Hunting the Bogeyman | 6. Answers

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It is definitely an amazing story. It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and tearing it with a world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so frickin good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen and subscribers to the binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on the Binge Podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com. Listen to all episodes of Hunting the Boogie Man. Add free right now by subscribing to the Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Or visit getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Binge. Feed your true crime obsession. After Nicole and I had been talking for a couple months, I asked her if her feelings about meeting Roy Waller face to face had changed. I don't want to sit down with him as like his victim. It's almost an intellectual curiosity. Almost like a, I'm a detective. He's like a black hole. And he's still a black hole. And I don't like that. Nicole still had questions that only Roy Waller could answer. So even from prison, he still held on to control and power. And I think Nicole wants to take it back. But how is she going to do that if he won't admit to what he's done? What if she makes all this effort builds up all this expectation? And he won't tell her a thing? I wasn't sure if Nicole would even be allowed to meet Waller behind bars. But I started to look into it. In the meantime, I thought maybe I could help find some of the answers Nicole was seeking. For starters, Nicole still didn't know how her case had finally been linked by DNA to the NorCal series. I thought Paul Holes should be the one to tell her. So one morning, we knocked on the door of her lovely house in Sonoma County. She was expecting us. And so were her two little dogs. From Sony Music Entertainment and Perfect Cates, you're listening to the finale of Hunting the Boogie Man. I'm Peter McDonnell. This is episode six. Answers. Paul Nicole and I sat in the dining room of Nicole's home. And for the first time, he told her how he got involved in her case. I was working for the Contocosta County Sheriff's Crime Lab. And then ultimately, Detective Caleb Hilt, he and I collaborated. And it was like, well, Ronor Park, they have DNA in their case. We need to see is that related or not. And I said, my lab will do the DNA work. It was to specifically to generate a DNA profile and see if your attack was related to these other unsolved cases. They'd never done that. They hadn't pursued the DNA at that point. And so- Is that used to you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know lapel was constantly harassing them. And so eventually, so lapel brought that evidence to me to my lab when formally, the DNA from your case was linked to the NorCal Repus series. So what you're saying is that not only were you aware and that Ronor Park was aware in 2002 that the case that they had in their jurisdiction in 1991 was a serial rapist that you've identified. They should have been aware. Now, I can't say for certain that there were, but I don't know how they wouldn't be. Wow. But not one person bothered to tell me until 2006. I wanted the Ronor Park Department of Public Safety to have a chance to respond to what Nicole had told me about her interview with the two detectives, the DNA testing, and the way they talked about her case in the newspaper. So I reached out to the chief of police, Tim Mattis. Chief Mattis had joined the department at the end of 2018, just a few months after Roy Waller was caught. Mattis knew about the NorCal Repus series, but he didn't know about Nicole's case in particular. I filled him in on what Nicole had told me and emailed him a copy of the newspaper article from 1992. The one where Ronor Park questioned Nicole's credibility and said, there are some parts of her story that were hard to believe. Then, Chief Mattis and I hopped on the phone. I first asked him about the article. That was unfortunate. I don't know if any investigative class I've ever been to, statements like that would have ever been given to a reporter to doubt a victim. My hard job is to be advocates for the victim. And the fact that the case will in the end lead to work needs to go. To question the victim's credibility like that was, that's nothing I've ever done and nothing I would ever support. I also asked him about when officer Diane told Nicole that her account of the rape sounded like a movie. Remember how I was told that the transcript of that interview couldn't be found? Well, Chief Mattis did some digging of his own. I can't find the transcript of that interview. And so I couldn't find where that statement was made regarding the, you know, this sounds like it came out of a movie. It's not the approach that any department ever worked in. Our job is to investigate the crimes and take care of our victims, not doubt them. That was nice to hear. But