah. I got to hit my first dinner table table slam. Did you really? Felt good, man. How the forks did, did the forks jump? I was at my own parents' house. So I was at the table. At the table that started it all. Exactly. And they were like, and they weren't listening, and I just went to boom and smack the table, and it was like a little plagiarism. And they were both like, whoa. And did your dad wink at you? I think, yeah, I think it was like, I don't know. I always wonder, because if I yell at them, especially there, I feel like my parents are kind of, like my mom will be like, oh, no, no, no, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, so it's kind of interesting. But, yeah, that felt good, though, to get that full table slam. Was it a different level of obedience after that? For like 10 seconds, yeah. You know, I got to get, they like stopped and were like, whoa, and they like responded. because they like weren't listening i think to my wife and i hit them with a big do you get points with your wife yes if i'm if that's that's a thing too i have to learn that's a tough thing too especially if me and my wife aren't seeing eye to eye it's hard not to like if the kids if there can be a disagreement with like how do we handle this and if my kids go against her there'll be times where i'd be like yes like they're like syrian rebels undermining like the local authority i'm like yes i can use this but no you have to be like no matter what like hey listen to your mom and you just discuss afterwards rather than in the moment being like, well, they have a point, actually. You know, you are kind of being a bit overbearing. Yeah, what do you do in that? You can't do that. You have to have a united front. Can you do a day later? Like, hey. No, or the only thing I'll do around them, and we both do this to each other, is like, hey, be nicer. Like, you know, you're not being nicer. You can be nicer right now. To your kids. All of us. If anyone can get that. Can the daughter say that to your wife about you? They get me all the time. They'll get, yeah, they can do it vice versa, but they'll, if I even, if I'm giving like, you know, if we're in the car together and I'm giving my wife even like an ounce of attitude or I'm like talking away, that's just like not nice. My daughters will be like, you're not being nice. Be nice to mom. And vice versa. Yeah. And I'll, and I'll be like, and if I, I'll be like, all right, my bad. You guys got me. I'll be nice. Or sometimes we're just not arguing and they'll be like, you're arguing. I'm like, we're not, we're actually not arguing right now. Yeah. That's, that's gotta be, uh, I like your bit about, I just assumed that like once you got married it was on tap. You're gonna be left set. I'm with you 100%. I've always said like the fact that a woman can just go no when you're like, wait. You know this is how cheating starts. You know this is how white people, this is how this is the beginning of a story about cheating. Yeah. It can't be. I mean I guess it could be. But I'm saying you don't want it to be. You don't want it to be. And you can't really say that. Can't threaten a man. Thankfully, you won't let your wife listen to podcasts, so she'll never hear this. She'll listen every now and again. But yeah, that's a tough one, too, to be like. Because you see guys on YouTube doing it where they're like, I had a conversation with my wife where I say, look, for every time, you don't do this for me, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, it seems like he's pulling it off. And you try to, like, I'm going to use that guy on YouTube on steroids. What's the method? You go, like, if you don't give me this? I've seen that before. Or like, if you don't give it to me, a man has appetites and he will fulfill those appetites. And it seems very convincing. You try to have that conversation with your wife and you're just like, I just bail so hard. I'm like, I don't know. I like when guys talk about themselves like they're Roman emperors. Exactly, yeah. And then I shall. I shall have my own appetite. Shut the fuck up. I know. What are you saying? You're going to fuck somebody? And I'm like, nah, I'm sorry. Just let me know. You can pencil it in. Okay, so have you ever had a panic attack? We're getting back to coffee. Have you ever had a panic attack from caffeine? Yes, that was the first panic attack I had. I was in an office. First time working in an office, I was like 19 years old. And I didn't even know a panic attack. You're off the construction. Yeah, that was my dad's big dream. He was like, get into an office. There's air conditioning in there. Hell, nice would that be to work in air conditioning. I'm like, damn, that would be kind of cool. Your dad was 1,100 years old. His wildest dream, son. his last wish. That was their whole thing. They're like, if you go to college, you can work inside in air conditioning. And I was like, I will do it, Father. You would enjoy. Okay, so I looked up what the most common job in America in the last 150 years by decade was. What was it? Starting in 1850, 60. Farmer, farmer, farmer, farmer, farmer, farmer, farmer, farmer factory factory factory factory factory factory factory and then in the 80s office oh really now it's all office yeah but it was because it's yeah i was just trying to write a bit about like women complaining and uh and uh but i was like what all this like patriarch it's like most men couldn't read yeah they were all farmers no one had any power like eight men had power it wasn't all it was eight men you've heard of them john rockeveld like yeah so it's funny that what was your what did your grandfather do for work oh they had a they had a family trash business so they did like a waste removal basically dumpsters and then my dad and his brothers took that over and then they sold it and then and then started construction demolition yeah oh okay like just knock down buildings and stuff uh is your dad still alive yeah he still works he's like in his He still does demolition. What's the worst part of demo? Is it the joints or the lungs? Honestly, I really think out of the trades, it's the hardest on your body, because you're collapsing things, so you're breathing in dust of all various asbestos. You're constantly breathing in asbestos. You're snapping lines of like Freon. That's going off sometimes. There's just the silicates and concrete. And yes, on the joints, you're bearing a heavy load, and the risk of injury is so high. Is there a mask? is there like yeah you're supposed to you're a pussy if you exactly you're huge and it's pre-covid but it's like yeah my i had an uncle who would like there's there's like two rubber bands around the back of your head i mean we all know what they are but they uh he would like lift his up and smoke cigarettes underneath and it's like so you did grow up in philly yeah yeah none of them it was like it was like you're supposed to wear them but they're like kind of like like you're You're kind of a pussy if you wear it. And we'll see. It's just one of those, like, lungs-wise, we'll see what happens for those guys. It's like, yeah, they're just, you're not supposed to worry about your health. If you worry about your health, it's like, you're kind of a girl. They're like, dude, what are you, like, because I have, like, a gluten allergy. My mom, I get a lot of my, like, physical stuff from my mom. She had a gluten allergy in the 70s that she, like, self-diagnosed. Pioneer. Total pioneer. And she can't have caffeine, super caffeine sensitive. So I was like, you know, I still like be sitting there on a site with my dad and be like, yeah, it's pretty dusty in here. We should get some ventilation. He's like, what are you worried about that shit? And I'd be like, no, no, no, whatever. But we were in a building one time where they were running heavy machinery indoors. So it was like the air was tinged with diesel smoke. It was like blue. And I was like, there's asbestos. You're like, yeah, like, you know, whatever. There's stuff being broken there, all this stuff. And I was just like begging. I had like three other guys I was working with to be like, dude, I'll talk to them. Do you want, we should like cut a big hole in the, in the window to get like, or it was like a metal grate to get some air in here. And they're like, yeah, for sure, dude. And as soon as I brought it up to my dad and my uncles, they were, I was like, yeah, it's kind of bad. We should cut a hole. And I'm looking at them like, right guys. And they were like, ah, we're fine. And I was like, you fucking assholes. And they were like, you're a pussy. But they ended up doing it, you know, whatever. But yeah, it is, it is tough guys rule. They, they always, they literally say they're the last, last of the tough guys. Yeah. I mean, God bless them. Yeah. But if they didn't own the company, I feel like most of those guys are kind of fucked. Well, although they're going to have jobs. Like, AI is not going to be. That's going to be related for AI. No, they're fine. Especially if it's moving giant mounds of concrete. And, you know, AI is not going to do that. No. All right. So you have a panic attack in the office? Yeah. So I had my first office job. I was, you know, I was like, it was an internship in college, and I was super excited. I was like, all right, it's going to be cool. I'm in an office. And I think I was just like probably drinking coffee, and I was probably like 19, and I was just staring at a monitor. I didn't really like know what to do with myself. And I was in such an alien environment. Huffing the air conditioner. Yeah, I was. You know, the temperature was perfect. But I remember just like... So I shouldn't blame the temperature. I was going to blame the temperature. No, the temperature was beautiful. It was actually, I was soaking it in. And I just like started like