Julia Gets Wise with Jane Curtin

Okay, let's say you buy some apples at the store. You're only going to have a rough idea of where or how they're grown. Maybe you throw the cores in a trash can. You're not thinking about where they're going or you try not to. All in all, our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. One way I try to reconnect is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never smells. But this part is just as important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient-rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens. If I wanted backyard chickens, and I don't. And well, I don't know. Maybe I do now. Maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try mills, risk-free trial, and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dryfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser than me. To celebrate your out of this world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser than me, mere traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to Wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. OK, here's the show. On October 11, 1975, I was 14. I was worried about boys, my weight, and my face, and my awful hair, and my stupid name. I was embarrassed by my neighborhood, by my sisters, by all of my parents. Nobody understood me, and I felt this more intensely than anybody else in the whole world. What I'm saying is, I was a teenager. October 11, 1975 was a Saturday, and at 11.30 that night I turned on the TV and guess what came on. The messy chaotic and perfectly perfect debut of Saturday Night Live. John Belushi, Jane Curtin, Dan Acroix, Gilder Radner, Lorraine Newman, Garrett Morris, and Chevy Chase. How do I describe the effect the show had on me? Like a curtain lifting, like a bomb going off? Yeah, but it was more. I had found my people. It might seem obvious in retrospect knowing what I've pursued in my career since then, including being on that very show a few years later, but I am telling you this, I knew it that night. It was just like bang, a revelation. The first sketch was Belushi and Michael O'Donohue, and at the end of it Chevy came out in the headset saying, live from New York, it's Saturday Night, and then Billy Preston saying, nothing from nothing leaves nothing, which is the most sublime song ever. And then later it was Janice Ian. My God. Janice Ian, she sang straight through the TV to me and only me. I learned the truth at 17 that love was meant for beauty queens and high school girls with clear skinned smiles who married young and then retired. Oh, please, give me a break. The best teenage angst song ever. And I honestly, I was the angstiest longing, most longing teen. And that song and Jane Curtin and Gilder Radner and Lorraine Newman, funny women, I yearned to be with him. The whole thing was like a life changing earthquake. Actually, it didn't change my life. I don't think that art is like that. Art doesn't change your life. When it's good, it reflects your life. It shines a light on your life that is so bright that you go out and you change it yourself, not to get too pretentious or anything, but whatever is my show. And Shakespeare says it best. He says this. The purpose of playing, of acting, of art, he says, is to hold as toward the mirror up to nature. Our good and our bad art compels us to see it all. We could use a little of that kind of art right now, couldn't we? Play songs, art and TV that doesn't preach at us, doesn't shout a point of view or set of instructions, but holds up the mirror so that we can see clearly who we are, where we are going, who we are hurting, what we are destroying, what we are becoming, and then chart our own course of change. That's what happened when I was 14 and I watched the debut of Saturn in Night Live. It held up a giant mirror for me and I could see myself in that world. I could see the possibilities ahead. I couldn't see the challenges at all and my journey was certainly not a straight line, but it worked out pretty good. And that's why I couldn't possibly be happier that the first guest of the new season of Why's Are Than Me is Jane Curtain. I'm Julia Louis-Dryfus and this is Why's Are Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are Why's Are Than Me. Saturday Night Live was the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. Every original cast member deserves our everlasting comedy gratitude and on today's show, I intend to properly thank one of those great originals, the legendary, unimpeachably hilariously singular, Jane Curtain. To me, Jane was the rock solid center of that show, The Glue. Sure, she could be just as wild as anybody in the cast. She was a conehead after all, but she could also kill as a straight woman, which is much harder than it looks. And don't forget, she had the chops to take over the weekend update desk after Chevy Chase left and make it her own. After she left the show, Jane went on to sitcom St. Hood, first on Kate Nally, where she won two Emmys, and then on third rock from the sun, and she held both of those great shows together too. She starred on Broadway and in huge movies, and she's still cruising having just pulled off a scene-stealing turn on the residents on Netflix. Jane's career is a kind of masterclass in longevity, in wit, and refusing to play by anyone else's rules. While others chased chaos, she perfected timing, intelligence, and precision. And at the same time, she's always a little subversive, you know, a little sneaky, a little knowing. She can take comedic and dramatic material alike and just kill. And you never see her sweat. Behind the scenes of that success, her late husband of 50 years, Patrick Lynch, her anchor, and a great dad who kept the home steady so she could work. Jane has served as a U.S. committee national ambassador for UNICEF. She's a mother, a wife, a grandma. She's so much wiser than me. I'm very thrilled to say hi, and thank you to Jane Curtin. Hi, and thank you, Jane Curtin. Thanks so much, Julia. I enjoyed every minute of it. Thanks, I'm going to feed my dog now. Bye-bye. Bye. Wow. Bye. It was great to have you on the program. Jane, Jane. Okay, I'm going to start with the questions we always ask at the top of these conversations. