Michelle Obama: We Still Go High

What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy daddy daddy. Michelle Obama welcome to call her daddy. Hey Alex look it here and call her daddy. I'm here. You don't even know. Cool set too. Thank you. It is beyond an honor to be sitting with you today. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I mean I'm personally good. Individually good feeling whole but you know the world feels a little nutty and so there's you know that piece of it seeps in in ways but I'm happy to be here. I'm happy you're here. Talk to me about your outfit. How did you pick it? Right outfit. This is a Meredith Cooper original and as we were thinking about promotions for the tour there is a picture that a lot of people have been showing of me at Princeton and Meredith Cooper had the idea of updating. This is the we updated version on one of the first pages I remember when I looked at it once and when she brought it to me I was like you are so look at this. I mean isn't so it's a redo. It's the next version. Oh that's so good. My campus look 2.0. Meredith. 5.0. Yeah yeah. So we were like this is the perfect place to do it with Alex. I love it. Okay I am going skiing soon and I heard you are also a skier. I love skiing but I'm kind of putting up my ski boots done. I just feel like I am just one fall away. You know I because I am like a crazy skier like I can't ski a little bit. I'm like skiing all day. Oh you're going to be a black diamond. I go black. Well I go black. I don't go double black. I like blacks and blues. Are we doing moguls? No. No not yet. But when I ski there's still I'm still the former first lady with security so I have sort of a ski motorcade. So there. I'm trying to picture myself skiing down. You can't tell. Right. You can't know because the agents are they're blending in you know some are snowboarders and some are but they're usually in the front and the back right so that no airant person just clobbers me you know. So I don't really know what goes on behind me when I'm skiing. I just know we make it down and I usually I ski with an instructor I ski an aspirin. Vance is my ski husband and I miss him dearly. Vance. I've skied with Vance for 10 years and I hope he hears this. I love him. I miss him. I haven't skied in two years but we ski we made it a mother daughter trip. All every president's day weekend for the last 10 years there are a bunch of mothers and daughters we've all raised our kids together and we take the long weekend go to ask and ski. So yeah but you're you're done. I just I'm just worried that you know like I usually have one fall you don't need an injury you don't need to be in a boot and then I can't do anything else you know. And we need you to do other things. Yeah anyway so that we need you. Yeah okay well good to know I was just wondering like hobby. I'm a skier I'm I'm the similar way though like as I continue to get older I'm like I don't want to be hurt from this. I want to enjoy myself but I'm so competitive. This is the thing I bet what are you are you black diamonds. I'm trying to go black diamonds I'll start on a blue just to like feel something and then I'm like you start feeling feeling it and then you're just like yeah yeah no let's do that black run let's do it or you do it once and then you're like let's do it again and it's like no it's it's after lunch you just ate a lot like always have one run too many it is the one run where I say I am done after this run and then right in the middle of the end of the run like I'm not stopping like that foot's not you're getting lazy getting lazy and then the form goes and then and then when I fall you know the looks on everyone's faces it's like everybody has a heart attack yeah I didn't even think about that like you kind of also have to worry about all these other people like you said you everyone's behind you in front of you watching out for you so if you're falling feel and do do they feel responsible and it's a thing that you want to fall and like have no one seat you don't have no one there ski patrol doctors you know men with guns it's like I'm good guys oh my god get up from there okay well good to know I just was interested in you know hobbies I know you knit I knit I haven't been knitting lately because I've been reading a lot and reading in prep for our podcast I'm reading people's books so and I still like books so I don't do audio and you if you're holding a book you can't knit so I'm really really reading a lot right now so I haven't knitted as much but it's still there it's in me I have been trying to read more as well I think just especially with the uptick and social media and the usage and everything I just feel so uninspired and so reading has allowed me to tap back into parts of myself that I do miss when I was in education right and when you're in school you're like taking it for granted but then you leave you're like wow what a what a privilege it was okay so when I was preparing for this interview yes I realized that they're we're kind of two ways I could go about it yeah option one would be more OG call her daddy days you know talk some relationships try to ask you a couple questions about what the Rock Obama wants to get reports on it's like you said what you're like it's her show I don't know sex which again you're right it would go viral and poor bra could be like why literally everything I've done why but then there's the other side of this show yeah which is option two which is hard but important conversations that are relevant to young women and girls all around the world and so as juicy as option one would be or not or not actually fair it could have been like that's that I'm like oh um right fair um I just thought about it I'm like you sitting here today as one of the most influential and powerful women in the world it would be too great of an opportunity not to have you impart your wisdom on the next generation who is watching and listening today so we're going with option two so I think we're on let's do one go option one she's like no I think with that setup yeah you're right yeah let's let's go without you and to anyone watching you can I'll take a deep breath this is not going to be about politics today this is going to be about women yeah which I love talking about here on call her daddy so Michelle are you ready I am ready Alex okay so you recently released your book the look congratulations thank you thanks so much beautiful and on the surface it presents like a fashion book right but it's so much more than that it is about your values uplifting women building confidence and we're going to get into all of it today but first I kind of want to set the scene of how we even got here you have talked a lot about how we live in a world where a woman's appearance and our bodies are overly scrutinized and objectified I'm going to quote you you said it is the habit of the culture of the world to put women in their place by attacking their physical being even after you went to Princeton and Harvard law school you were in the White House doing things like combating child obesity and advocating for girls education the haters still chose to focus on your arms and your hair what was that experience like for you and how did you navigate it day to day and not let it distract you yeah yeah I think it became sort of the shock shock of the reality of that I felt in the the first year of campaigning you know when Brock announced I was hesitant but once I was on board I was on board and I knew that I needed to be out there campaigning and introducing the world not just to him but to us as the first potential black president and black family we understood that there might be hesitations misconceptions people who you know weren't exposed to a broad diversity of people and so we knew that it was important for both of us to be out there telling our story helping people understand our values what we cared about how we were raised who our parents were to be all of those stories are what connect us so that's what I'm out there doing you know I'm in Iowa you know it starts out that I'm in people's backyards and you know in church basements I mean it starts out small because who are the Obama's I mean who are these two right so wasn't like people were climbing the walls I mean Hillary Clinton was the favorite in Iowa Brock was a distant fourth but we worked hard at the grassroots and understood that we'd have to meet people in their homes and in their communities and so I was kind of like not even a blip on the screen so I was out there freely talking and I'd never had a written speech I just would usually talk from my heart and talk about us and so slowly things grew and grew and I wasn't in a backyard anymore but I was in a school auditorium and it wasn't 10 people it was 5,000 people and I think everyone was kind of shocked by how I was connecting in that way but I always felt like this is this is who we are as Americans you know I mean the one of the best experiences I had in my life was leaving the South Side of Chicago and going into rural America and understanding that we're the same people you know it's like the food we eat the things we care about the way my dad loved his family the pride he had in his family you know the working class nature his work ethic people would do that they just shake their heads and nod and what might have been I'm not sure about you became a I know you right and that was the experience I was having but as my popularity rose I was being covered more right and so the press enters the scene and they're now reports right and the first thing after all this great conversation and connection the the top of the article would be she was wearing you know not my education not my you know not not my professional career but it started with appearance and it got worse as we got better so I understood it as campaign tactics right I could separate it out and go well this yet this is politics right it's like what better way to beat a moving engine is to try and slow it down and so with women what do we do with women we start sort of talking about their strength and there so then I became I was angry not passionate I was a misogynist I wasn't joking about my husband and humanizing him right I wasn't athletic I was scarier scarily muscular right so it was it was a rolling thing and I attributed it totally to politics and I didn't write it off to what people really thought because I had months and months of understanding that the people in those auditoriums and in those school buildings and at those speeches they they understood who I was did if that makes sense it does make sense and I think that's a great way to look at it right because you're you're able to compartmentalize essentially that this is the name of the game this is how it goes but it still doesn't mean that it's sexist right it's it's it's they're attacking you for your looks and they're not doing that to a man they weren't doing that to my husband right they weren't describing him physically and he was out there more than I was so I was like okay well this is where it comes from it's like wow whoever is doing this when it comes to how we put women in their place it's like okay you there there wasn't comment about the substance that I was saying it was like why did she wear this and was that appropriate and what does this mean and it's all about how we look and the more you pay attention to that you see it not just happened to me but even having other female candidates other wives other you know other celebrities other people in the public eye so I I tried not to take it personally and understand that this was a game and I definitely didn't want to assume that this is what America thought like being able to separate out what is politics and media and where people's hearts are and I think sometimes we still we struggle because the game is still happening you know we're still