Declutter to Fit the Life You Want (Tough Love with Peter Walsh) | Clutterbug Podcast #314

I started off my journey from, I call myself a super slob, but in reality, that's exactly what I was. Someone who was drowning in clutter. And it wasn't like dead cats hoarders, but it was to the point where it impacted every aspect of my life. I was always late paying bills because I couldn't find them. I was always late getting out the door because I couldn't find keys and shoes. Every day felt like a panic. Every day felt like suffocation. I wasn't inviting people into my home. I was filled with shame and self-hatred because of the way my house looked. And all of that changed because of one person. And today we get to talk to him. And that is the incredible Peter Walsh. I started my journey watching a show on TLC called Clean Sweep, sitting in like a horde of toys and mess and being unshowered and just feeling like, my gosh, I can't do another day like this. I watched one episode of a silly television show and every single thing changed. And it's the reason I started Clutterbug. It's the reason it's just the reason for everything. And I call him my hero and he hates when I say that. But the reality is, I don't know where I would be without Peter Walsh. So I cannot wait for you to hear from Peter. But first, just like always, you're not allowed to just watch this, okay? You've got to take action on something. I want you to get up and make yourself proud. It doesn't have to be decluttering. What if today we are focusing on prettifying a space? Is that a word? What if you today pick one space and straighten it, fluff your pillows, open the curtains, make a space feel a little bit more beautiful today? What if you walk around your house and try to make multiple spaces feel more beautiful? That could be an amazing way to honor today's guest. Butterbugs, welcome back. I am so excited for you to hear today's interview. We are talking with the incredible Peter Walsh. He has a new show. Well, it's not new. It's in its sixth season, but maybe it's new to you. You haven't heard of it called Space Invaders. It's been really hard to find, but I've been watching a few episodes and I have to say life-changing, honestly, absolutely incredible. And he's just filled with wisdom. So buckle up. Today is going to be an amazing interview. Hello, Peter. Welcome to the Clutterbug Podcast. Absolutely my pleasure. Where are you, by the way? I'm in southwestern Ontario, so 10 minutes from Detroit. Where are you? You're usually in Australia. I'm in Palm Springs today. I'm so used to American temperatures. It's 82 degrees here today, so hurry up. I have to go outside and sip a pina colada with a little umbrella in it by the pool, so get a move on. I'm going to hurry. It's cold here. It's a blizzard out there. I don't know, freezing. I'm not, the Fahrenheit Celsius thing, so I don't know. When it's cold, I use the one where zero is freezing, and when it's warm outside, I use the one where 100 is too hot. Hang on for one second. Alexa, how much is 82 degrees Fahrenheit in centigrade? 82 degrees Fahrenheit is about 27.7. 28 degrees centigrade. Sounds nice. Way nicer than here. I'm jealous. So that's amazing. Okay. You know what I'm so excited to talk to you about? Space invaders. Man. Well, you know, it's a good show. It's been so successful in Australia, and it's been showing in parts of Canada, I know. But the funniest thing is, and I shouldn't laugh, is it's been showing in French Canada for some time, but they've dubbed it in French as menage a trois, which seriously, it's known as menage a trois because I've got two co-hosts. So I find that tongue… That means something very different, Peter. What are you talking about, Cass? hmm spg i'm not but uh don't google it to my listeners don't google it um so you could google it just don't hit on images that's the thing that's embarrassing so you know we've got um we've shot uh nearly 60 episodes six seasons so far and it's been wildly successful you know it's shown in australia and all around the world except it's shown in limited release in canada i know that and I'm not in the US which is very frustrating and one of the amazing things is almost towards the end of the sixth season so we've been shooting six seasons over about five years three quarters of the way through the sixth season I realized that I was opening the 10,000th box of clutter since we started season one so it's just it's it's a massive massive amount of stuff we go through in the four days of the shoot. But it's, you know, it's been great. I love it. Is that all it is, is four days? Before you answer that, actually, could you tell my listeners a little bit about the premise of the show? Because unfortunately, I don't think they get to see it. Look, it's a fairly standard format where we go into people's homes that are overrun with clutter. There are two co-hosts. One is a contractor, Cherie, and one who finds treasures, things of value in the house, Angie. It's shot Tuesday through Friday, four days only. People don't believe this. We remove clutter from generally up to four rooms in the home. We take all of that stuff out of the four rooms, let's say, and remove it to a warehouse. While I'm going through the stuff in a warehouse with the family, Cherie does a complete renovation on those four rooms. The amount of stuff we take out of the house ranges from a minimum of 200 boxes of stuff to a maximum, I think the most we took out was 520 boxes of stuff out of the house. and I have basically all day Wednesday and Thursday to go through the house. Sheree has all day Wednesday and Thursday to renovate and then Friday morning we take back what they've decluttered. Generally, the family get rid of around about 80% of what they started with and most of that is donated. If there are high-value items, they're offered the opportunity to sell it or give it to family or whatever. And it's one of the most popular shows on Australian TV. It's an incredible show, and it's similar to Clean Sweep, which I watched – listen, I just realized I watched this 17 years ago. I'm feeling old right now. but I got to say this, Peter, and I know you don't like it when I fangirl on you, but I watched one episode of that show on TLC. I was sitting on the couch and it changed my life. And the thing about, no, it changed my life. It's the whole reason. Not only did I get my own home decluttered and organized, but now I get to help millions of people all over the world. And it is because of a TV show. And what's insane to me is there isn't television we watch. It's like, oh, Dancing with the Stars or some reality show or, you know, I don't know, CIS or something. And it's entertaining, but it doesn't impact in a way that your show does. And so I can now watch a little bit of Space Invaders on Stack TV. And I saw an episode on YouTube, but it's hard to get. But, man, Peter, it's even better than Clean Sweep. I can't believe I'm saying it, but it is. You know, I think the interesting thing for me is that, you know, I accept that I'm close to the end of my career in doing this. And, you know, I've been doing it for over 20 years. And the thing I think is that early on, and I can say this in all honesty, I made a huge mistake in my organizing style. and I think a lot of organisers do and I think most of our clients do in thinking that it was about the stuff and I think I've had a massive evolution and transformation myself over the 20 odd years that I've been doing this that it is never about the stuff and I think that's what makes Space Invaders such a powerful show that I've come to realise and you and I have spoken about this before that clutter very seldom, if ever, is about the stuff. It's about fear or loss or abandonment or grief or neglect. It's about all of those things. And it's really easy to organize a closet or to organize a junk drawer. And early on, it was all about, let's find the right storage boxes or the right