Ep 1329 | The Robertsons Warn What Happens When God Is Removed from Human Rights

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back. We are on our Friday episode unashamed with Hillsdale College. You guys can take these courses for free with us at unashamedforhillsdale.com. We are in colonial America learning about the history of our country. Christian, you made a comment that you noticed my change. When you were walking up, you were more like side profile. It did not look like you. Which is a good thing. Here we go. You look great. You look so good. I'm not usually. My question is, what is it about this chair? Jason's here as well. There's an animosity built in towards you. You got to abuse Zach. I think my delivery is a little nicer than Jason's. That was not meant to be rude or offensive. I just felt like the trim looked good. I was trying to pay you a compliment, but it came out poorly. You commented on it, then you showed us a video. You said it looks just like this guy. You looked a lot like your dad. A little bit like Willie with the long hair and the beard. It would be like if Willie shaved his beard at the barbershop. He ended up having like four tins. That would not be a... I think he would be very disappointed that he shaved his beard. There was a time that could have happened in real life. I'll be honest. I was quite a bit heavier just a couple of years ago. People asked me along the way, why do you have a beard now? You used to be the beardless brother. I would always say, you know I've gained a pound or two since the show. I'm not sure how many tins are underneath there. That was my line. It was so true. I've seen the look before. What's the longest you've grown your beard? This stretch, which started right around the end of the show. I've grown my beard for almost ten years. I almost shaved it. I did like Zach. I took it down super low when I got to my go away. I looked at it and it didn't quite all the way. It was a little shorter than yours. I looked at the face and I thought, nope. It's got to stay now. Things happen from 50 to 60 to a man's face that no one really needs to see. Just keep the beards. That's the almighty put it there. I'm not sure what you're going to do today in Zach did too. Zach, yours does look good. I don't think you would be. We can see your chin. I don't think you have to worry about that. I should have put a wedding this weekend. I'd already shaved the beard down. I wanted Jill to take, you need to trim your beard up. It's getting nasty. I think she said it looked like a walrus. That's what was her exact line. I started working on it. You know you did that. I started working on it and then all of a sudden you're like, uh-oh. And you're just like, I'm taking it off. And then I showed up at the wedding and my brother-in-law was cooking for some friends of ours. He got married and he said, I'm trying to think of the line. He said, it's something about me losing my chin. He said, oh yeah, I noticed you lost your chin. So he says I have no chin. Like once you shave the beard, it just cuts it off. Which is true. It's a shocking difference if you've been growing a big beard and you take it off. It makes you feel very vulnerable. Well, Jace, you know, shaved his at the end of the show to raise money for Miyamu. So he had noble causes. But it was so jarring that, I mean, because he had not shaved for many years. And so then all of a sudden it just, so it was just, all we could do was laugh. His face goes from this and it like just shrinks the face. Right, exactly. He had like such a tan line like straight above where his beard was. Like his chin was so pale white. He looked like an actor, but I can't remember what the actor played him. But we were all just, of course, you know, and everybody just savages him, you know, which is willy lead among them. And so it was not good. And then Miyamu cried. Because she had never seen him without a beard. Like her whole life. And so it was a disaster. He did raise some money, but he will never do it again. My wife was the one that did the haircut. Oh, really? Yeah, Jill did the haircut and the beard. So they were like, it was like a big reveal. So he, so Jill, because Jill was kind of a barber. I mean, she did, she was a barber, but never really did anything with it. But I wouldn't let it cut my hair. I'll tell you that. The only one that claimed to like it was Missy, but apparently, Jase just knew. She was being nice. She's been a good wife. He hasn't shaved it since then. He has never shaved it. And it shouldn't. It's just some things need to be covered up. Well, we got, so we're in the colonial American wars. Speaking of beards. The colonials. Our friends at Hillsdale College, they have a new documentary coming out. The theaters, it's called Revolutionary America, narrated by Tom Selleigh. Not a beard man, but certainly. Why does he have a beard now? I think recently I saw him with a beard, but he's known to me for his mustache. What a stash. Mustaches worth five beards. The young guys on set can't appreciate his act, but those of us who were around with the moustaches of the 80s realize that Tom Selleigh is awesome. He does have a little beard now. A little chin beard, but his mustache is still as strong as ever. Well, the film, it feels like the next chapter of what we're doing here, the colonial America course, I think it's timely, and we're headed right into the 250th birthday of America. So you can see how ordinary people risked everything for this experiment. And now has become more than an experiment. It's actually the society that we live in. So against all odds, they actually pulled it off and they built something that's lasted 250 years, which is