EP6 - We're In A Little Bit Over Our Head

Welcome to Beth's Dead. This is Episode 6. I'm Monica Padman and I'm here with Elizabeth Lame and Andy Rosen. Hello. Hey. Okay, last week we ended hearing the detective made contact and got the emails to stop, which is great. So did that give you guys closure? Kind of at the time. Yeah, sort of. That's really sound like it. We were still freaked out and we were still questioning any emails that came in. Could it still be this person? We were still creeped out. It helped, but yeah. I mean, to this day, like I have to say, doing this podcast, more questions forming even now. So I'm really hoping today will be like a palette cleanser. This is almost a capsule episode. We're about to dive into on Natasha and Anders to characters in this saga that we now know to be characters. Yes. In you, Elizabeth, when we started this podcast said that you really wanted to devote some time to them because of how wacky and crazy it gets or why did you want to devote some time to them specifically? Well, I think it will feel nice to point out how kind of absurd some of it was, whereas when we were going through the best stuff, we really couldn't. And so I am curious to see like your reaction, Andy, to some of them and. They also loomed very large as fans just because they came in super hot with that threesome email that we talked about. And maybe episode one was that or something like that? One of the episodes, and also. So I think from my perspective, I had this funny fondness of these characters. And then for them to then be playing such a big role in the saga was surprising for me. And now I'm kind of like very excited to find out what was going on that I didn't even know with the crazy characters, if you will. But yeah, that's where I'm at with it. For our listeners, the clip we played really early on in the show about a writer-inner who wanted to know about. It was, I think her niece, her sister-in-law seemed fixated on the kid's weight. So I talk about anti-diaculture and body image issues a lot. So now knowing, I mean, it's a genius way in in terms of having a, now I have a question. And she had already kind of endeared herself to us by flattering me. Yes. So that was Natasha who wrote that question. And was that before after the threesome email? It was after. So there was the Valentine's message. And then I replied like, are you kidding? Yes. I don't feel because she then followed up with apologies, which is a pattern of this person. Like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. I said that. I should have never sent it. And then, you know, there are always these follow-ups after the fact. Then she sent her official, totally married question. Okay. But there's also something about it that seems sort of relatable in fandom to. Like, if I hit you up and I'm a fan of yours, Monica. Which we are. And then you hit back. It's one, it's like, oh my god, I actually make contact. But then I'm in my head like, oh, I said something to the, you know what I mean? Like, there's something believable about that. I might need to revisit my email to you. I wonder in the first email I ever sent, ham a big fan. If I did that, I might have. No. Your emails were a class. Your class. Classic. Classy, you said in it, I'm just singing all caps. Your Oprah, which I love. Yeah. I am the one who replied, aha, oh Monica, will you marry me? Like, how thirsty was I to be? You're so thirsty that like, if you get recognized, you're the one that's like, do you want to picture with me? That's definitely happened. And they're like, no, I'm good. Thank you. Come on. Come on. Let's do it for the groom, for your groom. Oh my god, that is so funny. Okay, well, that makes me feel a little bit better. But it is something I would do is, I'm sorry to bother you. I know that was annoying. I just disregard it. And I think you're right. It is relatable. Yeah. Okay, so what we dive in so far with them is the threesome, then the apology, which is the pattern. I'm starting to get this feeling about Natasha and all these people like, what if you just put this creative energy into something else? Good. The awe that I keep getting of like, why, why did you waste your energy doing this? You could have, you could be a novelist probably. I know. Yeah. I love the idea that, what if, okay, wait, bear with me. This is a big, big leap. But it's like, we think we know who it is. But what if that's someone that like Stephen King invented? Like, that this is a bigger, it's like a three steps out like thing. Like this is so much bigger and intricate. I don't love that we're like flattering him this much. I know. I can tell you're because you're right. It is good. I'm a writer. But like, we're poking some holes here too. And it's, it's, let's not drag Stephen King into this. Okay. I found it. Let me read the beginning of Natasha's official question. Cool. Hey, Elizabeth and Andy, I have a real question for you and the other listeners. I promise I'm not just drunkenly hitting on you again. As I mentioned before, I'm Norwegian and I've been both the professional dancer and dance teacher. Also by the way, you love dance, which is, which is also known if you listen to the show. My American sister-in-law has a 15 year old daughter. Her mother is concerned that she's a little overweight and asked me to talk to her about it. So that's the beginning of the email that you heard us discuss in episode one. But what we didn't talk about on the show was the end of this email, which we will definitely want to discuss. Oh, okay. Let me keep going. I've attached a picture of yours truly just for the hell of it. I know what you guys look like, so it feels lopsided. It's a goofy image, but I'll be honest. I don't always look this nice either. That's the magic of professional photographers. And then there's