Episode 496: Royal Rumble 1991

Hello, I'm here with Jose Mourinho and Snickers for Football's Rapid Fire On or Off Your Game. Right, Jose, you've got one or two opinions on football, so I want you to tell me whether the following is On or Off It's Game. First up, VAR. Half the game. Half and half scarves? Half the game. What about backflip celebrations? Half. Cutting holes in the back of your socks? Half, half, half the game. What I hate, even the ones without calves, they do the holes. Snickers, you are off your game when you are hungry. Hey, just in time for the holidays, what if you didn't have to worry about any of that credit card debt? If you're feeling stuck making the minimum payments and you don't want to have to put Christmas on a credit card, we can help at savewithconrad.com. For routinely help our listeners save hundreds of dollars a month, find out how much money you can save right now for free at savewithconrad.com. Welcome to something a racer will. Welcome to something a racer will. It's Pre-Gym. It's Pre-Gym. Well, you know, that's not a real. What a rip. No, you haven't been. There's no box of gimmicks. We're running in your window. Don't deal in rumor and in your wedding. And was he there? I was there. Try something by all means. I don't give a shit. Welcome to something a racer will. It's the racer will. Something a racer will. Something a racer will. Something a racer will. Bruce Prichard. Hey, hey, it's Conrad, the mortgage guy, and you're listening to something to wrestle with. Bruce Prichard. Bruce, what's going on, man? How are you? You changed your last name. Yeah, I'm the mortgage guy now. Oh, well, you were talking. I was, but I'm the mortgage guy now. And we are excited to be here with you. Happy New Year, everybody. Hope you're enjoying 2026 so far. But January for wrestling fans usually means one thing. What is it, Bruce? That's the Royal Rumble or when it first started, the Rumble Royal or the Big Battle Royal thing where people just run in and eliminate each other. All the above. But yeah, I think the very first one was called the Rumble Royal. And then it became the Royal Rumble. You know, I know that we speak in hyperbole a lot as wrestling fans, but in your opinion, is the Royal Rumble the greatest gimmick match created ever? I mean, fans love this concept. I feel like more than almost any other match. Yeah, I think because it has kind of everything in it. You have intrigue. Sometimes if you don't announce everybody in it, who's going to be in it? All right, what are the surprises going to be? You start off with a match and a lot of times it can be a hell of a match. And every every two minutes, the match changes no matter what. So the you don't know when your favorites are coming out and you you change your favorites as it goes on. So if you want somebody that's like number three or four, that was your pick and they're eliminated now. Oh my God, I've got to I've got to pick somebody new. Now, now I want this guy to win. And it just allows as a viewer to to be fully invested in the show. It's not one of those matches that you can just go away from and come back. You have to sit there for the entire thing. And hopefully it delivers a lot of surprises and a lot of Gaga throughout the entire match. The anticipation is huge. The anticipation is huge for the Royal Rumble. I know me and my friends have always loved watching it together. We're excited for this year's Royal Rumble. So I thought, you know what, let's kick it old school and let's talk about some really, really big anniversary shows. Today we're going to be revisiting Royal Rumble 91 in 1996. We'll have some different approaches to these conversations. Let's jump in with the early 1991. There was a report that it was announced over the weekend on WWF television in January of 1991 that Andre the Giant would not be in the Battle Royal because of the leg injury he had suffered in Japan. Now, there's a pretty legendary story about this, Bruce. I guess once upon a time the thought was we may actually have Andre win this Royal Rumble. Do you remember that being the case in 1991? No. Okay. Never. Yeah, no. I've never even heard that rumor. Some other news and notes from that week were that Ted DiBiase was going to have his knee scoped the day after Christmas. And I guess the Honky Tonk man actually quit the promotion the day after Christmas. And I wanted to spend just a minute and talk about that. Do you remember what happened with Honky here and the day after Christmas 1991? I really don't, other than Honky. You know, look, Honky's Honky and Honky Tonk man was Grayson and Connell champion of all time. But Honky also had his opinions and very strong opinions of things. And I think that essentially every time somebody leaves, it's over money. And it's over. I'm not getting paid enough. I'm not being paid what I'm worth. This guy makes more than me, that guy. So, you know, in everything when you break it all down, it always breaks down the money. I do want to ask you about Andre the Giant. You know, you mentioned that you had never heard the rumor that he may have been considered to win the 91 Royal Rumble. He does actually come back from this injury. But I don't think that he wrestles in the WWF again on television. I know he had a couple of house shows in the UK and then one, I guess, in the New York market. And then one final show in Michigan. But all of those were house shows. We never see Andre wrestle on television again. He does continue to make shots in Japan and Mexico. But whatever this leg injury was, and once he's off TV, he's off. How did Vince and Andre come to that agreement? That because we would continue to see him a little bit on TV, but not in an in-ring capacity. If you recall, they did some skits where he was looking for a manager and then it just sort of faded away. Was there a hard conversation between Vince and Andre? Because clearly it feels like Andre still wanted to wrestle if he continued to appear in other places. Start me through that. Well, look, Andre did want to wrestle. And Andre, man, you know, it's hard to talk about. I think Andre knew he was dying. One, he felt, you know, I know I'm a giant. I know that I don't have a long life expectancy. So his mortality, I believe, was a big part of him wanting to do what he loved to do. And what Andre loved to do was to be in the dressing room with boys to go out and perform. But Andre wasn't able to perform at that time. He wasn't the same Andre the giant from 87, you know, and when he came back after back surgery. So Andre was not in great shape. And Andre was doing things that he probably shouldn't have been doing. Like he shouldn't have gone to Japan A for the flight time and B for the match and in the just the physical just terror, you know, that that put on him. So, you know, I think that I think Vince, Vince and Andre were very close. And the thought of first of all, the thought of Andre going doing the stuff that he did in Mexico and the stuff that he did in Japan was against advice for him to go do that. And it was also a Vince to Andre. If that's what you want to do, go do it. All right. So for Andre, that's what he wanted to do. Man, that's what he loved. So Andre, I think, just wanted to be around the business in the business performing, doing whatever he could do. And I think it took its toll on him. So there was at the end, so it was WrestleMania 7. We did a series of vignettes of managers. You talked about managers that were wooing Andre to be his manager. And I left, I left before the vignettes even played all the way out and it materialized into nothing, really. But I think that that was more from a place of, I remember sitting in the bar at the Los Angeles arena where we did WrestleMania that year. That's where we shot the vignette where he's sitting at the bar. He's having a drink with Arnie and all this stuff. And in Boss Man, he was having so much trouble getting around. There was the one where I think he put slick in the trunk of a car and different things. But we shot all of those in a night, just one right after another in different locations and what have you. And it just, you saw it. And I remember Vince going, promised I would do this, but I don't know if he can do this along those lines. And it was a time that we started to see, wow, man, you want, you want to see the best. You look at someone and they're not what they used to be, but you still look at them with goggles from the 70s and early 80s. And that's what you want to see. And you look at shit blind sometimes. Or you got blinders on and that's all you see. And I think that that's what Vince did with Andre. I think that he loved him so much, didn't want to say no to him. And then finally, when Boss left, he was, he, all right, you don't want to use me? I'll go somewhere where I can be used. But he was in no condition to do anything. And I think the last thing he did was an appearance on WCW for one of their specials. And that really hurt Vince. He just, he's like, why, why would you do that? We would have, you know, we would have done something with you, but you just wanted to wrestle. And then he, you know, he just slowly passed. You know, there's always been the discussion amongst wrestling fans about, you know, hey, who's on your Mount Rushmore when it comes to performers that, you know, Vince McMahon, we're here and he was going to list his own personal Mount Rushmore. Andre, the giant would certainly be on one of those, wouldn't he? Yeah, I think so. I definitely think so. I, you know, Andre, people can look at, oh my God, was Andre a great worker? The answer to that question is yes, Andre was a great worker. In his later years, he was not. In his early years, he was a great worker. Andre did things with guys and was very giving and worked his ass off and was just constantly, you know, doing things and worked all over the world. And Andre was a great worker because at his size, he could have just gone in and been the giant attraction and, roar, I kill you. But he didn't. He went in and worked with guys. He sold, he bumped, he let guys slam him, he let guys suplex him. He bumped his ass off and really, really was a hell of a worker. So when you hear the thing, oh, people just, again, for some people who only saw the 1987 on Andre the Giant and weren't exposed to the early Andre, you know, yeah, he wasn't. He couldn't do shit. He couldn't do anything in later years. He had trouble getting in and out of the ring, much less taking a bump. But you go back and watch early Andre shit. You will be amazed because he did a lot of things, man. And he put a lot of people over and made guys just being in the ring with him. So he was a, he was a magnificent, magnificent worker. Hey, listen, man, if you manage your crew, I'm talking to you. If you're in construction, HVAC, landscapers, whatever, you already know the deal. When your guys pay for gas and materials, buddy, it causes all types of issues. Cards get borrowed, trucks fuel up when they're parked in the yard, and your account is chasing you for receipts at the end of every month. But Coast Pay fixes all that. Coast Pay is the modern fuel card and expense management tool for fleets. Now this isn't software built by someone who's never run a crew. Fuel maintenance materials, they're all now on one card with real control and instant visibility. 