amazing. So with the anniversary coming up, it's a story that we need to understand and it's a story we need to pass on. So this is one of those things you got to see it on the big screen too. It's not going to be the same as watching it later when it comes out on streaming platforms. You want to see this in the theaters. It's only in theaters for a limited time, so you guys can get your tickets at hillstall.edu. And we'll put that also in the show notes. You guys check it out, get your tickets now. I know we're going to go watch it when it comes out. Yeah, I don't really go to movies anymore, but I'm super excited about this. And I feel like just watching the course just with some of the B-roll and stuff they're running, it must be from some of the stuff on the film and it looks spectacular. It looks awesome. Even just watching it on the... There's been two times where there's been like cities on fire and it's been like a drone shot. And I've had the thought of how did they film that back in like the 1600s? But I've realized like it's not actually real. So I've had that thought twice actually. We may have to have that conversation with Christian about Star Trek and Star Wars. How it's really not happening is it looks legit. It looks... Now you have that. Just put an AI bot and it just spits it out for you. But yeah, we're in the part of the course. I really loved where this particular lecture ended, lecture three, because we're morphing now out of kind of the establishment. We did the Puritans. We did the Pilgrims. We talked about Jamestown, the Quakers. And now we're moving into kind of the expansion into other territories and other colonies now. It's getting a little close to home guys. We're moving down into the south where we're all from. Yeah, and I gotta say, Zach, it was interesting of the journey. I guess I didn't realize it as much until I took this class that there was the motivation as we kind of moved south. And you imagine people are coming over and then the people that are coming south and these states are being formed. That there was a lot to me, and this is a general statement, but just me being a southerner. There was a lot more earnest reason to come in the earlier days, I feel like, because of religious liberty and the things. And the idea of just liberty in general. It feels like now it's more motivated by greed and just financial. I thought about even what they said about it being less family and more just single men coming and trying to make their way. And so I realized now, and as Christian and I were talking before we came on air, just kind of the general narrative of the course. And it's kind of pointing forward. I mean, we all know now because we're looking back across history of where we're headed with this, with the Civil War, with some of the more difficult parts of our country's history and slavery, which comes up, of course, in this lecture. So I began to see from just a spiritual perspective, sort of the motivation beginning to change on why people were coming to the New World to begin with. And so I kind of experienced a bit of sadness with that, Zach. I mean, just the idea that you start seeing it get away from an ideal and more then into just some of the same things that have motivated people since humanity began. And a lot of that not so good. I mean, like more of a negative instead of a positive. That was just my general take as we began to look at this, you know, in reality. Yeah, I think for me, when you think about our history, I mean, there are stains in the American history, right? I mean, I think that's a fact. The way I felt about particularly this particular lecture was it was like this. It's like kind of like all of our story, like, like we've got things in us that were like, yep, that was pretty, pretty disgusting what I did there or what happened there. But I was impressed by, I think all of these stories are nuanced. And to see the emergence of really natural law philosophy, for example, that came out of a lot of this broken system. I think it's like that the truth, you know, there's a there's a line that the truth marches on, right? But sometimes we don't march along with the truth or it takes us time to catch up with what the truth is. So there's this thread that kind of runs through the whole thing that that eventually, you know, we're catching on to. But yeah, I mean, at first, you know, Jamestown was the original or first colony in America 1607 in Virginia. One of the things that the was brought up in the lecture is most of the I forgot the actual stats, but it was like one the ratio of men to women in the South was like, I mean, it was like, one to 10. I mean, there's way more men than women. And so you and we Jill and I actually, because of this course, we have been watching a series called Jamestown. And you actually see this in the series where they would the women would come over, you know, later on, they would come over and they were essentially like arranged marriages are all like you kind of purchase a wife kind of thing. And so you kind of see like the early days of of the of what was going on was all men. You can imagine how rowdy that must have got. There was no domestication. And so that's kind of the ethos that's kind of started that the America was started with, particularly in Jamestown and some of these southern colonies. And it's I think that's how they move into some of the indentured servanthood and that type of thing. But eventually you do see natural law emerge, which then becomes the case to abolish slavery later on. Well, and I like that the seeds were there. I like that we said that thread was the word used of that even way back then. And so I wasn't aware of