dividing each other up when my truth was that no one ever in my face in any community was unwelcoming or rigid or closed mind it right not in person right it was all about what was being fed so I didn't want that to I didn't want that to color my heart towards this country even you speaking right we're talking about objectification because we as women experience that every day and then you're dealing with it with it on the world stage I also love it because you have a pattern of challenging norms and you refuse to shrink or to conform to the pay charkey which I love and in your book you talk about learning that quote if you can't beat them work their fascination to your advantage it's one of my favorite quotes truly because it's so relatable like from a very young age as women we learn how to shapeshift essentially and we constantly we have to it's unavoidable right biologically to survive just to survive but that when you're you're talking about leaning into the fascination can you talk to me about how you personally learn to navigate it and how did you know Michelle went to lean in and went to pull back that's a that's a good question I think again on the campaign trail and as in those first months of of being in office you know you just you you see what's written and you see the you know you look up and there was a whole website miss oh that you know focused on and this was all it's this was complimentary it was exciting I could see the fun of it right I get it right um but I kind of thought that I understood that fashion and appearance for women is so powerful that if I spent too much time talking about it maybe nobody would hear anything else I'd have to say and I I came in wanting to say so much and do so much substantively I knew what I wanted to do going in and it was interesting I'd always get the question leading up to the campaign well you know how how did what do you want to accomplish as first lady and my first answer was first of all I want to make sure my kids are a whole so me being a good mother in this me and Barak being good parents in this like it didn't mean that we weren't going to work hard but if you want to know what my priority was like a lot of parents was making sure that my kids weren't destroyed by this thing we're doing that they ended up whole and I thought by saying that that that wasn't controversial it was just like like I we have kids and they've got to go to school they have security and so I'm gonna have to focus on that just like all of us as women mothers do we're multitasking and we're doing it all the time and I was doing it before I landed there but it was always interesting and people would be like well how do you know what to do in this role and to me it was clear that oh my god you you don't you don't know anything about what I did before I came here like you don't like you know and you don't want to but I was like well I went to Princeton and Harvard I mean I practiced law I was an assistant to the mayor in Chicago I ran a non-profit of 501c3 I was a vice president for community relations at the University of Chicago hospitals I was a dean of students I was like oh you guys I do all of that just disappeared in the course of this whole election and you now see me as just Barack Obama's wife so that made me say what that that quickly my shoes become the most important thing about me right and again not unique to me it can happen to the best of us so I shied away from fashion leading the conversation but I knew I couldn't I didn't completely control it so let's lean in let's lean in with what we do let's make sure that we have a plan and a strategy in place for how fashion just like everything we did in the White House would have meaning and impact that makes so much sense because again in the book you're talking about the now the behind the scenes of the designers you were choosing and people that you were choosing to work with was so meticulous on your end but speaking about it you can now speak about it but at the time I understand it's like I cannot be reduced to the dress and to the shoe and to the hair and the whole thing I want people to hear what I'm actually saying I have a question because I think this is pretty applicable to my audience because it's tough for women obviously when we're even talking about fashion a perfect example a young woman is going for a job interview and she gets the low down oh this boss is a full misogynistic pig so she wears the dress instead of the pants because she is so acutely aware and maybe it's subconscious that if she she leans into her conventionally feminine aura then she probably will have a better chance at getting the job but is that okay or are we abandoning ourselves and are we compromising ourselves like what what do we do you know look life is full of compromises just period right I mean some of what I always say is that you've got to pick and choose your battles we all do and the the personal question becomes where are you in life right if you're a young woman that needs a job to pay off her loans and to and it's your first job and you're you know you have less leverage than I do as the former first lady to where what you want and have this empowerment and say what you want to do like my advice to young girls is first of all make sure you can pay your rent you know and don't make decisions so rashly when you don't have the leverage to keep yourself safe right but in the midst of that you you don't want to compromise yourself so much that you lose yourself and you are not safe right so you may wear the dress because it's professional and gives you an edge but then you want to be very careful of who this person is that you're now working for you know and whether so now you have to be smart it's it has less to do with what you're wearing but who is that person and do you trust him and can you trust him you you know women don't have to dress a certain way to lead on somebody who has misogynistic you know a lot of times we blame ourselves and say well if you know look you leaned in because you wore that dress and you you know but but it is a tricky balance because you know if you're in a professional setting and wearing a dress or certain if if that is the standard then you are a little you know you do have to be thoughtful so we have to think a lot more I mean it's just this is also what I'm saying in the book right I mean to to strike that balance and to be thoughtful about what messages we're sending giving receiving men don't do that my husband wasn't doing that same suit put on blue suit black white shirt different tie you know I mean we're on a trip where there's 8000 things happening in one day you know we're on a svar and then we're at a meeting and then you know even the way they structure to the day it's like this is a man's schedule you know and all he has to do take off his tie I'm button the top top take the jacket off now he's casual now he can talk to kids now he's at a meeting with the you in throws that jacket back on and I'm following around and it's like I get heels and flats and cobblestones and sweaters and blazers and tops and skirts are too short and now you can't stoop that's me but that's all of us right we so there's so many there's so much work that I think we we do it so easily as women it it is just a part of waking up and it is a lot of work and I'm I want us all to start owning that it is a lot of work and that it does take strategy because you know and and for men to pretend like it doesn't that that that this isn't part of the game you know like and if we don't name it you know if we keep trying to pretend like no I just woke up like this you know I want you to know how much work I want my I want my I want my husband I made sure he understood me traveling with you and you traveling different different burden dude different burden it's so refreshing because again I've seen obviously critics online being like oh my gosh this is just this isn't for the time we don't need to hear about the nice dresses you're wearing and I'm like that that's the complete that's that you're actually feeding into why she had to write the book because that's the exact point that you're still just seeing it as surface level takes people to read the book right and this is what politics are right I mean you know I've been in the political world I am affiliated I understand it you know it's like you don't know me right so you see the book anybody who's known me my career my life the book other books I've written which is why this book is the third book not the first book because I was like yeah talking about fashion you know you know you got to lay a foundation for it got to ease them in got to ease them in but it's also like if you know me you know I'm just not that person I'm not the person that's just gonna talk about some dresses right no you're not Michelle it's gotta have a meaning behind it so what I would just say to people is pick it up and read it first that's all as opposed to reading a review about it or reading a review of somebody who would never like me who has already as a predisposed opinion which exists in this country this is this is really a book about self-determination who we are as women how it's about the team of people that help us and it's an industry and a business and it's a billion dollar business and what stylist and makeup artists do is not just this fun little thing you know that many of us don't have the time the luxury to do it but this expectation is still there so we if we don't talk about if we don't have to talk about fashion then let's make it irrelevant then why are there dress code and why are people commenting about people's hair why why why are we doing any of it you know it puts us in a trap in a way but it can also be fun with I know it's like such a good point it's like it can have such a fun freedom to it but we would be remiss to not acknowledge everything that you've said in this book so brilliantly of just like yes but guys we have to acknowledge that women just have such a different standard that were held to and I appreciate you acknowledging that yes there is a different level of privilege as the two of us sitting here right now and the outfit choices that we're making yes we can decide to send a message that we're wearing but it a lot of times right now in our position we are not being held to will you wore that so you're not going to get the job now but if you rewound to our lives like when I was a younger girl I did dress a specific way because I knew I was in a male dominated industry and I knew I would have a better time if I wore a tighter shirt because the guy would maybe give me more attention what I did with that though is so important and I appreciate you acknowledging that it's like don't lose yourself to the game of the misogyny that we all get wrapped into and I want to talk about social media with you because this plays into it where that's the newest arena where women are being objectified and I emphasize newest we've been objectified for forever since day one but this is this is new you've talked about how women and girls are demeaned devalued and disrespected especially online now and we have studies to back it up right mental health issues body image issues self esteem issues one really sad reality of this is that it's not just men tearing women down this is women it's more often women tearing each other down and that's even more painful yeah because it's sadly I hate to say it we expect it from men and so it hurts that much more when it is another woman doing it to another woman how did you deal when women came at you and do you have advice for women who are victims of you know being unfairly targeted I mean it's it's you know surprisingly yeah it would hurt more coming from a woman because it's like wow you know you know you know what we're going through but here's what helps me and it doesn't you know it it it it takes