FURQAN MEERZA: FUGITIVE CHEFS / HEAD OF KETCHUP FOR THE WORLD / CHEF IDENTITY CRISIS

I feel time is a major factor to the story because Noma has changed it. My personal story can only be what I experienced. It was it as abusive as it makes it sound, but again the other layer to it is I was coming from much more abusive kitchens. So again, me telling it wasn't abusive doesn't mean there was nothing happening. Unfortunately, in the industry what's happening is we give the most value to the people who serve the least people with the most amount of money. That's what is causing this problem of imbalance where food companies don't even need to think of employing chefs. I've always chosen the option which I do not if I do not choose it, I regret the most. You might go wrong, but at least you you were in the driving seat and not being driven by somebody else in the car. Chef, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to come on the podcast today. And the biggest burning question because of your background is what are your thoughts on Noma, man? Because that's been the rave, that's the talk right now. And you literally lived it and saw it in its prime. Yeah, I mean, I've got this question for the first few weeks, what's been going on? I mean, I've spoken to Jason White personally as well over Instagram because we shared the same space. We were working together because a lot of the stories coming out of our people who have been at Noma at different points of time. And I feel time is a major factor to the story because Noma has changed itself. So as you pick up a slice, you'll feel, OK, this version or this account of things doesn't match the other person's story. So with Jason, the thing is Jason was working in 2022 when I was there as well. And my personal, I mean, I walked there as an intern. First of all, I entered there for a one month internship. My idea was to intern because I was for background, I was working in Mugharitz and Mugharitz is a restaurant which closes for R&D. Is the one of the only places which does that. It works eight months a year, four months at Shutt's. And during that Shutt period, I was saying, OK, I'll try some other kitchen and ended up being the second week in Noma. They offered me a contract. They said, OK, if you want, we have a place for you. And that was not what I had expected because, I mean, they have tons of interns on their doors, literally, which also is a layer of why the environment is the way it is. And a lot of what Jason says is true. That is, there are there are true stories behind it. My personal story can only be what I experienced. So I didn't experience the amount of abuse that Jason says. There's a lot of claims coming out of the stories of people whose stories Jason's using ended up ends up being that these people did not relate with that story anymore. So there's there's so much confusion, so which is why I've said no to many interviews on the topic. But my personal vision, as I've put I've put on the on my Instagram as well, that my own accounts, it was it as abusive as it makes it sound. But again, the other layer to it is I was coming from much more abusive kitchens. So again, me telling it wasn't abusive doesn't mean there was nothing happening. There were a lot of signs of what Jason says. A lot of people writing on egos, people writing on a lot of attitude, a lot of bad energy, not possibly the best sort of language. But at the same time, for me, it was a place that if I just see my personal story of how it went, I had to leave it at the end of almost completing a year in Noma. And I had to leave because there was immigration problems all over Denmark and especially as somebody who's a third country national who's not European. In my case, I'm from India. Ukraine, what happened in 2022? And Denmark suddenly started prioritizing and all European countries honestly started prioritizing Ukrainian asylum seekers, refugees or immigrants. So all of our like the non Europeans, their visas went on hold. So there was no, there was a lot of uncertainty. So I said this to to to Renee Thomas, the administration, Kenneth, the head chef at the time, and they said, you know what, we are going to go to Japan. That was the reality at that point. They were moving to Japan in 2023. The restaurant was supposed to be shut as we see it is not right now. So they said, actually, it won't be worth the risk if you just risk being here right now and you suddenly end up not getting the residence permit, which I was in process of. So I said, you know what, maybe you should see other options. And I said, OK, going back to Spain makes the most sense. So they went out of the way and they paid me two months of salaries saying that, you know, you're figuring out yourself. You're not working with us right now. That's OK. You can go back, see what's left for you in Spain. And I'm honestly very thankful that I made that move, which is why I am where I am today. But they supported me financially, which was not asked for, not required. The other layer to this is this was happening at the same time as Financial Times article came out in 2022. So was that because they had good intentions? Was that because they were scared of more things coming out if they don't do these measures that they were doing with me? So again, there's so many layers to it. Honestly, Jeff, that I feel my personal account to be very specific was not the kind of abuse that you're seeing on Instagram. And it has positively affected my my career. Even today, when I walk into kitchens working at Heinz, which has nothing to do with fine dining, even there, I feel the things I'm applying in today's world of what I work in R&D is a lot of learning coming from environments like Noma and Margaret's where we did a lot of research, but at a lot of cost at a lot of different timelines, different scales. So that experience has helped me to be where I am today. So it feels unfair to say that the abuse was the only part of it that I've carried forward. I hope I hope that answers your question. No, no, no, it does because it's always interesting to hear someone that's that's in it, right? Because there's always, you know, there's always three sides of the story, right? There's so aside your side and then the truth. But the truth is each individual accounts of the truth. You know what I mean? Because even if somebody sees something as abusive or a little rough, others might find that as motivating, right? Yeah, to a level of like, I need someone almost military style, right? Get your get your ass kicked, you know, get you in shape, get you ready. And others maybe aren't cut out for that. So again, not that anything's right or wrong. I just I really wanted to hear what your kind of perspective was on with your time there. And it's it's great that you clarified that, that, you know, you actually came out of it positively. It threw through the whole experience because I never went through that fine dining experience. I've said it multiple times. That wasn't my upbringing. So it's always I always have a very high interest with people who lived in that space, did that space for quite some time because I can't relate to it. So I vicariously lived through those that I talked to other chef friends that are in the industry and they're like, yeah, it was this way. It was that way. I tried to assemble it and piece it together in my own way. I came from more of like where you're at now, not so much of doing R&D, but in the corporate world side of things. And obviously we're going to we're going to dig into that and how you how you got there. You know, maybe let's backtrack how you, you know, you're you're in the Netherlands now, correct? Yes, that is that's right. Yeah. Yeah. How do you how do you navigate? You know, you went to CIA, you went CIA, correct? No, I don't know. I honestly have not taken any formal education when it comes to culinary arts. Nothing. Oh, I've done hotel management and that's funnily enough what everybody in India, at least when I was growing up, was doing, which was also funny because at that point there was no culinary arts program. This is 2015, 14. And what was there is that I mean, there's of course chefs and there's of course restaurants in India. But the thing is that all the good restaurants exist in hotels, which is the complete opposite of Europe. You do not go to for good food to restaurants, which are in hotels. So it's the opposite of how India works. I think it's because the kind of for people who can afford good food, possibly our visitors or travelers were staying in these hotels, these five star properties. So the restaurants are inside that. So you basically, if you want to be a chef, you need to study hotel management because a way a chef works in a standard on restaurant is very different from what hotel chef works like. So that's how that's the only education of culinary I got is from hotel management. Wow, that's interesting because you wanted to do baking and pastry, but realize that that wasn't really your your thing. So how did you practice that or do that and then actually realize, OK, hell no, I don't want to have everything exactly perfect all the time. Yeah, I think I mean, through this program, the thing with hotel management is you of course learn front office, housekeeping, all the layers of hotels. I learn how to do hotel engineering, how the water gets to a certain room, for example, accountancy. But