Don't Worry Darling with Payton McCarty-Simas

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Dad! Jean Nat, how's my... Your restaurant going. Business is good? Business is great. Retirement's even better, my love. You should start thinking about your future too. Already have. I did what you said and spoke to Aviva. From insurance to wealth and retirement, we can help solve life's financial puzzles. Oh, the tiramisu. Are you still making it with Marsala? Mmm, amaretto. So you don't always listen to your papa, huh? Dad! Making a click. It takes Aviva. Welcome to the neighborhood, a new community where everyone keeps an eye out for each other. Obviously, my instant coffee's not good enough for you. I just want to make friends. In this neighborhood, it's Lawnmowers at Dawn, a six real households accolade out for a quarter of a million pounds in his street-sized family feud. 250 grand, we are willing to do whatever it takes. Scale scale to destined for greatness. Join me, Graham Norton, as I bring the drama to your doorstep in a new show like no other. The Neighborhood, stream now on IGVX. Bring on the ding-dong. On the beck-dell cast, the questions ask if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the beck-dell cast. Welcome to the podcast that feels like a podcast where we discuss movies that feel like movies. Because they are movies and sometimes it's not that complicated. No. My name is Caitlin Durante. My name is Jamie Loftus, and we are the podcasters who feel like podcasters because we are podcasters. Yes. This is the beck-dell cast, podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies or just movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the beck-dell test as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, what the hell is that? I don't remember because I'm being trapped by an incel. Oh no. Well, it's a media metric created by our best friend, Alison Bechdel. First appearing in her comic, Dyches to Watch Out for, in the 80s. It has since become a media metric that is used to determine, do women interact in a movie? And if so, do they talk to each other about something other than a man? Our version is, do two characters of a marginalized gender, have names, speak to each other, and is the conversation about something other than a man. Ideally, it is narratively meaningful dialogue and not just throw away nonsense. This movie doesn't really have a problem with the beck-dell test. It just has a problem with a lot of other stuff. I'm very excited to talk about this movie. Yes, this was a movie that when it came out, it's Don't Worry Darling. We're not trying to withhold this information. Yeah, there's no big twist at the end. No big twist that the director, upon revisiting the press cycle, the director spoilers the movie in almost every interview, which is wild. She's like, yeah, so I based Chris Pine's character on Jordan Peterson. Like, you really should not have said that. That's like, that ruins it. Anyways, I don't even remember what I was saying, because this movie is so silly. Oh, this is a movie that we got a ton of requests for when it came out, and we've been trying to, for the most part, not cover movies right when they come out, because it's hard to have any sort of objectivity, especially when a movie was as discussed to death as this one was. Oh, yes. But it feels like it's been enough time, and also we have an incredible guest. So let's get them in here. They are an author, programmer, and film critic, and their new book, That Very Witch, Fear Feminism, and the American Witch film, is something that you should get and read. I'm halfway through it. It's terrific. It's Peyton McCarty-Semus. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about this real go-to-the-theater movie. Oh my gosh. We come to this place for movies that feel like movies. We come to this place for discourse. So first of all, tell us about your book. Yes, please. Absolutely. So basically, this book traces the evolution of the witch in horror films as a vector for the state of feminism at any given point in time in history, in America specifically. So as I go through, basically what I do is I give you a little bit of a history on the politics of the moment, a little bit of the history of the feminism in the moment, the history of the cinema of the period, and then I tie all of that together through the witch films of that particular era. And what I figured out was that, well, witches have always been a symbol of feminism, but at peak feminist activism in America at these moments like the 60s and the 2010s, witches in the horror film are depicted as super powerful, which is intuitive in a certain sense, but how they're depicted as powerful changes and can tell you a lot about what's going on. And in moments of backlash, something else very interesting occurs. So I researched this book for a little over half a decade, and it was basically my therapy for where we are. When the election happened, I didn't really have to change anything. I emailed my editor and was like, I'm gonna add two sentences and then we're ready to go. So it definitely helped me figure out how we got here, but it's also, I hope it's a fun time, you know? So, yeah. Can confirm it absolutely rocks. Thank you for writing it. And it looks also just like, I don't know, it's like that must have been such a fun book to research. Oh my God, it was such a blast. Cause you get to, you know, it's like the arc of American history, right? So I got to spend a lot of time like rocking out in the 60s and learning about acid and the CIA. And then, you know, you go to the 80s and you're thinking about like punk subcultures and yuppies and the 90s. You've got Riot Girl. It was, yeah, it was a complete blast. That rocks. Amazing. Thanks. We come to this place to discuss the movie, Don't Worry Darling. So follow up question, different question. What is your history with this movie? I know it's pretty recent, but. No, yeah. When we were talking about what films to discuss today, I saw that was an option and I was so excited because this movie made me so just flamingly livid when it came out. Like I was, I was all there. I was all in, right? Like I love, I just wrote a piece, this is gonna, I promise this will make sense, but I just wrote a piece for Remorg this year called Bois. It's all connected about a fake genre that I made up of like particularly conspiratorial kind of new agey movies, typically about men, right? And like whenever I see a woman making like a 70s inspired parallax view type movie, I'm there. I'm like, let us do Grobois, you know? But then watching it, it's so failed in its politics. It's so boggles the mind and it has so many script problems. Like it's failed top to bottom. So I was so pissed and I was excited to just take it down. But re-watching it from 2025, it really felt like more in sorrow than an anger. Like there's so much here that speaks to the moment that had the potential to be really salient. And I think even some of the angles that frustrated me the first time, I actually found like some potential poignancy in, particularly in the wake of the Charlie Kirk thing. So I think there's so much to unpack here. I'm still pissed, I am still pissed, but it's like pissed because I'm disappointed, you know? I'm angry and disappointed. Fair, yes. No, it is so funny for a movie that is like ultimately, I also am like, let women make B movies. Like, but I feel like it was hard to not have a very particular relationship with this movie if you were remotely plugged into pop culture at the time, you could not escape it. And it was interesting, even just three years later, because of the rate that society is deteriorating, I guess, that you're like, the criticisms I had three years ago are some remain consistent, but there's also, yeah, like you're saying Peyton things, I feel a little gentler on now. And then things that I'm even madder about then when I saw it the first time. It's interesting. Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie? I saw it, I saw it in theaters and I was like, well, I did not like that at all. But I mean, I do think like, I don't know, I think that the more recent example of this that is far darker is this is a movie who I think for most people who are like keeping eyes on it at the time, like has a more famous press cycle than a plot. The press cycle for this movie was absolutely inescapable in a way that it seems like only helped the movie's box office a little bit. I think the darker version of that was last year, two years ago with the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni of it all, it ends with us. And then you have press cycles like Wicked where nothing went wrong, but you're like, what the fuck happened? And that's just fun. So I was like, I think, I was gonna see this movie either way because I enjoyed Booksmart, it was a fun little movie. It was nice to have a whatever rising comedy director who was a woman, which is something that still is pretty rare. And yeah, this movie really just like does not come together in ways that are infuriating sometimes and like funny. It's just like this movie is like very naive in a lot of ways. Like if someone explained white feminism to an alien, which could have been what happened, who knows? Yeah, basically my definitive statement here is that the second, like there's one of many profiles of Olivia Wilde around the time this movie came out was her saying explicitly, the inspiration for this movie is the feminine mystique, which makes so much sense because the feminine mystique is a valuable famous text that only concerns itself with the white middle class, which is very much what this movie is. And it feels kind of like a semi, like not really a coherent criticism that also feels both early and late. It's weird. This movie's a weird one. That's what my, so I have to say. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I didn't see it in theaters. I saw it maybe like six months after it had come and gone from its theatrical release. And by that point, I had heard all of the reviews that were not favorable of this movie and all the people just being like, that sucked so bad. That was trash and blah, blah, blah. So I went in thinking it was gonna be like incoherent drivel, which I don't think that's the case. Obviously I think that it has a lot of problems and it falls short in the commentary it's trying to make. But I was expecting some like really incompetent filmmaking and I was like, oh, it's basically the plot of the Stepford wives, but it's not horrendous. But I also wasn't watching it specifically through a Bechdelkast lens that first time. And now re-watching it, which I was like, oh God, do I have to for this episode? I noticed many, many more of the problems. And I'm excited to discuss. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for the recap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Southwest. Famous for our countryside. So if you want to create in green skills, working with nature, animals, or clean energy, study where it all happens. Cannington College. From our borough culture to animal management. 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And I was like, re remembering the Harry Styles memes of his acting, which isn't as bad as people said, but it's not good. Okay, that too. Everyone was like, he gives the worst performance ever. And I was just like, it was fine. It was fine. He gives a performance. He's trying his best. It feels like he's I know. I was like, am I coddling him? Yes. Which like, you know, girl boss slay, you can anyone can put their younger attractive bow in the movie, you know, like the ingenue of it all was really good. I was it was kind of funny where I was like, okay, for Olivia Wilde to some extent, she's like girl bossing OSHA violations. She's like women should violate HR contracts too. And you're like, yeah, yeah, exactly. I also forgot about, do you guys remember the spit thing? I just was like, oh yeah. Having all of these like things that I thought I would never have to think about again. And here we are talking about spit gate in the year 2025. Here we are. I'm so convinced that like that was a glitch in the matrix. Like we're all living in don't worry, darling, because that was the media simulacrum that broke. And like that's just every day in this universe now. Like you can just AI that actually having happened if you want to. But like, oh man. There's so many funny parts. Harry Styles looking ugly is hilarious. Like it's just it's it's great. It's great. That wig. It's camp. This movie is I feel like we will we just covered a movie neither of us had seen before yesterday, The Devil's Advocate, which I feel like has a lot of similarities plot wise and also how campy it is because it's so deeply sincere and what it's trying to do. This movie is really trying to define feminist thriller and and it doesn't and that's kind of why I feel a little like, oh, I like I don't hate it. This could have been a cult classic if it were any better or worse. Like I kept thinking about Zardos. You know what I mean? Like if it weren't mostly medium close ups and if the MacGuffins were either a little bit weirder or a little bit better explained, we could all like cherish. Don't worry, darling. Yeah, like really go for it. Like we need girl Edward. Come on. Yes. Yes. OK, here's the story. It is the 1950s. Or is it? We think it is at first. And we meet a young married couple, Alice and Jack, played by Florence Pugh and Harry Styles, as well as their friends and neighbors who are other married couples, Bunny and Dean. That's Olivia Wilde and Nick Crowell. And then there's Peter and Peg, played by comedian pals of ours. Ossif Ali and Kate Perland. And they all live in a cul-de-sac. I was calling them the cul-de-sac crew to borrow a Cougar Town reference. Really? Wow. I never watched Cougar Town. Oh, yeah. I watched it, I would say, against my will. But kind of like it's almost like I was put in a simulation against my will to watch Cougar Town. So true. Anyway, so they live in what appears to be a typical American suburb at first. But then we realize it's this small, isolated community called Victory in the middle of a desert. And all of the husbands work for something called the Victory Project, which is some company or entity doing vague, classified work. Which not for nothing do we ever figure out what they're doing. We they call it the development of progressive materials but it's like but like what are they? Well, that's one of the biggest problems with the movie is that it's just a red herring. Like it literally is just a red herring. They go do normal jobs in real worlds. Right. And they set it up like what's the Victory Project? And I guess theoretically the Victory Project is is the spoiler of the movie, like in the real world. But but ultimately it's so dissatisfying because they don't do anything with that. And it also felt like the development of progressive materials was supposed to be like a real deep commentary like the women are the progressive materials. But like you're like, yeah, there's so like I kept writing down like Florence goes to touch the plot stone so that the plot can continue. Yeah, that was under one of the many kind of that was like one of my least. There are some red herrings that are so funny to me. Like the Gemma Chan fake out. I'm like, what do you mean? Oh, I have a whole scale about that. I get there. But it doesn't make any sense. Sorry, we'll get there. I like seized. I've been wanting to talk about that since the movie came out. I'm ready. It's it's it's her turn now. Sure. To me, it felt like the work they were doing was like nuclear weapons manufacturing coded. I think that's like what we're supposed to think. But again, it's just a red herring. Who knows? Yeah. So that's what the men do. The women, meanwhile, live very typical 1950s white American housewife lives. We see Alice cooking and cleaning with a smile and a dress and her hair done perfectly. And she and Jack are also very horny for each other. And they're constantly having sex. Yeah. But soon Alice starts noticing some weird things. Iconically, the eggs aren't eggs. So many of the like thriller imagery is just so like it cracks me up because it's so vague, like it's just pulling on like things you're supposed to be. But don't you get it? Her life and the eggs are hollow. But then she cooks the eggs. She's like, the eggs aren't eggs. Minutes later, they were in fact, they're different eggs, I guess. Oh, man. I love I love when the eggs aren't eggs. I watched I kept rewinding it and making Grant watch it with me. It's like one day we're going to wake up and the eggs aren't going to be eggs anymore. And what are you going to do? Wow, makes you think the sound design on the egg cracking scene was also I'm like, you did too much here. Whoever did that. But anyway, how else are you going to know that the eggs are next? What they're next are the eggs are next. And Florence is acting the hell out of that scene. Oh, Florence is trying so hard. And all of the dialogue is so bad. And she's holding this thing together with her little oven mitts, I swear. She really is. I think like her performance is genuinely good. Like she's selling me on this. Like I'm I'm also confused, Florence. What is going on here? I wish we knew. So yeah, we get the we get some weird things such as the eggs aren't eggs. She's seeing some quick flashes of things that she doesn't know what they are. She's constantly humming a song that's stuck in her head, but she doesn't know what the song is. And something is going on with her neighbor, Margaret, played by Kiki Lane. Alice sees her behaving weirdly. Then everyone goes to a party hosted by Frank, played by Chris Pine and his wife, Shelley, played by Gemma Chan. And Frank is the founder of the Victory Project. And