I’m Not Disappearing - A Candid Conversation About Aging

I never dated you know like we just you got a boyfriend now. I have people who take care of me in very nice So when you say they take care of you Got your Wednesday, dude, you got your no different places in the world Oh, oh, oh, yes, it's a little bit better to be in different places in the world This episode of IMO is brought to you by progressive insurance and Cera V Welcome to the look a special series on IMO The look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book which is available for purchase now I'm Jenna Lyons designer and entrepreneur and I'm here with a table of legends We have Beth Ann Hardison a former fashion model modeling agent and activist known for her groundbreaking work in the fashion space and Jane Fonda Academy Award-winning actress and activist and of course needing no introduction Michelle Obama Thank you all for being here and thank you for having me Today we're going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging in the public eye But we're also going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging period How do we find our purpose as we age so to get started? I'd like to get a sense of what aging has been like for all of you We're gonna start with you Michelle. Oh my goodness the baby the baby. Oh well the crew I'm just not started yet of that fair I agree you Started aging yet not really no I mean I happen to have been here at her 50th birthday party and literally you look exactly the same But that's not aging. It's not what you look like is what you feel well I think that's an interesting point because I think that well being younger That's what I thought I thought the Golden Girls was aging and I didn't understand that aging can look very different So I'm curious when you were younger. What did you think aging would look like and what you scared? you know It was who your grandparents were and what a and I'm I'm doing the counting now I'm trying to remember how old were my grandparents when I thought they were old and They were 50 in their late 50s and 60s Yeah And as black people working class black people people died in their 70s I had a great grandmother that lived in she till she was 83 my paternal grandmother lived into her 80s, but my other grandparents died in their 70s And that wasn't an unusual thing. So I thought aging if I were to think I would think that by the time I am my age now And I am you guys 62 am I 62 everyone help me. I'm 61. Okay. I'm sorry 64 I was on my second husband Well, but if I were to think about then what 61 was 61 would be my grandparents, right? Yes, and And I know that that's and they were old. I mean because back then people People let themselves age. I mean it was sort of like People just said okay. That's it. I'm old I'm through trying to worry about getting dressed and what I look like people were retiring You know, I mean it just seemed like aging was off a cliff Well, and I think society sort of made you feel like once you were certain age You were kind of not as relevant. I'm curious Jane what was like for you? What were you worried about when you were younger about getting older? I Didn't think I'd live past 30. I was sure I was gonna die my mother died when I was 12 My youth was not especially happy and I thought I was gonna die I'm not addictive, but I thought I was gonna die from drugs and loneliness So the fact that I'm almost 88 is astonishing to me That I I'm better now than I wouldn't go back for anything I'm I feel more centered more whole more Complete I'm very happy single You're a fan I'm a fan of you how about for you Bethan? I think I think just recently I've begin to notice that there's a change in time in my body, but my mind and my spirit continues I I have no problem telling people what I think but I don't think I ever did have that problem And I also love the idea that I love by others You still have men in your life and but you have your freedom to be independent And I just love being older because people jump to help you and I love being older because I Don't act like it you sure Were you afraid of getting older when you were younger? No, you were never I never even imagine that like like Jane said I thought I wasn't gonna live past the age 26 And I went when they gave me my 26 birthday party I was supposed to be it you know like a party of celebrating me and I just stood outside I'm scared to go in because I couldn't believe it was happening But truth it wasn't out of some other fear. It just was a thought you know I was a cool kid, but it's just something like that and now it just don't seem to stop my life doesn't stop I'm always going and doing and you know Still trying to change something or fix something or help something even though I still want to be just in the hammock and with a tequila I'm curious. Um, was there now that you've gotten older and you're feeling beautiful as you all seem to be really in your body It was there a moment where you started stopped worrying or sort of stopped thinking about oh, I have another gray hair I have another wrinkle. Did it ever just stop? I'm looking at you Jane. I Don't it I've I've never been afraid of aging and I'm more importantly. I'm not afraid of dying But I'm the most important thing I did was when I I was gonna turn 60 and in my mind First 30 years second 30 years. This is the beginning of my final act and I didn't know how to live it and So I thought well, what up? What am I most afraid of I'm not afraid. I'm afraid of dying with a lot of regrets I watched my dad die with a lot of regrets That was an important Realization for me because if you don't want to die with regrets Then you have to live your the last part of your life in such a way that there won't be any regrets Yeah, I also want to be surrounded by people who love me. Oh, well, I have to forgiveness comes into play Including forgiving myself, you know you so and that that actually has guided me in the last 30 years I've been living to not have regrets Hey, I think it's it's interesting Jane that you say that because I've been talking about this phase of my life Because I'm trying to be more conscious Conscious about it because and I think it disturbs some of the young people in my life when I talk about the this Perhaps the last chapter, you know, if I think 60 because I am trying to be mindful it's 60. Yeah and on If if I'm lucky to live To to the age that you guys are we're still talking about 25 more summers 27 maybe 30 if we're lucky when I say that the horror that comes over the faces of young people they yeah, I'm saying I'm not you know, I'm not regretful I I just I know how fast time goes Like that we will have almost been 10 years out of the White House a decade We were in the we were in the White House doesn't seem so it doesn't seem so But that 10 years flew and in it I yes, I wrote two books and my husband wrote a book and we campaigned for people and we Made movies It was like post the White House having had eight years of a big huge life of impact There was still 10 and it happened like that So I just told myself like I am I so love life That I want to be mindful of the time that I have yeah because if you don't acknowledge that we at 60 We do have maybe one more chapter then it starts slipping away I want time to slow down. So, you know, it's interesting as you speak you actually have been thinking about this like a Like a novel you really been really thinking about and then there's something that Jane said I heard meant some time ago That always makes me repeat it. She said, you know, you don't feel old as long as you're healthy So true. Yeah, I'm saying that yeah, I mean I Think that old age is fantastic. Yeah, if it's lived intentionally intentionality is the key Really