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Absolutely. I'm 78. I grew up in I-79. I don't know what you're referring to. 47, 1947. I think 78, 79. When's your birthday? September 6th. Yeah. So you are 78. 78. Okay. How old do you feel? Probably 48. Uh-huh. Not quite 50. But getting there. Yeah. I feel really good. What is it about 40s that makes you feel like that? I'm so curious. Because I think I know what you mean, but 40s, you're still, you don't have the onus of the age, you know? Yeah. 40s is nothing. Right. 50 is like, oh my god. Right. I'm 50. But you don't have that heaviness when you're in your 40s. So you go on with your life without thinking that what was that? What was that? You know, my hands don't move. It's, you don't think about those things because you just keep doing. Yeah. Right. But when you're 50, you start thinking, oh, shit. Now everything's going to fall apart. It doesn't. But you think it's going to because it could. It could. But chances are it won't. So I think when you're in your 40s, do you agree with this that you sort of feel there's a kind of immortality that's kind of a holdover from your youth that you still hang onto in your 40s to a certain extent? You know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean, but it is not a conscious immortality. It is. Yes. Because you have been doing so much consistently for so long that you can't imagine that that's going to end. I know. Isn't that funny? Because the more you do or the more time you have the more you do, I find, you know, it's like having a big purse. You just keep filling it. So it is a worry. It's a worry. We're used to it. We're used to that kind of thing that you, your days are full and you keep moving ahead and think about the future. Uh-huh. So what's the best part about being your age, this age of 78 or 79 or whatever the fuck it is? You just don't give a shit. You just don't care. You really don't. No. You can't. Mm-hmm. You can't. Right now life is really too short, so you can't. But like what's an example of something you just really don't give a shit about that maybe 30 years ago you did give a shit about if you can think of an example? I career probably. I think, you know, I like to work. Yeah. And if something happens, it's great. Yeah. But I'm not going to worry about it. Mm-hmm. I would just, you know, I'd like to keep working so that I can get health care. That would be lovely. But I was concerned about the right things to do, even though I didn't really care what the right things to do, where I wanted to do the things that were right for me at that time. But I just don't think about any of that stuff anymore, about where you fit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You feel more settled? Well, yeah, you have to. Because you are. Yeah. You're like that old glass. Everything is sort of settles around your feet. Old glass? What does that mean? I don't get it. Oh, so you didn't grow up in New England. These old houses built in the 1600s have glass panes. And glass over time just goes gravity, pulls it down and down and down. Oh, that way, the old glass. The way the old glass and everything ends up down at the bottom. So you have to be settled at this age. Okay, but that is incredible. That's such an incredible metaphor because, by the way, don't we love the look of that old glass? Yeah. And great New England tradition to see the old glass. Okay. So we met at the 50th anniversary of SNL. And I had such strong feelings that night. And I'm going to reiterate to you because I don't believe we'd ever met before. I don't think so, yeah. And I was very moved to meet you because I feel indebted to you for your career and your sort of representation and your bravery on that show was a huge part of my evolution. And when the show first premiered in 1975, I was there as its audience at home in Washington, DC watching it. And I felt seen. And I was telling my husband Brad, I watched it. I've been sort of doing a bit of a deep dive. And Janice Ian was on that show. Right. And I was 13 or 14 years old and that song and these people, IEU and the rest of the cast sort of being irreverent in a way that nobody else was being on television right then. I felt like, wow, this is my life. These are my people. I've got to get to these people. And you in particular, you were and are someone that I admired from afar, afar and still do. So I just wanted to say thank you to you for that because it opened up a world of possibilities to me in my mind. How fortunate for you that you could find your tribe at the age of 13. Yeah. How fortunate. I know. And it is amazing to me. Well, yes, it was great luck that that show came on then. You know? It really is. It really is when you think about it. And I think lots of people have that experience with the arts in one way or another. It speaks to the power of art and performance and connection. And connection. That's exactly right. Yeah. That is exactly right. You know, I was on the ship for three years, SNL. Yeah. And of course, you were on it for five years. And we both had completely different times with different leadership because Lauren wasn't there when I was on. And that was in the gene era. No, I was in the Dick Ever saw air. Oh, my God. Okay. Yeah. But the schedule, it was the same dog eat dog schedule. It was sort of drug fueled of schedule. And I want to know, how did you, what was your tonic? How did you get through those five years, sayingly, because I think you did? I had just gotten married in May the year before or that year. And I joined the show and I wanted to participate and be a part of it. But it was all too late for me. And I know, I know I'm going to go home. I have to walk my dog. You know, I'm going to make dinner. I had a life and I find that a lot of the preparation that they transferred everything to nighttime was because people didn't have a place to go. Yeah. They didn't have an anchor. They didn't have any support outside of that building. And it just, it made me sad because they were all basically looking for what I had so that they could have that support and do their job at the same time. But did you find, you found a real camaraderie, I think, with Gilda and Lorraine? Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, my God. Yes. Very tight and very protective of each other and supportive of each other. You spoke about how Gilda would come and hang out at your house and watch you be married. Yeah. Can you talk about your dynamic with her? And I love the fact that you said, yeah, just come over and watch us be married. And that you were so open to that. That's so wonderful. And speaks to a lovely relationship you had with her. So yeah, I mean, we were girls. Yeah. We were girls. Yeah. And girls are processed to behave a certain way, to want certain things. But culture, culture, really, acquiring those things has been made into a game. You know, you have to play a game in order to do this. And you have to play a game in order to do that. And there was nothing real and honest about the way that women were taught how to, because that was back into the glamour dues and all of that vogue stuff. You take the quiz on how you can get a boyfriend, all of that crap. And you become almost in your two. You have to behave a certain way in order to get the gold that you want. And for us, for Patrick and me, there were no games. We didn't know how to play games. There was no snark. There was nothing this, nothing that. It was just people and she was used to a different kind of treatment. And it wasn't necessarily a good way of being treated. But she allowed herself to be treated that way because she wanted a relationship so desperately. But when she saw the way we treated each other with respect. She wanted to study it because it was foreign to her. And it was foreign to a lot of the people up there. Right. I wanted her desperately to be happy, but she kept going in the wrong direction. And then when I met Jean, she wanted me to meet Jean. Jean Wilder. Yeah. I was like eight months pregnant and we had dinner with them. And I saw how they interacted and I realized that that's not what she doesn't want what I had. She wanted something very different. Oh, interesting. She wanted a dad. Oh, I see. And he was that. He was that. At least that was the dynamic I saw the first time I met them. She deferred to him and he clearly thought he was the better of the two. Oh, my God. Which I found very interesting. Was he respectful of her? Yes. Yes, as a dad would be. Wow. That was my impression. I could be totally wrong, but they had a wonderful relationship. They had a wonderful marriage. Yeah. So whatever it worked, it worked. It worked. Whatever it was. Right. She thought, you know, it wasn't what we had wasn't what she wanted. Right. I understand. Yeah. But she found, she found her way ultimately. She found her way ultimately. Yeah. I'm glad you had the friendship that you had with her. I mean, lucky you talk about good luck to have a lucky me to have a friendship with Lorraine who has had a very interesting life. Yes. And I just adore her. I know. She has been. She's been a queen of voice work. I mean, she is, she's amazing. And we're still friends after 50 years. And she was my rock at the 50th. Really? She was my rock. You know, like I sat next to her. Yeah. So she knew. And you could just sort of, yeah, she was your partner there that night. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the three women had of, you guys were joined at the hip. Yeah, we were. And we were all the beneficiaries of that, uh, conjoinment, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So I mean, we were lucky we had each other. Yes. We were lucky that we were picked. Yeah. To spend five years together. Yeah. And, uh, interesting times. Very interesting times. Yeah. Totally. We'll be right back with more from Jane Kurton after this break. Hey, prime members, did you know you can listen to Wizer than me add free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon music app to JHmme. Hey, Prime members. Did you know you can listen to Wiser than me, Add Free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening Add Free. If you're like the Wiser women on this podcast, you're really, really busy. That's why my idea makes appliances that handle things while you move on with your life. Like the one-touch, auto-fill French door fridge with a water dispenser that fills your cup perfectly. So you don't have to sit there and supervise water. 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Or if you're only an actor, you go around and hope that writers will write for you. And then Wednesday is the table read day, and that's when everybody comes together and reads mountains of material. And it's from that table read, certain decisions are made about what is going into the show. And so, you opted, as I understand it, not to be there on Monday and Tuesday. Is that correct? Well, you know, the first, I think it was the first couple of shows. I did what I was supposed to do or what everyone else did. And I would go up there, but I had no connection to anyone. Garrett and I were the only ones that really had no connection to anyone. Everybody else was from either the groundlings or from second city, or had made connections out in LA. But I was the only one really that came into this without any connection to the writing staff. Also, I wasn't hired as a writer. Right, I wasn't either. So I thought, why am I supposed to be going up and writing things? Because I'm not paying me as a writer. Right. I'm an actor, I'm a performer. That's what I'm getting paid for. So, I go up there, I walk around, nobody's paying any attention to me because they don't know me and they don't trust me. Right. They know the other people, so they trust the other people. They'd never seen anything I'd done because I hadn't done anything that they could have seen. So, it was a waste of time. And until, you know, on the Wednesday, read throughs, that was my favorite day because I love reading scripts. I love reading things out loud. I just put my whole heart and soul into everything because I want the writers to be able to have something on the air. And so, there was my