Gabfest Reads | From Busboy to Corporate Tool to Priest

Welcome to GabFest Reads for the month of February 2026. I'm John Dickerson, one of the hosts of the Slate Political GabFest. In this episode, I'll interview Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest, editor-at-large at America Magazine and founder of Outreach, an LGBTQ Catholic ministry. He is a prolific author, including being the author of the New York Times bestsellers, The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything, and Learning to Pray. He was the unofficial, and I suppose still is, chaplain to the Colbert Nation. His new book is Work in Progress, Confessions of a Busboy, Dishwasher, Caddy, Usher, Factory worker, bank teller, corporate tool, and priest. I interviewed Father Martin for the National Writers Series in Traverse City, Michigan, and I thought GabFest listeners would enjoy our conversation. So no more palaver from me. Here is my conversation with Father Martin. Hello, everyone. Hello, Father Martin. How are you? Good, John. How are you? I'm fine. A tiny bit of housekeeping here for everyone. First of all, having grown up raised by the Jesuits and with a mother who was a devout Catholic, I am going to occasionally call Father Martin Jim. And so I hope that's OK with members in our audience or else I'll be Father Martining him all night. Hi, Jim. Where are you coming to us from tonight? I am coming to you from New York, which is not too far from where you are coming from. I want to try and experiment, Jim. All right. We are standing, you and me. We've taken a time traveling. We're in a time machine. And we are watching a young Jimmy Martin bus tables at the Ice Cream Inn. So if you could watch him from afar, as you did in writing this, describe to us what you see. Gosh, that's a great question. I see a skinny kid with a lot more hair, a lot of red hair, wearing a white spattered smock and flared blue jeans and Adidas sneakers, trying his best to keep up with the demands of being a busboy in a dishwasher because I was both. You bust the tables, then you brought them back into the kitchen and washed. And also probably trying his best to fit in. That was one of my great goals, as I say in the book, of trying to be liked. So I think I'd have a lot of compassion for that kid. And I feel that I still do. And was that kid thinking about God in any way? No. That kid went to church, you know, because he thought it was the right thing to do. And that I had a kind of transactional model of God back then. If I did the right thing, that God would reward me with whatever, you know, home run in Little League or straight A's or puppy or something like that. But no, I wasn't thinking about that. But I was really thinking, as I say in the book, which is one of the themes about getting people to like me popular. I wanted to be popular and cool. I seem to have a knack of getting these summer jobs, though, where all the other kids were like two or three years older than I was. And, you know, that's an oceanic difference when you're in junior high school or high school. Sure. And they let you know, too. They weren't passive about it. No, I mean, most of the time they just ignored me. I was working at this place called The Ice Cream Inn. which to set it, it's outside of Philadelphia in a town called Plymouth meeting. And, you know, most of the older boys were, you know, cooks and whatnot, and they were not busboys and dishwashers in the low end of the totem pole. And the girls were older as well. So they weren't really paying attention to us younger busboys. We were somewhat anonymous and oftentimes neither did the patrons. You know, you're really on the low end of the of the ladder, the economic ladder. we're going to go through the eight uh jobs that are listed on the on the cover here um and and um you know you you well we'll get to the give us so let's go through the jobs and and this is a book of um uh as you write it's a spiritual journey um that we're all on this is your this is your story and the way in which you saw grace uh come through these different jobs and learn different things. So what'd you learn as a busboy dishwasher? Well, I learned what it was like to be on the receiving end of, I would say, mistreatment. The boss I had, Mr. Clare, was very kind and very nice. But the patrons often treated me like dirt and would yell at me and whatnot. I learned how to work hard. I learned how to show up on time. I learned how to ask when I didn't know how to do something. I don't know how to use this mop, basically. But yeah, it was the first sort of real job, as my parents called it. I was a paperboy and a lawnmower before, but this was a job where I had to get my working papers and I had to show up on time and I got a salary from someone that I didn't know. So it was my entree into the work. Come to think of it, my entree into the working world, which I'm still in 50 years later. Tell us briefly, Jim, the story of when you were a paperboard because um i mean newspapers themselves are uh going out of but the kind of thing you delivered which i remember well um exactly describe what it was and the economic model it operated well let me ask you because actually i don't i don't know outside of my world if is that a common model which i will describe is that a common model of sort of like you you deliver it and you get what okay yeah yeah i i delivered a small local paper called the recorder uh the Concha Hocken recorder in my town of Plymouth meeting. And I actually had to ask a friend of mine, a former street mate, the economic model, which was you, in a sense, purchased the papers, you delivered them, and then you could keep whatever you collected. So, you know, you could go to these, you know, I would go out for my collections with my little metal change thing on my belt and people didn't have to pay if they didn't want to. So I'd say I'm collecting for the recorder and they'd say, what's that? And I'd say, you get the recorder every week. I don't pay for that. I'm not paying for that. So it was a kind of exercise in frustration. And, you know, in addition to that, I was always getting chased by the 5,000 dogs that lived in our neighborhood. All the, ever seemingly every house had a German Shepherd. Yeah. I'm not sure why that was. Well, to chase away the person trying to get them to pay for the recorder. I mean, yeah, you were the appetizer, Jim. Right. So eventually, it's pretty funny. Eventually, I moved to a paper that, you know, actually you got paid for delivering. But, you know, it was not a particularly satisfying business model, I would say. And why were you working at this young age? Why weren't you staying at home reading ghost stories? Well, you know, I grew up in a family that we were not poor. I would say we were solidly middle class back then. And my parents instilled a really strong work ethic in my sister and me. And if I wanted any money to go out to the movies or whenever, buy records or something, I was expected to work. And I was also, I wanted to get rich. That was my pipe dream. I wanted to be rich. I thought, I