Goats vs. Boa Constrictors: a curious debate

Hi friends, you might have heard that Bark, Sandin and I are on the road this spring with brains on live. We've been to several cities so far and it has been so much fun. Our next two stops are Atlanta and Fort Lauderdale. That's at the end of March. Then we just announced that we added Lawrence, Kansas in May and Columbus, Ohio in June. We're also heading to Chattanooga, Durham, Milwaukee, Portland, Buffalo and Ann Arbor, Michigan. We hope you'll be able to join us at one of those shows. We can't wait to see you to get tickets and get more information. You can head to brainson.org slash events. That's brainson.org slash events. From the brains behind brains on, it's Smash Boom Best. The show for people with big opinions. Hi, I'm Molly Bloom and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate pairs a nimble climber with a silent slitherer. It's goats versus boa constrictors. Radio Lab co-host and science historian, Latif Nasser is here to give us the goods for team goats. Who let the goats out? Huh, huh, huh, huh. And science TV personality and host of the podcast, Ologies and Smologies, Allie Ward is here to bring the squeeze for team boa constrictors. Quiet, cunning, experts at hugging, it's boa or bust. And here to judge it all is Calista from Atlanta, Georgia. Calista loves animals, especially predators, is super crafty with a hot glue gun and loves to lead her siblings on imaginative adventures in the backyard. Hi, Calista. Hi, Molly. So, Calista, what kind of predators are your favorite? I like big cats, especially lions. They're just like cool. I like that they're like bigger and tougher. Do you think your heart can be opened to a non-predator in the debate today? Can you put your predator love aside for a wee bit? Definitely. Wonderful. So what are some of your favorite crafts that you've used a hot glue gun on? I took Altoids containers and I put a bunch of rhinestones on them and gave them as little trinket boxes to my siblings for Christmas. Oh, that is so sweet. How many siblings do you have? Not including me, I have four. OK, so there's five of you. Yeah, you're leading adventures. You're giving them presents. It's really sweet. So do you have any advice for our debaters today? Have fun. Excellent advice. Will Calista side with Lutif or Allie? Only time will tell. But first, Smash Boom Best is a nonprofit public radio program, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show. You can donate, become a smarty pass subscriber or buy our merch. Like a Smash Boom Best hoodie, pencil pouch or keychain. Head to smashboom.org to show your support. Thanks. Now on to the rules. Every debate consists of four rounds, the Declaration of Greatness, the micro round, the sneak attack and the final six. After each round, our judge, Calista, will award points to the team that impresses her the most, but she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate. Listeners, we want you to judge too. Mark down your points as you listen. At the end of the show, head to our website smashboom.org and vote for whichever team you think won. OK, Lutif, Allie and Calista, are you ready? Yep, definitely. Never been more so. Then it's time for the... Declaration of Greatness. In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We flip to coin and Lutif, you're up first. Tell us what makes goats the goat. For today's debate, don't think of me as Lutif. Think of me as goat if. Because I've joined a goat herd. I strapped on a pair of horns, pranced out to a pasture, and now I'm one with the goats. You said it, Goatrudstein. Goat life is the best. No jobs, no homework, no stress, no mess. Well, I mean, actually, tons of mess. Because me and my GFFs love to roll around in dust and soil as a way to clean ourselves. I look amazing, right? And goats are so fun. They're playful, a little mischievous, and hysterical. Good one, goat is redding. See, so funny. This is way better than being a snake, where you just, I don't know, pretend to be a stick and hope no one steps on you. Shed your skin like some kind of living banana peel. Instead, I'm out here climbing tall things and then standing on tall things. I'm jumping, I'm bleeding. I'm eating grass. So much fiber. Going full goat isn't as wild as it seems. In fact, about 10 years ago, a man named Thomas Thwaites spent a week in the Swiss Alps living with goats. He even built prosthetic legs so we could walk on all fours. He later said goats showed him how to be more present and relaxed. When I'm with goats, I definitely feel more chill. It makes sense humans and goats get along because we go way back, like around 10,000 years back. It's the dawn of civilization. In a place called the Fertile Crescent, which spans North Africa, Western Asia, no electricity, no running water. Humans are just learning to farm when a brilliant idea strikes. Dude, what if we farmed goats? Like we planted them in dirt? I don't think that's how you grow more goats, bro. No, we just keep them around the farm. Then those goats will make more goats and those goats will make even more goats and then we'll be goat millionaires. OK, it didn't happen quite like that. But goats were one of the first domesticated animals. People used them for meat, for milk, for furs. Goats helped keep humans