Comedy, Music, and the Black Church With KevOnStage

yeah health all warriors what is up higher learning is on it's i van latin jr it's me rachel and lindsey we have a guest with us today it is the entire podcast kev on stage i bumped my lip on the mic it's a great day thank you for having me i've been wanting to do this for a long time. And we were just saying before you got on, I can't believe you haven't been on the show. I know. We're fans. I never want to ask. I never want to... Yeah, it's tough. How do you handle no? Ooh. It really depends. No often fuels me. I can be sort of histrionic like Jordan. I can build chips to like, nigga, you gonna tell me no? You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna show you. Other times, it's just be like, you really said no and then other times it's like worst they can say is no like when i was promoting churchy and i was like man i really got to get out there like i i was adopting the like it's already no if you don't ask so if you ask and it's still no you didn't materially change anything but if you ask and it's yes you've actually gained something so that's my latest one is like if you don't ask it's already no anyway so at least ask worst you can do is is it's already known but people don't i found people like i'm not asking a podcast people are rarely like no i don't know who you are and i would not like you on my podcast yeah that don't happen but i think just fear of rejection abandonment from inner child just it sticks with you for a long time no matter how much your life has changed you really kind of gotta retrain your mind because who i am it will be yes more likely right but that fear of no be like i don't want to be embarrassed i think in so many ways we're still the little kids we were in elementary school you don't want to be embarrassed you don't want to be rejected from the cool kids you hope people are like nice and want to do you not want to do you but uh want to have you but uh but that small hint of knowing rejection be enough to be like no i'm good i don't want to i like this conversation because i feel like someone looks at you right and they see everything that you're doing right like you seem like you're touching every single corner of entertainment they will probably think you don't get no's at all anymore, but they don't see all the no's that you got to build what it is that you have. What would you say? Because I get I think about this, too. Like, what's the what's the no you're so glad you got because it turned into something even greater? Man, I think probably the no I'm so glad I got was no, we don't want to make churchy. I think churchy got passed on a lot when I was pitching it prior to making it. And I was like, dang, I don't I really want to make this this as a as I want to make a TV show. I'd already been pitching a different show. And a black executive really gave me some of the best pitching advice ever. I was bombing this pitch. I was pitching me, my brother, my wife, a picture in the show about a funeral home. And she was just like, what? Not rude at all. She was just like, what do you know about funeral homes? And I was like, oh, I don't know. I just think this show will be funny. She was like, but have you worked in one? Like, what makes you uniquely capable of making this show? And I was like, I literally just think it's funny. And she was like, I think your first pitch should be something that is important to you and something you know more than anybody else. Right? So I was like, okay, that was actually really good advice. Shout out to the black executive. Sheila Duckworth is the one who gave me that advice. So I went back and made churchy, like the deck concept pilot, all that type of stuff. Couldn't get it. pitched to, I mean, probably for two years, maybe at least 18 months or probably two years. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And the last no, this executive white dude, he was like, he said the same thing everybody else had been saying, like, we just don't know how middle America is going to feel about it, which is very coded language for like, are white people going to watch the show? If they're not, by and large, we're not going to make it, can't make it. So I was like, all right bet i'm going to save my brand new money i'm going to save my money from spectrum i'm going to save my money from the road i'm just going to make this i'm gonna make eight episodes at this time i had kept on stage studios i'm like i'm gonna make it and i'm making for the app and i'm gonna prove that it works and it was a humongous success for my app specifically but it wasn't enough to like keep the app going we still had all these other issues with i mean the same issues netflix and hbo max have uh burnout people watch all the stuff and turn it off but we don't have the cap. We don't have the capital to compensate for that. Or like we'll make an award as we can make, you know, make sense of it. So long story short, once I made that and made eight episodes of TV, so many doors that were closed were now open because now I'm not pitching you a TV show. I'm asking you to license a show that's already made with proof that an audience likes this. Right. So that door open. And then I also proved to myself I can make it like that was probably the most important thing even more than selling it like just you have made eight episodes of 30 minutes of television you have done that so once i did that i was like literally in the middle of that i was like if i can do a tv show i can do a movie there's actually less work to do a movie because tv is eight episodes 30 minutes that's you know whatever the math is 180 hours uh i mean 180 minutes of content whatever i don't i'm not good at math but a movie is only 90 minutes right so I'm like, it opened my eyes. But then we were able to shout out to Jamal Henderson Spring Hill. We were able to sell Big Guy. World Wide West of Hollywood. He hit me and was like, yo, I watch this on your app. I think we can get this sold. Got it. Licensed to BT. They picked up a second season. Then I redid the same thing with Churchy. I made the hospital for my Patreon. BT ended up licensing it. And then made Safe Space. Tubi ended up licensing it so it's like had i got yes on churchy i probably would be still doing the hollywood like can you make this for me can i pitch this can i do that and nothing wrong with that but i think this path is a lot easier for me because to answer your question about no the one no that's really hard is a creative no on something i know is right and you you know the one thing about networks that i don't like is when they can say no because they bought it and once they pay for it they have the big joker uh up until that point i always had the big joker so in churchy season two they were like the code opens don't make sense cut them out that was a huge one and i was like but no the black people know this it's gonna make sense and they were like nah and i was like this is the wrong choice but they like we went back and forth on it for a good amount of time and it was like it's absolutely no and i i was like yeah we've talked about three things that are really interesting here the first is if you're listening to me and you're you in atlanta you in new orleans you're coming to la you're doing your thing man that pitch is very important yeah i know people who are master pitches you know master pitchers yeah and they get more shit on the air just because in a room i mean and sometimes the shit they get on the air is like not the best but like in a room they can make you see it in a short amount of time boom boom boom boom boom and everybody is I'm like yo man how did you do that like what and then on the back side of it two things one just making something and having made it just nuts I mean I know that I know that sounds stupid but in a place where everybody has an idea yeah having the discipline the resourcefulness to actually have made it and then have something to show someone it just puts you so far ahead of everybody else you have made, I'm going to say something about the pitch I just saw this on Twitter, I was going to make this video Shaka King who made Judas and Black Messiah somebody said the way he pitched that is he told the executives, it's the departed set within the Black Panther Party and I was like, wow I love Judas and Black Messiah, I never made that connection at all, it's not a crime thriller to me, it is the story of Fred Hampton's murder, right? to me uh but a white executive you one of my old agents told me to get a pitch sold unfortunately he like pulled me to the side he was like listen man you're pitching to white people you need to connect your pitch to something they know don't pitch what you want to see what they want to see he said i gotta tell you kev i know you probably don't like this we pitch you as the black jim gaffigan because they don't know who you are but they do know jim And I'm like, God dang it. Wholesome dad. Yeah, that's that's how it hits you. And they're like, we know Jim Gaffigan. OK. Right. Because they're not they are literally not familiar. Right. So that's one thing. But to your point, one of my old executives, man, he said he was the head of NBC drama for like 20 years. And he said he never got in trouble for saying no. You pitch something. He passed on like 24 all kind of great hit shows. He said, I never got reprimanded for saying no to a great show. I got in trouble for saying yes to a failed show. Right. So to protect my job, it's actually better for me to say no, because I can go to my boss and say, this is why I don't think this works, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when I say something works and it doesn't work, that's what gets you can. So if you have made it, that's already there's way less. You got less development fees, pilot season, casting, all that stuff. and if you you can now license it it's it's cheaper for them so now it's like well why shouldn't we once you can get to why shouldn't we boy you're in a totally different leverage position like we might as well throw this up he's already got eight episodes he's got this audience so that's my so far that's been my leverage and i thought it was my detriment oh hallelujah that's a word because before in hollywood like being on socials was like you're not for real you gotta have true hollywood and all that type of stuff. And then lo and behold, now it's like, well, where are your followers? Where's your audience? How are you going to get these people to come and watch? That used to be the network's responsibility to market the show. Like, you got the money. You need to put the commercials and the billboards and set up the daytime television. Now they expect the creator to create it, sometimes make it, and market it. So thank the Lord that what I did to build my own stuff ended up being my superpower when it used to be seen as a negative. Yeah, you were ahead of the game for sure when it comes to that. Speaking of superpowers, I feel like one of your superpowers is that you just have this gift where everybody feels like they know you. No, like even when I first started following you, I just felt like I was like, don't I know him from somewhere? Something feels so familiar about you. And I don't know, I guess maybe it's relatable. It's the way you talk to people. And if they don't know you, they want to know you. and something that you said um when you were just talking about what it is that you do and pitching you talked about fear and it's like again people see what you do they see the success and they might think oh like he's past that he doesn't have that for somebody who's watching because I put up that we were um interviewing you on the podcast I was like finally right and a lot of what people had to say they wanted to know like how did you get past it how did you build your vision And how did you see it and get past that fear in order to create the life that you have? And then, you know, you're going to continue. Yeah, I think for me, it's like. Man, you don't really get rid of the fear. Yeah, like you just do it like you just push past it. And I don't mean to be like super cliche, but it's like I take massive L's all the time. And I'm actually very vocal about them because I want people to know, like, it ain't all sweet out here. I'm taking a massive L in the podcasting space as we speak. Podcasting revenue was crushing. Right. I thought after the pandemic, I was like, I was going to go down. I went up. I was like, oh, this is great. After that, it did what I thought would happen in the pandemic. So I told them, like, there was a deal that was on the table that I was like, OK, we've been again. you know we're gonna have this stuff we're gonna have a high learning we have producers and social cutters and all that type of stuff and we were right there and i was like all right cool we're gonna be able to do this relieve some pressure off of me when i tell you that deal fell apart this was like a month ago i was like oh but guess what i'm like okay i still got these employees to pay for all right i can't let them go or so what can i do right i'm gonna lean more into patreon right I'm going to create some show that's just for my Patreon and I learned from my app when you release shows 10 episodes at a time what people do is they will pay at the beginning to see if they like it then cut it off wait till all 10 episodes are there and then they'll turn it back on on the 10th episode burn through within a weekend and cut it back off right so I'm like okay I know that's going to happen so now I'm going to release this new show on my Patreon once a month so if you want to come in and click on and click off, you're going to pay the $5 every single month or you go miss out. Right. But that comes from no. That comes from I'm not getting the podcast deal that I want. And my greatest superpower is pivoting. I still know I got to get these employees paid for resilient. I'm resilient. I'm just like, OK, that door is closed. How can we get over here? How am I going to get over here? Like I love one of the Wayne's quotes. They said they actually were the most creative when they had no money because they had to figure out how to do it. When you have a lot of money, you can try anything. Sometimes