time maturity to kind of come to peace with this um but in order to keep myself saying in the midst of this on all levels I just try to wonder what's going on in the mind of the person who can go there right and when I think about women attacking women it it is always rooted in the insecurity and lack of self esteem that it is rampant in our culture like we're set up to feel badly about ourselves right and then to turn against ourselves and then to turn on each other um it's a doggy dog world out there um so I try to humanize my victimizer and say something happened to you something is you know some something is tearing away and it doesn't have and it doesn't have to do with me right I am I might have been the closest easiest target for you at the time um but let me so that I can stay sane and wake up and show up well with people because as first lady that's ultimately my job I mean I couldn't let something break me to the point where I got so cynical and despondent about the whole of this country like to me it's like it was it's my job to believe in America to believe in our utter deep goodness because that is true that is the you know and when people go astray it's because of something that happened to them a brokenness and that helps me right size my feelings um I agree with you because I think especially with therapy and you know we have psychology right we know through psychology that women that are attacking other women it's like there is an insecurity there is a pain and a lot of times I think online especially the conversation does stop there though of oh she's just jealous or she's insecure she's going through something I mean I think the term mean girl for the millennial and Gen Z generation it has been so present in their vernacular it is at the forefront of the way that they speak and they look at each other she's a mean girl she's a mean girl she's not a mean girl I guess my question though to you would be if we know this if these people are in pain then how do we solve this issue like how can the women who are bullying and abusing redirect that anger and that insecurity not on to other women but to where yeah yeah that one of the reasons why I focus so much of my energy in the White House in in my post White House years on just working on issues of women and girls and their empowerment and self-esteem you know the we're not focused on that strategically or politically when we you know we have it had conversations in a long time just about education and the education system or what what kind of after school opportunities are there for kids I mean you know we as a society aren't talking about a lot these days about how we are nurturing and protecting our kids so now every body is taking it on individually right so what do I do with my girls I'm trying to make sure that they feel seen in their household because they you know and I'm trying to sign them up for activities that make them feel strong and to build confidence and you know I'm doing that for myself and I'm staying healthy and you know but how do you deal with the problem systemically yeah that's where government and taxpayers and people caring about one another and caring about our kids it happens because we give wonderful places for kids girls to land you know um I think you know kids need to young girls need to be in groups you know girls out groups and opportunities they need to be able to play sports and they need to be able to you they need to have access to things they get them out of their loneliness and off of their phone and and get their brains and bodies working right so so it's a I think it's just such a big you know I know we could be here right right weeks and days talking about this because you're right it is such a systemic issue I couldn't help but think too when you're talking about you know bring women together and and I know how you talk a lot about your kitchen table girlfriends and how integral they have been to your life and I think every woman can feel that when you have your girlfriends like you say you know love Brock but they're your sanity yeah those girls we get each other the flip side though is still living in this patriarchal society it breeds competition between women because there is not enough room for all of us so there there's 90 people in the room and the three women are coming in how can you not feel competitive and and then I think about you in the situation it's like by society standard now you are the friend to be jealous of right how have you worked through the competitive dynamics with girlfriends and tried to keep it not competitive well some of it is like how you pick and choose right so in the light when I talked about the kitchen table it's like you've got to be really smart and selective about who you let in who you let stay in who who you let out you know who who is ready to follow the path that you want to go on right and that that's practice right one of the things that I say to my girls and to young girls it's like don't be afraid to make friends you know be open stay open and I always want to my girls no matter what they were going through it's like try on new people and and let them in because you're strong enough to deal with somebody who might disappoint you because sometimes people disappoint you and if they disappoint you in a way that's dangerous let them out quickly you know slow-ghost get them get a move on trust you and the more you practice it the more you you you recognize it quicker you know and it's so for me I I think I choose well first of all um and so it starts there and again that takes practice you learn that over time you learn yourself um and once my friends are in in my journey we're all going together you know I mean it's just it's not it's never just my journey it's like you're coming you know let's do this you know I had to do that really proactively it's first lady because we lived in this bubble and if I wasn't proactive about maintaining my relationships with my friends everybody could have easily slipped away you didn't have my phone number you can't walk up to my door and just girl what's up to it's like nope you gotta go through eight rounds of security you know hand in your social security card you got it you know you get you get a it's a whole to do you know it's like hey hi man it's front you know I would understand it's like you know what I give up so right you know it's a good point so that's why I said even making friends is first lady I didn't like write that off I was like I'm gonna have to really extend myself for a new mother to be like okay Sasha's coming over for a sleepover we're gonna need to know your social security number we're gonna there's gonna be a sweep of your home they're gonna find out they want to know about whether you have guns in the house or drugs they won't take them from you but they need to know there will be men standing out so what time do you want to come by okay they're like I don't know anymore you know that that kind of helps you it's like okay you ready you you ready you ready let's go um so I just for me um I just I take my friends with me as much as possible so you're coming with me we're doing you know we're doing boot camps you know once a quarter we're going on trips we're planning the mother daughter ski trip we're and a lot of times I would take the lead because you you know you can't schedule me you know so realizing those limitations and I think when you're all kind of even if people aren't rising or doing the same thing I found that if my friends feel like I see them and I'm like I want you on my journey and we're all gonna we're all gonna enjoy this together it's not me and you I found that that's the way I've kept this sort of am I the friend to be jealous of it's like we're all we're we're all going up this mountain together I mean I think that my audience needs to hear that because I think it's it's very present right now and a lot of people's lives we've got a lot of you know 18 to 30 40 year olds listening and it's like you're leaving maybe college did you get the job who's moving who's got the boyfriend who's got the thing and it's there's so much clouded competition because you think oh god she got married first and I haven't yet or she had the kid and I didn't yet well because this is what we're doing is we're checking boxes right and social media kind of you know it exacerbates that because now you know what everybody is doing and and everybody's only posting the good things that they're doing the thing that I want the listeners to know young women is that the value of cultivating friendships is important it's as important it's as as important as the degree that you got in college it's as important as the job title and the salary or the dude you're trying to you know catch or the the length of your veil on your wedding dress like that all that stuff comes and goes I don't even remember I remember my wedding you know I have the pictures it was a wonderful day but my friendships those relationships are important and I just want you know in the the the the advent of technology and social media it's almost like we're telling people you're okay by yourself all you needed your phones some apps and success and what I'm saying is no you need friends and you have to work on that that means you have to be a good friend that means you have to put down your stuff and prioritize your friendships if you want to have them let's talk about that yeah because there's so much pressure on women to present as perfect right and then get validated for it and especially you just said on social media but you think back in the day two magazines come out a month and it doesn't mean that there's not you know scrutinizing and comparing and everyone looking at it but it's endless now it is 24 seven all day the photoshopps and airbrush and we're curating and we're carefully you know designing how we want people to think about us can you talk a little bit to perfection and how so many women and girls feel like they need to reach this unattainable goal yeah oh I mean I'm generationally kind of that's it's it's the experience that young women girls are you know having now it is foreign to me I you know I didn't with my gen I'm good I'm gonna be 62 I'm an old lady oh you're I'm like my grandmother right that's I'm counting the days and going you know what when I thought my grandmother was old she was my age right stop no but with as fast as things have changed we are in the midst of one of them a major industrial revolution it was it's like the creation of electricity right the TV like this is new right and I'm of the old guard right so I don't I don't have the habit I'm not hooked on it like I'm still picking up a book I'm still calling a friend right I don't even know why you would want to be lonely like why are you alone it's like don't do that you know sounds so good when you say it go to the coffee shop you know don't order the thing in just get out right go to the gym you know just because you can be by yourself don't don't do it so um so that it is foreign to me the the pressure that you guys feel um but I get it I get it um what I want to tell people young women is get off the phone I really do it's like it's a habit it's not a need and I'm not saying get rid of it I'm just saying you got to get off of the phone and start investing in your in real life stuff and experience and we go as far to say like it it's an addiction yes think about it's it's intended to be right like an addiction no generation prior to this yeah had four year olds being addicted to something five year olds six year olds ten year olds we have addiction right now that the we we cannot stop I am hoping Alex that the the learning curve is going to be quick right because we didn't know right it's this is so new you know um and now we're starting to get the statistics in on depression this is real it's it's the the dip in the rise