a picture. It's of a woman like Andy. What? I just showed Andy and Rob and they both immediately started laughing because it's so fake. It's so fake. How did I scan across this? I had a little, too. Didn't I show you this? Yeah, I mean, it's ridiculous. It's a woman. It almost looks like a woman on her wedding day jumping up, jumping up for joy. Beautiful blond locks curled into perfection. Yeah, she's jump. It's one of those jumping pictures where, when her legs are behind her, very kind of standard blond pretty. I would say Norwegian. Norwegian. Yeah, even the background, it's like she's at a pond or something. It looks the water. It's like water's not water. It's fake. It's weird. Oh my gosh. I just wish we could go back in time and revisit when you got this and were you like, oh. Well, what did you respond? Well, I want to see what time it was that she, so she emailed at six on March 22nd. I respond at 10 p.m. on March 23rd. 23rd, okay, good. Hi Natasha. Oh, great question. I totally relate to this because growing up we dance and there was so much pressure on us to be thin. I can't. You nailed it. You got me. I kind of shatter at the idea of any mother hounding her daughter over her weight unless it's a serious medical problem. More to come on a future episode of the podcast. Thank you for sending. I think that you're going to start to hear a difference between my responses to Natasha and my responses to Beth. Okay. Where I went full force in. Okay. Natasha, the next day responds very cool. I always look forward to new episodes. I literally just finished the new Totally Mommy. I guess my question is a sort of Totally Mommy question, isn't it? I love you and Vanessa together. Ooh. Also like, that Vanessa's been dragged in. Yes. And also this old guy is listening to Totally Mommy. I know. Oh, I just kind of really got the creeps. Yeah. Okay. Just to clarify, my niece is. Oh, Lord. Just to clarify, my niece is definitely chubby. God. I mean, oh my God. Okay. I think is the word. It's not a medical issue at all. I think her mom just wants her to be popular and have attention from boys and all that. And my niece isn't involved in anything like dance where her weight matters. My mother was unkind, but right, my sister and I couldn't have kept competing if we got fat or something. I got a lot of shit over the years just because I'm very small as a Norwegian. Not great for dancers. I'm very sensitive over this mother-daughter relationship, obviously. One reason I don't think I mentioned I was crushing on you in my very first email is just that you seem to adore your kids. That honestly seems like heaven to me. When I was young, I tried everything I knew just to stop disappointing my mother and I never did. I was always so sad. Great. I just started crying as I type about this. Anyway, now that I'm older, I see that she was a pretty bad person, so I can sort of ignore her opinion of me. But still, it's my mom, you know? I don't want anything like that for my niece. Anyway, I look forward to new episodes whether my question is involved or not, keep up the good work. Again, with like the poking you with emotion, like now I'm crying. You're such a good mom. And some ways it is the same through line of Beth in like getting to you and you're like yeah. And I didn't respond to that. I think I was like, oh, I think I was getting the ache a little bit just from this fan, not never in a million did I think, you know, it was a 60 something man. Yeah. I think maybe because she led with the threesome, you guys are already this person's a little out there. What? Monica? This person is definitely a zirfe planted on the ground and in reality. Not in that photo, though. True. Okay. So you didn't respond. I was the only one that they wanted Natasha and Anders wanted to threesome just with me. Oh, yeah. Not saying anything would be bad about Andy, but it's not out of the realm. It's not. It's not at all. It's not. But I do think that made you a little bit on higher alert of the types of communication you were going to have. Totally. Yes. Totally, totally. A little bit of a boundary knowing that she was in love with you a bit. Yes. And to lead with that, I think was a bold move. It was. I mean, in which he then corrected with Beth. Mm-hmm. Because who knows? Maybe Natasha was the original person he was going for. Right. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. To see this whole thing. And I did the bait. Yeah. And he's, of course, great. I'm Monica. And he had to develop a new character. Yeah. He got to develop a new character. Yeah. OK. So you didn't respond. Then, Anders, hello, I'm a long time listener to a few of your podcasts. I know that my wife, Natasha, has written you a couple of times regarding my brother's wife in an issue with their daughter. I don't mean for one couple to bombard you with messages, but I thought I should say something in defense of my sister-in-law. She's a genuinely caring person who is trying to spare her daughter some pain. It doesn't mean she's not making a mistake, but she's trying. Natasha talked about her own difficult relationship with her mother, but there's no comparison. My mother-in-law is barely human. And just one example, without glasses or contacts, Natasha is almost blind and one eye from a beating th- Oh my god, I feel so bad that I just laughed about what you put in. No, but it's so weird. Well, you laugh because it's made up. It's pretty absurd. But- What a sentence. As just one example, without glasses or contacts, Natasha is almost blind and one eye from a beating. It's like so specific, blind and one eye. Yeah. Well, you have to get specific. It's a good writer here. Yeah, yeah. The details. From a beating from her mother at age 11, to my amazement, not only does her mother not deny that kind of behavior on her part, but