1438 - How Your Attachment Style is Subconsciously Ruling Your Love Life w/ Thais Gibson

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We have lots of contests, tons of different channels with all kinds of content. But it is private and I only give links to either my guests if you call into the show. You get a link to my Discord or get my book or join my Patreon. You get it from all that. Last thing I want to tell you about is if you are looking to get into the lifestyle, the site I recommend to everybody is SDC.com. SDC.com is like the world's largest online adult dating site, but it's so much more than a dating site. It's more than a pickup place. You go on there. You're going to learn everything about the lifestyle. They have live events. They have educational stuff that you could learn on there. They also will tell you where all the gangbangs and swinger clubs and orgies and parties that are going on in your area and your neighborhood. Or if you're traveling, you can find out what's going on there too. That's what's great about SDC. It's like a one-stop shop for the lifestyle. 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Okay, she explains it all at the end, but she really goes deep into explaining the four different attachment types on this call. She talks about how she rewires people because just because you have a certain style, it does not mean that that is that you are going to stay that way forever. You're wired into your attachment style and you could be wired out and that's what she does at her school. But really what we talk about mostly is her just breaking it all down. It's so interesting. I could have talked to her for like another hour. You're going to find it interesting. Okay, you're going to be able to relate to the different types. You're going to be like, oh my God, that's me or oh my God, that's my partner. Oh my God, that's my best friend because the different types totally make sense. Like I said, this is one of my favorite topics. I knew a little bit about this before, but she taught me so much more and she's going to teach you so much more. So I'm going to get right to it and get right back on with Tai-E Skipson. Hi Tai-E Skipson, welcome to the Strictly Non-Mist Podcast. How are you today? Hi, Kathy, I'm great. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm excited to have you on. What you talk about is attachment theory. You have a school. It's called the Personal Development School. I love the whole attachment theory. I feel like when it comes to relationships and issues that people have like relationships, I think it's a great way to get to know each other and get to know each other. I think that's a great way to get to know each other. I think that's a great way to get to know each other. Personal attachment theory, I feel like when it comes to relationships and issues that people have, if you delve into that theory, the attachment theory, everything makes sense. It's the one thing that when I read those books, I was like, oh, my God, this explains all my issues and problems and explains so many different things about people. Don't you think? Obviously, you must think that because you got into this, right? Well, I am just a big believer that we obtained so much of our conditioning from childhood and that's exactly what's growing up in our relationships. and until we learn what our conditioned patterns are and how to change them, then we're just kind of on repeat. Like you'll see a lot of the time that we pick the same types of people, we end up in the same types of situations. And it's because our subconscious mind wants what's familiar. And your subconscious mind is kind of the warehouse of all that conditioning. So according to what attachment style you are, you're very likely to end up with certain types of people in certain types of situations. And it can feel so frustrating, because we're like, why? But usually it's your conscious mind evaluating why. Your conscious mind is responsible for like three to five percent of all of your beliefs and thoughts and decisions. And so we can logically say something like, oh, I want the more available person. I want to date somebody who's trustworthy and available. But if our subconscious comfort zone according to our conditioning. Yeah. It's really in your life. Exactly. And it can be so painful and people can feel so defeated in it. So just knowing that there are reasons as to why this happens, but also very simple ways to change our attachment style and change our wiring is a way out for people, a way to really break through those glass ceilings in their lives and relationships. Yeah. And I think that's what's key because I was surprised when I learned that you can actually change your attachment, because those stories, quote unquote, are really powerful. And you see them in your own self and other people. We all have that friend that's dating chronically and is so desperate for a relationship. But you know they're never attracting the right person. And on some level, you do have to take accountability for that and say like, hey, something else must be going on here. And that's that subconscious thing that you're talking about, right? Like they're logically consciously saying, I want a relationship. But somewhere, and I was a total commitment for my whole life. And I was anxious, avoidant. Like I love all that shit. You know, that dance that happened. I want you to explain it all because it's so interesting. The different attachment styles, right? That people could be or the types. Exactly. So we can get into the four types. But to your point is that for what happens for each individual is that people are attracted to what's most familiar. Because the subconscious mind runs the show and we equate familiarity to safety. So when somebody is like, oh, I want the emotionally available person, but then they end up choosing somebody who's not, it's because they're not emotionally available to themselves. So what feels most familiar is the way we treat ourselves. And so they end up in dynamics where they're not treating, they're abandoning themselves to people, please others. And then they're attracted to people who will mirror that back to them. So we always choose people who mirror back to us the way that we treat ourselves, which I find to be super interesting. Because our partners gives us a lot of insight into ourselves. But that's a separate conversation. So the four attachment styles, everybody has one. And the first one is the securely attached person. Most people who are securely attached, they grow up with a lot of approach oriented behavior and childhood. And what that means is that they have parents who are very attuned to them and who are very present. And when they see that their child is stressed, they essentially make this bid toward connecting with their child and trying to resolve their stress. And they make this bid to go closer to the child, to approach them, to be like, what's wrong? And they try to suit them. And what that teaches a child is that your needs are very worthy of being seen and heard, that you can rely on people, that you can trust people, that your emotions are safe to express. And although our only conditioning does not just come from childhood, we could have our attachment style change when conditioning happens throughout our lives, the most fundamental aspects of it do. And so what ends up taking place is you have a child who's like, oh, I can trust people, I can rely on people, people are there for me, I'm loved when I'm strongly having a good day or a bad day, I'm loved in my good moments and my hard moments. And so what ends up happening is this person grows up with these really adaptive skills and relationships, and they learn how to communicate and be open. And so securely attached people, they report not just having the longest lasting relationships, but I find this to be really important. They also report being the most fulfilled in their relationships. Yeah, I can imagine. Why? Because they're happy or more secure. They don't get thrown by the littlest thing. Exactly. And they're really good because they know how to communicate well at getting their needs met from their partner. And I find that when people are really dissatisfied in their relationships, this very huge underlying thread is that people are not knowing how to communicate what they actually need to their partner, and they don't feel comfortable being vulnerable and saying those things. And so then their partner doesn't meet their needs, and because their subconscious mind is a needs meeting machine, we start to drift. We're like, well, where else can I get my needs met? What else is out there? Totally, yeah. Yeah, and so because we have two people, because often securely attached people end up with other securely attached people, because it mimics that subconscious comfort zone of how they treat themselves, what ends up happening is people are, they have good conversations, they're open, they're vulnerable, they are good at meeting each other's needs, and so that creates a really healthy relationship. But that only statistically makes up 50% of the population. Oh, that's more than I thought. That's exactly what I think every time I hear that, to be honest. That's like the most in-depth sort of research around it, but geez, when I get people, we have a lot of people go through our attachment assessment, and obviously it's self-reporting, but we see very different numbers, but obviously self-reporting is not necessarily the most reliable all the time, but I'm always shocked. I'm like, I do not work with a subset of people who are the 50% secure, so I've always talked about how high that number is, and sort of curious about it. But anyways, then we have three insecurely attached styles, and they kind of exist along a continuum in a way. And at one end of the continuum is the anxiously attached individual. So the anxious attachment style, they grow up with a lot of inconsistency. So