733 - Learning Comedy

Hello and welcome. My name is John August, and this is episode 733 of ScriptNotes. It's a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Over the years, we've talked about comedy a lot on the show, both for film and television. We've discussed jokes with guests like Mike Birbiglia and Patton Oswald. But we often treat being funny as an inherent trait, like height, rather than a skill you can develop and improve. So today on the show, I want to talk about a proper comedy education, and to do so, I'm excited to welcome on a very special guest. Ellie Barthwell is a writer known for her work on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, for which she has five Emmy Awards. She's also written for Vulture, the AV Club, and Cards Against Humanity. She teaches at Second City and Columbia College in Chicago. Her new book, reality TV for Snobs, is out this summer. Welcome, Allie.

0:02

Thanks so much. Hi.

0:50

I am so excited to be talking with you, and of course, I love. I got to talk with you a lot over the last couple weeks and months because you were on the negotiating committee for the Writers Guild of America and were an absolute superstar. So I want to talk to you about that. But mostly I just wanted to hang out with you more because I miss you.

0:53

Oh, of course. Yeah. Oh. I mean, if we could be doing this in a conference room under fluorescent lighting, that would be ideal.

1:08

That's the dream.

1:14

But I'll take over Zoom.

1:15

And we actually referenced you in an earlier bonus segment, because Drew and I were talking about how in the negotiating room, like, between sessions, you guys were talking me through sketch comedy writing and, like, terms and things and differences between, you know, Chicago styles and other styles. I just love to learn new things about it. So I knew at that moment that I wanted to have you on the show, so.

1:19

Oh, thank you so much.

1:37

So we're gonna get into that. There's also some relevant listener questions we'll try to answer. And in our bonus saver for premium members, Ali, I'd like to talk about making a career outside of New York and Los Angeles. Because you live in Chicago.

1:39

Yes. Yeah.

1:51

It is absolutely doable to do, but probably different than other people's paths would be. So I want to talk about that.

1:52

Yeah, I think Chicago's the best city in the world, so very happy to have more people move here and. And be creative in Chicago.

1:58

All right, we'll roll out the welcome wagon for Chicago there in our bonus segment, premium members. But first, we have actual news. Ally, this Thing that we've been working on for months and months and months, the 20, 26 NBA. The contract to negotiate, we negotiate with our employers for all the writers across the country was ratified by our members. And so 90.4% of members voted to approve it. That just came through yesterday as we recorded this. And hooray, we did it.

2:07

We did it. We did it, Joe.

2:35

But, Ali, I want to talk about. This was your first time. This was my fifth time on the negotiating committee, but this was your first time. And so what was your expectation going into it? What did you think it was going to be like? And then we can talk about how it differed from that.

2:38

I think you hear negotiation and you think, okay, well, we're all going to be, like, around the table. The studio's on the other side. Us on this side, we're gonna be, like, wildly handing notes and chiming in and, like, calling. Objection.

2:50

Yeah.

3:07

And my job at last week tonight is my first job in tv. And like you said, I'm not in New York or la, so I do sometimes feel like kind of outside of all the other happenings in the industry. So I did come in being like, oh, gosh, what will I know? What can I bring to the process? And I think I was surprised at how little I spoke to the amptp. And if anyone knows me, they also probably be surprised. Like, Ally wasn't, you know, flipping a table in front of the studios. But I also learned a ton about the lives of writers, the, you know, like, the lifespan of a career, all the different ins and outs. And then, personally, I went through a major health episode. I had leukemia. I had a stem cell transplant. These are all very, like, neutral, chill things at this point. But I definitely. I call myself like a power user of the WGA health plan. So I really had an understanding and an expectation of what being someone who relies on that insurance really feels like. So that was also an important thing for me to voice in the room and talk about how the healthcare works and, like, literally saves lives.

3:08

So in the months leading up to the negotiation, we would have meetings where we talk through all the issues going into it. We put together our proposals, sort of the blue sky list, and then narrowing it down and sort of how we were going to focus things. And so in those initial things, we had members who were in Los Angeles were physically in a room together, but folks from the east and people like you who was in Chicago were joining us by Zoom. But for the actual negotiation, Ali, you came out to Los Angeles for three

4:24

weeks, three it ended up being three weeks. Yeah.

4:49

And that is a huge commitment for a volunteer. You weren't paid a cent for this. And thank you, thank you, thank you. I don't know if members can just appreciate not just how much, but how much of a life you give up to come out and do this. You were just in a hotel room for three weeks while we were negotiating this.