thinking about it This happens to me all the time I start a sentence Why should I be alone I Don't remember what was it? No, but I was saying that what you've said and I keep this in mind Exactly feel old as long as you're healthy. Yeah, if you're a healthy, you don't feel oh But I am someone who was raised to believe in death. So between my brand name believe in death. I'll tell you My grandmother always said to me when I was eight nine years old I said, what do you think what's life gonna be like and her name mama Carrie? I used to call her and she said, I don't know But for sure you're gonna die She'd say straight up I went to live with my father 12 and he's a Islamic Imam leader And he would say to me also they you know You know, they they live to die they prepare their body their world to die, you know, that's what would go to paradise So you come up in two different backgrounds of people who really talk about death So like when you're saying earlier about young people hate to hear you talking about like the journey and the end And I'm all about that. I talk about my mother was like that I mean, I joke that my mother was preparing us for her death when we were 10. Yeah And I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah, my my because my mother and she her philosophy of raising children First of all is like first of first of all, I'm raising you for me I'm raising you to be an adult and to be able to live independently and have an independent life Which meant that she wanted us to know that we could make it with or without her And I think she was mentally and I can see this now as a mother um as a mother one of the The the points of uh exhaling is when my girls got to the point where I Where I knew they would be fine without me. That's right. They would miss me. Yeah, but that they're okay They have the lessons in their head. They have common sense. They understand a lot of the basics They still have a lot to to to grow and I tell them this Yeah, this is a relief to me. Yeah that you can take care of yourself because I see that at my mother She wanted us to grow up and be ready So when she died, which was you know, it was recently. Yeah You know, she would always say you can be sad But be sad for a minute. Yeah Because if you're sitting around Moning and acting like you can't get on she says I'm gonna be in my grave really pissed You know, um, no, I I get the same thing what you say when young people hate things Or people in general no matter what age they say don't talk like that. It's really I think it's so ridiculous That's come on. You do be going everyone. No one comes here. That's the only thing that's guaranteed That's what she would say my grandma, but for joy in life. Yes, you know It's like light makes sense of dark Noise makes sense of silence death makes sense of life And if you don't deal with it, you're not really living fully. I think listening to all of you talk You're all talking about the cerebral part the healthy part the emotional part of aging And it's really interesting because I think when I was younger I was scared of I'm gonna fall apart basically like that I was sort of bred to think that way and um listening to you talk. It's actually very it's very encouraging Very inspiring. I'm thrilled to be hearing this. Um Michelle you previously talked about how society has unrealistic expectations on what it means to age gracefully And how there's still an expectation to preserve your youthful appearance Which is a little bit of what I'm talking about whether some of the ways you push back against that messaging After hearing that, you know, I I agree with you both that health is the key. I mean, I am I work out I I think about what I eat Don't give me I dye my hair I you know, I do care about the physical But a lot of it is because I I think We also have to have a healthy baseline In order to know when something is wrong So I think, you know, we have to sort of maintain a baseline of health where you're not bloated and you're not Constipated and you know, things are regular and you you know what hail and hearty feels like because some of the first signs of illness come from Fatigue, you know, well, how do you know that there's something wrong if you're always fatigued? I think I could be something wrong and I'll just be running anyway I need to slow down, but I can't well, you know what whatever you're meant to be right But whatever you're doing beth Ann is is working. Yeah, right? It does work with spirit. Yeah But I but I think baseline health is is very important always important And that's that's first and foremost. Look how so many people really work hard at being healthy and they still die Or they still it's true. We all die, but I mean still get sick Well, there's I mean, there's no things you can do you can do It's just how your body works your chromosomes how they all work together fit You just never know. I mean some people, you know, like they said well, my grandmother smoked and drank until she was 94 You know all things like that, but we do need to make an effort I This segment is brought to you by Sarah V The number one dermatologist recommended skincare brand developed with dermatologists to help you feel comfortable in your own skin Hey, mish What do you think being comfortable in your own skin means? Well, for me, it means feeling good inside and out And it's not not just what i'm wearing, but it's how i'm feeling. It's about, you know, little things about, you know You know in our family not being ashy This is an important part of feeling good. Um, you know, so taking care of myself, you know Lotioning my skin, um, you know working out at the gym, uh You know, that's to me what feeling good in my own skin means. Yeah I I I I hear you on sort of the moisturizing and keeping yourself well prepared Self-care, but you know when I think about being in my own skin I I reckon back to when mom used to say You don't need to worry about people who are outside this house You should feel comfortable in your own skin, which made me feel confident and assured when I went outside That no matter what somebody said to me. I always felt comfortable But it also helped you not be an ashy And speaking of not being ashy and taking care of your skin a big thanks to sarah v for supporting this conversation Sarah v's new intensive body moisturizer line, which comes as a lotion and cream Has been helping a lot of people find the same kind of comfort in their skin It's rich creamy and made with hydra urea three essential ceramides and shea butter to deliver 72 hours of hydration and 99 percent itch relief while strengthening your skin barrier Sarah v is developed with dermatologist and the number one dermatologist recommended skincare brand Thanks again to sarah v for being a champion of healthy and comfortable skin for all We all feel our best when we're comfortable in our own skin Sarah v helps you get there learn more at sarah v.com And it's all about balance for that very reason, you know, it's like if you if you're working out so hard that you can't enjoy life Right, brock and I went out to dinner last night and you know, we were at a restaurant and the guys said are there any dietary restrictions and Brock is like, I don't believe in dietary restrictions, especially when you're eating out. I mean my in my opinion You know, you shouldn't eat out and be worried about what you're going to eat You know, these are the times that you should enjoy everything and take everything in so while we're both very healthy There's also the balance of well, we got to find joy in it, right because we don't know Yeah, I have a theory that you know, I'm controversial and I'm an activist and I've been very unpopular I'm popular right now. It probably won't last But I think