The Cult Was Just the Beginning: Part 1

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a left one are involved in an abusive relationship please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Happy dating detectives Monday! Hi Hannah! Hi Mackenzie! Oh do we have a story today? Oh y'all it's crazy. It's a very very interesting topic that we've talked a little bit about on our podcast before but before we get into it I always like to start our episode with gratitude. Thank you so much for being here for supporting the dating detectives. We're coming up on our three-year anniversary by the way. Insane! We're almost out of those terrible twos baby! And if it wasn't for you guys we wouldn't be here so we appreciate all of you who have shared and built this this community and really encouraged and inspired other people and encouraged and inspired us and again we're grateful for the support so just wanted to remind you that we really really appreciate you so thank you thank you for joining the Patreon that really helps us too. Yeah and also when you send your stories today's guest her name is Abby is a great example of someone who she'll open with saying a lot of this story I thought was normal but it's not and I think a lot of you sometimes don't feel ready to share a story or like maybe it's not dating detectives worthy but we are so open to anything even if you don't think it's a clear dogfish story maybe we'll read it on Patreon maybe there is something so important about it that we want to share it so investigate at the dating detectives podcast.com is where you share your stories and today we have a cult story. Trigger warning cult. Religious cult. Mental emotional abuse so just a little things that might that might really that might really hurt or be triggering so just but yeah share that. So we wanted to give you a little preface about the cult that Abby was raised in before we start and there's so many parallels between the way a cult indoctrinates people and the way that dogfish can essentially indoctrinate people and I find that fascinating it's like the same psychological manipulation so I'll just get into a little background on this cult and just jump in Mackenzie as well. Yeah you'll I think a lot of you might have heard of it. Yeah it'll be familiar to you. I hadn't heard of the name but then when she started getting into it I was like oh yeah I know this one so it's she was part of the Institute in Basic Life Principles, IBLP and the most famous way you might recognize it is the show 19 Kids and Counting. The Duggers were also a part of IBLP that's the show where they had like 19 kids and counting. It was on TLC like it was a whole big thing. Right. Long history of IBLP before that so it was founded in the 60s by a man named Bill Gauthard. It's rooted in very strict fundamentalists interpretation of Christianity so basically at its core IBLP it teaches every aspect of your life relationships finances how to dress everything you do has to follow a set of biblical principles. Like a hierarchy. Yes very into hierarchy there's like a clear chain of command. God is over women. Oh I messed it up already. I'm already a bad IBLP drummer. God is over men then men are over women and then parents are over the children so you are very much meant to obey obey. Questioning authority is very discouraged. It's like a moral requirement that you obey and it extends into every single aspect of your life. And she even talks about not only do you have to obey but you have to always appear enthusiastic. That was crazy. It was you can't even show that you're a little bit annoyed or triggered or upset. You have to be enthusiastic at all times. There's no questioning. It's insane and it's like shutting down your humanity. Yeah and now we're progressing so much as humans and as women and so it's really interesting to hear this and it's just very modest very obedient very very traditional gender roles over academic subjects. So like school education is very for the men. It's just it goes back so far. They home school a lot and she'll talk about that. They have a program the advanced training institute is what it's called but basically it's just you only learn the religious materials that reinforce the group's teaching. And yeah women are literally just meant to be wives and mothers. You're not encouraged to do anything else. There's been a lot of criticism for IBLP. I thought it was interesting to note the founder stepped down in 2014 because 34 women accused him of sexual harassment and molesting which shouldn't be surprising I don't think. Some of them even said it happened when they were minors but awful. They were sued by some of the alleged victims but then the case was dismissed in 2018 because the statute of limitations had been exceeded. So that's cool. That's interesting how Abby's background in this quote unquote cult plays a huge role in her dogfish experience. Yeah the background I think is important to note and we want you to keep it in mind while she's going through the story because think about growing up that way. Like you're not what most of us are familiar with. She just didn't know her normal. Like it's easy. Yeah she was like kind for this. Oh I would never do that. Like why would she ever do that when you grow up that way and that's all you know that you don't know what you don't know like you only know what you know. This is going to be a two-part episode also. Two-parter and you'll hear just from the ish this intro. It's like a complicated story so two parts are definitely necessary and we're going to get into the cult upbringing a lot in part one before meeting her future husband. You'll want to know this part of her life before you listen to part two and it all comes together and you're going to be like holy crap it's wild. But incredible storyteller Abby was so amazing and again like Hannah said before you think your story is like you know it's not that bad or it's not you know whatever. There are other people who are going to be like I'm so grateful she told her story so I can't wait for you guys to hear her so let's bring Abby in. Abby thank you so much for being here. Hi. We would like to give you the floor so will you please take us on your journey. Yeah so yes I am calling in because I have a little story. So I grew up in a very strict evangelical home. It was very cult like actually I would say it was a cult. If you've heard of IBLP or Bill Gothard that is what I grew up with. Elaborate for those who maybe have not heard of that. Yeah my best example is the Duggar family if you've heard of them. Yes they were like the poster child family for this cult so it was IBLP. How many kids did they have? They had 19. 