frames or the right shadow boxes. And it's just crap. You know, it's just more stuff to organize your stuff. And until you can get beyond that to, you know, the reasons behind this need to hold on to stuff, this need for security from stuff, this fear, whether it's a small F fear or a big F fear, then we're wasting our time and we're really cheating our clients. And I think that's what, for me, I feel like after 20 years, I'm only just finding my stride. And that's why I think that that that's why Space Invaders. And it's interesting. You know, I'm I'm still recording some material for the show. The the the the interview pieces that drop in between the field stuff with shot. I'm still recording that now to drop in for that once the new season starts airing. And I spoke to one of the producers and he said, you know, this season is even more empathetic than any season before. And I think for me, I don't care that much about it. It's weird. I don't care that much about the stuff. You know, you tell the story through the stuff, but it's about the story behind the stuff that really propels change. Yeah, I agree with you. I just watched before we were jumping on, I watched season five, episode five, which is actually on YouTube. I don't think it's legally on YouTube. I think someone put it on there, but it's the 77-year-old grandma, Diane. I cried like a baby, Peter. And I'm going to be honest. I didn't even need to see the beautiful transformation with the renovation. Her transformation, you could see her getting it. And what really stood out to me was I call what she was struggling with was like identity clutter. She prided herself on decorating for Christmas and having parties and being the person who brought joy. Yeah, brought joy to others. And so she didn't see her clutter as stuff. She saw it as her being able to bring joy to other people. And I think what's fascinating about that is I see this a lot. So someone's into crafting and it's part of their identity and they get to make things for other people and then it takes over and something beautiful becomes something really toxic. But it's hard to see it when you're in it. Are you noticing a kind of trend? You're helping so many people with the types of clutter that people are struggling with. Is it mostly this identity clutter or is it that they are putting monetary value on things? Is there one that stands out? It's a great question. In all religious traditions, whether Judeo-Christian, Buddhist, Eastern, Sufi, Islam, whatever, there is one common thread that I really like, and I think most of your listeners and my followers probably are the Judeo-Christian tradition and are familiar with the Bible. In the Ten Commandments, there is a word that appears twice, and that's the word covet. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. They shall not covet thy neighbour's goods. It's a word we all learned as kids if we were in Bible study or whatever, or as I was in Catholic school. A word I never really understood. It's one of the most powerful words, covet, to covet, to yearn for, to lust after, to want. I think it's a word for me that most helps understand the problem that we have. Once you start to covet what others have, you lose all sense of perspective. And I think for me to summarize that, comparison is the death of happiness. Comparison is the death of happiness And you shall not covet thy neighbour's goods Because the moment you start coveting You want them Then you become obsessed with them Then you will do anything to get them And I think to jump forward into your question We're in the age of the internet Where we see things And the internet is not real social media particularly. So we see all these people doing all these things in these perfect lives, owning all these things, and it's all bullshit. You know, none of it is real. None of it is real. And so we covet all of these perfect lives. We covet all of these clothes. We covet all of these goods. We covered all of these holidays and cars and homes and perfect living rooms and bedspreads and furniture. And so we spend our lives, our real lives are subsumed into our online lives, into stuff that's not real. And so we then pursue this online life of buying stuff, of consuming stuff, we don't have a clutter problem. We have a consumption problem. And so that's what I see, and it goes all the way back to religious texts from thousands of years ago. We're in a coveting problem. And so for me, for me, that's what I, every time I step into it, it's interesting watching the look on your face. I can see the wheels turning. Like this is not a new problem. It's an age. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. Your neighbor who has 20 goats and you have four goats, the moment you want his goats, you've lost all sense of happiness. Yeah. And you see my face because I'm thinking about my own life and the thing that I overconsume. Yeah. And it's not that I'm chasing what other people have. Sometimes I'm chasing like my idealized version of myself. That's it. And yeah, so it isn't even I want to copy what other – I want to look younger and I want to be more fit and I want to be a person who works out more and I want to be a person who's really crafty and I want to be a person who makes sourdough starter. Aspiration. It's all aspiration. and it's built. Where does it come from? You know, there's some amazing stat about younger people who plan their holidays to take to reproduce photos of perfect places they see on Instagram. That's crazy. Yeah, that's it. It's frigging crazy. Don't get me started because my language goes downhill very quickly. But you see, this whole thing, And that's the thing that's fascinating. It's not new. It's thousands of years old. You shall not covet. The moment you covet, you can't be happy. Because, you know, there's always someone more beautiful than you, thinner than you, richer than you, smarter than you, always. Always. It's so true. Yeah, I mean, I've been decluttering a long time. I've been doing this 14 years. Oh, my gosh. You old. You old. I old. So I started with my own journey. And about two or three years in, I started helping friends and family. And I've been really doing Clutterbug for 12 years or so. But it's just to the point now, Peter, and I'm embarrassed to say this, like I was still consuming and I was down that path of I'm going to find the perfect organizing products and to help people. And it's all about, but lately it's a thing I would say. Yeah. Just recently, I feel like almost an ick at the store. I went shopping with my girlfriend yesterday and we were going around the Dollar Tree and she's like, I'm going to make this Valentine's Day thing. I was like, I felt sick. Like I don't want to decorate for Valentine's Day. And before this would be something that I would be so excited about. I'm feeling this real disgust while at stores, while thinking about purchasing new things. And it's lovely, but also it's changing the way I'm working with clients too. And I'm wondering if you're seeing this, I'm finding myself being a little bit more short and a little bit less patient and a little bit more like, what are you doing Just put it in a dumpster This is ridiculous And it not being received well Peter Well you know don talk to me about patience levels I'm the worst person to talk to about that. Look, you know, you look at stats. You know, I spend six months of the year here in the U.S. and six months in Australia. I mean, just look at a couple of the stats. You know, the U.S. has 5% of the world's population and consumes 25% of the world's resources. 