she doesn't apologize or even attempt to justify it. I don't know what the proper diagnosis is, but there's something broken or missing in her as a human being. There's a lesson for people. Pay attention to the children you see. Norway isn't some backwards countries, so if even one other adult had noticed what was going on with those girls, they would have been removed from their mother's care immediately. Sorry to be so bleak and thank you for your time, all the best anders. But what was the point of that- Right. That I feel like was it kind of a misstep, honestly? I'm surprised that didn't raise a red flag for you then. Like why is this guy writing in- It's completely- Is compelled to share that she's blind in one eye from a beating from her mom? It's such a wild detail. Protecting the person that Natasha was sort of shitting on too. I don't know. He just wanted to get anders in there. Yeah. But what a weird way to do it. Well, how would you have done it? Yeah. Well, I've been now, this podcast has become about Andy. It's like deciding, yeah, exactly how he would have done this better. What would everyone's plans have been if they were- This show should really be called, like, Cat Fishing 101. Yes. It's just like- It's a handbook. Oh my God. Oh my God. But it's just that email strikes me as so odd. Yeah, no, it is definitely odd, but he's actually- You'll see, as time goes on, he's starting- And I think that Monica, you were exactly right. I think he wanted to take this couple further with me. Maybe it was going to be Anders who died by suicide or- I don't know, but over time, there also was a dynamic between them that really gave me the- As you'll see, like, the fact that he's stepping in on her behalf. Right. Things like this that- Yeah, I wouldn't even- That's annoying even if that's a real person. Like, why are you now- Can you imagine Auntie? Oh. Being like- Oh my God. That thing Elizabeth said, I know- She has some issues- She's blind and one-eyed. You know, they got a lot of leeway being foreign. Like being from Norway. A lot of the stuff that she was saying about, like, she's chubby and if we got fat, I would- I would have- it would have turned me off from an American person immediately. I'm like, well, they have cultural differences. Maybe in Norway, the husbands are so like- Like, stepping in- I don't know. So- Oh my God. Do you think if- If he had planned for it to be Natasha and Anders originally, I bet his goal was that- Anders was gonna fall in love with you some like- And it would break up their marriage. Oh, smart, very smart. Oh my God. They're going to be crazy. Oh my God. Beating me into it. I'm kind of sad he didn't get a chance to- Kind of see that through. I know. Kind of an emotional affair. Yes. Yeah. Oh God, this would have been a very different podcast because- I would have felt like a bad for Natasha, who's already been through so much her mother was abusive. And then be- Really guilty to Andy? Exactly. Was he trying to break up our marriage? Right. Yeah. I do feel pretty left out in this whole- Yeah. I mean, never- He paid no mind to me. He just wanted you and me out of the picture. No, but if I had come- if I like all of this blows up and then Anders emails you and is like your wife and I am a fan. Yeah, now we're not married anymore because of your wife. Yeah. We've been having an emotional affair and you go back through all these emails. Like, if I weren't me and I had taken the bait and like got into emotional affair with this person- That's what he should have done. He wanted to. He wanted to- No, I'm saying that would have been- I'm just a cream with Monica. It would have been a bigger like blow up of everyone's lives, which I think that has to be the goal of this person. I don't- I don't mean we don't know. He just wants to be emotional connection with Elizabeth, I think, in any sort of way. I do think that's more, you know, I know you guys are craving this like that he ruined our marriage too. But I think that that was more of like what a standard catfisher would do, right? Like, there are people online who are falling in love with a woman who lives in Oklahoma who has cancer and then they find out, oh no, it's actually a guy and Pekipsi and whatever. I actually think the Beth version was more creative. Yeah. Well, it got you. That one is the one that got you. Yeah. Yeah, and I think if we're going to psychoanalyze the guy, there is a- there is an obsession with you obviously and maybe a love and there's so much- I don't think he went for that traditional romantic route because he's also dealing with it seems like so much repression through all these characters as well in this like weird way. Like that he would never allow himself. I think he had to have these characters as this guys to express this like infatuation almost with you. Yeah. Also, I wonder what the pieces of all of the characters that are real to him because I bet- Yeah, he's in here. He's in here. What's real? He's that Natasha's the most authentically him. That's my always been my thought. What do you think Elizabeth? Or is it just all of them together like Voltron style? I don't know. I don't know. I feel- Elizabeth is getting uncomfortable the opposite. Well, I am. You just said- Yeah, it's the same obsession and infatuation. It gets- like the creep is creeping back in and we can laugh about that. I mean, it's easy to laugh at myself and read these and be like, what? But, you know, it's never- I don't know. It doesn't feel good to think there's someone who duped you out there, who's obsessed with you. So that's part of my discomfort. Yeah, it's scary. Yeah. We haven't talked that much about that on- on this show yet that what you guys experienced was super traumatic and scary. And now we're doing- Yes. And we don't really know what we're doing and are we