it doesn't push you creatively. But when you don't have the resources, you really got to figure it out. I think even just being poor and black, black people, some of our greatest things have come from black. The way a pig can be eaten and edible is because we didn't have access to everything. The bad parts become the good parts. We wouldn't have oxtail without oppression. Or chitlins. Or chitlins. We learned our lesson with that one. So I think to answer your question, I think you take them lumps and you just don't let it stop you. I use a sports analogy because I love them. Steph Curry, greatest shooter of all time. He does miss baskets still every single game. He does not win every single game. But you don't need to make every single basket to be the greatest. You don't need to make every single basket win every game. You don't need to make every single basket to win the championship. But I think people be so afraid to even shoot. Then they be like, well, I'm not going to do nothing. Well, then you're going to lose for sure. And you can't be nothing. So for me, I just won't stop because like in the back of my mind, if I give up, I'm going back to Boeing, going back to the bank. And I'm like, well, that I can't do. Right. I know that I'll do whatever I can to at least stay here or even I can't stay in L.A. I'll be like, well, I'm moving to South Carolina. I'll move to Mississippi, lower my cost of living. I'll do a lot of stuff to make it happen. Like it's going to be hard to shut me up. Yeah, Mississippi. I'm going to Jackson Jackson is a great I don't mean this to me negatively I mean like Jackson Mississippi I had we went to a show there I hadn't been in Jackson in a long time we went to a show there when I tell you the people in Jackson was like the most lit audience we had all tour they was nice in the hotels I'll go live in Jackson I'll go to Jackson State Games you know maybe you know never mind we used to travel from you know sometimes it would be in baton rouge and sometimes it would be at jackson state we'd go up to jackson the weekend in jackson that we would have would be fire they weren't checking ids fire i love that city jackson mississippi all right with me yeah i love that city let me ask you this um i always so much so much of the stuff that you do is based in your connection to the church yeah so much of your uh identity is based in the church what evidence do you have that god has a sense of humor that god likes to laugh platypus like my favorite animal come on man favorite animal you mean to tell me you were being dead serious when you made the platypus like giraffes you playing man you was like what if i made one with just like a really long neck like that's late in the game for you being funny when you're making giraffe it's not a necessary animal you feel me so it's like and even like finding humor in tragedy like i'm doing this grief sucks thing and it's like humor especially for black people humor sometimes is all we have like sometimes the things be so racist you got to laugh google ai see more on niggas i say that's funny. He did it. He did it last podcast. He laughed. It's funny, man. It's funny. It's funny again. Because we can't just be mad all the time. We can't be mad all the time. So I think that between platypuses, platypi, giraffes, and see moron niggers, Google AI. The thing be so blatant, you be like, God, dog, y'all. Y'all not even trying no more. They're not trying to hide it. Somebody hit me up on Twitter and they go they said Van you know we've heard so many stories about your dad we've heard so much about your dad I always like when you talk about your dad it would be awesome if you could you know put your dad on the podcast so we could see him on the podcast and I was like and I responded I went it would be tough to get him on it would be tough did you explain further why nope nope I let the people who got the joke get the joke I was like that's going to be a tough because that to me is to me the fact that that person asked that question not knowing I could have been like oh man my dad died and all that but the fact that that person that's funny to me they didn't know what they was doing that's very funny to me that's what I'm talking about sometimes it feels like though where we are right now we are uncomfortable with uncomfortable laughter. It used to be that we were way too comfortable laughing at things that maybe we shouldn't have been laughing at. We did the Best Black Shows draft on the Midnight Boys and I talked a lot about it in Living Color. I told people to go back and watch it in Living Color. Then I said, now, when you watch it, when you watch it, I want you guys to understand it's 1991. At that time, we all knew that there were things you weren't supposed to laugh at. Yeah. Now I feel like we're having a conversation about whether or not we should find certain things funny. For sure. How does that like land with you as a comedian? I think comedy, good comedians, right? Because here's the truth. I've never said this quite like this, but I want to say this. good comedians want to find the line. Sometimes I feel like lazy comedians just want to be offensive and crude. And that has its place. Shock jobs. You just say the thing, you know, we bring them back these words. We stop saying that that to me is not good comedy. Shock comedy can get laughs. The way a fart joke is funny. But after a while, you're like, all right, man, fart jokes like farting is funny to me. But it's like, OK, you know, there's a limit to it. Right. So I think to answer your question is comedy is always should be or the funnest when it's relevant to the time period. Right. So in Living Color, plus the Wayne sense of humor, plus no holds barred, home of the clown. They was making fun of disabled people. Nobody was was there because they were wild. That was also if you think about wrestling at the same time, that was America. That comedy could be that wrestling was that wrestling is kind of always reflective of society. I learned this in the documentary. They went crazy with women in the late 2000s. It was like super sexy. America, sexy girls gone wild was also on TV. It was like comedies like that. What the Internet has done is as a comedian prior to the Internet. And I mean, I've always kind of been on the Internet, but not in the way where somebody would post your being and post it on Twitter could go viral. You would realize, yo, this joke can't really hit no more. I think it's kind of offensive. You would just take it out of your set. That's all you had to do was remove it from your set because of the Internet. and access to stuff, you can go back to a time where it's like, well, yeah, man, I wouldn't really, I wouldn't say that joke no more. But you said it then was like, Bernie Mac's a great example. When I saw Kings of Comedy, Bernie Mac set was not problematic to me at all. I just thought it was purely hilarious. When I go back and watch it now, I'm just like, ooh, that's crazy. I don't think Bernie, I can't speak for him, but I don't imagine he would perform that set. Actually, let me say it this way if he performed that set the exact same way today it would be received very differently any good comedian will be like oh yo this ain't really getting to laugh the same way i i should adjust this take this even if it's true like i i believe that story was true about his his uh nieces and nephews and stuff but in true-ish yeah yeah he he talks about the fact that that existed but he took some license for sure for sure yeah i i mean like those were really his nephews and he took creative liberties to make it more funny yeah but that would not be received the same way so as a good comedian he probably would either take it out or adjust it to how time is you know and for me there's some jokes that i've made early in my career or early in my internet career that i'm like oh this ain't funny i went through in private videos deleted tweets like because i know if you go i can find those and bring it to today's lens it's no longer funny but I know that because I stopped making that type of joke or I don't even do that type of thing. Or like even roasting. Right. All deaf. Roasting was a huge part of our brand. Still is today. There are jokes that are allowed on a roast because everybody understands on a roast. I can say stuff that I couldn't say in a regular setting. But what was happening at all deaf roasting culture became part of who we were as people outside of that. So then we just was roasting everybody. Then out of context and out of the context of roasting, people are like, yo, that's just kind of actually offensive. and I'm like oh yeah you see that but all my followers at that time were all all deaf fans so I felt like they understood I still had to go back and clean up some stuff like that but to answer your question in a more succinct way I think a good comedian should always be knowing the pulse of society and their audience and how people think like punching down wasn't a term that I knew of when I first started comedy like you just were trying to be funny now I know what punching down is so I try to be as funny to as many people as possible without sacrificing myself. And sometimes that means I don't say this joke. That's not going to go over. That's not going to go funny. If you say you protect black women and the sketches you write don't reflect that people are going to call you out on it. And sometimes you've got to be checked. You know what I'm saying? I think that's part of being in community with people is sometimes like, oh, yo, Kev, you was tripping on that. Oh, that's my battle, Van. You was tripping on that. Or Rachel, you was tripping on that. And if we respect each other, then we'll listen to that. But we're just like, no, no, it's funny. Y'all just hard. I mean, y'all just sensitive. Like, should anybody be protected in comedy? Absolutely. I think people are always protected. I think people choose who they protect and they choose who they go after. Like, so black people are often it's easy to come at us. Right. Because we're unprotected overall. I think it also it also depends. Like, sometimes people just want to see a crude comedian be crude. that's that's your choice as an artist you have the choice to make whatever art you make but you don't have the choice to be absolved of the consequences of that art you know i'm saying so i know i protect black women it's my goal to protect black women in comedy i don't just throw them out there i'm i'm considerate how it makes them feel or look on screen and things and even representation like in my shows i'm making sure that you know i'm literally looking at the cast and making sure there's deep brown skin women. There's fat black women. And I mean, I'm fat. My homegirls, we be fat. Everybody be fat in my actual circle. Not just like casting people. I'm talking about my actual friends from high school, from church. So I want my shows to be reflective of how my life is. You know, that's important to me. That's not important to Hollywood. It's like love is blind. You rarely see fat, unattractive or unattractive people. on those shows. It's like, yeah, can you find love? We're not, we're trying to find the most beautiful people and, you know, maybe there's a person or two that's not objectively beautiful, but for the most part, it's not really love is blind because as soon as people see each other, they'll be like, hey, man, you sounded different and I'm not attracted to you. I'm out. You know what I'm saying? You should do a dating show. My wife actually did one, Love on Stage, for our app, and actually one of the couples had got married and had kids Robert and Bria my wife put together and so to that point we actually she had good messy drama on tape and she was just like that's not who I am and that's not the type of show I want to make if she had a producer at Bravo or E what is you talking about I mean it was gold but her actual goal her actual goal is to help people find love not under the guise to finding love to make good tv because i think most of those shows are just like here's how we draw you we really just want to make good tv oh yeah yeah so so um i i think the fact that there's a married couple right now who has children because of the show melissa created is proof that if you want to stick to what you want to do you can yeah um or you can take the thing and make good tv if you would have a good TV, it probably would have been much bigger of a show. But, you know, that ain't what you, that wasn't what we was trying to do. That's the power of, yeah, owning it and having, being in charge of the creative. Yes, for sure. Because the network would have been like, girl, you tripping. I'm so sorry that's on TV. Absolutely. She would have lost that control. I'm curious because I just, even just hearing you explain Van's question about who's off limits or however he posed it, how do you decide when to not post about stuff that's politically charged or went to? And do you get pressure from your audience to be like, why haven't you said anything on this? That's a great question. I do get pressure. My, what I've come around to is I very rarely talk about political discourse on short form media, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, because it's so much, the conversations are so much bigger than three minute segments allow you for. If you want to hear me talk about political topics, topics, it's almost always on my podcast. Here's the thing with Angel. Because 30 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half, it allows you to have time for the nuance, for the context that is necessary. I think the most recent thing that I was talking about, just talked about the BAFTAs, but there was something else that happened before that. Ice. Ice. I was talking about ice, and somebody was like, it's actually a breath of fresh air for you to speak up, because I don't see you speaking up about political discourse that often. and so many people my comments were like oh you got to watch this podcast and i've said it on the podcast but i don't i haven't made a video it's like if you want to hear me talk about political stuff go to my podcast i just seen so often you try to make something that's a big thing condense it for a short form video