what Chief Mattis said about following the facts reminded me of something that had worried me since I began covering this story. Had Rotemont Park's doubt of Nicole impacted the rigor with which they investigated her case. Put plainly, did Waller commit more rapes because they didn't believe Nicole. I asked Chief Mattis. When I pulled this case to review it a couple days ago after we talked, I was reading it from a, let's find out what we did wrong in this case. And I wasn't seeing it. They didn't investigate it like they doubt it. They, they went after every lead they could and exhausted it. Chief Mattis said it does not appear to him that there was a missed opportunity to find Roy Waller sooner. I didn't see anywhere where I thought, oh, if you had done this, you'd have probably caught him. If all of them had been done in Rotemont Park, it might have been different, but they were all over the place. So I'm so thankful that, you know, DNA came along and we were able to get enough evidence of the scene in 91 that helped later. I think doubt may have played a role in one big missed opportunity. As Chief Mattis pointed out, the rapist attacked across such a huge region that it was almost impossible for anyone jurisdiction to solve the series. So linking the cases was essential. And the first opportunity to do so, at least through M.O. was six months after Nicole was attacked when that similar rape occurred in the town of Sonoma. What if instead of doubting Nicole in the newspaper, Ronard Park had confidently come forward and said, yes, we believe this victim. And we believe there's a serial rapist on the loose in Northern California. When Chief Mattis and I first talked, he said he'd just read Nicole's police report for the first time. And he was surprised by what an absolutely phenomenal witness she was. It felt like we'd come full circle that after all these years, the head of the Ronard Park Police Department was now seeing what makes Nicole unique. Victims of sexual assault, they would just go to a different place in their mind while this is happening to them, right? I got the feeling in a reading or statement that she realized I can't do anything physically right now to stop this. But I can surely use my other senses. I can concentrate and just try to remember everything that's happening to me. She said, I'm going to win a long run on this. You may have me right now. But at some point, I'm going to win and she really concentrated on focusing on the moment and staying in the moment. And just the detail she was able to give was incredible. In reading that, I was like, how did she do this? We should be celebrating the fact that we've got an amazing witness here. For a long time, Nicole told me, her anger about what happened with the Ronard Park Police had pulled her focus away from the rape itself. But when she learned that her case was part of the series, her focus turned to catching him. And she wanted to understand how someone could become such a monster. I figured, Paul Holes might be the one with answers to those questions. After all, Paul's the guy whose parents gave him a book about sexual predators as a 25th birthday gift. For his whole career, Paul has been thinking about why and how people like Waller become boogie men. Paul started off with a bit of a story. He said, imagine it's nighttime and you're walking alone in a nice neighborhood. When you suddenly decide to step off the sidewalk and go through someone's gate into their yard, how would that feel? You get a little bit uncomfortable because in our society, it's like, well, that's that person's property. Now imagine being a peeping Tom, or not only you're walking onto their property, you're looking inside their house. For Waller, Paul said that part was probably thrilling. The next step was to go inside the person's house when nobody's home. That was the next social barrier. And only certain people, people like Waller, would cross it. There's like videos or valence videos of offenders that have broken into a house while residents are asleep and the vendor will just stand at the foot of the bed and watch them. That is a person that is fantasizing about taking that next step and going hands-on. Well, when somebody is breaking into a house and sexually assaulting, well, they likely have hundreds of burglaries in their past. I'm pretty sure this is North Cal Rape, this Waller. He is now getting off of being inside this woman's residence. He's probably breaking into homes during his teenage years. And he just starts ramping up. All assaults are so under-reported. There is a chance that in between some of these cases, he's got other victims that have just never been tied. He has to. I can't imagine. You don't just stop doing that. And you do see offenders will do cases and clusters. Sometimes you'll see an uptick in attacks when work is getting stressful or they get fired. Well, he had been fired that right for me. That's true. And at the time, he had