Real Housewives’ Producer on Casting, Firing and Female Friendships

On day 3 of leftovers for lunch, have a day off? Switch it up with a double cheeseburger for £249 on the McDonald's Savour menu. Leftovers left the chat. Talk about Savour satisfaction. Served from 11am, price and participation may vary, fees apply to delivery orders, subject to availability. In a world of noise and uncertainty, IG is the investment platform that backs you. Take a Reflexible Stocks ICer, which gives you the freedom to withdraw funds anytime and replace them in the same tax year, all without losing your £20,000 tax-free allowance. And if that's not enough, pay no commission on your stock shares and ETFs when you invest with IG. IG. Trade. Invest. Progress. Your capital's at risk, other fees may apply, tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and is subject to change. Heather MacDonald has got the juiciest scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. So excited to have a first time Juicy Scoop guest. Paul Royston, he is a delight. He is adorable. Thank you. But more importantly, his career has been producing Real Housewife shows in the reality world and we met many years ago. And then I rediscovered your cute face telling Juicy stories on TikTok. And I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for coming. I'm honored to be here. Before I start, I had to tell you, you are a part of my gay awakening because- Love it. Nothing can be more flattering. Yeah, I was going to say, I hope you appreciate this. When I was growing up, one of my favorite books was I'll Never Blue Ball in this town again. Really? You read it? Absolutely I did. Oh my God, that is so nice. And I wasn't out then, but I'm like, hello, I mean I'm reading your book. And the straight guys are like, we're going to the football game in high school. I'm like, I'm at home reading Heather MacDonald's book. That's amazing. I love that. So you were a part of my coming out journey. So thank you for that. I always love it. I always love it when a cute guy comes up to me at a show and is like, my mom and I used to watch. And I'm like, I hope that mom knew that if your son was 13 and staying up late to watch Chelsea lately, and especially loving Heather MacDonald, you have a fabulous gay son. There you go. That was our whole environment in our house. And I was like, you literally comment on one of my reels when I went to go see Chelsea at her book signing and I got fired from my job at the time because Chelsea gave my brother a shout out on the show. Oh wait, I remember this whole story. You commented on it and you're like, I wish I would have known because I would have given you like a shout. I would have said something like on the show. Yeah. I got fired from my job because I called out rightfully so to do this and somebody saw the picture and I got fired from it. Okay, wait. So you had a job. What was the job? The gays in Philadelphia, the Phillies, if anybody knows that, the baseball team. And I worked like... I think people know the Phillies. I was like, I don't know. If your audience, I'm like, you know, the gays, hey, we're... It's the Phillies. It's the, you know, baseball... So there's a small baseball team called the Phillies. Yeah. Okay, yeah. And I once worked for them and I worked like, pitch them and tip them in like the fine plex where like the kids would go in there and I'm like... So I called out one day and some... Saying I am sick. Yeah. I don't even... To go do this book signing at the Philadelphia Free Library with my mom and my brother. Okay. And my brother, we got interviewed and the interviewer from the Philadelphia Inquirer was like, how is like your son who's 16 and your other son 13, like, love Chelsea lately as a mom? Like you let them stay up and watch it and that was like the article, right? Like so, so scandalous and it got out there and then Chelsea gave my brother a shout out on the show at the time. Yes. And that was that episode. Yes. And people found out about it and they were like, well, you weren't out and I'm like, what? So a drunken Delco mom got crazy and ran into the fun plex that day. Like what really could I've been doing differently that I could not miss this opportunity, right? Like, so yeah, I got fired for that moment. And what a full circle moment to be here now. And now I'm here on Juicy Scoop. I'm honored. So... Amazing. Yeah. So thank you for having me. So let's just get a little history about you. Yeah. After you lost your job at the time. Yeah. It was a long way. Did you then go on to college? Yes. Where did you go? I went to Temple University in Philadelphia. So I stayed there. I grew up in New Jersey. And how did you end up in the reality world? Yeah. So I grew up like watching you on Chelsea lately. I loved like the E news era of E. So I tried to finesse my way any way possible where I was like, I need to get out of New Jersey and Philadelphia and I need to get to Hollywood. So my first job was working for E on the live from the red carpet show. And then I was like, okay, I'm finessing my way into the, you know, newsroom. That's a couple of floors above because I've always grown up watching it. I grew up with like the Ryan Seacrest, the Juliana Rancic. Love. Yeah. And it was like such a time. I mean, you know, you literally were there. Oh, you were the best. Yeah. And I'm sad because I miss like the Wilshire building, which I know was where you guys were at. It was just such a... Yes. And it was always just weird. No, we weren't at the Wilshire building. We were just there for other things. We were at a building that we shared with Hulu. And we're like, Hulu, like that's ever going to make it. Like we were such assholes about this. That was at Olympic and Bundy. And then she got her New Deal and moved to Universal. Oh, okay. And we took over the studio that Conan had had. And then it ended there. But like, which was better for me because it was closer. But yes, that Wilshire building was where it was at. The fashion police. And, you know, we knew other people that worked under their shows. And it was a golden era. Now it might come back because it's coming back with the golden life. Yes. And which is interesting that the girls are going all, going back to E. And I think that's a smart move because now E is no longer part of Peacock. So who knows, it could be a whole new thing. It's kind of reinventing itself, I think. Yeah. Well, that's why at that time when I really was like, I want to work there. It was so lively. It was just everything was going on. And then I was at E news. I worked on like Daily Pop and I was like, I feel like this checks a box, but it doesn't fully check everything. Like I loved pop culture. I loved like reality TV. And I was like, I need to get like my feet wet and I need to get in here. And I thought being like young and like being in TV, the jump from entertainment news is going to be so easy to get into reality TV. And then like I left that job at a short stint on like this Lindsey Lohan, like post production show for her like short live Greece show, whatever that was called. I just talked about that the other day about she had a beach club. It was like very short lived, no good promotion. And it was a one season wonder. But what was that? Wait, so she moves to Greece where she had they just gave her a beach club. They just what they thought you could be like Lisa Vanderpump with a beach club. Essentially, the idea. Yeah, it was like, let's do a Vanderpump role. There's drama and someone misses their shift or didn't fill the champagne bucket. Yeah. Yeah. You know, big things like that. So I had this like, you know, gig to work on like a post clip show to promote it. Yeah. And it was like six weeks. And then after that, it was like crickets. Like I didn't work on anything because I was like, oh my gosh, I've no like you have to start over, you know, working from entertainment news to get into the reality TV world. So I'm just like, OK, this is more of a hustle than I really thought it was going to be. So months go by and my first reality TV credit was Vanderpump rules. Oh my gosh. Wait, you know what? Let's like jump to Vanderpump rules. It's not wasn't my original order. This article just came out. Jack Taylor, formerly a Vanderpump rules in the Valley and Brittany Cartwright have reached a custody deal with alcohol restrictions. We're all rooting for Brittany always. And they're coming back with the Valley and Lala and she are good friends. I'm good friends with Lala Lala has said, Brittany's doing great and doing it, you know, and I I did not stop following Jack's as he disappeared off of Instagram. I feel like we have not seen him. I was going to say it's been very quiet from what I've seen and like things that have come out. But I always laugh because I feel like he is who like what you see on the show is who he is in real life. Like the first time that that season that I worked on, it was the season that they got married. Oh, yeah. And I was like, you know, oh, I'm going to go and like all these fabulous trips and it's going to be like, you know, I don't know, like the beach or something something exotic. And I got flown to the Kentucky Castle for my first round. Like, OK, like this is how was that? Oh, I mean, so you so that was their wedding. Yes, that was their wedding. I do remember there was some controversy about the wedding that caused that contributed to the cancellation of them. And I believe them getting asked to leave the show, which was that their pastor had a without spoken about maybe not being as accepting of gay people being married and being part of the church. That's what I recall. I remember that. And the craziest thing was that the week that we were there doing it, it was Lexington Pride. I'm like, I didn't even know Lexington like had a pride. And I remember I went out with one of my crew members, but. Was it a good pride? Was it fun? I mean, I mean, we're going to support, you know, the community. But is it like West Hollywood where they go all out? No, not necessarily. But I I remember just the irony of that happening with like the family and, you know, all the things with the pastor and then I'm like, we're here and this is Lexington Pride. But no, didn't they didn't have the pastor, right? They didn't. They decided Lance Bass. Yes, because Lance, that was the big thing. Like he came in that season. He was at the wedding. But I remember now that you're saying it, that was like a thing that came out where like everybody was like, do they do it? Do they move forward with this person? Like what? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I was the wedding fund. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, you go into these shows and you think like, you're going to be like a part of it or like get to enjoy it. And I mean, you're sweating your ass off. I'm like, my armpits are sweating. I got ass cracks. But like, you know, I'm here doing this and you're watching it from above and you're like, OK, it looks beautiful, but you know, you're not in the mix. And in that time, your job, you are like what? Hustling the talent, taking notes on the scenes. Like what what is it like to be a rally show like producer? Yeah. So for that, I was a segment producer. So like there's, you know, so many there's you got talent, segment field. For this particular show, I was a segment producer. And you know, what you do is usually clear location. So I remember like that first time on Vanderpump Rules, I like it was my first location and we did it at Alcum Padre. And I remember they were like, you know, the crew, the crew showed up at the wrong location, like, what are we going to do? We got to scramble and like, you know, this is my first one. You're like, shit, what do I do? Like, so it's things like that for segment where it's like, you know, you got to make sure that like the crew's in there, they're getting, you know, everything set up, you know, the talent's good and stuff. But for the Kentucky Castle, there wasn't really much for me to do at that point. Because I already, you know, I had a supervising segment producer and actual segment producer above me. And then I was kind of bottom of the food chain. But I remember, you know, just kind of going along with the flow and like just seeing what was happening. But I always laugh because that was like the first time that I tried to open up my relationship when I went on Vanderpump rolls. What do you mean? Open up. Like I was with my boyfriend at the time. And you were like, let's have an open relationship. Like we could fill it out with other people. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, and I remember I was like, not really into it, but I'm like, okay, you know, as a gay, I feel like it's a rite of passage that you need to do this, right? Like, let's do it. So I ended up going on Grindr. You know, you're in this hotel room by yourself and I start talking to this guy. And this guy is very like aggressive and he's asking about like my boyfriend at the time and I ended to find to come out that he ended up finding my boyfriend that I was dating and my boyfriend and him at the time were having like a secret thing on the side because this guy found me on social media while I was in Kentucky. And him and my boyfriend had like this little, like a fair like sexting, like social, like while I was in Kentucky for this. So I'm like, yeah, just like the irony of like the gay, a whole pastor thing to tie it back. I'm like, this was how my journey went. Cause I'm like, you know, it gets lonely when you're on set sometimes and you're in the field and they are broken up. Now we all watched it from home and you want a route for them. I liked them both separately and everything. But the girl saw poor Britney saw the whole experience happen when he slept with the other girl, Faith and it all came out and you know, rotten hell. And so, you know, is there, was there any like any doubt that it's over with anybody being like rolling their eyes at this wedding or was everybody like bells on this marriage is going to last forever? I mean, I feel like I remember the consensus of like the cast, like the, the peers, like, you know, there, because I remember there was one time when I worked with, uh, we were doing something at hide on sunset and I was segment producer for it and Jack's came in and it was like, you know, man, everyone thinks that, you know, we're against gay people. Like I love gay people. There's gay people in my wedding and I'm like, I love that. He's saying it to like the one gay guy that's on the crew and it's me. And I'm just like, yeah, like, you know, I totally see it. You know, I never got any vibes that they were homophobic. You know, like they're not. Absolutely not. I was just, oh, hey, this is my pastor and nobody bothered to go. Let me just make sure that, you know, you, I could see why you didn't. A lot of people that aren't famous, that are getting married, I was at a wedding. Yeah. And it was like a family, whatever, adjacent wedding. And the pastor literally was saying kind of very non-inclusive stuff. Yeah. And some of the other, like, like we all had tension because we're all like, I'm bothered, but then also I'm like, I know my kids are going to be bothered. I know the cousin, they're bothered. Like, and we're all like, this is what are you supposed to do? And I don't even think that the bride and groom, like, thought about the whole thing of what that could be like. So young people getting married, you know, it's an important thing. Like, we just make sure that you're, because I don't think it had, no, of course, I don't think either one of them are at all homophobic at all. No, definitely not. And I mean, I think it's public knowledge because the mom was very like, Brittany's mom on the show was like, are you get, like, I think she like school jacks on one of the episodes. Do you remember that where she was like, asked Jack's if you get. Yeah. Remember when Jack's had like the. The old man that you worked with and lived with. And that came up at one point. And I remember like while we were filming, you know, there was, cause it was Lexington Pride, I remember some people of her family, like, didn't want to film at certain places because of it being so close to the Gay Pride Festival. So I mean, and when I think about that, I just, when I, when you're there in Lexington, I mean, in Kentucky, I'm like, can you, I mean, you can't fault, I, you can fault these people for thinking that way, but like, you can't blame her, right, that her family's like that. Because I mean, when you look around, you're like, yeah, it makes sense. Why these people cannot be so open and understanding. Right. And you can't control everybody that goes to your wedding or everyone that's in your family or what they put on their front lawn. You know what I mean? It's just like, yeah, I totally see that, but it sounds like she'll be thriving. And yeah, I don't know. I hope Jax is doing better. I don't know what he is doing. I mean, I thought maybe he, maybe he'll be coming back and doing a parent. It doesn't sound like he's in this season at all. That's what it sounded like to me too. Like I thought he's just completely out, not in the picture and it's just. And not filming or anything. But I don't think that will hopefully that won't be forever. No, you know, I'm like thinking if he does get it together and maybe she has a boyfriend and he comes and is supportive of the boyfriend hanging out with crews and then they could move him back in. I mean, he is just a very entertaining person to watch. Well, there's also something even when he's, you know, out of his mind. Yeah. Like it's just like, yeah, you just can't believe he's just such a character, you know. Well, there's always something funny. I mean, I guess it's not funny, but to me it's like there's always like a circle of life on these shows, right? Like Stacey, she was, like that season that I worked on thriving, you know, she had the, I remember saying to her like, oh my gosh, you're having the best year ever. Like, you know, she got engaged. She had the book tour. She was getting a spin off, I think, or like podcast series or something. And then she ended up getting canceled, right? And then it kind of just completely won a skew. And then we didn't see her for a little bit. And then now she's kind of back up and it's like taking accountability. She's moved forward. I think, you know, she's apologized for it. Jacks, I feel like the same thing. Like we saw a really dark side of him. Things kind of hit rock bottom. And then I feel like now he's going to kind of disappear. And then at some point he'll come back around. What do you think about James Kennedy? Do you think we'll hear from him again? I, I, the last thing that I saw, what was the, there was a big thing that happened with he was with his girlfriend and there was an account that there was a domestic violence call and she, he was not charged with anything formally. And she, she did not press charges. They did break up. Yes. But the account that was told to the cop, which got out to the press was enough to make, I think everybody just be like, there's too many other things. His relationship with Kristen Doty. There were other stories with Raquel, Rachel Raquel. And, and so, you know, and he was really out of height of a thing. Yeah. I saw him the night that that happened. And he was, is Kathy Hilton's like Christmas party through Directing. Oh yeah. Yeah. And he was, you know, very excited about all the, all the opportunities coming up. He's pitching shows. He's doing this, the DJ careers popping. Vited us to, you know, he had like a residency. I mean, I don't, I don't, he's another one that I don't know if I stop following him or I don't think I did. I just don't see it like in the cycle of things, you know, and. Well, see, that's the thing too, is like you're high. You're such a hot commodity. That's why I always think it's so interesting. It's like when you're popping and like you are, you know, in thriving on one reality show or an unscripted project, like people are going to find ways to like pimp you out in other ways, right? Like you're going to get the podcast deal. You're going to get a spin off series. So I always just think it's so interesting how something, I mean, granted, domestic violence is a very serious thing. But like, you know, when you are at that height of it, you know, you said that he's pitching all these shows, you get so much momentum, but that as soon as one thing goes wrong, it's like, you're forgotten about, you know, Jax, we don't see James Kennedy, same thing. It's just like you go completely off the radar and no one, no one will touch you. Everyone's got that one friend who's always wearing the cutest outfits and you're like, where did you get that? Can I just go shop in your closet? Well, that is what not. What not is the greatest shopping app. It is the number one live shopping app in the US where shopping happens in real time with real people, real conversations and incredible deals. You almost never pay full price. 