and you don't have enough time to make all the points you need to make so then it gets picked apart people trim your one thought and and reframe it on twitter with totally different context and most people take a tweet as framed they don't go and look for the longer video yeah if you frame it and you and the video supports it did not happen me and angel this happened to us on documentaries three times what we talk about on podcasts has been added to somebody's documentary we had no idea one time it was a lizzo thing and i was talking about how twitter was talking about lizzo and i was reading tweets and the way they edited my words it made It seemed like I was going. That was like, y'all trimmed the pre thing and the post thing for black issues. I'm I'm almost always speaking up publicly on podcasts and on short form for other issues that have more nuance. I almost do it on podcast. I don't speak about things if I don't have enough information to make a public statement. I think sometimes people want you to talk like I'm not just going to talk just to talk because I don't want to say something. incorrect without having a lot of knowledge. Israel, Palestine, for example, that was a new thing for me. I didn't understand the history of it, but I made the example. I was talking to my kids about this because we always check in with them and see how they feel about the way of the world. And I was asking them the very beginning of that conflict. I was like, what do y'all think about Israel and Palestine? Like, what are y'all hearing in schools? And my son, My oldest son was like I don know much but if one of them has the power to turn off the Wi for the other people I feel like that person probably has the power and is in the wrong That's what he in his mind. He was like, if they're controlling the food and the Wi-Fi, the other people don't seem it doesn't seem to be balanced. Right. So I just thought that was such an interesting thing from his lens. But I didn't talk about that. You know why he knows that? Because you control the food. he knows in the situation with you like he's a kid he hasn't been told that like all of this other stuff he knows that you control the food and the wi-fi so if he in the back and forth with you it's probably not fair but that's a really good point right yeah so before i speak i want to know and also i don't rush to be first on hot button topics i think that's the biggest mistake you can make is rush to be first because you don't even have the information often and the bath is the most recent example it was uh somebody yelled a racial slur at michael b at michael b jordan so sometimes as an internet content creator first is best but then it was like oh actually that person had tourette's so i was like oh because the first time i saw that tourette's was not a really yeah the first time i saw it on twitter some i thought somebody just broke in or somebody there just yelled it and then it was that he had Tourette's and then it was like well they had told him about Tourette's and then it was like the Baptist was pre-recorded and they could have edited it out and then it was like they actually edited out a free Palestine thing then it was actually edited out 10 things so now it's like well then if you let that in then it feels like that's on purpose and then he's like I they put a mic in front of me why would you do that if I was ticking so if I would have made that from the first moment I saw that which I do often I would have had to make 10 revisions versus just waiting to hear. And now I actually shout out to Instagram. This one sign that I got them was great. They showed me so many black people with Tourette's thoughts on this. I was able to listen to people who had way more insight on a subject than I do. And I was like, okay, black women with Tourette's black men with Tourette's black women with Coporelia. I can't pronounce it correctly. Let me listen to y'all because you understand this in a way that I don't. And let me help that inform my decision. and then I talked about it on my podcast, but I spent two or three days researching it because I know my audience wants to hear about it. But to rest, it's not a thing that I'm familiar with. I actually don't know how it works. I don't know if you are racist or your brain. They were telling me whatever your brain thinks not to say, the condition makes you want to say. So I'm like, okay, maybe he's not racist. Then it was like, should he apologize? The whole movie is about apologizing. And then he said, F the queen. But then he apologized to the queen. And also, I just think the internet now doesn't allow for nuance everything's black or white the album's classic or trash instantly and it's like there's some of my favorite albums still have skips in them does it make it not a classic if i skip four or seven and nine to me it's still a classic you know three songs it's a classic three three songs how many songs on album if it's a 12 song album for me i can skip three songs i will agree i will agree with that yes so on a 12 song album you can skip three songs that is what like a quarter a quarter of the album yeah okay that's passing grade okay passing grade is different than classic yeah but I think I'm trying to think but I would I would agree with you I think for every classic with three skips okay I'm a big gospel person Tone's out the box album is a classic to me I skipped all kind of songs why can't he do that why can't he do that but I don't know Tone I don't know you know who I know Ian's cousin I know the staples I know the songs I can't listen to gospel because I'm not trying to drive around crying it's not all like that the music makes me cry there's a beat I go and listen what gospel are you listening to this song when I hear the records when I hear the records even shackles kind of makes me want to cry a little bit that's just you man i'm about to cry right now it's about dancing because you're so happy about god i'll be afraid yeah it's like you gotta let them fill it out man don't run from that i look at mary mary and i'm like look at how happy they are i wish i could be that happy even that song is just difficult don't i think it's difficult for you but but okay okay so tona actually have heard of tona my friend is a gigantic ian vaughn is a gigantic uh a gospel guy his whole family gospel people there's somebody in their family who's actually a big gospel person yeah but anyway so but i don't know that i don't okay you mean like a hip-hop album some hip-hop i see man i i don't want i don't want the blacks to be upset with me i'm not a hip-hop guy in the way that people often are oh okay okay because i and i want can i look can i make this yeah yeah in my family you could not listen to anything that wasn't gospel i didn't have money to buy albums like that till i was like 15 the first hip-hop album i bought was the rough riders compilation album and that's a good one right there i was right there that's my money i bought the rough riders compilation album my brother had an outcast album so i only had what my brother had or what was available on radio tv that i could hear with my friends at school i couldn't get i got caught with the tlc um creep album my dad took it and threw my whole walkman away because i was listening to red light special this is a safe space you're like you're more like me because i told the story how i it was a very proud moment for me i took all my cd my country cds my country music cds i took them to the cd store and traded them in when i was 15 for like uh um i cash uh oh my gosh not what is uh hot boys hot boys i could not think of the name of the hot boys rough riders my parents caught my sister with um all about the benjamins that threw everything out they hit them in a closet then we found them threw everything out i'm with you on that so all So whatever you got to name, it could be okay. BT, 106 and Park, TRL. So I know pretty much everything that was on the radio, on TV, music videos. But if you like Jay-Z Black Album, Blueprint, my brother in Christ. Oh, I did buy the Blueprint. I'm sorry. The Blueprint, I could skip three on there. And I think that's the classic. What are the skips on the Blueprint? Never change, even though I do like it. I do like it because it's David Ruffin. I do like it because it's David Ruffin, but I will probably skip that. On a re-listen, I will probably skip that. It's still a classic. It's David Ruffin. I love David Ruffin. I didn't say I didn't like it. I didn't say I didn't like it. I said I'll skip it. If I'm listening to it, I'm skipping it. It doesn't have to be a bad song for me to skip it. I'm just skipping it. If I put it on right now, I'm like, that's not really what I feel like hearing right now. You know what? Okay, on Watch the Throne. Listen, black people, I love you. I love you. Love Watch the Throne. probably got three skips probably a classic album to me i skip otis i don't like oh this is a fantastic record but i can see i'm not doing outrage with you guys anymore yeah there's a beyonce song the beyonce oh not a beyonce there's a the one she sings the hook on great song i'd be skipping it i don't know that wash the throne is a classic though to me i don't yeah it might be i don't know that wash the throne is a classic okay here's a good here's a fun fact right the amount of albums I have is so small my classics are Coloring Book Good Kid Mad City Wash the Throne most black people who are hip hop fans they got 30-40 years of gospel albums classics, trash, all that type of stuff but hip hop I didn't consume that much so Wash the Throne is like yo this is a great album I love it, I listened to it for years Good Kid Mad City is no skips for me but I just don't have it. So I don't be trying to be something I'm not. I can talk to you about the singles, the music video stuff, the radio hits, but you talking about Reasonable Doubt, What's Track 4, My Brother in Christ, I don't know. Okay, so then I'm so with you. I've heard enough gospel to know the gospel standards and to know the songs that like, I used to have this friend named Tremaine and Yolanda Adams had, what was the record that beautiful sister has, the one that her big one the battle is not yours no no no no what's the the one that it she had one am i not thinking of like the right yolanda adams sing a little bit yolanda adams is the gospel yeah but i'm thinking that she had the song uh my homeboy tremaine used to play this song um the open my heart open my open my heart so he used to play so whenever tremaine tremaine was trying to change his life so whenever tremaine would get into a situation where he would like where it was about to happen he would go to the car and play open my heart like right away fair so i never forget which was my sister just like always triggers people yeah she always likes to push people and trigger people and she had one time said no no more tremaine in my house no more tremaine no more him no more Tremaine period and so he calls me up and he goes and this is me this is me being who I am he calls me up and he goes where you at I'm like I'm at Ebony House and he was like can I come through and I was like yeah I was like yeah come through bro they over here smoking you know they're big into illegal illicit drugs I don't want to offend y'all but like yeah they're smoking he comes over he got he done stopped and got chips he stopped and got chips he got drink is cool he think him and ebony about that and she goes she goes she goes uh-uh out she's like you can leave all that if you want out and then i'm looking at him and we with me and ryan laughing the whole night out he look at me he look at her he closes the door this is a movie scene all you hear when he's driving away it's open my heart he's literally driving away and it's loud because he got speakers in his teeth all you hear when he and me and when me and ryan hear that we dying on the floor dying on the floor laughing but i want your top five i want your top five gospel artists of all time gospel artists yeah far and away number one for me kirk franklin number one number one all time all time kirk franklin is the only gospel artist to me that has been relevant in multiple decades he has never really lost relevancy from early 90s that's true uh we got a lot in common yeah kirk franklin probably number one to me number two uh john p key oh such a good one John P. Key, New Life Community. He just did a tiny desk. He just did a tiny desk. Great tiny desk for legacy artists as well. Legacy artists, give me your legacy track. I was so proud when I saw that. I said, whose idea was this genius? Give me five of your legacy songs. Show them a new song. But please don't do seven of these songs. Yeah. Fred Hammond, legendary, legendary, legendary gospel artist for me, Kevin. Okay. Number four, Mary Mary. Okay. Mary Mary to me changed gospel music in a way that few artists can claim to have changed gospel music. They, along with Kirk, were probably the most visibly successful people to incorporate elements of hip hop and R&B into gospel music in a way that crossed over. And their music was played in non gospel areas like that. And the fifth one is the Clark sisters who also did that same thing years prior. The Clark sisters also, man, they paved the way for so much stuff of gospel music. Their mom, Maddie Moss Clark, just choir harmonies and their gospel tree, their family tree, J. Moss, Kiara Clark Shear, J.D. Drew, obviously the Clark sisters. Twinkie Clark alone should be heralded in the same way that Quincy Jones is when it comes to music, period. Not gospel music. Her arrangements, her songwriting, her musical ability, her on the organ. She should be compared to the Quincy Joneses of the world and not just gospel music. So those that would be my top five. Wow. What are you like right now? Who's new? I feel like I don't listen to new gospel. No, this is where I'm going to get in trouble. Okay, you don't either? You don't like it. It's not that I don't like it. It's not even like old head. I feel like the world has changed in a way in my life and in the way of discovery. Okay. When I grew up, it was only gospel in the house. There was gospel radio. That was the only thing that my family played in the cars. I played instruments for the choir. So we're always