two children with different mothers. One was a newborn. Waller remained unemployed for the rest of 1991, which overlaps with the rape and Sonoma, the one Nicole noticed in the newspaper. It's never been proven to be Roy Waller, but the MO was identical. Then in February, the day before Valentine's Day, Waller attacked a woman in Vallejo. There's two, maybe three, rapes in nine months, all while unemployed. A few months later, he got his job at UC Berkeley. Nicole also wonders how Roy Waller found her. The general assumption has been that he saw her add in the newspaper for a roommate. But that doesn't explain how he knew she'd had an expensive video camera in her house just a few weeks earlier. A video camera that she no longer had when she posted the newspaper at. And Waller called Nicole pretending to be Bob Smith. He probably got her phone number from the newspaper. But he may have begun stalking her weeks before that. His agitation about the camera is interesting, because I'm not thinking that the agitation is, well, he just lost out on stealing this very valuable camera. I don't need it. I think, and I will go to my grave thinking this. I think he wanted to record the act. Oh, sure. And that he was pissed that he couldn't. And so I think that's what really got him angry is that it wasn't there. But it's interesting because he stole my camera. And he took a picture of the top of his head with his hair. You can see his hair. You can tell something had been on it. Took a picture of the top of his hair, took the film out, left it on my coffee table, and took the camera. I mean, there's definitely a vorier type of aspect to him. I would not put a past him to have left a little message. I think when he was inside your house and he saw that camera, he may have left a message on that camera. Oh, I didn't even go there. I think he could have sat there and filmed himself. You know, that's part of his fantasy is he's left you a message. And now that's gone. Oh, God, I never even thought about that. That is really creepy. Yeah, no, that's what how these guys think. Which raised another question. Where did Walters M.O. come from? Nicole had told the detectives from Ronard Park that Walters crime seemed scripted and they took that in the wrong direction. But what she meant was that Walters every action seemed practiced. But you mentioned you think he's going off of a script. Yes, he is. He has developed a fantasy. He very well could have seen something that really kind of just turned him on. That reminded me a few days earlier when Paul and I drove through the East Bay along I-80 toward Palayo. He brought up the Zodiac Killer who has famously never been found. In the late 1960s, Zodiac killed five or more people, praying on couples. And you know, Palayo is Zodiac's stocking ground, right? Yes. There was that murder at Lake Varyessa, right? Yep, so that's, that was his third case. In 1969, the Zodiac Killer, wearing a mask and a weird costume, approached a young couple having a picnic near the lake. He threw bindings to the woman and had her tie up the man. Then the Zodiac Killer tied up the woman and stabbed both of them. Only the man survived. I've wondered if that attack inspired Golden State Killer with his MO and how he approached his couples. Interesting. Learning from the serial killer who came before him. And that's what they do. They pay attention. Nicole told me that when she heard that the Golden State Killer was caught, her first reaction was, huh? Maybe he has a son who became the Norco rapist. It was kind of a joke, but the idea was, like Paul said, these predators learn from the ones who came before them. And it fits in Roy Waller's case. He was born in 1960 and was a teenager in Lake County when Joseph DeAngelo, a.k.a. the Golden State Killer, was making headlines just 90 minutes south, breaking it to homes wearing a mask and binding and raping women. Lake County is also just north of Lake Berriessa, a key location in Zodiac, lower. So it's highly possible that Waller based part of his MO off of these two serial killers. One of the biggest unsolved mysteries of Nicole's case is the terrifying phone call she got in 1992. It was a year after the attack and she just got married. He was a big guy. He was, you know, a big Norwegian dude. I thought this guy can protect me. He can protect me from anyone. They had just moved into a new house in Petaluma when she got the phone call. And he said, well, I see you've moved. And I said, who is this? And he said, where's that little green robe? You might remember that the Petaluma police found the caller. He was a local guy who'd been in the military. And everyone's mind, including Paul's, the guy we're calling Carl G was suspect number one. But of course, Carl was eventually eliminated with DNA. It was like, how is this not him? What is interesting about the Carl phone call as well is that, behaviorally, it seems to fit what Waller would do, right? Yes. Well, Roy Waller