19 kids and counting right was that their show? Yeah yeah exactly. I'm one of seven children so my parents also believed in the procreate and multiply and all that jazz. A little bit of background my parents' origins are very Catholic but both parents individually converted to evangelicalism separately and then they met when my dad was 29 and my mom was 19 at Bible school and they were married within a year so that's a very large age gap at a very young age so not a great start. When my mom converted she was very much rejected from her family of origin and became very isolated very quickly because they didn't agree with her choice. That was kind of the start. My dad was an only child and so they got married within a year, had their first child within a year and proceeded to have seven more over the next 20 years. So your parents are married she's young just popping out babies. They have children immediately and very religious right away my dad ends up being a pastor and we move around a lot. And that was just because he was moving from different jobs or- Yeah he was very big on going where God led him which yeah so that was his deciding factor. It was not his family it was where God led him and God led him to not having a home for his children very often and moving around a lot and putting us into very isolating places. So what does that mean like when you were moving were you just drifting? So a lot of it I don't remember the first three years of my life because I was a baby. I'll allow it. The first three years we moved around a lot we did not have a home so we were just like just staying in church basements or people's houses who would let us and then when I was three God called him to a pastor job that was very very remote like the highway the roads ended in that town and you could only get further by ice roads or train or plane. Oh wow okay like the highway ended there. Talk about isolation yeah. Yeah so we were very far away from everything we were 13 hours away from any relatives we knew nobody in that area and we are a french canadian family so they moved us here and it was fully english so nobody could really communicate all that well. Oh that's so hard. That's what I mean by isolation. But you're three? I was three when this happened so at three is really when my parents got into the cult it's when we moved to this remote small little town where we didn't speak the language. So yeah there's just a very strong isolation on a lot of fronts there. 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So the structure of this cult, IBLP, which means Institute of Basic Life Principles, it's very high control and it's very hierarchical so they have like a picture and it's an umbrella so the first umbrella is God and then it goes to the church, the husband, the wife and children. So women and children being at the bottom are treated as more of a possession than individuals. They're not really anything special. They're kind of just raised to go on their children. Yeah. So as the husband, my dad had absolute authority. Like his word was everything. There was no questioning it. There was no there was no pushback. There was no room for any thoughts or feelings or emotions or anything that went contrary to what he believed, which was what the Bill Gothard, the cult leader, taught and seeing as he was the pastor also of our church, we got all of those teachings on Sundays and then every day morning and evening he had hour-long sermons that he would have just for us kids and we would be sitting at the table and not allowed to leave until he was done talking and saying whatever he wanted to say. Wow. And any sign of not being happy being there, being upset that you had to sit and listen and all of that was met with a lot of anger and punishment. There was no room for... You had to be enthusiastic. Yeah. So a big thing in that environment was called a joyful countenance. So your face and eyes had to look like you were happy and joyful at all times. Like any... I just like perked up trying to force it on myself. I'm like any outward expression of negative emotion was just bad. It was sin, anger and bitterness were at all times. Any emotions that were negative like angerness, bitterness, that type of stuff, it was called sin and they also taught that it was the root of health issues. So like... Oh my gosh. If you had bitterness in your heart, that's what caused your cancer. It was your fault for not being a good enough Christian if you end up with a health issue. So that was the environment in the household of just no space for any emotion other than compliance and joy. I mastered being able to just have a neutral face because I could get away with that too. So that was a very solid mask I had for quite a long time. Wow. Yeah. Abby. Yeah. Starting real strong. And with that environment, we were also homeschooled. It was absolutely required in this cult. Women were not allowed to work. That was one of the contracts that they signed that the man signed for the woman and they had to homeschool. That was also a requirement and they had an actual homeschooling program, which was woefully inadequate. My parents were terrified of CPS coming to get us. So my mom did make sure that we were hitting the requirements that the public school system required. Right. Luckily, I got that. Good. But yeah, so there was a lot of requirements. We were having to listen to these sermons twice a day. We had to do the cult curriculum every day. And that was a few hours. Again, mostly my dad talking. And then I also had to do all of the schoolwork to meet the provincial guidelines. Yeah. Yeah. So there was a lot put on our time and required of us and 80% was considered a failing grade. So anything under that, I had to start over. So even at 80, I was getting yelled at and told that I had to look at it again and restart and get a better grade. And if I got 90 is like, well, where's the other 10% Never good enough. No, never good enough. So that was a very strict requirement placed on me. On all of us. And at the same time, as I got older, and I got interested in furthering my education and everything, then it wasn't a priority anymore. Then it's a waste of time. It's a waste of money. Because women don't need an education. They're just gonna get married and have babies. So any education beyond what the province required was not necessary, not necessary and actually frowned upon for me, for a woman, for my brother's different story, it was encouraged for them. Interesting. Very bizarre, just completely being taught that you have to be dependent and submissive. And I was raised to obey. That was what was safe. I learned very quickly that questioning was not safe. And it was just going to lead to punishment and being rejected and feeling alone. Which was already, it was already a very lonely existence. So I can imagine it was, it was in my best interest to not push back so that I wasn't rejected or into loan even more. So that was kind of the growing up environment. And so you didn't get cancer. Oh my god, you must have been so scared all the time. Yeah, there was moments where I would pull away from everybody and go sit in my closet and cry and wish somebody would come and find me and care enough to notice. Which, like you know at that point something's wrong. Yeah. Yeah, that's like even at a young age, you know that I laugh there. That's my coping. I'm sorry. No, we're the same. Oh, no, same. We get it. Yep. I look back now. I can I see little me and I just hurts my heart. Did you find yourself like, what was your motivation at that point? At any point, did you think I want to not be part of this anymore? Or was that not even possible to think? By the last year of high school, I would say there was there was some of that. There was a moment the years are blurry. So it's a little harder. But at some point in high school, probably between like grade 10, grade 12 is kind of where the cultishness of IPLP came out. And kids kind of started to push back like the older ones and who weren't at home. And then I did try to push back a little bit at one point. I even told my little brother that the homeschool curriculum we were doing was not real school, which got me threatened by my parents. They threatened to kick me out. I think I was 14. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. How dare I speak out against the cult? I really like read chef. And you know who else likes green chef? My mom. We love it. It gets us cooking together. And let's just say I didn't inherit cooking skills from her. I don't have any and neither does she. So green chef kind of like does the hard work for us. We just made Moroccan chicken and a kale quinoa bowl, which was so good. It was like very easy to sub in ingredients if we wanted to change certain things. If you're like dairy free, gluten free, they just make it so easy. So you pick what matters to you. 