opening up a can of worms that we shouldn't- none of us really have the answer to this. Yeah. And it's scary. Yes, but we are going to draw John. Let's see that next email. Okay. Natasha then emails you. So you didn't respond to Andrews. I'm proud of you for that. Thank you. Support for Beth's dead comes from array. You know that moment where you spot your first gray hair. It always feels like it's come out of nowhere. I remember seeing mine and thinking, okay, well, I guess this is starting. And it's never just the color. The gray hair actually feels different. It's coarser. It's a little wiry. They stand out from the rest of your hair. If you haven't had this moment yet, it does show up for all of us. But here's the interesting part. If you could actually slow them down and keep your natural color longer while also getting thicker, fuller, shinier hair, that's where array comes in. 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Okay, that was Friday and then you hadn't responded over the weekend. So Monday you go in from Natasha. I just read the message my husband Anderson, you, I'm so sorry to keep bugging you, but I needed just to make a small correction. He's being a little dramatic by saying my mother fucked up my eye by quote beating me. When I was growing up, my mother did this thing where I would have to get on my knees, then she would hold me by the hair and slap me. It was more... Jesus. Oh God. It was more usually humiliating than painful. I guess I was getting quote attitude when I was 11 because she was slapping me very hard that time. Oh my God. It's fucking crazy. This is one of her long fingernails hit me in the eye and cut it. I don't even know what that part of the eye is called in Norwegian. So I can't tell you in English. Also don't they speak English in Norway? They speak Norwegian. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah, that adds up. Okay. Fuck, check that. I don't even know what that part of the eye is called in Norwegian so I can't tell you in English, but it was an accident. She was still hitting me, but she didn't mean to hurt my eye like that. Anyway, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but quote beating sounds much more extreme to me though what my mother actually did. And I feel lucky that she didn't do that stuff. Anders is right that something is wrong with my mother. She calls her a sociopathal op, but I'm not sure I know what that word exactly means. Whoa. Creepy. This episode is getting so creepy. I'm itchy. I thought this was going to be a laugh riot. I know you were so excited to do this. Yeah, this was really your idea actually, which is kind of wild. Oh no. Oh my God. I don't know what that word exactly means. I get the idea though. I don't know if that's right though. One way or the other, she wasn't a great mother regards Natasha. So I think there's no call to action here. Like it is. Do you respond or like it's weird? It's a weird follow up email. There is a call to action though. Yep. What is it? It's her being so dismissive of horrific abuse. Would normally elicit and response for me. And I think this is when I started. I mean, I'm kind of embarrassed because I think even this relationship I got too deep into, I guess I responded a few times off the podcast. Like it has now moved. She sent that one question into the podcast. Now it feels like I'm supposed to be directing her to therapy or like this is serious like mental health territory that I'm in over my head. And I think I was very aware of that. And so I opted just to not respond. Yeah. That's smart. I think. But very smart. But of course at the time I bet in his head when he wrote this, there's no way she wouldn't respond to something this extreme and vulnerable and bad. Yeah. The fact that he said the sociopath thing is so. Yeah. For two it is. Then you'd responded to Anders. Oh, I did. Yeah. Oh no. But it's okay. It's only one line. You say thanks Anders for the clarification. Exclamation point. That's it. Oh, exclamation point. Well, you don't know. I've gone on a real journey with exclamation points and my emails. I think I was using them more back then and it's a whole thing for excels. Oh, God. There's another picture. Yes. So I will read this and then we can discuss what we think happened here. She says like a week later from Natasha. Oh, this is such a stupid point. But my husband pointed out that the pick. Oh, my God. My husband pointed out that the pick I sent you the other day looked like a stock photo or whatever they're called. Oh, God. Oh. Like I just found a pick of some random jumping girl. Google random jumping girl. So not that you ever asked for a photo. But since I sent you one in the first place, here's a regular pick of me and my husband. I may look kind of gross and Anders has his hair in a style I don't remember, but that's us. Happy Easter to you and your family. Can I see that one? They look very Norwegian. It's the same woman. Oh, yeah. It is the same woman. Now this is interesting. Going back in time, Andy, to when we stopped responding after we realized that one person was all of these people, you know, to Beth and whoever else's emails. I feel like that already happened here. And this was in March, right? He was like, oh no, she saw the stock photo and I've been caught. Yes. But the truth is, I didn't even like, it wasn't even on my radar. Right. Right. I didn't see that photo and go, that's not real. I was just like, oh, Norway. Right. And I do think also not to psychoanalyze again, but I guess it's unfortunately speaks to his skills, the character and developer, but like, she comes across as playing dumb, which I would expect from someone with her history and the abuse she suffered and like to downplay her intelligence to have her husband to run everything by her husband and need him to wow. You