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And it happened in the Tokyo dome. So just about a week apart, WCW in New Japan. And then here's WWF at the time and SWS. What do you remember about that SWS relationship? How it came to be? Was it a priority and did it become more interesting to WWE because their domestic numbers had fallen a little bit like we weren't at the 1989 peak anymore? Was Vince looking to, hey, let's make up for that where there's still an appetite and go international or how did this come to be? I think, well, first of all, there was always an appetite for doing something in Japan. And the myth, if you will, of Japanese wrestling was one of, you know, oh my God, you know, they draw these huge houses and they do all this stuff. And they did look, they did have great business. But when you learn of the mechanics of that great business and what that really entailed, it was a lot of sponsorships, which they were ahead of their time in that regard, that they could sell out the superdome to an optical sponsor who would buy all the tickets and then they would disperse the tickets so they could have a sellout. They could have half a house or a sellout. They could fill the damn thing. But the sponsors would either sell the tickets or give the tickets away with come in and get, you know, buy two pairs of glasses, get two tickets type of thing. So I think that they were ahead of their time in many regards to the way that they used sponsorships for their shows. So you find out your traditional ways of doing business that we had in the United States where, man, we went in as promoters and you promoted a show, you got the ticket proceeds and that's how you paid your talent and so on and so forth. We didn't have a lot of sponsors. We didn't do business that way. And it was just a different business model. So to crack the Japan market, the feeling in some regard was, all right, we've got to do it with a successful Japanese company. The problem with that was is that the traditional Japanese companies, a lot of times, if you did it with them, then you were, it was just their show. The Japanese fans wanted to see the Western product. They were fans. They wanted, they wanted to see the WWF show. And I dare say the same thing for WCW. So, and that's a tough nut to crack just to get in and you have to have somebody on the ground. You have to be able to track those sponsors and be able to do that business that way or present a product that is just undeniable. The SWS, that was Tenru. And the way that, you know, it was an opportunity. Tenru was starting a new company and he was looking for partners and he came to us. And so this was an opportunity to be on the ground floor of a new company versus going with all Japan and New Japan. And all Japan and New Japan had it pretty well locked up. And obviously there were other companies and what have you. But Tenru came in and came to us and wanted to partner with us. And we looked at this as an opportunity to go in and have a presence in Japan. So, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't just a one show deal. It was an opportunity to do, you know, hopefully multiple shows and an opportunity to do a lot more. Didn't pan out, but that was the early, early thinking. You think it was the folks behind the SWS promotion or Vince's idea to go back to the Tokyo Dome following, respectively, a more established brand? I mean, certainly the WWF is the biggest brand in the world. I'm not arguing that, but at least in the confines of Japan, New Japan is pretty doggone well established by this point. And if SWS is more of a startup, going to the Tokyo Dome like a week later feels pretty risky, doesn't it? I think it was definitely a situation of, I don't think it's any different doing it there than it is anywhere else. And yeah, it sure is risky because all Japan and New Japan were both established. And SWS was an unproven entity. So you're going in and they're going in with our guys. And again, now that then brings in the whole other thing of, okay, how's our talent going to be used? Right. And it just opens up such a huge can of worms between the offices, between the promotions, how are we going to do this? How are we going to do that? And the Japanese talent being protective of their spots and the W guys being very protective of theirs. So it was, yeah, it was a risk. It was a risk. And I don't think that, I don't think it was the best way to do that, that introductory. You know what I mean? I think waiting and being your own spotlight and having that, that focus only on you is much more advantageous. By the way, if you're curious, there were 36,000 people at that WWE slash SWS event in March. That's about a week after the new Japan Starcade, which if you believe the numbers that you see online, 64,000, but still 36,000, nothing to sneeze at. I do want to ask you about something else that's in the news on the way to Royal Rumble. It's confirmed that Vince McMahon is going to price WrestleMania in 1991 at 29.95. Now I bring this up because I think everybody is familiar with the story from 1990 that Vince was disappointed with the buy rate. And after the huge success of 89, how could you not? Nothing's going to top the mega powers exploding. Certainly not warrior Hogan, but he's going to confirm, hey, we're keeping the price the same 29.95. Now that didn't feel like a big deal about 2026 or standards or what have you, but you were leaving a former price point of 1995. And I got to ask business at that level, is there like a focus group that helps make that decision? Is there any sort of research or data or is this more Vince just operating with his gut? Do you think? Well, no, it's more from the, it's a little bit of both, but it's also more from your pay-per-view companies who didn't want to go backward. Didn't want to go back. Man, I was like, okay. The simple reason Rustamania 6 didn't draw was, I think it was a baby face match that I think I had it to do all over again. I do the exact same thing, but it just wasn't, I don't know. Obviously it wasn't something that a lot of people wanted to see, but as far as pricing goes, that a lot that has to do with cable companies. And they're, I don't know if it was research or if it was just their opinion, they didn't want to go backwards. It's like we've already gone here for Rustamania. You can't go backwards because then you're saying this is less that. And that's, that's never a good thing in business. Okay. 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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Mando's got you covered with the odorant plus sweat control. Say goodbye to sweat stains and say hello to long lasting freshness. ShopMando.com promo code WHW. Let's talk a little bit about what's next for Andre. There's going to be lots of legal problems according to the observer between Herb Abrams and Vince McMahon. I guess there's usage of some trademark names with B. Brian Blair, Andre the giant, Honky Tonk Man and Ravishing Rick Rude. And of course, McMahon still has valid contracts for Rick Rude and the Honky Tonk Man, even though both had walked out. Herb Abrams was clearly not a threat to anyone. But how do you think Vince viewed Herb Abrams and his UWF? You know what? I don't know that he even really gave Herb much thought. Now anybody, whether it was Herb Abrams or Joe Blow or whoever using the trademarks, that's something he's going to go after. And but I don't believe that anybody thought Herb Abrams was any kind of threat whatsoever. You watched his television, you went, oh my God. And listening to the, you know, when I was away, I used to get the phone calls all the time about the guys starting up new businesses and stuff. I've got a new promotion. I'm going to do this. I'm going to give guys insurance. Everybody's going to make a million dollars. Everybody's going to get this. Everybody flies first class. And 99.9% of the time, it was all talk and it was never, never turned into anything. You know, Herb got on television. Herb had a TV and that was a big thing. But it was, you could just look at it based on the promises that he was making and the things that he was doing. It just didn't, just was something not right about it. And I don't think that Vince ever viewed Herb as any kind of competition or anything like that. If anything, if anything, if I were a Crockett and those guys that owned the UWF mark, I would have gone after him for that. I know that was defunct by then, but at the same time, they hopefully owned the mark. I would think that they sold that as a part of the deal to Turner. Don't you think? That's what I would think they did. Yeah. But again, even to them, I would have, if they owned the mark, grab it. You know, don't let somebody don't, don't give somebody else a name that at one time held some weight in the business. Well, respectfully, I don't think WCW had ever turned to profit by the time they owned profit by that point. So they're probably just wanted to throw a good money after bad. Like who knows if that's even going to be a thing. And of course we know it wound up not really being much of a thing, but Howard Brody, may he rest in peace? She used to tell a story that Vince had it in for her because I guess Herb sent Vince a fax offering to buy the WWF and specifically cited it as a reason for the WWF hiring away John Tolos later in 91. I've never heard that before. Have you heard of this Herb Abrams sending a