alive in a tough time. Did snakes help with anything? I'd offer you humans a hand, but I don't have any. In fact, I'd say that in the list of most important human innovations of all time, it goes fire, the wheel, and number three, the domesticated goat. Bum, bum, bum, bum. But I don't just love goats for what they give. I love them for who they are. Like, have you seen their pupils? That's the black part in the middle of the eye. Ours are circles, so we mostly focus on what's right in front of us. Goats have rectangular pupils. This lets them see really far around them in both directions. Plus, I love how goats take on different roles in the herd. There's the top buck. He's the one who keeps the crew safe from predators like mountain lions. Back off, kitty, or you get the horns. And then there's the flock queen. She's responsible for leading the herd to the best feeding grounds. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, which is why we're going to hop it. Legs up, goaties. And they're not just social with each other. Some scientists think goats can be as loving with us as dogs are, which you probably already knew if you've ever cuddled a goat at a petting zoo. They're friendly. They're fun. They've helped humanity. What's not to love? Come on, join the herd. What's that, Olivia Huff, Rodrigoat? There's a fresh patch of clover down yonder? What are we waiting for? Let's ride. I could definitely go for some goat cuddles right about now. Kalista, what stood out to you about Latif's Declaration of Greatness? I love that they're so social and that they could be as loving as dogs. And also the no hands joke was hilarious. Yes, it was. OK, Allie, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why goats really get your goat. You've got 30 seconds, and your time starts now. I wish I had more time. Listen, first off, goats think they're so cute. Have you ever seen a barnyard animal that is more in love with itself? Everyone wants to start a goat farm, but what they don't know is that goat farms incredibly smelly. Do you know that goats make much more methane than, say, boa constrictors do? And if you have a goat farm, you're going to need pretty high fences because they can jump all of them. Also, I don't want to have to wear prosthetic hooves in order to go on a hike with my friend who is a goat. I don't need that. And time. I'd like to pose a simple question. Everybody listening, Allie, Kalista, who would you rather be trapped in a room with, a goat or a snake? Sure, maybe goats think they're the goat because they are the goat. But snakes, I mean, come on, they're not even hugging you. They're just trying to steal your heat and strangle you to death. I don't know. To me, the choice is clear. Right, we have a lot to think about. And here is some more. Allie, it is your turn. Tell us why boa constrictors are joy inflictors. Welcome to the World Wrestling Snake Entertainment. Tonight's matchup is a real sizzler for you animal fans. In one corner, we've got the boa, you want a noa, it's the boa constrictor. And in the other, we have a goat. First, let's say hello to our wrestlers. Leslie the boa constrictor is a whopping 13 feet long. That's longer than a moose. She also enjoys long slithers in the moonlight. And she's logged over 100 hours in Minecraft. And over here, we have Gary the goat. Gary screams like a human child, is prone to fainting, and never calls his mom because, apparently, goats don't appreciate their moms. Now let's get this sneaky smackdown started. And Leslie is starting strong by wrapping her powerful body around Gary the goat and absolutely squeezing. Folks, a boa constrictor is capable of exerting up to 25 pounds of pressure per square inch. That's like having a bunch of bowling balls pressing down on you. Our goat friend is in a real bind. Who is this? Is Gary reaching for a towel? No, he's waving a fly that says, I don't appreciate my mom. Who is that even for? Geez, that goat has its priorities all out of whack. I would put my money on Leslie winning the match, since boa constrictors are super powerful, stealthy, and cunning. The way they hunt their prey is so sly. These nighttime hunters use beautiful patterns on their scales to blend into brush so they can wait in utter silence until their prey finds them. Folks, it appears that Leslie the boa constrictor has straight up vanished. Our goat competitor is looking very confused. And oh my goodness, Leslie's back. She was blending in with the ropes of the rig this whole time. Ha, yeah, that sounds about right. Thanks to the boas' masterful swimming and climbing abilities, there's almost nowhere prey can go to avoid them. Even if a victim is out of sight, boas can still find them by sensing their body heat. And their hunting doesn't just benefit the boa, it can help us too. For example, boas can help control certain pest populations, like a rat infestation. Can you imagine what life would be like without them? Hey there, neighbor. Just wanted to stop by and say hi. Oh wow. Wait, are you a giant rat? Yes, I am. Just wanted to let you know that me and my dozen kids just moved into the dumpster across the street. Oh, and heads up. We're covered in fleas. Wow, that's so interesting. One sec. Hello, operator. Connect me to World Wrestling Snake Entertainment, specifically