this can be that they have parents who are very, one parent is very warm, and the other parents are whole, and so by juxtaposition, a child feels really connected to one parent, and then when they're with a colder, or more withdrawn parent, it sort of feels like this abandonment of that connection and attunement and love, then that can create the sense of perceived abandonment, but also it can be things like having very loving parents, but they're always working and traveling, and they're always out of the house, and you're with a babysitter or grandparents. And so either way, we often have this theme of perceived abandonment, or of course, real abandonment. So divorced home, you don't see one of your parents as much, a parent passes away, God forbid, and these types of dynamics cause a child to deeply fear that love will be taken away. So they end up growing up in this environment going, okay, I feel like love is here, and then it's gone, and so they're always bracing for love to be gone. So as adults, they have these huge fears and triggers where they're afraid of being abandoned, they're afraid of being unloved, not good enough, rejected, disliked, and they adapt to this by becoming extremely people pleasing. So anxious attached adults are constantly trying to maintain proximity, and they basically do backflips and car wheels to win people over. They're like, I will people please into oblivion. They really struggle with boundaries. They often burn themselves out in relationships, and because they're so avoidant to themselves, the more people pleasing we are as individuals, the more avoidant we are to ourselves, then they end up being really attracted to very avoiding people. So they end up saying consciously, okay, I want the emotionally available person, but subconsciously their butterflies, their spark, their chemistry is almost always pointing them in the direction of people who are gonna treat them the way they treat themselves, which is the people most likely to abandon them. So they usually try so hard in relationships to prove themselves to be good enough to do the most, and then often by clinging so tight, it's like sand slipping through someone's fingers. They feel like they often lose people and push people away by accident, and they usually have a series of relationships that are kind of disappointed or let down because they attach really quickly, they try really hard to stay close, but they sometimes violate somebody else's boundaries, but always trying to be together and always needing to be with this person, and then they end up sort of getting cast aside because people feel overwhelmed, and their worst fears become sort of their self-fulfilling prophecies. And don't they attract avoidance like almost subconsciously in the way that you were talking about before because that person is going to tell them that exact story that you should be anxious. Like I will run when you get close. Isn't that like the sick dance that happens and the pull and all that stuff that's going down? Exactly, you nailed it. It's just that they get into these dynamics where consciously they say they want one thing, but subconsciously it's what their comfort zone is. Yeah. And that's to remain anxious. It keeps you anxious, because you get the one person that's not interested in that, and they're running for the littlest thing. That's the avoidant. I'm obsessed with those people. I've been attracted to those people. Exactly. Your sex drive felt off lately, or have you ever had a time where your sex drive just wasn't where it normally is? I feel like that's like super common with both men and women. And that's why you need to check out Drive Boost by VB Health. Drive Boost enhances libido and sex drive naturally. It is doctor formulated with four scientifically backed ingredients for sex drive. And one of those ingredients, Makka worked super fast. Some people see results in just one to two days with most people seeing results in just one to two weeks of daily use. 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Like there are all these amazing things on paper that everybody should want in a partner. But because their subconscious comfort zone and what's most familiar to them, and that's what feels most safe and inviting, is this chasing and pining and yearning. And it's what they know and what their nervous system is so accustomed to. They choose partners who are gonna keep making them feel like that, and then it leads to disappointing relationships. And so many anxiously attached people, especially before they know their attachment style, are like, geez, I have all these things going for me on paper. I try so hard, I love so much. And why do I keep getting let down and disappointed? Why do I keep having people who leave me? And it just, it really wears on their self-esteem and it's confusing. But a lot of it is because of that subconscious comfort zone. And the good news is that, and we can talk about this in a little bit, I'm sure, but you can change these things. Like these are not, you're not stuck, you're not born with an attachment style that's conditioned into you, and you can rewire your subconscious mind by the same types of patterns that wire you in the first place. So these are very soluble problems and we can get into how to change some of that too. Perfect. Yeah. Now the avoid it. I don't know the fourth one. I'm excited for the fourth one, but you're gonna do the, oh wait, by the way, do you know the percentage of like what makes up the anxious attachment people? Like it was 50% secure. Do you know the percentage of the anxious? So we're roughly sitting at about 20 to 22 1 1⁄2%. Okay. So, and you're seeing a similar split on the dismissive avoidance side. And then we have the last one, which is the most rare, which makes up for the very rest of it, called the disorganized or fearful avoidant. Okay, we'll get to that one. We'll talk about that one too. So on the very opposite end to your question was the dismissive avoidant. And dismissive avoidance grew up with this overarching theme of childhood, emotional neglect. And a lot of people hear that and they think it's like parents are never home and children are alone until 11 PM. And like that can happen. But a lot of times it's childhood, emotional neglect that's much more covert. So we'll usually see, you know, children growing up in a health school where there's a lot of stability and structure like parents aren't fighting, children are at school on time, foods on the table every evening. A lot of times there's routine and comfort and a sense of stability in that. But parents are completely uninvolved emotional. Interesting. Yeah, so you'll have a lot of times where, you know, children grow up and they'll have parents who if they do express emotion or they are stressed, either the parent is simply not attuned so they don't even notice or they get actively dismissed, deflected or denied or even shamed. So let's say a child grows up and they're a little bit stressed, either a parent just doesn't even recognize the child's stress and kind of ignores them or the parent might actively be like, oh, you have to figure it out yourself. Don't be a crybaby, figure it out. And they'll distance themselves when the child expresses emotion. And so a child who's literally wired for attunement, we are deeply biologically wired for attunement. When a child doesn't get that, they internalize that as, oh, there must be something defective or broken within me that I cannot get this attunement. And this part of me that yearns for this type of connection must be flawed fundamentally and shameful because every time they try to make bids for connection and it's rejected, they feel shame. And so what ends up happening is the way that they adapt to this is they essentially adapt to this by going, okay, this part of me is wrong and bad. I cannot show this part of me. I have to push it way down and essentially deny this aspect of myself. And as an adult, this means that they are not emotionally available because they have worked very hard to repress their emotional self. And what's really interesting about this is that dismissive avoidance, because they were usually breadcrumbs when it came to real connection and emotional availability for them as children, that's how they love as adults. They only know how to breadcrumb. Love equaled breadcrumbing for them growing up. And so that's what they are available for. And that's actually their subconscious conditioning as to what they think love is. And so now we have these individuals who believe that if they're in an invested, committed relationship, well, all of their conditioning about that is, well, when I felt vulnerable in an invested relationship as a child with my parents, I felt trapped. I couldn't get my needs met. And I felt helpless and powerless and I felt shamed or defective and I felt weak if I expressed emotion. And any kind of conflict, I didn't even know what I was feeling, any kind of conflict made me feel unsafe. And so as an adult, this is what happens. They emotionally shut down. If there's a conflict, they feel very emotionally unsafe in conflict. They just retreat and pull away. Kind of like a turtle going in their shell. And they also deeply have these fears that if they do express emotion or do try to make bids for connection or they are vulnerable, even though consciously they may logically understand that that's a good, healthy thing in relationship, subconsciously all of their conditioning is like, no, do not show yourself, do not get seen, do not open up. And so they usually start off in relationships where the first three, four months before they actually attach to somebody, they're quite good in relationships. They're open, they seem quite available. But then as soon as each person actually develops feelings and really attaches to somebody, that's when all of our attachment stuff comes up. And so then you'll see these individuals who like, four months in, they start to retreat, run away, they cut and run, they end up in dynamics where they're really trying to, it's sort of like the rug gets pulled out from underneath the other person they're dating because they're one way for the first few months. Now everything kind of turns on the dime and they shut down, they retreat, they avoid, they may communicate less, text a lot less, they're a lot less open, they struggle with vulnerability. And a lot of people think that this is intentional and it's like they're trying to punish you with their silence, narcissists do that for sure, but avoidance, they just really struggle. It's not that they're trying to intentionally, premeditatedly hurt somebody, it's just that they start panicking and retreating and that's all they have is strong urge to retreat and hide and consciously they know that they shouldn't be doing it or they know better, but subconsciously that's their conditioning and the subconscious mind runs the show. Yeah, always. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's weird, I once, I remember hearing, and I guess I had it wrong, that sometimes avoidance were like, it was like kind of like the opposite, that they were almost like emotionally, they could have been emotionally like smothered by somebody and that's why it like, you know, a family member or a mother or a father that almost got too close, it would like with a bad emotional boundaries, like have you ever heard that or is that completely not true? And that can make someone avoid in as well. It's an excellent question. So exactly to your point, when you look at that, so you're talking about enmeshment, so sometimes we'll have this avoidance who grew up in enmeshed households, but what's really interesting is it dates a rate back to emotional neglect because when the parent is enmeshing with the child, it's not like they're enmeshing with the child, yeah, if they're enmeshing with the child to soothe the child, it's not like they're like, oh, come here, let me soothe you. Exactly, it's to soothe themselves, which is extreme emotional neglect for the child because the child is made responsible for their parent's emotions and they're taking them on, but there's no attunement coming back from that parent to the child. And so the child is just growing up in this conditioning of like their own emotions, their own domain, their own boundaries, their own feelings are not being attuned to. And in fact, in those cases where enmeshment is a factor, which it can be for sure, but it's still enmeshment between parent and child is still emotional neglect for the child at its core. And then a child's just like, what the heck? Like there's no room for my feelings, there's no room for my boundaries or my needs. And so that's how they grow up viewing relationships. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, it's a great question though. And then you see these adults who are scared to enter into committed partnerships for those very reasons. Yeah, and the avoidant is also uncomfortable with the other person feeling feelings, right? It's not just about themselves, right? Cause a lot of times the dances between the anxious and the avoidant, right? And when the anxious starts to get close to the avoidant, the avoidant's not comfortable with that. They're not even uncomfortable with the other person showing the emotions, correct? Exactly. And a lot of it is that they just don't know what to do. They kind of go into a freeze mode. So a lot of dismissable avoidance, if they grew up and they have to sort of stunt, it's almost like they're in arrested development when it comes to their own emotions. If they had to stunt their emotional growth, you basically have somebody who's got the EQ when it comes to emotional expression and empathy and knowing what to say of somebody who's a little bit younger, right? A lot of their development is kind of arrested there. So they often go into a freeze mode, sort of like a dorsal vagal shutdown mode in their nervous system, where when somebody's expressing emotion, they often get in their heads and they're like, and I've heard this from thousands of avoidants, they'll say things like, oh, what if I say the wrong thing? Or this is up to them to fix. I shouldn't enable them by trying to do it for them. I'm not helping them by doing that. Or why are they making this my responsibility when it's not? And they don't know how to appropriately respond. And so they end up just shutting down because their number one nervous system response when they feel out of their comfort zone or afraid is to just shut down. And so then we end up having somebody who as an adult, even though they can care about somebody and they can want to be there, they end up in a dynamic where they just don't know how. And so they shut down, they retreat, they hide. And then somebody has left thinking like, what the heck, I'm expressing emotion and they're hoping for empathy or attunement or care. But because that was never modeled to the avoidant themselves, it's almost like an unknown unknown. Like they don't even know that there is something that they should be doing differently. They just panic and go into their coping mechanisms. And so it makes them, it's very interesting because with true avoidants, I've had like many, many conversations and they actually are quite empathetic people. They'll usually be like, I don't want this person that I care about to feel this way. I wish that things were easier for them. Like they have that, but there's this deep belief that like I can't do anything about what they're feeling. I can't, there's nothing I can do. And so they have this sort of war within themselves of caring, but then not knowing how to express, not knowing how to cope with it and just shutting down. And then somebody on the receiving end, it's extremely painful because they're sitting there going, you know, expecting this sort of human touch to the relationship where if they're going through something hard, they're hoping somebody will reach out or check in. And instead, you'll often hear avoidants say, oh, they're going through a hard time. I just want to respect their privacy because we always give love as we would need love and dismiss some avoidants when they go through a hard time. Exactly. They're like, oh, give me space. So they give people space when they don't need it and they're looking for something else or they shut down when they don't know what to do. And so somebody's left a lot of times on the receiving end feeling confused and kind of hurt by the responses that they're getting from their avoidant partner. Yeah, that's interesting. And you know, you used the word narcissist before and it really kills me sometimes because I just feel like people use that word so much more than it should be used, right? Like they're just always lazing people narcissist. It's like, it's crazy. You know, and I would feel like a lot of people probably might meet an avoidant and think all that person's a narcissist, but they could be an avoidant, right? They sound very similar, but it's not, right? Like just because this person seems like they don't have empathy, it's not necessarily true. Like you said, a true avoidant really, I mean, a true narcissist really is that person, but these people might seem like they are, but they're not narcissists. Exactly. So I love that you said that so much because I couldn't agree more that people just throw around terms. And also narcissists and avoidants are extremely different creatures. So one of the first things, if you look at the DSM for a narcissist is narcissists, people with narcissistic personality disorders, so the actual term, not the throw around term, like you were saying, that people use all the time. One of the first things is true narcissists are extremely grandiose. They need constant admiration and attention. And if you try to give constant admiration and attention to a dismissive avoidant, they run away. They're like- Right, opposite of a narcissist. Exactly. And also you'll see that narcissists are obsessed with like being around people with power and status and their big social climbers. They only want to hang around with people that they see as being powerful and can help them climb the social ladder and dismissive avoidants like could not care less. They're like, I just want to hang around with people that make me feel comfortable and that I have a harmonious relationship with and that respect my freedom and my boundaries. Whereas narcissists are always trying to strategically invest in people. They're like, who can I build with and take from? And so you see these, so we see people who get these things very confused. And another really big point of confusion, and this is a little more nuanced, is that we see in the DSM that narcissists are entitled, right? And when we look at the narcissist type of entitlement, entitlement for a narcissist is like, they will go into a restaurant, let's say, and they'll sit there and they'll go, oh, it's busy, who cares? It's me, I should be served first. People should stop what they're doing. And they believe that they are just, like they should be given precedence over everybody else to, you know, if the time should be about them, people should be investing their time in them, their energy, their resources, because it's them, the narcissist. Whereas dismissive avoidants, people often think like, oh, they're so entitled. But dismissive avoidants are just not operating by covert contracts. And what a covert contract is, is it's one where like sort of buying, that, you know, I used to be a fearful avoidant attachment, so I'll the last one, we'll go into that one in a little bit, but one very common quality of both fearful avoidants and anxious is that they tend to think, okay, I'm scared to ask for my needs, because I don't know if I'm worthy of them. So I'm gonna do 10 things for you this week, because next week I have to ask you for a ride to the airport. And I'm gonna do all these nice things, so then I then feel safe and comfortable asking you for something back. Or that then maybe you'll wanna do something nice back for me, maybe you'll offer. Hey guys, has timing ever been an issue for you in the bad room? Well, listen, you're definitely not alone, because there really is an orgasm gap. It's a fact, girls take a little bit longer to have an orgasm than guys. And that's where promescence delay spray comes in. 