learning the new music. Right. gospel in churches now is being sung less and what we call ccm or contemporary christian music is being sung more yeah the black church choir doesn't sing in church like they did when i was a kid it's mostly worship team praise team and it's a lot of ccm you know music is what's sung in churches, I don't connect with that the same way I connected to gospel. Probably the most recent artist that I have is not even new. Jonathan Reynolds, I love his music. Travis, I'm about to say Travis Kelsey because I just watched a video about him in the vacation thing, which is repost work by the way. Repost work. It went viral again. Bring it back. You brought it back. It worked again. Sometimes I look at people and say, if you got a big video, bring it back. 1,000%. When something happened with Patrick Mahomes, I reposted Angel that fried chicken. Fried chicken. Reposted that thing. It went viral like it did the first time. Travis Green is who I was thinking of. But they're not new. I'm so sorry, gospel people. Red Hands Band. They're from Ohio. I believe Ohio. Red Hands Band is probably the most new gospel artist. And they're just like almost a neo soul meets gospel meets snarky puppy. and that was probably the newest artist that I hadn't heard of when I tweeted once put me on somebody's money for me on a red hands band and that was probably it but I'm I'm not as tapped in as I used to be in gospel and I feel like gospel unfortunately unlike I don't even know if unlike it hasn't turned over really since I'd say Ty Tribbett was the last person that was like bringing some he was also kind of neo so kind of like that philly atlantic city vibe he brought that to gospel in an interesting way uh jonathan mcrenynolds again he was like cool guitar gospel but not ccm uh but outside of that i i'm sorry y'all i ain't been i'd be listening to old stuff i become that old nigga who's like 90s rb is as good as it gets to me swv man ain't no Olivia Dean in this house, even though there's plenty of Olivia Dean in this house. There's so much Olivia Dean in this house. I love that you, SWB. It's funny that you bring up R&B. So we, Atlanta has all of these new geniuses that are doing their thing. I love what's coming out of Atlanta right now. We hung out with Deontay Kyle. Love him! The man. The man! Have fun. We made some culture in Rachel's crib. Rachel didn't even know Deontay was coming over. Really? Popped up. He just, door opens, They come through. And I was like. Big cat ice cup. Big cat. I mean, I know who they are from their podcast. But I was like, who told them to come to the house? This is Tremaine. He did it with Tremaine. I told them to come to the house. I was like, how is Tremaine? Because Rachel put my mom to work. Rachel made my mother cook gumbo. And you're welcome. I asked if she could make gumbo. My mother's on her vacation. And Rachel made her cook gumbo. I said, this is not too much. You gotcha. All right. So then. They didn't really look too much. He loved that. Oh, I guess I could throw something together. She had a great time. It turned into a whole thing. Okay, yeah. She went to sleep. But Deontay Big Cat was in town, all jokes aside. Like, asked him to come over. Love that guy. Fantastic, amazing brain, ridiculously good energy. But FD Signifier as well, who I'm also tapped in with now, just did a video. And in this Tyler Perry video, which everyone should go watch, he talks about, just as an aside, he talks about something that I hadn't thought. when I thought about the fact that R&B as a music is sort of dwindling or redefining itself you always think about the fact that hip hop sort of supplanted R&B and more people that can sing now want to be rappers that can sing rather than singers that can sing but after you said something else black church the erosion of the black church The erosion of music programs in the black church means that the gospel is no longer the church is in a conservatory. The black church was the greatest conservatory for not just music, public speakers, comedians, rappers. I honed my skills in church. The first skit I ever did was me and my brother playing David and Goliath in church. It was called PYPU, Pentecostal Young People's Union. I never knew what the youth stood for. And we had basically had talent shows at church. Me and my brother wrote skits. I'm going to be he's going to be I was Goliath, even though he was bigger than me. And we took it so serious and so funny that you were asking, like, how I create some version of that. And MC Hammer was the most popular at this time. It's like ninety two, ninety three, maybe. And I was Goliath. And I was like, can't touch this in church. And all the kids was like, oh, like I was always marrying hip hop in church, culture in church as a kid. And that's still the same thing I do today. But to answer your question, Fred Hammond was talking about how he used to steal from boys to men and Jodeci and and they used to steal from him. And R&B artists used to steal from the Clark sisters and the black church. So many musicians were just sight reading. You can get up here on the organ and you can play. no no no no music no formal lessons you just sit in that church you watching him play the organ you good most good organist start off as good drummers then you graduate to the organ you sing you get a chance to direct we and i was just thinking about this because my kids don't go to church nearly like i went to barely at all honestly because i'd be on the road so much we missed it but also black church doesn't happen as much as it used to happen across the board when I grew up in El Paso, no funny stuff. We're in church five of seven days a week. The only church we didn't the only day we didn't go to church consistently was Monday and Thursday. We had Bible study on, you know, evangelist school service on Tuesday, Bible study on Thursday, choir rehearsal on Friday, junior choir rehearsal on Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday school, Sunday service, sometimes three thirty service and night service. For the first 30 years of my life, I only missed Sunday morning church three times in 30 years. in 30 years. One was, I used to say the joke, one was the Sunday I was born, even though it's not true. One was Y2K that week. We had just moved to Washington. My dad was like, I don't know, y'all. I was just, we in a new city, like we ain't going after Sunday. That was watch night service. I don't think it was even on Sunday, but that was a big service that we missed. But now in LA, at least most churches, the church we go to just has Sunday morning service and maybe Bible study two times. And for a long time, they didn't have Bible study. So church just doesn't exist. And it's for sure not the linchpin of black culture the way it used to be. Civil rights movement. You see Martin Luther King in there. You see all these historical figures in there. Politicians used to have to come to the church to speak. Remember, even Obama, the Jeremiah Wright being. That was what his first campaign. Oh, oh, hey, you you don't have to go to a black church to reach black people. If you're a politician today, when the next presidential cycle runs out, you have a better chance of getting black people going on a black podcast than you go to a black. Then you are to like go to, say, E. Dewey Smith's church or Jamal Bryant's church or Mike Todd's church. Like, it's just not the same cultural linchpin it used to be. And that shows its place in music, in public speaking, comedy and arts. Black people just aren't honing their skills in the church the way they used to, because the church was low key. You could if you could get them going in church, you can get them going on stage. That's why Jodeci's their dad, Devante and Dalvin. I went to their dad's church in Charlotte. These are church boys. If you can get people going and make them feel the spirit, that same skill translates to get an audience going. You got to get a church is cold at the beginning. Right. You just come and sit down just like a comedy club. If Joe to see as kids, Casey was a Casey Haley and the Haley singers. He was like a part of a quartet group at first. You got to warm that audience up with your charisma, your skill and singing ability. Same thing you got to do in a club, theater arena. The first note, you got to get them going. So we ain't doing that as much. And I think we're not as wowed by the performances as much because people haven't honed that skill. And also with the whole like straight to festivals, you ain't built them. You ain't built the skill yet. Usually was honing the church. And then you go out on the road and you hone it again in small clubs. Now you have a hit song. You go straight to Coachella or whatever big festival. You ain't got to work your way up necessarily if you have the biggest song. Whereas like you watch a new edition movie. It was like they was in that garage for two years practicing. Y'all don't even have a show. Y'all in here learning in a hot garage two years straight. By the time y'all have a show, you already ready. That's that care isn't there. And the money is not in the record industry. So they ain't spending the money developing artists as much as they used to either. Do you miss that kind of church? Oh, my God. Because I didn't go to church five days a week, but I I it resonates with me. Some of the stuff that you're saying. And as much as I used to complain about it, I'm just wondering, do you miss? because I think what's interesting too about, we're talking about the music side of it, but there's a togetherness that we all kind of understood having to grow up in church like that. Certain jokes that are made, certain traditions, the way we do it, it's like, oh, that all came from it. It was a monoculture. Do you miss that? 1,000%. I think it was such a big part of my life. I also complain. As a kid, you don't want to do that. Sure. You just don't really have a choice as a black poor kid or even a black kid growing up at the time we did. You don't have a choice about much. What you mean, what you want for dinner? That's not a question you are asked. Rice-a-roni, nigga. Rice-a-roni. Yes. Third day in a row. Spaghetti tomorrow. Spaghetti through Saturday. This is dinner. This is church. Get up, get dressed. I remember I used to spend the night in my friend's house. You can spend the night. We'll pick you up from church. They come spend the night here. They're going to our church. Make sure they don't honor some clothes. I do miss it. And I also miss the like same way I miss Blockbuster. Like not only do I miss Blockbuster, I miss the way life felt when Blockbuster was a big part of life. Like I now have access to every movie it feels like. But there was something special about going to Blockbuster and hoping the Terminator 2 was still there when you got a chance to get there or waiting. because we couldn't watch movies when they came out. When we see them trailers, we'd be like, ooh, this is cool. In nine months, when that comes to Blockbuster, I can't wait. Or the dollar movie. We didn't get to go see the movies in theaters. And because of social media, it didn't really get spoiled like that. So I was used to waiting. Whereas now, you know, this movie's coming out and by the middle part of that movie on Thursday, it's going to be available on Paramount Plus streaming right now. So I think there was a certain, we don't have access to everything. so this what we have feels like everything yeah and i feel like my friends was in church i met melissa uh in high school i ended up going to her church just so i could see her more that's how you have the date like i'm gonna go to your church that's where church kids used to be like you gonna be at a teen night yeah you're going to lock it had all kinds of people getting they begged me to come to one i went to that bitch and then after that i was like i'm not missing one of these they's like van you really should come to the i'm like why would i go spend the night at christian life academy like what like i'm not gonna go spend the night and my homeboy's like van you don't want to come to the lock in all kind of stuff we did the whole joint and the the people the youth pass was like all right well peace guys and i was like like they fed us the peace and they was gone it's like we played dodgeball it was out i was like oh it's us there's all type of sin happening at the lock-in so yeah I definitely miss it and when I go to church I go to California Worship Center which is Mary Mary's Erica Campbell and Warren Campbell's church Warren B. Boxing, Warren B. Coming to Philz does he? Warren good boxing he is the best pastor for a person like me because he gets it he used to be a producer for Death Row and his dad was like, hey man, you're a musician. This is your job. You love God and serve Christ and come to church but you make music for a living. If you've got to sell a beat to Sugar Knight, my brother, you sell a beat to Sugar Knight. If you're on the road with Brandy and for a creative Kanye, it just continues to go like legitimately one of the greatest unsung musicals you've ever had. I say this all the time and I often get flack for it. Your gift doesn't have to only be for the church. it can be for the church but it doesn't have to only be for the church i like comedy i don't i never wanted to just be in churches doing comedy only right because of some stuff that's taboo like i can't make that joke i can't say nigga in church i respect a pulpit but now i i still go back and do jokes there and still go to church but i don't uh desecrate it in that way right at least to me some people still feel that way but um when i go to their church they still have that feeling erica Tina often sings their youngest sister Sante they have that old black version of church that makes me feel at home but at the same time their music is also relevant and modern you know what I'm saying so I do miss it but you know I miss a lot of things that I had when I was a kid you know what I'm saying I miss riding bikes with my friends and stuff but things don't ride bikes don't know it's interesting I think that we a lot of times when we talk about like blockbuster and these things and going to the movies and going here and doing this we're talking