called the Halloween victim like a month later at her job. Yes. Because Carl didn't do it, how does he know about the green robe? Maybe you remember this. I called every number I could find for Carl G and got nothing. So I emailed him. I wasn't sure if I had the right address, but eventually he emailed me back. And he gave me his correct phone number. Can't get enough of the story of Margot Freshwater. Do you need more than the episodes can provide? Real quick, we just launched a free true crime newsletter and community page to go along with our binge shows, including the crimes of Margot Freshwater. And you can access it at the link in our episode description or at patreon.com slash the bench. You'll get behind the scenes reporting, case updates, and a chance to chat with one of the shows creators and other fans. The newsletter comes out twice a month. It's totally free. And it's where the story continues. I'll see you there. Just hit the link in the description or head to patreon.com slash the bench. Hey, Sal. Hank, what's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvada and it was so easy, too easy. Think something's up. Shoot, tell me. They got thousands of options. Found a great car, a great price. And it got delivered the next day. It sounds like Carvada just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed. Buy your car today on Carvada. Delivery fees may apply. Hey, can you hear me now, sir? Yes, I can hear you now. There we go. The reason I'm calling is that Nicole knows and I know that you're not, you're not the North Carolina rapist, but you did make that phone call and you did know that detail, that robe. And for over 35 years now, that has been a mystery to her that she would like to resolve. Yeah. Here's, here's just as honest as I can be. Is that my memory of those days is really not great because it was just pretty regularly under the influence of something. I can explain to you my M.O. with regard to phone calls that I made in very addictive, compulsive, disgusting ways. It was luck. It was sheer luck. There was a way that I had of manipulating conversations on the phone much like a carocard leader that people would give up information that they didn't realize they were giving up. I believe I met Nicole at Red Lion Hotel and thought that she was an attractive person. And because of the way I sit in my own struggles, I would never have had a real chance at. So I would fantasize. Okay. So you're saying you met Nicole at the Red Lion, who was able to pass her name and decided to call her to take your fantasy just one step further and the robe was pure coincidence. It is finally numbered correctly. It's about what you give you. When we hung up, I puzzled over Carl's claim that he'd intuitive, like a psychic, that not only did Nicole have a green robe, but that the robe was frighteningly significant. It was the only thing she was wearing when the rapist attacked. Could anyone really intuit a detail like that from a 30 second phone call? That detail cast Carl as the rapist. So much so that not only did Nicole believe it, but so did Paul Holes, Avis Beary and Caleb Helt. Only when Carl's DNA didn't match, were they certain it wasn't him. Nicole told me she's never been to the Red Lion Hotel where Carl claims he met her. He may not remember how he came across her, or he may not want to tell me, but I don't think he found out about the robe through some psychic phenomena. And if Roy Waller told him about it. So I emailed Carl a photo of Waller circa 1991 and asked, do you know who this is? Carl wrote me back and said, unfortunately, yes. But he couldn't remember where he'd met him. Maybe at a bar in Roner Park, he said. So the green robe is still a mystery. One thing is clear to me though, even though Carl broke some of the social barriers Paul talked about, he never became a bogeyman like Roy Waller. Carl's now married with kids, and he admitted to me that he made a lot of mistakes. This was one of them, but he's trying to atone. Waller will live in a jail cell until he dies. He doesn't get a second chance. And in prison hierarchies, rapists are near the bottom. Will he die denying what he's done? Or can he find the courage to admit it and show remorse and give Nicole and maybe others? The answer is they're looking for. It turns out Nicole's interest in meeting with Waller isn't an anomaly. 