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And I've got a special deal for my listeners right now. When you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third for free with promo code StrictlyAnon. That's promo code StrictlyAnon. Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And I thank Blue Chew for sponsoring the podcast. It's really dysfunctional because in doing that, there's a complete lack of just open communication about needs. And dismissive avoidance are like, they really believe in a relationship. If you need something from me, you'll just tell me literally. They do not operate by covert contracts. So what often happens for them in relationships is they date somebody, somebody usually whose anxious or fearful avoidant who's trying to people please them. The people pleaser gives all these things to them in a relationship, tries so hard, and then expects that the dismissive avoidant will notice that and then want to pour back into them because they're trying so hard first. And instead, dismissive avoidants are like, oh, what a generous person. This is so nice. And they don't think, oh, I should give back because you're trying so hard. They just think you give because you want to. You do things because you want to. I would only do things because I want to. So you must be the same. And so then we have people who are dismissive avoidant who are, they're good receivers. Right. And they're good at just receiving what comes to them. And they wait. They think, if you need something from me, you'll just tell me. And if you don't, you must not need anything at all. So we often see dismissive avoidants in kind of these imbalanced relationships where they attract people who are very generous and giving and people pleasing, but they're not giving back in the same way. And then people see that and they think, you're so entitled, you're such a narcissist. You take from me more than you give the reality is that if you tell a dismissive avoidant what you need in a healthy relationship, a dismissive avoidant, a lot of the time if you're like, hey, this is something I'm needing. And if you communicate in a kind, regulated way, they'll actually really show up and try. Yeah. They tend to be quite reflective with some space and they'll come and make an effort. Whereas the entitlement of a narcissist is they are like meeting people and they're trying to in a premeditated way, think of how they can take from people, thinking that they're owed. Whereas a dismissive avoidant is like, oh, if you give something to me, I'm not gonna say no, I'll appreciate it. But I'm not necessarily gonna bend over backwards to do all these things back without you communicating. So we have these kind of outputs that people misread where they think, oh, this person because they're receiving from me more and they're not giving as much back, they must be a narcissist. And it's like, well, there's actually these really stark differences there in how people are showing up. And narcissists are extremely manipulative and they really lack empathy and dismissive avoidance. They won't express emotionally their empathy very much but they very much express their empathy through actions. So when they go through, let's say they have a partner who's having a hard time, they're not good at saying, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you're having a hard time. I feel for you, I'm sorry you're going through this. Instead, they see somebody's having a hard time and they might bring them a coffee or bring them, cook them some food. They don't know how to emote to them properly but they feel for them and they try to cater to them and support them in different ways. That's so interesting. And that's why these kinds of things, it's so important to know all this stuff because then you might see your partner in a different way if you know where they're coming from. Cause like you say, we are always projecting onto others and them onto us. So sometimes we really misread what's going on all the time. That's like one of the biggest problems in relationships. 100% and one of the craziest things is that not only do we project like these ways that we think we need to give love but then because each attachment cell receives love in totally different ways, we often miss the mark. So one of the hardest things, especially in this anxious avoidant trap where it's like the anxious and the avoidant is that the anxious person, the way that they need love is through huge, their needs are more through, give me the big compliments. Tell me how much you love me. Tell me you think I'm the best partner. Tell me you want to be with me forever. Like that's, they like validation and reassurance and certainty. And I had a, when I was working in private practice years ago, I had a client once and she came in. It was like her second session with me and she came in on a Monday and she was so sweet. And she had said, okay, I had a fight with my avoidant partner on Sunday and I don't understand what happened. She's like, we got into an argument. He said he needed space for the rest of the day to process. It was a pretty bad argument. And he went back to his house and I went back to mine and I thought, you know what? This is so sad. I don't want him to feel upset. So I cooked him a nice meal and I wrote him a note and I surprised him. And he wasn't even happy to see me after. I did this really nice thing. Did you tape her and play back what she just said? No, but it was so sweet. Cause she was like in her innocence. She was trying to love. And she was trying to love as she would need to be loved. And so we have, and then we have these anxious individuals who try to pour into people cause they're so generous and they're people pleasing, but often it's almost kind of futile because they're pouring into somebody who needs love in a totally different way. And so it kind of falls on deaf ears. Like they're pouring in, but it's not getting received in the same way because oftentimes the person's like, hey, don't you hear? I said I needed space. Don't you hear? I said I needed a minute to process. And then the avoidant partner, despite this really kind of gesture from the anxious person is feeling totally unseen, totally misunderstood, totally not noticed and, and, and recognize and what their needs are. And the anxious person's like, I just said this hugely nice thing. Do you not even love me at all? Like you couldn't even receive from me when I tried so hard to do this thing for you. And so it's these very common themes. And I think a lot of, yeah. And a lot of people are like, well, what is the dismissive avoidant need in relationships? And do they just need space all the time? And the reality is that they actually have very strong needs in relationships that they're not usually consciously aware of, but they respond exceptionally well to feeling appreciated and respected. So those are huge needs for them. If it's appreciated, not in a grandiose way, not like, you're the best in the world. But like, hey, I noticed you're trying to be more consistent with communicating this week. Thank you. Or, hey, thanks for taking the trash out yesterday. Like I appreciate that you were here and stopped by and did that. You know, they want to hear like that their efforts are recognized. And they also respond extremely well to people who communicate in harmonious ways. They want harmony in their relationships to people who are comforting to them, supportive to them. And when they feel accepted, it's like crack for dismissive avoidant. It is like their thing. They love to feel accepted. And accepted usually means like just non-judged, not judgment. And it doesn't mean make everything they do OK. It means if you're going to communicate a need, do it in an accepting way. Hey, I noticed you're really showing up in this in XYZ way in our relationship. And for me, I also really value when ABC happens. Can we work towards that together? Right. So when you're communicating in this harmonious way and you're accepting and you're not judging of them, that makes them feel really safe and comfortable. And it's kind of the opposite of shame, like those big shame wounds they acquired in childhood. So it's like their medicine. Like they are so drawn into that because they want that sort of medicinal head of their unmet needs from childhood where they feel safe and supported and accepted and seen and acknowledged and appreciated. And when they get those things in relationship, they really light up and they really lean in. And it's actually a big part of what often allows them to start letting down their guard and becoming more secure with others. Oh, that's interesting. It's that kind of a thing of like accepting the other person and understanding them or whatever, which can actually change over time. And I'm sure we'll get to that at the end after. I really want to hear about the last one, which you said you used to be. What is the last one, Fearful Avoidant? The Fearful Avoidant, the little minority in there, the last like 5% to 10% of attachment styles. So this individual usually grows up with, and I actually wouldn't be surprised just based on like a couple little sum bites of what you said earlier. I might be reading into it, but yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this is maybe what you were. Yeah. But Fearful Avoidant to Grow with More Chaos in Childhood. So think walking on eggshells, waiting for the other shoe to drop, always having to be on high alert. And Fearful Avoidant, everything exists along a continuum, but at the extreme ends