he's giving a speech about how awesome it is. But Alice's neighbor, Margaret, interrupts to be like, why are we here? What is going on? And she's pulled out of the party and Frank brushes it off. And then some of the women gossip about Margaret. And we learn that they used to be friends with her until she, quote, unquote, lost her mind and took her young son out into the desert, where he apparently disappeared. Then one day, Alice is feeling restless. She has less pep in her step as she's doing her household chores. So she goes out and takes a ride on the local trolley. And she witnesses a plane crash in the distance by the Victory Project headquarters. Would you like to know what that means? Well, you're never going to find out. We don't know. Well, you're never going to get it. But the driver won't go out there to the crash site to help because there's this whole thing in Victory where everyone has to stay in town. Leaving isn't safe. Right. Because the simulation, there's a simulation. There's also like another one of the thriller things we were like, is there's occasionally like small earthquakes that are very normal for the community. Yeah, don't really know what that was. I think that was part of the like, are they testing nuclear weapons or whatever the Victory Project is? But it's her brain. Like, right, it's a simulation. Right. I mean, if we go back to like screenwriting 101, like we're sitting down with notebooks and it's a college class, right? Like one of the main questions that you have to ask in a script is why today? Like, what is the inciting event? Why is this happening to her today? And like, why is she unhappy today? There is simply no reason. There's no reason this started happening. And that's one of the major problems with the movie is that there's no like real escalation and there's no motivation for her. She's just suddenly confused and discontented. And, you know, like the feminine, well, I have a whole like there's so many problems. But like, she's not actually, because you were saying, Caitlin earlier, like they live normal 50s housewife lives, but they don't. Like they live in a racially integrated, very happy, very sexually fulfilling community, which is nonsense. And she loves it. And that's part of the politics thing that I'm sure will return to. But like she has no problem with her life. And thus the fact that she suddenly does doesn't make any sense. Like she's realizing that she's in the Stafford wives, but it's not because she doesn't actually enjoy drinking martinis and playing tennis, like which which you need to have that, right? Like in the Stafford wives, the main character is a photographer. And she's like, you're not letting me do my art or my work. And I hate that. But here she's like, I love getting head on my kitchen table. And also I think something's wrong. One of the many things with this where I was like, why? Because we whatever, if you haven't watched Don't Worry, Darling, then do or don't. Whatever. It's when people are listeners don't complain about spoilers. But when people I was like, you clicked on it. When it was not what anyways, when it's later revealed that Florence Pugh's character is a doctor, you're like, why could that not become plot relevant? Right. Why could there not be? Because theoretically with Margaret, there is a medical emergency. Why isn't there a part in the back of her head that is like, I know what to do. But the past version of herself has absolutely nothing in common with like there's no like part of herself rattling in the back of her head, which I feel like could have at least given you a why, right? Of like, right. Oh, I know how to help like why. And I don't know. There's just so many things this movie could have done that it doesn't, for sure. Where? So there's so she's on the trolley. She sees the plane crash and she ventures out into the desert on foot and ends up at HQ of the Victory Project and has some weird dream vision thing at the Plot Stone at the Plot Building. And the next thing she knows, she wakes up at home and she asks Jack how she got there. And he's like, I don't know anything about that or about this supposed plane crash, you silly goose. Yeah. And then he's he does what Keanu Reeves also does in The Devil's Advocate, where well, it's not I think it's like the beat after this. But he's like, I'm going to be extra nice to you. So you don't notice something terrible is happening or let me get you pregnant. I'm assuming that's what you want, even though she said she doesn't. Right. Anyways, men always be trying to distract women with a pregnancy. Yeah. If I should like, please have a kid that I will see occasionally. Neglect. Yeah. OK, so then more weird stuff happens. For example, the walls of her house seem like they are closing in on her for a brief moment. Something compels Alice to put saran wrap around her head and nearly suffocate herself. I kind of dug that image as like a visual metaphor. I think in a better movie, I would have been like that that cooks. But right here, it just kind of feels like it's coming out of nowhere. The aesthetic. I mean, this movie looks good. It looks good. Production design is solid. Yeah. OK, so those weird things are happening. There are a couple more things with Margaret, including Alice seeing Margaret take her own life and Alice tries to run and help her. But two men in red jumpsuits come out of nowhere and drag Alice away, which every single time reminds me of Monsters Inc. I can't see men in hazmat suits and not be like, which obviously Monsters Inc didn't invent that, but to me it did. And I'm not interested in further context. I just they look just like the orderlies in her hospital, which made me think about that one episode of The Twilight Zone with the woman who thinks that she's already dead and she like ends up in the morgue in her dreams. But again, because she doesn't seem to have any relation to her normal life self, that image I don't think read well. And my least favorite, my my biggest plot hole on the first viewing, which is this like talented doctor disappeared question mark and no one is looking for her. Does she have a family that wonders where she is? She's probably 500 hours a week and people are like, well, I don't know. Like, what do you mean? Yeah, our top surgeon is gone, but they're the schedule. Like the shifts are fine. Someone else will take it. Yeah. Right. Did Jack have to like fake her death so that no one would question where she is? There's a lot of world building that goes unexplored. But like, I don't know. At this point, I'm like, I'm laughing. Yeah, sure. Sure. Why not? Why not? It's feminism for this movie to suck. Yes. So Alice witnesses this traumatic event with Margaret and she starts asking Jack a bunch of questions about his job and what the Victory Project is actually doing. And he gets furious and also does some very textbook gas lighting. And then the town physician, Dr. Collins, played by Timothy Simmons. Jonah from Veep. He comes by to examine Alice and she's like, hey, Doc, what the fuck is going on? What happened with Margaret? But Dr. Collins insists that Margaret is alive and she just needs some psychiatric help. So she and her husband left Victory. But Alice gets a sneak peek inside the doctor's briefcase and sees a file on Margaret, which is like mostly blacked out. That made me cackle. Like when she opens it and it's literally all redacted, like, why are you carrying that? That's not helping you as a doctor. Right. And then she burns it for some reason. Like, wouldn't that be evidence that something is going on, that they're hiding something and trying to cover things up? Why wouldn't she like hang on to that? Don't worry, darling. You don't know. Yeah, exactly. If you have questions about this movie, just don't you worry, darling. Just remember what the title is. Yes. Just the movie. And the movie feels like a movie. Harry was trying to get ahead of these criticisms. It feels like a movie, but is it? But is it? Then there's a big Victory Project event where Frank gives Jack a promotion, but Alice still feels very distraught about everything that's been going on. And she tries to confide in Bunny, the Olivia Wilde character, who turns on her and acts as though Alice has lost her mind. The next night, there's a dinner party at Alice and Jack's house to celebrate his promotion. And Frank shows up and approaches Alice privately to be like, I know that you're on to me and I don't even care. Keep trying and good luck with that. Another dynamic that has not paid off on in any way. Nope. On this rewatch, I actually really notice that in terms of the beat for beat of this movie, there's supposed to be sexual tension between Alice and Mr. Chris Pine, Jordan Peterson. And there simply isn't. Like there's that earlier scene where she and Harry Styles are having sex and he walks in and watches. And then in all of the rest of the scenes, I think