4% of the world's children and 40% of the world's toys. You know, it's not a clutter problem. It's a consumption problem. And go into, you know, go into any of those stores, you know, dollar store and all that. You know, the drive for, you know, the least expensive item, that's what drives global warming. You know, and that's my thing. If price is the best thing about something, do not buy it. If price is the best thing, do not buy it. It is tough. We can say stop buying, but let's realize this is ridiculously hard because it's ingrained in us from the day we're born. And we think about Christmas. You show people you love by buying things. Oh, you're feeling sad? Go to the store. We watch any type of anything and we're being told products will make us happy and solve our problems. And guess what? It does feel nice to shop. It feels nice to get new things. So we are fighting a battle that's so crazy. And I think I think back to my mom who never decluttered ever. She never decluttered, but didn't have a house that was full. And I think about my own life. If I wasn't decluttering, I would be on an episode of Hoarders. Because the amount of things coming in now for my generation is 20 times the amount that was coming in for my mother's and 100 times more than my grandmother's. And why is this, I guess? Why is the consumption magnified like it is? Is it because it's cheaper? Is it because it's easy? Is it because of social media? Is it because of all of those things? Is it because our economy runs on the fact that we buy things? It's all of those things. I mean, things are cheap. Credit's easy. It's no longer a cash economy, so it's very easy to tap or put down a card or at 10 o'clock at night to click on something. You know, it's very easy to do that, and it's invisible. You know, you don't see the transaction, and so, you know, that's easy. You know, and two, you know, we're manipulated. You know, we're incredibly manipulated online by a whole lot of things. You know, our social media feed, you know, feeds us stuff, you know, based on, you know, the things we say in our house, you know, And that's the truth. You know, our phones, our electronic devices are listening constantly and feed us marketing stuff based on what they hear in our homes. And that's not a conspiracy theory. That's fact. They're programmed to hear words and feed us stuff. And so, you know, our desires are fed by, you know, the electronic things in our house. and, you know, we are from birth told that more is better. One is good, two must be great. A measure of success is the amount of stuff we have. You know, I try very hard and, you know, I don't pretend to be any better than anyone else. I try very hard in terms of, you know, my consumption. You know, I own very few clothes. You know, I just try and, you know, and I, you know, I try to buy clothes on a regular basis from Goodwill stores, you know, to, you know, recycle clothes. You know, it's also part of things. I hate shopping. That's also part of my problem. I don't want to sound holier than thou. I just hate it. You know, and I'm just very conscious. You know, I try to have experiences rather than buy things. You know, my partner won't see this, so I can say this. So, you know, when he's away, I go on a kind of decluttering spree and just empty the house of pride myself on being able to fill the car with stuff and take it to the local goodwill store. God forbid he sees this, he'll kill me. But he doesn't notice. You know, you can easily go around the house. You know, maybe this is a challenge to everyone watching this, you know, spend the next month, you know, every day, remove five things from your house. you know by the end of the month you will have removed 150 things from your house it's you'll be astounded just five things a day from your house for the next month you'll remove 150 things it's amazing we have so much crap in our homes that we don't need yous or want i mean look at that shelf behind you why have you got that unicorn head on the shelf behind you i it's just filling space. Stop calling me out, Peter. Also, some of these bins are completely empty. It's just to look pretty. It's ridiculous. I know. I get it. I know. So I will say, I want to say, I'm going to call myself out and be honest here. I have a consumption problem, absolutely. But I'm actually still grateful for the decluttering because I know, I hear from clients, oh, it's wasteful to let go. I'll just go and rebuy it. And I will tell you in all honesty, the things I'm decluttering are not things I'm going and rebuying. And if I didn't declutter, I'd still be consuming anyways. I wouldn't be able to walk in my home. And I know this. So I'm so happy I started with the decluttering and it took me longer than it should have. I will say that get to the point now where I'm like, ew, the buying feels gross. The buying feels gross. I don't want people to live monastic lives. I don't want that. I really don't. And it's not an event. Decluttering and getting organized is not an event. It's a mindset and a process. But you've got to be happy in your life. You've got to live. And if you have a ton of stuff in your house and you're happy and there are no fights and your families, you know you've got great relationships good for you you know i don't i don't care i don't give a rats if you know if you know if you have a house full of stuff good for you i'm seriously i don't care you know but if your home is causing you trauma you know if you've got fights if you know if you're not happy in the home you live in then you know pull you know put on your big boy pants or your big girl pants and start today and do something about it you know stuff doesn't bring happiness you know that for me you know and that's the thing i say all the time if you want to put your hand out i'll help you but if you don't you know if you don't want you know if you're happy with the way you live however that is then good for you you know it's not for me to you know people say to me all the time you make people throw stuff away it's off you know i don't you know i don't and i never sorry you know look this is i'm at the end of my career i don't care anymore i really don't. You know, I'm just very direct now. Like, your stuff, if you, you will drown in your stuff if you're not careful. That's the truth. And I'm, you know, I don't mess around. You know, if you think some of those shows are nice, you see me on Space Invite, you should see me when I put people in, you know, in the crosshairs. I don't have time to mess around. I don't have time. You know, I just, I don't. If you, that's the thing if you invite me into your home then i'm going to tell you how i see it after 20 years and people get upset or angry and if people cry or get angry or upset i feel great because that and i'll tell you why because that tells me that i'm i'm in the right place if i'm eliciting emotion that says we're working we're working we're in the right area you know it's It's like when a doctor says, tell me, you know, hang on, does it hurt here? No. Does it hurt here? No. Ah, yes. You know, they've hit the right spot. It's like that if someone elicits emotion, it says you're in the right spot. So I'm not, I don't get, someone starts to cry or screams or even swings a punch. Doesn't scare me. It says we're in the right spot. Let's work here. Oh, that's actually really good. Okay. I need your wisdom because I'm a little, I was disillusioned. And recently I've been able to see things for how they really are. And I had a slight mental breakdown, but I watched your show. I watched Clean Sweep and it changed my life. It's stuck. I read your books. I'm like, I changed. And now I'm like, oh, I want to be Peter Walsh too. No, no, no, no. That's not true. Yeah, listen. So, Liz, I start Clutterbug. I'm like, I want to have the same impact that you had on me. Your message stuck, and it changed my life. I want to help change lives, too, because I've seen how impactful it is. And I was doing a live two weeks ago, and it was everyone's like, yeah, we were decluttering live for a full hour. And I was like, okay, now. It was a full day at this point, but I had been talking with them for an hour. And I said, now I want to challenge you to take one small thing out of the donation and put it in the trash because you're