that it's important For somebody like me who's an activist to show that I can also look good And then I'm still hireable You know it encourages the young ones to not be so afraid of it I mean, I am curious because this I'm a tall girl and I'm just wondering how it's being taller Affected your styling choices and when it comes to aesthetics and things like heels Oh my gosh, you know, it was different at different ages. You know, when I was younger being tall was like, oh my god Tattles boys or they're short and the clothes we they weren't tall sizes They weren't long in in seam. So life was this, you know pushing up the sleeve and Stretching the pant leg down so that you weren't flooding. Um, it was just a nightmare, right? Um, but now oh Now that I Oh my god, I love my height. I love a four inch heel as long as I'm just walking from here to there Um, that's all I do Backstage to a chair So you're like so you're like the four year old and your your mother's shoes. Yes. Yeah. That's how it is for me now Yeah, um, I love the silhouette of a heel the way it makes your foot look But I like a kitten heel because I'm also I don't want to be that uncomfortable So now it's I feel like I completely own all of me my height my all of it Fortunately, I have a tall husband But I have also have a husband who doesn't mind when I'm right eye to eye with him because I've got a heel on He's like, okay, we're going to be tall tonight. Yes. We are Um, and it helps right because my partner loves every inch of me. Uh, so that so that helps Was there ever an outfit that you look back on and were like, oh my god, that was my absolute flop What is well outfit you can think of it was a total flop that you made. Oh, yeah hundreds. I mean, I never you know This is where my connection to to how I looked changed. I was making on golden pond with my father and and Henry Fonda and Catherine Hepburn and one of the early days and I was Stain we were just about to start and I was looking in a mirror to fix my hair and she came up Catherine Hepburn came up behind me And she took my cheek like this and she said this is your box This is how you present What do you want it to say? I didn't know what she was Years of lying in bed thinking what did she mean and then I realized what she was saying you gotta See, I always thought the being self-conscious was bad But what she was telling me is be conscious of how you are presenting yourself to the world Nobody was as conscious of how she presented as Catherine Hepburn, right? She had a look and presented herself But it really made me think And so I started to To pay attention to what I wore and how I looked at my hair I hadn't before and she didn't like that about me. Yeah, so she really taught me a lot I would never have thought Catherine Hepburn would have been the one she seemed like that wasn't something that was so present for her But she wasn't a fashion person. That's what I mean. It wasn't it's no she had a look right, but I would not have thought about it Anything and bohemianism is much more Taylor Yeah, she just felt like you were just not thinking at all. I wasn't thinking at all Come on Represent What does what does fashion mean for you today and this is a question for all of you So you all get to answer this one. I'll start with you bethane. Well, you're asking the wrong person because I'm not a big fan of Well, that's I think that's an important question answer because you come from that world and you know the world well I mean, you don't like like you you know come to garseung I mean, yeah, and I also and I'm always also always in Gucci as you see me go out now mostly right That's true. Because I work in it as a consultant to the brand which era of Gucci are we talking about right now? But I think in in the end of the day, what was questioning? I Your relation to fashion Yeah, so now I think it really is yeah, I'm more concerned with helping others I'm more much more interested in helping designers and creative people and We do have a community the designers hub and things I I really want to help them to get it right get it out of it Don't stay in it. Don't be hang on to it. It's not what you it's all it's cracked up to be Understand that what seems like it's what all the shines is not gold all that glitter so all that you know Know what you should do and shouldn't don't get into because everybody thinks it's cool I know Jane you said that you would stop buying new clothes at one point I'm wondering what triggered that moment for you Greta Thunberg the climate activist from sweden. Yeah You know, I mean we've all seen images of the the you know clothes get dumped in the ocean and How much we have it's a problem and and um This this is this is gabriella hearst totally circular, you know No, the carbon footprint is minimal. So that's what I look for now. Yeah is is recyclable Reused people are really conscious about what they make. Yeah, yeah, right Um, so I'm curious, you know as we get older if we are single there is you know the dating world and I'm curious if you're I know you're not in it. Are you on it? I have never dated in my life Wait, dating is a very funny word. Yeah. Well, what does that mean? I don't know you go to a to a bar and you sit there and you meet somebody Or you start going out. I I don't know seem like every time I've been met somebody that was my boyfriend So I never dated, you know, like we just you got a boyfriend now I have people who take care of me in very nice people. Okay. Okay. Wow. Okay, have you ever been on an app? Never So when you say they take care of you You got your wednesday, dude, you got your no in a different place in the world Oh, yes, it's a little bit better to be in different places in the world Well, do are we outing you do they know about each other? Where do we where do you meet them? Like you like you care They're not going anywhere. Where do you meet? I mean, they're just you know, you you meet them when you go into a place in the world Okay, and someone may introduce you to someone but I you know, mexico You know in other places too you have people who I just believe that women who who are alone Who? Professor being lonely They have such prerequisites of who they would date And I think they should just let somebody who wants to come along and take care of them love them Care for me doesn't even have to be sexual It could just be the intimacy that we talk about you said a fear Enemies see is such an important thing and it doesn't have to be sexual The fact that you could have that and so many people said well, he's too young. Why are you going to marry him? What why is he too young if he wants to be with you enjoy him or her? Sorry that yes I would go out with somebody who is my age, but I can't have an angel in it like a cut off no limits Interesting. Okay. Go ahead. I don't date I I get married Great marriages, but yeah, really interesting marriages. I'm really grateful but um I don't feel the need to date nobody asks me anyway, so But I feel the need to date either my girlfriends are the world to me. They make me braver They they make me laugh, you know women friends are very different than male friends Absolutely male friends sit next to each other looking out at things girls women Cars sports women look at each other. So true and they're not afraid to ask for help. Oh, boy. I need give me a hug What should I be doing now? We're not afraid to be vulnerable with each other Yeah, it feeds our soul even if I don't know we've been apart for years when we get back together Soul level right away. Yes. Right down. Yeah, and we that's how we That's why I think was one of the main reasons why we live longer, but then this one is for you Um, what kind of anti-aging pressures do you see in the fashion industry? Help