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But at home was still very much not safe. Any, any form of questioning or talking or expressing myself was met with a lot of anger and don't you dare and threats eventually. So that really made it very difficult to be connected to myself and my inner voice. Because the teaching was also like that your heart is deceitful above all things, like you cannot trust yourself. You can't trust what your heart wants, because it's full of sin. And that was very much reinforced and encouraged. So the most I really learned this in my teen years was that being compliant and going along with things and appearing interested in it was my best way to receive acceptance and the best way to earn. Survive and to survive. Yeah. But that's how I learned that I that's how I learned that I could get love because I didn't get that before. Or I didn't like there was no unconditional love. That was not a thing. I had to earn it and being compliant and believing what they believed, recrutating what they said, that was my safest existence. And so I faked it and I learned to fake it really, really, really good. And that really caused a deep internal rift for me where I couldn't feel my own emotions. I couldn't identify them. It was like two separate people living inside my body. One that had to just exist and then one that was the real you. Yeah. And that was that was my entire life, but it was really strong in my teen years into early adulthood. I remember as a child, we would travel a lot for these conferences for the cult. And I would look at the window and I in my mind's eye could just see like this girl riding a horse just running along the side in the fields and just the freedom of it. And I think that was my inner child's like the inner me that entire time that I was watching from the outside. And she was always there, but we were completely disconnected. Sounds really weird to say it that way, but No, I think that makes total sense. Yeah, she was always there. Just we were, we were not one person. So by the time I turned 18, that was how I lived. I just lived as the person that I was supposed to be and not as Abby. But there was no part of you that was like I'm 18 now. Like things could maybe change for me. I started to make plans at that point to I wanted an education. I wanted to continue and have something to go into. I didn't know what I wanted to do. There was all sorts of things. The underlying theme was helping people. I wanted to be someone that helps people. But a really strong thing that was encouraged and allowed was going to Bible school. So I somehow weaseled my way into going to Bible school in Central America. I mean, yeah, why Central America? The year before when I was 17, I went on a mission trip with my dad. Oh, okay. To Costa Rica. So we had gone there together the year before. And so when I was just about done school, I was like, Hey, I want to go to Bible school. I learned I taught myself Spanish that entire year. So in my room by myself taught myself Spanish. So then I told my dad, I'm going to go to Bible school. And he was like, well, why don't you go to a Spanish one? And it was like, okay. And I found one in Costa Rica right away. And I told him and he was like, Oh, well, I guess since I suggested it, I can't say no. Can I? Like, nope. You're like, God is leading me here. Yeah, like he led you everywhere we went. I'm going to Costa Rica for a year. So I left and went there for a year. And that was like, actually getting to be on my own and experience independence for the first time. I skipped church for the first time ever and just went to a fruit market. And I did not get struck down. I did not get struck down by lightning. I was still alive. I did go to church that evening because I felt so guilty. But I started skipping Sunday morning church because it was beautiful there. I didn't want to be in a stuffy church. And then I would go to an evening service. And it was the first time of being like, Oh, I can kind of experience religion in my own way. Like it didn't have to be this. Yes, your own relationship with God. Yeah, it does not have to be structured in the way that I was taught. So this is really cool. Like I'm enjoying this a lot better now. It feels a little more real unless force performative and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there was still some legality happening through the Bible school teachers. I did start to get that pushback from them of me pushing back too much and that joy my liberties too much. Really? No. Yeah. So I went home after a year and my dad at that point is retiring. And so they're moving because this whole time we've lived in that same small town in the church's house. So I go home and they are getting ready to move. My dad is retiring. It's winter time. My mom breaks both her wrists. Oh, no. Why does she break both her wrists? I don't know. I don't remember what happened. And so she's bedridden because she isn't so much pain. Both her wrists are broken. So all that's left at home. Now you're on it. All that's left is home is my dad. Yeah, my dad and my oldest brother and my little brother and my little brother at this point is like 12 or something. Like he's still a baby. So I'm back and within probably two weeks I am in charge of the household. Like I am cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, packing. If I'm not doing it, it's not happening because I am the woman now. So I do that. We move. We go to this other house. It's absolute dump. So I decide, okay, I'm going to university. And the only program that I was able to get into that was acceptable was a bachelor of arts, just like generic one. Because then I could go to teachers college and teachers college at this point is now an acceptable profession because then I can use it to teach my children when I have kids in homeschool them. Okay. So I end up doing a online university. So now I'm living at home. I am doing school full time. I get a job at a call center full time. So now I'm studying full time, working full time, living at home full time, which living at home involves cooking, cleaning, laundry, everything. You're just a woman again now. I am just a woman. I am just there to serve because what else do I have to offer? So I'm exhausted. And I pick up a second job by one day at a church and I'm working there a few times a week. So it's just crazy amounts of driving, all of the work, all of the studying and no rest at home. So I eventually I'm talking to a friend from church, one of the other youth leaders, and she's living in a house that has six rooms and they're all rented out piecemeal. And she's like, Hey, one's opening up. Why don't you move in? So I make the plan, sign the lease, tell my parents, immediate blow up. My dad turns around and starts calling people saying, you have to pray for Abby. She is going through something very serious. And that is his reaction to me wanting to move out at 22. Oh, my God. Getting married. I'm just going out to live by myself. And that's unacceptable. That's crazy. What a crazy idea at 22. Oh boy. Yeah. Yeah, he gets my siblings in on it. So even my brother who had run away from home when he turned 18, he even he's calling me and going like, What are you doing? Why would you do this? So many of my siblings are now turning against me to and attacking me for