fax and Oh, no, I'm a geographer. Hey, man, Dixie Carter said the same thing to me. But I asked Dixie, I said, Hey, would you be interested in trying to work out something with WWE? And I said, it could be a feeder system or we could do something that we could do a talent exchange and different. I said, he's never going to go for inter promotional shit, but there may be something we could work out with talent that when we have talent, we can get talent over. And when it's when it's time, we've gotten everything we can get out of them that we can then go to Vince and and it's not where we reap some rewards from it, where maybe there's talent that are there that they aren't using at the time or can't use and we can get them. And she looks at me and says, well, what what makes you think that we're not going to buy them? Okay, well, good luck with that. So I think that's funny. I think that's great. But I don't think that. Yeah, Vince, I know people think that and it's just it's just wrong. It's not how he does business. It's not it's not how he does his shit. It's it's just perception wise. It's no people make that argument. Oh, well, I did this, did that. It was good for business. He did it, but I don't think that somebody offering to buy the company and then starting another company is anything he's going to go. Okay, I'm going to squash him. Doesn't care. I wonder how much I was, man. How much was the other thing you said about that? He said, um, a fact. And then what else? I guess the I guess John Cholos was was working with Herb Abrams and in response to this fact, I guess, according to her, the way he tells the story. Oh, he just hired him because I pissed him off. And I don't know if that's true. 100% not true. Yeah. So, um, I can I can tell you how Tollis got there and Tollis I'd seen Tollis, um, in California. I was always a big John Tollis fan and from the early, early days in Texas and all this stuff and when he had come through there and then I was, I was with him somewhere in, in, um, in California and John, when Paul Bosch died, John started dating Paul's widow and John would go in Paul's closet as legend has it and wear Paul's clothes. And then when he would leave and go back to California, he would pack his suitcase with Paul's clothes. And then Valerie, you know, kind of was like, wait a minute, you know, he took Paul's clothes. What the hell's going on here? Um, but anyway, I, we were looking for a coach and, and something different for perfect and, and the coach thing that had good and different. That was my idea. And I said, we've never, we had managers that, but we never had a coach. What if you had a coach and I started doing this coach that I had in high school, coach, talk like, yeah, goddamn, get your, get your, get your ass across that goddamn line. Ah, everybody turn around. Ah, get down. All right. Everybody is, is, go back, damn it, move. And I would do this coach thing all the time. And I said, what if he had a coach and I thought, told us would be a great coach. And it just, uh, but yeah, that was good old coach Cole that, uh, inspired that. Hey, let me ask you about the honky talk man. He is ultimately going to be one of those guys who, uh, is in the middle of this UWF, WWF IP spat, but. Hockey is going to claim that he has legal right to the name because, uh, honky talk lane was used in both Canada and in the south. And of course there's Elvis impersonators in every city in the country at that point in 1991. So honky winds up winning and it goes his way. Do you remember the first person that vents or the WWF for Titan sports? What have you may have pursued for this IP case like this sort of thing? Who was the very first one? And at the same time, who do you think may have been the first person to challenge Vince on it and when was it honky here? Wow. I don't know. Um, I, I recall. So when you go back and, uh, demolition, for example, Randy Colley, uh, that was Randy's. Idea for demolition, but Randy brought it to Vince. Vince made it, you know, made them demolition and you can come up with ideas all day long. You don't do anything with it. Somebody else does something with it and they get to it first and then they, they get to keep it. And I know Randy challenged that Randy lost, but, um, honky. Look, I could, I could see the. Honky had prior usage of, of honky Wayne or whatever the hell he was honky, taunt Wayne, just honky, taunt man. And, uh, you know, he had a good argument by God. Then guess what? He won. We should mention that this is also where the WWF is trying to really turn the volume up on their WrestleMania storyline with Hulk Hogan and Sergeant Slaughter. We've covered that at length here in the archives. It's something to wrestle.com. So certainly check that out. But I want to bring this up to you. We're doing some TV tapings in Huntsville and Chattanooga. Where you shooting some. Some. Maybe angles. Come on now, January 7th in the Vaughn Braun and January 8th in Chattanooga. But I wanted to bring up though was something that we've touched on before, but Lord, it's been a while. There's a masked man who's going to come down and interfere in matches. He's going to beat up on the heels during squash matches with Rick Martell, earthquake and demolition. And then he's going to leave the heels laying after head butts. And the masked man is actually Brutus beefcake. But it's said in the observer that the angles were said to be so pathetic that they won't ever make air. It's expected that at some point beefcake will return to wrestling and the gimmick will be that Jack Tony will rule that since he has a steel plate in his head from the accident, of course, that he has to wear a rubberized mask to keep him from using these lethal head butts. In reality, his doctors have forbid him from wrestling without a protective mask because one decent fall or potato blow to the face could collapse his entire face. And most wrestlers seem to be against the idea of his coming back because it's far too dangerous. And the foes would have to take it easy on him and the matches would be poor. Now, some of that's not why the matches would be poor, but go ahead. So that's Dave Meltzer's account. But some of these beefcake appearances do make air, but only the ones in his mariner outfit. While the ones with him in the furry body suit, it's all been nicknamed by fans and attendants, fur face. And that never made air. Regardless, this gimmick goes nowhere and is quickly forgotten. What was the idea with creative here? What can you tell us about these two concepts? What would you, how would you describe a mariner outfit? I don't even know what that is. I don't either, but I'm just reading you what was written here. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was all the same outfit kind of he would wear. He would wear different shit, but it was all the same, I guess, character, whatever the fuck you want to call it. It was an attempt to use Brutus because Hulk wanted, wanted us to use Brutus and give Brutus a job. So everything about the face mask, yeah, he couldn't work. There was not, also there was, I don't know that it was really clear, even with commission states that had the commission, whether they would even allow him in the ring. So the face mask and the face protector was for his own good. So that God forbid he catch an air and elbow and his face doesn't collapse again. Hey, I really cut you off, but I do want to ask, how would the different commissions know? I don't think that's to be funny, but most of the time, a lot of, from what I understand, a lot of the commissions were almost positioned as almost like a cash grab. Hey, guys are going to show up and take your blood pressure, and then you're good to go. Yeah, but look, man, there's, there are people who are, there are people and I won't because they're still in power in some states. Okay. That, that, um, that took their job as the gatekeeper, if you will. My God, I'm a commissioner of fucking bum fuck, whatever. And, and I read, okay, this, this is beef cake is a great example too. This is how crazy it was at one time with the commission. All right. Brutus beef cake and Hulk Hogan once worked as Terry and Ed Boulder. They're real brothers. And they told the story that by God, they were brothers and so on and so forth. So when, uh, Hulk and beef cake were working against each other in the early 80s, man, when, uh, early 80s, mid 80s, when Vince started his expansion and going into other markets, beef cake would be, you know, Hulk would just work with a heel. He didn't have to have a program. He just worked with a heel. He's working with beef cake. They come to Texas commission comes into our office and says, Hey, are these guys brothers? These guys are brothers. It was state law in the athletic commission that brothers, couldn't brothers or sisters could not wrestle one another state law. Used to be state law. You couldn't have wrestling on Sunday. You couldn't have wrestling start before 7pm. These were, these were laws. Again, you think in the south, uh, Texas, I'm sure in Alabama, man, and, and Mississippi and Louisiana, they had the blue laws. So you could go into a hardware store and you could buy a nail on Sunday, but you couldn't buy hammer. Just shit like that because of the, it is a very, very religious and just they had these blue laws that prohibited you from where you could work. If you, if you opened on Sunday, you had to close another day of the week. So for you to advertise, Hey, we're open on Sunday. We're closed on Tuesday. Sunday was a great shopping day, but back in the day, man, you didn't have that. So there were antiquated laws like that. And I dare say there were similar laws like that in, in the commission. So you had commissioners that would read shit or hear shit and believe it. So when beefcake and halt came in, they went in prepared to shut that show down. Because by God, y'all brothers, brothers can't wrestle each other. It's got a name state athletic commission law. We're law. They had a little badge and everything, man. So it was stupid. It was stupid. Yes, it was stupid. So that's how they would know. Again, Dave Meltzer may tell them, you know what I mean? Okay. So again, I'll tell you the, the, the amount of horse shit that they would believe. And, and, and that shit happened, man. It, it still happens. It's crazy. All right, fellas, you already know what time it is. It's time to level up and blue chew just dropped something crazy. I'm talking next level championship belt, gold, plated energy. Blue chew gold is the newest innovation from the number one chewable E.D. brand. This ain't your grandpa's little blue pill. This is the four in one beast that's setting the gold standard for performance. We're talking two ingredients for blood flow to keep that rocket pumping. It's mixed with apomorphine and oxytocin to turn up the arousal and the connection in both your brain and body. 