it's supposed to be like not only is he the Moriarty to her homes with this totally out of pocket villain monologue, but also they're supposed to be having chemistry and Chris Pine, theoretically good casting choice, absolutely failed. He's so flat. It's just not working. I didn't notice that at all. I didn't realize that that was. Dude, I think when you look through it, because then at dinner, he basically implies that he and Alice have been having sex this whole time. And Harry Styles is like, guess we won't address that one. But I think that would have helped the story a lot. Because if the metaphor is that this way of life is seductive for women, which is what I think is actually most salient to the present, like let's talk about Tradwives and the appeal. Let's let's unpack that. Right. But if that's the idea, then the erotic tension between those two is essential. Because for me, my biggest issue with this movie is that it's having its cake and eating it too. Where this is a movie where Olivia Wilde was both like, we're supposed to be exploring what it's like for women who are living in a system that actually works really well for them without actually unpacking how that system works. Like all of the paternalism is really benevolent and all of these women are getting so much head. Like none of these women, like she said on a podcast when she was like, no man comes in this movie and I'm like, OK, you're right. Yeah, like that that is how that works. Like 1950s integrated non-racist America where the women are having orgasms. Like the height report was not released until the late 60s. Like the idea that women had orgasms, generally speaking, like sodomy laws were still a thing. Like this was not like, like, you know, it wasn't socially acceptable for women to come like in our lifetimes. Like it has it. Like it's just, I don't know. I agree with you. Like she I appreciate what she's trying to do. It's kind of, I mean, in a different way, because obviously Olivia Wilde, Shonda Rhimes, different people. But it reminds me of a lot of the criticism that you often see around Bridgerton, where it's like very nostalgic and like weirdly celebrating a very regressive time in the visuals and like all this stuff. And like quote unquote, corrects the past to make it more comfortable when it's like, well, but theoretically less so in Bridgerton, which is like really just turning your brain way down, which is fine. I watch it. But like this movie is trying to be smart. And it's like, OK, then we'll talk about Kiki Lane's character. Margaret, too, because it's like, yes, I would be so curious what, because Kiki Lane was publicly like when this movie came out, because every actor, I think once Florence Pugh went nuclear and showed up at wherever with the Apparall Spritz, everyone was like, oh, we're allowed to talk shit about the movie. Great. And Kiki Lane was like, all our scenes were cut. We had a storyline. Where to go? I'd be very curious what that was. I'm not confident that it would have been markedly better, but like this movie's refusal to engage with race in any way is so glaring. Well, this her character is so racist. Like she's just the wise black foil to Florence Pugh. Like there's that scene in the dance studio where it's literally Kiki Lane looking sad and knowledgeable and Florence Pugh staring at her in a way. It's like this basically like reductive, like the help levels of reductive for this character here. Right. And like her really wild body really. Like her dead body being like really harped upon in spite of the fact that we like we don't even have time to become endeared to this character. Like we don't know her at all. She is being used like you're saying this very racist plot device. I would be curious what those scenes were. I don't feel confident that they that it would improve what we're talking about very much, but it just like in a movie that is trying to say something about feminism, you cannot refuse to engage with race. That is like Ben at the absolute core. That homophobia and transphobia have been at the core of the problems with every feminist movement ever. Like you have to engage with it. It makes me feel nuts. That's literally the problem with the feminine mystique. Did no one tell her that? Wild. And we can get into this later too, but the Margaret character was originally supposed to be played by Dakota Johnson. So it was originally supposed to be a white woman and then they cast Kiki Lane instead. But like didn't do anything to adjust the story to accommodate that character now being a black woman. So like it's a it's a mess. But I don't know if I if either of you have seen I just saw after the hunt over the weekend. Oh, not yet. I didn't like it, whatever. But like it I feel like it has like kind of a similar issue where Iowa Debris is playing a college student who is allegedly that's the whole point of the movie assaulted by a white professor, but it does not engage with race in any way to the point where it's like distracting. This movie has a similar problem for sure. All right. Where are we in the story? Oh, we're in the middle of this like dinner party. Alice confronts Frank at the dinner table in front of everyone being like, you're lying to us. We don't even know what the victory project is. What even is this place? Where does our food come from? The eggs aren't eggs. Chris Pine, why aren't the eggs eggs? And he's like, no comment. And she's like, you disappear people who ask any questions. And he's just like, shush, you silly little girl. And everyone does not like Alice's behavior. So they all leave. And Alice, realizing that she's in danger, begs Jack for them to leave victory for good that night. And he agrees, or at least he seems to, because as they're about to drive off, the men in the red jumpsuits show up and abduct her. And it's clear that Jack is complicit in this. And Alice is taken to a medical facility, put in restraints and given electroshock therapy, which prompts a flashback of Jack and Alice. Although it's not the 1950s in victory, California. It's modern day. And she's a modern woman with a job even. She's a surgeon. Jack, on the other hand, is unemployed and resentful of her. And he spends his time listening to this like men's rights podcast hosted by Frank. And it's giving Jack some ideas. We then cut back to victory. Alice returns home from the medical facility. And she seems to be doing much better, AKA she is once again, blissfully ignorant of what's actually going on. And they go back into the routine of Jack going to work and Alice being a quote unquote perfect housewife. But then Jack puts on a record and plays the same song that Alice has been humming the whole movie. And that triggers another flashback slash memory where we learn that the victory project is actually a fucked up black market computer simulation where people are hooked up and put into this world that we've been seeing this like idyllic 1950s community. And Jack has put Alice into this simulation against her will. We cut back to the simulation. And again, this song is triggering all of these memories of Alice in the real world. And now she fully realizes what's going on. And she's like, what the fuck, Jack? You took my life away from me. You've trapped me here, along with all of these other women who are trapped. This is the scene where I think the very funny Harry Styles acting meme comes from where you can't like I can't it's it's not a visual medium, but where he's sort of like the whole time. He's like the vocal performances there, but his face is sort of doing like the angry emoji. It's cute. Well, it's funny because he and Florence Pugh can both make that same cartoon for any case and they're making it at each other in the scene. It's awesome. You're like, I don't like it. I don't think Harry Styles is that bad. I don't think so either. Yeah. No. And then Jack becomes violent. So she strikes him over the head and kills him, which means he dies in the real world, too. Which will cause her no problems in the future. No, none whatsoever. She'll be fine. Yeah, don't worry. The movie's about to just end abruptly. So it's all good. Right. But first, it's my turn now. Like. Right. Well, then Bunny shows up and reveals that she has known all along that this is a simulation and she actually chose this life because her children, who she lost in the real world, are with her in victory. But now Bunny wants to help Alice leave and to save herself. I don't know why this switch suddenly happened. For what reason? Yeah. But Bunny is helpful now. So Alice gets in Jack's car and drives toward the headquarters, which actually is the like the plot stone exit portal. Yeah, it's the plot stone. She has to touch the plot stone and literally when she touches the plot stone, the movie ends. You're like so abrupt. So she's driving out to this location. The men in the red jumpsuits are chasing her. Frank is freaking out because if