Before Sunrise

At EDF, we don't just encourage you to use less electricity, we actually reward you for it. That's why when you use less during peak times on weekdays, we give you free electricity on Sundays. How you use it is up to you. EDF. Change is in our power. The year is 1995. Have you ever heard that as couples get older, they lose their ability to hear each other? No. Well, supposedly men lose their ability to hear higher pitch sounds, and women eventually lose hearing on the low end. I guess they sort of nullify each other or something. I guess. Nature's way of allowing couples to grow old together without killing each other. The movie Before Sunrise. Hello everyone and welcome to Unspooled. Yes, welcome to Unspooled. This is a podcast about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must-sees, and in case you missed them. We have covered the AFI Top 100 and now we are checking off movies from three major lists. The Letterbox Top 250 films with the most fans, the IMDb Top 250, and the New York Times 1000 Central Films. And we will also be chasing our own curiosity too. And Amy, Love is in the Air, and this is our Valentine's Day episode, which brings us to Before Sunrise. I mean, I cannot wait to talk about this movie. I am Paul Scheer. I'm an actor, a writer, and director, and I have to say a person who has changed their opinion completely about Ethan Hawke from when this movie came out originally in 1995 to 2025. Good. Catch up, catch up, catch up, because you know that I am from the dead poets generation who loves him and has always loved him and will never not love him. Hello, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm the film critic for The Los Angeles Times. I had my first kiss on a European vacation. It's pretty weird. I had my second one on a European vacation as well, also pretty weird, but treasured memories. Oh, Amy, I need to get into these kisses. But this movie, how did it affect you? Just before we even get into the whole breakdown of it, is this a movie that you kind of grew up with? Because we're roughly in the right age group for this film. Yeah, weirdly it isn't. This is a movie that came to me much later in my early 20s when I was like spending the night at my friend's house as everybody had this on VHS tape. We definitely started watching it then, but I didn't watch it in the 90s, honestly. Interesting. So this is a movie that I really feel like I grew with. And I'll tell you this. I went to go watch Before Sunrise and I said, well, you know what? Maybe I'll just watch a couple minutes of Before Sunset at the end of this. And I watched the entire movie. And I was like, you know what? I really want to just watch a little bit more. I'll watch just before midnight. And I wound up watching all three movies back to back to back. And I started watching them at 11 o'clock at night. So I was up late and I was riveted the entire time just watching them, never watched them back to back to back like that. Oh my God. I love that you did that. I was really tempted to do that. And then I thought, oh, but maybe after we do Before Sunrise, I can convince Paul that we should do those two next night. Oh, I'm ready to go. Hold off so they'll be fresh. Well, I'm not. I'm not. I didn't really watch them. Well, I mean, I'm just saying I'm ready to go and do it in the future. I'll gladly rewatch them. It was, but there's something really beautiful about this trilogy. And we will be just talking about the first one. But the idea that we have kind of grown with these actors and these characters. And I mean, I really hope there's one more. I think that there should be another one. And I would love to see it. Last night, I think I really left, you know, my watching going like, we're due, we're due for one more. Right. Can't there be one more? I mean, there probably could be because if there's this interesting paradox of Richard Linklater's career, it's that he likes to make movies that are set in one day, but then the story itself takes place over decades. Yeah. I feel like the interesting thing about Linklater, and we'll again break this all down, is he is captured conversation in a way that makes it just as riveting as any sort of film. We've seen the bad versions of conversation in film. And I feel like there's only a few directors that can take very relatable, low stakes conversations and give them the same kind of energy that you might feel in a movie, like a trial film or something like that. Like you're just, you're on the edge of your seat. I think it's a very unique and hard to do thing. Yeah. To do that, to have them feel relatable and fascinating at the same time. Because, you know, relatable conversations, you listen to my relatable conversations, it's me singing songs about my cat to my boyfriend and us just making nonsense words. Okay, everybody, let's switch gears for a second. We need to talk about something that is probably more exposed than your questionable browser history. Let's talk about your online data. Okay. I mean, I get genuinely stressed when I log into hotel Wi-Fi or even plain Wi-Fi. That's where surf shark VPN comes in. It is your go-to solution for secure internet access. Surf shark creates a virtual private network that encrypts your entire internet activity, hiding your IP address and making your online activity invisible. It's essential when I'm working in public. Right. It protects me from anyone trying to snoop on my data. So if peace of mind is as huge for you as it is for me, then you are going to want to try surf shark because here's the best part about it. 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Now we see his whole career, right? But 1995. It's a different time. In 1995, Richard link later is thinking about a girl that he once met. It was a chance encounter at a Philadelphia toy store six years before. It's kind of bored, but you know when you're on the road or anything, you're kind of open for stuff. You wouldn't be at home. And the, you know, behind the counter is kind of flirting with these things really nice. Just really friendly. We were talking a little bit and then you know, it's like, okay, bye. I walked away, you know, left and I was like, you know, crazy idea. But I went back and slipped her note and said, Hey, you know, I'm here for a night. If you want to get together, she's like, yeah, sure. I get off at 930 years. So we just ended up walking and Philly's a good town. We just walked around all night till the sunrise. Now he was an aspiring filmmaker from Austin at this time. He just finished shooting his first film, a film I've never seen 1988. It's impossible to learn to plow by reading books. Have you seen that? I haven't seen it. He basically filmed himself as a guy on an Amtrak train riding around America. He shot it on super eight for about $3,000. Not that many people ever saw it. I think it's a special feature on some of his other movies. Okay, got it. Yeah, but it's the next year that Linklater will premiere his actual breakout movie, Slacker. But right now at this moment, 1989, he's just a guy. She's just a girl from a toy store and they spend the night walking and talking and flirting. And at some point during the evening, you know, the conversation is going so good that Linklater tells her, I'm going to make a movie about this. And she's like, what this? What are you talking about? And he says, just this, this, this feeling, this thing that is going on between us. And finally they say they're goodbyes and they promise to write each other and try to pull off some sort of long distance connection. But then they lose touch. And yeah, then Slacker comes out. It's a pretty big deal. It's a big enough deal to get Linklater a real budget to make 1993 is days in confused. That's a movie we've done on the show. And then Linklater says, OK, I'm going to keep my promise. I'm going to make that movie about two strangers having this intense one night connection. And hey, maybe this girl will hear about the movie. Maybe she'll come find me. And now first he needs to write a script about this couple, Selene and Jesse, who are on a train and spend the night strolling Vienna. He reaches out to his actor friend, Kim Crieson. She's played a couple of small parts in his movies. We've actually heard her in days and confused. She's the teacher right here in the scene. One more thing. Hey, this summer when you're being inundated with all this American bison, tenial fourth of July, Bruja, don't forget what you're celebrating. And that's the fact that a bunch of slave owning aristocratic white males didn't want to pay their taxes. And Kim had a similar deal with this Norwegian guy that she met while she was on vacation in Paris. So she says, I have a perspective on this. He wants her perspective on this. They both combined to make sure that the female character does not feel like some kind of male fantasy. And they write the script in 11 days, right? It's just it just kind of flows out. I feel like in the 90s, that's all we heard were like these directors like Kevin Smith and Richard Linklater, they're just like shitting out scripts over a weekend. It's like that John Hughes style of script writing. You're how did you do it? It took so quick. That's still how Warner Hurtz likes his e-writes, too. I think he's like, if it takes you longer than a week, it's probably wrong. Wow. And now, even though they wrote the script in 11 days, casting takes nine months. Yeah, Linklater cast the Celine character first. He cast the French actress Julie Delpy. She was discovered at 14 by the director Jean-Luc Godard. Maybe not so coincidentally, Linklater loves Godard. He made a movie about Godard this year, Nouvelle Vogue. And then he comes around