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Welcome to the naughtiest show on television to the unmissable crime drama, High Potential. Got a dead body. Got to go. A lifetime of great stories awaits this spring on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. What do you think about Tom Sandoval? He's still hanging on for dear life. Yeah, I think there because you know what I think the best thing was just so much around his life. Yeah, traders was the best thing for him. Totally. Because I think when you get out of like when you see people like Lisa Renault and traders, right? You know what I mean? There's something in Candice on traders. Like you get to see them in a different light than being in that type of pressure cooker and environment. And I feel like it get you get to see more of like a silly side or maybe not a side where you're like going in and you're like, oh, I got my box and gloves on bitch. Like we're going at it as each other. Like the traders is such a weird, simple yet fast, great. Yeah. I don't know why it's it's just such a great. It's so great. And there's house of villains and things like that. But it's just not for me hitting like the traders. I hope that people are thinking of other type of shows like that. Yeah. That can really make it so fun for these former big reality stars to still kind of stay relevant and show what made them famous. Like I would like to see Jax or James Kennedy on the traders. Yeah. Like to me, that would be interesting. I'm so happy you're saying that because I just met with somebody who was a network exec and I was saying how I love an underdog like a one season wonder or somebody who just kind of fell off and you like to see them kind of pop back up. And I always am trying to find, you know, being in the unscripted world. I'm always like, how can you find these type of people who maybe like haven't had big momentum, but you want to see how they would be in a different format. Like kind of what we're talking about. And the problem is, you know, people are like, well, they have the traders. That's where these people who kind of, you know, go into oblivion kind of can revamp their career. But I'm like, there's something different where I would love to see like you have these OG people like, you know, Teresa, Nini, you know, people who Bethany. What do you think about just doing like a traders or type of traders? For me, I don't watch the challenge and the survivors anymore. And I get that they mix them all up. And also that might make it fun because it was like, oh, the housewives are going to have. And when they're like, the housewives are going to have each other's back. I'm like, when they've never had each other's back, why would they have each other's back from a different even franchiser season? Like they can't have their own cities back like who. But like for me, I would I think it would be more, it would be fun just to see it with bravo should be working on shows like a traders, but just for bravo past talent. Well, because I think there's a lot like these one season wonders that go on housewives, right? Like, where are they? You know, I want to know what they're doing. Like I want to see if they're down and out and they're losing paychecks and they can't, you know, live the same life that they used to. Like those are the type of people that I'm like, oh, it'd be really interesting. You see the people who have built an entire career off of it, like a Nini or Teresa or Bethany. Like I was saying, and then you see the people who literally have no momentum. They have no star power and they haven't had that same kind of luck. So I'm always like, oh, right. But then, but then there'll be something negative that follows them forever. Like sadly on real housewives of Osea, Lynn Curtin's daughter is really struggled and some buddy with an iPhone found her and, and, you know, and then I think that person, God bless them. But I also feel like that could be a little unsavory. Like she keeps going back to her and Lancaster and being like, well, we're trying to get you some money. And I'm like, okay, so you're collecting the money, whoever's doing the phone. And then we're supposed to believe you're giving it to Lynn Curtin's daughter to stay in this growth. So like the whole thing. And then people are like, no, Lynn's trying to help her. And then she ended up doing an interview. And, you know, when she tells her story, she's like, I was 15 or say, sister, we're like 15, 16 when the show started on the show. We were actively drinking. They showed that in the original episode. Like our, we get evicted the same week that my mom is getting a facelift. They end up getting divorced. It's just, yeah, of course, that is such a vulnerable time for a teenager. And at that time, there wasn't social media, but they were also like one of two shows like so of this. So there was a lot more eyes on the show. Yeah. And then to have it go and be able to repeat over and over while she's down and out and struggling with addiction. I mean, that's the part where it's like, I know. Well, that's the thing, right? Like, do viewers really want to watch that? Like, no, no, yeah. And that's kind of like the Mary Cosby of it all with Salt Lake City, you know, with people talking about like, oh, is it too soon for people to pick up cameras and start putting them in your face when you're going through something as serious as that? I've always viewed housewives as like escapism. But then for me, I like, you know, where things are real, because I think the big thing that I always say now is like on the casting side, you can see when people are coming in and they know, I got to check this off the list. I got to act this way. I got to show up this way. I got to flaunt this type of lifestyle. And when I know it's so tragic and dark, but like that is real life, right? Like you're getting to see a real emotion. You're getting to see real things unfold. And that to me is kind of what. I think it's a really hard thing because as the talent, as Mary Crosby, there's two ways to look at it. One is I'll just not share this and go mourn by myself. Mm hmm. Which sounds awful. Or I'll use this opportunity to shed a life on this, you know, epidemic. And also be busy. You know, a lot of people after a tragedy, they want to go back to work. They want to, you know, because they're like, I don't want to just be left at home to like wallow in my bed. Like I need to like get up and do other things. So I mean, it's one of those things I don't think anyone can judge. And as long as she wants to do it and is on board to do it, then I think it's, you know, it's up. She's going to do it. That I don't think they should say, no, you can't or you have to do it. You signed a contract. Like, yeah. And I'm sure that it was a mutual agreement to share this part of her life. Oh yeah. I mean, I think of like when I have worked as like a talent producer on these shows, like I always felt conflicted in those moments. I mean, granted, nothing ever as serious as that. But when, you know, a housewife like comes to you and your job is to like build a relationship and really like, you know, develop trust and understanding. It's very like conflicting. I feel when they come to you because they know they can trust you. You're this outlet. You have all these cooks in the kitchen and they're like, you're the one person that I can go to and divulge this information. And sometimes, you know, it's your job to like navigate. Okay. Do we put this on camera? Do we show this to the world or do I respect this person's wishes? You know, telling me, hey, this is between me and you. I'm just trying to like, you know, I feel like, I feel like the relationship the relationship between a housewife and her real housewife producer is the traders. It's basically the traders. Can I trust you? Got you a trader or you're faithful? Are you truly? Well, that's it's a test. Yeah. Are you truly my friend as my producer or are you really Annie Cohen's best friend? Like, what do you like? That's such an interesting position to be in. And I've always, I've always thought a great scripted show would be something fictional like housewives behind the scenes and the star would be a producer who's gets, because every season could be like a different thing and they get caught into it. And I always believe if like, I mean, I don't know how much the networks would want the cameras to really showcase those things, but like the casting part of it, the talent producing it, like that's a series in itself. Right. Like, I mean, how conflicting is it? You know, if somebody sent their saying like, Hey, I, you know, I know this woman's really struggling, you know, her husband's cheating on her. I know this is happening. You know, she's my best friend. I don't want to put that out there. She's telling me this now and I'm sitting there like, okay, I really love this person who I've developed a relationship with. But if she says this and that other cast me is going to know that it was her that said it, right? Cause she's the only one that's privy to it. And then that demises their friendship. Then that comes on me that I betrayed someone. It's just like so messy. Now in protecting you in your position. So hypothetically, this is the situation. Maybe not you. Yeah. But what other producers figure out a way to get that juicy information out there without jeopardizing the relationship where the one housewife is like, I can't believe you told like, I, I think, you know, we've seen it like with the New Jersey where it would be all of a sudden, uh, Teresa would go, well, I heard a rumor that what was the girls? What was the Jackie Gulchner? Yeah. She's not in the photo. I heard that Jackie's, you know, her, uh, Evan was, Evan was, uh, messing around with the gym, which I'm like, at the gym, I immediately thought this is a double juicy scoop because I just thought like, gay shit, right? You're at a gym. I didn't think, I didn't think hitting on a girl or helping her do her squats. I just immediately thought like, you know, you're on grinder. Yeah. Like I know her top room in Kentucky. The sauna is like, okay. Like I don't know what happened. Yeah. So I was like, oh my God, I can't believe she's saying that. Well, it was just a rumor. Well, where did the rumors start? You know, and then sometimes as a cast member, you're like, okay. So now to get the story off of you or you have no storyline at any moment. So I kind of want to know what you guys think as that at any moment. I go to the dinner party. I've been on the show for five years. It's the real housewives of, you know, West Lake Village. And I go and I sit down and I'm like, I mean, I had a rumor that Sasha's husband was seen with like a really young gay guy in Port of Arta. Yeah. So that you would most likely have already, like if you're a talent producer, you're already talking to them about like, hey, we're going to try to get this scene with you, you know, at here, XYZ with this amount of people, whatever. So at that point, if they know that they're going into that scene, like, they're going to be like, oh, in their mind, it's going to be like, am I going to bring this up then? Right. Like, is this going to be the moment that I'm going to unfold and drop that bomb? So now here's the hypothetical. Yeah. Um, I go do that. Okay. And I tell another girl that, that this other person is where you go on the show. I had a rumor he has a little gay boyfriend. Okay. And they were in Port of Arta together. And that girl kind of knows it's true. Okay. But she's like, my friend is fine with him having a secret gay lover, but this would destroy her family, the conservative relatives. She wants to stay married. The little gay lover does her hair extensions for free. She doesn't want this out there. I was going to say, she might like that. She doesn't