Episode 1685 - Marc Maron

All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I am Mark Maron, and this is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it for almost the last time. This will be the penultimate, is that how you say it? Penultimate episode of this show. We have one more show to do. That will be on Monday. That will not be recorded here in the garage. And this one, I just wanted it to be us. I wanted it to be in the garage with just me and all of you. Me and you. We've had a relationship for a long time. A long time. 16 years. That's the longest relationship I've ever had with you. And if it hasn't been that long for some of you, you'll get the feeling. Get up to speed. Go spend 16 years with me. You can do it online. But on some levels, I understand that this is like a breakup, I guess. I don't feel it in that way. I know that some of you are sad. I'm sad. It's a big change for me. But sometimes you have to move on. And I know you don't have a say in this. And I apologize. But that's sometimes how these breakups go. But the truth is, is that we've certainly all come a long way together. I got an email today or someone reached out on me. She'd been listening to me for 16 years and she started when she was five because her parents used to make her listen to me in the car. And she hated me because I was just this annoying kind of a grumpy grown up. and somehow or another, now that she's in her 20s, she's come around to understanding the grumpiness. But that's crazy that people have grown up with me, that people have started with me in their teens, in their 20s, even in their 30s, and they're now in their 40s now, and their entire lives have changed. And I've been there. I've been talking to you. I appreciate the gravity of that. People are coming up to me a lot right now and saying, I'm going to miss you. I don't know what I'm going to do without the show. You were always with me. I get people emailing that they've taken me all over the world with them. And I, again, I appreciate the weight of that. And I'm grateful to have been part of your lives. I really am. You know, I have to make sure that I say that because I don't always think that way. I don't I'm just sitting here in this garage by myself and I'm surrounded with kind of homemade sound panels that a kid made for me. I've got some tchotchkes and bullshit on the desk here. And I walk out here from my house and I do this and I don't I'm just talking out. I'm talking out. I don't know where it all lands. But over the years and certainly in the last few months, it's been very moving for me to hear how much of what I do and what we did here, the conversations, the stories, my life has had an impact. It's profound and humbling because I rarely think about that. I mean, it's been a long time since I thought about like how many people are listening or it's been a long time since I I've listened to a whole podcast. So my experience with this is I'm just sitting out here. I'm just sitting out here in the garage talking, but I know I'm talking to you. And I do that as fullheartedly as I possibly can. And I guess that comes through. I want to reflect a little bit, I think, because I've been thinking about me in relation to this show and relation to my life and how it kind of began. But also before that, before that, and some words come up to me, you know, look, I've been called self-centered. I've been called narcissistic. I've been called, you know, a navel gazer. Yeah, these are the bad things. And in reflection about who I am and what my creativity is, I came upon a few words. a lot of times when I talk about starting this podcast, there's a sense that it was desperation. And that word has connotations that are negative, that, you know, that guy's desperate. And I think if you remove the judgment tone from desperation and you apply it to your life, The definition of desperation is a state of despair, typically one which results in a rash or extreme behavior. Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take it. At the beginning of this show, I was in a very bad place. My career was in the toilet and there was really nowhere to go from where I was. I'd been through a lot of shit. I'd been through two divorces, one that was dramatically and traumatically heartbreaking and costly. I didn't have a way forward really with comedy that made sense. I'd already been at it a long time. I was in my 40s. And rash or extreme behavior. The extreme behavior. See, even that definition has the connotation of something that could be negative. But the rash or extreme behavior that I took part in, in my desperation at the time, was to do something totally different. Look, I knew I could be on these mics, but the extreme behavior was like, we're going to do this thing because we have access to this technology to put it out there. And we don't know where it goes from there. There's no money involved. There's no guarantee of anything, listeners, anything. No one even knows what these podcasts are. But I needed to put myself out there. And the extreme behavior was taking that chance. The rash behavior was really just believing in it. So I think that framing desperation in that way, it becomes proactive. The other word I was thinking about was urgency. I live in an urgent state. I think that when you're self-employed and you do a lot of things, you're always chasing something. And if you're not organized, you