4:52

I really figured out hotel living, really got my. My bed set up just how I wanted. All my toiletries in the bathroom. But I think, like, I've been in other unions. I was a member of Actors Equity because I was an onstage actor. You know, I worked briefly with the Chicago Public Schools, so I was in the teachers union. I was working at Columbia. Like, you're in a union there. And so I really have an appreciation and understanding of, like, how important unions and collective labor can be as well as. And I think I told the story. We were in the room. I studied abroad in France for a year in college. In the second semester, my university went on strike. First the teachers and then the students. And I did not have class for four and a half months because the students were literally occupying the university. So I was like, okay, if we can get to a point where we are not occupying the studios and come to some sort of deal, Like, I've seen sort of all these different ways that unions and labor can touch people's lives and throw things upside down, but also help people get what they really need. So it was an honor and a privilege to be there.

5:08

Well, and thank you again for all you did. I'm happy that the members voted to approve this and that we are out of this negotiation cycle, period. For a while, we can focus on the hard work of enforcing the contract, helping members get through the changes of the health plan that are going to be happening, but hopefully get to a better place. You say how unions impact and touch lives. And so we haven't addressed this on the podcast at this point because I didn't want to touch on it before we got this deal closed. But I want to address, I guess, usually say, the elephant in the room, but in this case, the elephant outside the room, which was the union that was touching our lives, which was the Writers Guild staff union here in the West. And, Ali, when was this first on your radar? When did this first impact you?

6:18

Well, I remember being in meetings with the whole negotiating committee, and there would be a bit of time at the beginning of each meeting with, like, updates of what was going on in the west and on the east. We all had varying degrees of like how in tune we were. And then when the staff union went on strike, we were told like certain things will and won't be happening because the people who are in charge of those things or who work with those things are on strike. Then those little check ins at the beginning of every negotiating committee meeting became a little more serious, a little more focused, a little more intense. And then the main thing being on the east, my first interaction a week before we left to go to la, I started and some of the other members on the east started to get incessant phone calls from the staff union. You know, I answered the first one because I didn't know what it was. And then they started coming in and I think at certain days we were upped. You know, I was up to like 30 or 40 phone calls a day. And then, then, you know, I let my voicemail fill up and it became text messages. And then it was 30 to 50 text messages a day. So there was a lot of attempted contact from the staff union. And so we had to have conversations about how to handle talking to them about them, you know, what it would mean to be a union member and to possibly have a picket line where we were negotiating. What does it personally mean to each person to cross that or not cross that picket line. So there was a lot of logistical planning leading up to it, the, the actual time in la. And then I also think there was an emotional component of what sort of became the intensity of the picket line and everyone's feelings about the picket line and, you know, seeing people that, you know, other people, other staff members from the west and negotiating committee members from the west, seeing people they knew and worked with on the picket line. And I think there was, yeah, a big logistical component and a big emotional component was also happening.

7:00

Yeah, there definitely was. And you'd like to think it was like severance where there's the outside world, the inside world, and once you're inside, you can completely focus on the thing. And after a few half an hour of decompression, we could just get back to the actual work. And I do want to stress, I think the deal we reached was not impacted by what was happening outside kind of at all. It was the same deal that would have happened either way. What was impacted was our ability to communicate with members. So we couldn't do the big member meetings we were used to doing. As we go into this and then as we negotiated the deal and we're talking to our members, we had to do that all on Zoom. That the east hosted because we didn't want our members to have to cross a picket line that would have inevitably been there from the staff union. So they were picketing outside of the places we were doing our negotiations. And that became at first uncomfortable and then kind of scary. And there was a. There was a day where it got really scary. And that was the one moment it sort of broke through in the press where it looked like it was going to. If not get violent, a person could get hurt. And so that's where we had to sort of, you know, address how we were going to try to de escalate and get the other side to de escalate, too. I'm frustrated on your behalf because you're not even a West member. Like, this is not. This is. This is not your fight at all.

9:08

There was sort of some mixed messaging in those text messages and calls. They couldn't quite decide if I worked for Ellen or Ellen worked for me. And it's like, either. Either way, I think, is not actually accurate. And. And if you want me to, like, I'm very sympathetic. Like I said, I've been in unions. I really love being part of a union. But it just. It reached a point where I felt. Speaking completely, completely personally, I felt like what was happening was not even about the negotiations that we were going into. I wasn't sure what was happening with what the staff was negotiating for because I'm not a West Council member. Board member.

10:21

No, our negotiating committee wasn't involved in their negotiation at all, except to the degree that, like, they are on the same health plan we are. So what we were doing in the room was going to affect, you know, how much they were paying for health insurance.

11:07

I had the feeling of, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I don't know what would be helpful. But as someone who's traveling, not in my own bed, also, like, trying to keep things confidential and keep things under wraps, it's not great for, you know, there to be hostility going in and out of the building. And personally, I felt. I was like, I'm gonna hit a point where I'm gonna start saying something, and that's not good for anybody's cause. And so it's like, you know, we can. We only have so much bandwidth as human beings, and I think everybody's bandwidth really got stretched in a way that I don't know if it was better or worse for either side.