favorite day of the week. And you're reading cold too, right? I'm really cold. Yeah. And so, from that, they started to trust me. So, then I didn't have to. I had no guilt involved in not going out Mondays and Tuesdays. And it was great. I had more than a life that I expected on that show. But I just saw how futile it was for, you know, a lot of people to get the attention that they needed in order to be put into one of those scripts. God, I really wish I had spoken to you back then. I wish I had known you and you could have told me that you would have saved me a lot of heartache. You know, there was no handbook. There was no handbook about what you were supposed to do. Right. And the thing was that Lauren loved this competition. And he thought everyone should be competing with everybody else. I didn't, I don't believe in that. I don't, I believe in cooperation. Nor do I. And I, that's what Lorraine and Gildo believed in as well. So he was thwarted on that, on that aspect. Because we proved that you don't need to compete. And everybody is not on the same plane. Everybody is not destined to do the same things. How did you know that he wanted you guys to compete specifically? He said it. Uh-huh. Okay. So I figured, well, he means it. Right. Right. I wanted to ask you about the sexism that was clearly in place when you were there. And it was very much in place when I was there. Was that in any way undermining to you or were you able to sort of power through it without looking back? You know how sexism has a way of sort of seeping into everything and can in fact affect you from a confidence point of view. What about that for you? Uh, because of my experience in the proposition, which was my first professional experience. The women in that show were more powerful than the men as far as performers went. Oh, but there was no, there was no problem with that. And it just happened to be. It just happened to be. At one point there were a couple of guys that were better than the women, but they left. And it was the women that were better than the men at that time. And so I was totally shocked at the attitude that I discovered when I entered the eight-h studio. I had never experienced anything like that in my life. Yeah. I mean, my brothers could be assholes and did not respect my sister in me, but that was the culture. And they still I think would have protected us at all costs, but the contempt for women that I felt from some of the men there was stunning. Stunning. Yeah, because it was so foreign to me and because it was something that I thought, you know, this was the time of the equal rights amendment. Right. That didn't pass. No. And I believed that it was going to. I believed that we were an enlightened group. That my peer group was the peer group that is going to give equal rights to women. Sure. And they weren't. And that shocked me. So I was incredibly disillusioned by. By certain men's behavior. And on the other hand, there were men that were just. Lovely. Couldn't have been nicer. Couldn't have been more appreciative of everything that you do. But but that overwhelming aggressive misogyny. Was a little hard to deal with, but it didn't get rid of my confidence because I had thought to be in this business. I mean, I just one day put my hand on a rock and said, OK, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah. OK, let me in. Let me in. I'm here. I'm going to do it. But I had no training. I had no reason why. Wow. So because of that, I was fighting to be to just be a part of it. So I had to have my confidence up. I had to keep that confidence going. Based on nothing. Absolutely. Nothing. Well, where did that come from? I have no idea for real. For real. For real. No, you have to have some idea. No, I wanted to go into the Foreign Service. Right. And my transcripts were never sent to the Georgetown School of Foreign Service. So I had no place to go. And I did the I did summer stock. And one of the women I met called me. She was going to school at the EU and she called me and she said, I have an audition in Cambridge. Come with me. And I said, what's it for? And she said, it's for an improv group. And I said, what's improv? And she said, oh, just come with me. So I went with her. And it was a little reconverted bakery in inman square in Cambridge. And there were a bunch of people that were auditioning. And there may be like 150 seats, maybe. And there was a little stage. And people were doing things on the stage. And the other people were saying, thank you. And other people would get up and do things. Thank you. And so my friend got up and she did. And she was the last one. And they said, thank you. And then they said, does anybody else want to audition? And I went. Wow. You raised your hand. I raised my hand. Do you remember what you did for the audition? No. No, I remember I had props. I had to go into the back room and get props. And so I had props. I don't know what I did. I have no idea. Yes. But that was. And because I had no reason to be accepted, I thought, I just have to keep fighting. I just have to keep telling them that there's a reason why I'm here. I have to convince them constantly that there's a reason I'm here. Maybe that came through. I think that came through, by the way, in your performance. You know, it was a strong, well, righteous isn't the word, but it was an authority. You did. You had an authority that held and held a viewer, by the way. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's what I think. I read that you were talking about the curse of the catch phrase, which is something that I could certainly relate to from Seinfeld days. Yeah. And I mean, is it safe to say we're grateful that something caught on and sort of catapulted you into a certain area, but it does have its downside. And I'm, of course, referring to Jane E. Wigner and slut. All right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was very, very funny at the time and shocking. Shot. I remember being shocked. Totally shocking at the time. And the shockiness of it is what I find is the most reason for the repetition. Yeah. And it's mostly repeated by guys. Oh, what a surprise. Yeah. But I just did a movie with Chris Walken. And he's got the curse of the catch phrase as well. Wait, what's his? Sorry. More cowbell. Oh, of course. Of course. Of course. I was going to ask you like, what would you say now to the younger version of yourself dealing with all of the conflict and difficulty of SNL days? But it sounds like you've said it to yourself. You don't need to give yourself advice from back in the day. You, you, I think I did okay. You did okay. I think I did okay. Yeah. You watched people make mistakes, which is what I think the youngest in a family has a tendency to do. You know, you can sit back and watch your siblings. Oh. How they handle situations and, and you learn from it. And I learned a lot from watching just about everybody on the show and decided that my root was the right root for me. And I didn't like the kind of attention we were getting. Oh, really? It was over the top. And it was all intentional. You know, Lauren wanted that big PR machine. Wanted us all to be stars before we had even done anything. So there was the hype of the show and then the actual show. And what happens is that it puts you on a plane up here and the normal people are down here. So when you go out into the world, the normal people cannot interact with you. It is impossible. You are so much cooler than they could ever be. I would walk my dog at like seven o'clock in the morning and people would shake when I would walk five them because of the hype of the show. And I didn't like it. Well, it's a lonely feeling, isn't it? It's a lonely feeling and it doesn't have to be. It's like you're not, you're not connected anymore. You're not connected anymore. You have no connection to the earth. Mm-hmm. You are not, your plane is not on the earth. Yeah, right. And that's why I did Kate and Ali. Because the show was so accessible, the characters were so accessible. People wanted to help Kate and Ali. They didn't want to feel as though Kate and Ali were better than they were. Interesting. Kate and Ali, just with these two gals, we're trying them every woman. Yeah. And so I went from here, which I didn't like at all, back down to earth. And it helped tremendously. It's time to take another quick break. My conversation with Jane Curtin continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a WISE OF THE ME news letter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Jane Curtin and more. You can subscribe now at WISEORTHEME.substack.com. You'll get photos, videos, letters from me, think, exclusive bonus snippets. Glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest plus, a place to connect with other WISEORTHEME listeners. I hope you subscribe at WISEORTHEME.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. Spring invites a reset. 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And what that experience was like from a actual work point of view as compared to SNL. Because I did the same thing. I went from SNL and then eventually did sitcoms. Some more successful than others. But it was an extraordinary experience to walk into a place where there was a script there. And with jokes or a proper story all in place and they're wanting you to do it. And you don't have to fight tooth and nail for the material. Right? Yeah, it's like a treasure trove. It's like doing a play. You've been cast in this play. And you go in and you go to the theater and you have your script in hand and you rehearse and you create this lovely thing. And Saturday Night Live was chaotic. And I don't function well in chaos. It just does not my style. But funny things happen in chaos. But funny things also happen in controlled situations. And I thought Kate now, he was very funny, hilarious. And I thought it was very topical. And my baby was eight months old when we started and Susan's baby, I think, was like 11 months old when we started. So and we had the kids on the show, Alison and Ari and Freddie and Billy Persky at the helm. So it was like leaving my home and going to another home with hours that were reasonable. Oh my god, this was on videotape. This was even pre-reasonable. This was this was overreasonable. Right. I mean, we would go in and we would start work at the 10. And then we'd work until 11 30 and then we'd start talking about what we were going to have for lunch. And this was on a day when there were no cameras. And then we would have lunch. And I could around two. We'd say, okay, that's it. And we go home. I could pick up, you know, my daughter and I could cook dinner and it was amazing. And then on show day, we had a rehearsal with the cameras on a Thursday, I think. And then this is for the first year. And then on Friday, we had rehearsal with the cameras. You went into 10 and you rehearsed and then you did the run through it too. And then the run through was generally done at four. And then the show started at seven. Well, there was one day when we did the run through and it ended at three. We went to the movies. No, it's not even true. It's true. We went to the movies. And then you came back to do the show before the audience. We started the show at seven and we were done at 830. It's just, it's like a dream. It wasn't dream. It was a complete and total dream. This was at the Ed Sullivan Theatre. Ed Sullivan Theatre. I mean, when I think it was Reagan was in town and Gorbachev was in town. And they said the motorcade's coming down seven. The motorcade's coming down seven. I'm there with a green kimono on and hot rollers in my hair. And I'm going, I want to see them. So I run out to seven. And I'm waving to Gorbachev and Reagan and my hot rollers. I hope somebody got a picture of that. That's hilarious. I don't think they did. But there was a, there was a cop who was doing crowd control that day. And he's the comedy cop. And he's a real cop. But he does stand up company for real. And he's, yeah, for real. He took off his hat and he gave me his card. And yeah, he's the comedy cop. I loved New York in the 70s. Oh, in the 80s, it was so much fun. But then you moved to California, yeah? No, no, no, no, no. Oh, you didn't. Well, no, I moved to California for third rock. And then you got to work with the wonderful John Lyskow. Oh, I know. It's the greatest man ever. I know. Yeah. Yeah. He's a good guy. Oh, man, did we have fun on that show? Yeah, that was evident. That was very evident. It's funny how having a good time can just ooze through into performance, right? Yeah, it does. It does. Well, you see it in what you do. You have that same, you have that same positivity. Mm. When you work, there is a positive energy that oozes out from you. And that's what leads it. That's what leads people into thinking, oh, well, they're having a great time. Mm-hmm. Which is what you want to see. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Even if you're depicting a bad time, you're having a good time depicting it, right? Right. I've worked on a couple of shows where you walk into the studio and it's heavy. Oh, man, is that the worst? The studio vibe is heavy and you think, oh, God, there's nobody here. That's happy. Mm-hmm. It's not fun. Not a fun place to be. Mm-hmm. I know. In fact, my third year at SNL was when Larry David was there. He was only there for that one year. And I glombed on to him because we sort of were both unbelievably miserable together. So we adhered to one another and shared the misery in a way that was very pleasant. Yeah. You know, it's important to have a misery, buddy. It's true. No, it is. Yeah. Yeah, a misery, buddy. Can speak volumes. But now, you grew up in a very sort of traditional family, right? You were raised Catholic. You were a debutante. And your mother stayed home to raise you. You had three siblings. Yeah. Was your mother funny? Oh, my mother and her sisters were very funny. Really? Very funny. Yeah. And there is a Boston funny. Like there's a Chicago funny. Yeah. You know, it's a silly funny. And it's something that you pick up just walking around the streets. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, my mother and her sisters would all get together. And it was nothing but lashing. Well, drinking. But it was also a lot of lashing. And there were times when my mother and my sister would come down to visit me for a weekend. And we'd be in the kitchen cooking. And we'd be in different areas of the kitchen. And all of a sudden, it's spontaneously. We will all laugh at the same time, not having spoken. It's just it has to come out. It's in there. It has to come out. It was fun with my mother. My mother was so much. Oh, I'm sure. Oh, I'm sure. It sounds like. And also, there's something very, very. It's like a bomb. The female camaraderie within a family itself is hard to describe. But it's like just, I don't know. It's made up of belly laughs. Yeah. Nothing like it. Yeah. Nothing like it. How did you reconcile, you know, I'm a mother too. And I had my kids in sort of the middle of my career. Both of them were born during Seinfeld days. And how did you do the work thing and the motherhood thing? How was straddling both universes for you? Was it a challenge? How did that work for you? I had a husband who was a wonderful father. And when we started dating and decided that we were going to get married, we were going to get married. We were going to get married. We were going to get married. Neither one of us had great ambitions. Because we didn't know what we were going to be doing. We didn't have a clue. We had an idea that maybe we wanted to do this. Maybe we wanted to do this. But it wasn't written. It's tone. It wasn't something that we were. a wonderful way to approach what we were about to do because we were just open to see what we were available. I heard you were set up on a blind date with your husband, is that right? What was the date? What did you guys do? Well, I was in the proposition at the time and he had been at Yale Drama School and he had gone to Brown and then gone to Yale after Brown. When he was at Brown, he was dating this woman, Gail. They both went to Yale together and they broke up. But they were still very friendly. They were still great friends. This woman Gail, I had met through a woman that we were going to hire for the season and she came out to dinner with us with my husband. We were all at this big table in Boston. It was the only place that was open after 11 and we were all sort of talking. Of course, we were all very stoned because this was the 60s. I saw him across the table. I thought, well, he's cute, but I didn't talk to him. And Gail called me about four months later. We were all in New York and she said, Patrick Lynch just called me and asked, take us for a hockey game, but I hate hockey. But you like hockey. I'm going to call him back and tell him you like hockey. I said, Gail, I can, she hangs up on the Chicago's Patrick Lynch. She says, Jane Curtin, you met her. She loves hockey. So she'd love to go to the game with you. So what a setup. Gail, I can perfectly capable of she hangs up on it. So she calls me back and says, he's calling you. She calls him back and says, she's waiting for the call. No, this Gail is too much. Yeah. And so he thought I was someone else in the proposition. Oh, come on. So his plan was he was going to we were going to meet outside the GM building on 57 and the fifth. And he was going to take me to an Italian restaurant with a hand on the side of the building that said one flight up. And we were going to go for beers. But instead we ended up at the Plaza at the Tom Court. And we had a little champagne before we went to the hockey game. And we went to the hot we just started talking and talking and talking and talking and talking and talking. And we went to the hockey game and he thought, oh, shit, I'm going to have to explain hockey to her. And I said, oh, my god, Ace Bailey changed his number. And he said, how do you know this? But anyway, so he liked me because I didn't he didn't have to explain hockey. He liked me because I didn't take that much time in the bathroom. Oh. And so after the hockey game, we went down to a burger place down in the village and they had to kick us out. And I mean, and we started talking then and we never stopped. Oh, my god. Oh, that's so beautiful. That's a lovely story. Yeah. That's a lovely story. Pretty great. And so were you his