breathing weird, And I remember my vision getting all distorted. And I was like, oh, I'm like, I was like, I'm dying. What the fuck? I thought I was having a heart attack. And I just like ran outside and just like stayed outside all day and just didn't go back for like an entire day. And did you, how long did it take you to realize like, oh, that was caffeine? Well, the problem was, I feel like slightly before that, at the time I was like selling mushrooms. So I had a pound of mushrooms and I had eaten a quarter ounce of not knowing what I was doing. And I think that also, because I used to be able to drink coffee when I was younger and ever since I ate like a quarter ounce of mushrooms What would that be 200 2 1 grams No No seven So I ate an eighth one time and then I was like well if I ate two ace it be twice as fun So I ate seven grams and I like, dude, I rocked my socks in a bad way. Then it became good after that, but I started having anxiety after that. How long did it rock your socks for? Like all night, pretty much. And then when did it get good? What time did you eat them? Like nighttime after like drinking all night. So it was like not the best thing. I try to watch Wayne's World and I felt like the couch was eating me and I was like, all right, this is I think they're kicking in. And then, uh, and then, yeah, then like it like I started after that. It was like horrible terror to like complete bliss to where I was like going to call my parents. What time is it when complete? Five in the morning. It was like, yeah, sunlight was coming. Did you have work the next day? No, I think I was at school or something, but I do remember like it was it was like the middle of the night. So like it was, it was like dawn, like early dawn when it's like still kind of dark. And I remember tripping so hard that I thought I got stuck between night and day and I would never get out of that. So when the sun came up, it was a gigantic relief for me. But then it like turned into this whole thing. Like I'm never working a day in my life. I'm going to wander the earth. I'm going to, that was my big idea. I'm going to start a vacation resort. That way I can get paid to be on vacation. Yep. And then like I sobered up and I was like, I'm going to need about $500 million to do that. You know? So that was, that was my big idea. But I was going to like call my parents. I was going to drop out of school. I had people that like owed me money. I was going to call them like, hey, don't worry about it, blah, blah, blah. Because you just thought that's not for Matt. For like three lovely hours, I was above money. I was like, I don't even need that stuff. Who cares about it? But yeah, so then after that, I started getting like panic attacks somewhere in that. And then that's when I got hit at that office. And it was just like, it just rocked myself. Oh, so you thought it was maybe shroom affiliated. That was the first time I really got like a whole body anxiety feeling really. Yeah. That I was like consciously aware of at least. So then when like that feeling returned out of nowhere, and you know, caffeine will set it off. I was just like, what the fuck is this? Because before I was like, oh, I'm just tripping, I guess. I got him on stage. I've done it before. Panic attack? Oh, yeah. And just, did you like walk off or did you kind of like bunker down? I didn't know. I literally didn't know what was happening. Oh, that sucks. At least I knew what it was. I had no idea. And I didn't even know. I thought it was just like a weird, like I thought it was just like a joke. The energy you get when a joke doesn't work, that like flood. Yeah. But I got it at the beginning. And I was like, I couldn't even really talk. And it was the like walls closing in. I got it the night before I shot my first Netflix special. Oh. Yeah. And then I, yeah. So like Jessalynik was supposed to bring me up and I was like, don't bring me up. Oh no. And I don't know how I, I'm just lucky I didn't get one during the, like during the taping and then I it was Zoloft I like went off Zoloft whatever what now I just take propanolol before I go on and it's just like what is that it's a heart it's like a blood pressure yeah it's beta blocker wow I've heard about that do it if you have if you it just makes it like I'm never gonna get a panic attack that's crazy it's like it just makes it so because the the thing about panic attacks is once your body knows you're gonna have them it's like we should fucking have a panic attack just rip them I got them so early on that like for me it was like my early 20s and I kind of just like I just wrote I just kind of wrote them out it's really hard they used to pop up on stage and that would be like I'm like talking where I'm thinking while I'm saying something else and it's like a stand up's like that anyway but it's worse because you're really aware of it I had one a week ago I just forgot to take a propanolol. Yeah. And I had one on stage and I could get the jokes out but the audience knows something's weird about you. Yeah. And the jokes work 40% less. Yes. They don't not work but they get like something's up. Something's going on. Yeah. And they don't know what it is and you're like I don't know how long yours last. Mine lasts like 90 seconds? Mine will last like, yeah, that's why I don't drink coffee before I do stand-up, because if that caffeine... I fucking do shots of espresso. I don't know if it's related. My heart will start to race, and then I'll be talking, and my heart will be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have a fucking heart attack, and then I'll get a flood of anxiety while I'm still trying to perform, and then I have to do a thing where I'm like, hey, if I die, I die, and that's the only cure for it. That's the one thing about anxiety that I don't like. I mean, you know, people medicate against it, whatever, but for me, like, when I got panic attacks, like, I needed to, like, my body was basically being like, dude, the way you're living is fucking nuts. You have to do, like, but I wouldn't have never have known otherwise. My body, like, completely rebelled against me. Sometimes I feel like they suck in the moment. So you're talking about what, so what, the one at the office and the ones on stage, what are you doing wrong? Well, not so much the ones on stage, but it was, like, at, I, when I started getting anxiety, I was like, man, this is coming out of nowhere. This is bullshit. but like I wasn't sleeping I was drinking almost every night of the week I was like selling weed I was I was doing all I was like yeah just had a very stress on top of being in college full-time and then I'd have like odd jobs here and there so I was just living in like an insanely stressful way and my body was like yo dude like whatever this is no and it like and also too like I you know I was so young that like I didn't really have much empathy for other people at the time I was just kind of like I wasn't like you know super mean but I just was I didn't really like think about how other people felt at all, and that was, like, the first time I got, like, really kind of confronted with, like, I really was, like, broken by it at, like, an early age. Like, I got so anxious, I stopped going to class. Like, it just was, like, a serious... Oh, so you were, like, oh, everyone has problems, probably. Yes, that was a huge moment for me to be, like, wait a minute, is everyone having... You go on, like, the subreddit, and it's five million members, you're, like, five million members, that's a lot. Yeah, that was a big thing, too, of, like, just being absolutely, especially when you're young man you're like you know like you're not supposed to be empathetic exactly you're like my future's ahead of me i'm going to dominate it is it truly was pussy shit and i remember feeling just like holy fuck like i was like bad i would lay down to go to sleep and like like when i would get really bad anxiety like i would get to the point where like like one night i could hear like a voice in my head of like an old british man for some it was like i was like bordering on psychosis and i remember like finally i was just dealing with it myself and one day i finally called my mom and I was like dude I don't know what's going on with me and she was like oh I used to get panic attacks all the time you're fine and like that alone I was like oh that's a huge relief and then she I was like what do you do for it she was like stay busy I was like fuck man I thought you had a way to conquer these things but I feel like in the long term I'm like all right I'll sell more drugs yeah exactly I know I'm gonna I'm gonna start selling coke now on the uh but yeah so that was like for me it was kind of like uh I don't know like it humanized me in a way where I was like, I'm glad I dealt with that because if I didn't, I don't know. Did you deal with it or you just like... I did, yeah. What was the dealing with it after you call your mom? It just, I just became like very, it made me more self-aware of just kind of like, you know, how am I living? What am I doing? And, you know, like it just kicked off a thing where, because I started out as a psychology major and then I switched to business because my whole family was like, don't be a psychologist, you're going to go crazy. And so it is kind of like, I already had an interest in the area, but now I had like a very personal kind of attachment to like learning how to, you know, make your mind. Would you go to therapy? I eventually did when I was 30. Got it. So, because I went to school for social work when I was in my early 30s. Because I eventually, it was like, maybe I'll like, in case I don't want to do stand-up, because I always wanted to be a therapist. So I was like, maybe I could just, you know, go to school, get my social work degree and become a therapist. And they were like, we strongly advise you to try therapy. And I was like, I'll try it out. And I was like, fucking why? I really was. Even then, I was, I talked about this yesterday, but I was like, all right, I'm going to go to a therapist. And I for real thought. No, I give it. I don't get it. I give therapy. I have the answers. I don't need them. I literally, in my early 30s, I walked in this lady's office being like, I'm not going to give her too much. I don't want to fuck her head up with all my knowledge. And she completely picked me apart in like two minutes. Did you cry? Not the first time, but eventually, yeah, I cried in front of her. Yeah. Great. It was nice. Guys, you know how I think eating is kind of a pain in the butt? You know what I mean? Like, I'll do it, but I'm not. Lunch, I'm not trying to make a big deal out of. And if I'm going to work out, maybe I eat an apple and then do, I don't know, ever heard of a Huel? That's what I do. If I'm going to, yeah, I do maybe an apple, a Huel, maybe like a little something starchy. but I don't need any more protein than I'm getting because it's all in the huell, baby. Look, we're living through the protein renaissance. There's nothing else you can call it. You throw a huell down the old gullet, hit the gym on the 10th floor of the building you're staying in right now? Huh? 