remember thinking, boy, being rich must be the greatest thing in the world. You could do whatever you want. You could buy whatever you want and have whatever you want and go wherever you want. So I wanted to get rich. And yeah, that was my was one of my goals. But my parents were very, God bless them, very hard workers and also instilled in my sister and me the sort of capacity for hard work. The two epigraphs that I have at the beginning of the book, which came right from their mouths, my mother said, we're not going to sit inside all summer. That was one thing that I heard many times. And my dad, which is very famous in our family, of course, it's not fun. Why do you think they call it work? If it were fun, they'd call it play. And so, you know, get out and work. I don't know if that phrase is original to him, but we said it a lot growing up. And they and your father, I think it was also said it builds character, which in a way is what this book is. I mean, it's your spiritual formation, but it's also character is not just too distant from that. So before we get to the writing process for this, let's go through a couple of the other jobs. So you've been chased by dogs. You have to convince people to give their money for something they didn't buy. You've been abused as a busboy, a rite of passage, which entailed being thrown into a dumpster. So because you were seeking out greater degradation, you then became a caddy. That's right. I'm really enjoying this conversation, by the way. Were you ever a caddy, John? I was never a caddy. And I have, I guess, at times been caddy, but I was never a caddy. My cousin was a golf pro, Tommy. And my mom said, somewhat hopefully, why don't you call Tommy? this summer because after the ice cream in, which was the busboy job at 15, I said, I'm not staying inside anymore. I'm going outside. I want to get a job outside and get a tan and all this. And despite never having golfed and maybe having seen golf for 10 minutes, my dad was a big sports fan watching on TV. I thought I can be a caddy. And I think I was probably the world's worst caddy. I mean, I was polite and I loved the golf bags, but I did one round of golf with my golf pro cousin who said, you know, use this for that, use a nine iron for this. And, but other than the putter, the wedge and the driver, I really had no clue what club to give somebody, but you know, it was a job and I needed the money and I sort of put up with, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of I would say mistreatment from these pretty wealthy people at the Philadelphia Cricket Club, which is still a very Tony club. So it seems to me as someone who's advocated and, and speak so eloquently about the stranger and those who are not seen by society. You were basically a not seen except when you were getting yelled at as a caddy. Yeah. I mean, from time to time, the, the golfers were nice to you. You know, women in general, I know this sounds sexist, but the women in general were nicer. And my preferred loop was with a single bag, a woman with a single bag, right? Cause you was, you know, they would talk, but when I was out with men, And it was often businessmen and they weren't talking to me. They were talking about business and whatnot. And sometimes they just say, you know, hurry up, caddy, or give me my nine iron caddy. Or one of the things I describe is called cart caddying. And at least that's what we called it. There were two golfers in the front. There was a golfer in the back kind of hitching a ride on the back where two, I guess, where the golf bags would be and then another golf bag. And so you had to carry the extra golf bag and literally run behind them. And they thought it was hysterical. And I, you know, I mean, looking back now, that's something if I saw that today, I would think, you know, that's really kind of mean. You know, you're making the 16 year old kid kind of literally run behind you with a heavy golf bag and and they're laughing. Oh, he's he's gaining on us. He's gaining on us. So, you know, you learn to be sort of kinder to people who are in these service jobs. You really do. And I I often said to myself now that, I mean, as I said, there are people who are very nice to me. And the book is not this sort of endless litany of complaints. There are a lot of funny stories in there. But, you know, I would say to myself from time to time, I'm never going to treat people like this. Never. I also saw guys, you know, I felt sometimes I was more mature than some of the golfers because they acted like, you know, like children. Right, right. To write this book, you went, you were lucky enough to find, and as I recall, you were surprised to find, your journals. um what was that process like were you what was it like meeting the voice of yourself and what were you embarrassed by that voice did you what was your reaction i have them actually here i should probably have brought them out but uh uh it was shocking uh my mother lived in plymouth meeting after my dad died in 2001 for the next 10 years and when she was moving out of her house we sold the house i went through my desk it's the same desk that i had when i was a boy nothing changes in my house. And at the bottom of the top right drawer, I thought, what is this? And as soon as I touched them, I remembered, oh my gosh, I kept a journal when I was 15 in 1976 to record what I thought would be the monumentally historic events of the bicentennial. There's a lot of red, white, and blue ink. And I opened them up. I read them a couple of years ago and it was shocking, you know, John, because we all have sort of memories of what we were like, but they're really colored by, I mean, positive and negative. I think they're colored sometimes overly positively and overly negatively. You know, I was more this or less that. In any event, to meet yourself in an unmediated way was shocking, really shocking. And let me tell you, these are extensive journals. It's not like I just, I went to school and I got an A and a test. It's like two or three pages a day, you know? So I think, what was I like? I think I was really full of myself because, you know, I'm keeping a journal at 15. I think I was a little shallow. Uh, and I was really intent on, I mean, I wasn't a bad kid, but I was really intent on getting people to like me. So when I'm elected student council president, it's, it's a, you know, it's like a full page of scrawl, you know, I'm so happy and 3000 exclamation points. And, uh, you know, so I'm not, um, what is it Samuel peeps or I'm not and you know and and glad you you're glad you're not he was a he didn't behave himself he wasn't right that's true too but I'm not I'm also not you know like St Augustine or St Paul so I think what was also interesting is historic events kind of intrude sometimes just as like an aside like you know Richard Nixon resigns and President Gerald Ford visits the Plymouth Meeting Mall But the bicentennial was for that year really the center I mean, interestingly, it was a great resource because I was able to draw from it and say, this is what happened and this is