caregiver at the end of his life for you sort of yeah, you were that's hard or is it hard? It is, but you don't want to be anywhere else. Yeah, right. You know, so it's what you do. And it's what he would have done as well. So and how if you don't mind my asking, what did he pass away from? What did he die from? Oh, he had so many different things wrong yet. C O P D. He had three different kinds of aggressive cancers that sort of showed their evil heads. Oh, the last one. It was just it was a long slog. Mm-hmm. And so he just recently passed away. It wasn't that long ago. April. Yeah. So how are you in grief now this day? I mean, I'm sure it's every day is a different day. I'm imagining it. Every day is a different day. You never know when it's going to get you. It's a biological thing. Town. Because you are suffering from PTSD essentially. And so it is a biological reaction grief and and you have no control over it. So you just have to let it go. How does it show up? You cry in the car. Oh, it tears and and your brain is is out of whack and and it did. You have to reconnect yourself because you have a new reality that is totally different from the one you had before. Yes. Yeah. It's a new way of being in the world. Exactly. Exactly. For instance, up in Canada, I had no one to call. You know, when you're killing time and you want to do in a trailer and you want to call and you want to chat, but you don't have anything to say. Yes. So you call your husband because they're the ones that will listen to you. And you know, say, but how's it going and this and that? But there was no no backup. So Jane, in that moment, I wonder because so many people are walk with grief. I mean, we all do is living human beings. In that moment, when you have nobody to call, how do you fill that space in that moment? Like, what did you do? You get over it. You talk yourself out of it, you say, okay, I have things to do. I have things to do. Like grocery shopping, like, you know, I can't I can't sit and and and think about things that are just making me sad. So I, you know, just have to get out of my head and into the world. Have you worked a lot since your husband passed? Well, that 50th was the first thing. Oh, wait, I'm getting a phone call. Oh, that's all right. You can get it if you want. I don't want to. And also, I don't know how to answer that phone. I keep hanging up on people. I'll call back. But 50th was the first thing I had done when he was that sick. And he and my daughter both said, you have to go. You have to go. I didn't want to because I should have been home. So I wasn't really there. And it was so surreal because not only did I not have my home base, but, you know, he was always with me at those things. But I was at sea. So I didn't know what to do with myself. So I didn't really have a good time. But I remember meeting people that were just so fun and so thrilled to be there. And I couldn't really participate. Yeah. I completely understand that you were unmoored. Totally. That time. Totally. And this movie that I just did with Chris Walken, which has been in the works for about a year. So I didn't know whether I would be able to do it or not. And it was the right thing for me to do because you get into you get into a sort of a loop when you're trying to recreate or reinvent yourself. And I was trying to, you know, pay the bills and do the taxes and do all of this kind of stuff, which I don't know how to do. But I got into this loop of paying attention to that. And not dealing with the outside world. I say so the movie got me away from that and back into the world. And dealing with adorable human beings and it was good. It was a good thing to do. Yeah. So maybe more of that's a good idea. Yeah. I think it is. Yeah. Well, we always end with some quick little questions. And I'm wondering, Jane, is there anything you're looking forward to? No. No. No. I just wait for the phone to ring. And it just did. It did. And you didn't take the fuck. I didn't take it. I didn't take it. But no, I just, I just wait for things to happen. I know I'm not looking forward to anything. Tomorrow tomorrow. I'm looking forward to tomorrow. Well, that's very good. I like that. There, there's so many of these questions. There's no reason for me to ask you because I know what the answers are going to be like something you'd go back and say yes to. I don't think there's anything in there that you would, you've already said yes, everything you wanted to say yes to. Am I right about that? Yeah, pretty much. Everything that I could do. Yes. Understood. Is there something you would like to tell me about aging? Just keep moving. I've been doing Pilates for 40 years. No. And yeah. And I have a reformer at my house. I have a little gym. I started out doing with a concept to aometer rowing machine because I wasn't moving enough. I was working, but I was working and then sitting. So I started out rowing, which I really liked because you could sit and you could watch TV. And then a friend of mine said, no, you got to do Pilates. So I started doing Pilates and I've been doing it for a long time. And I am not, you know, I don't do the entire routine every day. But I work on the things that I need to work on. And it has saved my life. My mother had arthritis that was pretty bad. And she couldn't do a lot of things that I can do now. And it's all because I kept moving. So that's the most important thing to do. Keep moving. Keep moving. Keep moving. Well, I thank you for spending time with us today. It's really been delightful to talk with you. I hope our paths cross again because I admire you so deeply. And I just think you're obviously a wonderful person and you're an extraordinary performer actor. And I just, I'm a big fan. So thank you for taking the time. It's very generous of you. Thank you. Well, thank you, Julia. It was very generous of you to save those lovely things. This was great. I appreciate it. It was fun. Likewise, thank you. Well, that was historic to be able to talk at Great Length with Jane Curtain. She just, she means so much to me. Wow, I know my mom's going to get a kick out of the fact that I have to talk with