we also had eight hours of culinary plus like four hours of culinary, like the savory side of food. And we also had like four hours of baking pastry and in this initial exposure, because again, Indian education is very much still bent towards the French kind of classical cuisine in the first year. And I already got exposure of what life could look like because I had, of course, faculty who was teaching, who has been in the industry. There were people who had been on all scale of baking, confectionery, pastry in restaurants, pastry, standalone, pastry places. And what I understood very early is that my sort of creativity, which is very chaotic. I think it comes from having ADHD is like you feel you're creative, but you're in all directions at sorts. I felt that it doesn't really match very well with anything. Now is when I actually calculate and think that's what I thought. But in the moment, it felt very uncomfortable. I think I felt this discomfort of having to depend on an oven, having to depend on gadgets and methods and techniques and machines and precision. And I feel I'm not the most precise person, which is why I have had my hands in a lot of carriers and a lot of different kitchens. And I said, the only way I can progress is by capitalizing that chaos rather than going against it. And I feel being in baking and pastry would have been completely going against how I am. So I feel in a hot side of savory kitchen, you can think that you can literally put things in a pot and just keep throwing it in and adjust it to fairly have a good end product. Whereas in baking and pastry, there's very little you can do until you reach a stage where you actually understand how the science behind works and you can make your own chocolates and make your own temperatures and play around. But at that point, starting on, I felt like it's going to be too much of control. And I feel I thrive when there is no control around me. What on the outside looking in with what you're doing as an R&D chef, it almost sounds count. It sounds counterintuitive because you think, OK, R&D things are precise. You're doing this, you're doing that, you're scaling. How does that play into what you do today as an R&D chef? And how do you bridge the gap, right? You're your chef, but there's scientists, there's people who went to school, people who didn't go to school. How does that all work together? Yes, I mean, right now I'm very fresh in this role. I started two months ago as the senior innovation chef at Kraft Heinz. They approached me towards the end, towards the beginning of last year. I was not interested. Then we had some chats and it seemed like it's the right progression. So I'm still very fresh in this role and still navigating currently my day to day for somebody who's listening, because I think many listeners could also wonder, you know, what is a chef doing inside a food company, which makes basically ketchup and a miracle whip and things like that. Lunchables. So my role is I'm the head of everything apart from North America. So how Heinz works is we have an R&D in North America and then we have the rest of the world. So I am the head of tomato ketchup when it comes to it. So right now my job is more into like the ketchup formulation or how ketchup works won't change much. There will be like maybe people want lesser salt, sugar. We have some variants with dietary problems and things like that. But it's more about picturing the like imagining the future of how do people still eat ketchup when they don't eat that many fries as they used to. So things like this, even though it doesn't feel very obvious that a chef would be required in these roles, what you have to think is that all the sources say just picking up Heinz, all the sources that a person eats. Nobody is opening a sachet of sauce and putting them in the mouth. They're eating that with something. So if you think about sauces, for example, nobody's opening the sachet and putting it in their mouth and just drinking the sauce by itself. Whereas if you look at a food company, mostly they're testing these products in isolation. And what the food companies have realized lately is why people like me exist in these companies is because they don't need. I mean, when you ask about like if I do not like precision, if I do not like calculation, why am I inside? So of course, a part of my job is calculating so that what I create can be replicated. So with that part, I have grown affinity and grown into like liking that part of it. But again, they have people who are more into say program when it comes to the sales side of things, the marketing side of things, the microbiology or the physical chemical part of it, how a texture can be measured on a texturometer. So they have people on the side of things. What they need me is kind of to push those boundaries of like imagining, okay, burger fries, ketchup. I think it's only because of people like me and there are those like me who are in the team. We have 10 people in the in the culinary team. It's people like us who push the boundary of where this product can go. And that's how my character comes inside. I feel they are kind of capitalizing this hedonist culinary view that comes from fine dining. And actually before this role, the four years I was with Buzz Culinary Center, that was a different role altogether because there I was. Doing, say the first ideation version of these food companies, I was working for like Joe Adan or like old El Paso, all these food companies creating the future scenarios from them. So what could snacking look like in 10 years? So reports like this food companies used to kind of program. Okay, if these chefs think this is where snacking is going to go because fine dining sets the paradigm for a lot of things we see in consumer goods. So that is where they needed me. So again, for documenting or the side of things that chefs don't like much, which is documenting or recording what they're doing so it can be replicated. We had people for that. We had sensory scientists. So when I was last year, I was traveling Jamaica, Korea, India, Mexico and Nigeria and China, tracking what spicy food is. So again, as a chef, I'm the right person to judge how Mexican spicy is different from Indian spicy because I was bought in India and because I understand how Mexican food works. I see the steps, but they still need somebody who can boil this down into terms which are not ambiguous, which are not very specific to person. So they had a sensory scientist tracking this down. And that's how I feel these environments balance this energy of a chef and a scientist. Oh, that's super cool. You know, many people are stepping away from the past, you know, and viewing that as a loss of identity. You know, how, how is your personal definition of what it means to be a chef change since you started working in food innovation? So honestly, when I ended up like actually, a podcast name is fell into food and I feel I'm my story of every transition has been falling into it. Honestly, from starting off at the first restaurant I ever worked at in Europe, it's called Noor. I wrote this guy. It's I mean, honestly, if anybody was listening, look this restaurant up. It's one of the few three Michelin star restaurants started when I was back there 27. It was a one Michelin star place seven months open. And he does food from when Spain or Cordoba, specifically the south of Spain was a part of the Arab Empire. So he cooks without tomato, without chilies, without corn, without garlic, all the things that Columbus bought with him is not in his cuisine. So actually, what I'm saying is that I wrote to him that, hey, I want to be I'm doing a research about ancient cuisines. Could you write me a letter for my for my research? He didn't understand an English email and said, you know what, if you want to come intern with me, you can come intern. So that's how I fell into that job. And then your question about like how, how did I end up into this? Yeah, this this field and how does being a chef feel inside these environments? I honestly, when I was looking off like what next after normal, and I had to leave normal because of this immigration issues, I said, I was like, OK, I can either go back to working at kitchens. Of course, there are more kitchens where I could learn, keep learning and and keep going with that. But I said it's actually a good moment because I do not really know what I want to do right now. I have this two months of salary, these guys are going to pay. So what else can I do if I don't want to work in a restaurant setup? So I wanted to push myself out of it. But I honestly missed examples. I did not know. I mean, in my head, I think when I look six, seven years back now, I had no idea that there are chefs inside catering, there are chefs inside airlines. Like, like subconsciously, you know, there's some people behind this, but you don't really think in these packaged foods or people studying about ethnography or why Thai cuisine is where it is right now. They have chefs working with the government creating a gastro-diplomacy program. So I did not have the vision of these things and which is why I ended up creating a platform called Future of Chefs to kind of track these stories of what are chefs doing when they leave this career of being chef, which is very guest facing. So today for me, I think chef, to your question of like, how do I still