about how we connect to ritual how people connect to ritual and what it means to do something as a human being like it's like a reward structure it's a way that it used to the dopamine used to come in a different way and now I feel like we're scraping the upper limit of the internet a couple of days ago I tried to go watch the Mac can't find a Mac yeah not gonna work all of the stuff that I'm that I'm getting from the internet, I got to be able to watch the Mac whenever I want to watch it. Because with everything else that's happening on the internet, I can't go to the internet and not be able to find the Mac. Because there's no more Blockbuster. The movie theaters is fucked up. All of this stuff. I need the Mac now. Okay? So I think we're starting to wonder if everything that we gave up is actually, if the internet is actually worth it. Because the internet is starting to reach a level to where all of this stuff is scraping against the ceiling and now AI has to create a new sort of god for the internet and all of that. I just thought that was interesting. I want to ask you about something else specifically about the church Okay You just made this really cogent and interesting analysis about everything that we got from the church And sometimes when I'm in criticism of the church, which I am quite often, I don't think about those things. I don't think about the cultural things that we harvested from the church. Yeah. A lot of people think about the things that the church harvests from us. Yeah. money, influence, power, all of that stuff. And I think now the Drewski skit, other things, because we're not in the church like we used to be, and because almost everything is up for analysis and over analysis, we're asking questions about whether or not the church is worth it, whether or not we are actually getting a return on our investment for what we've put into the black church and whether or not the structures of the church are serving the black community, communities writ large, the way that they should. One, what do you think about the conversation? And two, what case do you make for the importance of the black church today? Great question. I'm going to make a parallel between the black church and black parents raising kids in poverty, specifically so it can be relevant to my life. I grew up with not a lot discipline, getting whoops, getting whooped, can't ask questions. Whereas I don't raise my kids that way. Right. That same way. I both can appreciate and understand what my parents did try to do with their knowledge and also recognize they got it wrong in X, Y, Z way. Right. But I also understand that they didn't necessarily mean harm and they didn't know no better. David so put me onto this idea that poor parents, not just black parents, poor parents often ruled with fear because they didn't have time to discipline any other way. I can't explain to you why you can't do X, Y and Z. Don't touch it because I got to go to work. I can't be with you. You're going to walk home from school. Get that key in that house. Don't answer the door. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do that. Shut up. Don't question me because I said so, because I got to go to work. Not because I don't love you, not because I don't I don't have literally don't have the time to discipline you any different way. And I think the church has done a lot of harm in some ways, irreputable harm, irrefutable harm, whichever word was correct there. And I think it's the same way our parents did a lot of harm. It doesn't mean they were all harmed, though, and it doesn't mean they at the same time, just because you didn't mean to do something, It doesn't, you know, remove you from the harm you cause. Right. I get in trouble all the time for talking about the black church was homophobic. Right. Black Christians hate when I say that. But it is true. I was taught to be homophobic sitting in church five times a week. That was what was taught to me. I'm so sorry. It was taught to me. I had to unlearn that because it's important to me that I am welcoming and inclusive of all black people. That includes queer black people. It includes trans black people. If you black people, you black with us. It is my goal that you can come sit with us. I was not taught that. And it was reinforced from my family. I was taught nobody's born gay. Even if you are, you're born in the sin, you can get born again. OK, if you are gay, you were molested. That that's not the only way people can be gay. I learned I had to learn that later in life. I was not taught that. And I realized as an adult and it wasn't even the church that changed. It wasn't my parents. It was the birth of my son was the first time I had a thought that was like when I held my son, who is 19. it was the first time I had a contrary thought to something that had been taught to me I was holding my son and I was like yeah I don't really care if this boy is gay or straight this is my son I'm not gonna because at that time I started hearing people like my parents didn't they kicked me out for being gay start to hear these things right on TV movie internet I'm like damn that's crazy and when I was holding him I was like I'm so sorry that won't be my thing but I didn't say nothing at that time because I was like I want to go against my pastor i don't want to upset my family members and stuff it's like so funny to me in my actual family there are gay people in my family just be like we don't really talk about that auntie what you mean yeah she's been gay since the 70s yeah what do you mean this is our family member like in my family trans family members we we just like yeah i don't see this a grotesque truths. Yes. We just looking at it and we just like, there's no book there. I just put it down. What you mean? So for me, I was just like, I'm sorry, I'm not going. And it's okay if you disagree with me. You can't whoop me. And the other thing, I remember I was getting taken to task by the gay community in the pandemic. And I was listening. Because I was getting I mean, I was getting obliterated on Twitter. I was doing this thing called Theological Thursdays. During the pandemic, we was all creating. And I was a very curious person. I was talking. I used to do a show called Aska. And I had done Ask a Black Guy, Ask a Transperson, all kind of stuff. And because I'm curious and I love to have a conversation, love to understand. And I had Jackie Hill Perry on my podcast trying to understand. And she was like, I was a former lesbian, gave my life to God, which was the way you could be gay in the church. You could have been gay and God could have taken the gay away. That's we get you on that. Yeah. You can't be gay. Right. Ben. Yes. Be. No. Right. You cannot be. That's how we was taught. I'm like, but some people be gay. And I'm gonna say one thing to that. I know I'm all over the place, but it's gonna make sense. We with you. Went to a church. are and I hate it because it's so stereotypical, but it is true. Our choir director was gay. This nigga was amazing songwriter, amazing arranger, amazing choir director. He wasn't like flamboyantly gay in the sense of like how movies make people, but he was very obviously gay. Our church was like, don't talk about that, but do be a part of the choir. Do the music, yeah. For me, it was incongruent to me that we can use your gifts, but deny your humanity. Like, you know he gave, but he writing them songs, and them songs are moving people, right? I mean, we're in here crying to his songs. God is using him. God is using him. You can't make me believe I didn't feel what I feel. Tone has a song called Make Me Over. we I'm talking about God himself spoke through Tone to me about my sins. When I listened to when I found out that Tone was gay, he did an interview about it. This song is very clearly about could be interpreted. You know, my other side, I can no longer hide. Hold on. You was telling us right then. So I don't discount everything the church is. But I also cannot not acknowledge the harm that was done. And I think you hold space for both of those. I did this. That's why I know that you've evolved. Yeah, I said hold space. And I did. Yeah, those are two. And I think in most things, things are not inherently good or evil. The black church was great at so many things, but it got things wrong. Same way black parents were good at so many things, culture, respect. But they also got a lot of things wrong. And what we taught was discipline was quite often abuse. Some people still believe that is the only way to discipline children. I don't feel that way. Same thing happened with my son about being gay. I remember I used to with my kids when they were young. I remember one time my youngest son hit my oldest son. So I popped my youngest son and said, don't hit your brother. And in that moment, my brain was like, wow, what the hell? Yeah. Now make that make sense. How you hit him to tell him not to hit him. That didn't, it just, that's literally the last time I hit my kids. that was 24 it just didn't make sense to me and i also was thank god i had the time to discipline them but that requires me to listen to my kids admit that i was wrong my parents didn't admit they were wrong to us what are you talking about what are you talking about i heard a friend of mind like apologizing to their kids and i was like yo in 41 years of knowing this man he never said he was sorry he would do things to let you know that he was sorry you want to eat some meat yeah i got a little fat like a son i got i got some big k big fishes right but actually but then i am sorry for what i did daddy sorry daddy was wrong this this bubble no no i told my son my child you hurt my feelings what did he how did he respond to that he apologized wow he didn't see that i he didn't see how his actions did because i realized i'm like i'm taking this disrespect but as a married person when i went through i always say that we can go longer i'm having a great time if y'all ain't a rush i'm not in a rush i often say that I learned I went to therapy to become a better husband I became a better person same I realized what I'm taking as disrespect for my kids is you actually hurt my feelings but it's it's wild for me to say my kid hurt my feelings because my parents would never acknowledge if you if you don't if you uh don't answer me when I call you it it's all everything's disrespect huh sucking your teeth this being wrong sometimes when i when i when i remember what he did but i realized as i processed it i was like he didn't actually make me feel disrespected he actually hurt my feelings when he did that but i'm trying to teach him to be an emotionally intelligent person to everybody around him so if i can't model to him hey you hurt my feelings when you did that how can i expect him to do that yeah it hasn't been modeled for him so i had to like swallow some ego and some pride because you are my child what you talking about you can't hurt my feelings i'm your father because i'm me on hood right that's where i'm from the streets yes yeah right so so i i i told him that and he was like oh my god i'm sorry i didn't realize that like explaining things to my kids was like a thing my parents so this is a new thing for me i didn't have this model for me but i want my kids to be able to do to do this and also back to the the uh black church and gay things. My kids are growing up in an inclusive world and they're not growing up in as much black church as I grew up with. One of the things that my son, when he first wanted to vote, he wanted to protect gay rights because his homegirl from life is gay. So he's like, I could vote. I need to protect her. This is my friend from third grade. He doesn't have the same thing that that I have. Right. So it's an interesting thing when you're raising kids differently than you were raised because you're trying to be better. And I really, I understand. And I forgive my parents because they did the best they could with what they had and what they knew. And I think in some ways the black church did as well, because at the end of the day, the people were in the black church was black parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same people that was raising me. They just went up to preach or to sing and sat, sat back down. It's the stuff was enforced more by your family yeah outside the pastor said it but the people enforced it so you feel like you're going against it felt like going against the black church was going against my family absolutely you know what i mean it wasn't just the church it's like it's my grandma specifically it's a it's a great comparison and i i really understand it because i feel like sometimes i say we we grew up um in a similar way if if jesus had a podcast in 2026 what topic do you think would get him canceled? I'm going to answer this in a in a in a different way. I think we don't really think about who Jesus was when he lived on earth. We think more about Paul. Jesus, if he was on a podcast, he spent all his time with the degenerates, the sinners, the publicans, the tax collectors, is basically the outcasts of society. That's who he spent his time with. So if he spent his time with those people in the Bible, to me, you fast forward, he would spend his time with marginalized people today who are marginalized people today. Black people, gay people, trans people. That's who I think based on the data of who he spent his time with. So I think he would get in trouble for spending time with people that we shouldn't be spending time with because they are not right. They're not like us. I feel like when I was growing up, I was. Most of my Christianity wasn't Christianity at all. It was really I want to be more saved than you. I'm not really out here trying to leave people to God. I just need to feel better about my walk than their walk. I'm not actually spending time with people to actually get them to come to church. I think one of the best examples of the black church done right is my brother's story. He was out here having kids crazy, having sex, doing all kind of lasciviousness and debauchery. He started coming to church. And at first he was just at church. Church ended at one. He'd get there at twelve fifty eight and then twelve fifty eight became twelve forty five. He's loved this whole time. That's the point of story. Twelve forty five became twelve thirty. 