to cast an Ethan Hawke as Jesse. And at first, he thinks that Ethan Hawke is too young because this is Ethan Hawke who is he's like six years older than the last time we talked about him. Boarding school kid, 1989, dead poet society. He's just made reality bites. He's just coming into his own as a movie star. But, you know, I think when you look at the two of them on screen, they seem perfectly age appropriate, right? They no one feels younger or older than the other, at least in my opinion. Yeah, I think Delpy's a couple months older than him. But honestly, they're both just beautiful. Yeah. And this movie is shot for 2.5 million. It premieres at Sundance. It makes 22.5 million, becomes a trilogy with two more films, which I did watch last night about Jesse and Celine. And those are, of course, before Sunset and before Midnight. Before Sunrise is 192 on IMDB's top 250 films and 42 on Letterbox top 250. Yeah. And if you're looking at the whole trilogy before Sunset is 182 on Letterbox and the New York Times 1000 essential films, it just looks them all together by listing only before Midnight. I don't mind that. I don't mind them being put together because you get in that weird zone. We've talked about this before where it's like, well, which one of the Lord of the Rings or which one of the Star Wars is like, no, this is, I think trilogies can live together. But here's the thing. The sad part of this story is the girl he made this movie for never gets in touch, not after the first movie and not after the second movie. No. And then in 2010, Link Letter hears from a woman who says, wait, I heard about you. That was my friend you made the movie about. And she died. This is him actually getting asked about it when before Midnight comes out. Did the woman you met in Philadelphia see the movie? No, never saw it. And it's a really sad story, but I told you I'd be completely honest. It's not horrible. It's I didn't know this two years later. The third movie is dedicated to her. If you look at the credits, it's like in memory, Amy Lerhawk. And in the letter, she said, oh, you know, Amy died in a motorcycle accident. Mother's Day weekend, 94. So before we were in Vienna, even, isn't that because we met in 89 and that was some of the force of like five years later. You can check out. But that's a sad story. I remember almost crying. I called up Ethan and he's like, well, you know, we're all like, we're all each other's angels. Had you never met her? Maybe we wouldn't know each other. We would never work together, you know, so be yourself. Put yourself out there. Be your authentic self. You just don't know. But it was a slick street. She had a helmet, the motorcycle, the driver. She went on the back. But he was fine. It was just kind of a freak headed dream. On that note. Wow. What that poof. That is. That's the we're going to start on this level. But you know what? My heart is open and I can take it. And I was thinking about this in watching the film, you know, this movie is so beautiful and it ends on this very hopeful note that they're going to meet up in five months, right? And they don't exchange numbers in there. It's so romantic, what they're doing. But so much could happen, right? So many things could go on. Well, I think there's this idea also, too, when you are this young and you have so much world ahead of you, that this moment is great, but maybe it won't be the best moment ever. Maybe you'll just have moments like this every month. Maybe you'll meet another person you could love six months from now. Maybe maybe your future is just going to keep on an upswit and you don't necessarily know if this is the best it'll ever be. I mean, this really sad story about about the one from Philadelphia, the woman named Amy, who passed away. It almost captures that sense of really needing to understand that time is more precious than you think it is when you're young. I also believe that. You know, now the sight that we live in with our phones and cameras and everything, we are so ready to stay connected to document everything that looking back on this film, it's such a beautiful moment because it can be fleeting and some of those great nights that the best nights I've ever had in New York with friends when I was young and single. Were nights where there is no proof that they happened, right? They just happened. You live them and part of that like life experience. I love this moment in the movie towards the end where Ethan Hawke says, like, I want to take a picture of you and it just stares at her face. I love that. Like, like we are so trained not to do that anymore. We have to stay connected. We have to be in these moments where we are going to continue something. But there's something beautiful about just letting it go, letting it just be what it is. Wait, I love that moment. I'm so happy you brought that up because yeah, I expected him to pull out an old camera. Me too. Right. Me too. I take like, we didn't even have the world, we're selfie in like 1995, but to take either a picture of her or, whoa, modern shocking to turn the camera on and try to take a picture of the two of them together. And you wouldn't even know if you both made it into the frame. And I thought, oh, that'll be cute. They'll have the one photo left. And then no picture. Like no, the idea that you have to do the active work of remembering her face on your own and you can't outsource your memory to your phone, which is something I definitely do all the time. I'm always outsourcing memories to phone. I'll go to events and I'll take a picture that I know isn't even that good of a picture because I just know if I look at a picture of that room later, I'll remember what happened that night. But I'm aware that that's also kind of screwed up. Like I don't trust myself to remember the room if I don't take a picture of the room. And I know that I can't remember everything that happened, but I have a, I think I have a really like locational memory. I don't know how your memory works, but like if I can't remember a movie that I know that I saw, but I can remember the theater that I saw it in, then I can picture where I was sitting and then the movie will come back to me. You kind of build it out like you, like kind of start from the outside and go in in a weird way. Right. Exactly. And I've never been a diary person at all, but I do like to take random pictures of my days. Oh, see, that's a good habit. And I got a one line a day journal and it's been great. And I carried around with me one line a day. It takes off the pressure and it just gets you in that habit. But I do think that one line, does it work like the way of like a photograph would where it just whatever jumps out at me in that day? Like I'm not looking at it like, how will this remind me of this moment in five years from now, as much as it's like, this is what I want to remember from this day. And maybe there'll be a context clue in there. I will know years later. I mean, you know, right now I'm just writing down what happened. I could tell you what happened on January 12th. I can remember it because it just happened. But like, you know, I think that time will only tell how these little things will either reignite or just be duds. Well, yeah, I think that, I don't know, memories are kind of like little bits of pearls or rocks or strands. Like if you can find one, then you can find the other one. But if you didn't leave them any place you can find them, then the whole memory might vanish. Little Hansel and Gretel action there. I mean, I am a hungry duo with some candy. Well, this is exactly what I was wrestling with when I was writing my book. Like these are stories that are true to me. Now, are they exactly the way that they happen? There is no way to know because even someone else's perspective of that moment is going to be skewed by their perspective, right? So we are constantly, you know, we're in this eternal Rashomon. We can only tell what the emotional truth is. And I feel like that's important. And I think that's a really beautiful thing. There is no truth. It's just the way that you feel, the way that you were. And I think that that's, you know, important to remember, you know, everybody is looking at it through their own lens. Yeah. But isn't that fascinating that we're going back to this movie set in the 90s before they're even picturing how technology will work its way into our memories and become a way of outsourcing our brain? Like I think of technology as an external hard drive remembering my life for me. Like remembering my friends phone numbers, remembering how to get in touch with them, remembering all the emails I've ever sent them, like going through my old text. Birthdays, whatever it is. Yes. Yeah. But I think that this is what the movie is about, too, because he writes this book. Richard Linklater makes this movie and that is dealt with in the in the next chapters as well, like the memory of this night. You know, Celine obviously is upset about certain ways that she's remembered because it's his memory of it, right? And this is Richard Linklater's memory of this moment. But he's at. But what he's doing is capturing like more of the feeling of the moment, not the reality of the moment. Well, yeah. And there's even that little aside in here. And I love it because it's 90s looking ahead at future dystopia, where I think it's Ethan Hawke is making fun of how we trust that technology will enrich our lives and make them better. And it is it. You know what drives me crazy? Fuck. There's at least people talking about how great technology is and how it saves all this time. But what good is save time if nobody uses it? If it just turns into more busy work. Yeah. Right? I mean, you never hear somebody say, well, you know, with the time I've saved by using my word processor, I'm going to go to Zen monastery and hang out. I love that. It's like more time to do what, right? You know, it's like it's saving time, but it's not creating anything more. And I love this idea of like travel as a means of escaping routine, finding connection. Like this idea, like he's lost. So he gets more lost in the hopes to be found. And, you know, now we're so caught up in our own, you know, we are never far away from anything. We're not even far away from our friends. You know, we're seeing pictures of what they're up to. We are being able to send an email in a moment's notice. But do you remember like when sending an email, you'd have to go to like an internet cafe or like, you know, to check in what was going on. Like, yeah, I studied abroad in Sweden when I was in college and I would have to walk like, oh, good to sound so crazy. I would have to walk like 15 minutes in the snow to send an email to my long distance boyfriends. They were written like I was on a ship in the middle of the ocean. Oh, my love, I have traveled so far to say how was your day? Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. 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I do think that there is something about this movie that is incredibly analog. And I hate to use that term, but it's like, it's about getting into a zone where they don't have Yelp on their phone. They don't know where to go. They're just bumming around. They're letting the city inform them of what to do. And we're seeing that now come back. Like, here's the non phone phone. It has nothing on it. So you don't have to worry about it. They just pictures and music, right? We are constantly trying to get back to this thing of just existing, looking around, using your eyes. And I love that moment in this movie that kind of, I feel like encapsulates them both experiencing something when they go to listen to that album, when they're in the record store, they both just kind of standing there, listening to his album. They're connecting over this piece of music, but they're in the same space. It's affecting them. There's a wind that blows in from the north. And it says that loving takes this course. Come here. Come here. No, I'm not impossible to touch. I think it's a beautiful thing. They're both incredibly present. And even within media, they can be present within media. And I feel like, you know, we see that every now and then when someone shares an earbud with you, but I do love that. That's what we want. We want to be connected to people connected in the way that we watch art, then connected in the way that we, you know, find these commonalities. And sometimes I think technology is racing to find the commonalities that we don't have the fun of exploring and finding them out organically. They're sharing art together, right? They're like experiencing it together. I mean, I guess the only other scene I could think of recently, that's like that is in Garden State where she's like, here, listen to this album. Right. Yeah. But I guess that sense of art as an thing to be actively consumed and not just put on as background. Like I get really horrified by the fact that it feels like Spotify. There's this really great book about Spotify and why Spotify is evil. And I say this having a Spotify subscription. And I say this, we're probably playing on Spotify right now. Definitely. But like, you know, thank you for all your comments on Spotify. Thank you for your comments on Spotify. But the idea that Spotify has a very lucrative corner that's just chill, fire, low study beats with absolutely no personality that you're not really supposed to listen to, that they function, I guess the way that I use Spotify, which is 10 hours of continuous rainstorm. That's my Spotify playlist that I'm always doing. 10 hours of continuous rainstorm. I love this. Yeah. But this thing that you're talking about is a scene about being really present with art, which I think we're longing for and about being present with us, us even watching that scene. Because I'm watching that scene and I'm looking at how he looks at her and then looks away and she looks at him and they look, they look away and is you going to kiss her and is he not. And we're watching them with, I think, that same level of fascination. Like we trust them to put on an album and be in the moment of experiencing it. And Linglater trusts us to put on this movie and be in the moment of experiencing them. Yeah. And I feel like this part of any relationship that, you know, for lack of a better term, the meat, cute, this moment where you're like, wow, I really like this person, this immediate attraction is a bit fake and forced to write. We are projecting a certain version of us. We are maybe asking things that we wouldn't really normally ask. We're allowing ourselves to kind of push the boundaries and the limits. And you see the boldness in them. And, you know, when Jesse asks, like, you know, what was your first sexual awakening? But then you also see the shyness when she asks him, like, have you ever been in love? Like, he doesn't want to go there. He doesn't want to talk about that. Like, like there is this constant push and pull of who we are pretending to be and who we are actually. And those fears and anxieties. I mean, even that moment when they first kissed, like you talked about, like, you want them to kiss so much, but you know that they're just like, is this too much? Am I pushing too much? Or is am I reading it right? Like, there's so many of those moments in this film where the audience is getting to see what's going on in their head without them ever stating it because they don't break off and talk to friends. Although that scene is amazing when they do pretend to talk to friends, which I think is a brilliant choice. I love it, especially the way you get to hear Julie Delpy make fun of an American bro accent. I usually get this guy's answering machine. Hi, dude. What's up? Hey, Frank, how you been? I'm glad you're home. Cool. Yeah. So how was Madrid? Julie Delpy is amazing. And I I do want to just go back to what you're saying about this idea of memory, because I do think part of the first time you do anything with your partner. And when I think back to the first time I met my wife or the first night that we kissed, it's magical. Right. It's magical. And and I believe that that's the way that movies have treated this. Right. We are we are creating this memory. Oh, my gosh, this is a perfect night. We all want this moment. Right. Doesn't the palm reader even say like they're in the presence of memory? You know, like this is like they are aware that this is something bigger than them. And they actually overly romanticize it by not exchanging phone numbers. Right. They're they're like leaning into this artistry, this kind of fakeness of romance. And I don't say that in a anti-romantic way. But I think the the artifice of what true romance is, it's sweeping, it's we will find each other. We are together. Like they both are leaning into it so much. Well, they're leaning into it and they're pulling back to right. You know, like they're aware that oh, is this just going to be a story? Is this just going to be silly? You know, let's not lie. Let's not dilute ourselves. I have a whole conversation about not deluding themselves that they can manage to keep in touch. Tonight's it. Huh? I mean, that. Tonight's your only night. It's the only way now. All right. Let's do it. No delusions, no projections. We'll just make tonight great. OK, let's do that. OK. But I like what you're saying about presentation and artifice. I mean, the first night that I ever kissed my boyfriend was like our weird outlier. We were just making fun of it the other day at a grocery store for some reason. Like where, you know, my boyfriend is not much of a drinker. And he was like drinking whiskey with me to keep hanging out with me. And I had this image that he was a whiskey drinker. And he's never had whiskey around me ever since then. It was just like a way of hanging out. And I thought we were going to be a whiskey drinking couple. Absolutely not. Didn't Adam make a special whiskey for Archer? I mean, I have that in my cupboard. Yes. Wow, there we go. He did. I don't think he's ever had it, though. He doesn't even drink his own supply. I can't believe it. No, man, a guy doesn't like whiskey. I could have fooled me. But yeah, you're like reading all these things into the moments of your first connection with somebody. I mean, here I'm reading into it. Like they're waving some green flags. They're waving some red flags. When Ethan Hawke doesn't want to tell her whether or not he's been in love before, he's like, well, I've said it, but maybe I didn't mean it. And she's pausing to look at him and be like, how much do I read into a guy who doesn't know what he says if he means what he says? Well, I also feel like these are two very smart characters. And I can honestly go out on a limb and say, I don't like Jesse. Like I don't like him in this movie. I grow to like him. But he represents to me an energy of somebody who in 1994 and even now I'm like, oof, like I was so on team Delpy side watching this last night. But I think it represents these ways of looking at the world. Like he's he is aware and very versed in, you know, cultural works. Be incredibly intellectual as a she. But they so they are both kind of putting up these walls. Like we're smarter than falling in love, although they are falling in love. And that's why I think the end is so beautiful because they admit to each other. I do want to keep in touch. We need to get we need to see each other again. Like that that's like such a release valve in the movie because you're like, yes, you fucking idiots. Like this is something that you should chase down. Like don't let this go because you're over intellectualizing it. And we all have that ability to, you know, be like, well, it will never work. Oh, well, this is wrong. Oh, this is not going to this makes no sense. And when they actually just give into it, that's what I think is so fulfilling because it's when they're the most vulnerable. Listen, you know, all this bullshit we're talking about, not seeing each other again. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that either. You don't need. I was waiting for you to say something. I was afraid maybe you didn't want to. All right. Well, listen, listen, what do you want to do? Maybe maybe we should meet here in five years or something. All right. All right. Five years. That's a long time. It's awful. It's like a sociological experiment. How about one year? One year. All right. When? How about six months? Six months. Yeah. It's going to be freezing. Yeah. Yeah. Is it come here? We go somewhere else. OK. OK. I mean, in a way, what they're playing acting for us in this one day long is our own our own struggle with like distance and attachment and being worried about getting hurt and putting up walls and being really flinchy. And I love kind of reading into the layers of how they approach this differently, because I think she's I think she's bolder than he is. She's braver than he is. He's the one who's like, come off the train with me. This will be crazy. Let's do this. Let's do this. You know, someday when you're older, are you going to look back and want to know that I would have let you down, which I think is such a funny way of arguing. Jump ahead. 10, 20 years. OK. And you're married and only your marriage doesn't have that same energy that it used to have. You know, you start to blame your husband. You start to think about all those guys you've met in your life and what might have happened if you picked up with one of them. Right. Well, I'm one of those guys. That's me. You know, so think of this as time travel from then to now. To find out what you're missing out on. See what this really could be is a gigantic favor to both you and your future husband to find out that you're not missing out on anything. I'm just as big a loser as he is, totally unmotivated, totally boring. And you made the right choice and you're really happy. But you know what? In a way, he's not risking as much in that moment as she is. Not at all. Because if she says no, he can get off the train. Oh, well, funny story. She actually disrupts her normal life, going back home, seeing her friends being a girl, going on this random day with a guy who might be crazy, you know, might be a lunatic. She might hate him in five minutes. Like, who knows that it's a bigger risk, I think, to say yes to somebody with a crazy idea than to be the person with a crazy idea. I think that he is way more performative in what this moment is. And from the get go, she's more checked into what this moment could be. Not saying that they're looking at each other going, this is my perfect partner. But I think that she's more grounded in. Being herself. Yes, she's afraid and but she's honest. Like when she talks about that swimmer, she's being honest. And when she talks about. You know, this she jokes with him, she pushes him like she's not. I don't ever think that she's creating this idealized version. I want to go back to the script writing of it. Like, I think that's why this movie is really well done, because it is a perspective that I think is very clear from two different people. Like they don't this is not a male fantasy in any way. There's a there's a romanticism to her that I think comes from being European. That's very different than being an American. And she's not as nervous in the same way as he is to share certain things. She'll talk about love. She'll talk about fucking. She'll talk about all this stuff because that's not taboo culturally to her. But I think when it's about connecting or. Like really showing that she's falling for him, it's a harder. It's a harder thing. That means. Yeah, like I wonder if there's something in the idea that if you're never going to see this guy again, you don't have to play along and be nice. Right. Bite your tongue the way that you might if it was a first date. And you're like, I don't know, could I see this guy again? She might never see this guy again. So he's like, yeah, you know, an island with like 99 chicks and one guy. That's great. Lots of babies. And she's like, we're going to kill all the men, you know, like she's not afraid to disagree with him, which I think I really respect. If you had an island, right? And there were. Ninety nine women on the island and only one man in a year. You'd have the possibility of 99 babies. Right. But if you have an island with 99 men and only one woman in a year, you have the possibility of only one baby. So. You know what? What? On this island, you know, I think there will be only like maybe 43 men left because they would have killed each other, you know, trying to fuck this woman, you know what I mean? And on the other island, there would be 99 women, 99 babies and no more men. Because they would have all gotten together and you're telling the lie. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. See, I think there's something to that. And it's interesting because I'm trying to break this down for myself because there's a part of me that feels like she is open and vulnerable about her life and her love and you're right, she can give him shit and he's kind of presenting this other image of himself. But I also feel like she is more afraid than he is. The fact that Ethan Hawke has been on this train, he was dumped. He's been going around and he opens himself up to her is very in a way brave, right? But I also think it's like performative, like he's trying to be this version of himself. But to her, I think that there is a fear. I think that there is a fear of, yes, I can say all these things, but. I say them only because I know you're leaving. I think that's fair. And I think also she has that really relatable back and forth with like being conscious that she's afraid she might be more emotional or more vulnerable because she's a woman, but then not wanting to feel like she's the quote unquote woman in the relationship. Right. You know, and kind of toggling back and forth with that. Like she's embarrassed when she says, is sex going to mean more to me than it does to you because I'm a woman. And it's like she doesn't want that to be the truth, but is it the truth? And maybe she just needs to admit that it might be the truth. So let me ask you this. Is this connection, are these two people special or is it circumstance? Could anybody fall into this? Right. Because of the magic of the moment, the, the point in the lives that we meet these two characters, is it destined or are they destined? Well, yeah, like if they were living in the same city and set, were set up on a date. I think it's just as likely that they would have gotten into a fight over dinner and not see each other again. Yeah. Yeah. Like they're kind of tied to each other. They are a life raft for each other. Like we know that Ethan Hawke is not, you know, he's not the guy from Blackphone. Right. So, uh, we, you know, they're, they're just normal. They're kids, right? They're 20 year olds and they have to kind of stick together because she has no way to get out and he has nowhere to go. So they are forced. They don't have phones. They don't really have money to solve problems. No. I mean, that's why I love that one moment when they're walking across the bridge is very early on, right? When they leave the train and they're like, this is awkward. And it is. And it's, of course it is. And I think that's what's so great about this movie is it lives in those moments of like, okay, now what? I think that's what this whole trilogy actually becomes. Well, now what? Right. The moment is romantic, but the reality is hard and no relationship is easy. I say that with the most love of being in relationships, but it's like, this is the fun part. And then you're like, okay, I jumped off the train. Now I'm stuck here until morning and you're going to have your ups and downs. And you're, you know, I think that that's, I think that they are, they are cellmates in a way. So they have to have this bond. And because they are both smart, interesting people that are a little bit lost. They find each other. I don't know if they're perfect together as much as this moment has like created this like aura around them. Well, I like that idea that they're not perfect. Right. I mean, because yeah, like Jesse is absolutely the sort of guy you fall for when you're young, because he's like smart and like interesting and really into being present. You know, like he's very active. He's kind of like jumpy and alive. He's not, he's not a Jordan Catalano. You know, although you also fall for the Jordan Catalano. But he seems fascinating. And yet I think you also see his faults that he might drive you nuts, that he is totally maddening. He seems to be a little threatened, I think by the fact that she's as smart as he is, maybe smarter. Like he loves that, but she is smarter than him, I would say. Or at least she's more perceptive. Like when they're at the art gallery and she's sort of talking about what she sees in the surat figures and how it looks like human figures are so transitory. He almost seems to choke like, oh man, I don't know how to yes and this, right? Right. And yeah, like that she intimidates him, I think. But you know, I also feel