lead me with that because I don't understand. I'm just curious like the fashion industry is obviously is notoriously one for like you are In and then you're out. You don't necessarily have a long career I know I felt that in my own career that I was going to age out of the industry and I was wondering if you felt that Never really no, I just interesting. But did you feel it externally people facing it towards you meaning maybe you didn't think that way? But did you feel no? That fan is so special Gangsta what I do. So I don't think anything that In the idea really truly I never thought about that, you know, because even when I had dreadlocks Long and that was many many years ago before dreadlocks were before they were in people would say Can you push back? No, no, I mean I guess I don't think you'd notice push back if it pushed you in the Some things, you know some things you could see but absolutely you're great about and I think when you work in a corporation You gotta you'll be conscious of that because you worked in corporation. Yeah, and in my world, you know We're like flying by the seat of our pants. I had a model agency I'm doing things I really shouldn't do don't want to do in the end of the day, you know You're coming hardcore and people are cheering you on I never even thought about that Now I see myself in pictures and I see the difference of how I look When I would people say you still look the same and no, I don't look at this picture and look at that picture I'm fucking 40 years old And I feel bad about that But it doesn't stop me or make me feel like oh no, I can't go forth But I think what you say bethane to get to your point jenna is that yeah, there is crazy pressure that we're not supposed to evolve You know and and men have a different kind of pressure um, you know just look at our our leaders can look at the you know, I mean What's allowed? Yeah Jane said as an activist she feels like she has to show up looking good, right? I don't I don't think you'd hear a male activist Saying absolutely not. Um, I don't think they could think it but they probably they couldn't say it out loud because they don't have that Intellect to say it out loud, but they probably look it but I don't think you know I think it I I don't think they I I think that there are A real activist. I think there are many ways physically For men to look powerful and be desirable I think you know, I think there there's a wide spectrum Now I do think that men have a limit on on what Being a man is and I think that that's a shame. That's a burden You know on men that there's still three ways you can be you have to be competitive. You have to be contu tough You can't cry you can't show your emotions as well So I think emotionally they're limited, but physically It's the world. We're sure there's no question I'm I'm curious for you jane because obviously your industry is very Challenging in terms of what you were saying michelle like the standards of beauty for women in your industry are very different than air for men I mean at the number of times I've seen a man who is much older And his girlfriend or wife looks like she's 20 years younger I mean, have you do you feel like it's changed? You feel like it's getting better. Do you feel like it's still the same? No, I'm sorry that look I thought all I heard was younger. That's all I heard in the whole It's hard. Yeah, I'm not sure that it's You know as I'm saying I'm not sure it's getting better. I'm seeing Helen Mirren You know, I'm seeing me. I'm seeing older women who are still Taking leading roles. Yes, and I think that's It's really good. I just came back from Paris. I walked the the saw that I did delay for l'oreal I've been working for the I'm the oldest living skincare ambassador In the world and they still and me and her and Helen because they know they have a market that's there Yeah, there's no doubt. I really appreciate that. I do too. I recognize that. Yes. I do too. Yeah very much so But that's new. I mean, that's relevant. That's recent, right? Definitely And it's recent in the apparel fashion industry what we want to call it Because you know, we we see it on the runway. We see it in commercials, you know, all sizes now people That's that's definitely less advertising The other thing is hurting the all sizes. I'm not gonna lie that one. We are seeing rollback for sure But I think the diversity in age has gotten better. All right, go ahead question You all have experienced the media scrutinizing your bodies over the years And how did that affect your how you viewed your own body and how does that affect your current confidence? I was made to feel fat when I was little And very much objectified by my parents. Well, my mom was dead, but my dad he was a good person, but It was just a problem, you know, and it came from your father. Your bathing suit is too big, you know small You got don't don't wear you didn't know too short. I don't know. He was always critical of my physical being And so I had body dysmorphia most of my life and suffered from eating disorders So it's been a battle for me And at almost 88, I'm happy to say I don't give a flying fuzzy rat's ass I want to look good enough that I can get work But I'm not worried about it anymore if I was married to a man. I it's still ingrained in me, you know I grew up in the 40s and 50s. Yes I would have a problem, but I'm single so I don't care Well, I will say that your workout video was one of my favorite. It was it was a game changing It was really it was really anything that was designed for women and I was so inspired. I loved it I was one of my favorites. It was all done to raise money for the campaign for economic democracy. No It was very influential for a lot of young men myself, but I was surprised at how What an effect it had it was it was great. Yeah, it's just true. It's cultural This episode of IMO is brought to you by progressive insurance Who help people move forward and live fully? 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I kept thinking about I I I kept thinking about representing representing I think I think I was think yeah, thank you I think I was always thinking about represent. I I I didn't mind being the only one You didn't I never never sweat me none because I didn't think that anybody was better than I anyway And I but I honestly did think I'm oh this is just the beginning. Where did your confidence come from? I'm curious because it seems so I want to tell you a story I used to be in a gang Wait, wait back up. What I should be in a gang. You were a gang banger. Where was this cool in brooklyn? And I think sometimes you you uh often I tell this to people they go are you serious? Yeah, but it wasn't the guy. I believe it. Yeah, I know you do But but no I was I think you know even then I always had confidence I think I saw it. I was a last kid kid as a kid You know, uh had to go home, you know after seven years old let yourself in the house Most my grandmother my mother worked, but I was on the streets fighting. It's true back then It wasn't like real guns You got mostly beat up. Maybe someone might have gotten stabbed that was this huge And this and this gang was five burrows and it was one of the best gangs and so I sometimes give them a shout out What was your enterprise your gang enterprise? What's that mean? Was it drugs? Was it no, we didn't have the There were you were you swinging this was the 50s? Was it territorial? That's all So You really remember what you I think a lot of it's also I I really always I started writing the book and it's like I realized by 12 I had really already been very successful. I did a lot of things on my own I would tell my mother and grandmother what I was doing next and they'd go. Oh my god That's what else you're