have to do something right when it comes into your head or you might not do it. But the definition of urgency is importance requiring swift action and also an earnest and persistent quality insistence. I am at the core an urgent person. Everything happens urgently. When I talk, all of what I put out into the world requires me talking, and it's always urgent. It's very rarely passive. So when you mix this sort of desperate extreme action with urgency, that is a large component of why I connect, I think. And it doesn't go away. The urgency is annoying because some things can wait, but I'm not great at the waiting. And the great thing about doing this podcast and talking to you is that in my urgency, no matter where I am in my heart and mind, I have to put it out there for myself and then for you. It becomes that. The other word that I thought of was connection. Connection, a relationship in which a person, thing or ideas is linked or associated with something else. I live for connection. I live for it because I need it to know that I exist. Need, that's the other word. Need, require something because it is essential and very important. I have no ability to compartmentalize. It's always drenched in need, the need for connection with urgency coming out of, at the beginning, desperation. And this is how I live my life. And it's all very immediate. And it's all very important to me. Neediness. That implies that a negative But everyone has needs So when you take like neediness desperation urgency it all seems negative but it is not It is the only way that I can live in the world. And it's the way that my brain and my heart works. And it just happens to sort of fit, you know, what I do, which is talk in the moment, unscripted, like now. both in comedy and this podcast, which are my, that's what I do. I'm a standup comedian by trade. I'm a podcaster by trade, but also this is my creativity. And then the other word I looked up was selfish of a person, action, or motive, lacking consideration for others concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure? Well, fortunately, it was never about profit. And I don't know what pleasure is. For me, relief is good enough. And I don't lack consideration for others. I think I did because I was self-involved, but I'm not a sociopath. I have a conscience. It's just sometimes I'm a little late connecting it. you know, after the damage is done, I realized like, oh, I didn't take into consideration. But over the course of this show, you have heard me learn how to be considerate of others, how to be empathetic for others, how to listen to others, how to surrender a lot of my selfishness. And that's become ingrained in me. And that was the process of this. And I imagine that some of you took some of that away from this. I knew that I wanted to be a creative person. I was, and am a creative person. And when I was younger, I remember I was in 10th grade. I was in an English class and we were studying poetry and the teacher asked us to write a poem. And I wrote this very weird, heartfelt, sad poem about, you know, not knowing how to talk to girls, not being a jock, not, you know, having any experience with relationship. It was just a very, it was too much. And I remember reading it and the class was just mortified. And the teacher was like, oh, well, okay, Mark, thank you. That was very, that was very interesting. He's being, I just put too much of my heart out there and it alienated me more. But I spoke in honesty in that moment. And the feeling of doing that was horrendous. So I continued to do it my entire life. and when I got into college look I tried to I tried to pursue poetry I did photography I did acting I was always trying to put myself out there in in in an attempt to become sort of a whole person so if I thought if I could be seen and I could show myself that somehow or another I would come together and that's why I chose comedy for some reason it was because I could put myself out there. I mean, the requirement was to be funny, and I've gone through a lot of stages of doing that, but you could do whatever you wanted up there, and I really believed I would find myself through that. So comedy brought me here. The mics brought me here. Being on a mic is how I live my life, and how I've always lived my adult life. All the searching, which was never spiritual per se. I was fortunate in that, that I was not a spiritual searcher looking for the great answers to why we live or to whether there's a God or not, or to how to be spiritually sound and connected. You know, I was in search of myself. And I figured if I could get that, you know, undertaking completed, maybe I'd, you know, I'd seek the bigger answers. This is all in retrospect. This is me reflecting. But after years of talking on mics as a comic, you know, I began to do I did an opportunity to do some radio. And I realized, like, with these kind of mics, I can talk like I'm talking now. I can talk in a way that didn't require me to be funny, that I could actually explore every aspect and emotion and creative impulse that I have through talking without being expected to be funny, expected to be anything but myself. And that was the big breakthrough, is to be able to sit here. Again, I'm alone, and I'm always alone in this room on the mic unless I have a guest with me. You're hearing me find myself in the world in front of you. And I don't think that's selfish. And I think