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It's hard to say. Huel.com slash Neil 20. Hey, you know, when they, um, when they say like, ask your doctor, if whatever's right for you, does anybody feel like they have, first of all, any right to ask their doctor or anything? That's my first thing or empowered in any way with information or with like, Hey, what's this mean? What's this mean? They'll tell you, If you get a blood test at the doctor, they'll tell you if you're pre-something, pre-diabetic. But there's not a lot of information, guys, which is where our friends' superpower come in. Guys, here's what superpower does. Superpower sends a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby lab. It's one simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, which is way more than what you usually get. And it unlocks a real understanding of your body as you head into this new year, 2026. It's basically some rich people stuff that now is like available for normal people. Because rich people call it concierge service. This is basically like what rich people been doing. Yeah, like, I don't, you don't know. You walk down the, like, the supplement aisle. And if you go to the store or you go to a GNC or you go to a vitamin shop or whatever. And you say, you don't know. There's a thousand of these things. you're like, I don't, is this, do I need this? Do I need this? I have no idea. It would glutamine help me? How about the other one with the sleep? How about my focus? Superpower basically tells you what's happening in your body and what you can do about it. And then, and then you get tested again down the line and you can see if any of it works. Cause that's the thing. It's like you take, people go, you take that supplement. It's good. You're like, I don't know. The only someone's ever really worked for me is caffeine. So, I mean, I say that before, you know what I mean. It's the only one where you're like, I can probably tell the difference because you can't, you're not doing a blood draw. That's the beauty of superpower, guys. You're doing a blood draw and you're going to know what's happening in your body and if it worked or not. Here's the call to action. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with superpower. Not only did Superpower reduced the price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with code NEAL. You're a sucker if you don't do this. Head to superpower.com and use code NEAL at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them make sure you mention this podcast and support our beautiful little show superpower superpower.com code neil how old were you when you like got with your girl and started having kids 20 we met when i was 29 and she was 24 so that was like a and when did you start having kids when i was like 32 i'm gonna say did that have the thing of like replaced your problems with Did it have that effect? No, no, no, no. Not that. Because it's like, the whole 20s were just like a jumbled, just like kind of turbocharged mess. And then like, you know, whatever. Actually, I was married in my late 20s, that kind of fell apart. So now I'm with my wife now, and I was really like, I'm really determined to make this work. Like, I don't want this to fall apart. And when we had kids, because even me and my wife now, our relationship was really rocky, because it was like, It was like, you know, we were just, we just didn't really have the tools to like deal with each other and whatever. And, but when we had kids, then that when, that's when I was like, oh man, we really got to figure this out. We really don't have tools. Yeah, yeah. Well, we did figure it out, luckily, you know, because she had a therapist, thank God. And we did like couples counseling, which a lot of people give it a bad name. They're like, well, it's over by then. It's like, look, man, you need to do what you got to do. But I've tried to get into couples counseling six weeks into a relationship. Legitimately. Like, if you think you have a shot, start early. Because what are you hiding? What do you have to hide from? No, it's a pride thing. Get it all out there. It's a big pride thing where they're like, if a couple needs help discussing issues, they're not going to last. And it's like, some people last, but they're miserable in a relationship. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, yeah, I think it's a fantastic thing to do. But yeah, once you have kids, especially when you have that little set of eyes on you, and you're like, you know, your house is in just complete disarray emotionally, you're kind of like, there has to be a way to figure this out. Like, this house doesn't have to be this place of chaos. Was it easier than you thought it would be? No. Did you have any? It was hard. Yeah, it was so hard. Because then the big pill to swallow is, because it's easy to be like, you know, if you're in a place where it's like kind of emotionally dysregulated, to be like, well, like for me, I could be like, well, if my fucking wife would stop doing this shit, everything would be fine. but the big pill to swallow is you're doing shit that's not fine as well and you have to really control the shit you're not doing which is to even acknowledge it just like goes against your own like biology and such and such and like literally swimming up like a strong current to be like i'm being kind of a piece of shit here aren't i which is like insane to be able to recognize and do that but then to actually a admit that to the other person even when you're feeling like yeah but the shit you're doing still bothering me to be like i'm doing shit that sucks and I'm sorry for that and then try to like stop yourself from doing the shit that sucks in the moment when you feel like you most want to. What were your what were your things what were your big things that you were doing? Just anger like physically destructing stuff not not her thank god but like. Are you like a wall but you're a demo guy. Oh yeah. You're truly are. Smash glasses smash walls I'll do all that stuff but I don't I haven't done it in a long time but that was. Did you ever smash a glass in your hand? No no thank god I've never smashed a glass in my hand I've smashed a glass into the dishwasher or other glasses. That was a big mess. Was it passive aggression? Fine, I'll fucking load it. And then you smashed it? Paint a picture for us. Okay, so it's phones. Phones have gotten the rap a lot where it's like arguing on the phone. You're at a 10 and then I'll get hung up on and then it's just like, fuck this thing. Did you have a case on the phone? Did it have a phone case? Yeah, I've broken them. I've like bent the frame before from smashing them. and I have, I smashed my phone one time so hard that it called 911. It did an emergency SOS. And I couldn't find my phone because I was driving. I was like, shit. And I hear it calling. I had to reach and grab it. I had to call. Like, no, I'm sorry. You're like, it's nothing, you pussy. Yeah, I'm fucking doing it. But yeah, I fucked up phones. But for the, like the dishwasher thing is like, if I can remember it, it's like we're arguing in person. I'm just like, I'm trying to, it's like a multi-level thing where I'm like, why are you being this way towards me? This isn't fair. and then it's like I'm trying to articulate my points you're and I'm not doing a good job at that either I'm I don't even I don't even know if I know how and then it's being met with like more anger and you're getting and then you storm off upstairs and I'm just like it's like an urge you get this feeling and you're like don't do it don't do it don't do it and you're like fuck it and you feel so good when you like break the thing you're like ah but then you go well fuck Well, do you feel justified? Because that was all I would, I have, I can yell. Yeah. Especially in work. And, and I, it was a lot of it was the story I was telling myself about, like, they're intentionally fucking me. Yeah. And now, and I'm a victim. And my only recourse is, and, and they're insulting my intelligence. And here they earned it. I, first of all, I deserve to do it. Yeah. I deserve a big tray of ice cream. Like, I deserve this monologue, this heated monologue. I deserve—I—it's my birthday. Yeah, it's time. It's time for me to finally do this. Yeah, I was more—I'll do that sometimes if I've been like, all right, I just—you know, we've been arguing now. I'll, like, monologue out where I'm like— because I'll also just keep stuff to myself for a very long time, and