like what they're wrestling with on some level is an animal instinct, right? At a certain point in this movie, they want to fuck. And I feel like you're definitely getting that from Ethan Hawke, that he wants to do that and you're getting her like rationalizing, well, can I do that? It is like a one night. Like it is. It's like an intellectual one night stand that they're having. And and you know, it kind of it offers up this conversation being like, do all one night stands have to be more than what they are? And obviously in that one moment, you're not settling. There's something it clicks and you are like, we're doing this. This is what's happening in this moment. And yeah, maybe it does. Maybe it works out. But I would say the fact that there's a term one night stand means that a lot of the times it doesn't, right? Like it's just like, it's just that one moment. And I feel like what you're watching is two people going, I'm deeper than a one night stand. I know what a one night stand is, and this is not a one night stand, but they are also having like this intellectual one night stand where they have to like make all these parameters for themselves or at least agree to these world, you know, this, they have to agree to a reality. Well, and I think there's also the conflict in here too. Like I could handle a one night stand though if I had to, right? Right. I could seize the moment. I'll seize the moment. Let's seize the moment. It's the conflict between that I really like. I mean, that there, yeah, that this is the movie where it kind of comes down to like brain versus heart, but not told in a way that's like so neat and bifurcated, like a normal romcom, like, oh, if only, you know, she just didn't care so much about her career, we could make this whole thing work. It's, it's messy. There's like so much blur and how they feel and how they behave. Well, because it doesn't make sense. She lives in Paris. He lives in the States. Like he's not, you know, you're not going to move across the country for, you're not going to move across the world for one night, you know, and I think it takes away that idea that, you know, there's a happily ever after there isn't necessarily a happily ever after. There are real world concerns. And, you know, this is, you know, we don't live in a world of like the Greece musical, right? We're all, well, now you're going to be in my school. And that's, you know, it's like this is, I think, more realistic than anything. We have these fleeting moments. I'm sure there are people in your life that you think about. You're like, oh, wow, I wonder, and this is what Jesse says in the movie. Like what would it have been like if I would have spent a night with that person or if I did go down that path? It's the sliding doors that we all kind of play, not because we're unhappy, but it's just like, oh, I didn't make that choice. What is what's what it would have been behind that door? Well, yeah, because one weird thing about the age that we are is we remember the the before sunrise of the before internet of the before. Yes. We're zillineals in a way. Zillineals are people that can remember a time before the internet very clearly. And then the internet comes in in college, right? So like and then like the second part of our like childhood or early adulthood is like, oh, wow, now connectivity, right? So it's like you really can see you can see both sides very, very clearly. Yeah, exactly. Like a lot of my bumming around doing weird things, meeting people times was like right in that little switchover. Like I started abroad in Japan for a summer and I had a Japanese boyfriend. No idea where he is because social media existed like right when I got home. Like I missed it by a month. I'd have no idea what happened to this guy. And so like he's gone. And I think about that. Like that's fascinating because I have something I should probably apologize to him for. Um, wait, that sounds really suspicious. But like I'm a kid, we got into like a really stupid fight. Yeah, but whatever. And I've always been like, you know, I know that I'm older, that was pretty dumb. I would say I'm sorry, but I have no idea where this guy is. And if that had happened a couple of years later, I'd know exactly where he is. Who's he's married to, how many kids he has, you know, whether or not he has like a big dog or a little dog. Like I would know everything. We wouldn't be talking still probably, but I would know all this stuff. And it's weird to have people that you are able to lose. I think we talked about this on the show in the past. I know that you're, you learn a lot from the relationships that you're in, but I do believe that the short relationships, even if they are a night, actually teach you so much more about who you are. Because it allows you to act in a way where you're less precious or you maybe are more vulnerable, depending on whatever the situation is. I think it's important. Maybe it's important that you carried that with you and you can't apologize to that. Like that somehow is a part of the DNA that, you know, makes up how you are in your current relationship. It is true. Cause if you did everything right, you wouldn't learn anything. Would you? Yeah. I don't think so. No, I don't. Definitely you wouldn't. But I also think it's like, not everything that is right needs to be long. Yeah. You know, it's like dessert gets to be too much after a while. Right? Like it's, you know, like it, and dessert never gets to be too much. I think what I really love about this movie kind of captures that. Like, can we just have this moment? Can we just not forget this moment? And, and is that okay? Is that enough? And maybe that's something that paralyzes you and maybe you make wrong decisions because of that and it never lives up to that. And that's another issue too. But like, I don't know. Story takes over. We have to make this work because isn't the story so cool. Yeah. Or I've built up the story so much that nothing is comparable to it. Right. Because you're living in that moment. If I can think clearly back to a person that I dated and. I am in that moment, which is in the moment of like this movie, that kind of beginning moment. Now that relationship ended or didn't end. It just never continued. And you can go back there, but it's like, well, I'm not that person anymore. I'm not that thing. And it was like, yeah, that was a great moment. You're kind of high on your high on that moment. You know, but like, but if you allow that memory to be like, nothing's like that. Like it's like when people go like, well, yeah, it's not like when we first met. It's like, yeah, shit gets different. Like once you start, once you're in six, eight months a year, two years, five years, like shit changes, but it's better, richer, fuller than that one moment that you're chasing, you're kind of chasing like that high. And you're getting a different high from, I think, a longer relationship. Well, yeah. I mean, part of what I think you're arguing is that there is a way of seeing the world where even the smallest things have as much value. Okay. As much as weird. I don't want to say as much because then you're like getting into math, like, and that's definitely. But that they have value. Even if they're small, they have value. Yeah. I love that idea. Like I love the sense of you, despite it all, I feel like I, I still wake up every day being very much a humanist that I take so much strength in the world from the idea that how nuts is it that we're all alive, that we all like evolve from amoebas and manage to be here. That's crazy to me. You know, and so whenever I need a little bit of magic or that little boost to be like, go make the most of your day. Like that's really where it comes from is like every human being who's alive is here because some people met and made it and some other people met and made it. And like they didn't die in childbirth. They didn't pull a hamlet. You know, like, right? It's, it's, it's wild. I side very much with somebody like the palm reader who shows up on this and she's like, you are all stardust because there's something in that cosmic universality that we are all alive because of other things that happen that like continued to be alive that, that I find bigger than almost any kind of idea that exists on this planet. And that palm reader is totally stealing from Carl Sagan. I mean, that's, yeah, it's a Carl Sagan one on one. We're all stardust. You sound so much like a Jesse right now. I want to listen to her say that just, you know, to balance out your criticism. You're both stars. Don't forget. And the stars exploded billion of years ago. They formed everything that is this world. Everything we know is stardust. So don't forget you are stardust. But I do think that's beautiful. Either. Oh, I love it. I actually played that for my kids a couple of months ago when they were worried about death. It's like, this is, I played not this movie, Carl Sagan, because that's a person who came up with it. But like that idea, like it's a beautiful idea. 100%. Well, yeah, I mean, I just think the world would be so much simpler. Oh God, why am I getting so corny now? Is it this movie? I think the world will be so much simpler if we could be all stardust. And there were fewer Jesse's being like, nah. But Jesse is acting. I mean, that's the thing. It's like what it like, again, what we know about Jesse in the future films is he can't let go of this moment. He is, he is connected to this. He has built this up to a degree that is not irrational, but he built his career around this one night, which is beautiful. And there's something funny about art imitating life because that's what Richard Linklater did. He created a, not