that even very early on. There were mindsets and there were voices that were questioning the idea of how can we how can we be so, you know, forward thinking on liberty. And for everybody and to be here. And yet slavery then became this impractical like it doesn't quite fit the system. And yet it was going on because of economics and all the other drivers that were there. And I thought about even the idea with the kind of strong masculine things that with some of what was happening on the frontier. You understand why that was this way. I mean, it got brutal quick, you know, because there's a lot of fighting going on. There's a lot of death going on, which we'll get into much more in the next lecture. But you can see why you had to have a you had to be really tough to come here and to like tame this place. It was it was a wild, wild place. Well, because there wasn't slavery until the bacon, the bacon rebellion. It wasn't legal. That's right. Yeah, I was kind of confused on the bacon rebellion thing because it talked about like how like slavery became job. Like slavery became dominant after that, but he like burned the governors or he burned the mansion or something. But then he died in the process. So I was kind of confused at how after he died, how that movement continued on. Well, it was more from from what I gathered, Zach and correct me if I'm wrong. It was more of a laws then came in to protect people that had indentured servants as well as slaves so that they wouldn't have something like this happen again. So all of a sudden, once the protections came in, then it became it set the stage for them the legal right to have it. And so as you go forward in time, it came so much that then even there had to be laws written about slaves themselves, you know, and they didn't constitute a whole person. And we just got into to me some crazy stuff, you know, but it was protective, right? Is that not right? Is that how it started? Yeah, I think I mean, according to the lecture, yeah, I think the what you got to think about this. They these guys that first thought, man, we're going to go down here and find gold or all these other precious metals, and they didn't. And so then it was an adaptation. We got to figure out how to make money. So then so they made so then they figured out they make a lot of money off tobacco, you know, rice and some more crops. But then that takes a ton of of labor to pull that off. And so what people would do is they would come over and they would sell themselves and they would say, you know, come over and you'll own me essentially for five years, seven years. I'll work it. And then after I've finished out my term, then I'm free. And that's how that would pay their way here to the new world. I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily all greed. I think it was just a dream, right? A dream of a life, a dream. And then you see the system is super broken, right? I mean, it's it's it's not. There's a lot of bad in that one. And the fact that the point of this up to with at least with the indentured servanthood, you didn't even have the like they didn't even care about the health of the of the the serving because they're like set five years. They're gone anyway. So they actually in some respects, you know, they didn't they they they didn't even have a financial interest in it. So then the slavery kind of emerges out of that race based slavery. According to the lecture, almost as like a scapegoat, you know, like it's a scapegoat mechanism where we got we got to have a got to have somebody. So let's just, you know, just to kind of keep the peace out of that revolt that you guys were talking about. And so you see that and you think, man, how horrible is that? But at the same time, is it interesting that the natural law philosophy is emerging, which the natural law philosophy is essentially that there's a law above like it's a natural law. But it's like it's quite called natural law. It's it's what undergirds the declaration of independence that that all men are created equal and endowed by the creator with certain unalienable rights. And so the interesting that that thought kind of emerges at the same time in American history. I also found it interesting that that thought comes in more as a political thought than it does as a religious, you know, teaching. I thought that was that's a very interesting thing to think about. And if you guys pick up on that or not. Yeah, for sure. And I think that because, you know, you think about the Bible, I thought about one of the one of the oldest stories about indentured servitude is is the story of Joseph. And it was an interesting story because again, this wasn't initially it wasn't even by his own will, but it was the will of his brothers. But it was also a salvation mechanism for him because they were going to kill him. And then he winds up, you know, indentured to, you know, Potiphar in Egypt. And that was 13 years, you know, he went from a teenager to 30 years old in the system. And of course, it had a lot of pitfalls in it. Obviously, winds up in the no pun intended. Yeah, exactly. No pun intended. It winds up in a pit and in prison. And yet, you know, the hand of God and the Providence and to your point, Zach, the thread was always there with Joseph. And of course, we know he takes the by the power of God, it takes the rise up to be in the second in control of all of Egypt. And of course, his dream does come true that one day his brothers are bound down to him as well as the whole nation then that is born. And so which creates our whole narrative of the Jewish people and, you know, eventually Christ. So it is interesting that even from a historical biblical perspective, you