Leslie. See, everyone wants a boa around. Even if you don't have flea-ridden varmints to handle, boas are great to have as pets. They're hypoallergenic, so there won't be any fur or dander to clean up. Plus, boas only eat every couple of weeks and can live for up to 40 years. That means you can grow up with these incredible animals. And fun fact, Leslie and I went to high school together, right girl? You know it bestie. And because these radical reptiles are on the quiet side, they'll never annoy you, unlike some animals I know. Don't even fret about your boa buddy trying to eat you. It would never. It's physically impossible for a boa to fit a human in its mouth. So unless you're wrestling one, you're probably OK. Oh, that reminds me. And she's done it, ladies and gentlemen. Leslie, the boa constrictor is the winner of tonight's wrestling match. Gary has tapped out, and in a show of concession, he's calling his mother, all hail the snake queen. Boa constrictors, they're super hunters that make great pets, take care of pests, and are simply the best. Leslie, Leslie, Leslie. Oh, I was ringside for that. That was very, very exciting. OK, Halista, what stood out to you about Allie's argument? I love free pest control, and it's very sad that goats don't care about their moms. That is spurious. OK, lots of it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why boas are no us. You've got 30 seconds, and your time starts now. OK, there were two arguments in there, basically. One is that they're good killing machines, and one is that they're good pets. Sure, they're good killing machines. Fine, you want me to say that, I said it. But I'm someone who roots for the underdog, not the assassin. OK, they are also not good pets. People abandon their boa pets all the time. They get bored of them because they're not that smart. They're not that affectionate. They're not that expressive. It's not a competition here. I think goats, clearly, they're the ones you want to root for. And time. Not expressive. This is someone who has never been hugged by a boa constrictor, and I understand why, to be honest, because they're heat seeking, and that's a cold heart over there if I've ever heard one. That's colder than a boa. All right, Calista, it is time to award some points. Please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness that you liked best, and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. Have you made your decision? I have. Wonderful. Allie and Latif, how are you two feeling so far? Feeling great. Feeling a little cold, I guess, over here, but otherwise great. I'm enraged. Incensed. I'm furious. This is an injustice. You know what could cheer you up? A goat. A goat could really cheer you up. OK, it is time for a coic break. Hop on a rock and coil around a branch. And we'll be right back with more Smash Crew Best. You're watching State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation. Hello, debate friends. Taylor Lincoln here. And it's a bird. No. It's a plane. No. It's a dapper debater with a tweed suit and a winning smile. Todd Douglas. Guilty on all accounts. And speaking of guilty, we caught someone guilty of doing a debate crime, making a logical fallacy. These are arguments with criminally bad logic that weaken the point you're trying to make. In this case, it's the strawman fallacy. That's when you create a weak or distorted version of your opponent's point and then attack that instead. Oof. It should be illegal. Listen. And if I'm elected mayor, I'll spend even more money on schools. Instead of spending half the city's budget on my own birthday party, like our current mayor does. Whoa. You're against birthday parties? How can you be against birthday parties? That's not what I said. What's next? Outlying cake? Or clowns? Are you kidding me? No. I just think the budget should be used for schools, not parties. Re-elect me and I'll never ban parties. In fact, I'll use the budget to throw myself an even bigger party next year. Wow. What a whopper of a strawman right there. Yeah. Point was about how the city spends its money, not about banning birthday parties. You know it's always a party? You can smack about logical fallacies with your bestie? You know it. Let's do it again soon. On State of Depeate. Brains on Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore. It's Alien Exercise Hour. Hi-yah. Well, I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampolini. I'll listen to a new podcast. I'm going to try for Everagol, the best history podcast ever. To understand why anyone would think a TV show could change the world, we need to go way back. To America in the 1960s. Rock and roll was pretty new. Ford released the iconic Mustang Muscle. Xorp. Come back here, podcast. Must listen to Foreveragol now. Listen to Foreveragol wherever you get your podcast. Smash Boom Best. You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom. And I'm your judge, Calista. And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this homey debate idea from June. Hi, my name is June. I live in Minnesota. My debate idea is doll houses versus big, regular houses. There's no place like home. Don't check back in at the end of this episode to see which side June Things should win. And now it's back to our debate. Goats versus bow constrictors. That's right. And