wanting to move out. And the pressure is just so much that I break my lease and I don't move out. And I still just, I really want to keep that relationship with my parents at that point. So I back off on those plans. Yeah, no matter what, a kid's connection, like you always are wanting their approval and for sure. Such a biological thing to want a parent and to not want to be alone. Yeah. So a few months go by. I don't even know if it was months or weeks, but I'm just like, Holy fuck, I cannot stay here. Like this is killing me. I can't stay in this house and continue to live my life and try to establish myself. So I find a different place to live. I sign the lease, I make my plan. And on New Year's Eve, my whole family is gone. Don't know why I stayed, but my whole family is gone to visit my relatives. And I pack up my car because I had finally got myself a car at that point. And I leave and I move out and I never go back. I never go back to living with my parents. That is, I just, I run away at 22. What did they say? And I don't tell them where I'm living. They came back and they were shocked. I did create distance on purpose initially just to protect myself and to be able to stick to my decision. For a long time, I don't tell them where I live either. I just keep it to myself. So now I'm living on my own for the first time and I'm paying rent and I'm working. And yeah, I am out of the umbrella of protection. So I am vulnerable in the terms of the cults. I am very vulnerable to drug sex and rock and roll. And quite literally, I am very vulnerable because they didn't teach me how to survive by myself. Right. So at that point, I'm living by myself. I don't really know how to have healthy relationships. I don't know how to connect with people. I don't even know how to connect with myself because I am still completely separate from the enemy. But I am really good at pretending to have my shit together. And I get so many praises and accolades for being so good at my job and so good at balancing it all and like, look at you go, you are killing it. You're doing such a good job from the external perspective. While I am most nights going home and crying because I'm so lonely. I'm so alone. I don't know what to do. And then working in a call center, which is not really known for being a great safe space for people in general. I end up getting manipulated by an older man and I'm 22. He's 42. And end up getting assaulted by him. And I don't know how to say no. I was never taught how to say no. And I end up stuck in this like, it's not a relationship, but I'm trapped with him in my life. And I don't know how to get out of it. And it starts to kind of, I don't think, it starts to kind of be known because he's around. I don't know how to say no. I don't know how to get away from him. But your workplace too and you need money. And he's my supervisor. Oh, my gosh. Of course. And my brother finds out about this and he interprets it as a relationship. I am in a relationship with this man. Because he assaulted you. So now you're his and whatever. Oh, my Well, they don't know about the assault. My brother does not know because it's my fault. I'm out of the umbrella of protection. It's my fault that I got assaulted. And I would imagine there's like sex before marriage expectations. Yeah, that's not allowed. That would also be a product. And it would blame you. Yeah. Yeah. That is not allowed. I am broken goods now in my head. I am so disconnected from myself. And I feel even more broken now because I've lost the one thing that had value to offer someone in the future in my mind in how I was raised. So my brother finds out he accuses me of being boy crazy. And I do end up telling my mom that and she's like, well, he's right. So I get blamed and like, I am guilty for this. This is my fault. And then my dad, because at this point, I'm still working at the church. My dad threatens to tell the pastor, he says, if you don't get out of this, I will go tell the pastor about your sin so that you get fired. So you're losing one of the jobs at this point. You're like, yeah. Oh my God. And I still don't know how to get out of it. I still don't know how to get away from this man. And I'm now in being threatened that I have to get away from him. Otherwise, I lose the one job where I do have more of a community at this point, because I am getting to know people. So it still took time. I did eventually get away from him. I still don't like I don't I don't remember how it's like three years that start about there that are just a dark pit where like if I was disconnected before now, I am just swimming in the dark. I am just for sure, alone. Entirely, I have this secret now that the church can never know about. I don't have my family support and they've made that blatantly clear. I do eventually leave that job. So it helps to get away. But this man knows where I live. He knows where I work. He knows what my car looks like. So he's still for quite a long time after continues to like that harass isn't the right word. But like he would send stuff for me to my parents house. He would tie bags to my car door handle that's for me to find when I came back. I did move. So eventually he did not know and it was a building you needed a key to get into. So that created a lot more safety at that point. Abby, like the amount of control that was taken away from you at various stages of the story is just heartbreaking. Like you talking about the disconnect with your own intuition and then the there's such a disconnect that happens when your body is taken from you. Now that's not yours anymore. Like you are just, I mean, I just hate it. I'm with McKenzie. I hate everyone. This is really upsetting. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, oh, I mean, we're upset for you and with you. I know. I know. You put a dollar dollar in the sorry jar. I'm Canadian. There'd be so many dollars in there. Oh man. And as women, we all need a sorry jar. Yes. So I managed to leave that job. I move. So now I'm living in a little bachelor pad by myself. It is the safest I've ever been. But I am also so alone on so many levels from people, from family, from myself. Like it is just a deep, dark pit. And I decide that all I got to do is just throw myself into everything I'm doing. And that should be enough. Like I will make myself enough by what I do. And that becomes my identity. And I would say like I stop living during those three years of just trying to survive after all of that really awful stuff that happened back to back. And if I do stuff, that's how I earn love. That's what I've learned. And that's what I fall back on. So it's now been three years. I am just finishing up my degree still online. I am now working at the church almost full time. At that point, it's my safest environment because I can work from home a lot. If I'm not working from home, I'm at a church and I'm doing all of the church things and that is safe. And this church is associated with the no, it's a non denominational church. So interesting. I don't believe in the cult stuff anymore, but it's still in there. Still in my head. And so I spent a lot of time at home, at a cafe or at church. And that is essentially my life at that point. And I'm getting more involved with church activities and the young adult groups. I go to a survivor's night for young adults, for the church people. And he's new. Survivor like the show. Yeah, like what is survivors thing? The show. So we all go to somebody's basement. Were they having like a support group for survivors? Survivor then. Got it. No, just watching survivor together. Watching survivor. We go to somebody's basement and