feel or do I even feel I'm a chef anymore? If I'm not having clients serving every evening and having their quick feedback of how they find the food. I feel, as on my podcast, Dan Giusti, who's also from the States, he mentioned that, unfortunately, in the industry, what's happening is we give the most value to the people who serve the least people with the most amount of money. And that's what's happening because we are putting fine dining chefs, especially in this place where they decide what a chef is or not. And I feel that's what is causing this problem of imbalance where food companies don't even need to think of employing chefs. I mean, Kraft Heinz and the uni-livers and the big ones that are comfortable position where they can do that. But many food companies don't even look at chefs. They look at food technologies or profiles like those because they feel that's enough and that's got them the flavor. Part covered. If you have a flavor scientist, we have the flavor part covered. If we have a microbiologist, we've got the fermentation part covered. So unfortunately, they don't look at chefs. And that's what I'm trying to push. What I'm trying to push is people like me who are possibly not serving guests, but everybody having a catch up in their in their fridge has me behind that vision of a product. So I feel we need to give more importance and put chefs in these roles because I feel still of these food companies, the chef side of things, the culinary side of things is still the most human side of things, which cannot be replaced by an AI agent or a bot. We are helped by these tools. Yes. But we still need this human side of how flavor can evolve. What is right? What is wrong? This moral compass. And that's why I feel to your question, I feel, yes, I do feel comfortable. It took me time to realize that, OK, this can be a job where I still feel a chef. But I feel at the point where I am right now, I think the contribution of chefs like me is is much higher when you look at scales of consumption of food in general. Man, you put that really well. That term, right? It's it's so overused over. I don't even know how to explain it, right? But when you say that word, the first thing comes to mind is fine dining, white coat. And to your point, they feed the least amount of people that have the most amount of money. And there's so many chefs in this industry. To your point, there's there's R&D. What kind of what you do? There's contract management. That's what I was in managing large teams, feeding lots of people. And to me, that term has always been about leadership more so than just you can cook really good food. Because there are guys that could cook the pants off of what I can do on a regular basis. But that doesn't mean I don't give up that term and say, oh, I'm not a chef anymore. I feel like once you've earned it in the proper way, that that's something you get to keep with you. And not over overuse it. You know, I'd let people you want to call me chef. Great. If you don't, I don't really care. Right. It's not my identity of who I am. That just happens to be a position that I did and I carry it through me. So people understand that because I was one of those guys that thought I needed to go back and get a food science degree. To be honest, I was thinking about, you know, I was working in kitchens and I was like, man, I really want to get to like R&D and the science stuff. I hate to go. I hate to school. I don't like I'm good at I'm good at like the writing the papers just getting stuff. Done. But the physical just like being in a school environment, like, I feel like I'm in a cage to your point. I can't just do what I want to do. So what specific like real world skills did you lean on to prove that you could do these kind of jobs? So I would say first of all, I did feel I mean, I completely relate with this feeling of like knowing that maybe you're not the right person or maybe because many of the times I feel with me and others in the community that I'm mentoring of students or young chefs or transitioning into these jobs. I feel a lot of the times we question ourselves before the employer is the employer knows exactly what they're looking for. They know they're looking for a chef who can apply this food into a certain context or culture or whatever that is. But we start questioning. So that's very normal. I feel first of all to confirm your point. So I did feel that in the first I think the first few years at Baskin Robbins Center, I said before I knew what the job is. So I'm still getting like onboard into the company understanding the terms. I feel a lot of it is language. I think that's one thing which no school can teach you because the language of I mean just yeah the the chronemes they use the words they use or the methodologies they use. I feel first of all, I thought that getting a school or getting a degree because there's most of these companies also have budgets to be able to educate you or give you time to do an online program or You're not go full time into studying, but you can still get kind of first of all I would say people should look at that because most companies can let you study alongside your job. So I looked at those options, but the more and more I started getting into understanding. Okay, what will this program actually teach? It wasn't matching my real reality. So of course there are programs I would just teach you about for technology. So they will teach you what is statistics like how can you kind of calculate a scale of product or how can you check the pH of something or how can you use these machines? But I feel the more I was there and consulting people who have been into this job. So what helped me the most is seeing others who had not gone through the traditional path. So of course at every environment you'll see those who have got the food science part, but luckily at Baskarei Centre, I had good mentors and examples who had not gone through the path. So first of all that confirmed me, okay, maybe I can get by without for now, maybe I'll see in two years if I need this. And ultimately as I kept growing and as I kept seeing the value I bring to the team, I started realizing honestly I do not need the degrees I thought I needed because the way I was working I was in a culinary team which is possibly say let's take an example so people understand. So if we are doing a project which is about taking the waste from say apple juice, taking apple juice waste constructing a dish, a beverage out of it which is a functional beverage. So in all of these parts of the project you would think as a chef you would need to know the food science of the fermentation part or possibly what enzymes have to be used to break down this waste and things like that. Yes, you need that. So but I feel in today's day and age I mean I'm talking about right now, I mean I did this four years ago, but right now even so more. All of this information is available. Believe me you can have all of the information of how to get somewhere easily however scientific that is plus in my job I had a microbiologist so who's a PhD in that. So no point in me doing a food science degree will beat her skills. So why not rather than trying to beat her skills or trying to be able to beat my insecurity more than her skills, why can I not just go with what I know, ask the right questions, the people who are available in these environments and just build upon that and that's what I did and honestly that's worked for me so far. Wow, incredible. And you mentioned the Fugitive Chefs podcast. I, you know that's the space that we're in. Why a podcast for you and why did you pick to choose you know what the topics and the things and the guests that you're talking about. Maybe just talk about your podcast in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So honestly it started as an idea, it was a different name altogether. We were doing one month span, one week Spanish, one week English and it started very chaotic like most things that I've mentioned and the initial idea was only so that I can first of all have conversations with people who are not, who were chefs and today working outside restaurant kitchen. So for me in the beginning it was a very selfish motive to get into these rooms, get to talk with people and as it might as well I mean if I need a reason for that because I was having these mentoring calls with people who I know I knew an R&D chef from Mugheritz who was starting her own consultancy business and I said you know what I'm going to talk to her on a call myself and I said okay there's so much value coming out of this call that I have luckily made the transition. I have found a company which had hunted me, they found me for the job but maybe this could be of value for somebody else. So I said you know what I'm going to start and that actually started with just like buying two mics actually the mic I'm using now four years later. So this mic and I was using my iPhone, I'm still using my iPhone to record it and a few subscriptions on Riverside things like that. So the idea was just to kind of record conversations of people who have made transitions and today where we sit on how a fugitive chef has grown in the past I think in this past year it has grown the most is the format has changed a little bit so we're doing just English right now but we are kind of getting into more specific parts. So for example we had Dan