her. Let's get around the Zoom. Hi, mommy. Hi, love. Hi, so guess who we spoke to today? Who? Jane Curtain. Oh, I love Jane Curtain. Did you watch Saturday at Live the first year, mom? Do you remember watching it at all? Oh, well, we used to watch it all the time at home. I remember that we used to on Saturday nights. Everybody would come in or we would be in, we probably didn't watch it every Saturday night, but it was a, I remember it was a family deal. I know, Guilda of course got a lot of attention, but Jane was and Lorraine, all of them. They were this team of women. It was pretty amazing to particularly now in retrospect to think of them and what they were doing in that moment because it was such a cultural revolution that SNL represented. Do you remember, mom, when I got cast on SNL? Oh, are you kidding? Well, I'm asking because I wonder what you remember about that. Well, I remember is that we got a call maybe 12, 30 or 1 o'clock in the morning and you're hush hush and you say, we're going to New York, we're going to Saturday night, I think I'm they've hired the whole game. And of course, I was convinced that you were calling because you've gotten killed in automobile accident. It was a long distance call. Right. And you went, I mean, it was just unreal. It just seemed to me like you were just snatched out of the world and put it on television. Yeah, because we were. I just remember that time as being like people had said, along, oh, joy is so good and so good and so good. And I kept thinking, well, yeah, this is, it was a used to say, yeah, but you can't make a nickel or dime doing it. And so when you actually got hired and we're going to be paid and we're going to be a pro, that was that became like, oh my god, you can, you can make it life this way. Were you worried that it wouldn't work? No, I didn't think it would ever work. It's not that, you know, you would sort of grow up and that would be over and get a job at a bank. Or you could be a secretary, you know, no kidding. No, I know it sounds awful, but it never occurred to me in the way I was raised that you could, that you could, you know, find a way to get into the into it and to make a living out of it and just, uh-huh, either that happened to other people always and not to anybody on you. Right. Interesting. The Jane spoke a lot about her husband, whose name was Patrick Lynch. And he died recently. And so she's very much in the throes of making that adjustment. And she was talking about her marriage. And I was asking about how she did it because, I mean, she's worked a lot as an actor and I asked her, how did she balance that? And she said, well, she was married to a Mr. Mom. And I almost said, oh, well, I was, I was, I am married to one too, but she is clearly very indebted to him for the success that she's had. And also when he was working, you know, she wasn't working. And so she sort of held down the fort and they did that back and forth in the same way that, you know, Brad and I have done it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Right. It's remarkable. And, and what's more, I think it's wonderful for the children because the roles aren't like father and mother. They're, they're sort of nurturing, they're nurturing roles. I remember back when I was doing Veepe and I, we shot Veepe the first four years. I can't even believe it, but the first four years, we shot it in Baltimore, Maryland, as you know. And so Brad was really on deck with our youngest Charlie. And one of the things they did was, oh God, what's chef's name, Jamie Oliver. And he had these like, I don't know, 25-minute meals. And so Brad and with Charlie made sort of a game out of making these things. So it was really fun because then when I came home, there was a particular burger they made that had a lot of cumin and spices in it that was off the charts. Good to this day that that he still makes. It was absolutely delicious, but it was just an example of the many sweet things that, um, yeah, that they did together that that made it so much just fun. And the fact that that Brad had fun being with the boys. Yes. He just really Brad was just, he really got down and played with the guys with the boys. Yeah. He certainly did still does for that matter. But and Brad, you know what? Hi Judy, know what? I remember that you had that back surgery. And you said to me, well, I'm not going to have it until Charlie can no longer needs to be and go piggyback with me. Well, that's why I've waited until now. Yes, that's how he put off his back surgery until both boys were men. To actually, in fact, it's true because Brad did not, I'm not going to pretend you're not on this on this Brad. So that he was a devoted and is a devoted parent and then did get the surgery. And I think he would still give them piggyback rides if if they wanted it. We'll say, so they had to carry him to the road. Yeah. By the time he got he got the surgery, they had to piggyback him in. But then he got it and it was successful. So that was good. Anyway, I have never questioned Brad's, uh, fidelity or I know devotion devotion. Yeah, fidelity. Maybe you have questions. I think I think we better stop now. Before yeah, I think I'm on a power trip. Yeah. Okay, mom, well, I'm so happy to talk to you and I love you so much. And I love you too. And we'll talk soon. Okay. Bye. There's more Wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode ad free plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts head to lemonada premium dot com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership. That's lemonada premium dot com. Make sure you're following Wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and tick-tock at Wiser than me and we're on Facebook at Wiser than me podcast. We're also on substack at wiserthanme.substack.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and O'Hallopes. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and me. The show is mixed by John Evans Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlagel and of course my mother Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts and if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.