we have snacks and we watch survivor. And I've been going to this. Yeah, it was fun. I enjoyed it. I'm glad you have community now. Yeah. So I've been going for a while. It's fun. And one night there's someone new and he's charismatic. He's confident. He's just chatting it up and his presence is known in the room. Like he's new, but he is there and you can't miss him. Very opposite to me where I just hide in a corner and people forget that I'm there. So yeah, he is five foot four and he wears cowboy boots and cowboy hat at all times. I am five eight. So just a charismatic short king. I find out he's military. He just moved to the city we live in and he's trying to connect with people. So that's cool. Nothing wrong there. We go to the same church. My job at the church is leading the youth programs and children's programs. So grades one to post secondary. So I'm in charge of getting volunteers and making sure there's people to work these evenings. So a few months after meeting him, he reaches out to me and he goes, Hey, I would like to volunteer. So whenever somebody wants to volunteer, I meet up with them usually at a cafe or something and then we talk and I ask questions and I make sure that they're not a creep because I care about my kids. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for doing that. Yep. So I meet with him and ask the usual questions, but then we just vibe and we talk for like three hours and usually it's like 20 minutes because I'm not a talker. So three hours of just talking about this and that and we have lots of common. We're both from a big family. He's from six kids and I'm seven kids and religious. You got it. And he had some homeschooling in his background and just seemed like a lot of shared commonalities. So and then three hours and like, wow, that's a long time. That's cool. I didn't even realize how short you were. That's a great time. We conversation we just had. I looked right over that. Unindendent. And he had his cowboy hat on. Oh, yes, always. Always. The cowboy hat adds like 12 inches. Oh my God. He's probably six foot two on ten years. I mean, any guy that's like, this is my thing. I'm confident in it. Like, yeah, confidence goes so far. For sure. And when you're somebody that has lost their confidence and like never actually developed it to meet someone who's just so confident and then yes, exactly willing to talk to you and be very connected. Like, that's so cool. And I felt like it's inspiring and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, because it feeds into that little bit of you. That's like, I wish I don't feel out of place all the time. I wish I could connect with people more easily. So of course, it's nice to see that. So we talk and I feel seen and understood and I feel like there's so much compatibility and we start to hang out and talk a lot from there. And so February 2020, we are officially dating. We're always together. He buys me flowers for Valentine's. It's so cute. And I had plans to go and visit my home province. So I invited him along. Like, let's go, like, let's go see somewhere that's important to me together. So we go see my home province and it's so fun. I get to show him places that are special to me because I love this place. And by then, it's March 2020, when all of the COVID lockdown begins. So we have to cut our trip short because the entire world is shutting down. There's nowhere to stay. Everything is closed. Like, we have to go home. And his roommates are like, well, no, you can't come home. What if you brought COVID back? You got to isolate somewhere. So he basically moves into my apartment, my cute little studio that has been my safe space for the last three years. And I go and stay at my parents' house. They have a little, like, room that was my dad's study attached to the garage. So I stayed in there on a cot bed for like a week while he stayed in my apartment. So that was weird. At least I wasn't with my family, but like, even just the proximity, the fact they knew my comings and goings that scraped scabs off of old wounds because that's... I bet it did. Yeah, that didn't feel safe. Did they know about your boyfriend and what did they think of him? By then, they knew and they seemed okay with it at that point. They didn't want us sleeping together, so they didn't mind that I stayed at the house. Right. Mackenzie, we're both obsessed with beauty products, but I do think we can agree there's a lot out there and it's very overwhelming. It really is, but I really do. I like Ocea. So Ocea is, it's something that you reach for when you really, really want something that will transform how your skin looks and feels. And we're specifically excited about their body balm and I feel like there's so much lotion, so many options. You want something that's going to feel consistent and good that you don't have to worry about. And also, I don't love the feeling of a sticky lotion or body oil before bed. No, same. I don't want it to feel too heavy. And I have found that this almost feels like the same hydration as a lotion, but it works like a serum as well. Liquid silk. It's so nice and it feels like I'm at a spa. It combines the lasting hydration of a lotion with the firming power of a serum and I feel smoother and firmer and supple. I like that word supple, because if you think of your skin, it's almost like you want it to be bouncy and very bright. And supple, it really does melt into your skin though, so you're not going to feel sticky or wet, but you are going to feel hydrated and replenished. I also love that the liquid silk body balm is clinically tested and designed to deliver visible results. You can see them, you can feel them. And I really do feel like I've noticed more hydration, like in my legs, especially I'm putting it on my legs, my arms. It's really nice. I kind of want to go put it on right now. And we're not the only ones who think so. 94% agreed. Skin felt more nourished and more strized and softer and 94% agreed that the skin felt more smooth and more supple, our favorite word. And right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order site-wide with code DATINGDETECTIVES at oceamalaboo.com. So the week is done. He's allowed back in his place, so I moved back in. The place is dirty, but I was just like, oh, that's weird. Whatever. Clean it up. This is fine. Yeah. He had moved his gaming computer into my apartment during that time, because he's a big gamer. So he gains a lot. So he moved it in for that week, and it essentially stayed there for the rest of the rest of time. So he would- For the rest of time. Because now we were doing COVID together. We were spending all of our time. There was nobody else that hung out with, no one he really hung out with. We were each other's bubble, which is- Yeah. During COVID, you were stuck with who you were stuck with. So in a lot of relationships, really, really. Fast track. Yep. For do. And because he's military, but when you were military, he's like bottom of the food chain. So they don't need him. He is getting paid, but he does not need to be on base. So we're spending all of our time together. I'm still working. By then, I've graduated. About February is when I graduated. Congratulations, by the way. And then I wasn't quite making enough at the church to survive. So I got another part-time job. So I was working still throughout the entirety of COVID, and he was just gaming, just gaming away. Just gaming. Yeah. But that's like we are each other's emotional support, we're each other's bubble. And we don't see anybody else. We don't talk to anybody else. And this whole time, the relationship is developing and getting more in-depth