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He's going to be doing color commentary on worldwide wrestling. And this to me for all the criticism and negativity that gets lobbed Vince's way about the way he handled this guy or that guy or what have you. The idea that he allows dusty to be on WCW programming and announced as being on WCW programming in a big return and blah, blah, blah. Before he's even finished at the Royal Rumble. That tells you what high, high regard and high esteem that Vince held dusty and don't you think? Yes, in dusty handled it the right way. Right. Dust, dusty didn't didn't go behind his back. Vince, you know, he, he, he wanted to, he had this opportunity to go to WCW. He told Vince. And he, he shared everything with them. See, he was like, Hey, I'm, I have this opportunity. I'd like to do this. I'd like to be the boss again. I'd like to book. I'd like to do all this shit. So Vince respected that and was grateful that he shared everything with him. And so, yeah, he worked with him. It's, it's when you try to do things and he didn't deal with them secretly. He, he did it out in the open. And, you know, so yes, it was, you'd be surprised at the things that have happened and, and taken place just because guys did business the right way. Can you give me another example? Of course, we're looking at a picture there of Rick Blair. He was another example like. That's the example I was going to give you. Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, again, it was Rick was, Rick was unhappy and did this message. Yeah. If you can get it done and into guys. I mean, look, Brett Hart is an example. Who's Brett? Go use this. Use this to get more money at WCW. And again, if guys came to him and would tell him that he was okay, you know, here's my opinion. I'll put it in writing for you so you can use that as leverage. Go out and try and get yourself a better deal. So there were, there were several instances like that, those three, you're top of mind. Of course, much later, I don't pretend to know when you're going to be in the office. Pretend to know when any of this happened or didn't happen, but we would hear reports much later. I'm not going to say a more modern era because I don't know exactly when this started, but it does feel like there was a divide where allegedly, according to the reports and social media and that sort of thing, guys would ask for their release and Vince would say no. And you've told us before that sometimes, you know, hey, we're going to let them out of their contract when we want to let them up. They're not in control. We're that sort of thing. How, how was that line drawn? Like, hey, the line is here for Flair or Dusty, but it's not there for XYZ. Look, it's different for everybody. And I daresay, you know, with, with Dusty, I think at that point in time, there may have been a feeling that, okay, we've done all we can do with Dusty. And being able to go somewhere else and have an opportunity to leave on top, if you will, but not be damaged in any way. And, you know, same thing with Rick, but, but also if somebody's in the middle of a program and you have more things for them, yeah, you want, you want to get your investment out of them. And I don't know, but I would guess that the feeling probably was, all right, we've gotten, we got our investment out of him. I got you. You know, it's, there's equity in a character and so on and so forth. And, and both of those were short stints. Rick and Dusty were short stints. And Rick and Dusty were kind of made men before they got there. So that may have factored into them. It made somewhere else. Yeah. So, you know, every, every situation is different. Every situation is different. And if you're in the middle of something, you've got ideas and you want to play those out and you've put the, you got the equity in the character and you have invested in this character, then you want to get your investment out of them. Man, just thinking about the way Vince's brain works is fascinating because, you know, you have a guy like, you know, I know we're going to talk about current stuff, but Cody Rhodes was, was under contract and then he goes and becomes a star somewhere else. And when he comes back, he's treated totally differently, much like a Ric Flair or a Dusty. I think that's interesting. I don't know he's treated any differently. I think that he had gone out and improved him what he could do. And it was, uh, I think, you know, I think Cody was, I, I wouldn't hear for a lot of that. I was here for the very beginning of it. Star dust, you mean? Yeah. But, but again, I love star dust. Yeah. I thought that I thought the start showed on the other side of Cody's personality. And, and again, going away to learn a new hold by God is a good thing sometimes. And you go away and establish yourself somewhere else. It's like, yeah, go make yourself more valuable. I think it's, uh, to me, to Vince, and again, I'm not like some half-assed psychologist, but it almost feels like if you're able to prove that you didn't need Vince McMahon and his creative or his machine to make you successful, he handled you differently. I think that, you know, it's how, how he handled everybody is, I think, pretty much unique to each person. And, and that's all, you know, look, that's different too. And to play psychologist or psychiatrist with Vince McMahon, that's something that better be makes some big money. All right. And again, I, like I've said it a gazillion times. People always think Vince has lost touch. He doesn't fucking know what's going on. Ba-ba-ba. He's out of touch. He, he doesn't know this. He doesn't know that is not understanding that. And when you know him and understand him a little bit better, I don't know anybody understands it. But he's not in the now. He's 10 years ahead. That's where his brain is. That's how his brain works. He, he will look at the now, he will be in the now as far as executing things and working. But he's thinking long term. He's thinking, man, where are we going to be in 10 years? What are we going to do in 10 years? How do we take what we have right now? Where's, where's it going to be? Is it going to work? So you're trying to talk to him about the now and maybe, you know, six months down the road or a year or two. And he's already, and you know, from the network to going public to just so many things over the years that he said and people thought he was crazy. Yet they've all come to fruition. So that would be a scary thing to get inside that head. Let's talk about Royal Rumble 1991. We're not going to, we're just going to set all the Iraq stuff to the side. We've covered that in great detail at the archives, something to wrestle.com. But on the heels of Iraq, will the Iraq war, you know, like, no, I thought you were saying the war Rumble in Iraq. When? Well, no, it's since Saudi Arabia this year, but there's always next year. Yeah. So after watching the Royal Rumble in 91, Dave Meltzer said it might actually be the best WWF paper review event ever. He totally loved it. But one of the things that we haven't spent a lot of time talking about is there was a non televised opener back then. Of course, we called them dark matches. We had Jerry Sags of the nasty boys and a singles match against Sam Houston. Sam had been with the company, I guess, sort of played hokey pokey, but it looks like he's going to be back here. I mean, you think Sam Houston enjoyed more success in the WWF back then? What was the question? Sam Houston. Why didn't he enjoy more success in the WWF? I think Sam could be his, could be his own worst enemy. And sometimes there were, there were periods in Sam's career where people looked at him and thought, man, we can do something with this kid. And Sam had his demons and could be his own worst enemy at times. I look, I, you know, he's Jake's brother. He's Grizzly's kid. It's he had some demons, man, and he had, I wouldn't want to be him. I wouldn't want to wish wish that because he had, he felt that he had to live off of stuff because he had, he felt that he had to live up to Jake's stardom. And, you know, Jake was one of the greatest of all time. And Sam couldn't cut that, that same kind of promo. Sam didn't have that psychology. He didn't have the presence. And I think he was always trying to, to live up to big brother's reputation and live down his dad's reputation. But, um, he was, he was a hell of a talent. It just, man, that was it. He was just a hell of a talent. About 10 days or two weeks after this, he's done. He has his last WWF match. And that's it for Sam Houston in the WWF. The first match on the pay-per-view is one that people are still talking about. The Rockers and the Orient Express, this version of the Orient Express is Pat Tanaka and Paul Diamond. And they got plenty of time, especially for a WWF show back then, 19 minutes. And people really, really enjoyed it, including Meltzer saying, this is the best WWF pay-per-view match since the Steamboat Savage match at WrestleMania three. So it's really, really high praise. And even in January of 91, Meltzer said, clearly Michaels is one of the most talented individuals inside the ring in this business right now. And it got four stars. It was a fantastic tag match. People loved it. What made it so special with the benefit of hindsight, Bruce? I think the, the sheer fact that everybody knew each other so well had worked in different incarnations in different territories and just through the years. Um, four young guys that were looking to make a name for themselves and to go out and press and have a platform. So it's not the Rockers versus the Powers of Pain. It was Rockers and the Orient Express that were similar size, similar, uh, work every, you know, they could work. They could go. And they were excellent, uh, every one of them. They were, they were all excellent. And you put those four together, they make magic. And