going to do and you know, they just let me go So I think I always had I think people come to earth that have that I think you too You came to earth with it. Well, no matter how much you were being oppressed You were meant to grow. I think you're born resilient me too Me too and it's it's interesting because two siblings can be born close together same parents And one will be resilient and one won't exactly. It's a thing for the brain too Well, you do as a as a parent if you have more than one kid, you know, you see it really clearly that that Nature really does play a role. There is a part of me that always felt like I I knew Certain things about myself really young. You know, like I knew what I knew me too. Um, and the The confidence the same thing my mother would always say. Oh, I didn't raise Michelle. She raised herself same pretty much She always knew certain things. It is she's just like I just let her go. Yeah, and I'm like mom. That's not true I was listening to you But when I think of the messages that I told myself and that's why I when I talk to young people I'm I'm trying to get them to tap into that voice Because you hear it early in yourself, you know, and I'm trying to tell kids like listen to that voice If it is interesting you're saying that That's interesting because that's true But you don't know that when you're young. That's the point. That's really you don't know it. You don't know You don't hear no voice. You just you know I didn't have one. I didn't have anything. I didn't get a voice until I was in my 60s. I'm telling you I don't think I got a voice until last week What happened? I don't know that week. You were born with a voice. No, I really did. Wait, you were in a gang when I was born. I last week I started realizing God damn my ankles swell Just every so often Age time on earth no matter how much I'm buzzing around in Fashion week and coming here and do it just little things start coming to you that makes you know Okay, this shit's shifting like you said about time and men and You just things I start to realize okay, and even though I just had a birthday too And I hate ever saying how now I just let people talk about it. I'm just so mad about it I really am I just don't want anybody telling me anymore. So you're 83 It pisses me off, but I like being older The freedom to be older right me too. I know you do because I know who I am now I didn't know for a long long time and And I like to talk about that because it helps young people who don't know you know people are so it's hard to be young It's way easier to be older. Yeah much easier. I would never you don't have oh Me and the driver just talking about me either. I mean the point. Well, first of all, I had I can't bullshit. I had a great Growing up years I had a very good childhood and I mean I came out Bethesdaverson Brooklyn two parents both female Then went to live with my dad who was much more of the intellect and all I really had a great childhood I didn't have all the oppressions and teens and being hit and took So I don't have any complaint that way, but when you start to write about who you are you start to learn more of who you are Yeah, right. That's true. You yeah When you start to write about what was well the thing that I feel like when And I I don't know whether this is unique to women But it is true for me that it wasn't until now That I feel like I can own my wisdom Like like the thing I didn't know I can look back and go I can look back now and say that four-year-old person did Know something that I wasn't ready or able to claim because I didn't realize it and I think the words we as women I just find that we aren't ready to own our wisdom until now When we are sure that we've learned the lesson that when we can look back on a life and actually point to the The things that have happened to say on that that actually worked out the way I planned But you don't wisdom it's interesting As as an older person I've learned this wisdom doesn't come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding What they are what they are and that's why at a certain point in life. It's so important to really Think about your life. You know when I turned 60 wanting to figure out the last I I knew that you can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been and that's when I began to Really study myself like I wasn't me like I was somebody else Like an archaeologist and and really and and then wisdom came when I started to really figure it out. It didn't just You know what I mean? Yes So smart what you I really you are you to me have always been one of the smartest women I mean really you are you really No, you're not Not claiming your wisdom. No, but she you really I've always thought of you being so smart even even with all the mistakes You think you made I always thought you are so smart listening to you now I mean the average young person would never think a person like you said about how we think of age when we're kids We think 50 done. Here you are in your 80s talking shit the most people are an expression My son said the other day my mother talk since I was born my mother's talked about her death It's focusing on the end and how you want the I mean we could all die tomorrow We don't know how we're going to die, but having a vision of how you want it It's so smart and then living to them and you're having you always being your husband always saying how smart you were How smart you were how smart you're so smart? And I never went to college, but you're so smart. I mean I went to if I see that's not college I mean, but there's there's there's there's all kinds of smart, you know, I mean because you know, they're they're people who are more academically lettered They accomplish more they don't take the steps. There's a combination as smart as a combination of things There's also there's IQ and there's eq and they're very different And I think very particularly in the corporate world eq is often more valuable than IQ I spent a lot of time recently in in in Louisiana on the Gulf Louisiana in texas with people who live near Terminals and they're called sacrifice zones and most of the activists were women They're so smart Most of them didn't graduate high school, but they're the smartest people. I know they just naturally have yeah Yeah, I'm gonna bring us back. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm this is directed towards you, Michelle You share in your book that society tends to diminish older women and expect them to fade into the background younger women too However, you've chose to go the opposite direction And it's also shown up in your fashion and you've worn bolder looks and gotten much more sort of expressive I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you're feeling now about the way you show up Yeah, I think my trajectory was a little unconventional, you know, that eight years stint as first lady Tends tends to confine To be a bit confining. Yeah, right because You know that the role the job was not to just represent me but to represent the nation And as the first black family in that house just like, you know, black folks Feel in all the first positions that we're the you know, we're we're carrying the torch We're lighting the way which means that we've got to do it really really well So that the next Folks will have a chance, you know, when you're when you're the only You know, you feel like if you don't get it right, nobody will ever get this position women people of color People of of different ethnicities of different genders and sexual Orientation we all feel that so a lot of my fashion choices, you know, it's we talk about in the look You know, the look was about Using the the language of fashion as a As a way to send a message to send a message about