You know, there are fragrances that have properties that make you feel better. And what are those? So it's really about an exploration. Hi, welcome back to How Much Can I Make? I'm Marav Ozeri. Today we're stepping into the invisible world of scent. Our guest is Gillian Friedman, a fragrance evaluator, product developer and an educator. She helps create the scent that we smell every day, from perfumes to candles to personal care items. So let's turn to Gillian and find out what it really takes to work in the fragrance industry. Welcome Gillian, glad to have you on the show. My pleasure to be here. Great, so I read your resume and read about you and your experience in the fragrance industry is vast. So please tell us briefly what is it that you do. I am technically in the fragrance industry considered a fragrance evaluator. And a fragrance evaluator is somebody who works closely with perfumers. I call it like an editor. Writers have editors that edit their work and perfumers collaborate with support teams. And evaluation is a key support team to perfumers to help create fragrances that are going to best respond to their clients' needs and wants. And the evaluator is an educated consumer. So the evaluator really understands the consumer, the brands and acts as a go-between. And also understands the perfumer and the perfumer's language because fragrance is really a language in and of itself. And not everybody understands the language or knows the vocabulary. It's very esoteric. So that's where the training comes in. And so I really understand a lot of all the raw materials that perfumers work with from a technical standpoint. Of course, not as much as they do. I also understand trends and the consumers and the brands. How did you get involved in the industry? How did you start? What got you interested? I was working when I graduated college from the University of Vermont. I was a French major, a French and business major, and I applied to every French company I could think of in New York City. I got a job working for a French bank and I really didn't enjoy it very much. And my mother actually read an article about a very well-known fragrance consultant. And she gave me that article and I read it. And I was fascinated by what this woman was doing because I would smell everything and I was very sensorally oriented. So you were always into scent from a young age? I was not necessarily perfumes per se, but I was very into food, into scents, into touching things, into colors and all of that. So when I read this article, I said, wow, this is something fascinating. I would love to do this. And I looked her up in the phone book. And I called her up and I said, hi Jill, her name was Jill. I'm Jill. And I would really like to talk to you about what you do. And she invited me up to her apartment and I remember it very clearly. There was like a big glass coffee table with lots of bottles on it and she was wearing a beautiful, she was beautiful. It still is. She sat me down and talked to me about the industry and explained a lot of things and introduced me to people in the industry and pointed me in the right direction. So when did you realize it could be your profession right there and then in that conversation? Well, no. So what happened then? A headhunter called me up and said he had a fragrance job in Bushwick, Brooklyn at a fragrance house that was not a fine fragrance house, but more of a consumer products and also food. So I went for the interview. It was an entry level evaluation job and I got the job. And they had a perfumer there who would come back and forth from Nice, very well known high perfumer, high end perfumer who did Montana and a lot of well known classic fragrances. He knew that I was a French speaking, passionate, interested person and he took me under his wing and trained me. When you say training, did he train you on raw materials or how? Yes, yes. How? Develop your scent more? Yeah, so to work in this industry, you have to A, be interested in it because you're using muscles that you don't normally use. Oh. Not muscles physically, your muscles and you know, theoretically because when you smell, it's involuntary. You're not conscious. You're just always smelling. But to make it conscious, you have to be interested. You developed all kinds of fragrance for soap, for candles, for perfumes. What makes a fragrance truly stand up today in the crowded space like this? In my opinion, what makes a fragrance stand out is when it's different. There's something that I teach my students and that's the relationship between memorability and commerciality. So when you're working for a big corporation, they depend on sales, right? And what sells is what people know. And what people know is not necessarily the most unique, but they love. You know, Jador or the top fragrance everybody's wearing. And that's what tests well if you're going to do consumer testing. But what tests well is what's familiar. And what's unfamiliar is considered polarizing to people. That's because it has, you know, like an exaggeration of notes or something, some ingredient that's disruptive. And that's what makes something memorable. So what stands the test of time, you know, like Chanel number five? I know people still use it. It's amazing. Because it has, you know, an exaggeration of a chemical called an aldehyde. And that aldehyde made this fragrance unmistakable and unique. So when people smell it, they recognize it. Did other companies try to use aldehyde? People use aldehydes. There are aldehydic florals. When you smell an aldehyde on its own, it's not like the most pleasant odor. But, you know, that's okay because not everything in a perfume is pleasant on its own. But it serves a purpose in the mix of the formula. What is it like smelling intentionally all day? Yeah, so smelling is tiring for sure. When you're smelling a lot, there's a way to smell. Nose can get saturated by the odor molecules and you really have to step away and come back. You always smell under both nostrils and then you take the blotter away and then you bring it back in. You get tired. The best thing to do is to breathe out into your sleeve and kind of expel whatever it is that you're working with. Or take a break. I know