what I said and this is what I felt. And, you know, you don't need any. I mean, it's like having a, you know, kind of stenographer there when I was 15. I was seeing myself in so much of it, so many of the stories you told, because it reminded me of my growing up in McLean, Virginia, and particularly because my mother decorated my room in red, white and blue for the Bicentennial, which included a Bicentennial bedspread on both of my beds with a map of the colonies and all the original colonies. And I had a red desk and blue shag carpet. I mean, no, isn't it? You know, it's funny. I had one of those, I had a bedspread similar to that. It had an eagle on it. And I think it was, you know, it's funny. It sounds like we're talking about, you know, 1800, but the people were, I think, very excited about the bicentennial. And I was, every time I give talks, people say, I remember that. And I had this and I had that. And, you know, my composition books were filled with doodles, you know, bicentennial themed doodles. And it was kind of an exciting time And it did make you proud to be, you know, an American. So just to kind of grab a few things that you've said, because I want to ask questions about them later. But I mean, you were you wanted to be liked. You want you were fearful of not being liked and you want to be rich. And so you went through you had a series of other summer jobs for the purpose of earning money. Then you were lucky enough to get into Wharton. and describe, if you would, the job that you got coming out of Wharton. And at the same time, if you wouldn't mind, just update us on where you are spiritually when you come out and head into, and again, you and I had the exact same experience, dropping off the resume in the little place, the little slots. And then magically, a person would call you and fly to New York for an interview with an investment bank. So tell us what kind of job you got and where you were spiritually at that point. That's exactly. And it did feel like magic. So I went to the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business. In terms of my spirituality, I was still a sort of desultory Catholic. A good friend of mine had died in a car accident, which I talk about in the book. And that prompted me to sort of withdraw from belief for about six months. But I came back after a friend, you know, sort of intervened and helped me to see God in a different way. But I was still just a sort of, I would say, superficial Catholic. Then I went to mass most Sundays when I wasn't hungover. But really, being in New York, working at GE and starting in 1982, this is the age of Reaganomics and the yuppie. I was a yuppie, like all my other friends. The focus was on the job and having fun. It wasn't on getting to heaven. I mean, I was a good person. And I wasn't mean and I wasn't a complete, you know, kind of rapacious capitalist. But it was on making money and moving up on the corporate ladder. And it was very exciting. Let me tell you. I talk about that, going to the different clubs and all these different bars that you probably remember. Yeah. The Lionel Light, which was a bar that was in a church. That's right. I found very risque. You mentioned that you weren't a bad person, but you write that or you describe the times when you're a GE and being on Wall Street as a time when your concern for the poor was. and I think this is your word, non-existent. Is that, you weren't mean, but you were focused elsewhere. Yeah, I mean, I would give homeless people money, right? And I would give money into the collection plate. But, you know, the idea that I was interested in social justice or I just wasn't. I had gone to Wharton and look, I know this strikes a lot of people as surprising, but I'm still a capitalist, right? Right now, I still believe that, you know, capitalism is the most efficient way of distributing goods and services. That is, I just believe that, but it's not perfect and it leaves people out and you do need a safety net and you do need social justice and you need people who are working for the common good. Those are all things that I was not able to see when I was at Wharton, certainly because we didn't talk about that. And certainly at GE, you know, because it was all about, you know, pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and, you know, you make your own way. And then GE became in the 80s under Jack Welsh, you know, much more cutthroat, even more than it had been before. So no, I was, I wasn't mean. And I thought that, you know, you should help the poor, but I certainly wasn't, you know, trying to change any sort of systems at GE. Now, somebody who's listening is going, wait a minute, you're supposed to be a reporter. And he said the word hungover, and you haven't brought that up again. A priest is talking about being hungover. One of the things that strikes me about this book father is a lot of it is uh i did not come into the world as a jesuit priest and let me prove it to you you uh you enjoyed a drink uh or two yeah and and a joint or two or three or four um and that would usually be one weekend um no i mean like everybody else i mean all my friends a lot of my friends you know good friend of mine i won't say who you know as a U.S. attorney. A friend of mine owns a business, another friend of mine, et cetera, et cetera, a physician. So at the time, at least, and I know probably now, college kids get drunk and high and whatnot, and I certainly did. And I did all sorts of other things in New York. I think it was important to put that story in because otherwise it whitewashes everything. And that's just who I was. And that actually sort of formed me, kind of reflecting on those kinds of things. But I also made the joke that if I left that out, my friends would say, you know, you're leaving something out. And is it also the case that this is kind of the way it is with everybody, which is to say that there are rarely, there aren't many people who begin life on a spiritual path that is within the perfect confines of the guardrails and then just basically live a saintly life all the way through. That people come to it in different ways and that your story helps illustrate that idea. Yeah, that, you know, as they say, God writes straight with crooked lines. And I wanted to tell the whole story because I thought it was important to show how God worked through even this kid who's not particularly reflective. I mean, not mean. I was a kind person, you know, growing up, but, you know, took some hits on some joints and whippets when I was a bus boy and got drunk a lot in college. You know, I eventually stopped. It's not like I'm doing that now. But, you know, but that's who I was. And I also think that's who teenagers were back then. Yeah. I mean, pretty much everyone I knew at Penn was going out drinking and smoking. And it's funny. I was down at the University of Pennsylvania a couple days ago. And this kid, after a talk I gave, funny enough, was the resident advisor for my hallway with a quadrangle. He said, would you like to see it? And I said, sure. And I said to him, you know, are