of this continuum, you see, you know, a parent who's an alcoholic or an active addiction or a parent with narcissistic personality disorder or extreme fighting in the home, children always put in the middle. Like these types of things where a child, if you really look like let's use the narcissist and alcoholic examples, one day mom comes home and she's had a couple drinks and she's in a good mood. And the child's like, oh my gosh, love is good, love is safe. I want to connect with mom. She's so sweet today. She's warm and fuzzy. Another day mom's had many drinks and she's angry drunk and she's mean and she's cruel. Or another day mom's had many, many drinks and she's passed out and the child comes home from school and they're like, is she dead? Is she alive? Like what happened? And so children, same thing with a narcissist, children get wired with very competing associations about love. Love is a really good thing sometimes and love is a really threatening thing other times. And this causes them, same thing with a narcissist, right? Like one day the narcissist love bombs, another day they devalue and are very discarding. And a child's like, well, which is it? And so while the anxious attachment style learns to connect and try to maintain proximity at all costs and people please into oblivion and the dismissive avoidance learns to concentrate space and distance to stay safe in relationships and in control, fearful avoidance, they go, well, I'm just gonna be hyper vigilant. I'm gonna notice every micro expression and body language and tone of voice change. And I'm gonna read between the lines on everything because that's how I learned to adapt to my environment. If mom was really nice some days and really scary other days. Well, geez, I gotta know by the way mom shuts the door when she comes home, which mom I'm getting. And so they notice everything. And the really interesting part is that becomes deep, deep in their programming. Like they, I joke that fearful avoidance are the human lie detectors. Like they just, they can't help it. It's a problem. I feel like I see through people. I once had a blog say to me because I used to think I was like psychic. And he was like, do you ever think like me, you just had like certain trauma and then you grow up to be this person that does see a lot more than the average person, right? But it does come from that. And that's when my boss said that I was like, oh my God, you're just fucking right. And it drives you crazy because sometimes you do know more than somebody else. And it's not a good thing if you ask me. And it's tricky if you're not like, you know, for me when I was fearful avoidant, one of the hardest things is you also, it also comes with a lot of court wounds. You've got a little more attachment trauma. So, so you have some of the anxious side wounds where you fear abandonment because sometimes love is really good and you don't want to lose that good version of mom or dad. And so sometimes there's this deep fear of abandonment and being unloved, but there's also this wound of being alone. Like it's always all on you to figure out and to do and kind of your left carrying the bag. And like there, there's sort of that dynamic. But then there's this huge belief system that fearful avoidants tend to develop, which is, A, I'm always going to be betrayed, always waiting for the other shoe to drop, right? Always on high alert. And then this deep feeling of unworthiness, like, oh, I have to earn love. I have to earn attention. I have to earn care because usually you grew up in an environment of some kind where it was unstable enough that you didn't really get love directed at you because there was too much chaos with your parents. And so instead love was earned. For example, if somebody had an alcoholic parent, love is earned by maybe taking care of mom when she's passed out and talking her into bed. And then she's sweet to you. Or if you had a narcissistic parent, love is earned by achieving and over delivering on things. Or if you grew up with parents who constantly fight like cats and dogs and put you in the middle, love is earned by checking on mom and then checking on dad and making sure they're all okay and trying to break up the fight as a child. And so there's these types of things where it's like you get love and attention when you overachieve, overdeliver, overperform. And so there's a loneliness to that, that this belief that love is earned and you have to behave a certain way to obtain it. And so you get this, you know, the anxious side where you feel anxious in relationships and you're afraid of abandonment, but then you get the kind of just pure, fearful, avoidant the fears of betrayal and unworthiness. And then the other wounds are a big fear of being trapped, helpless or powerless. So if you're fearful avoidant, feel confined. If they feel like somebody is trying to control them. Yeah, that's me. They're like, yeah, I'm gonna push you away so fast. I'm gonna cut and run. So if you're fearful avoidant as adults, they're hot and cold. They're the push-pull partner. They are, they usually notice they're anxious side more. A lot of FAs think that they're anxious at first. Yeah, that's what I thought. And I thought I would flip to one of my questions to you was like, you could flip, right? Anxious, avoidant. But now that you're explaining this whole other person that existed, I'm like, this all makes sense. Yeah. Because this person might think they're anxious and then might think they're avoidant, but they can't, this person can flip, but it's the fearful, but they are fearful avoidant. Exactly. And so it's like they fear losing you, but then, and I joke that fearful avoidants are kind of like, come get close to me. They really want depth and novelty and intensity. They're not surface people at all. They want to go deep into everything. But as soon as things feel too confronting, they're like, come get close, come get close, let's get really close. And then somebody gets close and they're like, get back. Oh my God, yes. And they're very hot and cold and they kind of flip flop. And it's because that's the deep wiring, right? Love has been a really beautiful thing. And you've seen the depths of it and the depths of hardship. And there's a lot of empathy and compassion that FAs really carry. But the flip side of it is that love is a threatening thing and you've had really painful experiences around it. And so the conditioning at a subconscious level that's really hosted there is like, I really want this thing and it's really good and it's also really bad at the same time. And so I just need to stay three steps ahead of everything and read between the lines and notice all the micro expressions and body language and tone of voice changes. And that's how I'm going to predict your behavior. And if I can predict your behavior, then maybe I can feel safe enough to open and to be vulnerable. So a lot of fearful avoidance have kind of up and downs in their relationships because they love hard, but they pull away hard and they're scared of love as much as they love love. And so they tend to get into dynamics with people where there's a lot of ups and downs. They often connect very well with anxious partners early, but interestingly, they often end up investing in kind of being the most drawn to the dismissive avoidance because dismissive avoidance are safe. And fearful avoidance usually didn't have a lot of safety. Dismissive avoidance are kind of calm and they're grounded and more reliable, but they still keep them guessing because fearful avoidance don't know how to love or feel love without some kind of chaos. And so, yeah, so those are the types of themes and patterns you'll see as adults and that their big needs and relationships are, they need depth, they want to feel wanted and prioritized and they want to feel this like spark and passion, like they're very passionate people. But then on the flip side, they also like absolutely need their freedom, their independence, their autonomy, they need novelty. And they're sort of, they have these kind of opposing type needs at face value, but they're not actually mutually exclusive, you can need depth and freedom, right? Those don't have to be opposites. And they also, even though they often don't choose partners from this place, the only way that they really get into relationships that work is they have to find people who they trust because if there's not a sense of like transparency and open communication and healthy relating that way, if a fearful avoidance starts getting trust wounded in a relationship, like they think somebody's lying or deceiving or being deceitful, they spiral very fast and they sabotage very quickly to go back into self-protection. So those are some of the typical themes you'd see in a fearful avoidance before they do the work. Right, and they're hyper-vigilant, so they're gonna notice that kind of stuff, maybe more so than the secure person, right? Because they're like looking for it. To the point where it's actually wild. So this morning, so I have done the work a long time ago and I've been with my actually married a dismissive avoidance and we did the work together and we've been together for 11 years and very happily married. Oh my God, love that. But the work, which is so interesting, is the hyper-vigilance won't go away, like you're just trained to notice everything, but the storytelling around it will. So the conclusions you jump to will. So this morning, for example, my husband and I worked together and we own our company together. And he does all the software development stuff. And this morning, I was laughing to myself about this. I'm like, geez, this never left me. This morning, I'm walking over to his office to bring him a coffee. And I made myself another coffee, I went to bring him one. And I hear the way his chair moves in his office. It's like sliding. And I trust my husband implicitly, like 10 out of 10 trust. And we worked on that early in the first