1230 became 12, became 1130, became 11, became after many years, even though everybody was aware of how he was living, he was fornicating, he was shacking up. We just loved him through all that stuff. He got married and he was the superintendent of the Sunday school. And the church loved him from 1248, 58 to 11, till before 11, setting up for Sunday school. So I think that's a good example of Jesus's love. I'm going to love you, even though I disagree with how you're living your life. You're still welcome. You can come to my house. You are welcome to partake. We're going to picnics. Your whole self is love. Not you can get this when you get your act together. When you stop doing sin, you stop doing whatever is whatever. You know, one of the great analogies I love is like a church is a hospital for the sick. That means they are coming in sick. I think sometimes the church, we often want people to come in well and leave well or. that's not the point of a hospital hospital is supposed to help you get well the church is supposed to help you get your life together to be better with God so to speak so I don't know that Jesus would ever even have a podcast but if he did he probably would be getting cancelled for spending time with people who are not the right kind of Christians that's what I think you know my you know I've always had this observation of Jesus and it's always been argued they never liked when I was around you know I think Jesus hung out with those people they were the only people that would have him Jesus believed that he was the son of God and that he was sent here to purify the world of its sin that he was here to fix things you can't have that conversation with power you can't have that conversation with people who have the world made the way they want it to be made. Those people aren't going to listen to you. When you tell them that there is something new, when you tell them that there is something that they're not doing, those are not going to be the people that are going to listen to you and say, hey, let's remake the world anew. Let's change everything. Jesus hung with the people who would listen to his message. and the people who are going to listen to the message of we need to do this differently are the community of people who need to hear what is new, who need to hear the thing that is going to save them. And so that I remember saying that back. Yeah, everybody listen to Jesus. Jesus do turn water into wine. I'm like, no, Jesus was talking to the people and surrounding himself with the people that would have him because they're going, this can't possibly be life. this is not me this is not like what i am and and and even the way we like orient around power now we try to do this top-down thing we try to make uh and so we we look at people who we don't think are worthy or people who we don't think are special or good enough for this stuff we make all these judgments about them and then the people who have attained all of this stuff and who are the elites, we think that they are the good ones, the people that are undergirding the same power structures that are keeping you where you are. And so when I hear people go, Jesus was with this and then this and then this, I look at them and I go, that's you, nigga. I know that you think that, like, no, he was with you. That is you. Yeah. And so when you talk about system breaking or planning and plotting and all of that to remove, change, rearrange and do all of that stuff. If you think that you're going to do that with the people who own, maintain, reinforce, good luck. Right. You're going to do that with the people that they tell you not to go build with. One thousand percent. I think Jesus is a lot of his big conflict was not with marginalized people. It was with super religious people, Pharisees, Sadducees. It was overtly religious people. I always use this example. And it's not mine. This pastor really killed it with this one time. He was talking about the woman, the adulterous woman that they got caught in that. And he said Jesus came to do what was right, not what was I mean, came to do what was good, not what was right. so the law if you had adultery was to stone you so geez they like geez what you want to do because they want him to they want to catch him in a catch 22 you say he's supposed to be by the law we caught her in the act if you if you're the son of god this is what we say she gotta die she gotta die yeah so the right thing to do would be to stone her the good thing to do is to say that he who is without sin cast of her stone because now you need to check your heart first because you know you with them okay you so you've done nothing wrong you'd be the first one to throw the stone right so i think that is you know he was very masterful with his words that's why there was in red in the bible not black but i think that's what i want to be like right i feel like to your point about people in power you start agreeing with that power a little too much seems like you're more interested in power than people for sure man for sure bro that see listen to care don't listen that's what i'm trying to say like that's really the only thing i'm trying to say but it seems to me that you're not actually concerned with the material experiences of people's lives and how they are living the one life that they get that what you might be concerned about is the rules that need to lord over those people that you think should be in place. One thing I think about so often is the creation of whiteness. Right. And the creation of whiteness happened more from my understanding after slavery. When you have sharecropping blacks and poor whites looking at each other and the white people are realizing. All right. Now they used to be slaves. So I felt like I at least I'm not a slave. My life might be the same, but they are subservient to me. I am free now. They're free. Hold on now. Our life is exactly the same. The people in power and capital realize, OK, if they get together, it's dangerous for us. So now if I can't make them subservient by slavery, I'm going to make whiteness superior to blackness. So now I have something to Lord over you again. And it's the color of my skin. Back to your point about me. I'm not even talking about the black church. I wanted to when we're not. This is just me, not the black church. What I felt like when I felt that gay people were wrong and they were living in sin. I really felt I'm better than you. I'm still sinning, though. But your sin is worse. And this is something that I'm hearing. Right. the Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Liars will have their place in a special place in the lake of fire. But the pastor is saying gay people are somehow worse. Since I'm out here fornicating, I feel like I got to make the gay people lower than this is just me. So I feel like I need to feel a little bit better, man. At least I ain't gay. Do you think that scripture condemns the gay lifestyle? Brother, when I tell you sometimes I think the Internet was the worst thing that happened to me because I I was taught that. What I have now learned is. So much about the Bible language, cultural customs cannot be applied on a one to one thing with today. I no longer think that the way it was explained to me is exactly the way it was meant to be explained. so I choose and I can't definitively say one way or another because I'm not a theologian and sometimes I'm unsure exactly of what I'm interpreting or even who is saying right you know what I mean like sometimes it's just like I don't even know how I feel but I do know that I will not make people who are gay feel less than and what's so interesting is his name is Christian Smith. He's a black theologian, deconstructionalist. And he and there's another white dude on TikTok, Dan something. He was saying we interrogate the Bible all the time. Right. There's things in the Bible that happened that we decide as a society. I know that's in the Bible, but we ain't going to do that. When people were getting married, these were literal children. Twelve, 13 passed off. you're going to take my daughter as a bride you're a grown man you're going to have my daughter who's 13 we have decided alright well I know the bible says that but like come on y'all can't do that like you know what I'm saying multiple wives all up and through the bible people have the God's own heart David, Solomon, wives concubines we have decided as a society I know that's in the bible but we just like come on y'all not really going to do that. Okay. If we can interrogate those things, why can we not interrogate sexuality? Right. If we already are interrogating it, we already have decided there's a certain age for a man and women should be can consent. You know, let me tell you what, what example blew my mind. A theologian said that David raped Bathsheba. That was a rape or sexual assault. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they were making the point that he was the king. She could not say no, could not say no. If you can't give consent, what is that? Sexual assault, rape. I'm like, hold on. That is not the story I was taught. I didn't even have that worldview as a kid when I'm here. And when you're teaching about David and Bathsheba, I'm six or seven. Like, I didn't even know. But again, to my point about cultural customs, who is David? If you're in a position of power and this is a woman, if you're brought to the king, you're doing what he says. So she can't consent by our laws and customs. That's considered rape or sexual assault. That's not something I was taught. I think while saying the reason the Internet was somehow the worst thing for me when I was growing up, it was only what the pastor said. All I had access to was my pastors, my pastors in my life, not all pastors, just my pastor in my life. None of them went to seminary. Charismatic people, great people. not fully educated in the Bible, the way people who go to seminary are. When I started really understanding the Bible differently is when I started when I was a youth pastor. And I started to say, like, I don't want to teach these kids something I don't believe. So I'm going to study. Remember, I asked him, which I want me to talk about. There was like, we want to learn about tattoos. And I was like, oh, perfect. I'm going to go to Leviticus and tell you why tattoos are sinful. not to learn to tell you because I've been taught no man should cut himself up. And just like the dad, I'm going to get y'all. I went on the Internet to get a little teen lesson. This white dude wrote. You probably came here. I mean, this is the first paragraph. You probably came here to tell your teens why tattoos are wrong. And I'm like, why? Yes, exactly what I came here to do. Thank you. He's like, OK, the scripture you're looking for is Leviticus 19 and 21, because I couldn't find it. Maybe that's not it. that's what I thought and he's like okay here it is and it says no man should cut the dead I'm like perfect and he's like keep reading and I was like okay so I read the scripture before that it's like men shouldn't cut their beards I'm like wait what read the scripture before that no men shouldn't or we shouldn't wear a cotton of two different types so he's like check your shirt like this is the article he's like check your shirt make sure it's 100% of whatever I literally checked my shirt and It was like poly blend. And I was like, oh, snap. And it was basically Leviticus is a chapter. Four Levites, two Levites, that chapter. One thing my pastor in Washington taught me that was so good because I used to preach. He was like, you shouldn't preach a message until you dissect it in these three ways. Who is writing it? Who are they writing to? And what are the cultural norms and histories of that time? you need to understand all three of those things before you say anything because you can't apply something without understanding how the way the world was at that time so at that so i kept reading the article he basically was like what you think this says it doesn't really say this is basically saying a levitical priest shouldn't get tattoos not the lay person so i had to go to my teens and be like, parents were mad. What are you teaching my son? I'm like, and I shared the article. I'm like, this is my understanding. What happened, and this is what I think happens a lot of time in the black church, right? So it's okay. I talked about this stuff on Joe Budden and Christians got pissed and I'm like, here, go again. But I can't lie to y'all. People don't often want to be challenged because if you interrogate this if this isn't true then the whole thing falls apart and if my whole identity is christianity in this specific way if i if that it's like taking a jenga piece out if you mean to tell me gay people ain't going to hell who going to hell then yeah and then there's people like hell might not even be real so well somebody's got to go to hell somebody got to go that's not it somebody's got to go to hell because i have to be because i'm going to heaven it goes back to yours is worse than me i'm better than you no i think that that's like the biggest thing of it is the old at least for me the older you get you realize not just like what your pastor taught you before about the three things when you're reading something it's also okay there's different versions well what was going on in the world when this version of the bible came out then there's also well which there were multiple books that were written beyond the 66 so which books were written in and why were these included why these why aren't these and so then you start questioning everything and then and then really just even just look at today in 2026 i mean i went to a small baptist private school my whole life so i was getting it from school and i was getting it from church and i was getting things from home so i understand what you mean about the whole it becomes your identity it your whole thing you don want to challenge it because then it like not even just is it a lie but it like has everybody been lying to me And then you can like it it a really really hard thing to come to terms with Yes. And then people don't want hard things. People don't want hard things. Reinforcing something that