Alice escapes back to the real world, theoretically, she would be able to expose the victory project. But he doesn't actually like explicitly express that as a concern. And that was just like my headcanon. But Frank's wife, Shelly, stabs him for reasons. It's her turn now. It's her turn. For which I'm fighting for her life in that scene, because it's like you can sort of see in her eyes somewhere. I don't know what I'm saying either. There. Right. I just can't believe that Erica Kirk did that to Charlie Kirk. That's what happened. It was just her. It just happened to be her turn now. But can we just talk? Can we please? Because does that mean does that imply she's going to take over simulation land? Does that mean that she wants a career? Does that mean we needed her to say something? Does that mean she finally found out that the victory project is what it is? And she's also. It feels like she's very much in on it. The whole vibe you get from her is that she knows like that. She's introduced visually as if she knows everything. Right. But we actually don't ever really learn about anything about it. I don't know. Which is agonizing because like the in terms of going back to Olivia Wilde's character and the fact that this is ostensibly about the reasons that women become tried wives or participate in conservative misogyny, right? Like each character should have some element or thing that teaches you something. That's how scripts work. That's what characters are for. And so Olivia Wilde's character. Theoretically is like the lodestar of the film because she knows and she chose this. And it's such a cowardly cop out to be like, oh, it's because of my tragic backstory and not because I like martinis and hanging out with my husband. You know what I mean? Like she's not actually fully leaning into it. And then if you don't tell us why Erica Kirk is like this either, then we get nothing. Which is why this movie is not good. Yes. Right. Yes. It's true. So Frank gets stabbed. Meanwhile, Alice is still trying to make her way to the exit. She's being chased by all of the men in the community, but she finally makes it to the exit portal and then off screen wakes up in the real world. And that's the end of the movie. So there's that little apple at at the end, though, where she's dancing on her own. It's flashes of her. She's fine. She's not sad. Oh my gosh, I apparently stopped watching the movie immediately after it like fades to black because I was like, I can't handle another second of this. There is that little don't worry. It's not anything that clarifies. No, it's just a don't worry darling moment of like she doesn't have PTSD. She can walk even though she's been bedridden and there are no legal consequences for the murder of her and so husband. She's good. She's good. Right. And also like this is a world in which Jordan Peterson just died under mysterious circumstances. Yeah, because we learned that if you die in the simulation, you die in the real world. So Frank, Chris Pines, dead in the real world. Well, let's ponder these questions and more after this break. At Tesco, we know that beans mains hines and you love to ask. Have you had yours? All of you. Love it. Hater. And because I'm worth it. When you need low prices on brands you love like 150 grams of Heinz beans, 12 pack of wheat, 250 grams of Marmite or 700 milliliters of L'Oreal LV of Color Protect shampoo. Look out the everyday low prices logo in store and online. Tesco, every little helps. Every day, low prices includes thousands of products across the majority of larger stores and online prices held until the 10th of May. Selected branded products only. There's only one place to be this bank holiday. Village Stars returns to Bistah Village from the 2nd to the 4th of May. Enjoy up to 70% off the village price on your favorite brands and discover the perfect day out. While stocks last, T-Sensei supply, see BistahVillage.com. Bistah Village, what will you find? And we're back. And we're back. Don't worry. Don't worry, darling. We're back. I'm honestly, I'm worrying, darling. I'm worrying. I'm stressed, darling. Darling, I don't feel good. If it's OK, let's start with, because we already sort of started talking about Kiki Lane's character. I think that's a good place to start because it also, like we've been hinting at is like such a central issue with the movie of like this movie. And I think, like, again, this gets to this movie, I feel like is pretty clearly written in conversation with the Me Too movement. It's also why I'm thinking about it with After the Hunt, even though After the Hunt, like, I'm like, why is it coming out now? It's been almost 10 years, whatever. But like, again, I think what we've talked about pretty thoroughly on this show at this point is the failures of that moment are sort of the failures of every feminist movement, which is that it is very myopically focused on how misogyny affects privileged cis white women, which it does. But like when it like, I don't know. Yeah, like Olivia Wilde says that she's made this movie about complicity. But that's not true. Like the movie has no criticism of Florence Pugh's character. Like we are, she is our final girl from moment one. We are not really, we are just fully on her side the whole time. I feel like a better movie would ask the questions you're saying, Peyton, of like, I don't know, it would be interesting to see a thriller movie interrogate, like, a lot of why these women are engaging with this world is because it's comfortable. And even when they're seeing other people be subjugated, they would rather ignore other people's subjugation than sacrifice their own comfort. Like, that's an interesting thing to bring up. But it was just very dissonant, like looking back at the press junket for this outside of all of the like personal drama, because it's like, it just feels like the team keeps saying that they made a movie that like they didn't. Yeah, I mean, I think part of the problem here in terms of the nuts and bolts, which I think we have to always start with with this movie for like why it's not working. It's like, why is my car broken? Like, why am I wearing darling? I think part of the problem I kept thinking about, did you guys actually watch it? I watched Suicide Squad when it came out way back when. Which one? The first one or the second one? Yeah. The first one? No. Yes. I've seen it. Okay. Suicide Squad is a nightmare mess for one reason above all others, and that's the editing of the movie. The first scene starts, the soundtrack starts, and every scene is cut like a trailer and the soundtrack never stops and you get no access to any characters and the pacing is brutal. And I think that Don't Worry Darling should have probably been two and a half hours long to get what they actually wanted from it and the soundtrack never stops. And so you never get any like actual interiority or subjectivity from Florence Pugh because 80% of the movie is a montage. So there's not even space to criticize her character because she doesn't have a character because she is a beautiful piece of window dressing, cleaning beautiful things and having a really good time except when she's not. So that's really hard to make a nuanced critique out of. And like, that's not to say you can't have a montage that's very effective and tells you a lot. That's actually what they're for. But when you do it like this, it just simply doesn't work. And there's also the element of like, you know, the elephant of misogyny in the room and the fact that they're too scared to actually show people being misogynistic. Like, yeah, right. Where there's that scene with Dita Vantiz. It's the one scene where they're like, we're gonna, we're gonna do some locker room talk. Like, we're gonna actually show women being objectified and not just as housewives who also get to have sex. And even then, it's like so clean and nice and stylistic and like objectifying of Dita Vantiz that you're still not. It's still too slick to let you be like, oh, the men are right, right. It's about boobs, like, right. So, so that's a big problem. Yeah, I agree. There's so much dissonance in Frank being the creator of the Victory Project. Him being like, Mr. Misogyny, he has created this whole simulation that's akin to like, make America great again ideals, like the good old days when men worked and women stayed home and cooked and cleaned. But it doesn't examine like, MAGA ideals, any like beyond that at all, as far as like, as far as racism, as far as homophobia and transphobia, anything like that. And so we just see this world in which like, the men are really nice to their wives. And there is like racial integration into this community that if this was the real like 1950s America, Black families would have been redlined out of a community like this. Right. I mean, it doesn't even have to be the 50s. Like Christian nationalists are trying to create that kind of community, right? Yeah. It