it's time for round two, the... Microround. For the Microround challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Latif and Ali, the prompt was, Letter to the Editor. We asked the debaters to write a letter to the editor of a publication of their choosing, complaining about something inspired by either side. Latif went first last time, so Ali, you're up. Give us your boa constrictor-inspired letter to the editor. Dear Vogue Editor-in-Chief, I'm writing to express extreme disappointment and frustration at your recent fashion spread featuring feather boas. This fluffy tuft of neck decor is far too festive for casual wear. What an insult to boa constrictors everywhere to see humans flaunting their feather boas at raucous celebrations, flipping these ostentatious accessories hither and thither. Meanwhile, us boa constrictors are once again, seem simply as a neck choking threat or a trivial fashion accessory. And as an ectotherm, you might call us cold-blooded. But I'd argue that your blood runs colder to use such loaded terms for our maligned species. I pity your warm-blooded need to cozy your own necks at the expense of our reputation. Instead of relying on this outdated and frankly shameful feather boa term, may I offer, in light of your lack of imagination, such snake-less phrases such as plumage scarfs or bird stoles. Perhaps the common fluff sash gets the job done. And as you scratch your hairy human heads, wondering how I'm even penning this letter, is all 3,500 snake species lack limbs? Well, I once again urge you to use some imagination. And remember that boa constrictors are known to flourish despite heavy constraint, especially under high pressure and tight, tight deadlines. Hot under the collar, be constrictor. Wow, an amazing vocabulary and a passion for fashion from that boa constrictor. Okay, Latif, it is your turn. Let's hear your goat-inspired letter to the editor. Meh, dear editor. In general, when others say mean things about me, I usually just ignore it. Especially when it happens in a publication as shady as the scaly daily news. But this time I just couldn't bear it, not by the hairs on my chinny chin chin. The article, written by well-known snake reporter Anders Sun Cooper, claims that a goat, who looks a lot like me, went out of their way to recklessly headbutt a local child. Meh, anyone who's ever met a goat knows we'd never do such a thing. Here's what really happened. I work at a petting zoo. I spend my whole day hanging out with humans who want to hang out with me. As for the headbutt, it's a bit embarrassing, but I fell asleep. I have a medical condition that causes me to faint if I get too excited. And this child and I were having so much fun. I fainted on top of her. But don't worry, I'm just a tiny goat. She didn't get hurt at all. She even helped nurse me back awake. Listen, I get why snakes who kill tens of thousands of people every year would want to make us goats who kill on average zero people every year look bad, to feel better about their snake selves. We goats are used to taking the fall for all kinds of things, getting the blame for stuff we didn't even do. That's why they call it scapegoating. But please, next time, snakes, stop twisting the facts. Sincerely, I'll falfer the goat at the happy horns and hoofs petting zoo. The greatest of all time setting the record straight. Kalista, what did you like about Latif and Allie's micro rounds? They were both very, very funny. I love plumage scarfs. That's great. Kalista, it is time to award a point. But don't tell us who it's going to. Have you made your decision? Yes, I have. Fantastic. And it's time for our third round, the super stealthy sneak attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's sneak attack is called Haiku for you. Your challenge is to write one haiku about how great your side is, and another one about how terrible the other side is. Debaters, are you ready for your sneak attack? Yes. Oh yeah. We'll start with Latif. Let's hear one haiku about the glory of the goat, and one about those bad, bad boas. Goats have such soft wool. They made your favorite sweater, like the warmest hug. So nice. Boas pretend hug. Really they smother and kill. Also botulism. Wow. Slander. It's first off. Slander. So you will be hearing from our lawyers. The CDC, I looked it up, they have warnings for snake owners, and one of the problems is botulism. One of the diseases they give to their owners. One of one. One of many. You're right. You're right. Many, many. You're so right. You're so right about that. It was a hand sanitizer. Yeah, yeah. Lots of diseases. You think goats don't have germs? Yeah, but snakes apparently are in the highest risk category, and goats are not. Do you know what goats do for fun? They literally go pee-pee on each other for fun. You know what, I'm not here to judge anybody for what they have to do for fun. They have talons growing out of their head, and they still can't kill anything. Yeah, because they don't want to. Why are we putting such a premium on wanting to kill other living things here? If they could eat a living thing, you know they would. They eat tin cans. Yeah, because they're like recyclers. They like to make the best of it. That's like a good thing. Okay. Let's hear your haikus. We'll start with the beauty of the