want this out there. She does not care. She doesn't want to fuck the husband. She's glad he's gay, like whatever, but she doesn't want to out this out there. And so then that girl goes, Bravo, Bravo, fucking Bravo. Excuse me. And she gets up and she goes to you guys and she's like, cut, cut. Do not put that in. Now what do you do now? See, well, they're airing that shit because that's on camera. So she's already, if you're blowing up and you're making that, like then now they're going to die. Oh yeah. Now they're dying deeper. Yeah. If I'm somebody who they're, they're just telling me on the phone and they're like, you know, kind of giving me tidbits. That's for me to say, okay, is this something we can push forward? Is this something that feels like there's holes in it? Yeah. It's not adding, not adding up. Cause sometimes also like you got to remember if you're on camera and like you're watching a wife and a husband and their chemistry is completely fucked and they're not like intimate or they're not seeing each other. You're going to be like, okay, we're a producer. Like we're going to start pushing holes in this and seeing what's going on here. But if on camera you're showing up, making it look like it's the best thing in the world, but somebody knows something that the producers don't know, then that opens up a whole another can of worms. For that example though, you're seeing that. So you're going to push that further, right? Like you're going to dive in and now get to the bottom of it. If you're coming in saying, bravo, bravo. I wish that was a real storyline. That's so good. Oh yeah. I mean, I'm sure that, honestly, I'm sure that there has been that. We just haven't seen it. I mean, there's been a couple of questionable relationships on that show and throughout the cities. But yeah, I mean, for me, it's just hard. Like I always felt like so empathetic because I'm like, oh, I love these women. They show up, they give us their all for the most part, a majority of them. They're coming in. They know it's a paycheck. They're dedicated to it for the most part. And when they start to feel like you're their outlet, because if they tell XYZ on the show, they know it's going to become a storyline. So it's like that hard balance where I'm like, oh, you're their friend, but then you're also like their coworker. And it's like, how do you navigate that balance of not putting their shit out there and losing their trust? The whole job for that particular role is building trust within somebody, right? Field producers. How does someone like, is there a training process for what you do? No, no, there isn't somebody who's like, you're going thrown into the world. Yeah, you just kind of figure it out and you kind of develop your own style. Yeah, I've gone through field producing, segment producing, casting producing, development producing, all of the above. And I feel like you never get a full like, OK, let's have a training manual that you're not, no, you're getting like thrown into. I mean, even casting, right? I mean, there's things where I've had women, someone say hypothetically is telling me, I mean, I put this out on social media, but one of the shows I was casting for, a woman was referring her friend to come on the show. And this woman told me like, hey, one of my children is not my husband's biological child, but this is something that we're not going to talk about. It's just off camera. She referred a friend and her friend is now putting that information out there to try to get on the show and make it a storyline. I'm like, that is so fucked because that is like your girl. That's your best friend, right? So I'm like, it just examples like that, like, you know, people know what they're doing. It's it's very hard to navigate that. But so the friend was like, I have this nugget. Yeah, yeah. And I'm jealous of my friend who's a regular on the show and I want to get on it. Yeah. So if you have me on it, I will throw this nugget bomb at a luncheon. Or if like, you know, this is going to be, I'm letting you know this because maybe this could be a future story that could unfold. So is that a problem too in that the audience after 20 years who also might want to be cast members have become so savvy and sophisticated that they're coming and they're whatever being secret bloggers like Monica Vontese, what was that? Reality Vontese. Yeah, reality Vontese on Real House of Salt Lake City and like, you know, maneuvering their way into it or giving info to secret bloggers or they're the secret blogger or does that make it harder or better? I mean, this point, does that help storyline that we're in this situation? Does it? How I mean, I personally don't like it because it's been done so much now. Like, if you're going to do like it's like the binder of Atharanians. It's like, if you're going to come here, like give me Kenya more scepter at least, you know, like that was something different. Like now I hate the same song and dance repeating. So I'm like, listen, I'm not going to stop someone's hustle and get their bag. Like if you're trying to come on the show, just be quicker and savvy about it. If you're going to do something we've already seen. No, that's boring. Like I had in, you know, we were casting for a show and one of the women found out one of the girls in town was on the show. She gets my number somehow being a casting producer, I guess it's just now out there and she's like lambasting this cast member on the show saying, if you want to know XYZ, she's a fraud. She's, and to me, it's like, I get she's mad, but and she probably thinks it's her way of getting on a show, but it's tasteless because I'm like, you're doing something that we've already seen, like your bad mouthing, somebody saying they're a fraud, they cheat on their husband, they're scammer. It's like, come up with something better. You know, like I'm just like, give me something more. Come up better than a grifting cheater, Gold Digger. Because we already did that. And just kind of like telling the cast. Are they a vampire? Yeah, like give me something fresh. Like, do they take their head off at night and replay? Like what do you know, what are they doing? I just need something more than this. Like, and yeah, I'm not mad at that. I think like, if somebody's truly not forthcoming and they, you know, do have skeletons in the closet, you know what you're signing up for too. That's a thing. Like on these shows, I always say, like, look, you're coming on these shows. You're doing it. Uh, I just said this recently. It's like, you know, I've talked to like a billionaire's wife on the show, like to see if they would go on it. Like if you really want to be on this type of show, you know what you're getting yourself into, you know, you're signing up for, um, and it's a huge platform. And I think people, whether they have money or not, they want to do it for the fame and, you know, these people will sell other people down the river because they're like, well, I want my ticket. I want to get on the show. So I always think the behind the scenes of like all the casting stuff and just the, the trying to get on the show and the tactics, like that to me is just so interesting because it, you have to be so calculated to do that kind of stuff. So it's just so, it's crazy to me. Keep the cuddles and lose the mess with advantage. Just one tasty tablet kills please and ticks for a whole month. No mess, no stress. Just one tasty tune. Advantage, chewable, flea and tick protection made easy. Find out more at advantage, chewable.co.uk. Easy to love, easy to protect. Advantage, chewable. With Woot, you can focus on living better for longer. Understand your sleep, optimize your training and build habits that support your wellbeing. Woot gives you personalized insights into your sleep, your recovery, your strain and the patterns that may influence how you feel. With more clarity and consistency, you can create routines that support you throughout the year. Add more life to every moment. Discover Woot at Woot.com. Let's go and talk a little bit about one of the shows I'm watching right now, which is Real Housewives of Beverly Hills this season, has been a little criticized as being not very juicy, not very eventful. I, yeah, a little bit. I will always watch these women. I'm always like down. What do you do when just not a lot's happening with the cast amongst each other and also not a lot of exciting things are happening in the people's lives? I mean, sometimes you have at 50, you have kind of a smooth year and this is about your life. Sorry, I'm not remodeling my house. Sorry, my mother has been dying. My husband's not cheating. I'm not getting divorced. You know, my kids are fine. No, my husband's gay secret lover is not adding hair extensions into my hair. You know, we're not doing like literally my other side career is not existing. I'm not doing Halloween 52. Like what? Halloween 52. Like I'm still separated from Maricio on the fourth year. Oh, I have strong opinions on this. So let's hear. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So tell me. So and meaning and so when you said like, what do you do in those situations? This to me all comes back to casting, right? Yeah. This show is hard to cast. I've worked on this. I've casted on the show before. Yes, particularly. Yeah. Okay. It's hard to cast because the caliber is these women need to check a lot of boxes. You're in LA and Beverly Hills. You represent wealth, affluentness. Entertainment. Yes. Everyone's everyone's a little bit besides Sutton. Even I feel like Bose being that she was an executive. I mean, everybody on this cast throughout the years are like either entertainment, Hollywood or entertainment adjacent. Oh yeah. She and I mean, perfect example. She's smart. Which one? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you come on the show and look, she's on a show with Jimmy Fallon now. She's building this whole brand. Like that to me is the calculation of being smart when you're on a platform like this. Right. I feel like it comes down to casting because we just got to accept that the women of Beverly Hills, they're not friends. Like they really aren't like when you watch Salt Lake, you're like, these girls love each other. Like there's something there where they're connected. Right. I've been watching, I watched just as much as I work on it. I'm a consumer of it. And I was like, I have the last three episodes just been like three girls filming in the Hamptons by themselves. And then every scene is like someone just FaceTiming because the producers are like, okay, let's get a scene where it makes it look like you guys are communicating still because it just feels so disjointed. Then I feel like Amanda is just in her house by herself and like everybody hates her. And I'm like, what is that? Like what is going on? It just is like no one's connected at all. Yes. Um, and I think that's what's really hard because you want to have a boom moment. You want to have a Lisa Rena or Garcelle. You want to have Rachel Zoe. You stole my fucking house. Like, you know, like you want to have those. Well, you want to have the star power of bringing those type of women in. They're heavy hitters. They represent Beverly Hills. But when Rachel Zoe doesn't know anybody in the cast and it feels disjointed, it's like, well, yeah, that's why nobody's, no fights are really happening. Um, so I would say if I was a producer, now I'm having to deal with casting decision on that. Now it falls on me to be like, okay, what is the story? Right. What can we bring out of these women? What is actually happening? And it's how much those women are willing to go there and put out there. That's why I said like people are hating on Amanda. I kind of like her because I'm like, I mean, without Amanda, this show would really be struggling. I like a girl that comes in and it's like just making people mad for just being them. Like I love a delusional housewife. I love somebody who's all man manifestation whatnot. But, um, yeah, without her, there would be nothing. I mean, but I do think it is interesting and relatable that, you know, at one time, um, you know, Mauricio and Kyle and P.K. Andri had this great foursome friendship that we saw. This was the couples. And this happens in life. Not only do one of them break up, but you all break up. But then Kyle and Mauricio are having their cake and eating it too and eating each other. I mean, they're just staying married, getting along like, uh, you know, half brother and sister or something like, and then people are just like getting mad that she's not filing or whatever. And I'm like, listen, she doesn't want to split up the houses. Why would she? She doesn't. Yeah. Why would she? Why would he, when he can have another apartment, show up at all the houses, be good with the daughters, fuck young women and just go, who, who, who, and show up on the show and like laugh. And she doesn't seem to care because she's probably been checked out for years. And now she bought a place in Tennessee. Listen, he's not getting divorced because he makes his realms being married to her. He's been on Real Housewives, Potomac, keeping on. It's like the best thing ever. And I just think you're like, yeah. You know, yeah. Why, why would you have, I mean, I always said they're not going to get divorced until one of them truly falls in love with somebody else. And that lover partner is like, pull the trigger and do it. This isn't working. Yeah. Like we're not doing this anymore. And that's why I think the whole like secretive love affair with Morgan Wade had to be a secretive love affair because they were getting divorced. Yeah. And, you know, and, and now she's just like, okay, well, I'll, you know, walk around and I'll talk about Doreen and PK, which in real life, you would be talking about Doreen and PK with your friends. Yeah, of course. 100%. Your friends are your close friends going through divorce. Someone gets up from the table and you're like, Oh, do you like her new boyfriend? He wouldn't be for me. I mean, I'm, I live this life without cameras. Yeah. Yeah. That's what she would do. Yeah. It's like, Oh, well, you shouldn't be talking about that. Well, that's, that is reality. And like, if it's not juicy enough for you, I think it's, I think you can, what's good is that even though it's like a simple storyline, it's not, you stole my goddamn house, no one's going to rehab, but it is like, I miss this. It gives us people at home to go is, should Kyle shut the fuck up? Yeah. Is Kyle actually being concerned for her friend, which I believe does she even like to read it all? Should Dorit be annoyed that they're talking about her or not? I mean, I just kind of feel like, do you like, I'm over kind of the story. Like, I just kind of, like, I get why we get over the storyline, but that's where I feel like it's such a hard job because as someone who loves it as a fan also makes it part of my content and talks about it. I all, I sympathize with the producers. I sympathize with the lady at home who's bored. I sympathize with the person who's living life who's like, again, I'm sorry. It's my life. Do you want me to create something? Do you want me to file for divorce when I really don't want to? It would not serve me at this time in my life. Maybe in two years, I will. Maybe in 10 years, I will. Maybe I never will. Maybe we'll be grandparents together and call it a fucking day. I don't know. Well, that's why I think it's such a tricky show, right? Because I think if you lose, I'm like looking back and I'm like going through each one. I'm like, well, so if you lose Kyle, Kyle, you can't lose Kyle. Because at this point, it would, it would feel like nothing is there, right? Like it would just feel empty. But the thing is now what I realized over time and just the way that the housewives has been, you know, moving forward is that they want to skew younger. Because when you look at it now, Sutton, she's not married. She doesn't have her kids really on the show. I mean, who else is on it now? You have Amanda, who fits what they are looking for because she's got younger kids. She's like 40. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You see more of that. Erica, you don't see, she has, her kids never been on the show. She's not married. You don't even see the guy that she's dating. Duret, her kids are in it, but she's not married anymore. Rachel, Zo. I just realized we haven't seen the kids in it this season. I don't know if that's something they agreed together. I haven't really seen. I don't think she talks about them, but I feel like we don't see them. Not that we need to see them, but you know. Well, that's the thing is that with these shows, it's like, well, then what is it? Yeah, it's just that they don't have real like I when you fall in love with Housewives, it's because you had access inside their home. You got to see their day to day, waking up, taking the kids. Yeah. Like I remember one of the first years with with Kyle and when I had Kyle on my show, I remember I said this and at the time, you know, I had little kids and I just remember she's putting poor shit asleep. Who's like two and a half. And when you have a little kid like that, you know, they let's lay down with me, mommy, and she's having a party. She wants to get back to the party. And so she's like laying there and she's like rolling out of the bed down the hallway so that the kid doesn't wake up. And that's funny and like so relatable. Yes, exactly. I mean, it's like. And the problem is, is when the kids start not being on the show anymore, you're, I mean, I'm not a mom or a woman. So I can't speak on it, but you could, I mean, you're like changes. Like you're, you're not at home as much. Maybe you're not as involved in those type of day to day things. So what do you have going on in your life? Well, I, you know, not much. So it's like, yeah, how, how hard is that for a producer to try to pull those things out of it? Right. I mean, I just feel like for this particular city, it's been kind of the same storyline. Do you think like the merging of like, like I feel like for the, for the good cities that are like the city's also a character like New York and Beverly Hills where you just won't get tired of it. Cause you see these beautiful things. Like, do you think there'll ever be a time where they kind of just do Beverly Hills and they keep OGs and women at that age. And then it's like Beverly Hills 2.0. I don't know. I think the route that they're going to go forward more is new cities, new cities because I think you get, it's less money for the women. Everyone's starting off at a lower pay rate. Yeah. Less money. And it's a way to skew younger in terms of getting to see, you know, you like, you, you know, Kyle and you love Kyle cause you grew up watching her. Right. So it's like, I've watched her kids grow up when you see Porsha is like 21 years old taking shots at the bar. Now I'm like, you're like, Oh my gosh, I remember when she was in a diaper on the show, right? Right. So you're like, Holy shit. So you feel very connected to the, you know, as an audience member watching it. So I think my take would be, Oh, new cities fall in love with new people and they start to build momentum. I mean, Salt Lake had like, you know, a rough start, I think, you know, in terms of the fan base, and then it took a couple of years for it really to pop. But I foresee that happening with new cities and new new cities popping like Salt Lake. Yeah. Yeah. I think it just makes more sense. I mean, this brand, it's a brand. Anytime you see the Royal Housewives stamped on it, you're going to watch it. Right. So let's talk about ladies of London. There's just two episodes out. I think it airs right after Real Housewives Beverly Hills, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So there's two out and I'm obsessed. It was brilliant the way they marketed this. So I'm giving Bravo props like I always do, though I wish I'd get some props. But I turn to talk to to get that. I don't know. I turn with Andy. I turned out to watch what happens live and Bose was on next to I'm learning everyone's name. Oh, yeah. This girl with a pony, Micah. Oh, Micah. Yes. Yeah. She's the one that Darra is they had the falling out. Right. Yeah. And so right when it starts and he goes, now when was the last time you talked to Darra and she never came back to the show. Is it Darra or Darra? I'm saying Darra. I think it's Darra, right? I don't know. But so and she's never coming back to the show. And she's not in the poster. And I immediately go, oh my God, London started airing. I didn't even know. I immediately went over to Peacock and watch those two episodes because I'm like something went down where a cast member left after two episodes. Like I was like, that is juicy. So I start to. So I watched the two episodes and, you know, this they're not calling it real housewives. Do you know why? Because there is a real housewives of London. And they didn't, they just want to start fresh. Yeah. Well, because I think for them in the culture that we're kind of living in, most shows that are breaking through our shows that either have original IP of some sort, right? Like you already are familiar with it. Like I always say, like the only thing in my mind that has really stuck out in its own form is Secret Lives of Mormon wives because that's just like lightning in a bottle on a show. Right. But like these shows, like Ladies of London, you're already familiar because you know that there was already a series on Bravo before. So you're kind of like, oh, let's see what it looks like. So that is my take of why it's just a Ladies of London. Also, I think a ladies. So the Ladies of London. So you, so that could be. We could now do Ladies of Chicago. Yeah. We could do Ladies of, I think it's brilliant because. So many times they're not housewives. They're not married. They're not straight. And now we actually have a man on the show