Giusti, Dan Giusti was the head chef of Noma and today runs a company called Brigade which puts chefs inside schools. So these were not the kind of episodes I was doing in the beginning but I have Johnny Drain who used to who started the fermentation lab at Noma and today is running two full-fledged companies running one of the chocolate alternative companies in the UK. We have people like most recently we have Justin Kanna he was working in restaurants like the French Laundry and today he's running program of coaching how chefs can still stay in restaurants but use methods or use his systems where they feel the growth that the restaurant doesn't compensate. We had people like Jade Gross she was working as a head chef at Mugherids goes for a trip to a wine field and says you know this this this couple is retiring from wine business all together she said I mean I know how to design food recipes how different can it be to yeah create wine and today she has a massive vineyard in Rioja sells bottles so it's couriers of people to to just navigate that whenever a chef has a question that whenever somebody working in kitchen there's a question that you know what I'm not growing over here I don't see myself being a chef anymore or possibly for many of them this happens when they are starting a family or some dynamic around the daily routine is changing and they feel that this version of being a chef doesn't fit what I do not want people to do is that think that this is like the only way to be a chef as we discussed before to open these pathways that you can still be a chef and you can still be Pat Clifford who's in the podcast who said to me in in in the episode that one million people open a lace packet every day and he's behind he's the principal R&D of PepsiCo designing these recipes doing this collaboration searching for texture searching for what the Gen Z consumer who's traveling on a train and not eating chips the way we used to eat wants in his chip today or in her chip today so I feel I wanted to highlight these rules and apart from the podcast what we have recently started is a community because one thing is I can show you stories and that is the easy part I mean even though it's a lot of it's nothing none of this monetary it's a lot of investment of my time and resources of course subscriptions and gadgets but the other side is I can show you you can aspire but you can still feel burnt out because you're like okay these guys have done it I can't do it and I do not know why so I started the other layer which is a community where we meet once a month we have a WhatsApp group it's pretty no frills right now and we just discuss questions people have sometimes they want to have a 30 minute chat sometimes we connect them between the people in the community that okay this guy is doing so and so he found this career but he has a master's on his side the other one doesn't have a master's on their side so you know what when you pay a 12,000 euro master's they give you all this these kind of resources and documents and excels and PDFs it takes you nothing to just pass on something specific to somebody else who can't afford that master but wants to know specifically how do enzymes work for example so that's how fugitive chefs is right now I love it with that group what's the biggest what's the single biggest mental block or fear you see chefs struggle with when they decide to leave the restaurant kitchen so lately I'm seeing and yeah because I was inside Baskillery Centre so for those who don't know Baskillery Centre is is is famous as a culinary school but I was working on the R&D side which is a different entity altogether it's called GOA gastronomy open ecosystem and luckily being inside there's R&D chef I did not give lessons to school means to the students very very once in a while I could see the education side of things from the inside and then from the community side of things I have a lot of listeners who are mostly young chefs and the biggest frustration I see or the biggest problem they have right now is specifically the culinary education I feel a lot of them are signing up for early on they realize they don't want to be chefs so maybe you and I get into kitchens in my case I got into kitchens and then later I realize okay this doesn't fit the kind of what I can contribute or my skill set doesn't really complement well with just being in a restaurant but for many of the younger folks right now coming out of schools what's happening is most schools are selling an idea of being a chef which is still very yeah unidirectional is still going into restaurants but a lot of them then sign up to courses which show them that you can be head of R&D in a company or you can start your own you can be an entrepreneur into the food system but the problem that I'm seeing most of these these community members is that they have a very strong course the material these schools are teaching is good some of the times it's outdated the problem is because again schools make an curriculum then they employ teachers to teach them but they miss this loop of feeding them back so feeding back what is changing because it's a very fast-paced environment and the second a drawback I see is a lot of them feel like now they have the skill set but there's no accompaniment into like finding a job or finding just to enter these jobs or how should they approach these companies like as you said do I feel nervousness when I say I'm going to a job and I don't have a food science degree I think it's all about how you frame yourself as well so the schools are not giving them this this kind of yeah I know I don't know how to present themselves or how to go into these these conversations of interviews and not highlight so much of what they not have but highlight what they have so I feel a lot of gap in this yeah between people wanting something the education system selling them something and then they're realizing okay there's no way I'm getting what they sold me but now I have this piece of paper which says I'm a master in food science or whatever that is but how do I now sell myself I feel that's where the massive gap is oh you you totally hit it I felt the same thing when I went to culinary school it was that linear path it's either go find dining go hotel go catering and I don't I like I like deep down I was like I don't I don't think that's what I want to do you know I didn't really know you know when I got into the industry but to your point how do you position yourself because many of the roles that I've had to your point on paper not qualified not even close shouldn't even be remotely near what what you do but it's about those ancillary skills how are your people skills how are your management skills how are your leadership skills the things that they can be taught to a degree I think some people have some of those things just intuitively end them right certain traits that you have and it is a hard way of how do we how do we you know we have these platforms how do we continue to bridge the gap so people chefs not even just people who want to do the cooking side because I have a lot of people and a lot of things that I like to show on this podcast is you know there's a thousand ways to go right you can be you can work for an equipment manufacturer you can be an author you can be a dietitian so there's a lot of routes and I want to be able to explain and show that it's not just a linear path of okay go into a restaurant do your time put in the work become a chef and then you're going to figure it all out because you're not at the end of the day you you learn through the process of of of doing but I guess my ultimate question comes back to then is for those that are thinking about getting into food you have to start somewhere do they just go work in a kitchen do they do the internships that are shorter periods of time so they can get a glimpse of what a piece of industry would be and how do they then present themselves to even if they have nothing that they're 20 years old never worked in a kitchen never done anything with food but they feel like that's the route they want to go where do they even start yeah yeah so I mean I have I have a massive chunk of people who kind of have worked in restaurants but again to your question of people who have not done anything first of all what is your exposure so I think if somebody who's not done anything would not have that much of an exposure to say food already but maybe you're somebody who's seeing the rise of I don't know the software as a restaurant is using today you have a POS software for reservations you have things like air table cover table all these things so maybe that's your exposure maybe you're somebody who's interested in technology of some sorts and you want to work in food because you feel like you understand that world and you like the environment where this is so I feel if you're a fresh slate and if you've not gone through any degree and if you've not even stepped into a kitchen I would say it's a lot about where I am helping people right now is knowing that they're not alone so I feel that is the first factor I think you said about like how do people sell themselves how do they go this and that I feel a lot of that can be worked upon so I am working with people on like mentoring them coaching them and this is again all free of cost just because I feel that is I feel that people who are like I had