going to make mistakes and there's going to be casualties. And sometimes things aren't going to be perfect. I really want to challenge you. And people couldn't do it. There was this huge backlash. And then I had a scratch ticket that was a year old that was worth two dollars. And I said, this has been a to do list on my I keep saying I'm going to go and I never do. I'm going to forgive myself and say, it's just going to be gone. I'm going to put it in trash. And people were horrified. And I started to cry because I realized in that moment that I wasn't really getting through, that that perfectionism of everything was so black and white of what's right and wrong. And they didn't want to be wasteful and letting go is bad. I thought that I was impacting them, Peter, and I realized in that moment that maybe it wasn't getting through and it wasn't sticking and they weren't ready. And do you ever feel that? Like, how do you how do you keep going when you're like, am I just shouting into the sky? Is anyone even listening? Why was it important that they had to do what you said? I don't for me, I felt like if they could let go of the expectations and just give them self permission to just mess up a little bit, then then going forward, they wouldn't have that fear of doing things wrong. I do feel a lot of people struggle to declutter because it's the what if I regret it? What if I have to I don't want to be wasteful? What if this is just contributing to a landfill? What if I'm a bad person for letting it go? And that fear is so strong. I think it's a roadblock. And I thought if I could just, if they could just be bad on purpose, a little tiny bit, one chipped mug that Goodwill will probably put in the trash anyways, one old something, if they could just give themselves permission to fail, then going forward, maybe they could be a little bit raver. Were you physically with them? it was a virtual yeah it's tough it's tough it's it's tough if you're not physically with people i've i've done the same in fact on one of the episodes i just did the same thing but instead of getting them to to to it was there was a whole lot of kitchenware and instead of getting them to smash something of theirs i got a dish from our kitchen and got them to smash a dish and so and so and could they could they break it no it's this is wasteful no i can't smash this and i was like yes you're going to smash it smash this disc and they were they were completely freaked out and eventually and i actually smashed one first and said i want you to it was a you know a 50 cent plate smash it smash this and they smashed it and in that moment it was like wow i can do that but not theirs and so look look this right and so i cried peter because i realized in this moment how much value people are putting on inanimate objects even objects that they've said i don't like it i don't want it in my house i don't even they still had more value in that thing than they had in their own self-love and and their own yeah like yeah and it broke my heart It broke my heart. I think you're reading it too strongly. It's more about, I don't know, there's a lot going on there. I think, one, virtually, it's hard to do it virtually without you being there with them. I think, you know, there's a huge bridge, you know, if you're not physically with someone to kind of read body language and support them. I think that's one. And I think, too, in that moment, a lot of it's about, you know, getting people to kind of, you know, actually confront fear of failure, you know, and that's also a really tough thing. And I don't think it's about you, you know. I think for you to say that, it's not – it has nothing to do with you, you know. And for you to take that on. You also used the word in there when you started explaining this, perfection, you know perfectionism and um that's a dangerous path to get stuck on you know it's uh you know it's you know for me you know i hate the term perfectionism i call it the martha stewart goal you know it's just i find it repulses me look near enough is good enough you know near enough is good enough if you know if you if you did well how would you like put aside that moment how would you score the whole the whole exercise the whole day how would you score that out of 10 the whole day? In my mind, Peter, they were clearing their closets and it was changing their lives. And I felt... Wait, wait, wait. Answer the question. How would you score the day apart from that moment out of 10? It would be a 10. Then what the hell are you talking about? Shut the hell up. Shut the hell up. So that one thing, you're going to kill yourself. That's all you remember from the So the whole day was a 10. That one exercise fell on its face. And so you're going to fall on your sword. Shut the hell up. So you're going to fall on your sword because one part of the day didn't work. Shut the hell up. I'm not accepting it. No, no, no, no, no, no. One exercise didn't work. So your perfect little day didn't work for you. The whole rest of the day worked well for them. go into your corner and stand for 20 minutes with your face to the corner and when you come back and when you come back have a decent assessment of the day no you did well one little exercise didn't work the rest of the day worked 10 out of 10 no you have no right to put yourself down like this no i don't accept it sorry move on Yes, you're right. My whole goal in doing what I do is that I assume it's helpful. I don't want to just put my face on the Internet. Listen, I am not that person. It makes me uncomfortable. Of course it's helpful. What are you talking about? But do you feel that? Because you helped me, and so I'm hoping that other people are. But do you ever feel like that? We all have imposter syndrome. We all do. I ask myself, look, you know, I had this moment, now we're getting into frigging therapy sessions. You know, my whole adult life I've suffered terrible depression off and on, terrible depression, and at times crippling, at times absolutely, and I hide it very, very well. I've been off and on medication most of my adult life, you know, and at times it's been debilitating for me. And I'll be honest, I ask myself constantly, am I a good person? I mean that, am I a good person? I've helped hundreds, thousands of people, but I still struggle with the question, am I a good person? Have I wasted my life doing what I do and the work I do? You know, I get lots of positive, I get a ton of, you know, positive reinforcement, but I struggle with that question constantly. You know, constantly. you know and you have to you know you do what you can to the best of your ability and you have to you know for the rest of it just let it float out into the universe I think you know anyone who works in a helping profession if you don't ask yourself that question then you're a you know you're an arrogant you know narcissistic prick you know I think that's the truth and you know the very fact you ask yourself that question tells you everything you need to know about yourself so do you have advice from the person who you know really made it stick for me how can i and other people trying to help is there something that makes it stick is there something that can help it really have that lasting change no no no because it's not up no because it's not up to you. It's not up to you. Like, no, you can't put that on yourself. It's not up to you. It's up to the person. You know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You know, that's the truth. You know, yes, all you can do is be skilled and bring all of your experience and knowledge and techniques to the moment. But in that moment, if a person doesn't want to change, you cannot change another person. You cannot change another person. It doesn't happen. They have to want to change themselves So all you can do is present them with ideas and techniques and ask the same question a whole lot of different ways in the hope that if they don see