in depression is directly connected and linked to the creation and rise of social media and I'm hoping that the society parents will start understanding that this isn't just a free-for-all thing they're great things about it but there are a lot of problems with it so we have to stop we we have to start regulating well we have to start regulating also because I've you know I've interfaced with some young kids and I'll be like why do you want to have this phone over this phone or why do you not want to do like take your phone and put it away for a while and they're like because if I don't see it then I go to school tomorrow and I am the only person in the class that is not aware of what the entire rest of the class was talking about so then there's like a bullying element and there's an alienization that's happening where you're like I don't want to be the only kid that's not clued in and tapped in so then it cannot be one kid trying to lead the pack and it can't be right and that's some of the experts have said it Jonathan Hight Scott Galway a lot of people who've written books about it have said that it would be a lot better if parents and communities made these decisions together right so that you you know but we're still a long way from that we're still figuring that out in the mean time I don't know that I have a my message is the old school message of no one is perfect that stuff isn't real it is just not real at all and so why write this book and try to talk openly is that if people are listening to me and I'm saying that look this face it takes work to do and I'm not trying to have a full face every day you know I wear makeup when I'm going to be on TV right the that no one is living these great lives it's just I know that because I live a really great life and it's not always perfect um it's it's it's a message that I don't know lands because it's rooted in what I know is the truth and all I can say is how do I know because I know um and so don't don't feed into it don't feed into it because and I and I can also say I know a lot of these people that you're looking at I know a lot of these celebrities girl same right trust us right it's like it's not exactly what it seems and this is work they're getting paid for it right and I think something that you um you know talking about even just like there needs to be actual change and we need to organizationally come together it is similar to what we're talking about with women and change right and I think especially with social media the amplification of aging and the conversation about aging around women there are billion dollar brands that are pushing anti-aging AK saying as a woman gets older it is a bad thing to age meanwhile it is a privilege to age but we have been warped to believe put this cream on or inject this thing into your face and then you will be deemed more worthy to society in your book you talk about aging right and embracing new seasons of life rather than freaking out over you know a gray hair or a wrinkle but how do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women how do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women well I always say that we just you know men get older and wiser and esteemed right women we just get old right yeah it's crazy but the truth is that like I my 60s are the best time of my life that's all it's it's the canary in the coal mine I'm just telling you ladies girls like it gets better and better and better you know um yeah the youth your skinny waist when you're 20 yeah but you have no money you don't know what to do with it I mean it's like man it's and it's it's hard you know you're confused all your 20s and 30s and I'm just telling people you're right yes it's confusing and it feels painful but it's it gets better and so for me I'm also you know what we aren't what we don't do is celebrate the wisdom of older women right I mean there's so much that older women know for sure like it's like we were there I got the answer I can really like I know I I did it right I'm not saying I know because I'm smarter I just tried all that I failed that doesn't you know you can literally go that's not gonna work for you doesn't mean you're not gonna try it but when it doesn't like I can tell you don't feel bad Lee that you failed because it wasn't ever going to work and there was only one way to learn that is that you did it and it's okay that you did like there's so much we have to offer but what do we do we instead of you know podcast and blogs and social media being run by really wise women who actually have facts right it's a bunch of kids who are like you don't know you I know you don't know I mean like I love a parenting blog for sure you know when it comes to the best bottle and the new contraptions because it that stuff is better yes like I'm like wow wish I had that stroller that you can just pop and close but like who do I want to listen to on like childhood behavioral stuff I want to talk to a woman a parent not just woman I want to see what your adult children look like I just want to meet facts before I figure out whether I'm going to follow your theory because when you're young you don't know you're just living it you're just living you're testing it and so I think the social you know the social connection of mother young mothers or young parents struggling that's a cool thing but guess who has some real wisdom around like I tried this and it failed like this really but where are those bloggers where those conversations happening and where are young women just coming to ask to say well let me you know sit down with my moms and my aunts it's such a good point Michelle but then again I think because of the the competition and the misogyny and how warped our brains are I see women in the comments section saying aren't you too old to be doing that aren't you too be old to be doing this and so but again it's all projection it's the fear of getting older it's like how can the absence or the presence of wrinkles on my forehead dictate the the like words that are coming out of my mouth and how much you actually respect them or don't respect them and so aging for women it's this fear when really again like you said for men it's like we're washed up there wise yeah it gives them integrity yeah we're irrelevant and so there's this push and pull that I think at some point you're right women have to look inward and start to say why am I not tapping into this older generation who is looking down being like the hands out we got you girls and I think those are great conversations for young women to have with one another right because I think I haven't met an older woman that isn't like any like you want to know you're asking yes sit down let's talk I don't want you to fail I want you to be better than me because now I really am not competing like all that stuff that was going on you we learned it didn't help it didn't it just messed up a lot of stuff so now you know we can really look at that generate at least I know I'm in that place no it's a great point like the favorite thing I have to do which is impart some something that I learned to somebody younger yeah that's why speaking of you know you have this wisdom you have talked about the gender gap when it comes to confidence as women we are you know often doubted and underestimated by others and ourselves we struggle with imposter syndrome while men walk around with what you call unearned confidence as someone who has been such a symbol of strength for women around the world when did you doubt yourself the most and how did you get through those periods wow um you know your 20s and 30s are tough times right because I always I've learned or felt that women were less or at least I was less likely to claim what I knew because I was always there was always maybe I don't know and well and I don't want to I don't want to sound too pompous or let me not cut you off um you know we're we're we're more socialized to don't step on toes because then you're bossy you know there's also a little smackdown of it you know it's like well if you're if you're a little too aggressive now you're aggressive you're you're not so sometimes those labels happen and we get them I mean my my own mother I was she was like you're a bossy I'm the bossy one you know it's like I felt like the bossy one my whole life and I know a lot of outspoken young girls who were labeled as the bossy ones in their family when they were probably the ones that like had good instincts and were organized and had opinions and you know so that stuff is actually happening to us it's not in our minds right it's like self-doubt because you are young and you are figuring it out and so the imposter syndrome I you know in your book I love how you talk about this because you talk about the tension that we often face as women between wanting to be viewed as both a woman of substance and a woman of style and so right in other words it's like you want to be respected for your brain and you also you want to be cool you want to have a career and you want to have a romantic relationship you somehow managed multiple identities at the same time you were an attorney and you were on the cover of Oak you were known as mom and chief and you were meeting with the leaders of foreign countries how did you nurture all of those identities and stay whole because this is so relevant to my audience right now they're struggling to be multiple things at once and feel confident about what I've come to learn is that this how can you have it all yes not at the same time and I think that we beat ourselves up because here's what I there are a lot a lot of women who are listening a lot of women period who I will call 120% that means that just showing up means we're not just showing up we're excelling because we've always had to do that to get us seated the table we have to be smarter and brighter and and we kind of do because if you slip up you know you don't necessarily get a second chance or the benefit of the doubt or so we've been trained to do that so now we're operating like that and trying to do it with everything that we're doing and 120% plus 120% plus 120% adds up to crazy an immense break exactly so one of the things I had to learn is that like a lot of times my 50% is good enough but I have to first be okay with it right so when it came to raising my kids and keeping my job when I felt the push of I don't know if I'm like am I there for my kids like I want to like I had to stop breastfeeding and I had to do this and I had to go back but I like having the salary and be able to pay up down our student debt and why walk away from that um what I realized was like okay I can't be driving hard at my job at this time my husband is in politics he has three jobs somebody's got to take it down a notch so I I've learned to stay in the car keep your foot on the gas but just don't floor it all the time on all things you don't that doesn't mean you have to break that in may have to pull the car over and get out it just means that there will be aspects of parts of those yourself that you can't go 120% and then that means that we as women have to accept a little bit less from ourselves than we're used to and that that takes you have to just get used to that and it's all in here right it's it's all the internal message like if you have a job maybe you aren't going to be able to make homemade baby food you know and guess what like I loved the jar face like there was nothing better than that dinner I was like whoa oh I like when they started needing real real food I was like oh curses I got a cook but that stage of you know sweet potatoes I loved it and I'd just go to the grocery store I'd be like look at mom figure you're gonna have a little beef here a little carrot in a jar I you know I mean I love it I love it it's so real though so you have to be kind of okay with that's not going to kill him or maybe you you can't breastfeed