that's what we're all trying to do. you know, with some success or failure or doubt or pain. But that's what I do. You know, that's what I do. That was the big breakthrough that once I hit bottom, not with drugs and alcohol, that was before the podcast. But once I hit bottom with life and with career, that I found this mic and I found this medium and I found the connection. and I found a place where I could fully express my thoughts and feelings. And that was a big deal. And it remains a big deal to this conversation I'm having with you right now. But it was always about these rooms. It was always about this studio. It was always about, in the beginning, it was about the old garage. The old garage was a magical place, a truly magical place that I was ready to let go when I let it go. But that place, when I first got into that space, and it was actually a functioning garage just filled with crap, broken furniture and this and that, lamps, I just stuck a table in it. I put a floor down, I stuck a table in it, and I had my MacBook, and I had these big mics. And I sat there and did this with people coming in. And as it began to sort of take shape and become a thing. You know, I moved all of my stuff from storage, all of my books, all of my tchotchkes, all of my life in pictures, photographs, pieces of art, little knickknacks. And I made it an environment that was not just cozy, but it was literally a representation of my entire life through bits and pieces of things that were important to me. Clutter, but informed clutter. It was like you were walking into my being because I was surrounded with all of it in that room. And it was a magical place. And at the beginning, when people would come to the house, they'd have to walk through my little, you know, eight, 900 square foot house with one bathroom. This old 1923 Spanish bungalow house with a beat up garage out back. And they'd have to walk through my entire being before they even got on the mic. and all the sort of working through things with people and trying to get connected initially with my community of comics who I thought I had alienated. But I always felt this way. It turns out over time that you start to learn that, you know, only you feel that way. It was like that moment in high school where I spoke up and I did something that I thought was, you know, important and beautiful and honest, and I felt nothing but ostracized. I've always felt that way. And I guess that is sort of an inverted grandiosity, like, you know, in the rooms, they call it the piece of shit at the center of the universe. But it just wasn't really the case. And over time, I realized, like, you know, I'm not that important. I'm not that special. I don't have that much of an impact. And all these things that I was assuming were in my head. But nonetheless, over the course of those first few hundred episodes, I started to open up and started to learn how to have these conversations and also speak to you directly at the beginning, which was very important. And this was never a for-profit endeavor. I was adverse to even having ads on it. I thought, you know, that would ruin it, man. We got something pure here. It wasn't even a punk rock sensibility. I just thought it would ruin the integrity of the thing. So, you know, we set up a donation site. And I was in my house with, I had a roommate at that time, Stosh, and she was helping me pack envelopes, you know, to send swag out to people that gave a little money. It was like, it was all hands on deck. It was urgent. It's always urgent. This was urgent when I got up to do this, but it was always just about me on this mic and it still is. You know, I walk away from this. I walk away from a guest interview and, and, and it's in the past. And I don't even think I always realized the impact of it or how it's going out there. I long ago stopped wondering about how many people are listening and all that. And I was just showing up to do this work you know with a certain sense of urgency It just was life or death Urgency and the need for connection so I could exist in the world But it was always about these mics That old studio was, you know, a magical place. And people would come to look at it. They would drive by my house. They wanted to know what it was, the garage, the cat ranch. The cats all played an important part. My divorces played an important part. You know, my friends who would make me laugh played an important part. But really, when it comes down to it, it was you guys who were really the most important because something I was doing was speaking to you. And the sort of gratitude and input I've had from the audience has been something I could never have imagined. that my struggle, which is, again, the urgency of my life and how I react to it and then talk about it and live in it and share it with you, was somehow a consciousness that many of you connected with. And it changed my life. And look, a lot of things have changed for me. A lot of you know that. when I moved to this house, again, the urgency. I've done this show, I did it in the magic room, in the old house, at the cat ranch, out there off of that beat up patio deck. I've done it in hotel rooms around the world. I've done it in airport lounges. I've done it in cars. I've done it outside. because my work ethic, my creative ethic, and just the way I live my life is urgent. And I do feel like I could use a break from that because I was