still exists. Who knew? Yeah, it is interesting watching this movie when with the not benefit, but knowing that things continue to get worse. This movie did not in fact solve society like we'd hoped, which is the job of every single movie ever. And if it doesn't, especially if it's made by women, yes, then then they have to. I do feel kind of bad that Olivia Wild appears to be in director jail over this. But which I do think what actually talked about on the show, this is a very flawed movie, but happens to women way more than otherwise. Oh, yeah. Women cannot direct a B movie. It's literally not allowed. Except for Emerald Finnell for some reason. Who knows? But good for her. Because she makes bank every time she knows what the girlies want and they want period sex. She puts butt in seats. Yeah, this is like a very common criticism of this movie, but it feels worth mentioning just because it echoes everything we've been talking about, which is like the dissonance of what Olivia Wild and again, also the writer of the movie. I always forget she did not write this movie. Katie Silverman, who also wrote Booksmart and a Netflix movie called Set It Up. Did you know it was a spec script by Dick Van Dyke's kids first? Okay. What? Sorry, I have to take a detour about this. Yes. So Katie Silverman wrote the screenplay, but it was originally a spec script that I think was circulating on the blacklist, which was written by Carrie Van Dyke and Shane Van Dyke, who are brothers and who are grandsons of Dick Van Dyke and Shane Van Dyke wrote and directed Titanic 2. Stop. And so if that's any indication of the quality of the storytelling. Well, it's always, I mean, with that is very clarifying because you're like, of course, two guys came up with this story. It doesn't make any sense. I love that. I also learned through just going back and back, clicking all the blue links on Olivia Wild's Wikipedia page. She's like, I wouldn't, she has like famous parents, but it's like not direct nepo. Her parents are like famous journalists. Also, her name is Olivia Cockburn. She changed it for maybe reasons you could guess. But her parents are Andrew and Leslie Cockburn, who in the 90s, like wrote this very famous book about that basically that is deeply critical of Israel and like did a lot of original reporting about the military relationship between the US and Israel. Going back to the neck, Bob. So I was just like, well, that's interesting about Olivia Wilde's heritage. And her grandfather was like a famous socialist leader. And you're just sort of like, hmm. So it made me more sympathetic to her to be like, she's, I do think she's trying to get it. But she's maybe just been famous for too long and she's very white. Yeah, that makes me less sympathetic where she's like, like you had the tools. Yeah, you had the master's tools and the master's house at your disposal at all times. Yeah. But the quote that actually, I think sums up the whole problem with the movie was she was doing a Q&A. And she said that it was a really seductive lifestyle in the 50s. And quote, though I could kind of judge the lack of autonomy at the time, i.e. the 50s, it also seemed like a really fabulous life. I mean, martinis for breakfast, like why not? So she just like is saying shit. Yeah. And the thing I was going to bring up is that like in the press tour where she was kind of like shooting herself in the foot quite a bit. She was talking about how like men don't come in this movie, women come. But then if you watch the movie, you're like, well, there's no consent being given. So why are there these sort of like long languishing scenes on like, isn't it cool? Say Harry Styles go down on a woman and you're like, well, sure, in theory. I guess the song Watermelon Sugar is in fact about her. But the plot is that all of this is happening against the women's will. So like, and they don't interface with that at all. Like the movie refuses to engage with that. So yeah, it just was very bizarre seeing this as, you know, making it out to be this movie of sexual liberation when the plot does not allow that. Florence Pugh appeared to kind of like push back on this framing. Also, she just hates Olivia Wilde. So maybe she's being petty here, but I think it's a useful quote. She said in an interview, when it's reduced to your sex scenes or to watch the most famous man in the world go down on someone. That's not why we do it. It's not why I'm in this industry. Obviously, the nature of hiring the most famous pop star in the world, you're going to have conversations like that. But I'm not going to be discussing it because this is bigger and better than that. So again, it does feel like not pushing back against norms by harping on non consensual sex in your press tour. It just doesn't quite make sense. Like women coming short, but not in this movie. Well, it's because women don't come in this movie canonically. Yeah. If you come in the simulation, do you come in real life? Oh, it's true. If you die, yeah, do you do you? If you die. Mary's child's coming in his pants in their dirty little bed. In their literal incel den. It's also she's like, she's a surgeon. Why does their apartment suck? Anyways, that's what I noticed on this rewatch the most, actually. Like, no, yeah, I think that the thing that I found most compelling in the wake of the Charlie Kirk thing that made me find more use potential and failed use of from this movie was the whole like, because, you know, conservative like, Tradcats and conservative guys who follow Charlie Kirk, like one of the things that comes up all the time is a sense of economic decline and instability. It's like, you know, the all on a single income means that circulate in those spaces, right? It's the sense that the economy is getting worse. The world is stratifying and in order to fix that, we need to go back to a time and emulate a time when a man could take care of his family on a single income and provide for his family because that's what masculinity is. It's being a provider, right? And this movie, I actually thought, because the first time I saw it, I saw the stringy wig and I just cackled really hard and couldn't see past it or think about it at all. It's really hard. Where he's like, make me a sandwich like baby girl. Put the wig in the Smithsonian Institution. That was the biggest camp. Yeah, the Academy Museum needs to buy that right now. But However, I think the angle here that he felt that he couldn't provide for his wife and he felt insecure in his masculinity and literally bankrupts himself to provide this fantasy in the most perverse like serial killer way to ostensibly provide for his wife. Like speaks to something that's going around in the culture. You know what I mean? Like there's something kind of poignant in a perverse and tragic way about the fact that he moves from their nice apartment to a literal like den of an you know inequity to to do this. Yeah. Yeah, like rather than be comfortable with his wife making more money than him. Like that is it is wild to me how much we are still deal. I mean, it's not surprising, but it's just infuriating in the day-to-day sense. But just how like again, it's like there's interesting ideas presented in a very silly and weirdly In curious way for sure. I mean it reminds me of you know the conversation we had surrounding a recent episode in movie that we covered companion, which has similar themes and vibes as far as like it's a man who he feels as though his masculinity is being threatened either by like modern feminism or specifically his partner and then he like does something very drastic to try to like make himself feel better and both companion and don't worry darling call attention to and start to examine this misogyny and male fragility, which is important but both movies focus on the plight of beautiful thin cis white women and the like individual liberation of one of them. Alice saves herself, but the movie ends before we get any sense of whether or not she would go back and try to like liberate the other women. I mean, I think the post credits scene indicates absolutely not. Right, the one that I did not watch at all. No, no, no. Yeah, like the movie doesn't care at all about collective liberation. It just cares about the liberation of this one woman. Which is like another classic like misstep of feminism is like a hyper focus on individuality or like your specific group. Although Flo doesn't even care about her group. It's just a mess. I just had a thought and it's gone. Well, to go back to the Margaret character who's played by Kiki Lane, I wanted to pull from a piece in Refinery 29 entitled Don't Worry Darling is Peak White Feminism as Expected by writer Hania Angus says quote victory is a simulation created by Frank to keep women locked away in captivity and the severity of that idea is never fully explored. Frank's continuous chanting about regaining control of your life and wanting