again, you couldn't, you couldn't always, you couldn't always see the greatness in, in any of the four in other matchups. That ain't makes any sense. You could, but they bought, they all brought out the best in each other. And they were friends. So that always helps. Who would have been advocating for them to get this much time on pay per view? 20 minutes is a, is a commitment on pay per view like this. Is this a pat push or someone else? No, it's, it's, it's, I would look at the show and, and time it out and see. I know how long the rumble needs to be and just look at the other matches and go from there. Go from there. I know you'd like to think there was a lot of thought process into, okay, so I really wanted this match to have four more minutes than this one. It's not really like that. It's a field and it is absolutely the, the most difficult thing to try to explain and to try to teach someone. You either get it or you don't. And you, you can look at, you know, television or you can look at a pay per view and know the, the time frame that you have to work with. And then you have to, it's a puzzle. And then you have to put all that shit together and make it work and make it all come together. So it's just knowing how much time you have or where, where do you want to put it? Where do you want to put it? That's it. And I know that doesn't, we're not looking at, oh, well, this guy deserves three more minutes than that guy or just, it's what match, what, what, where they are on the card, how it fits, how, how the flow of the show is. And you want to start off hot and you want to get them with a hell of a fucking match. If you give them a little bit of time, then they're going to have that hell of a match. And then we, we, you know, being, you know, go into something else, maybe something else, may slow it down or what have you, but it's, it's just a feel. It's, it's a, it's a puzzle. You sit there with the, with the sheet of paper with, with what you have to work with. And then you have to arrange it and put it together. To be clear, I wasn't saying that anyone advocated that this guy deserves this many more minutes or that many more minutes. Well, I'm not saying you did. I'm saying that people think that way something. Sure. I'm just saying, I feel like sometimes I see a WrestleMania card and I know this is a real rumor we're talking about, but you've got so many matches that in order to just fit it into a pay-per-view window, it lends itself to shorter matches. And sometimes it becomes, it feels like from a marketing perspective as a fan, hey, they're trying to try it out as many big stars as they can and build a lot of value, which I get, but I also wonder like somebody in the, in the back had to say, hey, you know what, these guys can have a kick-ass match. We just got to give them enough time to do that. And I think that takes a different skill set to think about wrestling and what's going to be good in execution versus, hey, what looks good for marketing purposes, if that makes sense. Yeah. I don't, I don't think a marketing purpose is on laying out a show. And, and, and I think laying out the show is different. It's your marketing purposes is promotion all ahead of time, which you're going to have. But you can't give those guys a lot of time if you got a lot of matches you've advertised. No, you can't. How many matches were on this card? Not, not nearly as many as, or as a WrestleMania course. Okay. So I mean, there weren't a lot of matches. So that allows more time for, for the attractions. And then you've got, you've got the main attraction that's going to take at least an hour and 15 minutes. So that boom, you take that hour and 15 minutes. That's how the equation, you go over here and you start looking at everything else. But really it's just a puzzle in a field. And it's, when you talk about star power, well, we were trotting out all the star power in, In the rumble. In the rumble itself. So you're getting a lot of star power. And I might argue if we had that time, which we did not, you know, a pay-per-view every, every month. Every month, then it would probably be in, in different. I do want to ask, because it feels like there has been an about face with the company through the years. Once upon a time, we would hear of guys getting their WrestleMania moment cut. So, hey, we ran out of time. Your match is cut. Guys like Jeff Chirrett, WrestleMania 10. It didn't happen. You know, matches went long and, and, and we just ran out of time. These days, and I know we don't talk about current stuff, but these days it feels like we're leaning into fewer matches and they're allowed more time. Is, is that, when do you think Vince sort of shifted gears on that? Or is that a more modern thing in your opinion? Well, I think it, I think it's a bit of a more modern thing, but also the, when, when you look at it, I don't, I go back and, and watch sometimes. Ten matches on a card. It's hard to watch. And when you, when you look at presentation and you, you put so many things in a 10 match card, at the end of the night, what do you remember? And you're most likely going to remember the main event, the last match you saw. But there may have been a big angle in the third match, a hell of a match that you have forgotten because you have seen so much other shit. Good, bad, and indifferent. So I think less is more. But, you know, sometimes, yeah, you have to battle that demon of, oh my god, we need to get more people on this. So, and so, you know, we've got to get more people on this, WrestleMania. The, the, the, the PLE, the streaming aspect of the business has changed that dynamic completely because, A, talent's not paid on, on pay-per-view buys. There are no pay-per-view buys. The, there is no time allotment. You can give them an hour, you can give them five hours, whatever. They don't really want more than three. And, you know, they're, they're just, it's, it's a different time. It's a different, different way that people consume. So those, you know, God, I need my WrestleMania moment. Wait a minute, man, you're gonna have a moment next month and you're gonna be the main event. Yeah, but I want to be on WrestleMania. Hey, where? This is gonna get lost here and we can't do this here because we're doing this at Mania. There's just a lot more, a lot more territory, man. There's a lot more just avenues. And plus, by the way, you're doing television every single week. You have five hours of TV every week. And that's, that's a lot of television. And television is just as valuable as the PLEs with rights fees and what have you now. So to be on television to a huge number of people versus PLE and again, that has changed too. It's just every time you're on screen is valuable. It's all valuable. Very expensive real estate. Let's talk about Patsanaka and Paul Diamond here. A great tag team. I don't think maybe they got their flowers enough in this era of the WWF. In your mind, is that a size thing? Is that a height thing or was Vince just not focused on tag teams or was there a ceiling for heel tag teams in the WWF? What do you think? No, they were excellent. They were, they were great. I think Pat had issues at the time. I had women's Paul had Paul had issues. They both had issues. And sometimes those outweighed their talent. And you had to, you had to wonder, okay, do I want to invest in these guys? And they're going to screw up some other way. So, you know, look, there's a lot of things that people don't see and don't know about. And unfortunately, you know, for both of them, by God, man, Pat Tanaka is a entering talent. And very few people could touch him as a trainer. Excellent. And I absolutely love Pat personally. But I don't know if Pat had everything together and wasn't in, by being in different things, then he might have had a different career. You know, same thing, same thing with Paul. And both of those guys just didn't have to try. They were so good, they didn't even have to try. They just were naturals. Pat Tanaka was, man, there wasn't anything he couldn't do. A great psychology. And Pat was one of those that could just go out and do it. You could put him in any situation and he could just do it. Do it better than anybody else. But, you know, it just, it's, and yes, look, man, the size definitely played a part there, too. But mostly, then boys like to party. Yeah, I got you. More so than others. Let's talk about the Rockers. You know, it was about two and a half months prior to this that they won the tag belts, but you're probably, if you only watch TV, asking yourself, what, I don't remember that happening, of course, infamously, the top rope broke and they decided not to air it and, and, and, uh, night heart wound up re-signing. So they stuck around. But hypothetically, if that top rope, top rope would not have broken and the Rockers became the tag champs, would it have changed their trajectory? Do you think that they still break up a year later? Or they always going to go their separate ways? Or would this tag team run have been extended if they did become the tag champs? Do you think? Well, I mean, they would have been champions, but I think they still would have broken up. I think inevitably they would have broken up. They just, it was, they had to. So, but no one, no one will ever know that. Personality wise, they had to. I think so. I think so. And look, um, Sean more so than Marty, but Sean was very driven in as far as, you know, wanting, wanting that single spotlight, wanting to be the guy. And he was happy doing what he was doing, but he knew there was more and wanted, and wanted more. So talk to me about, uh, 91 Sean. And January of 91, Meltzer saying he's one of the best guys in the ring in the entire business. Did you see it that way in January of 91? Man, I saw it that way in April or May of 87. He had it. He had it. Sean would walk into a bar and walk into the airport like he was seven feet tall. Sean had a chip on his shoulder, had an attitude, and you, you just looked at him and, and wasn't the biggest guy in the room. Sean wasn't a tiny guy. He's, he's six, one or whatever he is. And, uh, it was, but he walked in like he was seven feet tall. He dressed and the, had that cocky, arrogant attitude, man. It was like, you knew, you knew Sean Michaels was in the room. So go all the way back to 87 when, when they were in for a day and fired. There was something special about him. And he was just