boa, and then one about those grungy goats. Well, first off, I just want to say I think it's very, very underhanded, even though my team doesn't even have hands. I think it's very underhanded of lot if to exploit our hug ability. And my haiku, in favor of the boas, smooth, stealthy slithers eating up rats like candy. Boas hug our hearts. And while that is true sometimes, actually, because that is how they kill their prey, they do hug our hearts from a metaphorical standpoint. So many meanings. So many meanings, so much depth in a snake. Let's hear your haiku against goats. Screaming stinky goats, wear over your prestige. Goats, let ye be gone. Oh. It was kind of threatening. All right. Callista, it is time to award some points for the sneak attack. Think about which side impressed you the most and award your fourth point. Have you made your decision? Yes, I have. Perfect. Then it's time for our final round. The final six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Okay, Allie, let's hear your six words for your boa besties. Boas don't even need legs, so. I enjoyed that very much. All right. Lot if it is your turn to give us your six words about the goodness of goats. Grace of all time, plus cheese. Oh, we are finishing strong today, everybody. This is a tough decision, Callista, but it is time to award a final point for the final six. Have you made your decision? I have awarded my point. Wonderful. All right. Let's see up those points. Drum roll please. And the winner is Bo constrictors. Oh, yes. Rightfully so. Callista, I knew you had it in you. Game recognized game is what that is. You know, predators get it. Did it come down to the final six? Yes. Oh my gosh. As close as close can be. Lot if is a genius and being paired with him is one of the crueler things that you all have done with me because he is the goat and someone who can come up with a haiku that involves botulism off the dome is not to be messed with. So I'm lucky that I had such a fierce animal to defend because Lot if his brain is a fierce animal, he's got a snake in there. And I mean that as a compliment. Ally is like a lion in our field and I'm so excited to be able to sit next to her and do this and watch her work. The thing I was like particularly astonished by was this creature, B constrictor. I imagined it's like a B E A. It was like the name like B Arthur or something. But that was so fashion forward, but also eloquent about how much she cared about fashion terminology. And that's just not where I thought that that was ever going to go. It was so great and imaginative and delightful and I loved it. Well that is it for today's debate battle. Kalista crowned boa constrictors the Smash Boom Best, but what about you? Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won. Smash Boom Best is brought to you by Brains On and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom, Anna Weggel and Aaron Woldeselassie. We had engineering help from Jean Baron, Daniel McDonald and Evelyn Boca Negra with sound designed by Anna Weggel. Our editors are Shayla Farzan and Sandin Totten with fact checking by Rosie Dupont and Rebecca Rann and we had production help from the rest of the Brains On universe team Rachel Breeze and Agoldfield, Miko Gonzalez-Whistler, Ruby Guthrie, Lauren Humpert, Joshua Ray, Mark Sanchez and Charlotte Traver. Our executive producers, Beth Perlman and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Gavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marlee Foylerworker Otto and we want to give special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Lotif, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today? Okay, so I'd like to thank in addition to the wonderful staff here at this show and the wonderful staff at Radiolab and our kids show Terrestrials, I would like to thank Thomas Thwaites, the man who lived as a goat for real. Awesome. And how about you, Allie, any special shout outs? I just want to shout out Lotif, my opponent, as well as everyone at Ologies and Smologies, our kid friendly show. And I want to thank everyone out there who has a boa and who believed in boas. Please give them a hug back for me. Yes, we are so honored to have both of you here. Your shows are some of our favorites, and especially your two for kids, Smologies and Terrestrials, go check them out. And how about you, Kalista, any special thanks or shout outs? I would like to thank my dad, because he's the one who signed me up for this. Yeah. And I would like to shout out both of the debaters. You guys both did an amazing, great job. Thanks, Alistair. Woohoo! Before we go, let's check in and see who June thinks should win, the dollhouse versus regular house debate. I think the big houses will win, because you can live in them. If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown drag out debate, head to smashboom.org slash contact and drop us a line. And make sure to subscribe to Brains on Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. That's it for this season, but we'll be back August 14th with a big season, including 16 shiny new episodes. We can't wait. Bye! Adios! Bye! See you later! I need a hug. I don't need a pile of milk duds on the floor, if you know what I'm saying. But just be careful that hug doesn't end up being your last moment on Earth. Never.