men to return to a time when everything seemed right is clearly tied to white supremacy and its relation to protecting white femininity. The incels wild is attempting to discredit are not just hurt men who need wives or women to have sex with. They are raging racists and bigots. And then the piece goes on to say having Margaret die off to kickstart Alice's journey feels disgusting in hindsight, especially when you realize Lane has been snubbed from most of the film's press run cut from a lot of the film itself and barely even mentioned amongst the drama circling the movie. The film cuts back and forth from shots of her dead body in some poor sense of building up suspense and grief, but it just feels like it's taunting its viewers with how little it respects its singular black character who is pivotal to the story yet had little to no screen time unquote because it's true we like Margaret is like part of the catalyst that gets things going for Alice, but But she like ends up being basically like a glorified prop as far as the movie is concerned. For sure. We know nothing about her most of the time we see her it's either like from another character's point of view like she's off in the distance or it's like the white women in the community gossiping about her It's just like a really bleak characterization of the only black woman in the movie who gets any sort of Dialogue which is like two lines maybe like next to nothing. Oh, yeah, it's something's not right and that's it yeah, but they're both doing that and like refusing to acknowledge that The the women in this story Are racist like right it totally skirts that criticism entirely like it's done It just it's like okay So the movie is racist because it is doing this racist thing and its characters are not even reacting Incline especially Margaret Yeah, it's just unbelievably frustrating. But knowing that it was supposed to be Dakota Johnson is really Instructive I think because it it just seems like they were gonna just cast white people And let that be part of the thing It's like it's very clear to me that this was written to be about all white people Right because it's the 50s I mean the fact that they didn't have the the fantasy the incel fantasy Of the fact that all of these women don't have maids Sure, even though they're existing in this very upper middle class context Feels like they just didn't want to touch it because that would have been hard and uncomfortable, right? But like these women like if we actually want to let's let's talk about the feminine mystique, right? Like the the fun lifestyle they're describing. I'm trying to find a quote. I wrote a piece about this at the time But the idea that like our lives are empty all we have time to do every day. Yes, here's a here's a quote from the feminine mystique My days are all busy and dull. I get up at eight. I make breakfast So I do the dishes have lunch do some more dishes and do some laundry and cleaning in the afternoon Then it's supper dishes the children have to be sent to bed. That's all there is to my day It's just like any other wife's day, right? But like they have time to do that and have parties and go swimming, you know, like they just spend time at the pool And it's totally it's racist, right? It's it's literally a racing people I like going off of your point paint in a room also sort of feels reminiscent of Um, oh my gosh, what was that Sophia Coppola movie? Um, the beguiled the beguiled where she is remaking a movie that does have a black character That was racist at the time and she's remaking this movie and she doesn't know what to do with a black character So she just removes them and you're just like that is like the worst possible that you could do is to just Refuse to engage and literally erase people. Yeah, which feels like a similar thing to do because she's not Whatever the writers Who I don't even know who I'm yelling at sometimes am I yelling at Olivia Wilde? Am I yelling at Katie Silverman? Am I yelling at the van dyke? Shane Van Dyke I have no idea if I'm yelling at Shane Director of Titanic 2 Maybe I'm yelling at Shane Van Dyke, but like the movie is not comfortable committing to Having characters like bunny be villains and having gem a chance character Be a villain because there's just these random girl boss solidarity moments added in in the end that I think like gelled with What a good feminist does but these people are not good feminists. So like what? It's it's so bizarre. Uh, also feels worth mentioning even though this is more behind the scenes drama I also totally forgot about this the Harry Styles character was originally played by Shia LaBeouf Yes, unfortunately had to talk about Shia LaBeouf a lot on this show But Shia LaBeouf was publicly credibly accused of abuse by fka twigs at the beginning of 2021 When this movie was in production, right? I believe we talk more about this in the episode on holes But yeah, Shia LaBeouf left don't worry darling seems like august of 2020 There are conflicting accounts of what happened Olivia Wilde says that she fired him because he brought a combative energy to the set That his work style clashed with the cast and crew She was trying to cultivate a safe space for everyone and felt like he was putting that in jeopardy Shia LaBeouf denies that he was fired saying that he quit because He and the other actors were not given adequate time to rehearse And then Olivia Wilde wanted him to come back to the project, but he refused We weren't there. We don't know exactly what happened. What I do know is that I'm glad I didn't have to watch him in this movie And I would rather watch Harry Styles any day I'm also thinking I was thinking about Another movie in the me to women trying to talk about me to school Blink twice which actually does have You know another messy movie, but like I do think women should be allowed to make these movies about this subject until someone gets it, right? But you know with the Harry Styles connection of zoey cravitz being behind the helm of that one That movie has a better more nuanced depiction of like Women who are complicit in the genie davis character Yeah, they do kind of undo that because women don't seem capable of accepting that sometimes other women are villains um And that movie I think is just it's my turn now like the the crazy girl boss ending of blink twice where it's like You know in feminist america like we enslave you like I'm jeff bezos now and you're like Yeah, I still gotta watch and then it's like brought to you by amazon movies Oh my god, it's that and poor things has the same kind of ending. Oh, yeah, we try to put that too Yeah, it can be cathartic It can totally be cathartic to flip the script and be like and now the women are you know using men's bodies for their own amusement Uh, but in movies that are ostensibly about feminist politics like that doesn't Fly so much right right. It's just like I don't know it's it It was fun at first. I will say like I I'm not above a good for her ending. Yeah, if if it feels earned I don't know If it feels earned why not but this movie is just like it just doesn't feel earned. No it does not Uh, does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss? I don't think so. I was just I was just worried darling So I was We were we were worried darling. I think my final thought on it is that we The the fact that Olivia wild is trying to be sympathetic to what you can uh, kind of reductively describe as The media and trump voter the conservative person who's feeling economic and cultural anxieties about their insecure position in a world That is objectively getting worse on every level Particularly in a class conscious way. I think is commendable. I think Presenting like trying to give some sympathy, you know, however perverse they may sound to the What's now being referred to as the male loneliness epidemic of it all with harry stiles's character Is interesting and I found that way more engaging on this round in this current political climate But she does so at the complete loss of nuance or coherence And I think that we should really we should all be worrying darling And we should all be trying to make a better version of this movie that includes people and lets people be Complicated and let's Florence Pugh want to have her martinis at noon and let's harry stiles be misogynistic Like textually as well as uh structurally, you know, right and we can do it. We can do we can do better We should make hard art. We should make complicated art We should make icky art and women should do all of that and I'm waiting and worrying darling And if you and and if you fail you it should not do me your entire career Yeah, does it count as a character being complicated? If Olivia Wilde's character bunny When she reveals that she is voluntarily in victory because in this universe she still has her kids But the entire movie we see her not interacting with her children at all We see her yelling