a call two days ago with a guy from Leo who was in Paul Bukuz restaurant as a commie and he's been there in the same role for six years and he doesn't see growth so for me giving mentoring to this person I cannot principally have having been in similar situation I can't attach money to it so right now I'm doing it in a very personal way because I feel what I've seen with a lot of conversations people is that and I've seen this with two of the cases last month who found an R&D job one of them works in an Ibarra which is a sauce company and the other one is working for Euro pastry which is a frozen pastry company and both of them the only calls I had with them were about confirming to them that what they want is not incorrect first of all because a lot of the people you look upon to as coming out of culinary schools are people who've had it very difficult who've stayed many years in kitchens so their first advice to you will be it is supposed to be like this it is wrong to want to pivot at 21 it's wrong to want to not work in kitchens but work in food at 20 so first confirmation I give them is whatever you want it's not wrong so if you want to say you looked at Anthony Bordain and your your your dream can sound very flimsy that okay I want to travel and cook well there's nothing wrong with it like why do you have to go through the abuse Anthony Bordain went through and write two books and write a column in New York Times and then you get the parts unknown gig and then you get no reservations because that's was his path but I feel like a lot of things I have done in my life have not gone through the classic I did not say stay four years in Noma to be able to say okay I've been in Noma I know exactly the in and out of it and now it's a credible experience I feel if you are directioning your energy right and if you're correctly you know where you want to get I feel that is the bigger part and the second part that accompanies and makes this transition easier is knowing you're not alone so first of all confirming wherever I have this conversation with that what you're wanting is correct there's no problem with it but you'll have to of course work maybe harder if you don't want to spend 20 years in kitchen how do you boil that operational reality down maybe maybe you want to build a software about how can a kitchen work smoother with new laws that chefs can only work eight hours because in Europe you have a punch-and-punch-out system now restaurants are struggling with it so you would say logically that if you want to develop a software solution for it you have to be inside restaurant for 10 years and only then you will relate with the realities of an owner of a chef but why if you're 20 and you have not studied food if you're not studied anything you could be somebody who has an aptitude for business and numbers you get into it put the extra hours take enough interviews of people with 20 years experience multiply that by 100 you have a 2000 year of experience and you can boil that down into software if you have the interest for it so for me the biggest cue to anybody who's starting off is having a clear vision of what you want that can be completely wrong it can completely change in a year but being very honest to yourself what is it that you want because a lot of times we are masking this with like I feel like you're not telling yourself you want to travel and eat like Anthony Baudet did but you're telling yourself oh I want to work in the most pressured most abusive kitchen because you're kind of trapping yourself into the identity of Anthony Baudet at 21 rather than what you want at 21 and I feel that's where this identity and a career which is something very we should be something very practical you do certain amount of hours you get certain amount of money I do not confuse these two things you can have an identity crisis with yourself but do not bring that into your career if your career goals are you want to next year by the end of next year make so much amount of money and this is where your interest lies make those two things match do not clash yourself with okay I cannot I cannot pivot into doing something more technical because technology is what's paying right now and the AI is having a boom but I don't want to be one of those geeks even though I have an aptitude for it I want to belong more to the the cult of being a chef who's working 18 hours a day because that's never gonna fulfill the dream and the vision that you have for yourself but again that's that's my opinion and that's what's worked for me I've never told myself I have to do something because somebody else did it I have more been this person who would rather question why was it that done and I would go completely the opposite way because I feel the only way you can stand out and you can do something different is by not following people who've done certain things what's the eight hour punch in punch out thing in Europe I have not heard of that so so what's happening right now is like already when I was working in Mugher, this was 2021 there was already like a three year leave-away period because people I mean the the industry the government knows that you there is no way chefs and restaurants especially if you're a restaurant owner how do you force a restaurant owner to punch in punch out when they are running a business I mean nobody in in their right mind if they own the business do it but what Europe and the law itself is trying to do is more and more restaurants especially the ones at fine dining where the eyes are even more and they're under a magnifying glass is there is there is a punch in punch out system so just like in my work at Kraft Heinz I enter with the card and I leave with the card there's a complete log of how many hours I've worked same with Bass Colony Center now restaurants are starting to have this place so I have chat with people with people who are mentoring and some of them tell me that yes in France for example you have to check in check out once you start your shift and end your shift but there are people who are being told to okay you now it's now it's already eight hours go check out but you can go upstairs the restaurant is like a house you can do these extra jobs upstairs so there are still people who are trying to find these loopholes in the system but the system itself is improving the governments are improving labor laws are getting tightened Spain right now is a 37.5 hours work system not even a 40 hour week work system so I feel these things are changing but again the consumer who's going to a restaurant wants to sit there and have their drink and stay until one and force the restaurant to push them out so how do you mix these two realities and that's where I see I mean just an idea that I made up with you is an idea maybe somebody who puts as the system prepares restaurants for the system that's coming or like the food waste law came up this year where you'll be taxed for the amount of food you you throw in your bins as food companies so there are people who have been since five years I'm seeing these people I'm consulting with Bass Colony Center who are preparing softwares and preparing calculations there are softwares today where there's a camera which can scan exactly what's going in your bin and kind of reduce the amount of plate waste say if like 10% of your food always comes back is because you're serving a massive portion of you're already always throwing orange peels for example you should make this on the menu so there are people creating these softwares and systems using a lot of AI of course which are kind of hoping and seeing like because through EU laws and through government laws you already have the four or five year of period so they create these technologies so that when the problem comes when the fines are imposed the restaurants already have a system which is plug and play and you're the of course you're leading in the market yourself so I feel things like this for somebody who's young and wants to work with food there is so much room to do things honestly I see examples every day with like the whole micro algae with seaweed with climate change carbon emissions there's so much happening right now that the whole supply chain there's so many kind of these insertion points where you can work in the food system and you don't have to necessarily be a chef and of course if you're a chef if you're somebody who's been 30 years in the business you have even more value to put yourself together with somebody who's passionate to build these things and you can put these two and two together on the table yeah do you just sticking on that topic do you think like when you're working in a kitchen like any other industry if you hear about it like six hours right and usually you're you're you're fried you can really get like six productive hours out of somebody and the rest of it ends up being filler if you put in 10 hours 12 hours do you think as someone in a kitchen that it's valuable that they put in a long day to understand what that hard work is is that just a stigma that we've put in the restaurant and it's the easiest way to not have to hire more people like hey if I have X amount of people and they work really good I can get more out of that one person for you know 12 hours than if I were to hire somebody else you what are your general thoughts on just those long hours in the kitchen yeah I mean I don't