then it'll just all just be like, and I'll just like spaz for like 30 minutes straight. Like, and another thing, and another thing, and another thing. And my wife's like, dude, I'm just capping here. We'll revisit this one. And by the way, like, you're an asshole for not saying each thing on the way. Yeah, that's what I've had to learn. Because I just be like, I'll notice something and be like, all right, that's how you want to fucking be, huh? And I'll just wait three days and be like, motherfucker, remember Thursday? What if I were to marinate this for three days? I could talk about this now, but what if I fucking pickled it? Yeah, and then drink like 16 ounces of coffee and just explode. In the car, fucking like, here we go. And did you have a protocol for how to stop? Yeah, I mean, again, it was like, luckily during COVID, I had already been interested in all the psychology and stuff, but like, once everything kind of like slowed to a halt, I kind of, all I had to do really was my podcast. So in between, I would like, we were living in Philadelphia at the time. Did you paint that as like hard? Like, fucking, I got to get there 10 minutes before. Did, uh, the, doing the podcast, would you pretend it was a hardship? No, because there was a point, no, there was a point at COVID where we just did, like, Zoom. So we were, like, Shane was traveling. We just did Zoom, so, like, all I had to do was go to my basement and do that for, like, a couple hours a week. But I would sit in my basement. I did a ton of research and reading, and, like, I really used that time and, like... For psychological reading? Yeah, got real into that, and I was doing a thing on Discord. For your own shit or just general? And then I tried, I had this whole idea, I tried to start, like, a... online version of, not necessarily AA, but like peer-led kind of, you know, like. Fellowship? Fellowship or like emotional type stuff where people, like just take information I was reading and kind of like, like, hey, this is this, and then let people kind of chat. You know, I did do it for a while, and I kind of liked it. Tell me about that. What was it? I had a thing. I called it Psych-Nall. That was the name of it. Psych-Nall? Yeah, Psych-Nall, like a psychology, but like psych, and people say jokes like Psych-Nall. I'm just kidding. Oh, got it, got it. But it was psych. That wasn't like psychology. But the, so I had this whole idea where I was like, if AA works, where you can take it, you know, you take it where people help each other with like addiction stuff. That's also a lot of psychology stuff. It should work for people who aren't necessarily alcoholics. Right. But also just have regular problems. But that's the issue is what is the problem? What's, how do you, how do you organize it? It's just life. It's just like, yeah, life. So that's the problem. There was nothing, there's not a centralized thing to organize it. Um, so I, you know, I tried and I still like, it's still, there's still a discord where people use it and there's like a daily meditation and all that stuff where people go and they do it together. It's kind of nice, but I had your memory lives on. Yeah. I had grandiose dreams for it. I was like, I'm going to take down the idea of therapy. We remember your, your resort. We assumed this was going to fold into that. I have a bad case of like, you know, railroad railroad tycoon brain. Like, and then that'll happen and it'll change the whole thing. I do that with bits where I like this is the bit This is the one This is people are not gonna fucking believe it when I it when I do this And it gets nothing Yeah and I be like this tweet going to change the entire discourse And it's just like, yeah, nobody likes it. And no one's ever going to be the same. This is going to heal it. How long did that last? It lasted kind of through COVID, honestly. What was the biggest meeting? What was the most amount of people that ever were in one? I mean, I forget. I used to do two things. I would do a Zoom that would have, like, you know, 30, sometimes 30 people or so. And then I had this. What was the format? It was, like, a Zoom chat where we would just, like, talk. I would, like, either talk about something I read and anyone could just, it was pretty loose. Can you give me an example? Because I'm fast, because I'm of the mind that, like, there should be way more of this. Yeah. But to your point, if you look, if you can figure out, none of us can. Sure. That does check out. But I'm saying like, how do you, what's, if you, at NAA or any of these, at 12 Steps, there's one person shares three, or ten minutes, and then everybody else shares kind of like piggybacks on their theme. Or they don't have to, but they can't. What was your format? That was my problem. I could never nail down a format, but I did base it loosely on like the, like acceptance and commitment therapy. On the 48 Laws of Power. Yeah. Yeah, we'd all meet and think about how to dominate women psychologically. No, it was based on acceptance and commitment therapy, which is like a evolution of cognitive behavioral, which I never really liked CBT stuff that much. But the ACT, which is acceptance and commitment therapy, was more based in like a lot of mindfulness, a lot of like trying to like really pin down like what actually are your values and how do you get your behaviors to align with your values. And then what are the things coming up that are keeping your behaviors separate with your values like, you know, like that you're not being mindful of. Like how are you being steered away? You know, if you say, like, you know, you have kids and you don't want to drink all the time. Yeah. Your kids are clearly your values. What is getting in the way of that? And they do, I think, a really good job of illustrating that and giving people, like, tools and little things for, you know. That's ACT, is that what you call it? Yeah, acceptance and commitment therapy. It's really good. And so I would try to, like, take that information and, like, make a video, and then people could watch it, and we would just talk about the video kind of thing. And then they could bring in personal stuff. You would make the video? Yeah, I have a bunch of videos on it, yeah. Welcome to Psych Nall's Mindfulness and Meditation module. This is the Psych Nall Temple, so just relax. Take it easy. Are they well-produced, or it's just you doing a lot of work? It's so bad. It's just me, manic, and, like, during COVID, and sweatpants with bed hair, like, and then another thing. It's like you talk about Fauci every once in a while. Yeah, and they're trying to. Yeah, this motherfucker. But it was cool. The cool thing I will say is, like, even, like, touring after that, I've had people come up to me before and, like, dude, those videos were super helpful and blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, well, that's nice, you know. That's an interesting idea that your values, that the unhappiness or uneasiness in people comes from when their actions don't meet their values. Is that kind of the basis of it? That's a part of it. Because then there's like mindfulness, there's like, what is the one thing they call it? Being like cognitive, they call it psychological flexibilities, like the five-point skill set you need to get, But then there's a term called, I don't forget that, it's cognitive something, but it's like the lack of ability to see your thoughts as just thoughts, and how able are you to experience a thought and just let it pass versus it being literally like, this is reality unfolding before my eyes and my thoughts are. That's the whole thing. Me and my girlfriend talk about this endlessly. Yeah. And the issue is, in the last 15, 20 years, feelings are their, like, messages from God to people now. Like, I have to validate. Other people need to validate them. I need to honor them. It's just a fucking thing that's gonna change. Yeah, it's gonna pass. And, like, you can take it or leave it. Yeah, well, they do a good job in there, because, like, I think it's Stephen Hayes was a guy who kind of like, I think he was like, he's like the head of the ACT stuff. And he did a book and a workbook called Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life. And at some point they explain, they like give an example where like, you know, imagine this. They like show you how just a thought can affect your biology. And they like do this, look at this. And like eventually gets to like imagine like you're spitting saliva into a bucket and you're like, and then like you like, yeah, it's warm. And then you imagine drinking it. And you have like, people tend to have like a visceral reaction Same thing like puke. Imagine now drinking the bucket and you're like, you can almost feel your body react to it. And they like, yeah, that's your thoughts. For some reason, affect your physiology to make them feel like it's real because your reaction to them are real. But the thought and the interpretation of what's occurring aren't necessarily real. So learning how to like sit with that discomfort so that you don't get like hooked into your almost instinctual behavior pattern that kind of dictates, you know, your behavior in often a destructive way versus like sitting in that and then just like trying to steer yourself towards acting despite the way you feel, which leads to kind of a better life. And you were doing sermons. There's no other word for them. That's the other thing too. I didn't want it to feel like that where it was like, you know. And you're throwing glasses every once in a while. Oh, yeah. But I was always open about that. I'd always be like, dude, I'm a spaz. Like, I need this as much as anybody. So it was never like, guys, I figured it all out. At least I hope not. Like, I figured all this stuff out. It was like, follow me. But it was like, no, I'm struggling severely. And