it the first time they see it the second or the third or the fourth time And that the skill That the skill that you have to bring you know and so i'm gonna put this on you then listen for my listeners who have been listening and maybe they haven't made the impact that they want we can't go into their home and get a warehouse and pull everything out they're listening to you right now peter what can they do today what can they do while they're listening to this look it's what is what is the vision you have for the life you want. That's where it starts. What do you want from this life? What do you want from this life? That's the first question. What do you want from this life? I want peace. I want harmony. I want a good relationship with my husband, my partner, my children, my parents. Okay, that's what you want. Then ask yourself, and what do you want from this room? You know, that's the, what do you want from this room? My primary bedroom. I want peace and calm and harmony and sleep and sex and intimacy and, you know, whatever. You know, what do I want from my kitchen? I want ease of organization. I want to prepare healthy meals. I want to be able to move easily. What do you want from my life, from this room, from this space? What do you want from, from, from, from? That's the first question. Then ask yourself, does what's in this room deliver on that mission? Primary bedroom, magazines on the floor. Do they create intimacy, closeness, sexy? No. Piss them off. You know, it's like that's where you start. From my closet, I want ease. I want to be able to move easily. Does a closet chock-a-block with clothes give you that? No. Then today, go through clothes that don't fit you, get rid of them, shoes that have dust on them, piss them off. You know, that's, you know, the start is what do you want from your life? And then ask, do the things you own, do the things in this room, help you create the life you want? if they do and if they don't out the door it sounds simple but boy it's tough it's tough too if you're thinking my brain is thinking about spaces like a craft room okay so what do you want from this space you want to create you want to make things well then everything is a promise of something you're going to turn into something and make and that's i think where people or the garage It's like where I want to have all my sporting equipment because I want to be really active. So you've got skis and everything else. And yet you're not doing the things because of the excess. Yet each individual item is staying. However, you also have to accept limits and boundaries. So the thing is, if you're in a relationship with someone and that person doesn't treat you with honor and respect, you don't want to be in that relationship. You know it can't work. It's the same with your house. If you don't accept the limits of your space, if you don't have a good relationship with your space, you can never be happy in that space. Your space will turn on you like a mad lover. and so if you have a craft room and it's full with 20 different things for craft and every space is overwhelmed or your garage is full of 20 different sporting things you can't be happy in that space. So identify the three crafts, the four sports, your focus and honour the limit that that space imposes on you. Otherwise, the craft, the sports will turn on you like a crazy, mad, rabid dog and you can never be happy. Honor the limits of your space in the same way you honor and respect the relationship. That's so good. Okay, I'm going to share my one regret with you. And then since you're like kind of just being radically honest with me and it's it, I want your honest opinion of this. It's OK. Flame me, Peter. It's fine. No, no. I have one regret. And and I look back and I made a lot of mistakes. Only really one. Yeah. One decluttering slash organizing regret. I tried a bunch of products. I wasted money on things that worked and didn't. I'm actually not mad about that because I've really understood now what works for me. And I feel very secure and I have a home that runs like a well-oiled machine and it's never messy. And that's because I failed. And that failure taught me what didn't work so that I could learn what did. But my regret is it took me so long to declutter because I was all one thing at a time and peeling back layers. I wish if I could go back in time, I would have rented a dumpster. And when I think about all the clients I worked with, I wish I just would have rented a dumpster for them. Now, I know everyone's like, oh, putting things in the trash, it's donatable. I wish I could have just ripped off that Band-Aid and started my real life five years earlier instead of wasting it, wading through, making decisions. This is this is what about this? Well, Stu, I wasted so long. I should have just rented a dumpster. What's your question? And do you feel like the people listening, my advice lately to them, again, because I'm losing patience, is rent a dumpster, touch everything. Yes, no. If it's a no, throw it in the dumpster. Don't worry about taking the blankets to the Humane Society and folding the clothes and washing them first before you take them to Goodwill. And why are you trying to list the kids' toys and consign – just start fresh, man. But is that crazy? No, it's not crazy. The problem is that you come up against a huge wall of people who see that as environmentally irresponsible and contributing to landfill, and that's anathema for so many people. But, you know, there's a midpoint. You know, I'm a huge fan of the company 1-800-GOT-JUNK. And the thing I love about them is they recycle in the 90 percentile. So most of the stuff that they take away, they divide up, and we use them all the time on our shows because most of the stuff they take, they break up and, you know, send into all different recycle areas. it's very difficult for people when they have stuff in their house to say all these kids toys I'm just going to throw them in a dumpster when they see value in them and to go from owning to dumpster is often very traumatic versus going from owning to believing real or not to believing they'll get used from someone else. So I understand that, but you're in a very different place than people who are at the beginning of their decluttering journey. I understand that. And I think a lot of people, you have the benefit of looking back after years. One of my favorite sayings is there's a a philosopher named Soren Kierkegaard, and he says one of his most quoted sayings is, life is lived forward and understood backwards. Life is lived forward and understood backwards. And, you know, that's what you're doing right now. You know, you have the luxury now of having gone through that process and looking back and thinking, oh, if only I could have cut out that whole middle process, I wouldn't have wasted all that time but the fact is you're only able to say that because you did waste that time going through that process and I will flame you right now there's a level and I use this word and it's a hurtful word I don't mean it there's a certain arrogance in saying that that you've got to be careful of you know what I mean that it's coming from a place of arrogance and experience, that the people that you're starting with just aren't anywhere near that position. So you have to cut them some slack. If you're going to learn to skydive, you have to start with some tandem jumps. Yeah, you're so right. You're so, I'm just like, I want to help them just skip to the good part. See, that's you. See, but the thing is, it's not about you. You've got to stop this. It's not about you. Yeah. You know, you are like so many organizers who are type A and a very forceful personality. Yeah. Yeah, you are. And you've got to step back. You've got to, it's not about you. It's not about what you want. It's about what's best for them. and, you know, because you can see what's needed. I mean, I step into houses all the time and within three minutes