you've been taught is actually easy. Yes. Breaking something down and learning for yourself is very hard. I actually don't like why Van don't listen to gospel. I don't want to cry. but can I just say the way we're describing it doesn't that sound like cult mentality now you get into dangerous territory I'm just saying you're talking you're still my God now but no I think anything you can't in the Bible to your point they ask God questions they were mad at God Jesus when he was about to get crucified he said hey man listen I feel you but if it be your will to let this cup pass from me would you mind And he even questioned the thing. And he being Jesus, being all knowing Job, Dave, there's all kind of people questioning God. I'm not even asking the question. God, I'm asking the question. Your pastor, not even God. But the way I was taught, your pastor and God, he talking directly to a pastor. And if I couldn't question my parents, I for sure can't question my pastor. But then what happens is we grow up and we learn and our generation is like we question and stuff. we question all kind of stuff and i think what you said if when it borderlines on code is if i can't ask questions or i'm shunned for asking questions we could keep going on and on about this because i would ask you i would even go into the black church versus black pastor and like elders and things like that and how i'm not even going to get into that i'll ask you one last question um you give so much you talk about so much you know like we know your kids we know your at least what you share. Yeah. You know, you're involved in so many different things. Is where you are right now and what you've accomplished and what you plan on continuing to accomplish. What is something that you're protecting at this stage in your life? The funny thing is I protect a lot of stuff. I give people so much of stuff that they think it's everything. But I've been sharing less and less and less and less. The more visible I become, the less I'm actually sharing about my actual life. I just talked about this on my new grief sucks tour. I'm going to say it publicly here. I probably will never tell the Internet with anybody else in my family dies. Never. I realized through the grieving process, my brother, who is also a slightly visible person, I don't want to agree with strangers. Grief is very personal to me. I appreciate y'all. But when my mom passes because I don't want to garner what it is to be a highly visible person, how people I don't want that. so my marriage somebody said this on twitter real happy cup real happy couples gatekeep a lot of stuff because y'all would tear them apart if you did all kind of things in my marriage gate kept i'd be going on full trips no content no nothing stuff with my kids i asked my kids you mind if i make this a video if they say no i don't make it a video like my son had a beard i was like let's like the video is like, I really feel it. But stuff with my kids that happens in their life, actual life, I feel like for visible people, you need good friends, good group chat, good family. Don't let the Internet become your friends, your group chat, your family, because you are content to them. A lot of times people treat highly visible, famous people like they're not human because to them they're just a character. There's no difference between me, you, Van then Nene Leakes Phaedra, the Patriots the Patriots. If you win enough they're going to be like, we sick of these people winning it's time for them to lose. It's happening with Drewski right now and when I say that I know that sounds like, oh my god what I'm telling you is, it makes no sense to even be upset about it. It's human nature. We love I love the Chiefs when they was beating the Patriots. Right. But now the Chiefs don't want to lie like, all right, man. All right, now, somebody else turned now. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so, like, that's not even a critique or something that's meant to be like, oh, look, I'm just saying it's natural. So be, like, cognizant of how you move around. 1,000%. I used to, when I got a Maserati, I made a big deal about it. I'm sharing my life. This was a life moment. When I turned that car back in. What's the name of your Maserati? That Maserati is their Maserati now. He turned it back. You gave it back? What? You gave back the Ark? Gave it back. That oil. Let me tell you how. I shouldn't even have a Maserati. I'll tell you how I shouldn't have had a Maserati. I took my Maserati to Jiffy Lube. No, you didn't. Dead serious. You can't even put the same gas kind of gas in a Maserati. Cedar Boulevard. Burnt out. I took my Maserati to Jiffy Lube. That dude was like, what are you doing? I was like, what oil change? He was like, well, you can't. I was like, bro, I just came here when I had my Toyota. He said, man, you got to take it to the dealership. I was like, why? He's like, we can't do, sir. You're burnt out. Go. Take it to the Maserati dealership. When them people looked me dead in my face and said $900. Matter of fact, a thousand to do the main. I said, yeah. Oh, this isn't me. This isn't me. Lost the Maserati key. I lost car keys all through my life. I go get the other car key, go to the grocery store, go to Home Depot, $2 key. Maserati, $1,500. What are you telling me? Yeah. $2,500 for an oil change and a key? Y'all got it. Take this car back. I have a Toyota Tacoma. All right. Okay. That's not me. Sure. I wouldn't even share if I went back to Maserati. whatever I could get never share it I honestly think sometimes I feel like I'm like closing ranks more I just give my opinion on a lot of things sure salt on the internet solve this solve this podcast clip so that you feel like I'm sharing I'm sharing old stories stories that have been public for years actual life things y'all not finna open I'm not finna open myself up to so I can be destroyed and ridiculed I agree no my thoughts on a lot of things stay with the people who I know I can trust those thoughts with. Yeah, the people who allow you to be an asshole. That's the thing, man. I'm not as nice as people think I am. The people who allow you to be an asshole. The people who are cool when you're having a bad day. I've been on this podcast having a bad day. I get it. My bad days are not for them. 1,000%. And I'm not even true. I understand. My bad days aren't for them. It's just not wise. It's not wise. because you, I I thought I was special. I thought I was special for a while. I thought I'm nice. Everybody love Kev. I'm not. I'm not special. They go after Tab, Keith Lee. They go and come after Keith Lee. No, Keith ain't done. How do you go after Keith Lee? You want to eat food and make y'all happy and give. The man tries so hard. His palate, he got the palate. You know what? we don't like stuff we don't like nothing go to the restaurant sit down at the restaurant just do the whole thing leave the people a $17,000 tip it's not enough it's not enough you had issues with it I don't even remember specifically what it was I don't have a problem with Keith Lee in general it was whatever we were talking about stop it my point is like to your point I remember I remember when when stuff went bad for me like I made a misstep made a mistake brother passed away and I remember my life started becoming content for people's podcasts and stuff and I'm like yo y'all talking about me like I'm TR and 50 Cent like I'm not famous like that but and I realized sometimes on people YouTube channel that the video about me was one of their better videos so we gotta come back So you got to come. I got it. That's only smart content making. I'm going to go back to what I'm throwing stuff against the wall. Oh, kept on stage, video, expose, whatever it is. Hey, kept on stage every once in a while. Kept on stage funny to y'all. Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. They're going to whack me on every slide with that. It's okay. I don't. And now the algorithm is like, you used to have to search your name on Twitter to get obliterated. Now the algorithm is like, nigga, they talk about you. Let me show you. You're getting cooked over here. On TikTok, Twitter threads, people are like, dang, I'm sorry, friend, what's happening to you? What's happening? Are you getting cooked on TikTok right now? What'd I do? I remember one time I was getting Mel Mitchell hit me up. I'm so sorry, friend, they're cooking you. I said, what'd I do now? I was with my wife having lunch and what has helped me in real life is every time I've been getting cooked on the internet and I'm out in the streets, have a show or just out, there's a black person showing me love. Oh, what up, Kev? My grandma loves you. Let me get a picture. I'm so grateful that every time I've been cooked, I always have something to do and somebody's always, and I always get shown love, but it always happens that the moment I'm getting cooked online, somebody in real life is like, yo, I love your work. So I just have to accept that sometimes people just jump on the thing because everybody's talking about it. And last thing I'll say about it, and you've been so gracious with your time, is like this gonna sound fucked up they're entitled to it i agree they're entitled look i'm this is the way i feel what you mean man this is let me tell you let me tell you what i mean this is what i mean this is what i mean the way i obviously i like to go back and forth okay you love it obviously i like he talks about his sister yeah obviously i like to go back and forth yeah so it is different for me than a lot of people right if you come at me and it's completely in bad faith whatever there's nothing there I block you but the people out there that are consuming this stuff that are being entertained they're entitled to it they're entitled to their opinion whether that opinion is right or wrong whether that opinion reinforces us or not they're entitled to it do I wish that we lived in the type of society where people had the wherewithal or the time to like really go into something with complete good faith all the time i do but guess what i don't do that and so and so like it what what i know is every once in a while the shit that happens i'm never gonna forget y'all for posting my mom on the reddit never gonna forgive that for posting my mother on the reddit ever ever ever ever ever scum but i worked at tmz for a long time and working at TMZ for a long time told me that people see all of this stuff they're there, they want to get shit off their chest and if you're going to be in this space, some of it some of it is going to be incumbent on you to detach a little bit so you give them a little bit less of you what you said about grief is powerful because the reason why I talk about my dad so much is because I really don't know what to do I'm fucking sad all the time I don't know what to do you should come to my grief suck show i i should come on i really don't know what to do like everybody i'm gonna do some more in la they sold out real quick but i it won't tell you what to do yeah but the the the overwhelming thing that people have said from seeing that show is they feel seen and i feel like sometimes just being like i ain't the only person thinking like this is just a relief and i feel like that too like it's it's it's it's tough when you really love somebody like really did and you can't give them that love the way you were able to for many years that love's still there and especially if you have more to say yeah even worse yeah like you have more we weren't done man you were supposed to see me you were supposed to be proud finally and all of that stuff like that like and this is done and i just gonna be like okay it's cool the rest everybody go but so sometimes i do that but then you do that and then every once in a while somebody goes, I hate you. Like, maggots are eating your father. And you go, wait a minute. I can't talk about this. Look, I'm like, I'm like, man, and even that response, like, that was, like, when you get, when I get a response like this, back to the full circle, when I get a response like that, I laugh because I go, yo, how could you say this? It could be a bot. Right, I know, I know. It could literally be a bot now. I'll show this. I'll be like, yo, look how this nigga is wild. This nigga is crazy. How could you say this to somebody? But, man, this has been fantastic, bro. We gotta come back. We definitely gotta come back. That might have been the fastest two hours. I almost shut up. I said I wasn't gonna talk about the black church again because I don't want to draw the ire. But also, man, it's like I wanted to say this. You just reminded me just by your welcoming look. one thing that messed me up and i i said two more things i'm sorry we're just gonna keep going a little bit a little bit a little bit i said i protect black women i didn't always there was time i put black people black women at the expense of a joke out in the forefront in my own wife so if i could do it to her i could do it to you i got called out about that and i was like dang y'all right all right that's community right that's one thing back to the church and i want to say this too because it was a point that i was making i don't know why but i'm making it I was taught drinking is bad, drinking is a sin. I was like, okay, I'm with y'all as a kid. I found Seagram's Extra Dry Gin behind my grandma's TV. I said, now, hold on. Y'all told me drinking was a sin. This is my grandma's TV. I know who put the gin behind there. Me and my brother drank some hot gin one time. Right? It's behind the TV. Big booty TV, too. Hot gin. Hot gin. Oh, yeah. We all have the TV. You could cook something behind it. For sure. That gin was 98 degrees. Okay. Later on in life, my aunt, church person as well, who went for us, we ain't drinking. That's a sin. She got a Zima in there. And I've seen Zima commercials. Zima. I ain't heard that in a long time. Yeah, she got a Zima in there. I said, I don't tell you. I think I'm about to be 19. I said, we can drink these? She said, you can't because you ain't 21. No, this is not what I'm talking about. we say we're saying well we kind of like there's stuff that we say and there's stuff that we do the reason i don't feel bad saying this stuff the christian i will not be that i that messed me up is the christian to christians but i'm actually not that person what i refuse to do is wear a christian mask because i could say all the right things right and unfortunately there's people that I know that cannot because being a Christian is also tied to their income. So what they actually believe and what they say are incongruent. But if they say what they actually believe, same way politicians are. Politicians say what they need their base to hear to keep them in power. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. That's why rich people be like, ain't no abortions. My kid needs an abortion. There's an abortion for us. Right. Right. I can't be that person that is like, I'm going to present to you what I think you want because they're going to hate you either way. so if you hate me or like me you will love the current version of me and that person has changed if you're a kev on stage fan i've lost fans when i start talking about like this about gay people a lot of my christian audience was like all right i'm done with kev because when i was young i was when i first started making content i was fully still indoctrinated right i didn't talk crazy because i was like i feel like the people but like you know i would tweet stuff like i don't want my son to be gay because that's what I was taught and then I had a son and I was like I actually don't feel this but I feel like my audience wants me to say this but then I felt like I can't say something I don't believe for for an audience because that that to me is selling out of course to me selling out is taking money and presenting yourself in a way you actually don't believe but you know what to get you paid so if I lose fans or gain fans I actually rather it be so congruent with who I am now versus I know I could probably hit a lick doing X, Y and Z, but I can't do that because, like I said, all black people are important to me. And I'm so sorry if you don't feel that way, that won't be. That's a place that we got to part ways. Yeah. Right. I want that fan anyway. I don't want that fan anyway. I don't I just can't do it because like queer black people got it bad enough. I don't want to add to their heartache you know what I'm saying black people got it bad enough you know what I'm saying so I just wanted to say that because I know this is just me saying this to myself because I know I'm opening myself up to criticism but it ain't no criticism that I didn't already hear when I said this stuff on Joe Budden's podcast and I agree with you man we I do the same thing I watch this movie I like this person I don't like this person I argue in bad faith all the time I just don't really post it no more right because like I'm realizing now because of who I am, I can't say what I used to say when nobody knew who Kev on stage was. Because now I'm running into these people. So now I'm just like, you know, if they or y'all, if you got cooked and I just sat on this podcast and after this, you say something crazy. I probably not going to binge you. Well, you did make a video about me, about Anita Baker. Because I need to throw you under the bus. I don't always protect black women. That's what I'm saying. Because you were worse than me. And I need to get the heat going your way, Rachel. Why was I worse than you? Because once you knew her, you loved her. Yeah. You stayed with it. And I said, oh, let me direct the black people to her. After all the criticism, I still feel it. You're still standing. Still strong. Feel what I feel. I mean, that's what I'm saying. People got to have their, like, that, that, those types of, that's why we got to make sure that we don't feel that we above. Because when we say shit like that, people supposed to be able to get you right because that's disgusting. Listen, I open myself up to it. I've been dealing with this. Well, you should have seen Deontay's reaction. it's really a crazy I brought him back with Drew Hill that's the take of higher learning they said Drew Hill is better than Boyz II I said it on a podcast but he agreed with me I got a lot of flack for that you know what we just gotta keep podding no other topics today after camp gone pod over we just gotta keep podding what do you mean better what are you defining as better because I love Drew Hill Drew Hill is great And I fight for them. So Drew Hill is great. I think that Boyz II Men, if we're being honest, I think that Boyz II Men's music aged in a way that makes people feel like Boyz II Men wasn't as fucking dangerous or cool. I don't think Drew Hill is dangerous music when I listen to it. I just felt. They had one nigga that had blonde. Cisco? Yeah, and he could do backflips. Like, that's pretty dangerous. Okay, that's how we're defining it. He had sunglasses on. there was just it i mean like boys to men sounds it's like lighter to me it's prettier okay so let me back it up the type of music that i like i want to feel the lyric you're singing okay okay like a teddy p yeah like uh david ruffin i referenced him earlier yes i like that it just make i connect to it better i think boys to men is pretty i love their music i love the songs Drew Hill hits to me in a completely different way. Okay, so you're saying you're making the Mary J. Blige argument. Versus who? Versus who could have a light voice. Ooh, I'm trying to think of who. I'm thinking of this as I'm happening. I'm just saying people's argument of Mary J. is you feel her. Somebody could have a daintier, prettier voice, but you don't. Adele, let's say Adele, right? It's not the same genre, but like you, they don't sing in the same. Actually, that's not a good argument because Adele makes you feel her. This is what I say. If you like Drew Hill better than Boyz II Men, that makes a lot of sense. We've got to say what is better because I keep saying better. If you like Drew Hill better, that's what I'm asking. Drew Hill cannot fuck with Boyz II Men in any way, shape, or form. Based on what? Once again, Mary J. For example, Mary J. Blige. I'm going to say something that I don't know. Like, there are people who would, Mary J. Blige's contemporaries, that just, if you just talk about voice, they sang better than Mary J. Blige did. No one made better music. whatever it is about Mary that gets her into a song whatever the sensibility is about Mary that gets her into a song that lets you connect to her the music and the number of hits was also better than the people who quote unquote have more technically trained voices than her. Drew Hill if you like Drew Hill better that's cool but in no way shape or form measurably is Drew Hill better than Boyz II feeling you is a measure isn't it? That's one measure. That's one. That's a personal case. I can't believe we didn't do this. So when we were at the house and Deontay and Cat were there, we did a versus of T.I. and 50. Okay. Right? In light of what was going on. Yep. Because we're never going to see one in real life with the two of them. So we should have done a Drew Hill versus Boyz II Man. Because we just ended it when you said there's one song that nothing compares and it's Mama. That's what Bans said. He's like, there's nothing. They said that. Drew Hill don't even have enough records to be in a. That is not true. Are you talking about quantifiable like Billboard hits? Drew Hill is the feel you. Beauty. Beauty niggas love beauty. I know they love beauty. They love, but you wouldn't qualify to hit the same way. As have the crossover appeal. If we're doing Billboard, you're right. It's going to be boys too. Billboard don't always mean stuff to us. He's looking it up. He's looking it up. No, but what I'm saying is we're going to have Cisco on the Midnight Boys. I think you guys are underestimating the Boyz II Men records that are out there. I don't think that people are thinking back about, so on Bend Your Knee, that song don't do nothing for you. No, no. Love it. I love Boyz II Men. I was just curious what her argument was. I love Boyz II Men. This is the Twitter-facation of Boyz II Men. something happened a few years ago and they're like, you like Boyz II Men them niggas were singing with their feet doing this in the air and somehow once that went out it was like Boyz II Men are just squares they got Mariah I mean hits, records it's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday they got records that the community we belong together I feel like what's happening right now is he walked up I'll make love to you That's a good, like, these are... It's a great song. Okay. And by the way, if you hate on them, this is also Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, this is Baby Face. But I'm not hating on them. I'm just saying this is... Because I didn't say... This isn't Anita Baker, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't say their music doesn't move me, that I don't like it. That is what I say about Anita Baker. I can't find one song that I really like. I just said I want to protect black women. Let me tell you this. Now you're just making me... Do you know what happened to me? One of the Anita Baker records. Do you know what happened to me? When I said that, I cannot tell you how many people were pouring their hearts out to me privately of all the people. They were like, thank you for being bold enough to say that because there are this person. I'm so scared to say I don't feel this person. I don't like this person. I don't mean nothing to you. That don't mean nothing to you. It means skip. It's so funny that I can't listen to the game, but I feel it. And I'm not alone. I'm just bold enough to say it. You cannot argue nostalgia. Yeah. And black people grew up with Anita Baker. They associate that with good times. And I got to clean the house. They said I had a dirty house. For sure you did. That's true. I told my mom that. It cannot be nostalgia, period. That's true. Put them records on fucking fire, bro. Oh, I disapprove of her wholeheartedly. Yeah. But she's arguing against nostalgia. It's not like I said I didn't like, I don't know, Luther. No, no, no. You did. You did say you did about Luther. Actually, it's exactly that. Saying you don't like Anita Baker is... You're saying that she is the woman, Luther? 1,000%. Are you nuts? 1,000%. You just said I don't like Never Too Much, A House Is Not A Home. You just said those records mean nothing to you. He might as well never exist. Guys, let me think. That's what you're saying when you say about Anita Baker. Give me a second to think of who I think the equivalent is. They might be the most one-to-one. Plus, she was independent. Plus, Freeway Rick Ross funded her first album. She got street cred. She owns her master. I'm not saying I don't know who she is. I'm just saying her music. I love that you've done the full research. You know the biography now. 1,000%. I want black people to understand. And guess what, Rachel? There's no retribution for me. I'm an outcast. I'm still with you. to the black people. I don't think so. I think you redeemed yourself. It's pumpkin pie, sweet grits, and nita baker. That's what they call it. That's my trifecta of non-black. You like sweet grits? Mm-hmm. That's crazy. I don't like grits. Oh, man. Who are we eating? Who are we eating as sweet people? We're not a model. It's a texture. It's a texture for me. You know what, though? She doesn't eat macaroni and cheese. Yeah, I'm doing dairy. So she, I think, one of the people when I was still like fucking with the red hair. There are exceptions. They said that they think Rachel has like afric or something like that. What is that? It's like a neurodivergent thing. It's a neurodivergent thing. Like they're diagnosing kids with this. I've never heard of this. Afric, they think that Rachel has afric. We get diagnosed by our audiences a lot of times. It's just like over time I stopped eating it. So I'll eat it in certain things. So you did like it, but I just don't agree with you. Oh, I'm not like Justin Dollar. I just don't like it. It stinks to be honest. Our friend is avoiding restrictive food intake disorder. It's diagnosed based on the DSM-5, persistent failure to meet. There's all kinds of things that you have. Y'all are laughing at me. All of this stuff. It's a major psychosocial disruption. They say, but you know what? Just like that dude that said, nigga, we can't care. We got to protect ourselves. Just like the guy that said, nigga, on the thing, we can't care. You hate me? You say, like, we got to look deeper. All right, you guys, there are a bunch of different topics that we had on the line, but there's nothing I can't wait till Monday. This was a fantastic sit down, brother. I had a blast. Like a fantastic sit down. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. And being open. You know what I mean? I just like y'all, man. I think this ending conversation is so true. Like, we don't have to all agree on everything to rock with each other. Right. We don't have to love grits or macaroni and cheese or gospel music. we still people we still niggas man we still community you can disagree with somebody and be like I don't agree with Kev on that that's fine that's okay you don't think Kev funny that is fine you don't think whatever you can yell at me in the comments because like Van said I actually come around to it I was disagreeing when you said it but I actually agree if you're going to be this visible and have this many opinions that person has the right to say it They deserve what they say. I don't even like you. I want to block you. I don't think you're funny or I disagree. I've opened myself up to that. You know why? Because we would accept the compliments. So it's like you can't accept one and not realize that there's another side to it. That's actually a great point. I would love if you say, I love Kev. But I put myself out there enough that I got to force you to make a decision. So cool. I love this. All right. I'm done. All right. By the way, Ian says, Micah Stampley is the name of his cousin. I know Micah. Micah Stampley. Good gospel music. Micah Stampley. Micah Stampley made good music. I feel like I've met him before, too. Shout out to all of the Stampleys and Ian's people and, you know, whatever they got going on. Okay. Take the Think Caps off. We do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. I'm Rachel and Lindsey. I'm Kevin. Bye, y'all.