Beauty about culture about the American spirit about inclusion, right? So that was you know, I had a role, right? Now that I'm out of that role Fashion is is about me. It is selfishly It's completely about what I like and what I want to do it was that way in the White House I mean, but it was Confronted yeah, and so now I I feel like I'd you know, whatever I do. I don't have to explain it Or it doesn't have a consequence in that way and it wasn't that I resent it that but it would that was the assignment representing And now I'm just representing me I remember one of the first outfits you wore after the White House there were sky-high boots and gold and I was like We know I got sent this is so good this book I love the way you talk about what what you just said and I love the way it's manifested in there because you really changed Yeah, what you left and that would make sense too. I'm curious. It's great. We're evolving. I mean, that's the other thing I mean, you know, I have I'm at a different place in life. My kids have graduated. You know, I'm I'm an empty nester Um, I don't wake up me for until they left the house I I woke up every thought was them. You know, it is when they're under my roof I'm like, how are you? Are you eating? What's wrong with you? Are you happy? Am I screwing you up? Are you being isn't being in the White House going to make you crazy? Um, are you crazy? You know, where are you? Why didn't you come home? Why are you in trouble again? Oh my god? Did you do your homework? Are you a strict mom? What you? I was The girls would say I was strict um Because I just believed in boundaries, you know for kids absolutely, uh And you know, they The consequences of their mistakes would be national fodder But also so I I wanted to protect them through that period And and then fight for some normalcy and that takes a little structure. Yeah, and you also your congratulations Some more. Yeah. Where did you succeed? But also you you also your your mother's daughter? I am and that's the same way I feel I feel I believe in being strict. Yeah. Yeah, Bethan. I know we've talked a little bit about you know activism and Particularly, I know you wrote a letter in 2013 to the industry I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about that because I remember the the wave that went through when that happened in 2013 because the industry had sort of like lost its way where You didn't see for a long time for 10 years Say models of color I had to use the model industry I used that and it was like a tool in my chest the model And it was that when you when you I was a model and you saw it was normal to be one of girls color But then at some given point it just disappeared 96 after the black girls coalition where we had the black girls coalition 1996 east in east in europe had opened up And people started to go there, you know scouts and model agencies would be being told you cannot, you know We just not interested in black girls. No blacks. No ethnics. No blacks. No ethics So whatever model agents models that the agencies had they'd have to say to someone during the season. I'm sorry, but Other than that you seeing black girls this season when I seen black boys that season And so at this given point, you know, you say listen, we have not been down this road We had already conquered that so now it's going like in whitewash And I just had to do like a data checking how many models Were being used by each agency to proof it and then really hit the international market, which would be new york, london malan and also paris and I wrote I named all these houses that were guilty Basically that no matter what the intention is if you continue to use one or no or two models of color per season No matter your intent the results is racism And to say that to an industry that would never think they're racist, but they're just busy frolicking with trend Really upset. I knew I knew in my heart. I believe that they weren't racist. I believe they would just bull face ignorant And ignorant to me ignorance is much worse than racism to me So I wrote the letter and sent it out and then everyone started to scramble It made a huge difference. I remember it was a sea change And it changed everything and my point is I was trying not only to change my industry But once we could put those images back into place It would change all industries and it has so this is the you know why history And understanding how we got where we are Is so important right because some would label that as dei Um as affirmative action, right when the truth is is that a lot of the fighting for equity and equality and inclusion Is about the fact that dei was happening in the reverse Um that there there was a lot of blackballing happening throughout the country. It's the history of america You know, you can't join this union unless you were of this ethnicity You don't get this opportunity because of the color of your skin Which means that a lot of the opportunities were earned without merit It was earned because it others were excluded and there wasn't real clear competition The best people weren't always getting the job if you you had to be the son of somebody the daughter of somebody That was that was the history and now to hear people Criticizing dei. I mean, it's almost like okay We we like affirmative action as long as it benefits us You know, but if it's going to bring too many immigrants and People with different skin colors into the fold now we're going to go after it Hi, i'm carl ray and i'm michelle obama's longtime makeup artist I've been on so many of these sets, but i'm so excited to be in front of the camera I've really made my career through word of mouth. That's partly how I ended up doing makeup for michelle obama When I was a young makeup artist I went down to the four seasons hotel and asked if they were hiring The owner of the salon came out and met me for tea and after our conversation. She hired me on the spot I worked at the hotel for 15 years as the resident makeup artist and had the opportunity to work with so many dynamic people One day I got the call to meet michelle obama She asked me to come on as part of her team I spent years building my business by word of mouth But it would have been so much easier to have air b&b when I was coming up Now as a service professional you can list yourself on air b&b You can get discovered by all kinds of potential clients You can easily choose your availability and it's simple to manage bookings With air b&b finding and managing clients as a business owner is so straightforward So if you're a makeup artist like me, you can now list your business on air b&b at air b&b.com slash services Hey everybody, kreg robinson here amazon has everything for everyone on your list like my sister michelle Now let me tell you shopping for her has always been a thing when we were kids She'd circle everything she wanted in the christmas catalog, but now it's impossible to find something for her other than books She doesn't even wear those little fluffy slippers that everybody likes But now with amazon, I don't have to run around to a dozen stores to find the perfect gift for her amazon's got it all in one place books fitness products Even the latest gadgets she likes to play with when she's cooking for the family And with black friday and cyber monday deals I can say big while making sure michelle's got everything she wants And maybe a few things she didn't know she wanted So yeah, this year it's easy amazon's got her covered And that makes me the favored big brother Well, i'm the only big brother, but still Shop black friday week deals now because with amazon black friday week starting november 20th You can save up to 40 percent on the gifts everyone wants like the latest fashion finds