30 states offer programs to facilitate meetings between victims and offenders, including California. The victim has to initiate it and the offender has to agree to it. They say it can help victims of violent crimes, including murder and sexual assault, heel. But they caution against it in cases where the offender acted in a sadistic way like Waller did. I sent information about the program to Nicole and she brought it up with Paul. I'm just more curious. I can tell you're a very strong person, but I can also see what he's going to try to do is he's going to try to push your buttons. And that might provide you some insight in terms of facts of the case that you're looking to get answered. But you may walk away and he's pushed a button where you're just like, oh, shit. There's a reason why some of these convicted predators, they're never shown photos of their victims because they feed off of that. And him sitting across the table from you could just be a big turn on. Because his fantasies never stop. They never go away. I always say you have to know how this type of offender identifies. So like BTK Dennis Raider. Dennis Raider, aka BTK, meaning bind Torture Kill is a serial killer from Kansas who killed at least 10 people. He was a churchgoer, a boy scout leader and was married with the two children. When he was arrested, he was going, that's all a facade. I'm BTK. He identified as the predator with Waller. How does he identify? While Waller was in jail awaiting sentencing, he occasionally talked with his family members on the phone. Nicole had heard about some of these calls. There was a lot of crying and sobbing. It's not me. How are they doing this to me? I'm being real worth it. Waller wasn't willing to admit that he was a rapist. The police planted the evidence. I can't believe this. Oh my god. You know. So then if he's admitting to you, here's how I did it, then he's also admitting that he lied to his family and his daughter on all those phone calls from prison. I found some transcripts of Waller's phone calls from prison to his wife. He acts like an innocent man caught in the web of a corrupt system. At the end of these calls, before saying goodbye, he'd say something really disturbing. He'd say, be careful. It's nighttime. Check the windows. Make sure all the doors are locked. It's chilling to read his words. He was lying to his wife by acting like she should be careful of predators like the NorCal rapist as if it wasn't him. I've since called some of Waller's family members. One of them hung up on me three times. Another doesn't want to discuss it. But a third talked with me briefly under the condition that I not used their name because they're afraid of some of the family members who believe he's innocent. The person I spoke with has known Waller for a long time. They told me he presented his normal, but that he could be socially awkward. He could be cringy in a sexual way. And there was just something about him. This person couldn't put a finger on it. It was off. But they never thought he was a serial rapist. Y'all, it is the middle of winter, but I still have goals. It's basically my daily struggle. I wake up. Tonight, I'm going to make something healthy, I tell myself. And then the day just happens. And suddenly, it's late. I'm white and cooking is the last thing I want to do. That's why factor has made such a huge difference for me. It makes a healthy eating easy. They have fully prepared meals designed by dieticians and crafted by chefs. So you can eat well without planning or cooking and all that stuff. 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The binge feed your true crime obsession. When Nicole told me she wanted to meet Roy Waller, I reached out to the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation for a referral to a facilitator who could tell me how these victim offender meetings work. They told me to call one of their favorite facilitators Rebecca Wiker, a co-founder of a not for private group called MEND Collaborative, which handles these victim offender dialogues Rebecca has been doing this work for 10 years. I asked her, how does the process work? So there's probably anywhere from four to nine to 12 months of preparation. We talk with the incarcerated person. We want to understand their insight into why they committed their crime. And with the survivor, we talk with them about what their experience has been and what they are hoping to get out of the dialogue. And this is a voluntary and confidential process. I've seen that people come with questions that have been plaguing them for decades and get answers. And then for the incarcerated person, they get to apologize, they get to take responsibility, they get to show up as a more than their crime as a full human being. I asked Rebecca, what if a victim wanted to meet an offender who was found guilty? But denied committing the crimes. And I didn't mean a situation where there was actual doubt as in a wrongful conviction case, but rather someone in outright denial of the facts. It's rare that somebody would say I didn't do it. And it's even more rare that they would say I didn't do it. And I'll still participate in a process where I'm going to engage with a survivor in some way. Those are not the typical cases that we get. I'll just say. Roy Waller's crimes are atypical. His denial is atypical. And his remorse, as far as anyone can tell, is nonexistent. What Nicole wants from him, he may not be willing to give. But he might be willing to meet with her. The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation has connected Nicole with a facilitator. It might even be Rebecca. But the rest of Nicole's journey to talk with Walt will be a private one. It could take months. It could also never happen. But if it does, I hope that Nicole gets the answers she's looking for. I won't be there for that part. But when I think of Nicole facing Waller, I see her getting answers and reclaiming control. It's a light on the horizon, a North Star, and she's moving toward it. Right after the trial in 2020, Nicole got a surprising email from a woman named Malone Melissa. When Roy Waller was arrested, investigators had knocked on Melissa's front door in Ronard Park and asked to come inside and measure her rooms for an exhibit at his trial. Melissa had no idea that her townhome was where the NorCal rapist committed one of his attacks. When she saw Nicole on the news, she put two and two together. Melissa emailed Nicole that if she ever wanted to come over to cleanse the place of negative energy, she was welcome to. Recently, Nicole decided it was time. So on a sunny day, we drove to Ronard Park to her old townhome. Yep, this all looks exactly the same as I used to. So where she's parked is where I parked my car. Yep. All right. So that was what I used as my front door. Oh my goodness. Here we are. Here we are. The memories look exactly the same. We walked through the gate and into Melissa's patio, and there she was. How are you? It's so nice to meet you. How are you? Oh my goodness. How are you? It's so nice to meet you. I was so pretty back here. Thank you. Nicole and Melissa hugged, and then she let us inside. I can't wait to see what you've done with the place. Is this the same door? Yeah, this is the... Well, no, I read it all the windows. Oh, you did. Okay. Nicole went right into this small living room. This is where my couch was. Yeah, this is where my TV was. Yeah, yes. Oh, can I if I go upstairs? Do you want to go to your cell? Sure. That actually would be great if I can. Oh. This would probably be a good place for me, sorry, I'm having a... This has always been the hardest part of these stairs. Nicole stopped halfway up the stairs, started to come back down, stopped again, and then tried to go back up. Yeah. I don't know why the stairs are a problem for me. I didn't know why the stairs are a problem for me. The stairs were not first realized that I was in real trouble. It wasn't until I was on the stairs, and the stairs are always a big problem for me, sorry. But actually, I want to be great. Thank you. Nicole had come so far, and yet, being in this house again, climbing the stairs to the bedroom, it was understandable that she struggled, but she didn't want to leave. I didn't expect that to happen at all. That doesn't normally happen, though, since 30-some-odd years. So I think staging is a good idea. How do we do this thing again? It's called smudging. Smudging. Smudging, I read, is a spiritual ritual of indigenous peoples in North America. It's meant to purify and cleanse a place of negative energy. I've never done it. Melissa and Nicole hadn't either. But this seemed like the right place to try it. Nicole had come down, and we were standing in the kitchen. She picked up a bundle of sage. You just light the end. You wait for the smoke to start to rain, then you blow it out. And you'll want to keep it over the bowl. Do we each do our own? I'll do one. I'll do one. Okay. And we light the whole thing. Until it's smoking. It's smoking. It's smoking. Yeah, maybe. It smells good. And then we start walking around, right? Melissa opened all the windows. Nicole walked to the corners of the room, downstairs, and fanned the smoke. It rose, pooled, and flowed outside. It's been a good amount of time where the couch was. Then Nicole climbed the stairs again, and waved the smoke in front of her. You know mine, if I go in your room? I don't. I didn't expect this. I didn't expect this. I'm going to let the stairwell out of our way. Unlock all episodes of Hunting the Boogie Man, ad-free right now by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get Binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts. All ad-free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series. That's all episodes all at once. Search for the binge on Apple podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Not on Apple? Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Hunting the Boogie Man is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and Perfect Caitons. It's hosted and reported by me, Peter McDonald. From Perfect Caitons, I'm the executive producer. From Sony Music Entertainment, the executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. The series was sound designed and mixed by Matt Gargol. We used music from Audio Network. The show's production manager was Sammy Allison. Our lawyer is Allison Sherry. Thank you all for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. It's the best way to support us. Thank you for listening.