see some of these things that are there, Zach. So there is always a religious thread to everything we do because I think that was where we started, even with this course. But at the same time, you're right. Then we find out later that we could build a nation of laws and leadership and political leadership on this concept of natural law, which I think is there. That's why I love it's called nature and liberty. When I first saw that, I was thinking nature and sense of, you know, how rough it was nature, but it's really our nature that does it. Well, when should I be sure and sign up and take the course with us for free at UnashamedforHillstale.com? Yeah, I don't want to get too distracted. I mean, I think there's limitations of natural law that we could certainly talk about. But think about it because if you're listening to anything, what do they talk about natural law? One of the probably, I would argue, most influential philosophers in Western civilization would be John Locke. And so we actually talked about John Locke in another Unashamed episode, even ironically, how much he influenced our own faith tradition. We talked about the way we interpret the Bible or the way we grew up interpreting the Bible was heavily influenced by Locke. And in the particular denomination we grew up in, John Locke wrote a book called A Treatise of Two Governments. And he was very influential in Western civilization. Philosophers like Thomas Jefferson in America and then philosophers like Jean-Jacques Rousseau that really instigated the French Revolution. These were all students of Locke. They had read his work. And essentially what Locke was getting at was that you can't centralize power in the monarchy. There has to be some other non-arbitrary anchor to why we actually have any case for liberty or freedom whatsoever. And one of the guys I've read a lot is a guy named Francis Schaefer. He actually wrote a book about this called, gosh, I can't remember the name of it now, The Christian Manifesto. And he argues in that book that Locke actually went to Scotland and he met this Presbyterian minister. This is debatable, but his point was that he met this Presbyterian minister named Samuel Rutherford. And Samuel Rutherford wrote a book called Lex Rex. And what that means in Latin is that the law is king. So if you go back to think about the monarchy, that's not the way a kingdom works with a monarchy. It's not that the law is king. It's the opposite, right? The king is law. Whatever the king says, that's what you do. So if the king says, it's like that whole thing, the emperor has no clothes. If the king says it, you do it. It's his rule and then he makes the law. And so what Rutherford was arguing, based on the Bible coming out of the Reformation movement, going back to the pilgrims we talked about earlier, coming out of the Reformation movement. He was a Presbyterian. He was a Calvinist. He was arguing that there's a law above the king to which all men are beholden. And so Schaefer argues that Locke went to Scotland and somehow interacted with Rutherford's work, and then he secularized it and wrote Treatise of Two Governments. And then that became kind of a dominant anchor for political theory in the West. And so whether that's true or not, I don't know, but you certainly see that it is the thought is emerging. There's got to be a non-arbitrary anchor to why we're doing what we're doing. And in the case of the American experiment, it first emerges because of what? Money. They didn't want taxation without representation or without consent on the grounds that all men possess particular natural rights. And so it all started with money, but it's funny how that argument starts to take hold. Started in greed, but ends up kind of having just permeating in tires, the way we see the world. I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to ask, and I was like, this might be a dumb question. Because you've talked about Jamestown, and I think I said it was like 108 people or something like that came over, then I think 30 something ended up making it through that first winter. We talked about Jamestown and the men who just wanted to get rich and kind of different from the families up in New England, and then moving down to Virginia with a tobacco. I'm kind of confused on the currency, on the money side of things. It's like if you sail over and you have this new place and there's Indians, there's no, it's just land. How do you develop monetization and currency? How do you purchase stuff if you just sail here and there's nothing here? I was kind of confused on how they wanted to get rich for what? Cost of goods, how do you attribute that? I think most of it was much of what you see today. First of all, they were still under British rule, so the money would have still been whatever the crown was putting out, I'm assuming. Who would they pay that to to get materials and stuff? You got to remember that everything is going from here by ship back across, and so the monetization is happening from Europe. That's where the money is coming from. But when they get the cash here, who are they paying? They're paying someone to build stuff and do things that way? Yeah, they're doing just like you see today. They build a business, you're making money, you have employees. Of course, a lot of it was done through these indentured servants, as we mentioned, but that wasn't all of it. It was interesting when they said, when they gave the numbers at one point, that it had grown from, I don't know how many years it was, but from like 250,000 to 2.5 million, with half a million of those being indentured servants or slaves. You see a huge part of the workforce was that. But even they were