and the hottest electronics amazon's got you covered Working on your mental health doesn't happen all at once. It happens in moments one conversation One deep breath one session at a time Growth therapy makes it easier to begin As a coach and an athlete i've always believed taking care of your mind as part of taking care of your overall game You train consistently you build the right support around you and you give yourself space to improve Therapy can be part of that routine Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th Grow makes it simple to find a therapist who actually fits you They connect you with thousands of licensed therapists across the us with virtual or in-person sessions Including nights and weekends You can search by insurance specialty identity Or availability and start in as little as two days No subscriptions. No long-term commitments. Just pay per session on your time Whatever challenges you're facing growth therapy is here to help Grow accepts over a hundred insurance plans including medicaid in some states sessions average about 21 dollars with insurance and some pay as little as zero dollars depending on their plan Visit growth therapy dot com slash imo today to get started That's growth therapy dot com slash imo growth therapy dot com slash imo Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan But knowing this kind of history in the modeling industry that's important But it's also important to elevate it to and that's where we are now And that's what that's why I've made it that way jane this one's for you So since the 70s you've been a very loud activist and willing to fight and sometimes get arrested For major political and civil rights issues. Do you still see yourself as that person today and how has your activism changed? I want to talk about how activism has changed me I don't feel like I really came into being until 1970 When I decided because I lived in france. I was married to a frenchman I came back here because I couldn't protest in france. It didn't feel right And I met people that were different than any people I had I had ever met Oh, so Yeah, well, I remember there was a woman that ran a gi coffee house in kaleen texas And you know sometimes you you find something that you didn't know you were missing You didn't know what existed the way she was with me and with the gis Was different than any people I'd ever met it was like looking at the world we were fighting For through a keyhole and I just that's the team I want to be on and I like to talk about that because The way she was with me is the way we have to be with the millions of people who are going to be hurt by what's happening now And what was that way? Yeah, I'm curious How was she with you? It had nothing to do with what I looked like it had nothing to do with the fact that I was famous barbarela had come out She wanted to know because I was being sent on to the base with to leaflet for a rally that was kind She wanted to how I felt What do you think she asked my opinion? Nobody had ever asked my opinion about things like that I was so new She treated me with respect, but she treated the gis that way too And I saw this And She just showed up in a very human way and I hadn't experienced it before And that's just something about the life I was living. It was quite hedonistic and superficial And and I had avoided dealing with real things because I knew once I knew I'd never turn back. There you go. Yeah, and and uh I just This is the way we have to be you know the the cliche is be the change you're seeking And she was And and that's the way we have to be. Yeah, what do you think is is missing in terms of courage because it takes a certain level of courage to leave To leave a life of safety even though it wasn't perfect You know You were able to live in a in a bubble of sort of my dad. See my dad I grew up with tom jode. I grew up with grapes of wrath and 12 angry men and then yes Exposure to it. Mm-hmm. You know, I was writing my autobiography One day the phone rang it was yolanda king was martin luther king's daughter yolanda And I don't remember why she was calling but since I was writing I I said yolanda when you were growing up did martin luther king About you on his knee and talked you about values and how to live life and she said no I said no in my dad didn't either But you had his sermons And I had my father's films and so that kind of was like fertilizer in my soul And so when I started meeting these new kinds of people it's like I didn't want to go back Number one and number two I You know, they thought oh, she's a white privileged girl, you know, give her a little hard time in choc cave That's right That's why you but also the other important thing is I was never alone. I was part of a movement That's what we have to do now. We have to rebuild movement movement of resistance Along the lines of cnn creative nonviolent non conforming. Yes Is there anything that we scared you when you're younger but no longer scares you The the thing that always scared me was intimacy No interesting and I've been under bombs. I've been you know, I've had both all kinds of things but Emotional intimacy has always been hard because I didn't experience it growing. Oh, yeah, it's hard. Yeah, that scares me today too Um, I don't know because it all only with men. I'm flying Thank you That's a whole other No, that's a good one. Michelle I have the same question for you. Is there anything that scared you when you were younger But doesn't scare you anymore. Oh, yeah, there are Tons of things, you know the dark the boogeyman all the the the myths and scary things. Um So you don't see you don't see scary films I don't like scary films. I do not I mean the last Yes, I think I saw the exorcist a little too young and I was like, this isn't fun All of that. It's just not not fun. Not fun. Um, the thing that scares me Now maybe I'm flipping the question You know, regular life regular little things failure doesn't scare me. Um, but nowadays it's, um It's it's our our lack of willingness to understand context To understand history and to learn from our history, you know, we we are moving in a direction We were going backward to a time when mistakes were made and things were bad But history taught us that we don't want to go there. We people weren't happier It, you know, we weren't safer things weren't more affordable. You weren't rich suddenly because you know, there were no immigrants you know Giving people a living wage Making sure every person in this world has a stake in the bigger picture Like that keeps us safe, you know making sure people have jobs and they can pay their bills, you know, all of that matters Um, like there was a time of courage. Yeah, you guys lived through a time of Of people really tapping into some courage and especially people who have nothing to lose If you're already rich if you have some kind of grounding if you are old enough to be able to lose Like I wonder What what's missing? That we need inside of ourselves to get us to a place to want to organize and to You know, sort of recapture And I I'm just curious to hear what you think, you know in the 50s My father was part of the committee for the first amendment that was resisting McCarthyism and the red the house on american activities committee. We launched Yes, I launched the committee for the first amendment the minute we went public Oh my god hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people from the entertainment industry signed up I mean, it's it's wild. It's wilder than I expected people are ready. I think Well, that's great. I think I think that's good to hear because that's my fear is like What we didn't have fear about before seems like Will we have the power to do now? Will we have access? You mean