couple of years of dating and did the work. But I trust him deeply. And I heard his chair move in a different way than his chair normally moves. And the office chair wheels drag on the floor. And I came in and I said, which has happened? And there's no part of me that's like, oh, I don't jump to the conclusions I would have jumped to before doing the work. Like, is he hiding something? What was that? There's a difference. But I laughed. I was like, hey, what happened? And he was like, oh, I know I should have been working. I wasn't working. I was doing this thing instead. And he was like looking at the- Oh, and he moved back real quick. He moved back really quickly. And I'm like, oh, I don't want you to feel like I'm going to be worrying about if you take a moment. And he's like, I know, that was silly that I did that. I don't know. And I was like, yeah, it's cool. If you need to go look at something, go look at something. And so it's just, but it's funny. I was laughing to myself that like, here I am, implicitly trusting this person all these years later, there's like, I just not even thinking about it, not trying to think of anything. I was deep in my head, but my brain just clocks this chair moving differently. And it's just there. But the difference is- Yo, isn't a skill at this point, right? I mean, it is something that you hone. You can't get rid of it. I mean, right? Because it is like some sort of skill that you would pick that up. I used to think I should work for the CIA, but I was like too old to apply. Because I was like, I know everything. You can too. The beauty of it is that when you don't, it wears on your nervous system to be like that when it's followed by a jumping to conclusions. Like when it's followed by, oh my gosh, was he talking to somebody that he, you know, if it went down that rabbit hole, it becomes painful. And also, and you know, just in all transparency, like my husband, I worked all that the first year of dating. Like I did jump to conclusions sometimes still. And I was working through that a little bit still in relationship with that. But we learned to talk openly. And then I had so many positive experiences about that. I learned him deeply in vice versa. And we built way beyond that. But it's very exhausting when a lot of those core wounds are there. So we jump to the conclusions of I'm being betrayed. Something bad is happening instead. I'm like, oh, I noticed a shift in the pattern. I'm going to ask him what that was all about. And I know it's nothing insidious or bad. It's going to be something light. And I want to want us to be comfortable. And so anyway, so if you don't know how to communicate when you notice those things, or if you jump to your core wounds conclusions, what's our I'm unloved, I'm going to be betrayed, I'm something bad is happening, then it becomes grating. And then you're dysregulated. And it makes relationships extremely difficult. But as you rewire those core wounds, so you don't jump to those painful conclusions. And as you learn to communicate and build trust in relationship, you can have just a superpower in the way you relate to people, which is to notice everything. And then if it feels meaningful to talk about, then you can talk about it. Or sometimes you'll notice it with a friend or a family member, and maybe you're like, ooh, we're in a public setting. I can tell something's off with them. But I'm going to give them space. It's not really a place to talk about. Exactly. And so you notice, and then you can kind of pick and choose. Because that's happening on autopilot when you're the fearful avoidant, right? I mean, because consciously, you might know that maybe it's probably nothing, but your subconscious is going to take you to those bad places. And that's just going to happen all the time. But you rewired yourself. Like, how do people rewire themselves? I mean, here you were 11 years ago, you met a dismissive avoidant, and you were fearful avoidant. But you guys both rewired yourselves, correct? Together? Is that happening? Do you do it with somebody else? Can you do it in therapy at your school? I mean, can it be done both different ways? Yes, 100%. So we go through 90-day programs, and it's really deeply subconscious. There's a little bit of daily exercises due because our subconscious gets rewired through repetition and emotion. But you can also see their best. And that can be helpful over time. But the most important thing is that you engage the subconscious mind. So there's five pillars of rewiring. And the first pillar is to rewire those core wounds. And I'll go through all the pillars. And the first pillar is to rewire those core wounds. So our core wounds, I like to think of as a bear in the woods. So if you go into the woods tomorrow and you see a bear and the bear chases you, and you run away and you're safe, thank goodness. But you have to go back into the woods the next day. Well, what does the mind do? The mind is like, the trees blow and the breeze. And you're like, the bear. The bear is coming. And so we are very wired to hang on to negative. We have a negativity bias. We hang on to negative things more than positive. We don't, after being chased by the bear, think of how pretty the flowers were when we were running. Interesting, yeah. We think of the bear's teeth and how scary it was. And we store threatening experiences. And then we're actually wired to project them back out onto our world so that we can protect ourselves from them. So that's great if you're survival, you're out in the woods and you're trying to survive. But it's not great when we have relational issues where you felt abandoned as a child or betrayed or trapped. And so now as an adult, you project that everybody will abandon, betray or trap you. And so we're not born with those wounds. They get imprinted through repetition and emotion over time. And we can change that wiring. So for the first pillar, the exercise, I usually get people to start with. It's a really easy one. It takes about 21 days. It's three steps. Step number one is you find the wound and it's opposite. So if I'll be betrayed, I'll have loyalty. If I'm going to be abandoned, I will be worthy of connection. If I'll be trapped, I'll have freedom. If I'm not good enough, I'm good enough. Or I'm worthy, worthy. So we find the poor wound and it's opposite. Step two is I do not believe in affirmations. And here's why. Affirmations are your conscious mind speaking to your conscious mind. That's it at work. I know that. Because your conscious mind speaks language. And if I say to you, okay, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant. Because your conscious mind hears do not. It recognizes language, but it's too late. Your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. So it flashed an image. And so nobody, nobody is hosting their core woes at a conscious level. Nobody's like, oh, let me wake up today and tell myself I'm not good enough 37 times and see how I feel. Like no one's choosing this. Nobody's like, oh, let me wake up today and project all the ways my partner could betray me and then see how that goes. So what happens is these are subconscious. So we have to speak in the language of the subconscious mind which is emotion and imagery. So step one, let's just use the example. I'm not good enough. Opposite, I am good enough. Step two, I can't just say I'm good enough, I'm good enough, I'm good enough because I just can't do anything. I have to say, I have to speak in emotions and images of how I'm good enough. The best way to leverage emotions and images is through recent memories. All memories or really old memories too. All memory is just a container of emotions and images. So if you think of like your favorite childhood memory and let's say you're playing at the beach with your family you might see the image of the red bucket that you're building a sand castle with. And you might see the images of the ocean and the waves. And we've all seen people when they recall old memories, they laugh or they smile or if it's a sad memory, they cry. And it's because memory gets stored subconsciously with the emotions attached. So now we know that we can speak to our subconscious mind through memory. And so now we're gonna come up with 10 memories of times that we actually felt good enough or had loyalty. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so step two is we come up with these 10 memories and we get 10 because there's a little bit of repetition and then we get the emotions and images in the memory. And then step three is neuroscience tells us that we need at least 21 days when we are in a suggestible state and I'll explain what that means of firing and wiring to create new neural pathways or networks that are strong enough that they're very likely to stick. So if we're just doing behavioral work it can take up to 63 days. But if we're doing, if we're in a suggestible state which means when your brain is producing more alpha and theta brain waves, which happens in the first hour that we wake up or the last hour before we go to sleep we're more suggestible. In other words, our subconscious mind is soaking up and sponging up information more then and it's sort of more permeable if that makes sense. Then what we do is we record ourselves saying these 10 memories of how we were good enough or how we were worthy of love or loyalty or how we were worthy of connection instead of abandonment. So we come up with the 10 memories to oppose the big fear or wound. And then we listen back. We record ourselves saying it out loud and then we listen back for 21 days in the first hour that we wake up or last hour before we go to bed. And it takes about two to five minutes a day. And the goal is that as you're listening back so let's say you're saying, okay, 10 times I felt good enough, maybe you start with, I felt good enough a week ago when I had a really hard conversation with my friend or when I showed up and set a boundary at work. And what we're doing