getting paid at some point, especially the indentured servants, and they had a series of years and then they were gone. So it was much like it was at acres. You had the building of business. It was a collection. Yeah, British Pound. I figured it was like it was today, but I just was like, if I went to some random island and there's no one there, and I get governors though, you had a magistrate. But even in 1607, when James Stain was founded? Wealth didn't equal a dollar amount necessarily. It's not like you would get paid by the hour. You might work a year and never get paid, but the promise of the eventual, your percentage of the eventual merchant or something. Or your freedom. It's going to come in. Or you could be a, or it can house you. Yeah, you get housing. You get food. You get like your reputation in that space also contributed to your wealth, if that makes sense. So when they're trying to get rich in 1607, the money's coming from England until it starts getting printed here? Yeah, well, it's like there wasn't actual, I mean, there was some money, but it wasn't like you're watching your dollar bills get bigger here. Yeah, so it's like a bank and all that. Eventually, but there were banks in England. So you would have your money, your banks in England, or you would have people or your family estates or whatever, like going back to England and growing. And I would guess that the closer you were to the frontier, the more you did business, because you're talking with the Native Americans and the people there. I'm sure there's a lot of bartering going on with, in terms of supplies and things you can provide me. I mean, even on the taxation. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm sure they're like, hey, take 100 pounds of tobacco. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the taxes weren't, when they say taxes, it's not money. It's like, yeah, I mean, small enough to really kind of, I mean, I'm sure it was complicated, but it's small enough to where they managed it. But you can imagine you're working your butt off. And it's so funny that like now we don't even realize we're paying taxes. Most people, they're like, I mean, they look at their paycheck. I mean, if you had to actually write a check to the federal government, if people had to actually do that, instead of like withholding it, if we just thought we're going to get rid of withholding taxes, that you can't withhold taxes, you have to pay taxes. I'm telling you, we've had the same revolt today because people don't realize it. They're like, man, they're not looking, but you got to write that check. It's one of the things that I got way more conservative when I started my own business. Self-employment will do that for you. What is that? Because if you're a W-2 employee and you're getting your paycheck, you're not processing, not thinking about it. But when you got to sit down and you got to write that check and you got to put that in the mail and send that to the government, even worse, if you had like a bunch of tobacco, you'd been working so hard, you've been in that field every single day, and then some guy rolls up with a wagon and says, yeah, we're going to take 25% of that. Yeah, load up half of this. I don't care who you are. That's going to like not sit well. So you kind of think, because you're so directly tied to the land, you're tied to the product, and then someone's just coming up and saying that we're going to take this without your consent. And yeah, so you can imagine that the argument that starts to emerge out of that becomes a very heated debate. And actually, by the way, too, even early on, there were abolitionists that said, hey, well, hold on. This actually, if this applies to taxation without consent, how does this not apply to the human race when in terms of you can't own another person? Right? So the movement's already there. The argument's already there, and it starts to take hold. And it's one of the reasons why when people try to diminish the founding of America, and they'll make an argument that so-and-so had slaves. I'm like, yeah, but like Thomas Jefferson, for example, yeah, that was sinful. But the argument that he said was still right, right? I mean, you can't take away from the argument, and you can't, because here's what will happen if you erode the argument of natural law and natural rights based on the person who said it, then you actually will end up destroying the very thing you're trying to protect, which is freedom for all people. And so it's the argument that you have to focus in on that's emerging here despite sinful man. Right? Sinful man. Sinful man, you know, we're sinful, but that doesn't mean that we can't sinfully and broken, what's the word? We can still respond to God's revelation and articulate it even though we may not fully embody it yet. You know what I mean? Yeah, because the people making that argument is accurate, sinful men and women as well. I mean, we all are. The people we read about in the Bible, there was a nod to Abraham. You remember, I think it was in this lecture, or the next one, where they talked about... Abraham and arms? Yeah, I'll save that then. But the idea is that, yeah, even biblical people that we look at, I mean, they're sinful people. I mean, we all make mistakes. And so, yeah, to somehow say that we can't evolve and grow, that becomes the question to me. I did find it interesting that there's a lot in here about states and how they each kind of, even from the early days, had a mindset of their own as a part of the United States. And so, I found this kind of fascinating that, you know, because they talked about Maryland being more just for, like, Catholic rites of freedom. And