think why it should be that difficult I see no reason why I mean I feel like a lot of restaurants actually most of the modern restaurant which are trying to say there are examples of restaurants who wants to be the most sustainable and they want to have they're always aiming for things that a consumer is looking or these Michelin guides and these awards are looking for so say a restaurant wants to be sustainable rather than understanding how the waste system works for example how composting works they would put the the the staff to use that the squeezed almond milk pulp to create an ice cream and put six hours more in rather than understanding how composting works and let them go home so I feel that if you're a restaurant it should be like any other business every business has to apply the law every business has to finish certain amount of hours every business has to show numbers I really do not understand why restaurant cannot do that of course I say this I do not understand but of course I know how the business is how the margins are but I feel we have to be a little more brave I think we have stayed very much under the umbrella that the consumers always write I feel that is changing a lot I feel COVID has shown us that when somebody imposes something on you that in in Barcelona for example the restaurant had to shut at 9 30 had to have six tables everything somehow started falling in place and post COVID is what many restaurants are suffering now because now the daily worker has realized that the system can work without me going and of course there was economic damages and economic problems many restaurants shut but I feel the most creative place for me if I would see one right now would be one where everybody works the hours they're supposed to work the owner himself or herself also works the hours they're supposed to work and I feel there are a lot of formats which respect that of course there are formats which are also respecting that but creating this kind of there are ghost kitchens dark kitchens which is only doing delivery models so of course there are ways that you can still work in food you can still serve good food and and work this way I know of great supper clubs I know of great private caterings open three I mean back in 2018 when I worked for Lestrance with Pascal Barbo I asked him like Pascal Barbo works it's a three-mission-star restaurant with 20 covers and he shut Friday Saturday Sunday we used to work our asses off but just Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and he said I'm at a place which nobody I mean not everyone can afford to say that but he said that if you want to come to eat for me I'm a 20s cover restaurant you will take holiday to come eat for me you will not want to come to eat at my place on your day off so I feel there are those extreme models where you create a product that people will make space for or the other extreme is things like dark I mean these dark dining and the whole ghost kitchens and delivery models where you can create a very profitable business but with respecting the hours I think the disrespect only happens because we have this room for disrespect because we will not we will not I don't know you will not do something stupid if there is if there's a law that you have to have a fire safety clearance nobody will say no I'm going to make restaurants which does not have fire safety clearance why can't we have the eight hour shift or human hours the right pay and respecting the standards as the basic I think if you start from that basic we will question the other things and not question why the younger staff is complaining why the younger staff doesn't want to work the extra hours because we have done it because we've gotten used to this abusing why does all the cost have to come down to the staff side why can't this this cost transfer itself to the consumer side maybe to the purveyor side there are many ways the government taxes there are many things you can you can shift and change and push for rather than pushing your own staff who's making this restaurant exist yeah it always feels does feel like it's the restaurant and the that they end eating all the extra costs when you see a lot of these companies and their profit margins and you see what's coming out and you're just like holy shit like how you made x amount of billions of dollars you you couldn't take a a a 100 million dollar hit and then make things more affordable that then the end consumer because it's more affordable for the consumer they're they're gonna they're gonna buy more they're gonna eat more that's what I don't understand is this the amount of money that is made on that top top level it's just hard to wrap my head around when you see some of those figures and those numbers and why it can't be passed down to the restaurant versus yeah the restaurant always being getting right on I mean there are those cases of course there are those cases which are like abusing this which have become more like this VC model of people funding a restaurant there are like massive massive VCs and private fundings behind the big names and that's where this problem is happening what you're highlighting but also many like I wouldn't say like mom and pop establishments but these chain restaurants so the restaurants which are like a four restaurant establishment which has an HR which has a company behind it many of the times it is because they know that this side of the business can be abused they are really not spending time on optimizing the part that has to be fixed maybe it's the way you are ordering maybe it's the way you are purchasing things maybe you have not thought about the amount of HR person that you have maybe you haven't thought about maybe you do not need that property in that buzzy neighborhood or how can you include you how can you make your menu more inclusive how can you make changes where people want to come in into eat on a Tuesday maybe you have to do things which includes a lot more diet trees maybe there's more room for the new kind of diner which is growing so I think it's it's just because it's so easy to abuse and so easy to normalize that and a staff has to like literally go clock out and come back to work which is completely illegal but that illegal part feels so normal that everything else where we should focus on how to like all these companies spending like marketing budgets now every restaurant has a massive PR budget these days will they go to Instagram and say okay promote my video for five euros lesser or do something you do not make those bargains right like in India for example I tell my mother this thing like now after living back like I think with a lot of Indian kids I think or countries I think Southeast Asia where you can still bargain on the street you will not go to Azara and say you can make this make this t-shirt cheaper but the street vendor who's selling vegetables and and feeding his family with that you want to bargain with that that guy and I think that's the kind of problem we are having in restaurants like why are we not bargaining with the right people the governments the lawmakers these purveyors the multinational companies your electricity provider I mean there are many ways you can save money and cost cut or increase your revenue by using technology rather than abusing the same staff who is being abused and and there's such there's such less everybody's complaining there's not enough talent everybody's complaining nobody wants to work in kitchen but are we questioning why is this happening and how are the how are we trying to win these people back yeah what are your thoughts on tech in the kitchen you brought it up in general you know I feel I feel like that's kind of the way the things are moving in order to bridge some of these gaps when you hear there isn't talent there aren't enough people we've got to bridge the gap somehow so what are your overall thoughts on tech in the kitchen no 100% I mean the last work I did at the Baskin Robbins Center we had a digital digital lab so we had a running kitchen where we tested it off technology which is why I know so I worked with from basic things like an oven provider to creating patented objects where you can have maybe decrease some steps and processes of a restaurant and do something more technological where it's like you have an AI say like an alexa inside a kitchen where your hands are greasy or these small problems where your hands are greasy the oven is ringing who opens the oven so things like this optimizing those so there are those things but I think none of them I felt at any point are replacing people because a lot of people ask me this question that will tech take over our jobs of being a chef I feel we are if if it's gonna happen we are gonna be the last ones and meanwhile that doesn't happen it is definitely making our job easier because I don't know as a food like let me go from the food company side of things like food company side of things to say make with a climate change happening and tomatoes changing every year technically a company making ketchup would make like 2000 runs of recipes to make these little bit salt a little bit vinegar a little bit more sugar because you have to make that run to taste the product but today with AI and technologies you can run these statistics and what an ideal ketchup should look like what you're aiming for and just do two tests instead of 2000 so