know, it's like you and me. Yeah, even this, like I may look kind of gross. Yeah. It's just those, yeah. She looks beautiful. I mean, she looks great in this picture. She looks great. She looks way more real. This looks real. It looks super real, but it is also, it's wild to me that he has the thought to write that. Like I don't look great in. Right. Like it is, it's pretty bonkers, so creepy. Oh my God. Okay. Elizabeth, response. Ha ha. Thank you. You look like a very happy couple, happy Easter. You're keeping it. Yeah. Quick. You're not, you're really not getting sucked in. It's I am impressed. Thanks. Then again, from Natasha a month later. Hello, Elizabeth. How are you? Before a reminder, I'm the Norwegian dancer who wrote you with the question about my sister and law coming to me to talk to her daughter about losing weight. Well, I had to make a decision. I thought about that issue as long as I could and I came to a point I feel really good about. If my husband were here right now to check my English, I would try to explain what I decided. My point is that I wouldn't be bothered if you never answered to my question. I would certainly like to hear what you have to say. So I know if I should start patting my own back or considering another option. But that's for future decisions about my own kids or whatever. For good or bad, I've made my decision about my niece. Keep up the good work. And so we, at this point, I guess we hadn't talked about it on the show yet. Yeah. And so he's starting to panic a little bit because again, like maybe they figured it out. So she's not even going to read the question. Right. It's interesting because that desperation to me feels more like, oh, he really does crave this control. He wants to hear it on the show. Also that. Which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. I responded to her. I said, oh, wow, happy to hear you're feeling good about this. I think it's such a great topic that I'd still like to discuss if that's okay with you. And I mean, it is a great topic that I would want to speak to because I am really passionate about, you know, kind of stopping the cycle of diet culture at our generation and not spreading it to our children. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just Tuesday, Wednesday, Natasha, Hyalisbeth, yes, I definitely still like to hear your opinions on the issue. I'm sure there are aspects I'm not considering, especially since I'm not a parent yet. And as I've said before, didn't have a good role model for considerate mothering. Now that I've bugged my husband into editing my English, I'll try to explain the conclusion I came to about whether or not a mother should tell her child to lose weight. My feeling is that as long as she's not getting dangerously unhealthy, my knees should be able to choose a standard for her own body. If she doesn't mind being a little chubby, then it should be fine. In my experience, kids are mean enough to probably make her feel bad about her body without any help from her mom. Wow. I think the idea of having one quote standard, especially for girls, is really misguided. My sister-in-law, for example, has a beautiful curvy figure, but she would be very heavy for a dancer or athlete. As an unrelated point, I know she doesn't want her daughter to miss out on romantic attention. I got a lot of attention from boys before I was married. I thought they cared about the fact that I was a dancer, what I've devoted my life to. In hindsight, I see that most of them only cared about the fact that I had a dancer's body. So that's the kind of attention I could have done without. Also, I wasn't all that popular in school, even though I was in great shape, because I was pretty quiet and was too busy with dance to have a social life. My niece, on the other hand, is bubbly and fun, so I think she'll be just fine socially, even at her current weight. If she decides to get in better shape, I totally support that. At the moment, though, I feel that she should be supported with whatever body type she wants to have unless it becomes a health problem. I'm sorry to talk so much. I'm really eager to hear what you guys think about the issue. Am I missing something? If I remember correctly, it sounds like you had to think about body image issues when you were younger, and I'm sure you have to after two pregnancies. I've already told you— Oh, excuse me. I think you— Well, I've already told you, I think you're sexy as hell, so you should feel pretty good. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts if you ever get around to it best wishes. It's really creepy knowing, to man in his 60s, that he's writing this. And again, I think I gave a lot of leeway to it being a foreign woman who had been through quite a bit. But there are all these, like, undertones of misogyny with the weight stuff, and like, even her saying, like, I'm sure her friends will shame her. Exactly. It's weird reading this and knowing it's coming through this, like, 60-something conservative male gaze. Yeah. And also with Beth and the, like, slut-shaming and stuff of it all, it's just very misogynistic. Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah. Okay, then Natasha, again, Elizabeth and Andy, thank you so much for the reply to my question about my niece's weight. Okay, so— Hey, Andy! Fine, Mike. It might seem crazy just how much I appreciate it. So this— obviously, you've talked about it on the show now. Yeah. It might seem crazy just how much I appreciate it, especially since my question wasn't even about me, but I'll try to explain. My husband and I are planning on trying for a family in the next couple of years, probably after we go back to Europe. So I've thought a lot about my own upbringing. I'm terrified that I'll be a terrible mother no matter how much I try, because that's what I saw on my own childhood. I've become especially concerned when I disagree with other mothers, I know, like on this issue. So it was very gratifying. It's not only have you agree with my conclusion, but explain it much better than I ever could. It gives me hope that not all of my motherly instincts are wrong. Elizabeth, I didn't think my crush on you could grow anymore, but it has. If there's ever anything I can help you with, don't hesitate to ask. Best wishes, Natasha and then in-pronzies and Anders. No strange. Okay. You respond. Oh, yeah, I say, Natasha, thank you for sending in. Exclamation point. Was this super interesting combo to have with Andy? Exclamation point. That's it though. Yeah. You can tell I'm a little more guarded. You are. Okay. One more thing from Natasha. Oh, God. Elizabeth, I realized as soon as I sent that message yesterday that you were probably looking for comfort rather than a logical defense of the concept of the afterlife. Huh? Oh, that was June. She just heard something on the podcast and- I think so. I think she's speaking to something. Oh, God. Wait, what date is that one? This is June 10th. Okay. There's one from Natasha that starts with, this part is actually Natasha's husband. Oh, yeah. That's for, yeah. Yeah, this is for, oh my God. You get an email, very long email. This part is actually Natasha's husband. Actually she writes her own messages and I only proofread them. This time because there are big ideas here, she didn't want to risk that. So she rattled this off very quickly in Norwegian while she was doing her morning workout and I did my best to translate it. If there are obvious problems here, they're likely my doing. Natasha does know her philosophy very well but I had to rush through my translation so as to not be late for work. Hello, Elizabeth. In response to your question about the possibility of an afterlife in the meaning of this one, I believe there are answers, oh and this will be interesting. Yeah. And so I must have talked about, you know, I'm constantly thinking about afterlife and purpose of this life and all of that jazz. So I must have mentioned that. We don't know what we're saying about the person but we'll say there's reason for us to believe that this man does know a lot about religion. Yes. That's fair. Okay. So then this is interesting. No wonder it's so long. Hello, Elizabeth. In response to your question about the possibility of an afterlife in the meaning of this one, I believe there are answers even without religion. I know that I previously identified myself as Christian but I'm not going to be repeating religious dogma. I don't believe in an afterlife or God because I'm Christian. Like most Scandinavians, my husband and I were both raised completely without religion. I'm Christian because I first came to the conclusion that the existence of an afterlife in God seemed likely. I'm sorry that this message will likely run a bit long but you're asking the most important questions in human history. Also keep in mind that I'm badly summarizing ideas from a variety of philosophers and theologians so these aren't just the theories of some crackpot dancer. Let me first say that I personally know at least a dozen people who have claimed near-death experiences or some form of contact with deceased loved ones. I've never had either and I'm normally somewhat skeptical about such things so that's not the argument I'll be relying upon. Many of those people I trust completely in every other situation though so I'm certainly not dismissing their claims. To start requires a single leap of faith, not at all of the religious kind. Every world view requires faith in some claim, for example, that accurately understanding anything about the universe is even possible given the limits of our senses and brains or that there even is an external world rather than some kind of hallucination. These kinds of things are beyond science's ability to verify. The concept that requires faith in my argument is that for example, the Holocaust was evil as opposed to something that simply happened. Morality is completely beyond the reach of quantifiable science. That should be the tagline for this whole... Oh my god, shouldn't it? Science can explore how we experience morality or how our perceptions can be altered but it absolutely cannot say whether something is good or evil, only whether or not things are true. Oh my god. Are you freaking out? Yeah. It is true that evolution has a reason for implanting within us a moral sense and that many things human's deem right will allow more people to survive and therefore pass on their genes. But there are many things that do not fit that, such as child molestation or slavery, yet we still consider them evil. Human does not quote care about pain and suffering. In terms of evolution, the only question is, am I capable of passing along my genes to children who can do the same? Anything that doesn't affect that is irrelevant to natural selection. There are behaviors that are beneficial when a majority of humans do them but nothing is right or wrong. But I believe that right and wrong are as real as anything. If that is the case, there is already something outside of testable science and existence. So our ability to sense such a thing must come from somewhere other than chaotic natural selection. If one is driving along and sees a series of rocks spelling out danger, cliff ahead, one can decide whether somebody is responsible for such a sign or if the rocks randomly fell to resemble such a message, not at all likely but hypothetically possible. What a person cannot do though is feel the rocks fell that way by chance and still expect the message to reflect reality. Similarly for us to assume our ability to sense right from wrong points to a real thing. Such a sense must come from some other source than the