what is the, what's your biggest day-to-day, like, issue? I've made a ton of progress, honestly, because before it would be like, there's a big thing with, like, my wife. There's some reason, like, me and, like, romantic relationships, I can get very spun out easily if, like, like, here's the thing, for instance, if my wife would be upset, You know, sometimes women just wake up and they're just fucking pissed. It hasn't been my experience, but go ahead. I take that personally. For some reason. If, like, if I'm with my wife and she's not... If she's, like, expressing that she's not feeling well... It's a total lack of gratitude. It fucking pisses me. For some reason, I'm like, well, knock it the fuck off and feel well. When you feel bad, it gives me a bad feeling, so fucking fix that shit right now. And I've learned to just be like, that's all right, you know, you're not feeling well. And if I feel some kind of way about it, I'm just kind of like, that's my problem, And I let her, you know, just leave her alone and just let her do her thing. It's hard. It's hard. I don't like it, man. It freaks me out. It's hard because it's not chivalry. Yeah. You know what I mean? Not like you and I are the most, but it's these lessons of what a good man is and all this shit. And you're like, you're kind of responsible. Yeah, exactly. For their emotional state. Kind of. Yeah, that's how I felt. but and then it's almost like you like try to help and they're like I don't want your help and you're like well fucking now you're pissed at me what the fuck did I do trying to help you so I've learned to just be like you know hey man take your time figure your shit out you know and I had to really come to grips with the fact and this was actually like really helpful we both have aura rings which track track your sleep and stress level and I love that kind of stuff and my wife at first was like that's dumb I don't know why you're doing that and then she finally got one because it helps women track their cycles. And, dude, for me, this was a huge eye-opener. But we woke up the one morning, and we both had them on, and my readiness score was like 85. It was great. It's who you are. It was awesome. Exactly. I'm a B student. I'm perfectly ready. And we both got the same sleep, and she woke up, and hers was like 50. It's like 0 to 100. She was 50. And I'm like, dude, we both got eight hours of sleep. What's the matter? And she's like, oh, it's just like my period's coming up. And I was like, that's how bad that fucks you up? I had like a quantifiable, because my 50 is like a hangover after drinking. Yeah. So I was able to be like, that's how bad you fucking feel? Because I at least had some tethered. I'm surprised it's that high. Do you know what I mean? Like my experience, there's a, my girlfriend recommends, she's a therapist, recommends to her female clients, it's a book called Period Power about like what you're going to feel like by day in terms of your cycle. I'm going to write that down. Yeah, that's because I feel like they're almost like my uncles with dust masks about their period. They're like, I'm fine. And you're like, you're not. You are fucking rocked right now. It's a great analogy. Also, it's I have another observation about it, which is there is a medical thing that schizophrenics have that tells them they don't have schizophrenia. Whoa. that women have, I believe, about their period. They do. They can't acknowledge it. Their body tells them they're, like, not only are you not, you've never been healthier, even though you're about to start your period in two days. Like, it tricks them into ignoring it. Dude, you're so right, because they don't want it. No, I looked it up, because I noticed it 25 years ago, and I've, like, it's a theory I've been building, and now I've located that there is an actual phenomenon within paranoid schizophrenia. Whoa, that makes so much sense because, yeah, I don't know why, like, it's almost to the point where I'm like, are you fucking with me? She's like, I just don't know what's going on, and I'm like, dude, you're starting your period. What are you talking about? This happens every fucking month. How are you not aware of this? And it's just like, don't have to be an asshole about it. You're just fucking mean to me. Shane did a joke about it. You know that I smoke crack for one week every month. And then one day you see me outside butt naked and timbalish trying to sell a refrigerator door. You're like, Che, you smoking crack this week? Why would you ask me that? But me getting the metrics were huge when I was able to go, oh, okay. There's a tracker that my girlfriend's shared with me. Yeah, the Flow app. Yeah, that you can, like, I can, I have a membership that I can observe. You should get an email, yeah. I mean, basically. That'd be nice. Yeah. This year I've just learned about luteal phase. That's the big word for me right now. She's like, well, I'm in my luteal phase. What is that? Just when they're mean. I don't know. Oh, got it, got it, got it. It's like that's the pre-descent into the period. Because there's the week of the period, but then there's the pre-period, which is their body gearing up. So it's really like luteal, I think, is when it's just starting to. This is mansplaining, I guess, but it's defensive. We're defensively mansplaining. We're trying to understand man standing, maybe? That is man standing, for sure. I think we're doing man stands right now. We're like trying to understand what's happening. It'd be funny if you got an email and it was like things not to bring up that day. Yeah. Your past. Yeah. No, dude, I mean, I've talked to my wife about this where it's like, you know, I get it. I get it from a female perspective to go, I can't believe you guys talking about periods. But it's like, hey, you know, we're dealing with the force of that as well differently, obviously. I'm not trying to go, I'm not, we're not going like, and they're assholes and it's, we're just going like, we're trying to understand it. Yes. For man's time. Why they're assholes. Yeah. No, but it's really, it's a thing. You have to deal with it and it's, you know, it can be touchy or come off as dismissive, but it's a real thing. And I'm happy that my wife got that ring and now she knows, she goes, it's coming. I go, all right, I'll brace myself. And then I have, I can be like, all right, if you're a little grumpy, I know why. It's not me. Yeah. Let me know if you need to. And then you won't get pissed. You won't. I mean, that's the thing. it's hard not, it's, if you're, as a guy, if you're kind of responsible for your partner's moods, which I kind of think is the deal. Yeah. I think that's sort of the training, right? Like, that's the new. I feel like one-offs, I can see people saying, like, well, no, it's not you. It's like, okay, maybe one day, but if they're like, I fucking hate my life, and yeah, you're with them, how else are you going to take that? It's like, well, fuck, all right. Yeah, like, I'm a big part of that. That might be a big reason you hate your life, too. And it's kind of like, yeah, it's your, whoever's in the worst mood in the relationship, that's the mood. Yes. You can't be like, well, best of luck. Yeah, my day's, I'm killing it today. So you have my empathy. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform, guys, It's designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and get paid, baby, all in one place. All right, guys, I use Squarespace. It's another one of these things. Been using it. They could sense it, maybe? And they were like, we got to work with this kid. 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It's got everything you, you know, you've seen on websites. You can get it. You can build it on Squarespace. Literally, you can set your store up. You can, I mean, literally you can set up a live. I mean, there's, you can't, there's nothing you can't do on here right now. Head to squarespace.com slash N-E-A-L to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code N-E-A-L. Can you believe it? Go there now. It's great. It's Squarespace. It's famous. It's great. You ever Wikipedia me? Were you surprised by how old I am? I don't think I look as old as I am, but I'm starting. My credits are getting real long in the tooth. I wrote a movie that was shot on film and it wasn't like an artistic choice. It was that long ago. So bubs, one of the ways that I, I take, you know, I'm not afraid of a supplement. Neil, collagen? Yeah, collagen. And guys, you can worry about your skin. It's okay. It's not, it's not sissified. It's still manly. Men have good skin. What else? 