and more serious because that's what happened in COVID. What was like, can you talk about falling in love? Like what was talk about the good stuff, I guess? I don't think I knew what love was at that point. So to me, someone was there. Someone was home. It was nice to have somebody there. When I got home, I could talk to him. I had someone to cook for. I love cooking and baking. So it was really nice to just not eat by myself. I hated eating by myself. I felt, I wasn't alone. I felt supported and like he loved me, whatever that meant. I had felt like I had somebody in my court and I had never had that feeling before. So to me, that was kind of beautiful. And the first time ever. I don't know that I would describe it as love now with my understanding, but back then, that was the most love I've ever had. Obviously, there's some red flags that now we see of him not going to work in gaming for like eight, 10 hour days. Those are, that's a big red flag, but I excuse that away. Also, like you work from home part of the time. So you're just like in the corner while he's like yelling at Grand Theft Auto or whatever. Yeah, exactly. I excused it because that was his community. Like it was COVID. So a lot of his friends were gamers too and he could just play with that. And that's how you were connecting with online. Yeah. Yeah. So I understood it. Any other red flags at this point? There wasn't a lot of support with everything I was juggling, but again, it's new. I don't expect support. I've never gotten support. Why would I have that? Why would somebody make dinner for me when I'm gone to work and coming back at 7pm? Like that's weird. Yeah. That's my job. Red flag, because that's such bare minimum. And then he had lots of car issues all the time. So he was always having issues with his cars and he didn't have money. So he would be stuck with his broken car and not be able to afford it. And then he had really bad credit and like just, yeah, just weird. Just weird, but I just excused it because I don't know. Did he ever want you to pay for anything? I ended up paying for a stop, yes. So during the dating period, his one car broke down. He also said he was a mechanic. He said he worked as a mechanic for quite a while. He can never fix his cars. So I don't know. That was weird. He didn't say a good mechanic. Clearly not a good one. So he completely fucked up the brakes on his little Jeep he had there and then was like, well, I can't afford to fix this and decided that the best solution was to buy a different car. So then he bought a different car that wasn't road worthy without a lot of work. And then he fucked that all up too and couldn't figure out how to get it road worthy, which again, I don't know where the mechanics go. What's the confidence of a mediocre man? Yep. And then later on, again, that car's not working. So we have to buy a car and he has shit credit. So I buy the car with my name on it. And now that's his car. Oh, did he ask you for that or did you offer or was that kind of like the dry begging where I wish I had a co-signer? Yeah. And of course you're going to offer. It was just obviously this is what's going to happen. Well, we both need a car. So of course that I'll sign. Yeah. This is the obvious solution. So of course I'll do it. Of course I'll put my name down. Yeah. So those are red flags I didn't see. And they happened gradually. I say them back to back. Like this was over a month of time that this all happened. So that's kind of where we're sitting. We're getting closer. Things are progressing. And in April, we have sex for the first time. And it's consensual, which is my first time on that. It's very disappointing. Oh, no. But because of the religious beliefs, like the training is that if you have sex, you're getting married. So before anything happens, we have this very intense conversation of like, if we cross this line, if we have sex, like we are getting married. And he goes, would you marry me? And I say yes. And again, very mediocre and disappointing. Well, not worth it. And then at that point, I'm locked in this relationship is fully committed. We're going to get married. Like, this is it. This is my husband. And that's it. There is no other thought or talk or anything like that. We are committed now. And so in May, he proposes, it's been about three months of dating. And he proposes. And apparently he had this whole magical plan, bring me out my my apartment had a rooftop patio, and he was going to have this whole magical romantic proposal up there. Instead, he, it was gonna be on my birthday too. And instead the day before my birthday, I'm helping him move because he's moving the next day. And I come across the ring, the box with it. And he was like, what the heck? And he flips the coin. And he's like heads, I propose tails, I wait till tomorrow. Yeah. So he flips the coin and it's head. So he proposes right away on his dirty old mattress on the floor. While everything is dirty and all over the place because he's moving. Romantic. Wow, I guess it's the thought that counts. He's like, I was gonna. I was going to do this. I have no inkling or like, I have nothing to prove that you was actually going to do it from everything I saw after. Yeah, at that point, you can say whatever you want about what he was going to do. Yeah. So he proposes. And of course, I say yes, because we're basically already engaged anyways, we already decided this was happening. And that's that's the engagement. That's very romantic. How did your family? Not well. They kind of really cool. That's fast. We hardly know this guy. And you hardly know this guy and all valid points. But this whole time I've really kept a separation from my family because they aren't safe and they're not supportive. And they're not any of the things that family is. They are just right. Anytime I do do anything, they attack me and judge me for it. So of course, this was going to be the same scenario. So their judgment on it doesn't matter. Like, it's so inconsequential. This entire time, though, I have, I've still been working at the church and towards the end of May June, I believe actually, I stopped working there. And that entire year before I'd begun questioning my faith and really deconstructing all of my beliefs and just figuring out what I actually believed and what I wanted to stand by and figuring out my own moral code. So I am questioning everything. I'm taking apart everything. I am what sparked that? Did anything particular? It's, well, I worked for the church, so I saw a lot of the background stuff and that for sure initiated a lot of it. And I think I felt safe at that point because I had now the support of my fiance. I had somebody in my court. And I, yeah, I started to really take everything apart. And I, I could just see so much harm was being perpetrated by the church. Like everywhere I looked, I could just see people being hurt, like not just little bitty, bitty things, but actual harm that's going to stick with people. It was like, I've experienced this and now I'm watching other people experience it. And like, how do I stand by that? I can't. Like, there is nothing in me that lines up with this treatment of people. Like there was a youth in the group that I led that was trans and watching them interact with religion and how they were treated and how they received that treatment that really started to spark things and being like, well, this is a person who cares, how they feel like who cares how they identify. Yeah. And then we had a staff meeting once and they were talking about how far into leadership they would allow someone who's queer. And they talked about concentric circles