at them not being affectionate with them instead. She's day drinking All the time and completely neglecting her children. Yeah with no babysitter. Is that complex? Is that a complex character? It sort of makes you wonder what happened to her kids and wasn't a result of her Was it her fault? They're they're not real kids. I can say that um, I Yeah, no I that and again, it's like that is another little chicken nugget of like, oh, what an interesting Potential thing to explore that's just like at the very end of the movie I don't know. Yeah, it's just it's a mess, but I I agree with you Peyton. I think that uh, this movie should Someone's gonna get it someone's gonna figure it out one of these days And it feels like I don't know definitely a moment It is weird that this movie has both become more and less timely in the three years since it came out right As far as the beckett'll test it does pass there are many scenes in which Women are talking to each other about other women because they're gossiping or they're Or at least one of them is questioning. What's really going on with the victory project and da da da So, you know the movie passes the beckett'll test but as we always Exactly exactly but to to move on to The perfect metric by which we examine movies the beckett'll cast nipple scale In which we rate a movie on a scale of zero to five nipples Examining it through an intersectional feminist lens I Think i'm gonna go two nipples It is attempting to start to say something the movie does have an agenda It just feels like something that maybe would have come out in like 2012 instead of 2022 it just it feels quite behind in its intersectionality and its ability to Really thoughtfully examine see I kind of disagree. I feel like this is very 2022 and it's well In its white feminism. Well, especially in in hollywood certainly where you know, this is this is a mainstream studio movie Made by privileged rich white people. So yeah, this is not going to be the radical leftist intersectional takedown of patriarchy and white supremacy that we'd love to see Because hollywood isn't really in the business of doing that at least not at this time So I guess what you're saying is that it feels like a real hollywood movie like a film movie It's like a movie wait. Hold on there is a someone that says something like this one Is it is it that it's it's a it's a movie that feels Like a movie very underrated element of that clip is chris pine just shark-eyed Dead eyes in the background. He was so checked out on this press tour It's funny though because that quote actually has become a staple since this movie came out of when i'm watching movies with my husband Like we will be watching a movie and he'll be going It feels like a movie and he actually did this forgetting that it came from this movie when we started watching this movie for this episode He was like it looks like a So it all circles back around It is beautiful. Look I I was not I was not a directioner But the harry styles appeal. I get it. I get it because he's just saying shit. He's saying shit He's minding his own business. He just ran a He's like in incognito mode right now except for fucking zoe craffitz, which he's he wants everybody to know And sure, but he is like living in cognitive mode right now and ran a marathon under a fake name Whoa, katelyn. Did we talk about this? No, we didn't just a fun Not passing the back to the test Thing. Yeah, he just like ran the berlin marathon under the name stead serandos Okay, good for him and he got a great time. So, you know, he's just he's just chilling He's doing what more absurdly rich people do which is just being quiet and Yes, so you're going to oh, yes two nipples for all the reasons we've previously discussed on this episode and you know that i'm gonna give my nipples to Shane van dyke writer and director of titanic 2 my favorite movie of all time We got a cover jk jk, but yeah, we really oh we you know, we haven't done a titanic episode this year And it's it's not too late, but it's not too late. Okay. Okay. Something to consider Yeah, two nipples to Shane van dyke Two nipples to titanic 2 sure is more accurate I'm gonna go one and a half which is maybe a little I like I agree this movie is trying to do stuff I feel like I don't know. I feel like I've been very inconsistent in this episode of like It's just it's a hard one because I feel like in general we are culturally still very hard on feminist art that does not completely Like work and I know I've been guilty of being overly critical of a movie that feels like a movie But because this movie was really aggressively marketing itself as something that had something to say about feminism and having it sort of be this kind of cowardly White feminist it's basically, you know, there's no egg inside the egg when I see that's The central image of the movie. I was promised an egg and I was given a shell and So I don't really know like I maybe that's a little too hard on a movie that does seem to be doing its best But its best isn't great But but I agree with I'm going to be thinking about like we should keep trying We should keep trying to make this movie and we should give someone who is not already a wealthy white woman a crack at it Perhaps. Yeah, so with that I'm going to give it one and a half nipples and I'm going to give half a nipple to the egg that wasn't an egg And I'm going to give my other nipple to the plot rock Nice Peyton, how about you? I think one and a half is right Because this movie raised my blood pressure in such a specific way Watching it fail. I think It's so compelling and so in a certain sense. I give it like Three nipples for like incurring my feminist rage and making me more conscious as a feminist in that moment But I'm going to give A whole nipple to it's my turn now uh And then half a nipple to the wig The hairstyle stringy wig you really have to love the wig. They thought they were doing something with the wig I was just going to say the one thing we haven't mentioned you're because you're so worried about the the egg as metaphor Um, I was thinking like the title don't worry darling comes from an ad from the 1950s Where there's a woman in front of a stove and everything's burning behind her and she is a handkerchief And she's crying on her husband's shoulder and her husband says don't worry darling You didn't burn the beer and like that's how I feel about Olivia Wilde's making this movie being like I love martinis Like well, don't worry darling. You didn't burn the beer, you know Wow It's just you know, we'll we'll get them. We'll get them next time question mark. We'll get them next time We worried darling. Um, and Peyton, thank you so much for worrying with us. Yes. Oh my gosh Thank you for having me. Of course come back anytime. I would love to talk which movies with you Hell yeah, where can we find your work? You can find me on instagram at payplace p a y t p l a c e you can pick up my Book or the previous one which is about national treasure and conspiracy theory Wherever books are sold and the national treasure The national treasure. I'm gonna steal it. I'm gonna steal the declaration of independence national treasure. Oh, why yes Okay, there's so much it started as a joke and then it turns out the conspiracy theorists Love national treasure and you would not believe the things I found God Really? Okay. I will be purchasing But yeah, I'm around. Thank you so much for joining us and you can find us all the regular places mostly instagram and you can follow our or join our Matrion which is our patreon where for five dollars a month you can get two bonus episodes on a Topic on a very obscure topic of our choosing over yours. Don't worry. It's not a simulation. It's wink This is no Caitlyn does actually have me strapped in a room somewhere The reason that we have to like have heart outs during our recording is so Caitlyn can dribble something in my eyeball So my so I don't turn into a husk Um, oh god, imagine if if I was a podcaster in the simulation, I would be so pissed off Like if I'm in the simulation, I better have a martini and just be day drinking all the time Truly, but yes, you can find us there five dollars a month gets you access to two new episodes a month and access to hundreds of back episodes Indeed And with that we can finally stop worrying darling. Oh, thank god and have a martini Bye The Bechtel cast is a production of iHeart media hosted and produced by me jamie loftis and me Caitlyn dirante The podcast is also produced by soffie lichterman and edited by Caitlyn dirante ever heard of them That's me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed by jamie loftis ever heard of her Oh my god And our theme song by the way was composed by mike caplan with vocals by kathryn vasquezzinski Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle as a veto for more information about the podcast. 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