who is, I think the star of the show, kind of the anchor because he's friends with everybody. He's a producer. He's really funny. He's dry. He is a real producer. Like you could just tell as a cast man, like he knows, like he's like, hey, let's drive this story. And so, and I think that's the way it should go. I think if real housewives, I think should stay a cast of women. I mean, I think some things we just, you know, if they're not broke, don't fix it. We just have, but I like this Ladies of London thing where it's just, it's predominantly still women, but a guy doesn't just have to be the best friend that comes in and out. Like he can actually be a real person because he really is hanging out with these women and everything. Yeah. And of course, he's so funny and everything. I feel like they used to do that back in the day on housewives. Like, I mean, the gay wasn't like the real housewives of Atlanta. They had like, like those two guys. Yeah. They had, uh, oh my gosh, it was, uh, oh my gosh, one had cheekbones and one Dwight, Dwight, you banks and then it was like the hairdresser that was like Lawrence. Yes. So whatever. Yeah. And so, but this, but I kind of, this was a really good casting and you know, I've never even been to London. But again, gorgeous, gorgeous city. Yeah. So there's a lot to look at. So it just kind of transports you into a beautiful place. And these people are different. Yeah. It's fun. And there's a few hands. Well, like half is American, which I also like. And I can't tell who's who, but I was like, I don't even need to know who's who. Because if you have a premiere, like that was, I'm like, I'm just locked in and I'm going to figure it out along the way. Right. And I was confused in the beginning between the two older women, one that lives with a bird and one that looks like she has a weird lipstick. Kimmy and Margot. Those are those two. Yeah. Kimmy and the green. Right. So I'm like, those two are interchangeable. Then there's three brunette, like model actresses. Missy, I like her. That's the, the, that's the one who blew the whistle on Dar. I like her. She's gorgeous. You know, and then there's this beautiful black woman who's like, looks like Tandy Newton who has, you know, some type of royalty. I don't even care if she's boring. Yeah, I just like to look at her and I like her outfits and I like that she like lives in a castle. Anyway, the Micah story. So now I'm going to blow up the Micah story for you. So too bad, but you know, you can watch it. So Micah has this friend and she's American and she is kind of an influencer that's talking about etiquette. And she has this friend who she's like, oh my God, we are best friends in college. And she's this beautiful Asian woman. We don't even know her name, Dara Dara. And she's actually an architect and they are cutting it so brilliantly where the Dara girl is like, oh my barely knew Micah in college. We're not really friends. Like, and then they have this blow up scene where it's called out at the dinner that Dara has called Micah cringe and like Ben kind of nasty about her. And she just basically goes, this isn't for me and gets up and like. Oh, I mean, it's like, it's great. I mean, because now I'm like, oh, we're still not even in the story. Like the two episodes are just about this spoiler alert. But yeah, I mean, it completely takes a complete turn because now we're like, oh, that wasn't even fully getting into the story. That's like now one and done. Like we're over that related to the Dara because I'm like, if I was cruel and talked shit about my friend and was called out on it on camera and I didn't need to do this job, I think I might do the same thing. I might be like, just get me out. People will forget about it and people will. If this becomes a hit, people aren't going to remember that girl in a year or two. No, I don't. And then, but what I thought was really crazy in this day and age of Epstein files is that the rumor they drop in the first episode is that same woman, Dara, who is a bitch to Micah, is a madame. Yes, she's an alleged mystery. Yes. And a madame. Now this could be funnier. Ten years ago, when there was the happy hooker and there were the girls that were hooker lights like I used to talk about. And there was the Heidi Fleiss. But now it's all negative. It's all not one person wants to be a hooker unless they're on OnlyFans and they do it themselves. Everyone's trafficked. We never used the word trafficked before. So it's just like, if she's being accused of this, like setting people up. Well, it's just, it's a time that it's like you're, you want to watch how you are. Yeah, you're saying it. And I'm like, oh my God. And then the fact that that Dara woman like, was like, well, it's not true. So I don't. Well, that's the thing too, is that I said, see, when that's that first of all, great casting, because I mean, to me, I'm like, somebody had to reveal that there was a, you know, suspicion that she was an alleged madame. If that's already coming out, like the first one or two episodes, right? So like that to me is great casting. But for this, I think that's the problem is like running away from the cameras and doing that. Now they're breaking the fourth wall, which is what I love because I think it gives more insight on what actually, like you're seeing the producers hiding behind the back with the little monitor, you know, in the kitchen when she comes in and she's like, I'm done. I'm out, you know, and I think that to me is. And what's crazy when I heard about that she left the show for Andy Cohen, I'm starting to watch it. I'm like, oh, well, she's going to be like, you're accusing me of being a fucking man. I'm like, I'm out. Yeah. No, it was just she was being accused of being like a shitty friend or a shitty person and they all were like, we've all heard shitty things about her. The, the madam is probably the most flattering thing they said. Oh my God. Well, that's the thing too, right? Is that she came in, she obviously does well for herself financially. She came in for the fame and I'm like, what possessed this woman to come into a show where she's getting called a madam and this is like, we're not talking about like, I'm like, girl, that's child's play in the housewives world. You know, if you get called a madam, a hooker, like we, we, what did you think about it? Because I thought if someone said, like, I just had someone recently say, I heard that you, you know, someone told me you said this about me. Okay. I did a little miscation. I'm like, you got to, you got to mess with trauma troll. Like I've never talked about you outside of when we've run the show together. It's just, and what they said that I said was never anything I've ever said about anybody. It's, it's typical mean girl shit. It just, if you listen to me, if chat GPT, if you ask chat GPT, what's something mean Heather would say about another woman, it wouldn't be that because they would have taken everything I've said for 10 years and given the right answer. I'm like, this just isn't something I've said. So I did immediately like correct this girl and going, just can you look where the source is? This isn't because I didn't want this person to go to bed feeling that I would do like I was like, I know how it feels to be trolled by a troll and it's all made up just so they just were like, just want to fuck with people. So I'm always the one that's like, I'm always saying that about like juicy crimes too, like when someone's being accused of murder, I'm like, and they're just sitting there and they don't take the stand. I'm like, I think I'd be like, I didn't get it. You're going to fight for it. Yeah. No, but I thought it was like a very weird reaction when it came out when the Micah girls goes, look, they were talking at this party that you're a madam. And she's like, I know, right. I know it was like, it was very weird. I'm like, either you knew this scene was coming or you have heard this before or something, not that you were it and making a commission, but maybe there was something in your past where you did, well, introduce somebody to some situation that was a situation ship involving money. I don't know. Well, the producer had to like, there's no way that this would have been brewing and she would have no idea that this would have been the thing because I think Micah brought it up to her on camera. Remember? Yeah. And she was like, oh, well, someone told me like she deflected it. So she just gave me the vibe of she was somebody who probably was like difficult to work with in terms of like, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm going to completely shut down and you can't go on a show like this and shut down. Like that's just not how it works because you're going to need to defend yourself. You're going to need to push back. You're going to need to talk about uncomfortable things. I mean, the thing with Micah came up to her and was like, can we talk about it? No, babe, but I love you. And she like kissed her. It was like the weirdest thing. I'm like, what is this? It was like a Jesus and Judas thing. Like it was so bizarre, but I was like, I'm interested. I want to see like I want more, but that to me was just somebody who came in not knowing what this world entails and signed up for something that she thought was just going to be like ringbows and butterflies. And I'm like, that's not it, girl. Like, if you know, you're signing up for a show like this. And you know what also makes me excited about this is like the same way when people write me and they're like, OK, we're doing our girls weekend in LA and besides, you know, going to whatever this restaurant, what other like weird places we should we go or whatever. This makes me go, I definitely like want to plan like a girl's trip to London since I've never been and I want to go to that Asian restaurant. All the spots that they've gone in. Yeah, yeah, stuff because isn't it funny because people do that in LA all the time. They're like, let's go to sir. And I'm like, OK, and now we're like, no, let's go to London and do this. I'm like, I'm down. I actually would be really funny. It would be really fun. Anyway, everyone should watch it. I think it's a really fresh show. Now, there's rumors that Real Housewives of Miami is on an indefinite pause or not coming back. What can you give us any inside scoop? I don't believe that to be true because I feel like there's no way that they would just pull the plug on this. I think what this comes down to, again, casting you need women. First of all, the people love Dr. Nicole. She's never coming back to the show. She doesn't want to. And then you get somebody with like money like Stephanie, who's been vocal about saying, I don't know if I would put myself into that again. Todd has a lawsuit out against Bravo, apparently. But then he's but then she's back with him. And yeah, so I just think and then also, you know, you got to look at it. Larsa not married. Kids are older. Adriana, kids