where like leading in and in and in and like how close to the most central circle are queer people allowed. And they landed on like, well, they can be ushers, but we're not going to let them on the worship team because that's too much. And I'm listening to this just like my insides are screaming. I'm like, this is not right. Like I know the person we're talking about and they're a genuinely good, wonderful human. Why would we talk about them this way behind their back? So that really triggered a lot of the deconstruction of just seeing the act of harm being made and done to people in a church that I thought I trusted. A church I thought I could trust because they weren't legalistic and all of that, like what I had been raised in, I thought that they really valued the person over everything else. And then just to see like, no, no, that's all the same. Like everywhere just continues to hurt people. And I can't stand with that. I cannot. So my last year working there, I was actively deconstructing while still teaching Bible lessons. That must have been a little bit of a mind. Yeah, mindfuck. Yeah. But as soon as my contract was up, I didn't even go back to church. And I had been there three years, four years, three or four years, and they didn't even notice. No one even reached out to notice that I wasn't going anymore. I wasn't attending. I wasn't a part of anything. So I lost my whole community in that process. Your family, your community now, and you're about to get married. And I'm about to get married. And it's still COVID. So I am all alone. Like there is no other emotional support. And with deconstructing my faith, I'm distancing myself from my family even more. Because they can't understand why I'm doing this. They aren't going to accept that I am taking apart my faith and living differently. Even though I am living in a more like true and authentic version of myself that treats people far more kindly and fairly. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. I can't question. No, I am questioning and that's wrong. So that is happening. This entire relationship is I am deconstructing it all. And at first he's okay with it. Eventually he's very, I'm angry. I am so angry. Coming up, like taking everything apart and seeing all of the harm. I live in my anger for quite a while. Which, as we already said, is a defense mechanism. Like it is good. It is safe. It does stuff. It protects you and it protects other people when you get to be angry and use your anger for good. And that was my anger. My anger was protecting me. It was allowing me to question and to rebuild and to figure out what I was going to do and what I believed. So my anger was good. And at first he was okay with it. And then he started to get mad and frustrated that he was like, when are you going to stop being angry? And like, you do not want me to stop being angry right now at the church. It's going to come out against you. Because this anger is going somewhere. Yeah. Was he also leaving church or was it as big of a break for him? It was less of a break for him. I don't think he ever bought into it as fully as I did or as I had to. I think he did it for having a community, for having people. And it served him. So he quickly became against it, against the fact that I walked away from my faith. So that is all happening. And those are a lot of layers and a lot of stuff and a lot of isolation. And as I'm doing that, my sister is also in the same process. She's also questioning for the first time. And she lives 24 hours away from where I live at that point. So we're texting and we talk about it. And it's kind of this bonding thing where we're figuring it out. And she's really big on talking to people from our past to kind of like, learn about different things that happened in our childhood. And one of the things that we find out is that my parents left me with a known pedophile on purpose when I was about four or five. On purpose? What should we not purpose? I mean, a woman from the church was willing to babysit me for some reason. I needed babysitting that day or that night. And she offered and my parents said no and sent me off with him instead. And I remember we went camping. We were in a tent. I remember spending the night in the tent. I don't remember anything else. So I don't know. I don't know. I'm not going to say anything more to that. But that comes out that my parents knew and they had options on where to place their four or five year old daughter for a night. And they chose to leave me with him. So I'm so mad. I'm so mad when that comes out. I'm mad at people for not fighting, for not calling CPS. I'm mad at my parents for allowing that to happen. And Caleb is also mad about it and decides to confront my parents because I'm not, I have like no contact with them really at this point. I don't think I've seen them in person for a while by then. He goes and he confronts my dad and my dad completely denies it. He says we would never do that. We never did that. And there are my memories where I remember being left with him and there is other adults at the time who remember it happening. And that just, the outcome of that is Caleb saying never contact Abby again. How dare you. This happened. And that was a really big breaking point where I was like, how in the fuck do I keep people like this in my life? Like if I have kids, because at that point kids are being talked about because we're getting married. Like I don't want them around them. I don't want them being indoctrinated like why I was or anything. So that was a really big break there in my relationship with my family. I don't actually think I saw them again after that and any communication was very, very minimal. So that was, that was a big event. And it didn't bring me closer to him because like wow, somebody that spoke up and defended me. How crazy is that? Yep. And then by then we are engaged. We're still slowly planning. I want an outdoor wedding. I don't want a pastor. Like I don't want a religious wedding. I just want a simple little ceremony outside and by the water preferably. So now we are planning on going to visit his family, Caleb's family, and that's the first time I'll ever meet them. So we're making this plan and somehow don't know how, but somehow the idea is thrown out there and accepted that we will get married while we're there. And we're going in October. So we started dating in January or February. Engaged in May and now we're getting married in October and we met October as a year before for the first time. So that's the plan. I have a dress. We go there. By this point we have a puppy because he wanted to get a dog and I love dogs so we got a puppy and I bring him with me. Cute except for the fact that you live in a studio part when he's gaming all the time because I imagine he's not taking care of the puppy very well. No. Yeah. And this dog loves me and I love him but it was a lot of added responsibility. But yeah, we've made this decision. Now I have to decide when to tell family because minimal contact but there's still contact. I wait till about two weeks before and I send that in the group chat of like FYI, Caleb and I are getting married. There will be a live stream. You're welcome to watch it. Making it clear that I am not inviting them. I did not want to give them enough time to go and I still felt like I had to tell them it was happening. Yeah. So very, very strong reaction from family there. I'm getting messages left and right. My brother is saying all sorts of really harsh, harsh stuff. My brother-in-law is messaging me. He's messaging Caleb and just attacking both of us and saying how we're hurting my parents