so, that became their mindset. And so, that was their mantra. Whereas you had moved down further south, and the Carolinas and other places, and they all had these different ways. And then even Georgia, who we were talking about on recent podcasts, Zach, but there was a mindset there because that was sort of folks that were kind of sent there almost like a prison, because it was way down south. It was like, we got all the tough people there. All the convicts were down there in Georgia. And so, it is interesting how these mindsets are there, but you fast forward. It hasn't been that much time. And so, states still have sort of a personality, you know, even to this day. And probably because it hadn't been that long. Why don't you sign up and take the course with us for free at UnashamedForHillstale.com. Yeah, I was telling John Luke. I was like, what do you think Lord Baltimore would think if he was just strolling the streets of Baltimore today? Yeah, it's not a safe haven for Catholics. It's not a safe haven for anybody. But it is funny too, because when we think about the founding of America, and we'll talk about freedom of religion, you know, people say that freedom of religion, but when they wrote that, they were talking about something different. Because they're like, as long as you, like, it's funny how, but you're seeing it kind of emerge. First, it's like the pilgrims, you know, and the Puritans. And it's very, very strict. Yeah. But now we're opening up, you know, to, okay, do you confess Jesus is Lord? Okay, now the Catholics are in. There's not saying they're safe. We're just saying that you could, you have the freedom to at least worship how you want to worship, as long as it's Jesus. And then, and of course, that over time, that expands even further out to any religion. But what I found interesting personally on the Georgia Front, you mentioned about the convicts, because my family, we were one of the earliest families on the Dastro site in the state of Georgia. And Oglethorpe was the first governor of Georgia. He founded it almost like as a kind of a philanthropy project. It was kind of like, we're going to build this utopian society for convicts, right? We're going to give them a second chance kind of thing. So these people would all move down to Georgia. My family, that was in 1733. My family came to Georgia the very next year from Salzburg. They call them the Salzburgers or Salzburg Society, and the Dashers, the wise Copans. And they came and Oglethorpe gave them land outside of Savannah in a town called Ebenezer. And they started a Lutheran church there, because they were Lutheran. My family was Lutheran, and they were actually escaping the persecution of the Catholic Church. And so they went and pledged allegiance to the Queen. She sends them to the, or then they, you know, they come to America and say, she, they pledge allegiance to the Queen, they come to America, and that's where they landed. They landed in Charleston and then end up in Georgia. So as I'm reading this or going to this lecture, I was, it was kind of interesting because I've actually done a good bit of research on my own family history. And they ended up there and they started the first orphanage in the state of Georgia, which I think it may be still going to this day. But you could see that there was a lot of what they were attempting to do in the state of Georgia was they were trying to build a utopian society. And so they had this ideal that was out there. And maybe that's why Jayce likes Georgia so much. Maybe so. Yeah. Well, and that's what struck me is that it's interesting because you just gave a bit of history back to 1730 that it hasn't, it hasn't been that long. You know, this is so, such recent history when you look at it perspective wise, because I was thinking about that, you know, I can go back five generations from me to my great, great grandfather, Judge Jephthah Robertson, who was born 1856. And he died in 1913. And I remember my grandmother telling me stories about him. So this is a man that was born right before the Civil War during that era, which is not too long after what we're studying here. Because I mean, these things happen. We're only 250 years old. And so that's what's so prevalent. The mindsets are still there. And when you travel to this day, you go to a state and you start talking to the people that live there. And they have a little different take. We're all Americans. We're all under this umbrella of the United States. But we all have a little different approach. And I think you see that a lot of the political differences when you read about them here, you see that that still, that thread still goes through from today. And it hasn't been that long. I can go back five generations of stories of this man. And then there's even a picture of him. You'd only go back another three or four or five generations and you're right here. We're exactly where you were just talking about. So it is, it is much closer to the surface, I think, than we think about. And it is interesting to study that and kind of see why you think the way you do even to this day. It's not that many generations. No, not that many generations and not that much time for the cultures to develop. I was thinking about the people coming and doing, building the different colonies and kind of having their thing and having their own utopias. That I thought was so interesting to me. And I was thinking about the people coming and doing the different colonies. As I was listening to the first couple episodes and they talked about, you know, there was all kinds of Europeans, you know, the Dutch, the Germans, the French, the Spanish, like, you know, all like everyone was coming