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I'm looking and feeling like I'm in my twenties again. Am I right, girlfriend? And it's super easy to use. Just mix Bubs into your coffee, smoothie, or juice each morning. It's tasteless, odorless, and dissolves instantly. Here's the call to action. live better longer and kick 2026 off the right way bubs is running a huge new year new you sale plus for a limited time only our listeners are getting 20 off at bubs naturals by using n-e-a-l at checkout just head to bubsnaturals.com and use code n-e-a-l and you're all set after you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them our show set you. I have a I have another book you have that I want to get to. Well, the directionlessness. Yeah. Was that current or that's just happened? It's been my whole life, honestly. You just had no direction. No plan. I've had no plan my whole life. Do you have goals? Not really. I mean, yeah, I do, but they're not like, um, they're more like super long-term, end-of-life stuff, if that makes sense. What are they? Just for like my kids to have a happy life and for them not to be like, I fucking hate that guy. So that's a big thing. but um what about why do you start doing stand-up honestly i i used to i remember liking it as a kid i would watch like comic remix on on comedy central yeah i actually did catch some comic view i just remember as like a little kid watching comedy central and being like i could probably do that just like as a little kid weirdly and then um i just remember you know i always made people laugh in school and then like my family is funny like my brothers are funny like they you know, they're just funny. Like it was, uh, but I remember like a distinct moment when I was outside, just like smoking weed with my friends and like, I was just talking and they were laughing. Like it was just, it kept happening. And then I was in college and I was like, I'm going to try standup actually. Cause it was like in the back of my mind somewhere, but I didn't have like a con, I didn't know. I was like, you know, I was going to school to be a psychologist and I was like, I'm going to be a businessman. And then, uh, I was just like, let me try that. So it was almost like a weird like urge that was finally like yeah i think i'm gonna do this and i did it and i just liked it and was like but i would do it i would stop i would do it and stop i would you know i would do like three months i'd stop for three months i'd do it for nine months stop for a year and i just would go back and forth while trying to be like you know what i'm gonna live a normal life i'm not gonna do this and it would just that would blow up and i would just stand up again so what it wasn't there's no like grand no plan no not at all it was really more so centered around avoiding a job that I hated. I mean, avoidance is a direction. It really is. I've been propelled away. I've taken great pains to avoid. Yeah, away is a direction. So what do you, do you still feel like, just like, I don't know, see what happens? Sort of, in a way. I have a little more direction now, but I remember as a kid, I was like, I want to wear, my big goals for myself were I want to wear sweatpants every day and I don't want to wake up to an alarm clock. I wanted to wear sneakers tomorrow. That was my first one. That was a big one for me. And I remember I got the sweatpants dream as a weed dealer, and I was like, it's not that cool wearing sweatpants all the time. I was like, I thought it would be better. And now everybody wears sweatpants all the time. Now everybody wears sweatpants. Yeah, now they have, like, casual, you know, whatever. But the, uh, but no, then I remember just being like, you know, I guess I'll try to do stand-up and make a living out of this, and I was like, damn, this is hard. And then we did the podcast, and we just started getting paid for it, thank God. And I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. But I was always ready for it to just kind of, like, explode. and just, no, I can't explode in terms of like no money. Yeah. You know? Yeah, and then that took off and I was like, shit, I guess I'll do this until, you know, I can't. But I've started to really enjoy just the whole thing because stand-up was just such a weird thing for me because it was like I didn't necessarily, I didn't feel like the huge kind of driving force to be like I want everyone to know who I am. I didn't really care about that that much. But I also, you know, I'd like to be paid for it and like do it as a job. But then I started to get, when I started featuring, I just started getting an icky feeling around a lot of headliners because they would come in and I'd be like, what the fuck's this guy's problem? He's making all this money and he's just so sad, it seems like. And I'd watch different headliners bicker with each other. I've seen a couple of little ego battles where it's like, who reps you? Oh, yeah, they rep me too. Oh, yeah, oh, I know that. And I would just watch this being like, I don't like this at all. But then, you know, I kept getting paid to do it. And I eventually was like, I was going to quit and just do become a therapist. But the podcast, while I was studying to become a therapist, the podcast kept going so good because it was like attached to Shane's kind of celebrity. And it just became, I was like, fuck it, I'll just do this until I can. And then it just keeps going kind of well. And I'm like, all right, well, nice. That's a good attitude to have. Yeah, but now I actually genuinely like it because there was like a switch that flipped in my head, like, where I was like, you know what, dude, like, you know, get out of your head about all this shit. just like as hokey as it sounds like just try to make people laugh people need to laugh do your best to do that and don't take yourself so seriously and I actually just I have a good time okay this is the one I wanted to get to yeah dissociation yeah that's my main that's my that's my man yeah that's my jam man that's what I learned out about in therapy when I was like I don't really feel anything ever and they're like oh okay what I because I need the history and I I need the realization and I need the what's dissociation. What's dissociation and what's watching your thoughts and what's Buddhism? Okay so I could say in a nutshell it like you still if you like a Buddhist you still feel things but you learn how to not let that kind of dictate your behavior in life If you dissociated you don feel the things really Or you do like in spurts Like I would still feel like anxiety and stuff. But like. Thank God. Yeah, thank God. Yeah, thank God. Anxiety and anger was kind of all I had. But the, yeah, like it would be like, like, you know, I remember when my, one of my brothers had their first kid and I would like walk in and be like, oh, there's my nephew. And I was, you know, still kind of young. and I'd be like, and it would just be, that experience for me was just me being like, yep, that's my nephew, I'm an uncle now, and I was just narrating what was happening with just zero feeling whatsoever. And then, like, you know, every single, like, you go through a wedding, you feel nothing the day of, you don't really feel much. Yours? Yeah, like the day. Not a good sign, but it was just, it wasn't like I was, like, mad or anything. Yeah, you didn't want to be there. People still are like, how are you excited about this and that? I'm like, no, I don't really feel anything about it, But then I'll watch a Pixar movie and I'll cry my eyes out. If I see Up, I'm like, oh, my God. But it would just be major life events where I'd just go, well, here I am again, on to the next college graduation, totally flat, nothing, just literally nothing at all, besides dread and anxiety every now and again. Do you see it as connected to a panic attack? Yeah, because, well, yes. Is it like none and then too much? Yes, nothing, and then it's just like, oh, here's all that at once. And I also started getting a lot of, it was like dissociation and depersonalization are two different things, but they're kind of similar. When I first started getting really bad anxiety, I would like walk around and you just feel like you're in a movie. You feel like nothing's real. You're walking around people's face. Everything has like a surreal aspect to it in a really creepy, unsettling way. Like not in a visual distortion? Yes, very much, where you're kind of looking and everything has kind of a weird kind of glow, and it's just like, it's hard to explain, but I remember reading about that and like, oh, that's what it is. I thought I was just really vibing on some tunes, and I was like, damn, I feel like I'm in a music video right now. This is before Mushrooms, after Mushrooms, or both? I don't know. I started smoking weed so young that it would be after technically, but it wasn't like, it was more tied to the panic attacks where it was just like, you start having them, then you start being like, what if I get another one? Oh, shit, am I getting another one? Oh, it would suck if I got one here. And you're almost always adrenalized where I think something happens where your vision just kind of gets— I guess your body's like, yeah, like, where's—we got to go into, like, you know, super slow motion video game mode so we can see this tiger that's apparently going to kill us. So what did you do about it? So you read about it. I read about it. Which was the first one where you were like, I'm not depersonalized—or you were depersonalized. I had a vague... I was... There were a couple... It was a couple of days, and then it ended up being a year and a half of like... Huh? Yeah, like, what the fuck's going on? It was a really bad week, and then I got a little bit better every day. Yeah. But so I'm wondering... It wasn't exactly depersonalized. I knew who I was. I just didn't understand why our stairs. Yeah. No, my thing was I'd get POV mode where I'd see my hands and I'd be like, these are my hands? I'd be like, all right, this is, it would feel alien to me. Everything would feel alien and just not, I'm like, that's not mine. It just felt really weird. But I just kind of dealt with it, you know, just kind of kept working on the construction site. Huffing the fumes, yeah. It wasn't until I really, like, you know, I went to social work school and I'm like, all right, I'll go to a therapist who I think I'm about to wow with all of my, even despite. Did you ever try to, like, run and pass somebody? Like, hey, when you're, do you ever look at your hands and go, these are my hands? Or, like, catch the tip of your nose, and you're like, whoa, fuck. But the, no, it was when I started talking to this therapist lady, I was, like, kind of like, yeah, man, it's sick. Like, I don't ever feel anything. Everyone's got all these problems. I don't have any, so I don't feel anything. And she was like, yeah, that's not good. And I was like, what? And then, and she kind of just, like, explained it more where it was like, yeah, like, that is, that's this, and, you know, this is actually a