and all of this stuff. So there's no support. It is all just attacks of how could you do this and it just reinforces this idea of like, well, once we're married, this is done. Like, this won't happen anymore. We won't need to- Also, I feel like it would push you closer to Caleb. Yeah. Because now it was me and him against the world. That is how it felt. 100%. He is my whole world at that point and of course that's like, this is what's happening. Yeah. So that just starts to feel like the safest escape, the safest way is just, let's get married, let's get this over with and hopefully things will be easier after that. It's a great way to go into a marriage. And this whole time, his family is being very supportive. His mom and his aunt plan the wedding. I tell them like, I don't really care. Plan whatever you want. However, it looks like I don't care. So his mom and aunt are planning the wedding and we fly out there. I don't really jive well with his family. I still feel like really weird with them and not super like cozy, which is the first time we're meeting. So yeah, but then it's really weird because I'm marrying their son in a week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So very, very bizarre scenario. And then we are in marriage prep. What's the word for that? We are in premarital counseling. Premarital counseling. Oh, yeah. Yes. With the pastor who married his dad. I tell the pastor, I'm like, I don't want a religious wedding. Like I am not very religious anymore. I just want something short and sweet, nothing religious. And then he's basically not threatening us. That's a strong word. But the pastor is saying like, it's really fast. I don't feel super comfortable marrying you guys. I will do it, but you have to promise that this is it. You are getting married and you do plan to be together. And that's something. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So weird. Well, you're like, we're not doing this because we don't plan to be married. Like no one, nobody goes into it. No, no, exactly. There's a brief moment during the counseling where I have a thought of, I don't know if I want to do this. And I immediately shove that thought down because I am in a different province. I'm by myself surrounded by his family. I don't have a car. I can't get to the airport. I am at this point helping pay for a car. So I don't really have money either. And I have my apartment and like my car and a dog. I'm already in it. I'm here. I'm not feeling super sure. Sunk cost fallacy. Yeah. That's called the sunk cost fallacy whenever you, you're like, well, I've already put this much into it. I might as well keep going. And I feel alone there. Crazy. Like I've put a lot into this and I don't, like, I have this up. How do I leave? Like, what do I do if I cancel the wedding? I have nowhere to go and no one to go to. And I'm with his family. They're not going to have my back. I'm the stranger. So that thought, I just shove down right away because I have no way out. This is my option. This is what I'm doing. So that is a tough one to remember and wish I had had the strength to follow through on that thought and listen to it. I would have been okay if I did, but I didn't feel like I would in that moment. Yeah, you did the best you could with what you had at that moment. Yeah. I had nothing. Give yourself some grace there. You had nothing. Yeah. Yeah. So then we get married and it's in the church. It's the same pastor. It's the same exact sermon. And the main message of the sermon is that you can pray and love someone into changing, which I'm listening to that going, oh, you can't. That's not how that works. Also, why would you want to? That was the wedding. So then we fly back and now we're getting ready to move in together because we haven't been living together, but not really. We both still have a separate place. So we move into an apartment together and it's not in a great part of town because we're both young and poor. We're both working full time, so we both have steady paychecks coming in. Within weeks of moving in together, though, he is turning completely distant. We're not talking anymore. We're not doing it very much together anymore. There's just no emotional connection, which is so weird. So weird because it hasn't been like that so far. And this is like right off the hop. That's how fast his behavior went from being with support that I thought I had to just not giving a shit about me. It was so scary that when people get that marriage or lock in the security of the relationship, they just click a switch. Okay, so already this is so much, right? Oh my gosh. But this is something that like we said earlier, this was the... It's the priming of her. She was raised to be in an abusive relationship. But it's definitely priming her for sure. So I know there's so much more to come this week. Send us your questions or if you have experience with anything like this or just want to share support for Abby. We love to pass that along to our guests, but next week, we're going to hear more about how this impacted her relationship and get into the, what did you just say? Dog fishery. The dog fishery. More dog fishery-ness. Yeah, we'll definitely hear more about that. But I think that hearing this week's episode will help you understand more next week. And you'll be like, ah, I can see why she did that or why she reacted that way, responded that way. And so super, super interesting story. And I'm curious from our audience, have any of you been in an environment that is like this, like very cool? Or this one. A lot of religion, I feel like can feel this way. I come from a very Southern Baptist religious family. My mom's a pastor. My whole family is church, church, church, and my, there are parts of my family that are like friends. More extreme. Yeah, they're a little bit more extreme. They're, some of them are friends with some of these people and that you might have heard of. And it's just very interesting. You never know, like, you know, who, it's just, it's so, it's so wild to me. Yeah, I think it's, I'm glad you mentioned that and we'll get into it more in the dogfish debrief of part two, but like, this is such an extreme and religion comes up on the show a lot because, at least my, I'm just speaking for myself, like, I was raised Jewish in a, like a modern way, like reform, which is very like chill Judaism. But you know, religion is so complex and it, there's a beautiful part of the community that comes with it, but it's so easy to be used as a tool to manipulate. And there are extremes in every, any group, not even just religion, like any group has the potential to do this. And I think it's just important that we talk about the dangers to stay aware the same way that like, love is real, love is beautiful. We love relationships. And yet there are dogfish relationships. You know what I mean? So, I know it can be triggering to hear religious stories, but it religious trauma is just so devastating and we got to talk about it. So we're going to talk about it and we got more to say next week, baby. Yeah. So tune in next week for sure. You're going to want to hear the rest. And you, I think it'll, I don't, it'll be really eye opening and super, super interesting for sure. Well, we love you guys. And chat throughout the week. You want to hear what you have to say. We're dating detectives podcast on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and whatever else is out there. Thank you for sharing us on your, on your socials also and really connecting us with other, other people who, you know, really need to hear these stories. And we love you. As always, just your fan tuition.