I know what's needed. I mean, and that sounds arrogant, but the truth is, it's like a builder going to a house and sees what's needed for a renovation, but he has to, you know, he has to start talking about drywall and plumbing and, you know, all the rest. Whereas you or I can walk into a house and in three minutes I can tell the people what's needed, But, you know, you can't say that because you have to bring them along slowly. You're right. I'm trying to rush everyone. See, I've lost the patience because I've forgotten how hard it was in the beginning because I'm just seeing it from the end. And my whole life is so much better. Yeah. I have more money and more time. The time is crazy and happiness and joy and pride in myself and confidence. Every single area of my life dramatically improved. And I'm just like, I want this so bad. And I see people struggling and suffering. And this is the thing, like clutter ruins people's lives. Well, the language, you know, you've heard me say that, you know, the language of clutter when there's too much stuff. I feel buried. I feel suffocated. I can't breathe. You know, buried, suffocated. I can't breathe. That tells you everything you need to know when there's too much stuff. It robs you of life. That's all you need to know. But, you know, it's not, Cass, it's, look, you know, one of the things I, you know, one of the terms I used this year on the show, and I used it a lot, are the terms intention and impact. Your intention is pure. You come from a good place. What you intend is good. But you've got to be very careful what the impact is. you might go into this with a good intention but you've got to be very careful what the impact is if you apply that intention blindly that the impact can be not actually good but can be traumatizing you're right if someone is not at a place to just get a dumpster if they're having a hard time putting one chipped mug in a trash bag me screaming at them to rent a dumpster and empty their entire house into it is not effective. No, don't work. Worse, they'll see you as a crazy person. You're right. And we are crazy. And you and I are crazy people. I mean, that's the truth. We come from a place where, you know, in the face of what the world says, you and I are classified as certifiable. We're crazy people. I mean, you know what I mean. You know, we run counter to what everyone, you know, the majority of the world says. we're crazy people and for you to go say let's rent a dumpster you know you give them you know you give that view credit you've got to be careful you're right you're right okay you're right and with like lately the last five years or so minimalism has been like on trend and there's more people talking about decluttering and organizing but i see more people struggling with clutter than ever are you seeing the same thing like despite the message i got back to it's the web. It's this covet. We're in an age of coveting and it's so subtle and so pervasive that people don't even say it. It's from thousands of years old. Here we have another wave. Here we have another wave of coveting. It's obvious. So what I hear from you is the people listening who are really struggling maybe I'm pushing too hard and to slow down and can today can they find five things well you know that's a good start you know it's you know if you want to start you know you know i've always said you know and i go back to 20 years ago you know the trash bag tango you know is the thing i've always you know run around the house two trash bags one of stuff you can donate and one that's stuff that you guys you know trash or recycle you know if two of you do that for one week at the end of a week you have 14 bags of trash and 14 bags of, you know, donate. You know, in a month you have 60 bags. You know, I mean, you know, reverse coat hanger trick. Go to your closet, turn all the coat hangers back the front. After six months, you know, when you wear an item of clothing and launder it, put the coat hanger back the right way. At the end of six months, the coat hanger is still back the front. You know, do you still want to wear that? You know, don't put it down. Put it away. you know I mean no more later stop saying later I'll fold that later I'll put that away later you know I'll file that later you know there are a whole lot of simple but really life-changing things if you implement them can make a massive difference you know leave your purse you know leave your credit cards in the car when you go recreational shopping so that it stops you buying on impulse you know stay off the internet after seven o'clock at night you know i mean that's okay you know it's there's all these simple things you can do that will have profound impact on you know on your shopping you know on your on your consumption you know get rid of five things a day for the next month i mean you know lots of very simple practical things that you can do And in decluttering, something simple that you can do is literally watch Space Invaders because I'm saying this not to I'm putting a bow on this, Peter. But I will say watching that episode of Clean Sweep, one episode of Clean Sweep, changed something in my brain. Seeing someone else, seeing I mean, I knew I had clutter, but seeing it on a screen really was like, oh, I relate to this person. oh, my house also looks like this, and seeing them make that life-changing transformation, and you can feel it when they walk back into their space, it motivated me, it inspired me in a way that nothing else, and I wish we could watch Space Invaders here and the people in the U.S., because it would change their lives. Well, one of the things I like about Space Invaders, and it surprised me after all these years is that you can actually see and that the show you mentioned Diane with all the Christmas stuff even in just a space of two or three days in you can physically see the difference in that person you can physically see them change in the space of 72 hours it's it's staggering how often and it amazed me constantly how they change it's great yeah it and I help people in my community I try to volunteer once a month and I can see the day after the declutter, I come back the next day to do the organize. They're brighter. They stand taller. They're smiling. Their eyes like you're there's a physical change in someone, which is so amazing. And I think that comes through on your show. You can see that in a 40 minute episode. Absolutely life changing. So this is something I'm a little passionate about, and that is I do feel like homes are not designed sometimes with the storage for how people live. We don't have shelves. We have closets. We have kitchen cabinets. Maybe a closet has one bar, and it's like there. Make it work. And it ends up people are putting things down on surfaces, and clutter attracts clutter. And before you know it, you're feeling very overwhelmed. And so while decluttering is life changing, I also feel like sometimes it's not enough. And we do need to add actual storage for the things we use every day, whether that be shelving or an armoire. If you don't have a coat closet, why do homes not have coat closets sometimes? It's crazy. How do you feel on the storage? And when you are doing the renovations in Space Invaders, are you thinking about function and storage for the things that are left? Sure. It's actually a great question. Look, it's a delicate balance, I think. Shuri Barber, who is my co-host who does all the renovations, she and I work hand in glove on exactly this question. And as we're planning, you know, the renovation, she and I talk constantly about the storage solutions. and so in terms of let's just practically closets, often we will talk about reconfiguring closets so there's double hang, for example, to handle. In terms of open spaces we talk about building bookshelves to hold stuff and then as we building bookshelves they will be built according to the you know the bins or totes that will fit