just realizing the other night when I was driving down to the store over Laurel Canyon, a drive I've made all of my adult life on and off to the comedy store, that I was sitting in my body. and my body was in my car. I don't know if that really is as profound to you as it is for me, but I was in that moment because I've been wondering, you know, what's life going to be like without this podcast? And we've been slowing down and saying this goodbye for a long time now, months. But I was really in a present that I don't know that I've experienced before where I wasn't up in my head. I wasn't really panicking about anything. Oh boy, I guess that's the other word. I left out a very important word. Hold on. I'd like to get the definition of that. I left out the most important word to go with the other words, panic. Sudden, uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behavior or wildly overthinking behavior in my case. My panic is definitely not unthinking. It may be untrue, but it's not unthinking. Yeah, throw that into the mix. Panic, need, connection, urgency, desperation, selfish. These are the words that I guess I'm trying to share with you because all of them seem negative. But out of that combination, I became a more full, compassionate, empathetic, wiser, funnier, humble person. But I couldn't have done it without that path through those words and what they mean and sharing them with you. So I'm driving in my car and I realized like, dude, you are fully in your life right now. You just turned 62 years old and you're fully in your life right now. And I don't know if I've ever felt that. It's taken me this long to get here. And I know that not everybody's like me. And I don't need to talk about why I'm like I am. You know, I've done that exploration. This being in the world in the form and with the sense of self I have now is a new experience. Because I've done everything to not avoid it, but to just keep moving. and I'm realizing now as we slow the show down that I have not really sat with myself and just sat with the frequency of what is in my immediate environment in my immediate life with with a sense of accomplishment with a sense of peace with a sense of appreciation for what I've done and for other people. And it's overwhelming, but it's new to me. But I just remember when I got this place and I was thrilled about the studio, having a studio here, but then the sound wasn't right. And I was trying to record the first day I was here and they were jackhammering around the corner. And I just freaked out because it was bleeding into the room. My old garage was so insulated with which which shit from my life that it was a perfect sound and i just remember like i still had my headphones around my neck and i ran around the corner to where they were doing the construction i was in the middle of the street looking at these guys working construction going how long are you going to be doing this i have to record the urgency and i don't even know with my urgency you know how insane i have looked in my life to other people like what is what is the problem. I, this is very important. Everything is very important. And, and they, they stopped. It was like when Arnold Schwarzenegger came over here and they were doing yard work. And I was like, you guys, I've got Arnold Schwarzenegger is going to be here. This is, this is important. Everything is fucking life or death. And that is some anxiety part is that anxiety. Anxiety. Wow. That's the other word. I think I kind of, it all adds up to that, doesn't it? But look, you guys, oh, come on. I'm going to miss you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is anxiety is a normal human emotion involving feelings of apprehension, fear, or unease about potential future misfortune. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, yeah, exactly. Welcome to me. Fuck. Boy, now I'm just doing a hypochondriac thing. Excessive worry or rumination. Physical symptoms. Rapid heartbeat, sweating, shortness of breath, muscle tension, avoidance, avoiding situations or activities that trigger anxiety. Everything. Difficulty sweeping. That went away. irritability. Yeah. There's the other word anxiety. What, what are the words we have here? Desperation, urgency, connection, need, selfish anxiety. Through that path, my friends, I've become a more full person right in front of your very eyes, but it was always about the mic. It was always about the talking. It was always about the urgency of talking. It was always about working it out out loud in front of you. And we've been through a lot of stuff together, a lot of breakups, death, cats, the world. Yeah, we've been through a lot of shit together. And I'm going to miss you. I'm going to miss this. And this was not a decision made quickly and was not taken lightly. And I do want to say that I am somewhat excited. I am somewhat relieved. But a lot of people are like, well, you know, you're not going to stop, whatever. You're going to go on to do this. And yeah, yeah, but this work was my life. This work was important. every one of these conversations was important to me and and i always have an elevated sense of self-importance you know just because that's the way i live my life like wow i really we really did something here and i think about that with jokes and whatever and like when i look outside to people i'm like i don't know what i'm what i want them to be i guess i want them