over here. It wasn't just English and it even wasn't like mostly English in the beginning. And I was like, why was, why do we still speak English? Like, why was it Britain that became kind of the superpower over here and then the colonies developed to be English? And it says it in the, in this episode, it goes into a little bit more in the next episode too, that the French and the Spanish particularly were coming over for the fur trade or the gold and they were searching different areas. So while the French ended up in the north and the Spanish ended up further south. There was an English that really came over, or these groups of English who really came over to build something new. Yeah, like they were, and it wasn't just like, like their mindset, it doesn't seem to be, was to colonize in the sense of like take over the land. Like I'm sure the kings and the queens and the superpowers at the time were like, yeah, we're taking over this land. But the individual settlers were, were coming over because they were dissatisfied with where they were. And they thought like, we can build something better. Yeah. We can build something better in Baltimore or Georgia or James or wherever. And, you know, you can probably make a chart of good ideals or just bad ideals, but they all did have their ideals and these different things that they wanted. To create once they got here. That's a great point. And, and because think about it, we're talking about going all the way back again, biblical history. The Israel wanted a king almost immediately when they became a people and they were the people of God and he was like, I'll be your king. And they're like, no, we want our own king. And so you see that in Jewish history. Well, that mindset has been along the whole time. Everybody was under that king and the aristocracy and all that. And you're right. The unique thing about the people that were coming here and they were doing it in the boats on the way over was the idea of self-governance that we won't have a king. We'll, we'll, we'll lead ourselves. We'll, we'll elect our own people. I think that's what drew them. I think that's what drew. And particularly in the South too, you know, one of the, you think about what's the DNA of the Southern colonies. What was the term salutary neglect? Neglect. Right. And the idea that, that there wasn't a ton of governance and regulation over these Southern colonies are kind of like, yeah, you guys go, go at it. You know, I mean, it may be that was because they didn't realize the wealth that was in the Southern colonies at first. But whatever the reason that the empire left the Southern colonies to just go do it, go do your thing. And as a result, you did see quite a bit of flourishing in that. Now, that's what's so interesting though, is that the Southern colonies wanted, what they wanted was they wanted, they wanted freedom for themselves. At the same time, they're also, you know, enslaving people. So it's kind of like this weird, you know, they're, they want it over here, but they don't want it for these people. But over time, it is that underlying thought that, that a centralized power, meaning it's all centralized in one person, a king, a king can't dictate to what I'm doing here in the state of Georgia. They can't, a king can't say, go take some of Zach's crop without some kind of representation or some kind of consent. And it was that same argument that then became the argument for, well, why should it be illegal to own a person? Well, because you, because again, you just become a little micro king if you're a slave owner. And so that's why I was looking this up. One of the... Well, you said that, why you look for that? One of my favorite quotes, and because I think this is going to go into what you're about to say, was, I was trying to find it when he says the quote. I want to say he was talking to John Wise, or when he was debating about the taxation, the judge said, like the only thing that you, the only right that you have is not to be sold as a slave. And so he says that line, and then that thought of like, me as an Englishman doesn't have the right to be sold as a slave. Therefore, non-Englishmen can be slaves. And that like, they took it the wrong way. Whereas like the right way to take it is all humans, no human, it should be sold as a slave. But not everybody took it that way. I mean, I was looking at that. Benjamin Lay, I mean, this was 1732. He was protesting this and he was an abolitionist as early as 1732. So the thought was there even at the beginning. I think God's people were like, wait, no, this applies. The whole thread applies. You don't stop here. And it's one of the things that got brought back up in the Lincoln-Douglas debates. One of the things that Lincoln was appealing to was that philosophy from the declaration that will eventually make its way into the Declaration of Independence. So his question was, you know, are they not men? Are they human? Well, you're the other human. Well, then all men are created equal. So he's just looking at if they're men and all men are created equal. Then we have this protection right here in our own Declaration of Independence. And that was one of the key arguments for the abolishment of slavery. Now then you fast forward to the civil rights movement. He said, well, did the argument continue during the civil rights movement? Yeah. If you go read a letter from a Birmingham jail that Martin Luther King Jr. wrote, that was his argument. He was appealing to the Amago Day. He was appealing back to natural law. I think he actually quotes Thomas Aquinas. He does. I mean, Aquinas is the father of natural law or maybe Aristotle too. But Aquinas was huge in our understanding