yes, exactly. You know like before. Yeah, I remember saying I'll die for my people You know take me that my people, you know being real gangsta in the street and Want to fight, you know be down with the panthers and do everything we can do whatever what can we do? Like you said the lack of fear And now I see at this stage of my life. I'm thinking glad I got my Permit residency in Mexico that you know something You don't want to be the the one to chicken out because you're never with that person, you know Where's it? But this is never like we've ever seen before so I'm thinking Oh, who's gonna really come with it? How can we sneak and win, you know that kind of thing so That's some of my stuff now. I'm thinking about that and in my mind and like how we're up against though. It's so it's dangerous But it's also empty. It's hollow. So it's weak And if we can get solidarity Strengthen numbers and make it look as ridiculous as it really is we win. We just have to do it quickly. Yeah, you have to move fast Yeah, because it's been it's been moved very quickly very quickly Well, and on the the the issue of of aging and the next chapter I I I'm working on the balance of leading but making real space For the next generation of leaders because I also think that We do need to get the next generation Really geared up and ready because these are truly their battles. Um, you know, I have to face like it's it's going to be the world They inherit um, most of us know I think I'm on the the the tangent of having experience the country at not its best Um, I I think I'm of the rare generation where we benefited from all that struggle, but we weren't really in it Yeah, um, but I knew I knew enough in history my grandparents were alive You know, you still knew people who went through it. That was alive Yeah, the the consequences were real and in your face So that's why I think it's important for as you age for us to be intentional about Making room, you know You know, we've got to have a plan in this next chapter To move out of the seats to let the next generation lead and sometimes you have to let them lead Whether we they know all the answers or not, you know, because when are you ready to lead? Like we didn't know we were ready. I mean, we're in the white house. We were in our 40s. We had little kids I mean, I was like, bro. Are you sure you want to do this? You didn't know No, no, no, you never I don't think you ever know that you're ready to lead I think you just have to start doing it. It's the same thing with the letters The same thing to me. It's the same thing with me writing those letters Yeah, the same thing of knowing that I'm getting ready now Even though I believe that I was the one to do it because other people thought I was the only one who could do it You still sit there and you take four out four years before you make that move Because should I this is going to be this is going to be something and you I was so clear about it And I knew I had to believe in the industry in order to do it because if I thought I had to fight I don't know if I would have done it, but I knew how ignorant they were I just knew that I need to educate the whole point you educate people along the way and that that's the thing that was so important Education well, we just all have to get really brave. We have to get all that's right. I I always know your part We've all seen the documentaries the march on the in Selma the bridge the the batons and the dogs South Africa all over the world and probably like me asked what I have been brave enough to do that And we don't have to ask anymore. This is it. This is it right now. We are in our documentary moment. Yeah, and we either Are brave enough or we're gonna lose. Yeah, but I think we're brave enough Did you expect to be still doing this kind of level of activism at this age? Like did you Anything I thought I'd be dead at 30 I thought I had nothing to offer. No, I I just slowly came into But I'm because I'm surrounded by people who've been doing it longer than me and they give me Courage and strength. I'm not alone It makes we we have to not be alone anymore. You know ever since the 80s Individualism has been raised up as the pinnacle. This is what we're going for each person for himself Our democracy won't survive if it's each person for himself. We have to totally smash that We have to start thinking about the public good the public sphere We have to unite across sectors and That's what has to happen. I think generationally something that has changed To answer my question about courage You know, you remind me Jane of That the isolation and the the the focus on individuality that I think is crippling And I think technology Are heavy reliance on social media our phones Um Young people have become content in thinking that they can be happy all on their own No, and it's easy to do that because I guess what it's hard to come out. It's hard to be together I think it's harder for a certain generation to do that now But I think, you know What I've learned in these many years just as you've learned Jane and I know you have too beth Ann is that we We don't do anything on our own That that's not, you know, that individuality isn't a virtue, you know Standing on just on your own and getting getting to a place. I got here on my own That seems like a sad way to get anywhere. Plus they don't even go to movies. Yeah I cannot I can get them to watch a television show, but I cannot get them to watch Yeah, that's very true I really won't even go into a movie theater where you do have a you know feeling of being with others Naturally, they said no, I got it. I got it right here. And I think that For me, I think it helps in my feeling of longevity my Hardiness at this stage in life Is that, you know, whether it's fashion or hair or dyeing my hair a stand in shape or eating, right? It's mostly community. Yes it you know, it's it's it's mostly Having a big broad set of people who I count on that I feel nurtured by And while eight years in the White House were depleting in one way It was also reinforcing because it was eight years of connecting to this country That's a nice note to end on I will say this has been deeply inspiring for me I came in here with totally different expectations and I'm moved it was really special. So thank you for This is really special for me as well. Thank you. Thank you all For taking time out of your lives. I mean, this is one of my dream conversations It really is and it has lived up to every expectation Let me just tell you I when I grow up. I want to be like you both And you as well jenna coming up, baby. You're the baby Absolutely, I'm younger than you I'm calling you the baby I'm with you in that. I really want to say that too. I am so grateful As as you've said being loved whether it be your male friends or your female friends having that Respect and honor from so many is so is it's been like a chariot for me but I think What's important for these conversations is that they're going to be a lot of women of all ages and men too That are going to hear this and it's about sharing and the level of vulnerability that everyone displayed here This is to me. This is like a ministry. Yeah of conversation You know, um, because people will look and say well of these women think this way feel this way have lived this long or growing This way then there's still yeah, there's still I I quote jane often like I said about like even about you you you never feel old if you're not sick if you're you know That's so true though When you start feeling sick and you you fall into that and i'm really grateful for this conversation too because No one thinks to have them. Yeah. Well, thank you all. Thank you. Thank you Well done you got all right to kill it to kill it to kill it You