are older, not married. I'm trying to think who else. I mean, Lisa, she's going through a divorce, has young kids. But see, I see you just saying all that. I'm remembering them. And I I think they're all great. Like, I think I say, bring them back. Like, I feel like they're all like. I love it. I wish I was like, I don't make this is from like my understanding of just like where the the connection of where viewers don't like. I mean, they have a cult following, but like it's not. The ratings are skyrocketing, you know? And I think it comes down to why is this connection of the women and not having real story? I mean, like how many times can you watch Lisa go? You know, date, date and then fight with, yeah, fight with Larsa. Yeah, Alexia and it's Miami too. Right. Like it's a heart. It's like Beverly Hills, another city that it's hard because you get a lot of people who maybe look the part, but do they actually fit the bill? Like you can look the part, but do you have the financial means to live that lifestyle? Are you really connected to these women by any ounce of degree of separation to connect them to each other? And, you know, do you really have the personality where you can step in? You kind of get me thinking like with the Rhode Island coming and stuff and this success of Salt Lake City, even though I. Was sort of like not not overly into Dallas and I don't really miss it because I felt like there wasn't. I don't know. It's really about the people. So it's like, but I wonder, yeah, if the city is almost too big and the characters in it aren't big enough or something like it kind of has to fit. Yeah, it has to be the right size and the the the connection always has to be real, which is why like New Jersey and and, you know, the sisters, how it originally started was such a hit. What do you think will happen with New Jersey? We keep waiting to hear what's going on there. Same thing. I think they I think the network has been so used to turn and burn. Like, you know, they New Jersey infamous for that. I mean, they filmed a reunion while they were still filming a season at one point. Like they would just crunch these bad boys out. I think now because they know that other cities are coming, they have other shows, a lot more shows on their slate. They don't need to turn these shows out the way that they used to. And I actually think for a show like this, it's beneficial more time has passed because then you can get past. OK, we're not doing another Teresa versus Melissa thing. They made amends. They know what they're doing, you know, and it kind of lets things cool off a little bit. And I also think another city that's hard to cast just because we'll state to cast because, you know, who is really connected? Who fits that bill? You have really strong stars on the show. I mean, Teresa alone is, I mean, a star. You have Margaret, you have Melissa, you have Dolores. Like those are heavy hitters. So it's like, where did those girls stack to? And then you have to think the age part of it, too, right? Who were the women that are coming in with young kids. They did try to do it this season. I don't know. I mean, they didn't. Yeah, it didn't land, I feel like, for the viewers with these two, because I think the Teresa and Melissa stuff was so dark again. Yeah, it'll come back. I they're not going to cancel New Jersey. They're not going to cancel Miami either. I think it comes. I mean, I'm saying this, I don't 100 percent know, but in my gut, I can't imagine that they would let these shows go. It to me, it's all about good casting and taking their time with it. Yeah. Oops. I, yeah, I think it's interesting that they they just picked plucked Dolores out to go and spend a summer in Rhode Island. Well, see, that's where I think she has a genuine connection. OK. Yeah, to one of the women. And I feel like that is a smart move. Yeah. Them doing that, because I even feel like, oh, the New York reboot. Carol has now has been announced to be in the mix of it. And I'm like, oh, OK, this is really smart and a good tactic because you bring in that core audience of like that legacy of what you liked of the show, right? Like you like Carol because she really fit New York. You feel like you know her. Same thing with Dolores. You feel like you know her. You do know her. You watch her on Traders of New Jersey all these years. You put her in a new city, then you're like, oh, there's something there. It's different than just plucking brand new people and throwing them to the wolves. I think it's like maybe a new tactic that Bravo is using of like, let's give some IP of people that we know already and then build a show around that in a way. Right. Yeah. When does Rhode Island come out? April 2nd. Oh, and then the Valley comes out then too, right? Like April 1st or something. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be an exciting situation. OK, going back to Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. What happens when you have like the friend like Natalie goes? Oh, yes, we don't know her at all. Yeah, like Natalie goes is just there. And she goes to Italy and I don't know if like she never pops during the season and they can't like really cut around her. But then, you know, it's like she shows up one day and she's like, I had a happy ending by a man at a massage and I'm like, when they did that, it was like, we don't need girl. That's the first time I ever heard you talk. I felt like that was so. Of course. And it's like it's not even original like joke or story or anything. I know. And it's kind of gross. But you can't even be mad at her because it's not saying you are. But the audience, I feel like in terms of saying like, oh, you know, why? She like try to be provocative or why she just so boring. It's like that's just they're not giving her enough airtime or she didn't pop or she just cut out all her other interesting stuff or whatever. And like, but I'm sure like she maybe had a story like that. And they're like, tell that story because like all the women will die. But I also want to say that story. Like sometimes I wonder like, you know, some some guy that's producing it, maybe heard that and thought that was like, oh my God, a woman getting a happy ending. It's like there was a whole storyline and sex in the city about that in which, you know, I was written by men where Kim Kattrall like gets kicked out of the spa because she keeps going back for a happy ending. But also, does someone at home? Honestly, I don't want to think about like it. That's gross. You don't like that. I don't like it. You don't. I don't think it is that where Heather MacDonald draws the line on Housewives. I get why it's in a gay world. It's like a real treat. But for women, for a woman to think that you're like getting a massage and that guy just starts to like, dilly your bean. And you're like, I didn't really know how I'm divorced. Like there's just something about it that's like, I don't know. I mean, nobody even really made a big deal out of it. And I have it until now. I just thinking like that's the only thing we're going to remember this poor girl about getting a happy ending at her massage. I didn't even know what a woman's happy. Like I know guy. I mean, I'm gay. I live in West Hollywood. I think we all know what a happy ending is for any guy. There's a, of course, a dick. There's something you do with it. I didn't know with girls. Like I was like, Oh, like, do what? Like I didn't know that was a real thing. I went to a place. I go to a massage place. I mean, I assume it's he's massaging you and then he starts, you know, getting to a place where you then orgasm, whatever that is. I figure with, you know, finger you or whatever. And, you know, and then I almost got insulted because I put my friend onto a place. We're not going to out the name, but it's a place close by that I go to for. They've given me legit massages. I've been like, Oh my gosh, I feel like a new person. My friend has gone to about four different people, gets a happy ending every time he goes. And I'm like, do I take this personally? Like, why are they not doing this to me? Like, why are you getting every person on the roster? I think there is. I thought there was like an unwritten rule hint where it's like, you kind of say, I thought it was like, do you want that? And then you either like for men at like places that do both just legit massage. I one time was somewhere in Encino and I had like an hour to kill. And I'm in like a square thing and I see like the little, you know, cat waving, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, place, whatever. And I'm like, I like love a massage. I don't care if it's like a random spot, whatever. So I go in and it's like all covered up and everything. And this lady comes out and she's like, hello. And I'm like, oh, hi. I was wanting to get a massage and they're like, no. And so then I realized, oh my God, this is a legit sex shop. Like it was like, they're not going to take me. They're all the only one men give the happy ending, pay more than the $42 for the massage. And then I was like, oh, because I, yeah, like, like, because when I go into those strip mall places, they're totally legit. Get a massage and there might be somebody in a caught leg next week getting a massage, but I'm like, whatever. Yeah, okay. The price is Burke Williams. But yeah, I just thought that was just such a weird thing that I feel kind of bad because like this is what she's going to be remembered. Yeah. And I doesn't, and then someone made a video about like, oh, so I'm trying on the after show and she's sitting there. They're like, why is she on the after show? She must pop later then. This is what I'm thinking. I'm, if you want to hear my hot take, my hot take is that I'm thinking she doesn't pop that what happens sometimes on these shows is that somebody can come in as a full time cast member. Yeah. And it just, the cards don't pan out for you. Like I had somebody on a franchise who started off full time. They could not give the story that they promised and they were just became a friend of, they were demoted. When you say that without getting yourself in trouble, give the story you promised. What's an example, hypothetically, like let's do a hypothetical so you're not revealing anything. Yeah, yeah. I tell you something in our interviews, everyone's like, holy shit, she's great. Have her on. Yeah. Like what would be a story that then I don't deliver? My husband is going to be on camera. We have this great relationship and it's thriving. You know, I'm working on rebuilding my relationship with my sibling and my parents. Parents don't want to be on camera. Siblings don't want to be on camera. Husband doesn't want to be on camera. You're like, I mean, it's like, what are we showing you? Knitting and, you know, like what are we going to do at this point? You know, it's like, well, I love Sutton, but the other day her scene was watching her TV with the three cats and a dog. And I almost felt