for a year because you can't you don't like it your body is enabled to you had to go back to work baby's gonna be fine you know I mean with our parents didn't even breastfeed I mean there was a generation of women that were told so like here you go I am a formula baby 5 11 brains working just fine just a little just a little bit just a little bit you know so you know we have to take some pressure off of ourselves it's like why are we trying to bounce back what's the bounce back what's the you're gonna have a baby your whole body is twisted up and then you want to like be back at the gym doing solid core at the why why are we doing this to ourselves and I think the comparison for women when especially mothers I've seen again because social media it just is non-stop we don't know what everyone's going through so we're lying yes they're lying and so when you're saying you're popping the jar open and you put it on the plate you're taking a picture of the plate you're like look at the field I made and you know it's just like let's not do that to each other let's be more honest about the struggle I'm trying I try to do that you know and I am constantly telling young mothers like it's coming right you don't have to get off your career track and I don't even recommend it because kids grow up fast and then they're gone like you've sacrificed everything and you know when they leave they leave they close the door and act like you never sacrifice they're like I remember you I don't need you anymore right so what I'm like you better have saved something for yourself so that when that period comes and they're ready to move on and you're also not holding on longer because now what do I'm gonna do I devoted everything to you and I need to now I've got to fill my time so I always encourage people to hang in there and keep something for yourself throughout this process but that means you don't you're maybe you're not gonna be VP in five years like if you have in your mind that there's a track and there's only one way to do it that's what trips us up a lot of times like I'm gonna be partner by the time I'm 28 hey look if you live until you're 80 90 there's so much time there's so much and I tell people look I had to get off a track and take pay cuts and come back sacrifice because my husband was president you know yeah yeah that that was kind of a you know so um but in the midst of that I still managed to be a lawyer running on profit I can run down the list be an author you know I raised really same kids who you know aren't perfect but I they're really really good um so there is time but we have to be we have to give ourselves a lot more grace in the process that with that that's what I've learned giving myself grace it's like yeah I'm not I'm not getting it all right and and then we we as women have to be we have to support each other we just really have to stop being a part of the fantasy you know um it's it's not serving us it's not true you know and it's okay to not be happy sometimes like that's also a thing you you know like not being perfectly satisfied and in the exact place that you want every part of your life is that like that's what life is yeah that's what life is and I love how you said like but I understand that society makes women feel like they have to be perfect so when it's very uncomfortable at first when you're like I'm not succeeding and I'm not doing the best like it reminds me um in your memoir how you would tell your girls to always start dinner even if your husband hadn't come home yet because I didn't want them to ever believe that life began when the man of the house arrived home we didn't wait for dad it was his job to now catch up with us I think society puts such a pressure on women to prioritize finding a man over finding a career and a life that they love as women I would love your wisdom and advice of like how do we prioritize finding fulfillment within ourselves first before finding fulfillment in a marriage or a partnership I think it starts with the subliminal messages that we send our our girls um and I'm really I have two beautiful daughters and you know you find yourself slipping up and going are you dating anyone and uh it's like like let me not make that the first question or the second question or a question at all like let me you know um because I hear it being asked you run out of stuff to say to a young girl it's like you dating anyone um you know it's like I just in our girl group I'm when it comes up and we do that I try to talk to my mom friends about it and what what that's doing what are our own insecurities as mothers like that we're like well you seem happy and you're on a track but do you have a boyfriend like like that you know so bad it's just a it's a when you break it down like that it's like those are the little things that no matter what and then despite what your parents say it's just a social pressure you see everybody getting married you so I think we have to be mindful of the the way we craft questions to our not just our daughters but our sons how we talk about what happiness is and we have to work hard to separate our fears and insecurities as parents uh we have to separate that from our kids right because we're still carrying these old images we are still programmed we are still of a generation where that's what women did you went to we did go to college we were different they were there was the expectation that you went to college we all got our degrees but everybody started getting their MRS as they called it out of college and that was also a part of it and you'd have a career but you'd do it until you got pregnant you know so we have to admit that women of my generation there was a there was a path and we and we carry that with us um and we imprint that onto our kids as like this is the way that I know that you'll be happy so I can stop worrying about you and I can know that you'll have a good life it's such a good point of like you know putting the former beliefs and system onto the new generations because like you even think about it like why do women have miss misses and then miss and men never change from Mr they are you're just you're always you once again you don't have to evolve see we we're even evolving what do I know we're changing right you know it's like I went through that too when I got mayor and I was like okay I'm gonna meet Michelle Robinson Obama all right I did that I was I was in a real career and I felt like this is a lot of name it feels like a little silly like Michelle Robinson Obama hello I did that for like a month and I was like okay that that's I'm tired you know I got to write that down that's long three syllables for three names too much it's too much so I was like okay let me pick one and I stuck with Obama because I had a brother I didn't come from a family that my father was like you carry their name you know it was like it's a name um and I was like Obama's really strange name so let's all just be this strange name together you know let's just all take it on you know it's a good name I'll take it okay but that was the that was the thought it's like let me just pick but he didn't he wasn't going through this he wasn't changing his license and his social security number and you know he you know so yeah another way that we evolve and it's another way to send a subliminal message that it is up to us to do the evolving it is and I love how you've spoken about um societies expectations were discussing obviously of women to stay nice and to stay passive and small and how hard it is if you are a driven and vicious woman trying to make a big impact when we talk about dating for my audience so many women I think then if they are going against the societal norms and they're like okay I'm going to focus on myself I'm going to pour into myself I'm going to focus on being an individual I don't need a man I want a man but I don't need a man then it brings the whole caliber of oh god then you have to potentially shrink yourself when you do find a man because you're so sure of yourself and that is terrifying for most men and so they're threatened and you're kind of trying to play the game and you can't be your full self did you ever feel like you had to do that when you first met Barack Obama and you were an experienced lawyer and he was you know a summer associate yeah um fortunately it was one of the things that drew me to him you know like I didn't have to I didn't have to change my fundamental self I think it helped that we started out that summer with me not seeing him as a potential because I was his advisor and I was like yeah no we're not going to do that right um and why you know he's cute but I have a lot of friends and so I think that helped right because I wasn't we didn't start up our relationship as oh I'm going to try to hmm yeah you know it may be it would have but I think we kind of entered it you know as as peers you know and we developed our relationship because we had the same kind of humor and we'd make the same kind of jokes and we find the same things kind of corny you know um and I was being fully myself cynical and ways and yeah I'd pick at it pick at him and be like that's weird why do you do that I mean so the fact that that made him think we should date right it's like that met that like that didn't repel him that was like he was like and I was like no we shouldn't date because that looks tacky and it was like I don't care what people say um so it's like you know so what do I tell a lot of young girls like dating different people help me to see the difference in who Barack was when he showed up I don't you know if he had been the first person I dated because I just didn't date I might have taken that for granted I might have thought yeah well that these are buddy vibes right um I had learned enough to know this is this is different in a in an important way um and I just think that's the experience of dating different people and noticing in in the end it's I want young listeners to focus more on their internal feelings there's like really instead of what is happened what what the world is telling you to feel really start trusting your gut and building that internal gut um of how you feel about other people how you feel about yourself in I because I think in the end the work is still within like the only thing you really can can control is you in this world and even in my marriage now you know you go through the period of I want him to be different I want him to do this differently I've grown to know I don't have control over him just like he doesn't have control over me so let me do my work and let him do our work and together we come together as whole people and so I want our our our listeners because they're mine now yeah right bring them in Michelle like let's do do the work on self like start feeling good about yourself start working on your health start feeling strong within yourself start practicing self-esteem start working on building your relationships and your friendships you know work on being as whole as you can be because you can't control who's going to love you who's going to like you who's going to give you a job who's going to see you the way you want to be seen because everybody has their own stuff and so you can't define yourself by other people's stuff so like how do we become more confident individuals we have to practice that work on ourselves we have to know pick apart those aspects of our childhood that we carry around I am a believer in therapy I am I am in I go to therapy we've been in couples therapy I believe in the practice of having those conversations with objective people who help you piece through that stuff and it's a constant it's it's constant work you don't get to a point where like I'm there I'm done good it's over right and then so I don't want people to be intimidated by like this is what life is we were ever growing evolving improving there isn't