unthinking, random forces of the universe. And a force that has intentions that affected the nature of mankind and that is concerned with matters of right and wrong begins to seem very much like some kind of supreme being or God, doesn't it? If you have followed the argument so far, we can go on to explore the likelihood of some sort of afterlife. If right and wrong existed all, the supreme being must be subject to them as well. While we can imagine many features of the universe being different, good and evil are not interchangeable any more than it's possible that 2 plus 2 equal 5. Even if you ascribe absolute power to this being as many religions do, such a being still cannot do literal nonsense, so this being cannot have decided what is right or wrong and so must be governed by them. Therefore a being or force that created us owes us justice and fairness. This life is clearly not always just and fair and justice inconsistently applied is not justice at all. So there must be some sort of existence other than this one in order for this being to give us all justice and existence where our actions in the present world have fair consequences. Keep in mind that even as a Christian, I'm not talking about heaven and hell as many people seem to conceive of them. No eternal torture or unchanging reward. Beyond giving us justice for our actions in this world, I have no real idea what the next existence is like. I suspect that given our physical brains we have a finite amount of computing power, even if we were shown another existence we would not understand it, at least not in our present form. We must remain in major ways who we are though, because there is no justice in applying consequences to one being for the actions of another. As I don't know what the next world will be like, I don't know that I can fully say what the purposes of this life are other than to say that doing good is the single most important thing. For half the skills and knowledge we acquire here will be useful, but who knows. I don't even know whether or not we will be reunited with our loved ones, but I sincerely hope that is the case. My sister, my only sibling and best friend died of leukemia at age 21. Of course I have moments of doubt and worry that I will never see my sister again. I cannot speak for you, but in my case I have to recognize that this feeling comes from fear and not from any new piece of evidence making me rethink the odds. By the same token I sometimes fear that something terrible will happen to my husband or future children, but there is no rational reason to think so. Reminds sometimes just naturally go to the things that we find most horrible. Thankfully in this case reality is what it is regardless of how we feel. That's one reason I reject the notion that an afterlife is quote too good to be true. Just because loving relationships or health are so good doesn't prove that I don't have these things. I imagine that you've heard all of these ideas before. There are many approaches to your question other than the one I have used here, but this is the one that helped fundamentally change my world view. If you have any follow up questions I'd be happy to try answering them. Whatever conclusions you come to I hope that doubt and fear though they never entirely go away, stop being a problem for you. I think you deserve that much. Regardless Natasha. I have so much to say. Do you have something to say? Yeah, I mean right out the gate with so wild about this is he does want this to be coming from Natasha. Okay, but he put this shield on that Anders is going to write it and pardon my translation in English because this isn't going to sound like Natasha's voice because guess what you were talking about. Let's just make up a subject. Oh, I heard you were talking about bowling. Oh, shit, I'm a professional bowler. Yeah, I need to weigh in on this. This is his mind. This is him. This is the first time. Yeah. And he's got himself right. And but interesting he wants it to be known as Natasha and but he has to have this cover like they can't sniff out that I'm a professional whatever. But yeah, really needed you to hear this. But if I had I mean I even felt like oh, we're giving him this is like his manifesto and we're giving him a platform. A hundred percent. Like the thing that I find really funny that maybe you guys will appreciate. I remember getting this and at this point I was like these people and this is so fucking long. I mean I got through like maybe the first eighth of it and hit the eject button. I would have never read this whole email. I did not read the whole email. I did not read this whole email in any way shape or form. And I replied, thank you Natasha. I really appreciate this very interesting perspective. Yeah. But like I'm obsessed with afterlife stuff and if I had read it like even getting to the Holocaust with evil is opposed to something that simply happened like all of that stuff. I mean if I had read it I think I would have thought this doesn't sound like Natasha even translating as Anders. I think maybe this would have been a bit of a red flag for me but who's to say I mean at this point. Who knows. But wow that's crazy to hear all that. But like the him dreaming up of these shields that's pretty clever to do and that raises other questions for me too of like wow this really maybe isn't your first rodeo. Do you know what I mean like fucking with people like this right because like that seems like such a clever safety net to put in for yourself. Well yes I mean you're still you're like so fixated on a cleverly. No but I don't I think that's the wrong word and I know you're getting like a little frustrated about about that but I think it is it's just interesting getting in the head sort of and I haven't seen these details or heard these details before and he's like it's