his entire career, but obviously three films in his, you know, in his career around this one night. It meant something. It captures something. The reason why this movie is so successful is it captures something so universal. We've all had these moments. And there's a great quote. And I'm, I know I'm not really talking about the other movies, but I do want to talk about this one line because it really jumps out at me in the third film. Julie Delpy is telling a story about her friend in New York and she said, you know, he had leukemia and he was about to die. And the first thought that he had was relief because he always thought I, I wasn't going to have enough money. Like how could I make money? But he knew that he was going to die in nine months. He has plenty of money and it allowed him to actually enjoy the world that he's living in. And I think that this is, I love that thought. You know, like he's loves being in traffic. He loves looking at people's faces. And I think that that's what this movie does in a way. It's like we're here. Now we can embrace this moment. Like there's nothing else outside pulling us away. And, and I think that when, you know, time is finite. That's when we are like, because we live in a world where we'll, we'll get to it again. We'll do this again. There will be another time, but we're not given more time. And this movie is under that guy's like we only have one night. So of course they have to fuck. Right. Like if not that that's the only way of expressing it, but they have to. Right. Like the only, like there is no tomorrow. Um, you know, we don't know if Julie Delpy is going to die, which she could have. Yeah. Well, he didn't know that she could have when he did this, but she could have. Exactly. And I feel like that's the thing that I feel like maybe I don't want to put my theory on top of yours, but if we look at it as like, this is the only shot. I'm going to have lunch with this person. I'm going to go over here. I may never see them again. I may never perform again. I may never do another podcast again. Like all these things could be true. Right. But so let's make the best of what we have. And I think a lot of the times. And going back to the time management of it all, we're like, okay, well, I'm going to do more stuff. I can do more stuff. I have to do more stuff than I have more room to do more stuff. And it's like, well, but are you enjoying anything that you're doing? Are you having any fun? Or are you just ping ponging from one thing to the next? Because, you know, I don't think on your deathbed, you're ever going to look and go like, well, I crossed up everything on my to do list. Woo. You know, that's not fulfilling. Yeah. This movie doesn't even do it. They meet the guy who has the play about the cow and they don't go see the cow. Yes. I forgot they didn't see the cow. So I was like, oh, obviously they're going to see the cow. And then I found myself being like, why haven't they seen the cow yet? It's really dark. Shouldn't they be going to see the cow? It's nighttime. What are they doing? Why haven't they seen the cow play? And they don't because this movie knows what you're talking about deeper than I do. Because I feel like when I watch a movie like this, I have to do that thing of unlearning the rules of lesser stories that don't trust me to not like a movie if they haven't put all the pieces into place. A hundred percent. Yes. Listen up. Huh? That means you. Yes, you. We know you're pointing at yourself. When it comes to party power games, we've got a place made for all sorts. From the experts to the drama queens. It's me, the JC. The finance bros. Look at those stalks, lads. We'll stick with slots. It's what we're good at. And not forgetting you. Yes, you, the one listening. Because at party power games, we've got all sorts of games for all sorts of trickles. Eligibility rules in terms of conditions apply. Please come for responsibly. ATEMPLUS.com or www.wayo.org. Getting instant insights is amazing. But if there are too many data points, it can be hard to see what works. So I'll ask my AI assistant for recommendations. And with PDF spaces in Acrobat Studio, it's easy to remix documents and transform insights into standout content. So you can go from idea to creation in record time, all within an AI powered workflow. Do that with Acrobat. Learn more and try it out on adobe.com. There is something about, it's like that, that, that, it's like that John Lennon quote, like life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. And I feel like this movie kind of slows everything down. Like they don't have to go see that. Like it's there and, but there's nothing to do. They have no place to go. They have no allegiance to do anything or be anywhere for anyone. And then you can kind of be selfish. I love that they don't have to feel guilty even. Yeah. Because they could be- Not seeing the guy's cow play. They're never going to see this guy again. Right. You don't have to care about anything and not to say that you should live your life being selfish, but they're being selfish for themselves. Right? They just want to be like, I want to be with you. And I don't, I don't want to shut up for two hours and see this thing. Um, by the way, quick question for you. I have a theory on it. Do you think Jesse sends, uh, that bartender money for that bottle of wine? No. No way. No fucking way. And that's why I don't like him. I'm like, I know, like you are not going to fucking send that money, dude. I know it. I know it. And he makes me like hate a little bit more. I'm like, you greasy haired son of a bitch. Well, I don't know why she has to steal their glasses. Either man, just drink out of the bottle. Oh yeah. Well, they're classy. Um, I mean, it really is like, and that guy, I have to say, like, I love that guy, the bartender, like just shakes. Like there's something beautiful about that. Like, and I think that what that bartender is doing is he's seeing love, right? He's seeing like we all like, we all go, oh, love, uh, we all know it. Right. It's the universality of this movie. And I, and I guess I wonder, you know, or he might have people like that come in every single day, honestly, give him the shittiest red wine, like a two buck chuck. Um, yeah, they don't know their kids. Give him some shitty way. Now, here's the question. We're obviously a script written in 11 days. Um, but this is Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke. I mean, so much so that, you know, as the films progress, they get story credit. Like you can tell that this is them. I think this is a really interesting type of film because it's clearly improvised within moments. Um, they, you know, they have these characters, but I think these characters. And what they're thinking are closely tied to who they are as people. When you see them on press tours, they have a really interesting dynamic. And I feel like they, I love watching them grow, you know, in just in the press tours of it all. Um, yeah. I mean, even in the front ones, when Julie is getting interviewed by people, you know, she sounds basically like her character. She's got those like almost huffy, weasy, tired, chill grievances about the world. Like I like that her character is so beautiful and blonde and can also be so negative. Yes. You know, when, when sometimes I found myself in a situation where like Americans would tell me that I can't really communicate with them because I don't have the same pop culture reference. And that pieces me off. Sorry, can you say that on TV? Oh, okay. It's not a bad word, is it? No, I think now we can get by with it. Maybe five years ago, I'm not sure. Okay. Um, because I think it's so untrue because I think it's all about people and emotions. And I don't think a little, you know, if I don't know what great coupon is, doesn't mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I can communicate with someone. You know, I mean, I like that you've seen her character, that she's not a person playing the game, you know, like, oh, yes, this was wonderful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like she, I think has that same level of honesty that this character does. And I do want to just make sure that I am not, uh, taking away from the script because I do think that this is a script that has been workshop, but what makes it different is they're not just going and shooting a scene and improvising. They're workshopping it for weeks. You know, how does it sound? How do we make this conversation more naturalistic? You know, they would basically rehearse these scripted scenes, then break the character and then discuss, you know, what felt false and what felt true. And they had different lines and different approaches and different anecdotes. So I think that's where Linklater and, uh, Crizzan, like writes this are able to use all of that and create a script. It's why I think a lot of people, you talk about Olivia Wilde just had some tremendous success at Sundance, I think doing something very similar with this movie, The Invite, that sold for 12 million at, uh, A24. It was, uh, I can't wait to see it. It's like her, Seth Rogen, Ed Norton, and, uh, who else? Uh, Penelope Cruz. Penelope Cruz. Um, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's two couples, but you know, they workshopped it with Rashida Jones and Will McCormick to really create something that felt naturalistic. So in that way, that's what I think people are always lamenting. We don't have time to rehearse anymore. How come we, you know, we, that rehearsal process is so important, especially for a movie that's so character based. So I do believe that like, I want to make sure that I'm clear and saying the movie isn't