thing. And, you know, it's kind of a weird thing, too, because, like, they've done studies with kids because a lot of kids, if you go in a school setting, you're like, all right, the kids who are, like, crazy and, you know, misbehaving, they're the kids who have problems and you treat them. Yeah. Someone did a cortisol test on, like, every kid, and then you'd see kids who were super quiet, but their cortisol would be, like, 9 million because it's just some people just present it. Yeah. And it's also, too, I don't like, I'm not, like, presenting myself as, like, oh, you know, I'm suffering with, like, a disease or affliction. It was just like the way my mind was set up was kind of just like. So, yeah, you don't see it as like trauma-based or before and after or like because of this thing. Yeah, I don't really get kind of like lost in the sauce of that stuff. It's just kind of like I was able to find, because I always just had like a weird feeling, kind of like my whole life. Maybe everybody does. I don't know. But I just remember thinking like, damn, I feel kind of weird. And then just kind of like just going and going and going. And then, like, eventually, like, major milestones, like, you know, marriage, graduation, things happening. I just wouldn't feel anything. And I'm like, this probably isn't good. And then once I had a child. But you had the thing of, like, everybody's faking it. Kind of, yeah. Or I would just be like, what the fuck? What are their problems? People would have emotions. I'm like, yeah, stop having emotions. What are you doing? Like, why are you freaking out? Stop freaking out about it. Let's be clear. No one should think that graduating from college is an accomplishment. Good. that's good because I was not no one should cry let me be you should not cry you just paid for a thing and did some home like nothing happened yeah no I mean unless like your family was a litter unless you like it you're black in the 50s yes I agree or if or if you're about to taste that AC man that was a big thing my family was like go get it man 72 degrees how do you fucking take it in for all of us uh get a fucking summer cold yeah for all of us once i had a kid that like smashed that that was when i was like well it was like you did care you didn't care big time it was like cared like so much it was crazy facing my first child was like it felt like it just shattered like a pane of glass it was crazy in the first 10 seconds as soon as i saw her it was first it was like deja vu where i was like i know this person and that was like a weird and then it was just like this overwhelming sense of like immediacy and like just love. And I was like, this is amazing. Tell me about the I know this person. I don't know. I can't explain it, but I saw her face and I was like, because you think about them so much when they're in the womb and then you see their face and you're like, it was my first impression was like, I know you. And it was just kind of like, yeah, I got to like hold her and stuff right away. And it was, it was nice. Well, that's okay. So the idea that you know her, it's a it's maybe it's imaginary or it's kind of mushroom landy it's very hallucinogenic having a child's very psychedelic man that was the thing where it was like it feels it reminded me of that yeah there's certain shit in life that you kind of are like oh i'm in the fucking fabric of or the like whatever the of this. That's a good way to put it. And I don't it's I think I've been in love like I'm in love with my girlfriend in that way where it's like we're in I don't want to say the matrix because it's so corny but like we're in the consciousness. You gotta get out of the matrix right now. Bro do you have any fucking red pills bro? Did you bring my red pills? All I'm offering is the truth nothing more. That's a really nice way of putting it because yeah you're really But you're in the fabric of like consciousness in a way that is like drugs get sort of, they used to get like a sort of reduced rap of like, it's fucking go. And you'd go listen to me, whatever. And then you do seven grams. Yeah. Or you do, but there, I've done enough ayahuasca and all that shit that it's you, I, it's, and it's not that different from the dissociation. it's all to me it's all sort of uh non-linear and non uh physical yeah no that makes sense for me if i say you know if i'm saying this correctly the association stuff is more like almost like a cold clinical perspective where i'd be like right this is what's happening now and i'd be like okay and you know you're almost like narrating it like point by point almost you're dealing with everything theoretically whereas you're saying right actually being in like you know the you know the heat or spiritual whatever you want yeah yeah if you want to be like i'm totally detached which you know again i have i don't know i think that can be kind of a weird way to interpret it all that stuff but but yeah no that that was something that really like kind of shattered the glass for me and it was just kind of like it was i was just truly because that was the whole thing i don't really think i've had like those at least a positive like fall to my knees positive experience i've had like you know like you know uh totally gripped with anxiety and anger that i've had like a full body experience but i didn't really have like a full body happiness experience and that for me was just like and it was also kind of scared but it was just like you know it's just amazing and then it really like i don't know it just did something really where it was like it just made me just more in touch with just everything in general like you're saying like when i had the anxiety at first and i'm like oh people have feelings then you have kids you're like oh everyone someone else's kid and you know like if someone was mean to my kid i'd be very upset about that so let me be nice to other people who are just other people's kids yeah yeah yeah just you know and did you very grounding did you with the second one did you know her also they both they looked like twins when they were born so it wasn't for me it was more of like a deja vu like what did you just say nothing just a little deja vu whoa and with her it was just like hell yeah, because I was already ready for that. Did it feel like you were always supposed to have this child? Or you always knew you were going to have this child? It wasn't even like that. It wasn't even that deep or anything. It was just me being like, you know when you run into someone, you kind of know. You're like, I know you. It was just that feeling. And then it was just like, I love you so much. It usually means they were on law and order. True. Yeah, true. I'm the man you're looking for. Yeah, it was just like, I remember that was my first impression. And then I was just, yeah, and then you're just like, oh my God, I love you so much. And then you're like, oh, shit, I'm in charge of your mental well-being. You're like, oh, Jesus Christ. And then, you know, you just freak out and you don't stop. And did it motivate you? Did that give you direction? It did, yeah. It was just for at least like not even direction. Because I would like do stuff and be like, is this all I'm going to do? And now if I like as long as I kind of keep, you know, them in like a comfortable, safe environment, I can at least be like, well, if I do this, this is good. and you know even if I like feel like there should be something else or there's more to stuff I can kind of rest easy being like yeah man like this is kind of what you got to do and then you know if that doesn't give you like total personal fulfillment you can totally figure that out but for me it was more of like a the personal fulfillment idea was more of like like an alarm where I was like I need to figure this out or else I'm gonna explode and now I'm kind of just like whatever could you get personal fulfillment from something if you didn't care about it but it was good for them like a check for a thing you didn't want to do yeah i'm not even saying like the saudi arabia account i'm just saying like that's the obvious one but i'm saying like i get that thing of of uh like making decisions that will benefit them yeah is it is it that direct Can you like circumvent yourself and just be like, no, this is good for them. I don't even, I'm just almost like asleep because it's so good for them. This isn't even for me. Yeah. I mean, that's like a slippery slope because it's like, I don't know if it's a slippery slope, but like I remember because I would feel conflicted because it's like, well, I make enough money technically on the podcast where I don't really have to tour for standup. Yeah. But then I wanted to. It was like, I want to do comedy and I want to, you know, keep going. And I remember like feeling extreme guilt around like leaving to do standup when like, you know, technically i didn't really have to because the podcast covers my bills you know and way more but it's like so i remember like wanting to do it and then being like well it'd be good for them overall and like you know i was like i was leaving when we were like moving to texas from philly they came and took all of our stuff and i'd always be like yo we need stuff that's why i work it's for you guys blah blah blah then they took all of our stuff like a week before to like drive it as we were flying and uh my kids were just so happy we had no stuff and i was like yeah this is just for I'm just doing it for my ego. But they were happy in what way? They could run around the house unobstructed because we had literally no stuff in our house. They were like, yeah, this is awesome. We had no couches. Like, everything was gone. Yeah. So they got, it was like fun for them. Yeah. When I'd been like, this is why I work, because you guys need couches and blah, blah, blah. But the thing