like a finish line where you get an A and you're now a whole person perfectly it it I'm 62 it doesn't happen my mother was 86 when she died and there were parts of her that she was still building upon and so it's not in your 80s you know I had a great conversation with Jane Fonda and Beth Ann Hartison on my podcast about aging in the public eye they're still having those conversations with themselves about evolving and I think that that is the power that we have as women is that we know we have to keep evolving and so we do a lot of men don't they don't it's so true I um they're just like here and proud of it right because they've worn these same pants for toy it's like don't say that like that's not cool it's not impressive it's not impressive no it's so inspiring the way that you are speaking about this because um I remember I was so fortunate I got to interview Jane Goodall and she talked a lot about how she was still pushing and she was still going because she still wanted to learn and I think having an appetite to learn means you want to change and you want to evolve and you want to grow and I agree with you the power of this system basically fucking us being like you're not enough and you need to be this it does force us to constantly have our head on a swivel so in a beautiful way you have to find the positives we're forced to be so multifaceted and we're forced to know who we are in so many different lanes and we're also forced at every 18 21 30 40 50 60 80 we have to constantly be thinking how we're evolving because society is forcing us to do that but if we can use it to our advantage that's when you become a self we can give our self grace in the process because in the end I think we're all just too hard on ourselves that it starts there right and so you're your you're your first fan and if your first fan is like you're just kicking your ass like of course you're mad and bitchy and want to beat the other woman of course that you're competitive within yourself right and so that's where it splatters out onto everything else and I think that women we need to be kinders to ourselves really gentler you know the anger that can come up with the double standards I just want to make sure we hit on this because I feel a lot of in a beautiful way yes are there is a lot going on with these these generations but we are vocal and people are saying how they feel but it is crazy how the world still punishes outspoken women and judges us more harshly than men who literally say the exact same thing as us right at the beginning of your husband's first campaign you were labeled an angry black woman because you were speaking assertively and honestly and passionately yeah you referenced that earlier how they turned passion into anger anger what advice would you give to strong women in this upcoming generation right now who are listening who have been labeled a bitch or too much or too passionate and they're doing the same exact thing is their male counterparts yeah yeah well there's you know there's still strategy in in all of it right you know what I found that I had to do I had to be more thoughtful about my tone I didn't agree with it right but I was like until people get to know me okay let me smile a little bit more let me make sure I smile right but sometimes I'm talking and it's like yeah and that's the photo they get ah right so that's on the front page I was like I didn't feel that way but that was in the middle and I don't I didn't like this but I'm like okay we're we're we still live in a society that has a different standard for women so it's just like with fashion let me let me understand the game and let me let me let me play the game all right so instead of being angry about being called angry as like okay let me be careful about doing extemporaneous speaking right because I can do it but then I launch right that's why I do more speeches publicly because I can take time and think about what I want to say and how I want to say it and sort of think about you know how I come off I think now the more people have gotten to know me right at this stage in my life I feel like this is why I say okay if you know me you know you've heard me enough you know my heart you know yeah I can be funny but angry eh nah not really I'm not that angry about that my I am angry about stuff I'm angry about injustice unfairness I hate bullies there's a lot I'm angry about and I and I feel justified in being angry about it so all right you got me I am angry about some things but generally right but it takes some time to earn that right so as I'm talking to younger women it's like understand how people are going to come at you you know and then think about how you want to deal with that because it's it's not going to go away so what's your strategy of understanding that this is part of the game that it that it doesn't define you but if you're like I think it is more important for me to get the point across than to be right about how I do it especially in the world that we're in which was it's the country right so I mind it wasn't about me it's not how I feel like to me that's what you the responsibility of being a leader that's not your feelings anymore like I can have my feelings now because everything I'm doing is about me but when I was first lady and when I'm doing public things it's like okay my ego so how do I how do I get this to work you know um that's what I think about and if if I'm if I'm delivering something in a way that makes the message fall short on some years then I'm going to change it because I want people to get the message it doesn't matter how I feel I'm okay with making some changes to get this thing done right it's such good advice Michelle like even for myself personally I'm I feel like a sponge right now I'm like keep talking just keep going like how much more time we have because it's so relevant to the way that women live right now it's like there are more ambitious women than ever which is amazing there are women working we finally are allowed to vote we all have credit cards great now we actually have ambition and we're trying and it isn't uphill battle but we are being met with like we I just had the same thing as him why didn't that work yeah it is we have to acknowledge the game and I think for a while potentially especially with feminists and everything we felt weird being like no play the game because it feels like we are twisting something and we're being sneaky and it's like no no no no we are the other we are the other so when we are coming in it's we're always playing someone else's game as women we are the other sex so it's okay if you are trying to move a certain way because we live in a man's world and so you have to sometimes play Kate and smile and do these things but if you get your message across that's kind of all that matters if you get we want to get done and the other piece of that is that when we do have power let's just not become male versions of the thing that was oh feet female versions of the thing that was broken you know because a lot of this has to do with leverage right so if you if you don't have the power to change it then you've got to work to get the power and sometimes their compromise is that have to be made to get the power and then when you get the power when you're the boss when you're running your own thing then how do you behave as the leader that like then like because this is your culture you're setting when you're in charge of the culture and if you're still if if you're perpetuating the game then you're a problem and not improving it yeah you know that means that then you lost the plot on the way in so like as we're being ambitious women when we do get that thing then who are you in it how are you changing culture how are you shifting or you just repeating the mistakes that made you play the game in the first place the game is to get the power to have impact to broaden the aperture of what is possible but when we do have the power if we're if we're oppressing if we're shouting down if we're not including if you know if you're in charge of the dress code change it you know if if you are the head of HR and there are ways that you can make life easier for you know working mothers and families then be the advocate at the table and don't say well I had to when I you know that I didn't have this when I was there so you have to pay the same dues like change yeah be the change and don't like you don't want everybody to have to pay your dues if you know the dues were there then open it up for your the next generation make your seat the seat that makes it easier for others like you to be there something as you're saying that to bring men into this conversation um which I was watching your speech in 2016 today um when you were the whole speech was really about women and you were um you know there for Hillary and it was such a beautiful moment because you're like and men men listening and I think sometimes I don't want ever to have men leave the conversation like and be like oh I guess not about me yeah it's not about me and it's us against you and it's a whole thing so I think to bring men into this conversation you've talked about some really important male figures in your life you've talked about your father your brother your husband how do we bring men in and make them allies and partners to help solve these issues because women cannot do this alone we need them no no I mean look I I as the older I get I realized how blessed and rare my existence was as a woman in the world to be surrounded by so many amazing men where I was always safe like like in realizing that like that's more unique like abuse neglect none of it I had uncles and brothers and you know grand both of my grandfathers right I now understand how rare that is like it's sad and it makes me sad to know that so many of us women and girls don't can't say that that they had someone in their life that that harmed them in some way they were harmed at the hands of a man that they couldn't trust um I didn't have that um and I feel blessed and I understand that's unique so in that sense we can't lump men into a category right because there are a lot of allies you know they they're different from us they you know we can joke it's like yeah you're not that good at that and you're you know but I I have I've grown up with wonderful men who my the men in my life may help me with this confidence you know I was always a part of the of the crew I was never the little girl out my father always thought he's gonna learn a box you're gonna learn a box you know my brother protected me right um so we can't forget that there are so many good men that you know it isn't enough against them and we're the ones raising them still yes you know um we we have so much to uh impact in to how our young men are shaped as mothers and as women in the in the world and so we have to see them as essential allies from the the moment they show up in the world so but we can't love them into a complacency or in capability you know we're always building the men that we want um and so my message to those men you know when I'm you know room full of CEOs and men the thing I I say to them assuming that I'm talking to all the good ones it's like I know you love your daughters right because we're of a generation now where the way my father fathered me is not unique anymore like now we have fathers who want their little girls to be CEOs like like you raise them and you want them to believe that they can be anything right and so now you're in power so the question is are you building the world that you told your little girl existed right are you can you look around the sea suite that you run and say that the little girl that I put all these thoughts and ideas in that she'll be safe at this table that I've created and that I control and I'm I'm hoping that if men think about the tables they're creating and they're not just looking at