is in the memory when we're listening back to ourselves saying this out loud in the recording we focus on feeling the feelings attached to that how we felt proud of having that hard conversation and where you feel that pride in your body. And we focus on the images of like seeing our friends face when we had that conversation, for example. So now we're using our conscious mind to know that there's a wound or speaking to our subconscious mind which is the host of the wound through repetition and emotion. And as we do this in a suggestible state which only takes like two to five minutes a day we're firing and wiring these new neural networks to subconscious level to now uproot and get rid of these wounds. And that's what's important. You have to get into the subconscious. And this stuff works because I've used subliminal beta theta waves that kind of shit. Cause I know like you can't get anything in consciously writing it down on paper every single day. It's not gonna work. This is what works, what you're talking about. Exactly. And we have to really feel the images and it has to be evidence-based. Like it has to be real things that happen to us. We can't say like, oh, it's possible that ABC could happen in my life. We have to be like, no, what was the truth? Because our mind really responds to like our lived experiences and we notice them and we feel about them. And especially if we do it through, like repeated through 21 days. One of the biggest problems out there is that people start learning about their attachment styles and we're like, oh, here, these are my patterns. I'm stuck this way. And it's like, no, no, no, no. These are just your conditioning. And you can rewire these things. This is not like a personality disorder. We're born that way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so it's really easy to do. And we get people surveys in our programs and we're like, okay, if you did this, you stuck to it for 21 days, you didn't miss a day, you focus on the images and emotions. What's your satisfaction score with this working? And people reported a 99.7% NPS score, satisfaction score with like this really getting rid of their core wounds. And as somebody who has like religiously done this, because I had all the core wounds I had many of them, it's absolutely life changing. Like your mind stops going into all these dramas and fears and projections of the betrayal or the abandonment or whatever else you're assuming. And instead there's like room. You get like a mental, emotional and real estate back to be like, oh, what do I wanna create for my life? And we don't jump to conclusions and vulnerability is not so scary and we can communicate in a more regulated way. So that's our first pillar. There's, oh, I can go through the other ones at a really high level, but just knowing that the whole way to change your attachment cells, not to intellectualize and just understand the patterns. That's a good first step, but then it's the rewiring that actually changes things for you. Yeah, I'm obsessed with all of this. I feel like I've been in a therapy session and I'm like, I always hate when the good therapy session is ending because you're just like, I want more, I could talk to you another hour. It's like, it's a major, but I do believe like, because I always feel like who's ever sitting across from you for better or for worse is like, a reflection of whoever you are at that time, right? So if like this happens and these people go through that change, then who they start to date and who they start to meet and who they start to be attracted from across the room changes as well, right? Because like you always talk to these people and they're like, oh, I didn't know they were commitment Fobek, you know, it's like, yeah, but why are you attracting or seeing the person from across the room that is exactly that same person all the time? There is that energy going on there. We smell the stuff from a mile away, but if you rewire your subconscious, then you start smelling a different person, right? 100%, I love that you said that. And it's actually really, this isn't one of the pillars of healing, but it's a great awareness tool. They get people to sit down and write their triggers, like the things that they keep ending up with in relationships, the trigger then. And like, let's say you're like, oh, it's the avoidant person, the unavailable person, the lying person or deceitful person. I'm like, okay, cool, where do you do that to yourself? Cause, and it's always on point for people like, oh, I lie to myself by saying, saying yes to things that are or know for me or I violate my own boundaries to please people or I'm unavailable to myself cause I like don't speak for my own emotions. Like people please and focus on everyone else. Like the things that you'll see that you end up investing in are always patterns within self-first. And it can be really meaningful to see that and then start doing the rewiring to change it. So the rewiring exists in the core wounds. It exists in us meeting our needs as a second pillar. So trauma are the things that happened to us that shouldn't have happened, like abuse or painful circumstances that imprint us with core wounds, but also it's the things that didn't happen that should have happened. So for example, if you grew up in a, that's a Gabramatzi quote, by the way. I must ask with him, he's amazing, right? Yeah, love him. And, you know, if you grew up in a childhood, for example, where you were supposed to get emotional connection, but you were neglected, right? That's its own trauma just in a more obscure form. And so what we do in our healing for pillar number two is we write down, we put a list on our page of mom and dad and we write down all the needs that we didn't get met that we yearned for. And we learn to give them to ourselves first because until we do that, we will keep over seeking them from others. And we won't know how to self source them. And then we're always running from person to person, like we're pulling into a gas station and our gas tank is fully empty and that gas station better be open. And so for example, if somebody grew up and they didn't get consistency or they didn't feel soothed consistently, they're gonna be like, oh, my partner should always soothe me. They should be the source of my soothing rather than I have to learn to soothe myself too sometimes and be present and attuned with my own emotions and work through my own stories. And so until we learn how to give our own needs to ourselves halfway, we're always gonna be running on empty and trying to source them from other people, which leads to us a lot of the time lowering our standards. We're like, I'll take anything because I'm dying for something. And so that's often what leads people to be putting up with breadcrumbs in relationships. If you're giving yourself your needs a two out of 10 and somebody's giving them two or three, you pine after the three out of 10 when we should be looking for a nine, right? And so a part of it is the second pillar is like we learn to meet our own needs. The third pillar is we learn to regulate our nervous systems. And the last two pillars are we learn to communicate in healthier ways, because a lot of insecure attachment styles got taught really painful patterns of communication. And we learned to set boundaries consistently. And boundaries are very much an authentic expression of ourselves. It's our yeses and our noes, it's our entire truth. And a lot of people are insecurely attached. You know, just misalvoidants set too strong of boundaries. They say no to everything. Anxiously attached individuals set almost no boundaries. And fearful avoidance are, they set no boundaries until they get really mad and feel taken advantage of. And then they set extreme boundaries. And then they feel guilty that they were harsh. And then they go back to setting no boundaries out of guilt again. And so each attachment style has these dysfunctional patterns in their boundaries too. And those are all things, all five of those pillars, whether it's the core wounds or the needs or the nervous system or the communication or boundaries, all five of these things can be rewired at a subconscious level. And is that, do they go one, two, three, four, five like intentionally in that order? Or could they be done at different times? Or do you do it in a specific order? So that by the time you're creating the boundaries, you've done the subconscious work. Like, is that intentional that you go one through five? If you could see my face, I'm just like sitting here smiling. Yeah. Yeah. You nailed it. You're all like, you're just so smart. But yes, exactly. So here's the actual playing out of it. A lot of people, and it drives me nuts. So I'll be like, oh, I'm just gonna regulate my nervous system. I'm trying to do like somatic processing. And it's like, okay, cool. You can bandaid yourself all day with only doing somatic work. But like you're getting dysregulated because you're projecting a core wound first. Right. So if somebody's constantly fearing abandonment because that's a huge wound and it's popping up for them all the time. And then they go, okay, let me do some somatic breathing and nervous system regulation work. But then three hours later, you get the fear of abandonment again. It's kind of a bandaid. So nervous system regulation is extremely important, but it's our third pillar on purpose. And same thing when we have deeply unmet needs. And then we're not getting them met. We feel sad, that gives us feedback. Whenever we have unmet needs, I always give people the analogy that if you took me and I love people and I love emotional connection and you threw me into a foreign country where I don't speak the language as anybody else at all. And in this theoretical world, I have no phone and no way of contacting people. I am going to feel sad. Like I am eventually gonna feel homesick and lonely because I'm gonna miss people and miss emotional connection. And