improvised. It is scripted based on the way that these actors approach the original dialogue. And they created something that I think feels intertwined, right? So there might be an anecdote that is something that is personal from Juliet, from Julie Delpy's life for Ethan Hawks life, but it's all under the really solid hand of Link later, you know, co-scripting this and making sure that we get these things and these conversations that are not boring because they are, they do have a pace to them. They don't feel rambly. We've seen the mumble core. We've seen that stuff and it sucks, you know, or it doesn't suck. It just feels navel, gazey. And this movie does not feel like that. There are moments like that moment in the, in the, in the, the tram car, like kissing moment, like you're feeling that anticipation of the kiss. It's really beautifully done. I don't know how to describe it more than he builds pacing into these scenes. I was thinking about the one in the streetcar, which is to me, one of the longest conversation it takes. We're like, how is this not improvised? That I'm watching two people, nothing's moving. The background is moving, but the camera isn't moving at all. And they are talking for, I don't even know, five minutes, six minutes, conversations back and forth, tiny little pauses, keeping conversations going, elbowing each other. It feels incredibly natural. So I have no idea if every single word of that was completely where they knew it was going to be when they were rehearsing it, but it's phenomenal acting. And it really surprises me the confidence with which a still pretty young Richard Linklater, who had just done like a bigger splashier movie, was like, people will trust me, people will watch this. I don't have to cut away. Well, and I also think that's where you're getting those moments. You know, the studio has gotten so much energy and attention for their use of wonters and you have that whole episode called The Warner. And while The Warner, you know, in a lot of film is incredibly showy. We talked about it in Boogie Nights and stuff like that. What it does showy good. Showy good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. But I mean, like it's an impressive thing. Like, can you do it all? Can you pull it off this stuff? But I think what it actually allows, and this is why I think the studio really does well, is the longer takes allow for comedy, emotions, so many more things to play, because it just makes it more naturalistic. Your eyes can go from person to person. You're not being told what to think. It allows you, I think, to switch perspectives in a film. I mean, I don't know if you've seen it, Amy. I loved Send Help. I thought it was awesome. The new Sam. Yeah, I'm really dying. Yeah, I loved it. I won't say anything more about it, but it's an example of a movie where. The like the director is constantly challenging you on whose side are you on? Who is right? Who is wrong? And this movie, I think, equally waits them and you could spend an entire scene just watching her react to him. And in that scene, you know, you're just on them. You're just watching them. And so you get to be very voyeuristic in it. Like you get to see all those little takes that they're not even seeing each other. And I don't think they're what's planned. It's just really good acting. It's a really good acting. And it's also knowing that you can't. You can't save it for a close up. Well, yeah, I feel like we should draw more of a of a distinguishing line in the two types of winners, right? Right. Because really what we're talking about is like the winners that I admire because they're feats of. I don't know, choreography. Like, wow, how'd they get over there? And then they got over there and then this thing rolled in here and that actor got from here and here and here and here. Those are really impressive. And also this is impressive when nothing moves, when it's just a complete acting based winner, right? And it's almost like we should like take those two things and take them apart the way that the Golden Globes has best drama, best comedy, because they are, I think, completely different skill sets with completely different things that impress you. I mean, and just to put it in perspective, like this movie comes out in the 90s and a typical Hollywood film or maybe they say like an action film at this time, you're getting like three to five seconds per shot, right? And this is a movie that's running two to four minutes uninterrupted, right? This movie has like a hundred and what, 120 shots total, you know? And, you know, that's that like, like an action movie is like a thousand, you know? So like, you know, like, I think it's interesting like that. Like, and I think you're right, like this, like that opening train conversation is three and a half minutes. It's a single shot. The camera just kind of pushes in on them. And you just have to settle in and listen. And maybe in a weird way, this movie works better now as we've gotten to a time of podcasting where we're more adept at just listening to people talk about their feelings, right? There's something about, you know, like, you know, like we're just, yeah. But I mean, that like that kind of stuff is really interesting. It doesn't feel like they're not cutting. It just feels like you're living in this moment and there's no music here. I don't even know what that German couple is arguing about. Oh, I love that. I know, I wish I knew German. I think that they're arguing about it. She's like, put the newspaper down and talk to me, but I have no idea, honestly. I wonder what the background people would have been like, if, if Link later had said it in a place that is actually near and dear to me, that is not Vienna at all. I was written for Berlin initially or going back, it was, I had a version that was in San Antonio. Really? Like the train goes through San Antonio. And I just like, they're walking around. I walked around San Antonio. You go, I was like, oh, like San Antonio looks. This was a couple of years before, sometime before, but I was thinking, and, and he was European and she was American. It could have been either. I wasn't that committed. The scornful laughter that he could have said before sunrise in San Antonio does wound my heart. We are very beautiful. We have very beautiful. We have margaritas everywhere. Come on. Don't you want to hang out and like have margaritas? At least in the never see somebody again. I love it. I mean, I did that when I was there. I do want to just dig in for a second and say that this is what the German couple is talking about. I know I looked it up. You'll never guess it. They're arguing about whether to buy a new carpet or to save money. She wants to buy a nice carpet for the apartment. He thinks it's a waste of money and that they should save instead. It is not. It's nothing that is. Yes. I thought it was the paper because he's like, he keeps holding it around. I think it's like the passion and intensity of it are disproportion. That's what couples do. Right. You've done arguments of you had about nothing. Right. And I think that it's a beautiful moment because they both don't understand it, but they're both looking at a couple and going like, well, that's that's it. Like this couple, they're breaking up. Oh, that couple's mad at each other. You know, they're they're what you even saw. Like they're arguing for attention, you know, put the paper down, talk to me. Um, and, you know, I think what's interesting again is we track these characters. Like they will become those characters, you know, arguing about mundane things. They are they are, they don't they don't have the history to argue about things like this. But it's true. Right. Like it's sort of like, you know, in this moment, they have nothing to argue about. There's nothing there. They don't know each other to make these assumptions. Like, well, you always and, you know, or they don't know anything. I love that. Like that's like there is this kind of ability to paint who you want on the other person. Um, and I think they do. And then to call that out. Yes. And then to call that out too. And for her to say, you know what, I would love to be able to get to know the person I love so much that I know when they're going to start launching into like a repetitive story that's going to annoy me. And is that is that Durham a couple of something to aspire towards that they do come back to their seats, right? They're just arguing, but they're back about a carpet. About a carpet. There's a carpet argument in the invite too. Oh, interesting. Oh, wow. I cannot wait. Um, you know, and I think that, you know, this is why the movie is so effective because it allows you to look at it. I was saying, uh, to my therapist today, because before I recorded this episode, I just said I had watched all three and it's funny to me to be like, Oh, I was, you know, younger than these characters in the first film came out, but I felt very connected to them because they felt young and I was young, but they were older than me. And now in watching all three, I'm like, Oh, I see, I see each stage of their life. I've lived each stage of their life now, you know, in some level. Not the ups and downs and all that sort of stuff. But like, and it's so interesting to look back at, you can kind of take different sides. I think I was much more, uh, you know, I have different points of view on who they are as people, uh, based on the life I've lived. And so I think that that's what's kind of great about them being in a strange land, not in San Antonio, you know, being kind of forced to deal with things that they have to make assumptions about. And then you agree with the one that you feel is closest to