of natural law. And so he's appealing back to the same argument. But then you think about, if you guys, I don't know if you've ever seen a picture of this, but the Memphis sanitation workers strike. And they were protesting. And the signs that they held up, I think it said something like, I am a man. Or am I? Like basically, I'm a human. And if I'm a human, then there's this thing that applies to me that applies to all humans, which is that all men and women are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And so that thought, it emerges and it is the foundation of the American system. Ironically, yes, it came from John Locke, the came from God. But I mean, John Locke was influential in this. But that did not make its way into the French Revolution. That thought, there was no creator like they're in the in Russo's world. John Jacque Russo didn't have that. Jefferson had it in his toolbox. But John Jacque Russo was an atheist. And so when the French had their revolution, it did not end up the same way as the American Revolution. The American Revolution just keeps proceeding in more and more freedom for people. And you start to see that, that just freedom grows in the French Revolution because they didn't anchor the value of humanity in a God who is who is there and who speaks. Who is not silent. They ended up with another form of tyranny, which was essentially, if you've watched Les Mis, you know how the story ends. But it was more brutal than the monarchy ever was. You know, that's true. I love the John Wise quote by a natural right. All men are born free. Government doesn't save your soul, but its job is to protect your body, your rights and your liberty. And that's exactly what it should be, which is why, you know, we're still small government people, Zach, I think to this day. And you mentioned about kind of the Southern mindset. I think that's why it's there through the flaws and through everything is the realization of that is the idea that less is better for us to for freedom to thrive. And so, but that's hard. I mean, today, I mean, we still got like, we just, you know, we just got a little bit of freedom. We just now separate them differently. We say blue states and red states is, but it's the same mindset. Big government, socialism, all the different, you know, kinds of ways and even the world impacting us. Because, you know, we're going to get as we get to the end of this podcast and into the next one, we're into fighting these same old wars with the same old crowns with the same old things. And it just follows us here, you know, and then takes place on this kind of. And so it's just that mindset that kind of just keeps circling around. And so I just tend to look at things from a, you know, biblical worldview, obviously, but I just see that Satan is still, he permeates in so much of these mindsets to keep that trouble start up because he loves death. He loves destruction. He loves distance. I mean, those are the things that he thrives. So this still is a higher power, higher, you know, 30,000 foot view of good versus evil into the process of nation building. So it's all there. It's one of that. There's been a big debate in the last, I don't know, five years about the term Christian nationalism. And people say you're a Christian nationalist. If anyone ever asked me that, I'm like, what do you mean by that? Because it's such a broad term that gets like baggage associated with it. And some of it, I might, well, no, I've heard some definitions. I'm like, absolutely not. I've heard some that I'm like, yeah. One of the definitions that I heard on CNN was a one, and I can't remember her name now, but this is a while back, the woman in the interview, she said, Christian nationalists is anybody who believes that rights come from God and not men. I'm like, well, yeah. I'm there. But yeah, no, I'm in. And so, but this is so interesting because like we want to get away from any foundation of the kind of Judeo-Christian anchor that did start this country, whether you admitted it or not. I mean, that is a fact. It's a brute fact. And even in the church, people want to get away from this. And I'm like, what? Once you remove God as the anchor of all things, then what happens is that man does emerge as the one who determines right, wrong, and the value of life. And the one who gets to determine that is the guy who's got the most power. So it's interesting to me that from a lot of the same friends of mine that would say we got to get away from the young guy to quit talking about God and remove him completely out of the picture when you're talking about politics, because that's Christian nationalism. They're the very same people that are talking about social justice. But I'm like, whoa, your anchor for social justice is that men and women are all made in the image of God. None of us can fully lead this. We can't if we are going to have a cry for justice. Otherwise, who's to say that you can't discriminate against people? You? Your opinion? I mean, there has to be something beyond us that grounds and anchors liberty for all people. And there is there's it's not a something it's a someone who spoke in who spoke us into existence and said, you're made in my image. Yeah, that's it. And we as we said on the other podcast, we're all about no kings except Jesus. He's still he's still the king. So we want you to take the course with us. Obviously, Colonial America, we're going to get into the frontier wars in the in the next podcast. But I want you to take the course Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and come along for the journey. I think you'll love it. Got the big movie coming out as well. So we'll see you next time. Yeah.