within those because they're all, you can buy those in standard sizes. Or we will buy umwares or something like that or recondition those that we'll get at Goodwill stores, strip them back and so recondition those that they will fit as TV stands or as something like that in spaces so that we create storage from existing pieces of furniture. So we will, yes, reconfigure spaces, bring in items, or build stuff to suit spaces. However, it's a delicate balance because the onus is often also on me to declutter so that items will fit the space we have. And this goes back to what I said before about limits. You only have the space you have. That's true. And so often you have to declutter according to the amount of space you have. So if your closet only gives you four meters of hanging space, you might be able to create double hangs so you can reconfigure it so you have six meters of hanging space. But if you have eight meters of clothes, you have to get rid of two meters of clothing. So on our show, I physically measure the closets and then I lay out, I put the clothes on hanging racks. And sometimes the family might have five, four meters of hanging space. but have 12 metres of clothes. That happens. And so they have to declutter down to four metres of hanging space. There's no option. And if they say I can't, I say, okay, so tell me where these are going to go. And inevitably the family gets angry at me, but it's like I'm not the one dictating the space. Your physical space dictates that. And so this is what you have to learn from an early age with children, boundaries and limits. So the thing is you ask about creating storage with children. You have to give kids like three bins of toys. When the bins are full, before you can add one, you get rid of one. birthdays holidays Christmas you go through a declutter process before holidays before Christmas the whole family goes to their closet and gets rid of some clothes off to good wills so you know we have all these holidays you said before about giving things but we don't have one single event of taking things out of the house so create that tradition in your family so that's good yeah so So before major holiday events, all the family goes through toys, books, clothes. So one, you can create storage by reconfiguring spaces or looking at clever solutions. But at the end of the day, you only have the space you have. And so you have to downsize to fit that space because if you don't honor the limits of your physical space, you can never be happy. The space will turn on you in the same way if you don't honor and respect a personal relationship, that relationship can never be happy. That's so good. All right, listen, there's something my entire life, well, since I've known you that I've wanted to ask, but I'm also not sure you even are going to believe this. So have an open mind, Peter. Always do. What I found when I started becoming a professional organizer, I had a marketing strategy that I thought was genius, which is if this doesn't stay organized for 30 days, I'll come back and do it for free. Are you out of your mind? I know. No, listen, it was very stupid. And I kept having to go back and reorganize and reorganize and reorganize. But I and Joe, my husband was like, you got to stop like this is costing you gas. You have to get babysitters. You can't do this. And I was like, I already printed the brochures. It's already on my 500 business cards. It's on the business card. There's no going back. But what I found through this process was that organizing wasn't one size fits all. And some people are very visual. It's out of sight, out of mind. And they actually want to see some things like reminders and bills. And they want to see, they want their toaster out on the counter. And other people are hidden and they get very stressed out by visual abundance. So there's visual people and then there's people who prefer hidden. storage. And then the other side of that is some people are very detailed and naturally put things into categories in their brain. So they're done with a credit card, they'll put it in credit card paid bill, or they'll put it, they have little bibbidi bops and they'll take the time to open a lid and put it where it goes. Other people like me are very much, my brain has moved on. I am squirrel and I just need to toss it away quick and have it go into a container. I can't do lids and I can't sort. The point is that's the whole basis of the four organizing clutter bug style. And you can't put everybody into four categories, but I'm curious for you, Peter, are you more of a visual or hidden person? Do you have things on the front of your fridge? No. Do you have your toothbrush out or in a drawer? Is it out in a little cup or is it in a drawer? It's electric. It sits on the bathroom sink. That's a hard one. Do you need to see your bills to remember to pay them, or are you cool to put them in a folder and have them away? Don't need to see them. As long as there's minimal – like, I'm not a minimalist, but as long as things are ordered and I know where things are, then I'm fine. But I don't have. Would you prefer to see them or would you prefer to not see them? What's the them? So here's an example. Okay, so in your garage, would you want a pegboard with all your tools? Yes. Or would you prefer. It's actually, well, it's funny. It's actually a mix because, you know, I'm a sculptor as well. So, you know, I weld and make a whole lot of stuff out of metal. I didn't know that. Yeah, so I actually have, you know, all the stuff I use most often is right on the pegboard in front, but all the stuff like the welding gear and all that, you know, the welding helmet and all the other less used stuff is in cupboards hidden away. So my garage, you know, is partly very ordered. So if you open the cupboards, all the tools are ordered in the cupboards. But the stuff I use most often is right on the benchtop in front of me. So it's a bit of a mix. it is a bit of a mix but i'm hearing you say that you actually do want to see the things you use a lot and you're maybe like that's fair yes yeah okay and you're detailed so you're a b that's what i call a b organizer it doesn't mean you want to see everything but you're like yeah that's functional that's beautiful that's worthy of its place in my eyesight that's so interesting thank you, Peter. I appreciate that. I've found in my own work that it is helpful to know, not, it doesn't change everything, but there's little nuances that make a difference in designing a home for someone that feels easy to put their things away, that feels easy for them to pick up after themselves because it's complements the way their brain naturally puts things down. You are a person who naturally is detailed. It's interesting. Yeah. And the only reason I discovered this was because what happened when I started organizing for the way people naturally put things down is they stopped calling me to come back and reorganize it. And so it kind of was proven to me like, oh, if I set up a system where they can just walk in, they got groceries, they got their shoes, they can kick things off like they normally do without having to stop and think about putting things away. They don't have to go back later and tidy that space. And so that that's been the whole clutter bug thing. So I'm labeling you a bee, Peter, with a hint of cricket. But I appreciate that you played my little thought. Happy to be categorized. I love it. Look, it's, you know, helping people wade through their stuff is not easy. So you change one life, that's enough. So it sounds like you've changed more than one. Well, thank you very much for joining. I appreciate the lashing I got. You're right. The thing that threw me was the unicorn head on the shelf behind you. stop judging what what was impactful to me is yeah you're right i'm trying to rush people through i'm trying to push them through a door with all my might when i just need to let them crawl the only thing