that smell, at least for me, it's very associative. I could love something and my friend will hate it. So as an evaluator, what do you judge a fragrance by? So what's important when you're evaluating a fragrance is to put yourself in the shoes of the target market and the consumer that's going to be buying it. So, for example, I was director of global product development at Avon for six years. And while I was there, I was not an Avon consumer. But my job was to elevate the fragrance offerings and the product development within the range of the Avon consumer. I couldn't put my own personal taste necessarily into the mix. I wasn't developing for me. I was developing for Avon. So you kind of have to be very impartial. I want to touch about the fragrance development. You walk us through from the creative spark that you have to the finished products. What's the process like? Fragrance always starts with a brief. And the brief is something that you put together to inspire the perfumer to get their creative juices going. And in that brief, you really explain who the brand is, everything possible about the brand, about the product, about the concept, about the colors, about the package. Like, for example, Vera Wang, right? I worked on with Vera Wang. Who's Vera Wang, all the other cross-categorical products that she works on, you know, for example, lingerie or wedding dresses or silks. You want to know everything about the brand that you're working with. And then you create a mood board to show the concept of what the fragrance is going to be and if you have a name or an inspiration. Because what happens is you analyze a portfolio and you see where the gaps are and where this new launch should be categorically in terms of fragrance family. Like, should it be a citrus or should it be a floral or should it be a sheep or a fougere? Is it masculine? Is it feminine? Is it unisex? Is it what are the characteristics of it? And then you say things that you want in the fragrance, like some sort of innovation or some sort of floral seed. Then you also give them a no list. For example, I don't want it to smell too sweet or jammy or it should be sophisticated or youthful or whatever it is. So you give as many keywords as possible. You know, it really depends because it could go so many ways. You could be very specific or you could say, you know what, I just want you, so-and-so, perfumer to really give me your best inspiration. But you need to say, is it mass market? Is it prestige? Is it niche? Meaning, is it going to be very unique and polarizing or is it going to be more commercial? And also, you give them price parameters to work with. So for example, you say, I want an eau de parfum. So that, for example, could be 18% of fragrance juice up to 25% or even higher. Or is it like an eau de cologne, which could be like 10% to 12% or eau de toilette, which could be 15%. And then you give them the cost parameters with which to work within. So is it $300 a pound or is it $50 a pound depending on who's launching the fragrance? You teach fragrance at FIT, Fashion Institute of Technology. Why did you choose FIT? So the reason why I chose to teach at FIT is because when I was growing up in this industry or coming up in the industry, there were no formal schools in the US. I applied to Iside Ca, which is the French perfumery school in Versailles that many perfumers graduate and evaluators graduate from. And I actually got accepted to that school because I was probably the only American, the first American who applied at that time. Anyway, the reason why I decided to teach at FIT is because now there is a school in the US and I think for me it's very important to give back to the industry and to help mentor and inspire up-and-coming people who are passionate the way I was when I was young. What do they learn there? Oh, they learn everything. So really, it's very complex and comprehensive. So first they learn the physiology of all faction and how the nose works and all of that. They learn the history of fragrance. They learn about all the different methods of extraction of raw materials. They receive a fragrance kit, which we started doing during COVID so that we could keep teaching the class of like 50 raw materials that they use. We have a lecture, a two-hour lecture, and then a lab for two hours. So in the lab, they are actually making fragrances. They start off with very small accords like a top note, a mid-note, a floral accord, and then they put it all together. And in the end, they learn, their final project is the brief, which I explained where they brief a perfumer and they have, you know, they put it all together. They learn the language of the perfumery. They learn how to write fragrance descriptions. They learn how to verbalize what they're smelling. They learn about genealogy charts and how we classify fragrances according to their fragrance categories, kind of like a family tree. They learn about iconic fragrances and fragrance trends. They visit fragrance houses. They learn about artificial intelligence. They learn about the regulatory challenges of fragrance and how it's constantly changing and evolving and how that works. So very comprehensive. And one of the new courses that I've been writing with the chair of the department is on beauty and wellness. That's really my goal is to bring all that together, those two sides. You know, there are fragrances that have properties that make you feel better. And what are those? So it's really about an exploration. I want to get back for a second to AI. How does AI influence your industry? A lot of companies have platforms where they're using AI. And I think AI is an interesting tool to speed up processes. Getting things started, but my opinion about AI for fragrance or anything is that you really have to keep an eye on it. You have to correct it. You have to enhance it. You can't just rely on it. Does one need to study chemistry in order to be an evaluator or to create sense? To be an evaluator or perfumer, you don't necessarily need to be a chemist. One of the founders of the whole learning platform of the way perfumers are trained, his name is Jean-Carl. His premise is really based on the fact that it's good to understand the chemistry