that's where on food system level these things are happening there's precision fermentation looking for new sources of protein working with the whole cell based agriculture so that's where the high technology is happening at food systems but in restaurant level just from the podcast I've interviewed enough people like one of them Dylan for example is making a making a software which is helping people with allergens so there's a problem with people have allergens or dietary needs or even if it's intolerances they don't go to dine at a certain restaurant because they don't have the trust that maybe these guys won't cater to me well or even if the menu says it's right maybe the chef inside because it's something so human maybe the chef is not respecting and maybe instead of like gluten-free soy sauce they're putting like a normal soy sauce so he what he has done with the software has he has removed the the trust issue so what the consumer is doing is they have an app the app they trust as recommending them the right restaurants and on the other side of this of the back end of this app the chef has the same app as we have to tell them what exactly they have to do to be able to accommodate on their technically same menu how can they accommodate more diners because once you lose an allergen or a person who has like a celiac or somebody who has gluten intolerance you don't only lose that consumer but you're using a whole group maybe if they're celebrating their birthday or a girl's night out you're losing a whole group of people and that's a massive chunk you know so it's it's technologies like these which are not literally helping you create faster but they are helping build this trust I would say so reservation all the whole reservation manuals we were building an app which could help you program so a lot of as you said the cost problems you know like you're a seafood restaurant you you buy certain things say programmed you buy an October the chunk for the so we had and we have a creating an application where you could based on historical data based on how a lot of factors are happening how currently the war is happening so things like this which could change prices of things how could we somehow predict what sort of what sort of consumers will end up in your restaurant this year for Christmas so like eight months in advance what will they order what's going to be trending at that point so is there a new Dubai chocolate gonna drop which is going to be suddenly everybody's going to add pistachio so things like this so programming forecasting future telling with technologically forward models and I think that's the few of them I would say the most leading because I think the technically making a better oven I think your listeners already know about there's a lot of things happening with like oven providers fridge providers there's fridges which can program your purchases or things like that of course you see more off but I wanted to mention examples of things maybe you're not seeing so much off because the idea of the technology is that it's like this human in the loop there is a human who's controlling the loop but it's still very human led but there are technologies which are using this human intellect to multiply themselves and and be presented more places chefs don't worry you're still needed somebody's still got to cook food for now for now but but even then you brought up tomatoes different city in the soil the growing seasons how the weather affects the crop the same thing is in a kitchen there's different humidity levels there's different things going on so you still have to make adjustments even if the recipe is the same you still have to make micro changes on the fly based upon what is going on and I don't think in my opinion right now I don't I don't think AI and robotics is there I don't think it's they would take a lot of information to process instantly to know okay I need to change this one dish to do this yeah I know I mean that's that's very true because I'm actually to your listeners to comfort them even further I would like to say that a few months ago I think this was October last year I was in a table together we were running this opening of a new center we built in San Sebastian with the top chefs you can think of from Gastonakourio to the the Rokas brothers and stuff and they were discussing of the paradigm of 10 years of culinary education what that could be like and one thing that they mentioned which could be I feel I very much believe that could be true is that as the world is changing as the amount of AI news changing every week there's new new news coming out of new moments where we do not need humans so you have I mean in the States you have Vamo and things like that but you don't need the most extreme things like a cab driver you think who could replace a cab driver is being replaced and they actually mentioned very interestingly that maybe it's a very hopeful scenario but it could happen that restaurants or food scenarios or catering institutions or school meals end up being the only places we have human interaction so it won't be that they will replace us but actually because everything else is being replaced and how personalized food is as you mentioned how personalized likings are that we might be ending up being the only source of human interaction for the human race that people go to restaurants maybe it becomes less affordable it already is very less affordable for many many people in the society but I think it becomes the one of the few places where you can still have a human touch still have somebody serving you and the service and hospitality grows even further that's that's what I hope I hope it doesn't become too exclusive but I really hope that people rather than going down on techniques and going down and purchasing new equipments and creating more forms and bubbles floating in the air in restaurants they like double down on the humaness double down on really investing in staff who is happy and who's happy to treat their their their patrons and people who come to the restaurant as other as fellow humans and transfer this human energy because we have to conserve that and we have a very intimate business where you get to is the only thing apart from pharmaceuticals that a human puts inside their body and I think it's a it's something to be respected upon looking at food tech startups alternative food ingredients where do you see the biggest untapped opportunity for transitioning chefs to make a massive impact over the next five years I would say the number one I'm sure that everybody which doesn't need it's like a no-brainer you don't need to know the technology is application I feel a lot of these food companies having traveled like I go three times a year to Japan just to see what is emerging for Japan for example Japanese food companies are very good at creating products they have a very still untapped technology we think we know a lot about fermentation they have so much that they have done for ages and years without using meat for example and a lot of these meat replacements are coming from Japan right now because they had techniques which was being used when they were using the temple cuisine or the food which did not require you could not eat animal products and they had these techniques before and now they're bringing it back but the biggest skill I see a chef can bring on the table first of all if you are from the large majority of English speaker or Spanish speaker whatever language you speak you break the language barrier so you make them more accessible to more people but again a sales rep showing food products or food technology or ovens is never going to have the same impression maybe they could give more numbers maybe they could talk to a general manager that so many ovens in your hotel would optimize it but the real chef to chef connect is only a chef or somebody who's worked in food can do so I would say application is the big way so one is representing a food companies so being the corporate chef or business development or business unit chefs and the second application I would go even further that many of these food companies of technology and new products go to these massive food fairs and all they have is a stand which has a product you have a pamphlet about it and that's all and everybody going through the rounds is like how do you stick out because you're showing me a product you're saying it tastes so and so it it does so and so it maybe is a thickener sometimes it's not even products so if you're selling say a block of no meat products it's easy you can cube that up fry it and give it out to taste and that may be a salesperson can do or the food company can do but many of these products that are coming out are possibly egg replacements to emulsify something better or something that makes a better shine and a croissant when you break it so these things I feel a chef doesn't even need a food science degree the moment you see products like this and the moment you hear the pitch of the company that they want to this is what they want to achieve or this is the market they're going to I think we are very good on the feet coming up with solutions because we do that in restaurants and a pregnant lady walks in and I have oyster on the menu I have to come up with something because this was not announced and I have come up with a solution for the so the whole team