that matters is they go through the door you know and here i am shoving with all my might and they're they're pushing back and i'm not and and so i appreciate this you've had so much experience and this was definitely the message i needed to hear so anytime doll you know I enjoy chatting with you anytime at all. I'm more than happy to talk. Wow. Peter Walsh is intense. I've only talked to Peter a handful of times. Every time I fangirl, because he literally did, he changed my life. He is the reason I decluttered. He's the reason I now want to help other people. I just want to be Peter Walsh when I grow up. But man, he kind of flamed me a little bit. And he was very intense. He's very passionate. it. I also think I needed to hear his flaming message because I do make it about myself a little bit. I'm at this point, I've been doing this for so long, where I just want to help everyone. I'm just like, can we just all skip to the good part? Can we just stop tiptoeing around and just clear out the clutter and all of us have this amazing fresh new start life where we have oodles of time and feel great about ourselves. Can we just skip there? And so I push a little bit harder than I maybe should. And I bring a lot of that tough love. And some people, their feedback is, I love the tough love. But I do think that if you're liking that message and the kick in the pants, you may be a little bit further along in your journey. And you need to hear it because you've already done the tiptoe steps, because you've already crawled a little bit. So now you can get up and run. And I realize in being so pushy and so drastic that perhaps for those of you who are just starting your journey, this can be really off-putting. I say my biggest regret is not renting a dumpster and just getting rid of everything right away. But the reality is, I think if I would go back 17 years and rent a dumpster, I wouldn't be able to put anything in it. I needed the practice. I needed to build my muscle. I needed to slowly prove to myself that it was okay to let go until I can get to this point where I'm like, they could, you can come in tomorrow and take everything from my home and I'd be fine. You don't get there overnight. And I forget that. I forget that sometimes. So I apologize if I've been pushy and sometimes I'm still going to be a little pushy for those of you are ready, but I'm also going to remember to be patient and slow for those of you who are just starting out because it is not a project. It is a lifelong journey and there is no race to the end. I have to take a second to thank today's podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. I talk a lot about decluttering and letting go and we're talking about not giving in to consumerism and here I am talking about buying new bedding, but I see my Cozy Earth sheets as not just contributing to something new, but replacing something with something so much better. The day I switched to Cozy Earth Sheets was the day I realized that I deserve a little luxury in the bedroom. I deserve to have cool, temperature-regulating, soft, gorgeous sheets so that I feel like my bedroom is an oasis, is a retreat. And I also treat myself to their gorgeous pajama sets. Yes, I decluttered my old sheets and pajamas, to make room for these new ones. And right now, if you want to give it a try, if you want to give yourself a little gift this February, head to CozyEarth.com and use my code CLUTTERBUG for up to 20% off. Again, go to CozyEarth.com and use my code CLUTTERBUG for up to 20% off. Now it's time for a quick talk to Cass, and let's start by hearing from Lana. Hi Cass, this is Lana. I just, I had to stop what I was doing and come and tell you this because I was cleaning the kitchen, which was a huge mess, and listening to your podcast. And you were talking about last Saturday when you had a full day thing and you told everyone to go and take something out of the donation pile and put it in the trash. And people freaked out and you cried. Anyway, I wasn't a part of last Saturday and I don't have a donation pile going right now. but you said, go find something right now that you could donate and throw it away. And I was thinking about what I could do. And in the meantime, I'm trying to figure out what to do with this big stack of bananas that someone gave me that are almost black. And I have so much to do, but I don't want to throw these bananas away because I could make bread. I also could freeze them for my smoothies. So I went to get to the freezer and I noticed two more bags of bananas. And I'm like, yeah, but I still, and I just made myself take this big stack of bananas that could be perfectly used for bread or smoothies, and they went in the trash. And it was huge because I'm getting my, my kitchen is looking so good and the bananas are done and I don't have to think I've got to stop and take the time to do it. So thank you so much. I actually love that so much because I used to save all my rotting bananas and I had freezer bags and freezer bags filled. And we have no place for the chicken pot pies or kids chicken nuggets because half of my freezer was filled with rotten bananas. So let's copy Lana and just throw that we have enough. If you don't have the capacity to use them in this moment, it's okay to say goodbye. I'm so proud of you. Now let's hear from Jana. Hi Cass, I'm Jenna and I'm from the snowy mountains of California. You are such the bee's knees. I am overwhelmed with joy because of you. I just moved out of my house that was filled with 25 years of craft clutter. And on top of that, it's not just the girly stuff. We had nuts and bolts and hooks and caster wheels and enough wood to build a small house within our house. Oh, man. I got three 15-yard dumpsters. And, baby, I was ruthless. And you were in my ear balls the whole time. Whether I was actually listening to you or whether you were just in my head going, Jenna, you got this. Do it. Do it, shitty. you perfectionist bee. I probably need to send another voice note just to share all my revelations that have been in this whirlwind of the last month. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you and what you've done for me. I couldn't have done this without you. Yeah. You've made a permanent resident as my shoulder angel and the tough love shoulder as well. Thank you so much, Cass. I love you. Bye. Oh, thank you, Jana. That actually makes me feel so much better because you needed to hear the message about the dumpster and then you like did it three times. That's amazing. I'm so proud of you. And I know I can feel it, how much this has changed your life. And I just, I want you to be really, really, really proud of yourself. And thanks for sharing that too, because that did make me feel a little better after Peter Walsh scolded me. So thank you so much for hanging out with me. I hope there is spaces in your home that feel more beautiful, that you just feel proud of when you look at them, you have this little, ah, because that's what our home is supposed to do for us. And I hope you enjoyed the chat with Peter Walsh. I have to say, I just got a little tough love myself today from my hero, Peter Walsh. And it was really helpful. I needed to hear that message today. I feel better. I feel like I'm going to do a better job and I'm more motivated to help people having heard that little tough flaming from the most amazing man ever. So yeah, don't worry. I'm still going to bring the tough love. I know that a lot of you still need to hear that message. You need me to be tough, but I also need to be patient with those of you who are just starting your journey along with me here at Clutterbug. and I think I can find that balance of both, let's do a little bit at a time, five minutes a day, and what the heck are you doing? You're wasting every moment that you're sitting in clutter. Get up and take action because you deserve it. We can walk both paths. So thank you so much and I'll see you guys next time.