and, you know, the sciences, but you can't let the chemistry and the science... Rural. ...hurt you from your creative inspirations. If you really rely only on the science, you kind of damper the creative part of you. When you launch a product internationally, and I know you did, what are the major issues or hurdles that you run into? If you're launching a global scent, so for example, all-factive taste in different countries is different. For example, we have our baby products, our powdery, Johnson & Johnson baby powder, and baby products in Europe are orange flower. Yeah, and in cleaning products in South America are lavender and cleaning products here are citrus. So you really have to take it all into consideration. It's not... sometimes it's challenging to launch a global product, especially with regulatory as well. In Europe, they divulge a lot more. There is what's called fragrance allergens, and those allergens need to be listed in Europe on the package. In the US, that's not required, but if you're launching a product that's global, you're going to want to mention all of those. And that list of allergens has grown from 26 to many, many, many more. Oh, wow. It's becoming more and more transparent. Michelle Pfeiffer, who launched a line that is really based on transparency, and she only works with the smaller palette that is most studied and is able to then list... you know, her goal is to launch transparent fragrances. What's the biggest misconception about the fragrance industry? That synthetics are bad. Everyone thinks, oh, naturals are good and synthetics are bad. So in my opinion, that's not the case. Everything that is an allergen, it comes from a natural versus a synthetic. Synthetics can actually be safer, but you have to have safe synthetics. Like you're not going to put formaldehyde or some sort of toxic chemical into your product, but it's important to have naturals and they're beautiful and they give quality and prestige and richness to a fragrance. But the synthetics really are there to support and showcase those naturals and enhance them in a way that is more sustainable, not taking from nature, but even using modern extraction and innovation, biotechnology and things like that. Green methods. I read somewhere that pheromones are great in scent because they can attract the opposite sex. Have you been using it ever? Pheromones are an interesting topic. A little misleading because really what they are is chemical signals between insect species for survival and reproduction. But in humans it's studied, but it's not really a fact. It's really more of a marketing story. What is the biggest challenge of being a fragrance evaluator? First, I think it's harder and harder to find your foot in the door, which is why the school is so important. But I would say while you're working on the job, I think really putting yourself in the shoes of the consumer as opposed to getting caught up in your own personal taste is probably, for some, you know, the biggest challenge because that's like a key doctrine, I would say, of being an evaluator. Like what, for example, you would like a certain smell that you know commercially is not viable? Yeah, like it was funny. This is not to do with fragrance, but when I was at Avon, we would launch, you know, Holiday. And Valentine's Day, I wanted to graduate from red to like a deep purple. That was like a big deal at the time. It was considered not okay, you know, it was too disruptive to not be red, things like that. How to break tradition. Which is the most successful perfume in your opinion? Oh, there's so many. There's fragrances like, you know, Dior Sauvage or Chanel number five or Dolce & Gabbana Light Blue, Chanel Blue, that are constantly number one. The top 20 charts, they don't change very much. And they're also a lot of similarities between countries. They have a chart for each country or they have a global chart? Yes, yes, top selling fragrances for each country. If someone wants to break into the industry, what would be an entry level job? You could be an entry level evaluator like I was or working as a compounder for a perfumer. So he or she or they would make formulas and then you're in the lab and you mix it all together and compound it and bring it back to him or her. So a compounding, that's a good way to go or entry level marketing position or in research. What can they expect to earn in the first year? It's been a while since I've looked at, I don't know what people are paid now. Is the goal of people that getting into the industry is eventually to become a perfumer? I think a lot of people think they want to become a perfumer, but you need to be very young to become a perfumer and it's very competitive to become a successful perfumer is not easy. Is it years of studying? It's years of studying and experimenting, but there are many very, very successful, incredibly creative beings out there. Are perfumers the highest paid? Yeah, because the perfumer is an asset. So perfumer probably would make the most money. But again, I don't know salaries. And where do you see the industry going in the next five to 10 years? I think AI is going to be big. Transparency is going to be very important. Innovation and customization is going to be important. So I see it evolving and continuing to evolve in the ways that it's moving today. Do you love working in the fragrance industry? I've loved working in this industry. It's been really great to be working in a profession that I resonate with. It's creative. It's inspirational. It's sexy. It's fun. The people in it are great. And I realize now how gutsy it was looking someone up in the phone book and pursuing this career in the way that I did. It's not easy to take risks, but if one is inspired as I was, it's really important not to let fear stop you from going after you want. And the payback is just infinite. I really feel blessed. All right. And on that note, I wish you many more years of doing great work. And thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much, Mirov, it's been a pleasure. That's it for today. Thanks for listening. Hope you got inspired or just got some insight into the fragrance industry. Don't forget to follow us and we'll see you next week.