the women they don't know women that are not their children they you know it's like men don't raise us right so maybe they don't see us as part of them but maybe if you see your daughter at the table that you'll do the work to make the table a place that will respect and honor the the the world that you told her she could have because I always say then if you don't you would line to her because she's gonna enter this world with the beliefs that you built her up you know you built her up you set her up and that can be crushing and it's interesting when I put it that way like those rooms can go a little quiet in a way that I think I don't know that they're are men thinking about that allyship in that way like putting themselves in the role of their daughters that they're raising right but that's why even just this conversation Michelle it's like I can already see it just like clipping that having that out there for people to consume what you're just saying like I do think I can recognize as a woman as much as you can go my god like I hate these fricking men that yeah is going to help all of us get closer to this goal of we do deserve to be equal to men we really do and we still aren't and so it's like you have to allow the people who are in the position of power to let us in and so to completely alienate them I think a lot of men in this generation are like I don't even know what I'm supposed to do I guess like women just fucking hate me I'm just gonna sit over here and it's like no no no no do not we cannot lose their attention and I think this message is important yeah you said that not going to trumps inauguration was an act of getting even more comfortable saying no regardless of what people think which was so powerful because as women that's how we're trained people please say yes at all costs has getting comfortable with saying no changed your perspective about your very famous line when they go low we go high and do you think that the message still applies given the enormity of what women are up against today yeah I you know I in the light I tried to I I tackled that question do we still go high right and I and I start by saying like the point what going high means to me is what we talk getting to the solution it's it's outcome determinative right like what are we what is our strategic goal and going high means that we are working strategically towards that goal with a plan and some objectives and and it's not purely emotional right that doesn't mean that emotions don't exist because they do I do feel anger I do feel pain and hurt but if my anger is leading and it doesn't work then what's what are we doing now I'm just indulging myself now I'm just having a tantrum you know and some people want that they're like I want to see you have the tantrum that I want to have right I was like but if the tantrum's not going to work then what is the point and when you're a leader in my mind you should have a point other than self indulgent you know indulging your your anger right because we can get lost in that so going high to me is feel the feelings but where are you trying to go with them and let that lead that's what going high is thinking before you talk I mean we we teach our kids that I mean that's what it is it's like count to ten you know because like how I feel at the kitchen table like like that's what the kitchen table is for like get all that out say all the things you want to say and then look at it and say is that how you really feel because usually after you step back a little bit and it's like yeah well I would take that out and I said all of them and always I use the lot of absolutes that's not true now that I'm on 10 so let me let me refreign refine refine that a little bit let me take that and then you'll find out that half the stuff you threw out there in anger isn't even true and it's not how you really feel so now you should go out and communicate what you really feel really clearly that you think will look that's that's what going high is so yeah I think we should always be trying to go high and I think is anybody with a platform a powerful platform it's a responsibility right because that that that platform is powerful like the words you say move people and you can move them to productivity or you can move them to division you can move them to hate it is like anybody with a platform can do that so now we now have a responsibility if you want the platform then be it's like a gun like learn how to use it put the safety lock on you know because you can cause a lot of damage but you can also do a lot of good you know and that's what going high means and yes I still think that but have the feelings you know I'm not telling people that your feet like just like us as women yes it's not fair it sucks the the standards are double we're killing ourselves you know we're and over we're inundated with messages that are wrong um feel that don't feel like you're crazy for feeling it wrong is wrong like you know bad is bad you know and going high doesn't mean to ignore that and and we need to feel those feelings to act but how we act on those feelings is the going high part is is my point shall I need to hang out with you more um okay wow I'm just like I'm gonna like watch that back every day what you said holy shit um I want to ask you about a recent comment you made about a female presidency you said don't even look at me about running because you all are lying you're not ready for a woman you're not as a country what do we need to do to be ready like what is it going to take look we've come a long way you know um and what my husband has said and I agree with change takes time and context matters right 50 years ago we were fighting for the equal rights bill you know I mean just that's in there are people alive today you know that you know couldn't marry the opposite race you know couldn't love who you loved I mean this is recent history of a country that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years it's been going along this way and then boom there's a local change it just happened but but that means that the remnants of what has been there and what we've been socialized is really deeply embedded in who we are and whether people really feel yet that they can follow a woman as president like we would just be silly to think that there aren't just some gut kind of I don't know like we're not even analyzing what those feelings are about because we're trying to pretend like it's all better and I just think well how could it be all better you know I mean we we've been feeding off of this bone for so long it doesn't just go away it takes time right so but we're moving we are moving in that direction so that statement was you know there was the humor of it like stop looking at me right you know so that it's also my rye humor it's like come on people you know there were people who there are there are men out there that were not going to vote for a woman you know that though you people that those conversations right let's just be real about it and let's put that on the table and talk about well what's that about let's not be mad because I made the statement let's look at the fact that we've had two really qualified female candidates one who was first lady secretary of state well educated you know my husband beat her right people were more comfortable with him as a newcomer right and now we just had the former the former vice president you know we've had what we've had qualified women and they just you know again they're not perfect and they don't cross every T and dot every i there's a falling shortness that is happening that I you know I'd say look well why can't we talk about that why are we pretending that that didn't just happen I wanted also just let you know I agree with you Michelle I agree with you my question back to everyone who's like oh no we're ready it's like how could a woman hold the highest seat in the government when she has less rights than half the population yeah yeah how how would that even be how would that work we don't have legally equal rights to men how would a woman sit above met like it does it's we're not there and so there were some people even within the democratic party that disagreed with your statement publicly people came out and just said you know just because we didn't like the candidates that doesn't mean we aren't ready for a woman um well I hope so like yeah great you know and look that mean that doesn't mean that women should roll up their sleeves and call it a day you know um like we're still growing you know so yeah I think it's gonna happen are we ready now I don't know let prove prove us wrong I would love that right Michelle if this incentivize everyone to prove us wrong I'd be like really all right and I'll be the first to be like you're right you're right statement that my bad my bad we're like we pissed them off so much they're like no we'll show you yeah please let do that and look for all the young women that we're talking to do keep keep climbing if you want to be president of the United States dog gone it then yes yes you can right um so yeah this isn't about slowing down you know we keep fighting and growing and developing and evolving and learning what happened there why didn't that work but let's really talk about it because it it hasn't worked we've had women governors we just haven't been able to crack that ceiling with really great candidates so let's figure out what what's what's what's going on and in the meantime what I'm telling all young girls is keep going y'all go to college get your education continue to build those skills continue to be good be kind to yourself go into politics I am not a politician that was also the other point you know it's just a reminder it's like I am not a politician not interested in it you know just it's not who I want to be but I do want a lot of young people a lot of younger I want those who want to do it we need you we need you to want to to be so don't take that message as you can't you should keep trying keep prou- keep keep throwing the opportunity in this country's face you know and but just be strong in it and know that you may come up short because maybe we are maybe we aren't but keep going well it's like our whole conversation today I think we there again there's so much to do for women to get to that place where we are ready um okay this is I mean let me know he'll answer this one I'm just gonna try okay that's a little fun okay we're I'm talking about the future here so the future is whatever we want it to be okay so if this is all hypothetical if Trump does change the law and runs for a third term hypothetically do you think your husband would consider running I hope not I would actively work against that you know thank you world starts crying I would I wouldn't be I would be at home working against it you know and maybe a lot of people be like good we don't want him anyway and I'm like yeah that's when I right okay so you're like not interested you know I I do believe in the need for new vision right I mean the the two terms is not just about we like him we want it it's just like we're changing and growing so fast this is a hard job and it it requires new energy new new vision all the time new ways of looking at the world right so I do believe that eight years is enough like you know so and there's so many talented people out there like why why will we keep going with the same people you know I I would be a proponent for how and how are we going to build young leaders of the same people keep doing it again and again and again you know now sure turn now it's my turn now you did it again out there again it's like and there's all these young smart people who are just looking outside with their ideas as leaders get older and older you know the older you get the just you you just live a different life as an older established person and I think there's room for that wisdom but