destined. He was destined to go along and do his own thing. Hey, I do want to ask you about this next promo because after that fabulous tag match with the Rockers and the Orient Express, we do get this, um, interview. I guess we'll call it with Sean Mooney and Sherry Martell. It feels like it goes on way too long. And then here comes warrior. She's clearly trying to convince him to give Randy Savage a title shot. She's talking about very seductively their lips touching. And then she starts to like drop down on her knees in front of him. Now, of course I'm watching this as a nine year old and I have no idea what the hell's going on. But as an adult, I'm like, wait, are they trying to get kind of edgy on the program here? What can you tell us about why? What was the goal with this promo and was it meant to be edgy? Why was Sherry getting down on her knees? Like, how do you know how that's okay? Simply to beg. Now, again, you can take it however you want to if you've got that kind of a mind. You got a dirty mind and why don't you rub it in your chest? Talk about how much she admires him and how their lips should touch and all this. Yeah, seductive. She's seducing him. So that's, that's what it was. You know, she's trying to use her womanly ways to seduce him. He's a man after all, men like women. So she's seducing him and trying to get him to come to the other side, if you will. I guess what I mean is in 91, you know, we got this promo and then later in the year, we've got the whole Ultimate Warrior being locked in an airtight casket. And you got Jake Roberts slapping Miss Elizabeth and the Cobra biting Randy Savage's arm and Hogan and Slaughter throwing fireballs at each other. And it feels like we're, we're trying to be more edgy. Was that a conscious decision that you think Vince made? Because previously it does feel like we were catering more towards kids and, and we certainly still are, but we're trying some more adult themed ideas in 91. Would that be fair to say? Yeah. Yeah. I think it was pushing the envelope and seeing how far they could go. And a lot of those things. So for example, and I wasn't there when they did the Cobra stuff, but they did get a lot of bad feedback from their syndication partners that, you know, you don't watch your kid watching your hero get bit by a snake Saturday morning at 10. Not good for business. So, you know, there was pushback on some of that stuff. Of course, not everybody has the power to throw flames from their fingertips. Well, it is special. That's something they can't get a hold of. So you can get a hold of the Cobra. What? I don't know. It just tickles. You know, you got a Cobra there in Appalama. I don't actually. I don't. I may have a pair of shoes that are nicknamed that. No, those are mom was. Are you in Florida right now? No, I'm in Huntsville. Okay. I'm in Florida. I am. I am. Yeah. They got Cobra's there. Get you Cobra there. I don't. I don't really want one. I'm good. By the way, I don't know that you remember Steve Paddy, but Steve Paddy is working in our office. And he, he has a phobia of, well, anything that's not human. So he's on mouse patrol. I guess there was a field mouse near our office and it just absolutely scared the ever loving shit out of him. Well, recently, as we're recording earlier this week, he's the first one in the office one morning at like seven 30. It's his key in the door goes to turn the lock and all of a sudden a bird flies out of the tree by the front door towards him. He took a bump, asked over T cattle, banged up his watch. Luckily he broke the fall with his face on pavement and he's all straight up. Is pavement okay? Pavements great. My dad has the exact same question. That's why you and LT get along so well. And we've all taken turns busting his balls this week as we should, but he also offers that he's only scared of rodents and birds. And I said, so you're not scared of snakes. And he said, no. And I suggested if we put a snake in your desk drawer, no problem. He says no problem. And I feel like it's my obligation as a man to put a snake in his desk drawer. Don't you think? Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Did he kill the mice? Did he kill the mouse? He made sure that we called cooks pest control and they went and put traps all around. They've secured the perimeter. We've had them out three times to make sure that he never sees a field mice, a field mouse again. So I want a conference call one time. Vince and everybody and this was in League City, Texas. And I'm on the call and we're going through this thing and I hear shrieking in the other room. And my wife and kids are like screaming at the top of their lungs and I'm like, what the hell? And everybody on the call is like, what the hell is that? God damn it. Maybe you better check that out. So I go in. Everybody is up on the couch and chair and stuff. The cushions are all like out and shit. And my wife is screaming, there's a mouse. There's a mouse. I said, where is it? Does it kill it? And she said, no, no, no, just get it out of here. So I see the mouse and I open up the back door, which is right there. And I take a broom and I basically assure the mouse out the back door. And the mouse runs out the back door and he's hauling ass. He had to be one of them blind mice, you know, one of the three. I don't know where his other two brothers were because the son of a bitch ran right out the back door and bam, right into the pool. And so his little thing is swimming in the pool and all this shit. And now she's freaked out. I'm like, okay, he's in the pool. He's out of the house and it'll be fine. He'll find his way out. And she's like, oh my God, you can't let him stay there. Poor little mouse. It's a wait a minute ago. You're screaming for me to get the mouse out and kill the mouse. I didn't want to kill the mouse. I'm gonna do this. I said, now you want me to save the mouse from drowning. Drowning. I'm going to put them. I'm going to get the mouse out and then you're going to run right back in the house. No, she's going to save him. Save him. So I take the little net for the pool. I scoop him up in the net and I just fling him. Oh, no. And all you hear on the other side is. And now she's concerned that the mouse is dead in the road. I mentioned I was on a conference call with Vince and she insists I go out to the street to find the mouse. And I did not just kick him in the neighbor's yard and said, yeah, he's good. He's sleeping. He's sleeping. He's sleeping. Who is sleeping in the yard over there is sleeping. You need cats at your house. Now I got I got being nothing else coming in this house. New year, big goals, no time to cook. Well, factor makes it easy with fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs so you can easily eat well without shopping or cooking. 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Make healthier eating easy with factor factor meals.com slash wrestle 50 off and the promo code is wrestle 50 off. She was talking about, let's talk about what was coming into the Royal Rumble in the next match here. It's the big boss man and the barbarian. They actually get plenty of time here, 14 minutes and 14 seconds. Now I know a lot of people are going to see that's what everybody says, but I got to tell you, this has become a cult classic. A lot of fans have gone back and revisited this match and I've even seen some people say it's the match of the night, but considering we just talked about a pretty fantastic tag match really is a stretch. I think barbarian has probably been misaligned for years as being just a body guy. He shows, he's got his working boots on here and it was a great match. But I think this may be peak boss man in this era. He had great matches with barbarian, Ted DiBiasi, Mr. Perfect and others. When do you think great trailer was at his absolute best? I personally loved Ray when he first came in as the boss man, when he was the big heavy set boss man and he was mean and nasty and had slick as his manager and he just, he could go for a big man. Now I'm glad he dropped all of his weight and he got healthy and all that stuff and looked good and was able to move without his knees, bothering him and all that stuff. But for my money, I just love that big, nasty prison guard from Cobb County, Georgia. That was just, he looked like every redneck cop from Tennessee or Alabama or Georgia, Texas. Hey boy, what you doing there? You know, and it's just, I thought that was his best work because a big man like that shouldn't have been able to do the things that he did. So with that said, I thought Ray was an unbelievable worker and especially he was a great big man that could move and that could do shit. So and barbarian, look man, you said barbarian being a body guy. I think that the barbarian from day one and look the powers of pain stuff never liked it. And both guys, you couldn't find two nicer guys in Barb and Warlord. But Barb was a tremendous, was a tremendous worker, tremendous single. God, when in 90, was it 91, 92, whatever the hell it was. When I had the opportunity to go to WCW, that's who I wanted to manage was barbarian. 