I've arrived at is like, yeah, it's good to do stuff for your kids. It's good to put them first, all that stuff, in terms of like, you know, you can't just like ignore them. That'd be terrible. But also, like, I have to do a thing that makes me a happy human being, because if I'm just miserable, to be like, well, that way, you know, I've become an accountant, so that way I'm around every day. I'd be fucking miserable, and I'd be mean to them. So you have to kind of find a balance where, like, you know, for me, it's like, you know, I'm going to do the things that make me happy, but also be, like, very conscious of the time we get to spend together. And I want to, like, structure things so, like, I'm only away for a couple days max at a time, rather than being like, yeah, I'm gone for a month, catch you later. Yeah, it's also— It would just kill me. I can't do that. Yeah. Doesn't kill everybody. Yeah, I know. That's the big thing of like you still, you can't be like, you know, nail yourself to a cross and be like, I'm going to give up everything. Because then you're just going to resent them years later. And they're going to be like, I didn't ask you to do that. Yeah. You're like, yeah, but your fucking eyes did. Remember when you were a baby and you cried in front of me? Things that your life, do you think your life's improved? Big time. Huge, hugely, like massively, honestly. And how much of it was just circumstance and how much of it was from your actions? It was a combination, because that's the thing, too. I don't want to, like, fall into the thing where, like, hey, guys, relax, life's great. They're like, yeah, but you have a bunch of fucking money in your community, and it's, like, true. But I will say, to answer the question, it's like, you know, there's a book I read, it's called Money and the Meaning of Life, and the thing the guy says, it's kind of blunt, he's like, hey, you don't know what money can't buy until you can't buy it. You got to have enough money to know what money can't buy, and it's like, you know, okay, fair enough. But when they look at you and go, yeah, but you have money. Like, you can be really miserable with a lot of money. Totally possible. It's like, that's not even debatable. And that's also a weird place to be in. And it's like, there are the intangibles that kind of define your life and happiness, whether you have money or don't have money or whatever, you know, podcast that's doing well. Where, like, that stuff doesn't touch the other stuff. Like, the material success doesn't touch. There's an area that cannot touch and never will touch. and you know the material success helps hugely where you can kind of chill you're not you know you have like a boss riding down your back all the time so that's a massive w in terms of like how you feel every day but it's it's not everything at least for me it's not and you know so they go hand in hand man and it's also like you know i've i've you can also with material success you know crash into, you know, like, figuratively or literally, like, crash pretty badly. So it's like, you know, it goes in tandem, because it's like, if you have success, it almost, like, opens up the world in a way where it's, like, almost uncomfortable. And if you don't know how to, if you don't really know yourself, you can do, like, some bad stuff and, like, really humiliate yourself or, like, just do, like, horrible stuff. Well, it's similar to the anger thing, where you go, like, I'm sup- I guess I'm sup- I earned this right to do some douchey shit. I'm supposed to or something like. Exactly. This is part of the package now. Yeah. You know, drop a TV out, do heroin and have sex with, you know, a billion people. And, yeah, which, you know, I was married. I was married when it all came off, so I didn't get to do any cool stuff. But the, but no, it's kind of just like, you know, learning how to kind of just be like responsible for yourself and everyone around you. And like, you know, a lot of people think like if only I had, you know, if I was, you know, famous, everything would be cool. It's like, no, dude, your problems would be magnified. And then under the scrutiny of every single person and, you know, pray that you're doing something that's not horrible. So everyone's going to go, oh, look at that. You're actually a piece of shit. Thank God every day you're not our level of fame. You wouldn't last a minute at this altitude. Yeah, for real. With your fucking little gas mask. I'm not referring to myself, but it's like, you know, I don't know. It's too late. It already went out. It already aired. But the material is a component. I don't want to downplay it and be like, what the fuck are you guys all sad about? It's weird. It's like, go fuck it. It's easy. Yes. Everybody says money's not the answer. We all know that. But we go, you know what? Let me make sure. Yeah, exactly. Let me just go make sure it's not the answer. It is for a lot of things. It is the answer for a bunch of shit. my experience is if you if to use the aura ring thing if you have a if your stress generalized stress level is 80 right if you have money you're just gonna still be at 80 about other shit exactly is what happened yeah you know for sure you'll yeah you'll be like this fucking then you're worried about people coming and taking your money or the government or the or this my ex-wife or the then it just becomes like the key is just to work on your fucking nervous system yeah yeah exactly and then you can go from there but like yeah there's the old saying it's a i think a schopenhauer it's uh what is what do you say here we money money's like seeing making the jerk off saying it's a good saying i look i don't mean to name drop money but it was arthur schopenhauer i believe if you ever dream. But no, money's like salt water. The more you drink, the thirstier you become. Yeah. And that can kind of get you to where you get real greedy and you become, you know, but I don't know, man. It's just one of those things where it's like... I thought The Weeknd said that. I'm kidding. It sounds like... Money is like salt water. The more you drink, the thirstier you become. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just sounds like a week. Let me drop you up in here, dude. Come on. This is as cool as I'll get to feel, but yeah it's uh yeah i really just wanted the the main thing i think about that is like it's yeah obviously it creates it solves a lot of problems we have it's like little tickets for things you want great if you have more tickets you get more things you want that's obviously going to relieve a lot of stress but the problem comes in when you're like you're trading in the tickets and then the things you thought you wanted they just feel empty then you feel empty and you're like well i did the thing that i thought would solve all my problems and it didn't you can even and get almost more hopeless in that scenario. You probably are wrong about what you're, why you're doing the things you are doing. Yeah, and honestly, what I found is like when it, I'm not just saying this, I get the most charge and bang for my buck in terms of like things I'm doing and why. If I do stuff for other people, I get a better feeling than if I get something cool for myself. And I've literally tested this out. I've had, I remember I won like a long time ago, 20, whatever it was, 2013 or 14. I won Philly's Funniest, which is like, you know, if you're an open micro in Philly, it's like, oh my God. I'm a middle. You literally, you're a host. You get to host. I get to host. And you were like, I have arrived. And I remember like, you know, you win and you're like, that's a cool feeling. And then I worked in social work briefly. And I remember I got a guy who was like, you know, he was in a bad spot. I got him an apartment for him and his kids. And it was like, you know, he had. Paid for it or you like did the paperwork? Half the year was paid for. But it was like, no, but it was like, it was like a nonprofit I worked for. where people got out of jail, and you had to, like, negotiate with landlords. You'd be like, rent this guy an apartment. And he was up against some stuff that, like, he needed an apartment for, you know, custody stuff. You'd make the guy who just got out of jail wait in the car and be like, look, I'll handle it. It's all cold calls. It's all cold calls, and I'm calling and being like, hey, well, you know, I got a tenant for you. Half the year is paid. They're like, yeah, tell me more. And I'm like, just got out of jail. They're like, wah! So you've got to do a lot of that back and forth. I remember it was coming down to the wire, and they were trying to throw this guy. The place I was at was like, ah, we have a place for him. And it was in like Kensington with like needles everywhere. And he had kids and he was like, I do not want to live there. And I was like, I got you, brother. And we were coming up to a deadline. So it was like getting kind of, you know, it was a big deal for him. And I remember I finally got a landlord to say yes. It was in like a, you know, somewhat safe area, way safer and nicer area than the thing the place was trying to put him at. And it was like as soon as the guy said yes, come by, we'll sign the papers, me and him in an office. And it was just like we just high five. And it was like such an incredible feeling. And I remember being like, damn, that felt as good as winning what I thought was like the most important thing in the world at the time. That for me, it was like an eye opener. I'd be like, damn, you can really make yourself feel good by doing nice stuff, too. It's a shame you've never done it again. I know. I quit. It was Matt McCusker. He's got a podcast and he's got a Netflix special. Good guy. Good episode. Interesting shit. Brought dissociation in. We love him for it. Matt McCusker. Thank you.