like. I almost felt that as a viewer and as someone that knows TV, like they shared to show that they, they showed that part. They showed that to do it, just to kind of like fuck her a little bit, to kind of be like, well, there's nothing going on. If, if, if you are not back next season, it's because you maybe couldn't deliver those things, which is unfortunate. Cause sometimes you do, like I said, get to a certain age. And if you're not dating anyone and you're not, and your kids don't live with you and they're not particularly like wanting to be on the show or FaceTime you every day and tell you about their exciting thing or how do you be stressed about them? Yeah. It's like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? That's why I think with Natalie, it's either something was promised or things were just so boring that they brought her in there with the assumption of like, maybe she'll make it pop and give a little more. And it's either that she got overshadowed or they brought her in and she didn't pop the way that they thought she was going to pop. But that's disappointing. Cause I think this season they needed someone like that to really make it happen. So, so hypothetically. Do you keep Amanda? If I was producing this show. Yes. Oh yeah. I'm keeping her. Absolutely. Like I just like, I like somebody that can come on a show and just make bitches mad just for being them. Like that to me is just hysterical. Granted, if they're really toxic behind the scenes or whatever, like let that come to light. But I don't think she is. I think that she's just, but she's getting a reaction and that's important. Oh my gosh. I think it's so amazing. I just love when someone just comes in and it just lights people up and they just get mad and right now it just feels like her against everybody. Yeah. Kyle is just like probably holding on cause Kyle has been through the ropes at this, like been through the ringer of knowing this girl is going to get next season off if I don't jump in and help her out. Right. So she's her only real friend at this point. Which I kind of like too. I kind of like her being like, well, we are supposed to give opinions about each other and then you're mad that she's giving an opinion about you. Like what else are we doing on the fucking show? Exactly. Then like, so I kind of like that there's been more like moments like that. Like our job is to talk about our lives and talk about each other. The other thing is sadly, Rachel's oh was robbed. I know. Now, you know, I talked about this on the show. Yeah. So she was robbed. Kathy Hilton, while her husband was there, was robbed. Kyle has been robbed. DeRita has been robbed. Garcelle has had two SWAT situations where someone calls a SWAT team to her house. What do you, has that ever been an issue in that you're showing these people's homes? I mean, on the other flip side of it, everyone can find your address. Yeah. You know, so unless you live in high security gated community, people could drive up to your house. They could take a photo of the outside of your house, even if you're doing a false house on the outside like they did the Kardashians for so many years. I mean, Rihanna's house too. It just got. That was horrific. Scary. So, I mean, is that ever a discussion or like, and then you're supposed to show your goods and show that you're wealthy. I know. You get. Well, that's the problem is that they want you to show this, but then there's a really bad side of it when you're putting it out there that people are going to say, well, we know they're at BravoCon during this weekend. So let's go and rob. Like, I mean, that's really. I mean, there's something. Sure. Even if you don't post in real time, being like, I'm at this restaurant and you actually take your photos and you do it. Oh, we had, you know, now I'm back here was my great weekend at Watch What Happens Live. You're at Watch What Happens Live. Yeah. You might not be filling right now, but you filled in two hours ago, which means you're not in LA. I've seen that in real time. There was one time we were in Vegas and I saw a housewife there and I was like, wait, is that her? And I'm like, oh yeah, that is her. But I'm watching her story and her story is that she's posting at her house. She's there, but I'm like, oh no, she's here in Vegas. Smart. And then I saw a couple of days later is when she posted that she was in Vegas and I'm like, oh, that's probably because she was back home at that point. That is very smart. But sometimes you just, you're too big or you're on a show, you're on a live show, you're on a New York show and you really can. I mean, I guess I, I was saying like, you know, yeah, I think that's another thing people need to consider when they go on a real housewife show. Then on the case of Potomac, they jumped on the being robbed bandwagon, but they were never robbed. You're like, you're like, can't make this shit up, right? I mean, they were never robbed. Um, and then they said we were robbed and then they added things to, um, Well, to your point about the house exterior shots, there were, there were moments specifically when I worked on interpump rules, when a lot of the cast members were starting to make money and they were buying all their houses in, in the valley. Um, and they were, a lot of them were like, we don't want exterior shots of our house because those houses aren't in a gated community. They're just like right off the street. I mean, granted, some of those houses too are off the street too. I mean, they might have big gates and Beverly Hills, but I mean, Sutton lives on a main road, you know, so it's like, we see it. Um, but yeah, that has been a point of people like, I don't know if I want my full exterior of my house out there, but that's a big thing. Like in casting, like you're looking, you're like, what does your house look like? Right? Like that's a big thing. They want to know if you are walking the walk, you're talking the talk. Like, so I feel like that is the housewife's brand of like seeing, like you're saying, what do you live like? What is your lifestyle? But, um, I feel like the future, that could be a big thing for people not wanting to put that out there now. That's what was so funny about this pretty woman on Ladies of London that she lives in like a fucking hobbit house. Oh my. Oh, the one with the bird? Yeah. She lives with a bird. It's like a tiny, the most tiny, I don't even know how the caravan fit in there. The paint's peeling on the roof. There's like bird shit everywhere. But then I'm like super intrigued with her life story. Oh yeah. Cause she's like, Oh, I had all this money and then I got nothing. And now I'm like, I live with a bird and like, I was like, there's something there. Yeah. As long as it's honest, I don't care. That's how I feel too. That's why it's hard. Like there have been women. I'd rather see someone live poorly, but have an interesting story than someone to act and buy all the fake shit and act like they're rich. I'm so happy you're saying that because when there have been projects that I've worked on where, um, if their house doesn't look the part, they, they're not in the mix. Like that's a deal breaker. Like if your house doesn't look a certain way, like it's like, well, what makes this real housewives? Why would you come on here? And I agree. I'd rather see somebody live in maybe a more modest home, but then in a bigger picture is like, does that take away the image of housewives? Because what do you think of housewives? It's women who live a particular life, you know, an affluent life and expensive life. So it's like, well, if she's living in the house that, you know, the kid that I graduated high school with just bought, you know, it's like, does that really mean anything? But I agree with that. I think it's like, as long as you're like in interesting and you're, you know, like as long as you're doing the job, you're clever, you're funny, you have an interesting point of view, you're fun to watch on TV because whether you're attractive or both, or you know how to put it out together or, and you actually have a real connection to the, these other women. I mean, like Gina, people always criticize Gina on OC. She's not rich. Yeah. Her casita. So what? Like, you know what I mean? She's done, she's funny in the confessional. She's interesting. Like. Oh, she's to me, I feel like she's become somebody like full, like she knows her job now. Like she's great. Like I think she's actually. Oh, and I think what people forget is that it's just all subjective. It's entertainment. Yeah. You were not hiring people to work at the factory where you're like, well, you're supposed to know how to work a 25 inch screw or something. Like there's no criteria. Like, and so it's just like, no rules apply in entertainment. Just be fucking entertaining. Well, I think their thing of what they do is that's the friend of role. We can get a Brandy Glanville. Brandy did not live like the rest of the Beverly Hills ladies. And what did they do? They're like, you're going to be a friend of Ray because. You mean afterwards? Cause she became a regular. Well, yeah, she did, but that's because she proved herself as a friend. Her personality, like you're saying is like, she's quick, savvy, witty, but she did not live in a very aspirational life in terms of financials. You know, and I think that's what they do because then their point would be, well, if we just let anybody with a regular house or regular lifestyle, then that's just now every, it's a free for all. Anybody can join the show. But I kind of feel like that is Salt Lake. Yeah. Like, I mean, like, you know, Meredith comes off wealthy and Lisa says she's wealthy, but like Whitney lives in like a cute normal house and always has. Yeah. I mean, Monica, I loved when she came on for the sake of her house was like a regular, regular house. Like it was just cute and nice, but she definitely, and she was honest about it. That's what I liked about it. Like, hey, this is not the type of lifestyle I live, you know? Right. Well, this has been so much fun. I thoroughly have enjoyed you being on the show. Thanks for having me. And we can talk about housewives all the time. So you'll have to come back. Please let me come back and tell everybody where they can follow you because you give a good TikTok and insight and funny. I yeah, follow me. Just my name on TikTok, Instagram, Paul Royston. And I have a podcast with my mom where we talk about these Hollywood stories, all the good stuff growing up and surviving in Hollywood. And that is at, hold on, I'm calling my mom. So we have a podcast that we record every week and drop every Monday. So yeah, that's a great day. And I love it. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for coming. You're so good for having me. Thank you. I adore you. Thank you. And everybody go to heathermcdalland.net for everything. Take it to my shows. I'll be in Salt Lake City, March 20th and 21st. And to join me, thank you. Bye.