just it's all crazy. The scope of it is deep like it's really layered what he's done. Yeah I feel like he showed his cards a little here in a way that feels a little sloppy to me but I do feel like we did just read his manifesto when I was reading and I was like this feels like something after someone does something really bad and then they leave it. Yeah totally and I also find it really interesting that it's all about right and wrong and also it's all about there being justice in this lifetime which maybe this is me being such a fool. I think his sister died of leukemia. Oh interesting. I feel like this is him and then he fixes it a little at the very end bringing it back to Natasha. I do. Yeah Natasha is going from like I don't know the word for I or like retina to and I couldn't possibly figure it out by quickly you know whatever and like sorry I'm just like I don't know my husband has to do it to this like insanely I mean this is like like you know it's funny. But Andrew sees translating it though. I know. Yeah yeah yeah don't forget that part. Okay so then you just said what you said the one little line and then another email Elizabeth I realized as soon as I sent that message yesterday that you were probably looking for comfort rather than a logical defense of the concept of the afterlife I suppose I've just spent too much time debating philosophy and wouldn't you know I left up the most important part of my argument the part that may actually be what you're looking for I blame it on the fact that I was starting to run out of breath but that's no excuse. Oh right she was working out. She's on the treadmill whatever right right but in Norway they're like wooden treadmills they're not it's like a manual treadmill. Oh yeah. Also can you imagine me going like the treadmill saying what? Oh my god okay I said I didn't know if we would be reunited with our loved ones in the afterlife but it only meant that in the literal sense that nobody knows that for certain I should have stressed that I believe that there will be such a reunion I believe it as strong as I believe that you're a real person and not just a series of audio and visual cues coming from my computer. Again that's not merely because I'm Christian. If you followed my argument that morality is real and points to some kind of God and those things together point to some kind of afterlife there's one step further. Virtually every moral code ever has said that loving those close to us is not only a good thing but the absolute best thing. It just doesn't make sense that we could spend our lives cultivating that only to be forever separated from the objects of our love. So yes I absolutely believe that while we can't say much else about the next life you will be reunited with your friends and family. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Okay then Anders. A sincere apology from Anders. Elizabeth. Oh my god. Minutes ago I responded to another listener's post in response to the question of an afterlife. I'm afraid I sounded unduly aggressive so I would not be offended if you don't post it. Frankly though as someone who works in a scientific field I've grown very weary of people trying to use science to answer ethical or philosophical questions. That works about as well as using Beethoven's fifth to fix your plumbing. And in America I've been shocked at the number of people who believe that science has disproven religion or is inherently religion's enemy. I can't fathom the number of potential scientists who have kept away from the field because they're constantly told it's antithetical to their worldview or how many atheists stop asking existential questions because they assume science has answered them. It hasn't and can't. A half-way decent scientist knows what questions or discipline can or can't answer. Anyhow I really don't want to start a fight on your site so feel free to trash my response regards Anders. I wonder who he was responding to. Wow. Okay. Now that your response of thank you Natasha I really appreciate this very interesting perspective. That was Monday June 13th. So a month earlier is when we got that first email. Oh. Whoa. That was a doozy. Yeah. That didn't. You literally thought this was going to be like the time. Yeah you could say it. I think it's really fun. It's the exact opposite. It really is. I thought this was going to be not what it was. I'm glad that we did dive into these though because I think I gave me a better perspective. This is not where I thought we would land after reading all this at all. Even talking about this and me even saying this. I'm scared to even vocalize that because I fear that it's a challenge for someone to go. We are in a little bit over our head. We at Armchair X-Word have never done a show like this. You guys haven't done any. We could be fucking up. I don't know. We could be messing with something that shouldn't be messed with. I don't know. It's interesting because we have so much time now has separated us and this. But knowing that he's still out there and we think we're talking about it is... But are we putting this out there? I mean, look, I think I don't know that you guys are going to love this. But so many questions have come up over these past episodes we've been recording. And I really think it's important for you to have answers. So I really think we need to make contact with him. If you want to listen to all the best dead ad free, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can also chat with other listeners, watch live streams, get bonus episodes and more. That's at patreon.com slash best dead. Best dead is presented by Armchair X-Word's Monocapadmin and nobody's listening, right? It is produced and edited by Andy Rosen, Elizabeth Lane and Monocapadmin, additional engineering by Rob Hollis and Usakin Sound by Andy Rosen.