kids drinking and smoking? He said, of course they are. So, I mean, it's, it's just telling the truth. I mean, even Augustine talked about his, you know, like stealing the pairs. So. Right. Right. Right. And what is the line? Make me chase, but not today. That's right. But not yet. Something close. It's such a great prayer. Hitting the snooze bar on sanctity. That's right. so let's so um let's talk about the turn that your life took from being um what you say is a corporate tool um you're it's not going perfectly and then and then you come home one night and what happens give us the sense of where you were um in terms of your job and and you were on your way to being rich like the thing that you had started out at age 15 wanting to be yeah by the way you're a very good interviewer. I have to tell you this. You're really very good at this. I mean, not surprisingly, but it's interesting to see you in action. Yeah. So I worked at General Electric's finance and accounting division in New York City for three years. And then I moved to GE Capital, which was their financial services arm, which was really booming at the time in the mid 80s. So I moved there in 1985. I took a job in human resources and I thought that would be a little more congenial. But gradually, I started to realize I'm in the wrong place. And business is a real vocation for a lot of people. Many of my friends, believe it or not, I mean, I shouldn't say believe it or not, they worked in GE for their whole lives. A lot of them just retired a couple of years ago. And they contributed to the common good. And GE made great things, medical systems and light bulbs and all that kind of stuff. But it wasn't for me. And I found myself getting more and more stressed, more and more miserable, and really thinking, what am I doing here? And there were occasions that I witnessed as an HR person of really crass and cruel behavior. Can I share one of them? Yeah. This was a kind of defining moment for me. Very brief. I'll make a long, complicated story shorter. I was in HR. I was 25, 26. I'm a young guy still. But as you know, HR departments are pretty small. So you have these young people kind of going to these executives saying, you can do this and not do that and whatnot. So there was a manager who wanted to fire somebody or bounce him, as we used to say. And we had just given this guy an incentive award. So in other words, we had just given him, I think, a trip. So we had just gotten this great job performance review. In any event, this guy said, I don't care. I'm firing him. So my manager said, go and talk to this manager who was way above me and tell him, you can't do that. You can't fire someone without causing. You just can't bounce somebody. And he said, I don't care. and I said well you know this guy had an incentive award and I don't care I want him out I can see him standing he was taller than I was and I said well you know he has a family for Pete's sakes I said have some compassion and he said F compassion and I remember thinking and not ironically and I remember thinking oh my gosh that someone could say that with a straight face what am I doing here so that got me sort of thinking about leaving and then you know as i say in the book i came home and turned on the tv and saw a documentary about thomas merton the trappist monk and monastic life and the priesthood it just um it came at the right time so i always say my my life was changed by tv there you go well that's a question there which is is that the way it that the way grace works In other words, you know, Archimedes is said to have made his discovery in the bathtub. You know, it's like you're not looking for it. And then you're just plopping down on the couch and because you didn't want to watch Cheers and suddenly, boom, it happens. I think, John, that what happens is oftentimes, I mean, some people are looking for it, right? They're consciously looking for it. But I think what happens is that when we are more vulnerable, God is able to break in. And so it's not that God hits us over the head with a hammer and says, you know, I'm going to now crush you so that you can accept me. It's that our defenses are up and everything when everything seems to be going well. I mean, let's be blunt. A lot of people are like, I don't need God. I don't think about God. I don't need it. Oh, there's God calling. Yeah, exactly. It's the call. But when when you are sort of struggling and suffering and your defenses are down, God is more able to break in. So he's God's always there. It's just you're not listening there. See, there you go. God's God's list. God's calling. That's hopefully my son is going to get that. Real life. Yeah. He writes with crooked lines and occasionally rings the rings the doorbell. So you wrote that whatever it was that Merton had, I wanted his life seemed beautiful, meaningful, even romantic in a way. so thomas merton was a trappist monk lived you know in a cloistered life ended up being a hermit like what was romantic about that oh another great question so i turned on this t i turned on this tv show it's still online by the way it's called merton a film biography and you might know the guy paul wilkes um who was a writer and producer and you know i saw these black and white pictures of this you know not not even film just black and white pictures of this monk and pictures of the monastery and the voice of Alexander Scorby, there's a name from way back when, narrating this beautiful story of him leaving his life and devoting himself to God. Honestly, it just seems so beautiful and so peaceful and so purposeful, to use a kind of a current word. I knew nothing about religious life. The only thing I knew about monasteries was having read, what is it, The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco, you know, way back when, you know, where half the monks are nuts. and the other half are murderers. Yeah. But it just seems so beautiful. And really, that was the call. I mean, we're called, you know, like your attraction to journalism comes because I'm sure you thought this is fascinating. You know, I'd love to write and I'd love to report and I'd love to share the news with people. It's a desire. It's a call. And it's nothing that's mystical, at least in my case. It was just this kind of, and as I said, you know, this happy inability to think of anything else. I just want it in. We're going to get to questions in a moment, but I got a few other things. What's a vocation? Yeah, so it comes from the Latin vocare, which means to call or be called. And it's a calling from God. And on the deepest level, it's, you know, who you're called to be as a person. But then, you know, your career, right? Your career and what God is calling you to be. And I think a lot of that comes from praying and trying to understand your desires. merton writes a lot about that solitary moments uh moment of prayer and contemplation and finding god there and what i uh loved about the the merton story is actually what happens next so you go on retreat and you are having and tell me if I totally wrong about this you having a