that's a good thing. That's literally my emotional feedback system saying, hey, go do something, go adapt, go learn the language, go get a phone, go call home. And so when we have unmet needs, we should feel sad. That's actually feedback for us. But a lot of times what we do instead is we have unmet needs, we feel sad, and then we tell a story about it based on our own wounds. And we say, oh, nobody loves me. I'm gonna be alone forever. That's why this is happening. Or I'm betrayed by everybody who's not trying to talk to me here and so we make it mean something. And when we have unmet needs, it's emotional pain. When we tell a story about the unmet needs, like I'm lovable, or I'm gonna be alone forever, we have emotional suffering. It's a little more intense and excruciating. And so pillars one and two, we get people to rewire their core wounds first because when you're really triggered, let's say you have a disrespect core wound that came up and you're like, okay, what do I need? You're trying to figure out what you need in a situation. And let's say your boss asked you to work late and you think your boss is disrespecting you. You might think your need is to yell at your boss. When in reality, your need might be to just tell your boss, no, and pull at least that a boundary. So we have to do the wounds first because when we're triggered, we can't find our needs, which is the second pillar. When we have our core wounds up and unmet needs, our nervous systems always dysregulate it. So then just doing nervous system regulation as the third pillar, if we try to start there, it just becomes problematic. We're just always doing the nervous system work without getting to the roots of why we're dysregulated. So we do core wounds, then needs, then nervous system. And once we're sound within ourselves, we have less core wounds, we know our needs, we're more regulated, well now we have the power to communicate better because we're regulated and we know what we need. And we also can set boundaries better when we don't have core wounds around them. Because a lot of the reason we actually, for me and my own healing, for example, I like knew everything about boundaries. I read all the boundary books, I read all the published literature on boundaries. But in real time, I would struggle and it's because for me as a child, when I set boundaries or it said no, I would often get punished. So for me, boundaries equaled on safety. And until I rewired that core wound, then in real time I would be like, oh, this is when I should set a boundary, but I wouldn't do it because my subconscious would block me thinking I would be unsafe. So by doing the core wound work first, we get rid of those wounds that would show up and prevent us from setting the boundary. Like, oh, I'll be abandoned if I set a boundary or unsafe or unloved. When you do that core wound work first, the power to set boundaries much more effectively. So to your point, exactly all of those pillars are in that exact order for very specific reasons. Right, and you need to do them all. Did you create that yourself? Yes, I did. And is this so, please tell people where they could find you, where they could go deeper into this, where they could get help if they know that they wanna like rewire themselves. Is this what you do at the Personal Development School? And like, and explain like how it, all the different ways that people can work with you. Yeah, so I am at personaldevelopmentschool.com and I- I'll put a link in the description, by the way, sorry, go on. Thank you, thank you so much. Yeah, and I take people through 90-day programs. So I'm in there with people, we go through 90 days, it's sort of like a boot camp. And I give people daily subconscious rewiring activities. They take like two to three minutes a day. They're super simple and distilled down. And then we go through those five pillars. So we help people find exactly what their core wounds are and then do the rewiring, help them learn their deepest unmet needs from child to admit them themselves, get some good nervous system regulation activities that they can practice very simply each day. And then we go into, once we've got those three pillars really solved for at the beginning, then we go into the boundaries and communication. So people get a report, they can track their progress, all of that, and that is at personaldevelopmentschool.com. And they, this is a 90-day course, right? And are they working with you one-on-one or are these like, you know, everything's done online? Or is it Zoom calls? Yeah. Stuff you download, like how, what is the course like? Great question. Yeah, so people come in, they take their assessment first to find their attachments down. Like if they're like really in depth report and then they come into our program and we've actually built out our school now so that I'm in there three days a week with the students. So it's all on Zoom, it's all online. They have prerecorded courses that they watch with the activities. And then we actually go through them and because I've trained a bunch of colleagues and amazing people, we actually have two events per day where there's Q and A support, there's peer support groups. I lead three of them a week. And people can come to every single one every day if they want to, like you can come in. But we have two a day for people in different time zones and people who, you know, just different schedules. So people don't just get the prerecorded courses and the exercises to rewire, but they're in there with the support from either myself or my colleagues up to twice a day, six days a week, every day except for Sunday. And they can come in there and do that work and get all the support that they need. I love that. And are you typically seeing couples, singles? I'm assuming all of the above, right? Like, I mean... All of the above, yeah. And we have different course paths for people who are in couples. I love that. Where it's also helps them learn about like their partner and what their pain points will be in their relationships and how to work through them together. Versus if they're single and how to just heal their attachment style. So there's sort of a track for together and a track for single. But yeah, we see all of it and everybody's welcome. Yeah, I love that. I'm obsessed with you. I said I could have talked to you for another hour. Okay, this is like my favorite topic to discuss. I love this. You've, you diagnosed me on this call. I had myself wrong, okay? Now I know what I am. I love what you offer. I'm going to put a link to the personal development school in the description so people could find you if they want you. And thanks so much for coming on the show and talking about attachment theory. Like I said, I love everything you talked about. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me and you're such an amazing host and just really appreciated being here. And I felt really connected to you the whole time and just kind of blast. So thank you. Yeah, your hyper vigilance had me pegged. You know, you're not psychic, you're hyper vigilant. And there you go. Yeah, right. Thank you, Tais. This one will be up soon. Oh, send me anything you want me to include. Like send me the link and send me a promo pic if you have one, okay? Yeah, I will for sure. And the whole thing in touch, this was so fun. And I knew, Kathy, I knew from the first like two minutes when you said, oh, I'm the anxious one. But then you said, I forget what you said. You said something else. And I was like, oh, but you're avoiding it. Just like the chair moving. You had me fucking pegged. It's so funny. It's so funny. All right, you were the best. Thank you so much for calling us. Thank you. This was super fun. Bye, Tais. Thank you so much. This was so fun. Okay, bye, Kathy. Talk soon. Bye. Okay, I just want to tell you before you go that my book, it's called Strictly Anonymous Confession, Secret Sex Lives of Total Strangers, is now available not only in paperback and ebook, but you can pre-order the audiobook. It's still not going to be out till August 25th, but you can pre-order it. The book is basically 17 different stories taken from my show. I kind of picked one story from each category that I talk about on my show. Like there's a hot wife story. There's a cook queen story. There's a cook story. There's a gang-being girl story. Like I said, 17 stories. And they're all told in the third person and they're all true. I took the interview and rewrote it in the third person. And I wouldn't really call it like a total erotica book, think like penthouse letters. It's more direct. It's not so over the top like erotica. I don't really like that kind of vibe, right? But these are true stories. 17 of them, they're really short. Chapters, easy read. You could read one or two and then skip around. You could read the whole book. It's available in e-back format, paperback format. And finally, the audio book is available coming out August 25th, but you could pre-order it now. And if you buy my book in any format or pre-order it, I will throw in a complimentary link to my Discord. My Discord does not disappoint, okay? There's no way you'd get into my Discord any other way than getting the link from me, okay? I give it to people who buy my book. There's tons of people in there. Everybody shares content with each other. And that's what you get to do there. You could post your own pictures and videos. There's tons of channels. We have lots of contests where you could win a lot of money. It's a super fun place to be. It's a total strictly anonymous community and you will love it. I will be giving anyone who buys my book access to my Discord. It's private, like I said. All you gotta do is email me a screenshot of your purchase whether you did the audio book, the e-book, or the paperback, send it to me at strictlyanonymouspodcast at gmail.com. That's strictlyanonymouspodcastatgmail.com and I will send you the link to Discord. So anyway, thanks so much for tuning in.