92, yeah, that's right. I wanted to manage barbarian to go to Halloween havoc with Sting. And Mick Foley ended up getting that spot when I didn't show up. Let's talk about the next match because this is a big one. When people think about Royal Rumble 91, they always think about Warrior's title ring coming to an end. He's going to drop the title to Sergeant Slaughter here in 12 minutes and 45 seconds. Warrior's out in red, white and blue. And he's taking on Sergeant Slaughter for the title. Again, we're at the height of the interest in the Iraq war at this point. And here comes lots of interference with Adnan and with with Sherry and certainly with Randy Savage. He absolutely shatters that scepter across Warrior's head. A really stiff shot. Apparently, maybe some hurt feelings on the other side of it. I'm not sure. But we know that we've got a new champion and Meltzer would point out later in this same issue of the Observer where he's recapping the show where he says it's the best WWF paper view event ever. Just to clear up a point, if it comes up, Slaughter would have won the title even if a war hadn't broken out. So no matter what, you guys were moving the title off of Warrior. Talk to me about this match and why you felt like this was the right time to take the belt off of Warrior. Because we needed to get to Rustamania. It was just that simple. It was always the plan. And it was, you know, it was in some ways a two fold. But, you know, look, that was always the plan for Sarge to go into Rustamania as the champion and and to do it there kind of segue Randy. And Randy was finishing up his in ring career at that point. That was why the, you know, the whole retirement match and all that stuff with Warrior at Rustamania 7. But yeah, that was always the plan. And the scepter that shattered the guy's name, that was Dr. Paint. And when the when he hit him with the deal and it was it was an extra large whatever little little glass thing on the on the end of the scepter and Randy hit him with it. Randy hit him with the scepter part of it as well. And so the, you know, the sugar glass and all that went. But that stuff will still cut you. And it he also had a little what they call little English on the on that thing. And the Warrior know he was there. And it wasn't like they didn't like each other. But I think it was look, Randy, Randy can be snug. You say hello. Any new feelings in the back between those guys? Do you think? I don't think so. You know, they both knew where where everything was going. And it was just the right way to get there. No, I don't I don't think there was. They like it. You look, they liked each other enough and they got along and Randy was, you know, Randy was happy to do the honors for Warrior at Rustamania and was like, okay, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it with him. You know, I don't know. I don't know if he would have wanted to do it with Hulk and I and I don't know why that just popped in my head, but I don't know. But he had no problem doing it with Warrior. Let me let me freestyle something. You know, the biggest pay-per-view prior to this, I know was technically survivor series, but let's go back to Summer Slam. Summer Slam 1990 at least was marketed as almost like a double main event. Because on the posters, you had earthquake and Hulk. We know what earthquake had done when he put hard times on Hulk Kogan on the brother love show, but we would also see the big blue steel cage match for the WBF title with Warrior defending against Rick rude. And I know you said, well, we had to, you know, get the belt off of him. We needed to get ready for WrestleMania. Was there ever a consideration to do in a double main event like that again at WrestleMania seven? And I know you wind up going with the retirement match of Saddam of Savage and and Warrior and that wound up being one of, if not the best match of Warriors career, but it does feel like if events was really disappointed with the buy rate from 90 relative to 89. Do you think it was ever considered? Hey, let's just run it back with Savage and Hogan again at WrestleMania seven and then leave this slaughter warrior thing for the title as the other co main event. Or at that point, did we feel like, Hey, we've done all we need to do with Hogan and Savage. No, that was never a consideration. And the other look, the other part of that is, I think we were so far down that road of Holt and the Iraqi sympathizer. It was, by God, we're going to do it. And again, you know, hindsight 2020, you know, not the greatest idea in the world. And it was, it was complicated and it was, I think that at that point, that may have been a line in the sand that needed, that did not need to be drawn. I'm going to stand my ground by God and then when this is what we're going to do. And like, I, do we have to do that? You know, is there, but I don't know that there was another I don't know that there was anything else in the book that would have been hotter. Hulkan and Randy had been done. And, and at that point in time, there wasn't, you know, things change. But, but he never wanted to do a return at WrestleMania in the, in the main. Always wanted to have a fresh match. So doing Hulk and Randy never would have even been, been on the table. But who knows, you know, who knows? And by trying to think by that point, no, I'm Randy and Hulk weren't really bad at that point. It got worse. That's later, later that year. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to ask you, you know, when we're talking about, we were so far in with the idea, we're like, by God, we're going to do it. It almost feels like that is you saying that Vince had sort of dug his heels in and maybe there were signs that, you know, he shouldn't have, that he maybe should have. And he or two, but instead he was like, let's stand the torpedoes. Let's do this thing. Is this the first time you remember Vince doing that when you worked with him? I know that he does it in other times. I mean, we've at least heard those stories, but is this the most prominent example of that? You can remember where, even if everyone around him is saying, but, but, but he's like, no, damn it, this is what we're doing. Is this the first time or just another day at the office? I think it would be. No, this, look, it was the first time in my lifetime that, you know, I, well, I was live from Vietnam and, but it was the first time in my lifetime that we were, you know, as an adult, we were at war with another country. So that kind of changed people's feelings on things. And you had, you know, you had friends, kids who, who were going over there and doing all this shit. And it just was a different feeling. The country had a different vibe and you, it was just different. And this was one of those things that every night you're getting updates, you're getting, you know, from my God, we've done this today, my God, we've done that today. And there was just a sentiment of negativity around, around the war, around Iraq, around Saddam Hussein. And it just was, that's where the traditional, by God, you know, in the old days, your war with Japan, your top heel is going to be Japanese. Your war with Germany, your top heel is going to be a German. Your war with Russia, top heel is going to be Russian. And we were at war with Iraq and our top heel was an Iraqi sympathizer, and an Iraqi with legit ties to the leader of Iraq. School boy, you know, friends. And, yeah, not, not good. And, and again, that's all, it's hindsight, it was in the moment too. And there were, I think there were those, and look, I'm one of them that kind of felt like, you know, oh, any heat's good heat. And I was, I was one of the few that was okay with the burning of the flag. Hated it. I mean, I hated it. I think anybody does it, should, you know, hated it, but they made such a big deal out of making it legal. And, and, you know, like Seb said before, Jesse Ventura was like, my God, you know, it's legal now, you want to get some heat, do it. But the symbolism that we did was, kissing your sister didn't get the heat of the other one, but the other one, you know, burning the flag would have been, I don't think that that would have been something we could have come back from. So I'm, I'm so grateful that we did not do it. And it's just so many decisions in that, in that timeframe, because you're going on, what is traditionally worked in the business? What's traditionally works is you have a heel that people can genuinely feel and hate. By God, that was Sergeant Slaughter. And you have the American hero in Hulk Hogan, that by God, you want to beat that fucking foreigner so bad. And it made it worse that he was a former Sergeant Slaughter, man, you know, USA, everything. And that was a misread. I think that was a misread on, on the audience, on, on the country, on, on, on our business, on everything we were doing. That was a misread. That was a big miss. And there was a court, look, there was a core audience that was, that was right there, man, you know, USA, USA. And, but you can't go back and undo shit. And, and we did it. And it didn't do good business. And it was, but we did it. You live and learn. This message is sponsored by Raycon. It's Raycon's anniversary. And what better way to celebrate than with a deal on everyday earbuds classics. They're not 20% off. So it's the perfect time to get your hands on these reliable, super comfy and easy to take anywhere. You'll see why they've been a fan favorite ever since day one. The everyday earbuds classics are loaded with upgrades, active noise cancellation, multi-point connectivity. So you can pair with multiple devices at once, an ergonomic fit that actually stays put no matter what you're doing. And honestly, the new Raycons, well, the new colors are a vibe. I got to tell you, my wife likes the blush violet. I kind of dig the cool mint. 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Let's talk about what you did a little differently after this. Normally, whenever there's a major event that happens at a pay-per-view on the syndicated programs, we would just see still images like, you know, last weekend at the Royal Rumble are on January 19th and it would just be, you know, screen grabs. But on this particular instance, switching the title and the interference from Randy Savage and the warrior, you actually show footage in the syndicated shows. Why the deviation there? Did you feel like you had a good enough angle or was the swing so real that you thought, man, we got to show this full speed? It was a risk. It was a risk. And the reason that we never showed footage was because cable companies would really be upset when we did. Trust me. I know that from WrestleMania five. I almost got fired for showing the finish. It was a risk. It was a risk for the cable companies, but it was a calculated risk in that it was meant to further that story. And it also wasn't quote the main attraction of that show. The main attraction was Royal Rumble, and that could be argued. So like we didn't show the main event. They didn't show the rumble. The whole everything's about the Royal Rumble. And that argument could be made. So it was a risk, but it was something we wanted to try because, yeah, you wanted to show you wanted to show that physicality. You wanted to see that switch. It did look at serve many masters. It served the heat for Sarge winning the title and it served to further Randy and warrior to the to WrestleMania. And so you had a lot of arguments there. And I don't you look, there were a few that said, Oh my God, you guys showed footage from the pay per view. So okay, we're sorry. We won't do it again. But yeah, you it was calculated risk. Next up, we're going