moment of contemplation I mean you are in, right? You're in silence and you are praying, but because you are a, you know, not a practicing Catholic, you're trying to figure out if you're going to be a priest. And what happens in that you hear something, which to me is extremely powerful. Yeah. So I go and I decide that I want to be, I think, a Jesuit or at least a priest. They say, OK, well, why don't you go on a retreat? I had no idea where the retreat was. And I'll be honest, John, I say this in the book. People don't believe me. I called them and I said, I'm in my office at GE, 1988. Why don't you fax me the agenda? And the director of vocation said, there's no agenda for a retreat. And I said, isn't it eight days? And he said, yeah. I said, well, what am I going to do? He said, well, it's a retreat. So I go up there. The first day, the retreat director, who I still know, a guy named Ron, said, I want you to go out and think about who God is. And I thought, oh, all right. It's like a test. So I thought, oh, the creator, the source and ground of all being. I'd read that somewhere. The father. So I came back in, and I said, here's my list. And he said, that's good. That's good. He said, now I want you to think about who Jesus is for you. And I said to him, I'll never forget this. I said to him, I thought, well, it's a trick question. They're trying to trick me. I said, well, Jesus is God. And he said, that's right. I can think of him. He was in a rocking chair. That's right. But I want you to think about who Jesus is for you. So I went out and I sat back out on the lawn. You know, I'm taking, this is vacation time from GE. So it was kind of precious. And, you know, what is Jesus? Who is Jesus? the savior and Messiah, second person, Trinity, son of God, blah, blah, blah. And then I'm, I can remember I'm looking up in the sky and the word, like a forgotten lyric from a song comes in my mind, friend, just like that. Like I didn't hear it, but, and I thought about, gosh, Jesus as a friend. That's so interesting. What would have been like to have Jesus as a friend and be around him and listen to him and follow him. And it just felt kind of really beautiful. So I went back in and the next day I presented my list and I said, unfortunately my mind was wandering a little bit and i told him about jesus's friend and he said how did that make you feel and i said it actually made me feel really good and he said i think you're starting to pray so the insight was that that god was and this was life-changing for me that that behind that was not simply jim martin coming up with this idea it was that this was one way that god was actually reaching out to me and inviting me to see jesus as a friend. I can't tell you how, I mean, I get goosebumps thinking about it, to be honest, like that, that, that was such a change to, to, to go from a God who was sort of like distant. And, you know, I imagined he was taking care of me and looking after me and cared for me, but to go from that to a God who's actually in a way communicating with you, that was shocking to me. And that, that was life-changing that just that moment. And, and by the way, at the end, I didn't put this in the book. He said to me, by the way, you know, that the original name of the Jesuits was the companions of Jesus, the compañía de Jesús. And I mean, I don't know. I haven't read New Seats of Contemplation by Thomas Merton in a little bit. But I mean, as I recall, it begins by basically saying that people should have an experience like the one you just described. So what happens? I mean, you friend. And then is it basically you feel, I want more of that. I want. Yeah. It was a push-pull. It was a push out of GE. I got to get out of this place. I was having migraines and stomach problems and all this. And I was just so attracted. And you know, John, it was something like, I'm not a very risk prone person. I was more risk averse. And I just said, I quit. And I applied to the society and my friends thought I was nuts. One of my friends, my friend, Chris Brown, who worked for GE for many years, we're still good friends. he said to me he was a he was a really a good christian and a real um kind of stand-up guy right really good person and he said uh i think you should see a psychologist and i said well i'm already seeing a psychologist which is how i kind of came to this and he said i think you should see another psychologist just stack them up yeah but um yeah because obviously the one who was sort of you know kind of encouraging you to leave the the the ge world but you know my friends thought I was joining a cult. My mother was, my mother burst into tears. My sister cried. My friends thought I was nuts. So, you know, because I had never, you know, John, I'd never really shared it with anyone and I didn't know anyone that was particularly religious. And so I'm amazed that I found my way to the Society of Jesus. Well, not only that, but you've, you've now been in it for 40 years. Yeah, I know. And you write in the book that when you went to take your first vows, that your friends laid bets and they thought you'd last about six months. That was the outside bet. Yeah. That was outside. I should have taken that bet. Yeah, really. I know. But you took a vow of poverty. I'd be rich. That's right. I'd have to give it in English. That's how they get you. That's right. You know, you mentioned you'd be rich, which you, of course, have taken a vow not to be. And so I go back to you as a little kid. you two things and then we'll get the questions and we got some we got to take a look at some of the great pictures in the book but you've described two things you wanted to be rich and you wanted to be cool and you were fearful about like you know like not being in the mainstream not so now you're a priest so you're not rich and you promise not to be and you have both in your ministry to keep people thinking about the marginalized and the unseen and also in your ministry to the lgbtq community, you have ticked off some people. A person who is afraid of not being liked is not liked. So you didn't just become a priest. You like, that's a whole 180. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I, until this moment, I never put those two things together. I wanted to be rich and I wanted to have people like me and I don't have any money. And a lot of people hate me. I never, I never thought after I wrote the book, uh, the idea of, you know, so many people because of my LGBT ministry not liking me. That became clear after I actually read the manuscript. You know, as you sort of go through it, I thought, my gosh, that's been a big change. The rich part hasn't bothered me too much because I'm very happy and I don't need to worry about, you know, money because I'm supported by the community. All the money, all my royalties go to the Jesuits. And yeah, even when I had money at GE, I wasn't buying a lot of stuff. I just, you know, I, I went out partying and I went to the nice clubs and I went to good dinners, but I wasn't really into stuff. So that wasn't too hard. Well, it's, it's stuck really also. I mean, for 40 years, cause you could imagine like a person who makes a big life change based on a TV show, which I'm oversimplifying, of course. You're not, that's true. You know, and then it, and then it sticks. Why did it stick? hmm well i i found my vocation and i that's a really you know i i eventually know you you test it out you enter as a novice and you test it out and you see how you like and then you take vows and it works you know it's not perfect i mean no you know no life is perfect right and then i made vows and then i made a promises promises as a priest and then final vows and so I've committed myself to this. I think one of the reasons that it is stuck is that I've realized that it's not supposed to be perfect. That's the other thing. I think once you kind of accept that and embrace both the positives and the negatives and say, this is my life, it works. And I'm happy. I'm certainly happier than I was when I was at GE. When I remember, I talked about this in my book, doodling on my desk, I hate my life. My life seemed very circular. I go to work so I could make money so I can support myself so I can get up and go to work. I thought that doesn't make a lot of sense. Let's ask it. Let's have a few questions here. This one comes from Lisa T. 8151. I'm a parent of young adults, including a college kid who are, quote, finding their way in the world. What can I do as a parent to guide them in the faith? Yeah, I would say basically try to help them notice where God is already. I think that's the key. We Jesuits are big on awareness and noticing. So maybe just introduce them to simple prayers of noticing and reflecting where God is already. It's not so much imposing God on them, but helping them to see where God is active already. And I'm sure there are places that you can point to and that they will be able to find. When you took your more overt branch of your spiritual path, do you think it required that you had not been deeply practicing, a deeply practicing Catholic beforehand? I mean, these are all relative terms. Anybody goes to mass once a week relative to this country is pretty religious. It's like a fanatic. Yeah, exactly. But in other words, did you need that kind of shock of meaning to really focus on the fact that you wanted a greater meaning in your life. You mean how big the change was? Is that what you mean? Yeah. I think that I needed to be really broken in a sense because I was so wedded to the Wharton way of doing things, the GE way of doing things. And, you know, John, I don't know what it was like for you growing up, but I didn't have too many people. My parents were wonderful people, but I didn't know anyone who did anything other than go to work, which meant you get in your car and you drive to your office. I didn't know any reporters. I didn't know any journalists. I didn't know any writers. I didn't know any teachers or artists or whatever. So what would you do? My dad would say, you know, everyone needs a job and you got into Wharton. And so what's the problem? But that just wasn't for me. So I think I really had to be broken in a sense before I could, you know, make that big change. And boy, was it a big change. I mean, I went from going a hundred miles an hour to like 10 miles an hour in the novitiate where you're just you know you're praying you're working with the poor and i remember my first year i i think i still think it was the happiest year of my life um i remember thinking why don't more people do this yeah well this is fantastic you know i get to pray and learn about the jesuits and work with the poor and it's beautiful yeah you think you'll write a are there more because you've had some other jobs i mean working with gang members uh working in nairobi working in hospice. Like, I mean, there's more to write about. Yeah. I've written about that in other books. I have a book called In Good Company, which is about the novitiate. I have a book about my time in Kenya. So yeah, they came out, you know, probably about 15, 20 years ago. Those were your starter books. I mean, yeah. I also think, you know, I think there's one memoir is enough for Jim Martin. But as a writer, is the book still in your head, which is to say, as you go through the world now, you see it as Father Martin, but also you've been in an intensive period. Of course, it's been a little while, but when you're writing about yourself, did that carry over into real life? So you're, you know, you're getting a coffee and you're thinking as Jim Martin, the writer, as you go through your day. I think you mean in terms of writing this book? Yes. And just being in the, having the writing muscle and sort of thinking, what did I think then as a kid and I'm standing in that meadow. So you're, you're habituated to thinking about every action you took as a young person in the storytelling frame. And then you go out and have your regular life. And I wondered if that carried over. That's very interesting. I've never thought about that. I know, I don't think it did. I mean, I think that I really enjoyed writing this. And yet my life is so different. I mean, I'm, you know, like you don't like media stuff and, you know, preaching and, you know, working with LGBTQ people, it wasn't like it was always in my mind because, you know, I'm not the kind of writer I have, I'm a Jesuit who happens to be a writer. Right. And so I'll write maybe an hour or two in the morning and then that's it. And then I have my other job. So I'm not sitting at my desk, like a true writer who's just completely consumed by it and doing research 24 seven. You know, I, I had other stuff to do. A lot of true writers would say they spend their time procrastinating away from the desk because writing is so brutal. Yeah. You know, I have to say this. I find it a pleasure. I don't, I know this sounds crazy, but, and maybe there are all these writers watching, but why is that? Well, first of all, I don't have to make a living off of it. So if the book does well, great. If it doesn't do well, fine, I'm still going to eat. Right. Second, I don't consider myself a writer. I'm a Jesuit who happens to write. And third, I have another job, right? So I don't, so, and the other thing is I'm not an academic writer, which also frees me, right? I don't have to worry about it being well-reviewed or peer-reviewed. And then finally, I can write about what I want to write about. So I'm really lucky. I mean, and also my, since the money goes to the Jesuits, the Jesuits are happy at America Magazine that if I wrote, you know, for three hours a day, that's fine. So I really, it's kind of an ideal situation. And I never have writer's block because, you know, and also it's, you know, if you're writing about when you were a busboy, it's not like I have to, you know, it's not like, you know, I mean, like for your, for example, your book on the presidents, I mean, you do a lot of research for that. And I know what it's like to do research. I've done books on Lazarus and Jesus. You know, my research was my memory and talking to friends and laughing about it and reading my journal and, you