there's room for new ideas to come in you know so I am I think two terms is enough for everybody you know and it's not a question of what order it's just like we've heard and experienced your ideas this country is constantly evolving what are the next thoughts people with a new set of experiences a new set of a new take on the world this new generation is coming up they travel more they know more about the world they're exposed in a different way like I I am really really curious about their perspectives on how to fix some of this stuff like we don't have all the answers and that's okay that's why we move on yeah it's a great point it's a really great point um to close us out yeah two more questions yeah I want to end on a message of hope because yes this is it's heavy stuff but it's like in order to change in order to grow we have to have hope we have to believe that there is room absolutely move forward so first what advice do you have to women listening who feel scared and angry about the current state of things and where we are headed as a country oh it it goes back to something that I have said throughout this conversation that we we have to be mindful of the context of where we are and even this time feels difficult I would argue because we've had a lot of unfettered growth right this has been a unique time of just no war there's been no great depression um I mean if you look at the history of the country the the that's this little period why it's been you know not free of there's a lot of problems right but it's it's been a real it's been a continued shot upward and now we're kind of leveling off a little bit maybe a dip here there and that feels scary but as brought brock said that the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice it means that you don't get to the place in a straight direct route that there bends and curves along the way and we may be in a time where we're experiencing a bit of a bend a bit of a dip but we're still moving forward and that is true that's not like that's factual right as brock says all the time if you could pick any time in human history to be alive when you think of disease and poverty and science and equality and openness and access would you pick any other time to be alive then right now I know I wouldn't knowing what you know we can fantasize about Hogwarts and not you know I don't even know what what time that took place because that's not a real I do fantasy about it right but there's a lot of stuff that was broken that we didn't have that we didn't learn and we've learned it now and and we're struggling to get to that next phase but that struggle doesn't mean that we we're not making progress the other thing that I will say is like I my experiences throughout my life particularly as first lady I have seen this country up close I really I've been to many towns and communities mourned losses been on military bases you know been in homeless shelters have seen great joys and great pains but rarely am I disappointed as a whole with who we are as a people like that is my experience because I've gotten to be out there in a way that most people let alone most Americans don't we live in our little corners of the world we live on our blocks in our neighborhoods that's how we are we're humans we are packed you know we live in our small tribes that's how we are and we don't know about other tribes right we we know what we know I've had the chance to experience other tribes and I don't care what your political affiliation what religion we're all really we really are wanting and moving towards the same thing you know we want to we want to live in communities where we get along you know we want our kids to be safe and have a good education we want them to maybe be a little bit better off than we have we we were but people aren't fundamentally greedy you know my father was a working class guy he never wanted to be a millionaire he never wanted to be a tech giant or an influencer you know what my dad was which is like most men black white blue green he wanted to be able to pay his bills and feed his kids and take care of his family and maybe have health care you know he's like he wasn't competing to be the richest of the rich in fact he was like you can have that that seems complicated right I'm good to me that's most Americans and we we can get there because people most people don't want that much but we do have to support each other you know we do have to protect one another and we have to you know have policies and principles that protect the greater good and I think with the right leadership we're right we're right there you know when it when it doesn't feel fair people aren't happy you know they don't they're not they don't feel comfortable watching other people's pain I know that about this country is just a question of how do we get get out of this and it's complicated and we like answers that are quick and easy but most of the stuff is really really hard and it takes some time I don't know if that's hopeful but to me it is it is it is all possibility it is hopeful I think it's it's what we needed to hear because I agree with the immediacy everyone now is looking for such the answer immediately or else they're just like so we're doomed it's over and I didn't work yeah and I think my last question when I was thinking about that is yes at first I was kind of talking about women but like it our world does feel or our country does feel very divided today that that's a fact right it some people we can't even look at each other anymore yeah and the hate and disgust and vitriol it's so bitter like it it's the divide is so big it almost feels unfixable and sometimes I think it feels like we've turned away from seeing people's humanity that it almost feels like to the point that we've all like almost lost our own humanity because we can't relate we can't see even if we are divided on what side we're on and so to leave us with this I guess and I know it's you'd be like well do you have 10 hours but in the opposite of what you said where I'm like can you give us a quick answer Michelle can you though somehow explain in your opinion how you think we begin to repair not only what we have lost but create a new future that is actually inclusive equal and respectful of each other because right now it does not feel like we are close to that and don't you get a sense that people are not content in that yeah right so let's yeah yeah you know I think more people are starting to be outspoken about it and realizing is this what we you know and a lot of people I didn't sign up for this yes that is us speaking that is us you know that's our real hearts kind of coming to the fold I'd like to think you know it you know didn't happen right away but it's not like it's been a long long time we don't we're not like I just if everybody looks inside this isn't what we want it we want parts of it there's some things we want that mix didn't work but this I don't think we're we're happy in this state and I think that's a good sign you know I mean if if everybody were like yeah I'm good yeah I feel great married Christmas right I mean maybe I'd be like okay right but you know I'm assuming in your conversations people are starting to really we're figuring out what is it that we do want you know we we're defining a lot I don't want that I don't want that but the work is well what do we want and I do think I don't think that this young generation wants to go back have less freedoms less possibilities of who they can be in the world who they can marry who they can love who's in and who's out you know I just think we've come too far to go that far back that's what that's that's what I I have faith and I'm choosing to have faith you know um and so that those are choices and now for all our listeners it's like now we've got to do the work to look inside and figure out the parts of this that are working and what is it we have to really start having conversations about that um that that's hard to do at a time when you know our our algorithms are feeding us what we want to hear but now we know that now we're aware it's like okay you can't just get your information from your phone or your TikTok because it's feeding you yourself and so if you want to learn something else you may have to talk to people we may have to start coming out of our phones and back into communities and we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt takes a little time because we've been so mad but it hasn't been that long it hasn't it hasn't been that long so we we can remember what it felt like when we felt more connected it's such a great point and I think I think that's why I just was so excited to talk to you today because I feel like especially understandably young people I think have just like an aversion to politics right now it's just like oh my god it's all this like marketing and propaganda and like oh yeah and then again with social media we've lost the way we're we don't really know who to follow right now we don't know who to listen to right now and so that goes back to the beginning of this interview to close it out it's like I knew that we could have fun I know you're funny and I know we would have a good time to show okay trust me it's like round two you'll come back again one day but it's like we could have fun but we needed you I needed to hear from you and we needed to absorb this right now because I just felt it and I tried to have such a pulse with my audience on what they're needing and I felt this it's like going into this new year we need this fresh perspective and so I genuinely cannot thank you enough for gracing me with my time I know you are beyond busy but let me let me say Alex that part of the solution are folks like you young you're still to me you're young you're baby and I it's like proud baby way to go um but you you you've evolved and you're building you understand the power that you have to have different conversations and you know you've got this amazing audience they love you they're you know they're intrigued by you and there's a reason for that so that's power and now you're in the you're in the you're in the power seats so what do you do with that you know how do you how do you you know take what you've learned or you're learning and you know about the folks who follow you and help them see more and see things differently and you're doing just that people are listening right you know they may come in for the burger but they leave with they leave with carrot carrot wisdom um and that's always just because you're choosing you know to really think about your platform and modeling something new and that's what it's all about um look I love talking to people but I I'm I also don't want to be talking to people forever it's like your generation it's time for you all to sit in these seats and get right what we didn't get right and it's okay for us to admit that our generation we figured a lot of stuff out but we didn't fix it and that's not what the it's a it's a marathon it's a relay race I'm passing the baton to you my friend um and you can do it maybe a couple more side conversations just to like give me a little bit more more more stand touch what you talk but I am I am uh proud of what what you you're building and how you're using um your your space and that's that's gonna make a difference so keep doing what you're doing this has been so much fun and I'll talk to Barack and make sure that you know make next time I come in you know you tell him what he wants to talk about option one and he's rock option one and the headlines from this cannot be as crazy as well option one would be so anything you're stressed about power wise babe don't worry be fine in act to right there Michelle Obama thank you thank you thank you thank you it was an honor having you on call it it's great spending time with you thank you for having me and more to come more to come more to come