doesn't go down so I feel if we bring that learning just to give you one example so everybody focuses just on one example to approach when you want to write this letter to a food company tell them where are you going next which fares are you going to next what are you presenting and for no cost let me tell you how would I present it and believe me they cannot take your recipes they cannot replicate what you want to maybe they give the job to some other chef which is great for the trade at large but most likely they will come back to you and say you know what this sounds cool you live in the city where we are going to go next next month let's let's do this together we'll see how that goes from there I think that's the best entry point a chef can have inside a food company to just boast about how food friendly you are even though you're not very tech friend you don't know too much about the science behind the product but be be the presenters of those products I really I like that I like that a lot what's what kind of finishing up what's kind of your biggest overall advice you could give to somebody uh young culinary and not necessarily that they're going to go into r&d but just overall people who want to get into food because they're passionate about whether it's the people actual cooking uh any piece of this industry what advice you give them would say first of all like as I said in the beginning as well like I think trying to be sincere with yourself goes really a long way it feels like it feels like because most of the people I speak to and it's also not just with people I'm mentoring in the community but also with lists like with with with the guests who are like people who have transitioned years ago and today they are where they are and they're heading food companies or or pitching startups to to we see is I feel a lot of them what they've mentioned to me as well is that being sincere with yourself knowing exactly what is that makes you happy and if it's money it's completely fine if it's growing a product it's completely fine it's completely fine what makes you happy but I feel as long as you keep lying to yourself that my identity is being a chef I have read so and so book I've seen so and so mentor I had so and so teacher who said I can be nothing so I'm going to prove him wrong or her wrong and I'm going to be in the worst environments to to come out to come out better out of them I feel this is not the way to go I think we've been sold this model through babies through movies series the bear things like that we've been sold a model where if you go into abusive environments if you go into things you do not like you'll end up coming out stronger I think that's true for for some people it can be true as well but do you want that because I know enough examples who've not come out of good out of that and they've left food all together gone far from this industry just because of how they were treated so I would say based on how the environment we are in right now based on what we are seeing I feel I could give you a lot of advice is on like very specific as you said don't be focused on our India I could give you like everything is so personal and so there's such a niche of like getting into this pivot but I think the the umbrella advice that could help everybody is being very honest with yourself sit down with a piece of paper today say what do you want at the end of this year what do you want at the end of two years what kind of a future you see for yourself so if you're somebody who says you know I want to live next year in Europe or I want to live in India or I want to travel here or there I want to have this kind of a family I want to do this for my parents for example or I want to yeah I want to be proud of of I want to work in this category maybe you want to work in insect protein whatever that is however wild that reality is or however wild that aspiration is be very true to it do not think that my dream is so and so because it will let me go there you know there's this very famous story I can't remember it correctly but it's like it's a guy who lives on a farm I think and it's somebody who's coming from massive MNC or a corporate and they talk to each other the guy on the farm is like yeah I wake up I go to the farm I work four hours I go back and I spend the rest of the day with my family and the corporate guy is like yeah I go in the morning I work 20 hours and I want to make money and I want to be and I want to have an early retirement at 40 and I want to do this and that and he's like okay but at the end what do you want he's like yeah I want to spend a few hours with my family work for four five hours and he's like yeah exactly what I'm doing so I feel rather than selling yourself a version of where you want to get try to figure out if what you want to get at least the smaller version of it or the version of it that you want right now immediately for you should be very familiar with the version of it that makes you happy at the end it cannot be that unfamiliar and that mismatch and I don't know who has somehow convinced you that going through the wrong paths is going to get you the right place it it makes completely no sense and it comforts to hear I mean I know for myself and I heard this somebody told this to me it comforted me so I hope it comforts people listening that wanting what you want is not wrong but telling yourself you want something else is definitely unfair to yourself wow yeah uh you have to enjoy the journey yeah you know when when you think that you just hit the end uh because a lot of people when you achieve the goal you realize it's not everything you thought it was going to be so if the whole journey sucked the entire way exactly you're you're you're not gonna you're gonna look back and be like oh like I did all that for for this versus maybe you get to the goal but the whole journey there was up and down but you enjoyed the ride then you can look back and say okay well it might let's your point the the journey matched the goal more so than I did the whole journey just to get to the goal but they were so far apart that now that I've hit my goal I'm not happy I'm not who I want to be this isn't what I actually wanted to to achieve so you're your spot on and I love that story I'm gonna look that story up yeah I think you'll find a better version of it and I feel like just adding to what you said I feel this journey can only be fun and I feel that's one thing also like I've I've told a lot of people because I've I still practice it honestly just when I had this job offer from craft hands I did it again every time I had options or choices in life in terms of career specificity but not just career actually in general at life doing anything even if going out this evening or not everything that many a times at least in my case I've been very fortunate I have like very good options so the option like for example last year the option was continue with basketary center it's going very well I'm living in a beautiful city with with with with the surf towns and Sebastian all going to craft thines and other options that I was thinking for myself I think I've never chosen like I've never selected the best option because it's never existed it's always been like something could be good because of these reasons but the other one also looks equally good for the other reasons completely different but it looks good but honestly like really honest and something I apply to myself I've always chosen the option which I do not if I do not choose it I regret the most and that for me has been my north star if I do not take this option it's always very clear you'll always have like many motivations to go many directions but you always have one clear option which if you do not do you'll regret the most and you might go wrong but at least you you were in the driving seat and not being driven by somebody else in the car so I feel that's the other thing I could add to that the journey can only be fun if you are on the driving seat and you're choosing consciously every step you're choosing this is how I want it to look if it goes wrong completely fine because you chose that own it up and and pivot as soon as possible. Yes chef this has been a phenomenal conversation everybody go check out the Fusier of Chef's podcast I've been listening to some episodes phenomenal guests that give some really deep insight of guys that were knee deep in and fine dining that have come out on the other side everything from media companies to software to you name it there's some really awesome guests that are on there so I can't thank you enough for bringing that to light and really digging deep into that segment of the industry so go follow the Fusier of Chef podcast give it a listen I'll put all the other social links to where you can find for Kwan everywhere any other parting words for we for part ways today. No lovely thank you thank you so much for the opportunity Jeff I feel that it's it's nice to have because I'm always on the other side hosting these conversations so it's also nice to sit with the fellow Fusier of Chef and check out yeah I mean I know what goes to the podcast so I think it's lovely the work you're doing and thanks so much for inviting once again. Awesome if you liked this episode please support go to Apple Spotify rate leave a review it always helps out and until next time we'll catch you on the sunny side.