know, finding out crazy stories that I'd forgotten about. So it was just, it was a total joy, truly. The whole time was a total joy Well and that comes through in your voice This is a question from Richard You talk about living and working in New York City in the 1980s which coincided with the height of the AIDS crisis in New York and elsewhere Did this inform your work with the LGBTQ plus Catholics through the outreach ministry? Father Martin is the founder of outreach. uh it informs it now but i have to tell you that i was um i didn't know any out gay people in the 80s uh i didn't know any out gay people at college i didn't know any out gay people at ge it was extremely macho sort of hyper competitive right really kind of a tough guy type thing i'm not saying gay people can't be tough but um and you know it's funny i remember reading about you know gay men having this rare cancer. I remember sitting at my desk, you know, so I was at GE from 82 to 85 in New York. And I remember feeling sorry, you know, for that community, but it didn't touch me really personally because I didn't know anyone. It wasn't until later, you know, that I read about it, obviously, you know, read lots of books about it and the Catholic Church's responses and thinking and being embarrassed. I mean, that's one of the sort of the other themes of the book, kind of how unself-reflective I was. You know, I, and I'm thinking about it, I probably should have put that in the book. There I am sort of at the height of the AIDS crisis and I'm not even aware of it. So, you know, it's hard to sort of describe to people how the corporate world was back then and really kind of how homophobic it was. I knew zero people who were out. Let me tell you, there was a, I did not share this in the book, but I shared it elsewhere. I was at Penn from 1978 to 1982. There was a day at Penn called, believe it or not, Gay Jeans Day. Okay, now that sounds kind of funny, but Gay Jeans Day, G-E-A-N-S, was a day when if you wanted to support gay people, you would wear jeans. Let me tell you, I wore jeans every single day of my life when I was a college student, except one day, Gay Jeans Day, because I didn't want to be associated with that community. So that was the world back then. Yeah. I'm not proud of it, but that was where I was living. Yeah. Richard also asks, where would you say the church stands today in its treatment of the LGBTQ plus faithful? And why don't you bring the Pope Leo on stage in answering that question? Yeah, that's a big question. So we have a website called outreach.faith. We have a ministry called Outreach. It depends where you are. If you're in Eastern Europe or Sub-Saharan Africa, not good. If you're in the West, or if you're in New York City, there's probably five or six parishes where LGBTQ people would feel more than welcome. Pope Francis was revolutionary in his dealings with LGBTQ people. He probably did more for LGBTQ Catholics than any Pope, than all the Popes combined before him. And I met with Pope Leo. I was honored to meet with Pope Leo in September. And the message I heard from him was that he wanted to continue that mission of welcome and inclusion that Francis had. So I think we're making steps, that community is making steps. And we're certainly a lot further along than we were 10 years ago or even 15 years ago. You knew Pope Leo before he was Pope Leo. And he's also the American Pope. How does that shorten the distance in your conversations with him? And give us your, what's it, how have you noticed what it's like now to have an American an American Pope who, who also seems really like the whole Chicago and White Sox thing. I mean, he's not, you know, he's on the street, not the mountaintop. Now, you know, I have to say to everybody, not just Catholics, he's a great guy. He is a great guy. And I got to know him a little bit at the Synod, which was this worldwide meeting of Catholics. He was, I'll tell you a funny story, John. He was, we were at the same table for two weeks. And so I got to know him, you know, we were at the same, the whole day for two weeks. And you're there, you're working. What are you doing at the table? We're talking about different issues that are facing the church and coming up with reports. And I'm the secretary and he's we're weighing in and just discussing. And after he was I was he was on the second tier, I would say, of candidates. So it wasn't a complete surprise, like a lot of people say. But nonetheless, when he walked out, you know, this guy that I knew dressed like the pope, I was so moved. I went back anyway to my Jesuit community. Here's the punchline. And I was so stunned. And I said, I can't believe it. He was at my table for two weeks. And they said, no, you were at his table. So it really does. And by the way, I met with him once after he was elected in the Apostolic Palace. And what surprised me was I had always had to deal with Francis through an interpreter. I had two to three times more time with him because we didn't have to go through an interpreter. So he's a great guy. He's great. He's smart. He's open. And we're very lucky. The Holy Spirit, according to me, did a great job. Yeah. Today, as we're talking, the pride flag was quietly removed from the Stonewall National Monument in Manhattan, south of where you and I are. As part of a directive from the federal government, president um uh trump's directive um what's your as someone who's devoted so much work to the lgbtq community what's your reaction to that well i think the first thing to say is that pride when we talk about pride uh it's not about vanity all right pride is really about human dignity this is what pride means for most lgbtq people i can't speak for all of them i think that taking down that flag is gratuitous and cruel. So there's no need to take down that flag from Stonewall of all places. What does that accomplish? So I think it's another way of trying to marginalize and mock and humiliate LGBTQ people. But that doesn't take away their dignity. They can still have dignity, even though the flag's not up there. But it was really, I just found it gratuitous. I mean, what's the point right and it's similar to taking down the those plaques that uh around independence hall in my hometown of philadelphia right uh sort of removing the history so it's i find some of these things i don't want to critique people by name but i find some of those actions really gratuitous and gratuitously cruel no need for it let me while we're in the political realm more questions immigration you know there is there are a lot of people um of strong professed faith who, you know, are supportive of and really working hard to fulfill the request of the president in his deportation program. How do you see the role of the Gospels, of people who also worship Jesus, as you do, in this national debate? Well, I think one of the key things is to look at Matthew 25, where Jesus says, when you welcome the stranger, you welcome me, and you don't welcome the stranger, you don't welcome me. Interestingly, Speaker Mike Johnson talked about Romans 13, right, you