to get the Mountie and Coco beware. This feels like a placeholder that would normally in years past been used for almost intermission. But I guess after you've got something that had so much heat having a cold match like this, I think you and Bruce would have or you and Pat would have called this a let me up match. Yes, this would be Hey folks, relax, call your friends, tell them what's happened. Go to the bathroom, get a beer and move on. Let's talk about the next match. This is a big one. Ted, D B, Aussie and Virgil are going to be in a tag team match and pick up a win over Dusty and Dustin. This is of course a backdrop for the long away to D B, Aussie, Virgil split. This is of course going to be Dusty Rhodes finishing up here with the WWF. He's headed for WCW and Dustin, of course, going to be following his dad as well. But the whole D B, Aussie, Virgil split. Do you think that you guys had the end in mind when you first introduced the character? I mean, that does feel very wrestling, right? Like all tag teams and on screen pairings or what have you, they eventually break up. But did you always envision that this one would be, you know, on a major stage and platform and knew that there would be a few to follow? Yeah, look, man, the idea here was, or Teddy and Virgil split up. And the, you know, yes, there was always, you're always looking at for that big breakup, the audience with the heel manager. And usually it would, you would turn the, the heel baby face and everything. The manager would say the heel and then you want to get the hands on him. It was a little bit different with this in that, you know, Virgil was a sympathetic character. He'd been abused by D B, Aussie, million dollar man for so long that you wanted him to stand up for himself so bad. You wanted him to finally clock his boss. And and, you know, everybody wants to just smack the shit out of the guy with million dollars who flaunts his money and is a big mouth and everything. So this was to do that, but it also was like, all right, there's anything in Virgil, we're going to find out. We're going to find out real quick because Virgil had also been just coming and saying, man, I want to work, I want to work, you know, I can do this, I can do that and all this shit. The reason Virgil was a valet is because he was not a good worker. And, you know, he was, he was sold trained Jones, ST Jones in, in Nashville and in Tennessee for a while. But it was, he really wanted to work and felt he'd been, he said, I've been working on, you know, my in ring stuff. And so we're looking at, hey, this is an opportunity to give Virgil the ball, see what he does with it. And well, you saw what he did with it. But no, this was always the plan. This was to be able to get us to mania with kind of a nice, you know, match. And it was also, we knew you got DBA see in there. I think I could have a good match to DBA see. And it's like, okay, we're going to see what he can do with with the best of the best. And just didn't really work out that way. I'm going to stop short of comparing it to Hogan Savage, but this had built organically for years and years. Seeing the abuse that Virgil was taking, fans wanted so desperately for him to just clock DBA see. So when it finally happens, man, I think a lot of people were really excited to see this match. It had been a long time coming four years. Yeah, you don't always get that equity that you can build into a character and be able to, you know, I think every time that you put someone together, there's always in the back of your head, why God, when they break up, this is going to be huge. But from the get go with Virgil and the million dollar man, it was such a subservient relationship. And DBA see was such an asshole that even in the time that they were the nastiest appeals, you wanted Virgil to just knock him on his ass. Yes. Yeah. And it was it was a nice payoff. You know, obviously, we lost Virgil and we want to be very respectful, but it does feel like you guys realized Virgil had a ceiling fairly quickly. Is there anything with the benefit of hindsight that you could have done differently to keep that momentum going? Because we know on the other side of the DBA see feud, Virgil is going to kind of be a preliminary guy, but it does feel like fans were with him so much here with the benefit of hindsight. Is there anything you could have done differently to just keep building Virgil somehow post DBA see or was it always going to be a one trick pony? Well, we were hoping it was not a one trick pony. We were hoping, you know, look, you always want to hope for the other side to be great both talent. Unfortunately, in this situation, it was all Ted. And even the support for Virgil post Ted, just they didn't care. They cared about Ted. They hated they hated the million dollar man. They hated everything that he stood for. They hated the way he treated Virgil and Virgil was that conduit. Virgil was that guy that I could get behind that finally stood up and I wanted to stand up. But once he did, like you kind of went, Oh, he's he's not very good beyond this. That audience then goes, Okay, I'll go over here. It's just Virgil was in the right spot, man. He was he was great bodyguard. He was great in that spot. He was great to punch a guy here and there to distract and trip. But to have a have a match bell to bell with somebody wasn't really his forte. Let's talk about the Royal Rumble. 1991. The immortal Hulk Hogan is going to throw out Earthquake to win the Royal Rumble. It goes 65 minutes and 16 seconds. And Meltzer even back here noted that when Hulk dumped out tugboat at 5855, Meltzer wrote in the Observer in parentheses, a feud in about nine months, which I thought was fascinating that he that he was suggesting that, Hey, maybe there's something there. And you, of course, have revealed in your sense. Now, that was actually an idea. She took boat. Hulk dumping tugboat. Could it have gone to anything? Was it a backup plan? Was it done as a placeholder in case you needed it? Talk me through that. It was it was a way to display every man for himself. And and yes, they they were friends. So it was it was displaying that every man for himself. And possibly on down the line. Yeah, maybe you could get there. But who really knew? And it was, you know, I think it probably could have been a remnant of what we were thinking and what we were going to do at one point. Because, you know, this one, Pat and I, you know, put together, we did we did it with Vince at the house there in Boca. And sat there and just went through all of that shit and went through every little thing. So it was probably a holdover. But it was an intriguing holdover. It was an intriguing moment. This, of course, is the the 1991 Royal Rumble. We know that in 92, the winner is going to become the champion. And then in subsequent years, whoever wins the rumble gets a title shot at WrestleMania. You're welcome. Could you have done that here in 91 and said whoever wins the rumble gets a title shot? I guess what I'm asking is, is this the rumble where you realized, hey, maybe we do need stakes like it can't just be for bragging rights. It's going to lead the Royal Rumble. I mean, WrestleMania. Absolutely. Absolutely could have done it. And I daresay probably should have done it, but it took a while. It took a while to convince him to do it. Is there an alternate universe where somehow, some way Hulk Hogan captures the world title or maybe earthquake wins the world title and Hulk Hogan wins this match? I'm wondering, do you think there's an alternate universe where instead of the controversial Sergeant Slaughter Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania, would Vince have ever bought in to earthquake and Hulk Hogan for the title at WrestleMania? No, we'd seen that. And I think again, it was looking at the attractions for WrestleMania, especially during those times was to give them something new. A first time ever, never, you know, never before seen type of a match is the main attraction. And it was you had just seen that earthquake Hogan issue. And I don't think that would have ever been on the table. I definitely couldn't have seen that. I wouldn't have. Yeah. When we're talking about, you know, Royal Rumble, of course, everybody is this time of year. Most fans point to 92 is their absolute favorite. But if we do a look back and we take a look at 88, one by Hacksaw Jim Duggan, and then we took a look at 89. And I know that one was probably one that you were fond of. But is there, you know, Big John Stun was stud 189 and then in 90 and 91, Hogan won them both. Did you have a favorite rumble before 92? So 88, 89, 90, 91. Does one stand out above all the others to you? Yeah. And it's only just sentimental is the first one. Because that was that was the first show that I ever produced live for television. I had done, you know, at that point, we had done a survivor series. So I'd had done that. But then the Royal Rumble, I wrote it, produced it, timed it, did everything. And that was like my first time doing live television. And just the lessons that I learned there, I'll never forget. And it was such a such a wild ride all the way all the way down the lot. And that's my favorite just for because it was my first. And it was the first one for so many reasons and all the different things that happened in it. My favorite was 1990. We want to hear from you guys. What was your favorite rumble amongst 88, 89, 90, and 91. We'll call it the Preflayer 92 rumble. Let us know in the comments below. And we're not done talking about Royal Rumble all of January is going to be a Royal Rumble celebration. In the coming weeks, we'll talk about 1996. We'll talk about 2001. And before you know it, this year's Royal Rumble will be here. Bruce, I never know what to say at the end of these. I'm having a blast doing these again. It feels like old times and I'm ready for next week, man. Looking forward to it. All right, man. We'll see you next week right here on something to wrestle with Bruce, Richard Rock on. All right, real quick, want to remind everybody, especially this time of year, did you know what say with Conrad dot com? You can skip your next two house payments. That's right. You'll get a cheaper monthly payment and no payments until next year about a little Christmas vacation from house payments. That's right. No payments in November or December at save with Conrad.com.