you. Like, you know, you, the audience can kind of continually find yourself not rooting, but just kind of, you know, the movie informs a lot about what you think about love. I mean, do you think you could be satisfied if this movie only ended here with no idea whether or not they come back together? Absolutely. Yes. Same. Me too. It is a perfect movie. It ends beautifully. And I like, I'm so thankful that we have others because I think it's really smart about how they continue to grow it. And I would happily talk about those as we go forward. Um, but this is a movie that is complete. It is a one night stand. And I say that in the most positive way. It captures everything that you feel this moment, this love, this everything. And I think when you leave this movie, you go, these two characters will never forget this time together. This is special. This was unique. And whatever happens post this, it will never change this night. And I think that's why, yes, it's a trilogy, but it's not a necessary trilogy. But I do love that it is a trilogy. And I think what you see too, when they're like separated is it's not like they cry, they hug, they kiss at the train and then boom, that's it. The movie's over. Like we stay with them and we stay with the town as everything separates as they leave the town, the town is alone without them as they leave each other. They're alone without each other. And everything just feels so much more quiet and empty. Right. You just feel that absence of that connection between boy, girl and place. I want to talk about the ending because you see every scene without them in it. And that is really powerful because it's sort of like. In a weird way, the city will stage this event again and again and again from multiple people. Maybe they're married for a long time, maybe they're not like it. The city is the set to play out their life. And we're just seeing the stage being bare. I love that. And yeah, I think it does add something that it's Vienna, which feels so old, where it feels like people have been falling in love there. Yes. Before these buildings were even built, you know, like the human history there is so old. I mean, San Antonio, I guess I would love to see like a forlorn shot of the flood rockers on the riverwalk. That would make me really happy. I love that. Fud rockers, it meant a lot to me as a kid. Lots of high school dates. Um, I love a flood rocker burger. Yeah. Maybe there's a little bit of like Jesse in us as Americans go seeing visual visuals of Vienna that to us feel like they have even more residents than they might for somebody like the Julie Delpese character was like, yeah, it's a town I've been through going through grandma lives this way. It's part of a commute. Yeah. And I think that, you know, they're going through a historic town, but they're also creating a history too. Right. They are part of the history. Right. They've created like they've taken these tourist spots, you know, whether that boat or, you know, the Ferris wheel, like, and all of a sudden they have more meaning. You know, um, I don't know. I think that that's really, really important to kind of look at it. I like, you know, it's like they're like my memory of any place that I've ever been with my wife or my kids is forever changed by the memories that are there. Um, but yet they'll be open to new memories. You know, in moments, you know, right? Wait, now I'm kind of comparing this movie in my head to another movie we've done on the show before, which is in Bruges, another travel log about people wandering through a town that feels like it is part of this rich history. You're interacting with the town, but yet it doesn't feel like a glamorous travel log. You know, it's not, I don't know, for some reason, I have like a, an image of like Jay-Z singing New York over images of Manhattan and how this is just very much not that. Or, you know what, I feel like even Paris for this movie in particular would feel overplayed. Yes. Oh, 100%. Right. You don't like, it's sort of the mundanity of like there's something mundane about each of these spots. Like when you look at that, like alleyway with the, like the, the empty spindle and stuff like that, you know, it's like, we're just looking at these moments. You know, people are what make cities thrive when people talk about Florence and they talk about all these beautiful cities. It's not, yes, those cities are beautiful, but it's your experience. There's your memory there, right? If everything is a creation of your memory and. You're right. And like now that I'm thinking about it, they don't even go to the Surat Museum. Right? No. They look at a poster on a telephone pole about the Surat Museum. So they're not even going to like the major landmarks. Like really when I think about what this movie shows us of Vienna, it shows us that it's just part of like a whole global youth culture. Coffee shops over here, people in bands over here, people playing in the guitar here, lots of flannel kind of everywhere. People sitting at cafes that there's almost a universality to the human experience in these towns. Yeah. And, and I think it, I don't know that ending to me is hopeful because you see a beautiful city, but where other beauty has been there. That, you know, it's, it's not about, it's kind of like the city provided this night. Like the city, this ability to walk around this place when you see the wine bottle sitting in that open field. To see an old woman walk by the wine bottle, living through her next phase of life. And I think that there's something beautiful about like, as somebody who's lived in a big city, you know, so many people are coming back and forth and, and so many things are happening. Breakups get together's firings, hireings, highs, lows, you know, and, and to have it intentionally empty. It kind of just shows that like, you know, the lifeblood of everything, why we love everything is not just because it's the city, not because it's a gorgeous city, it's because of like the moments that we have there. And we've had this moment. It's a photograph, like the movie ends up on this photograph. These are the spots I remember. Whenever he goes there, he will see that scene. That's the ghost of that moment. Yeah. And now I'm really caught up in the restraint of it because I feel like the obvious thing would be granny walks by littered wine bottle and goes, ah, kids. Exactly. Or something, but no, it's just wine bottle is there. How is Linklater so mature, man? It was really mature to be able to pull this film off. Well, I also think that you have so many smart people. You have, you know, you, he's writing this with somebody else. He is working with two actors who I think are very reflective of their personalities in the film. So you were having a lot of people bring their own baggage into this. And so it feels really smart and elevated. And I also think it's something that everyone can connect with. We can't talk about like, is marriage good or having kids good or anything like that is good. Like, but we can all identify that these moments, we've all had them, sometimes multiple of them. And what are we taking away? Like, what are we trying to say? And I think this movie is, you know, in a weird way, the end is like, time has moved on and they're gone. And what will be next? We don't know, but it's like that, that is, you know, they've imprinted on us. They've imprinted on each other. And I think that that's really special. You know, it's like there's, you know, they ran out of time. Times up. Me too. Oh my God, no. People have these romantic projections. They put on everything, you know, it's not based in any kind of reality. Romantic projections. Yeah. Oh, Mr. Romantic of there in the Ferris Bowl, kiss me the sunset. Oh, it's so beautiful. All right, all right, all right. Tell me about your grandma. What are you saying about her? You know what, Paul? I feel like you're going to get a little cranky with me for this, but I kind of want to stay in the Sardonic American version of this vibe in the Ethan hawk of this vibe, you know, guys got an Oscar nomination right now for a Linklater movie. Let's, let's keep with the hawk. Let's watch the hawk soar. I want to do reality bites. I love that you said this movie that I loved as a kid. I absolutely loved. And it's a complete and utter opposite of this movie that I have not seen in forever. Oh, I'm so excited about this, Amy. What a great choice. Let's do it. Uh, all right, reality bites available wherever you get your, your films. And I think we will see in many respects what the American version of this movie is, right? What American version of love is, right? I think this movie is a lot more European, which is interesting considering that Richard Linklater decidedly with the exception of like a few notable exceptions is very much makes movies about being in Texas. So I think it's, I'm fast. Oh, I'm very excited about this. I can't wait. All right. Thank you for accepting my challenge. And make sure you check out our substack each and every week to go a little bit deeper on the movies that we talk about here. It's always free. So join in the conversation on school. This produced by Amy Nicholson, Paul Shear, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson. Sound engineered by Corey Barton. Music by Devon Bryant. Episode are by Kim Troxel show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoe Applebaum. This is a realm production. See you next week. Bye for now. The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world. Praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time. And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back. 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