know, listening to civil authorities, right? That's not absolute. I mean, if we just did that, then, you know, you could say, and I'm not drawing distinctions, but I'm not drawing comparisons. You could say that then, you know, everyone who obeyed orders under Nazi Germany and the Third Reich, right, that's civil authorities. or during the civil rights era, right? I mean, everybody who was kind of discriminating, those were civil and civic laws. So that's not absolute. What is absolute in both the Old and the New Testaments is the commandment to love our neighbor. And sometimes our neighbor is the migrant, the refugee, the internally displaced person. So it's pretty clear. You don't need to have a PhD in New Testament studies to understand this stuff. Jesus is very clear. And it might be uncomfortable, but that's what we're supposed to do. and the stakes are high he's he says you treat the stranger the way you would treat me or as if you're treating me i mean it's not well yeah and that's the litmus test for entrance into the reign of god and by the way for people who think that's some sort of personal morality um that passage from the gospels matthew 25 which is called the judgment of the nations so you know look caring for the poor, helping the stranger, caring for the sick, the widow, the orphan, you really can't get away from this in the Gospels. And you really have to kind of bend yourself into a pretzel to say that this is not something that impinges on all of us, at least for Christians. This, I think, is related to that. Margaret Mary Walsh writes, having grown up in a progressive Catholic environment, 70s, 80s, post-Vatican II Catholic schools were progressive. I do not know what to make of the young, quote unquote, trad movement. Can you help us understand? Yeah. So the trad or traditional movement is, I think, very strong among many young people, not all young people, but it's a kind of return to traditional piety and devotion. The traditional Latin mass is often part of it. I think what a lot of these young people and older people, too, are looking for is a sense of mystery and awe and identity also, right, against the kind of secular values. So I think it's important for the church to kind of see where they are and what they need and try to meet them where they are, while at the same time, you know, kind of embracing some of the reforms of, say, the Second Vatican Council, right? So it's kind of a balancing act. By the way, I think Leo is doing a great job with this, you know, reaching out to progressives and conservatives at once. So, yeah, trying to meet these people where they are while keeping the legitimate reforms of the Vatican of Second Vatican Council. Mary Mikko asks or says that she went to school at Detroit Mercy, which is Jesuit University. She said she was raised Lutheran and went to mass almost every Sunday. What advice would you give someone thinking about converting to Catholicism? No, I'd say do it, first of all. Learn as much as you can about the church through your friends, your Catholic friends, and go to a good parish that you like and try what's called the Order of Christian Initiation for Adults. It's a wonderful program that helps to teach you what it means to be Catholic. And yeah, I also think trust that if you feel that it might be a call from God. Mary Brooks, Marilyn Brooks asks, how has your friendship with Jesus evolved? like any friendship right it uh it deepens uh it goes through ups and downs uh you have to be open to things changing i think it's gotten a lot more uh in the past couple of years since i've done the lgbtq ministry he's gotten a lot more challenging right like i want i this is going to be uncomfortable for you jim i don't hear this in like voices but this is how i feel and i want you to do it anyway I want you to continue to discern and continue to take one step, you know, and see where this leads. I also rely on him much more because I don't know where this ministry is going. I didn't start out. I did not do what we Jesuits called a retreat of election, meaning I didn't go off for eight days and say, now this is what I want to do. It just kind of happens step by step. And now we have this ministry and we have conferences and retreats. And it's a wonder to me. So it's relying on him and trusting that he's going to lead me step by step. What role does Merton play in your life now? I mean, how do you think of the Trappist monk who was so important in your beginning? Yeah, with great gratitude. You know, something funny happened a couple of years ago on retreat. So Thomas Merton died. I think he was, I think he was either 53 or 58. I think he was 53. and I remember as a young man thinking well this is this old guy that I'm looking up to right and a couple of years ago in retreat I thought oh my gosh I'm older than Thomas Merton and yet he's still kind of my hero and I still read him and I still admire him he you know I met someone once who knew a guy named Henry Nowen who was a great Dutch spiritual writer and and also knew Thomas Merton and I said what were they like and he was Merton's novice Merton's Merton was his novice director and now and was his spiritual director so he one of the few people that knew both and he said henry now was a really talented guy gifted thomas merton was a genius he said you can't compare the two so i really he he's a he's looking down at me right now he's a he's a genius and a genius in the spiritual life too and you wrote about now and right and you're becoming who you are yeah which is also about merton yeah you got a good memory uh and i'm pretty sure merton would agree with you that he was a genius. You know, the other thing I think that I see a little bit of myself in him, he was this, you know, kind of popular writer. And then he started to write against the Cold War and people really disliked him. And I, I've thought that there's a, I'm not comparing myself to Thomas Merton, but I looked to him because similar thing happened to me after I started to do the LGBTQ ministry, you know, more people hated me. And I thought, well, okay, If he could, you know, kind of push through that, so can I. Well, Father Martin, this has been a delight. Thank you for the book and for gabbing with me about it here for an hour. It's really fun, Jim. Well, thanks, John. I want to say thanks for taking such care with these questions. I really enjoy, I mean, I just enjoyed talking to you. And thanks for reading the book so carefully. You're a, not surprisingly, a great interviewer and a good friend. And I'm very grateful. Thank you. Thank you, Jim. Thank you. That's it for this month's edition of GabFest Reads. Thanks to Horizon Books and the Traverse City National Writers Series in Traverse City, Michigan. Our producer is Nina Porzuki. Ben Richman is Senior Director of Operations of Podcasts. Mia Lobel is the Executive Director of Podcasts at Slate. And Hilary Fry is the Editor-in-Chief at Slate. David Plotz will be back next month with another edition of GabFest Reads. Until then, all three of us, we'll be back in your feed on Thursday. Thank you.