to be my mother and i'm like you know four years old and i just want people to go that was really great that really made a difference That was really special That was important that joke But now I can do that for myself This was important. This was special. This was relevant. This was life-changing for me and for some of you. It was important. It is important. and the relief that I feel is really that I've been working nonstop trying to put myself out there and be creative in the ways I've chosen for all of my adult life and somehow or another I earned a living I saved some money but I think I I missed a lot of life while I was in it because I look back on it and I think, God damn it, how did I do that? How did I get through that? Who was that guy who did that? Being who I am and what I do, I'm very present. But once I walk out of that present, you know, it quickly becomes the past. And I don't really afford myself any sort of appreciation or gratitude or feeling of accomplishment naturally. But I have it now, most of the time. And I, and I want to, I want to live in that for a little while. And then I want to see what, you know, see what I am and who I am now in terms of like just living life. I just want to focus on, you know, slowing it down a little bit and then being in myself and being in my life and, and having that be enough. Is that okay? Is that okay, you guys. I hope it all made sense. But this thing, this thing was, you know, it didn't go by fast, but when I look at it and I see how much we've done, it's crazy. We've done a lot of stuff and we did it to the best of our abilities, Brendan and I and all the guests I got to be grateful for them all the people that I had these conversations with who I consider my friends even if they don't really remember me or know just how important and how urgent it was that we talked thank you to all of them what amazing people and I just I want to reflect on all of it. It just all was all in the moment. It was all so, again, urgent to the point where I didn't miss it, but I didn't appreciate it enough when I did it. Maybe I did in the moment, but I'm just overwhelmed with the accomplishment of it all. I'm just so happy you guys were with me, you people. to experience this all with me. I am feeling grateful. I am feeling sad. It is a sense of loss, but it's not a bad one. It's just life. I mean, fuck. Really. Really. A lot of your input changed my mind, changed the way I looked at things. I really took to heart a lot of what many of you said to me, in person, sometimes through emails. And I really feel like you were a big part of my evolution or my evolving wisdom and perception. You really helped me. Yeah. I don't know, man. I love you guys. And I think you'll be okay without me. I'm not entirely sure I'll be okay without you. But it has been quite a ride, quite an adventure, quite a life. And Boomer lives. Monkey, LaFonda, cat angels everywhere. I really had no expectations out of this show. I think Brendan and I got into doing it thinking we might get, you know, maybe a few hundred people. I had no idea that it would take off the way it did. And deeper than that, I had no idea that it would connect to people in the way that it does. You're connecting with me on some other level than I ever imagined possible. It's not really about comedy. It seems to be about sharing what is inside of my head or having the freedom to do that. What I've grown to realize as I do this show is that many of us spend our lives just trying to get by, just trying to get through life. That happiness makes you cry. I never cry when I just, you know what, it is a beautiful story, and sometimes I forget that. Now I'm crying. Something happened in here, I can't explain it. I don't know why it happens or why it happened. And all of a sudden it's popular. There's a pride in that that you can't imagine. There's a pride in it that's bigger than getting a joke over or doing a good show. And I'm super proud of you. And I can honestly tell you, Mark, that when I hear your interviews, I'm in awe. I think it's totally amazing. All right. I'm in awe. What can I tell you? That's the truth. Well, that makes me happy to hear. It's really what it's all about, to make people feel less alone in the most horrible places in their minds, in their lives, in their situations, of all kinds. How would you describe yourself using only three words? I don't know. How about I'm Almost There? I'm very grateful that it's working out, and I love doing it, but I do have a guy within me that says, like, oh, the other food's going to drop, dude. Oh, well, that's the first thing. But something is going to happen. Thanks, Norm. That's the bad part. All right, let's weave it there. Okay. Love you, buddy. Love you too, man. You know someday you'll die. And instead of saying all of your goodbyes, let them know you realize that life goes fast. It's hard to make the good things last. You realize the sun doesn't go down. It's just an illusion caused by the world Spinning mud Ultimately, this is your show. I'm talking to you. Do you realize? And I couldn't do it without you. I really couldn't. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Do you realize? Okay. Wipe your eyes. That was it for today. From the garage, but we have one more episode coming up on Monday, our truly last episode. And I think you'll enjoy it. All right, then. Talk to you later. Thank you. Uncharts Uncharts