11:17

Yeah. So last night, I was just remembering through this, I think, like, oh, you know, what I should do is, like, I have all the phone numbers of all the people who called me, like, you know, 40 times a day. It's like, I should just, like, call them back and let them tell them a piece of mind. I realize that's not a productive thing, but I thought if you humor me, I just wrap up this little segment by, like, this is the voicemail I would leave if I were to call them back. So this is just me leaving the voicemail. And they were. We should stress, they were all the same voicemail. Basically, there was a script. And so this is the script I think I would be inclined to do if I were going to call these people individually. Hey, it's John August. I'm a WGA member. I am the person you've been yelling at for the past six weeks, calling me a scab, calling me a traitor to the labor movement, following me to my car. You left me 40 voicemails and text messages per day. You made it impossible for me to answer my phone. I want you to understand that from the outset, I thought, yes, of course, the staff of the Writers Guild should have a union to address how you're underpaid. I still do. I want you to understand that what you've been doing for the past few months has been incredibly counterproductive, that any goodwill I had has completely evaporated. Instead, you made myself and other negotiating committee members feel physically unsafe, in part because you made a mockery of picketing. You physically blocked doors in cars who followed us down the streets. You picketed our houses. What's so frustrating to see is that in your public statements, in your press interviews and your Instagram, you portray yourselves as the victim here. That's not accurate. You are adults. You made choices, including going on strike, including picketing another union's contract negotiations. That is genuinely unprecedented. To sandbag another union as they're negotiating their deal. In the end, it had no impact on our deal. It just made a few weeks incredibly unpleasant. I don't know how this is going to end. I genuinely have no insight into your negotiations. I never did. But I have to ask, as one union member to another, what is the end game here? Is your aim to actually go back working at the Guild, or do you just want to win? I worry that you're in this mindset that the only way out is through, and that is not serving you well. So I'd encourage you to find another way, a more productive route, because what you're doing has not worked, and I'm pretty sure will not Work. Thanks. And I will leave it there. Let's move on to happier topics.

12:01

Yes.

14:41

So we have the Scriptnotes book that is out there in the world. We'd love that people are buying the Scriptnotes book and enjoying it. But we have a dean from the University of Iowa has exciting news from there.

14:43

Yeah, Dean writes. So congratulations on the publication of the Scriptnotes book. It's fabulous. After several years of sharing PDFs of my own lecture notes with students, because there simply was no great screenwriting textbook out there, I'm delighted to tell you that your book will now be the official textbook of the New Ish Screenwriting Workshops at the University of Iowa. My colleague Rachel Yoder, who's the author of Nightbitch, first suggested the idea. She loves this book, too. We'll be using it as the Textbook for Cinema 1300 Foundations of screenwriting beginning next fall.

14:54

Oh, that is so exciting. And I think there's going to be some other programs that are doing the same thing. So if you are teaching a program, you're going to be using the book, or if you're a student who you find out like that is the book that you're using. We'd love to hear it. Because one of the reasons we wanted to go with a big publisher is they have academic arms who can get it into university bookstores and do that kind of stuff. So it's, ah, it's exciting to have it out there in the world for people to enjoy a big orange book that you can see on your shelf. All right, let us get to our main topic, which is comedy. And I'm so excited to dig into this with you, because I've never taken a comedy class. But you have taken those classes. You've taught those classes. Ali, let's start from the very basics. And so you have a student who shows up to learn comedy. They're considered funny by somebody.

15:24

Yeah, absolutely.

16:11

But I said in the intro, it's like, you know, it's like height. But you think about a basketball player and there's certain fundamentals that are going to be key if you're going to be a great basketball player, like height and speed. Those are things that cannot be taught. But we all understand that a basketball player can be coached and taught and get to be a better basketball player. And the same is true for writing and for comedy. So this funny person shows up. What are the first things you do? Talk us through those first couple of sessions you might have with somebody and what a class it might even look like.

16:12

Yeah. And I Think even that person you're imagining of, like, oh, they're funny in their friend group or their family. I had a lot of students when I was teaching improv, specifically where they were a lawyer or an executive or a teacher, they had some job where they had to talk to people and they had to be able to think quickly and be on their feet. And so, you know, a lot of times you'd have someone, they were like, oh, I started taking this class because my kids got me a gift card because I'm retired or my boss paid for it and suddenly they're a year in taking the final, like advanced courses and, and putting on a show. So you really do see a lot of different people. And so there's lessons that you can take from improv, which is one of the things I did for a long time at Second City, teaching and directing and performing and then also from writing. But I think one of the really first things is you have to sort of turn off that self judgment because you're really trying to create as much as possible. You don't know exactly what's going to work, what's not going to work. You're going to try things on and, and a lot of teachers will tell you we're going to get you to try a bunch of different styles of things, a bunch of different exercises. If it works for you, you can take it and run with it. If it doesn't work, feel free to drop it or look at it and be like, why doesn't this work for me? So I think, you know, turning off that self judgment and then I think the other part that is really important, especially when I was teaching improv, when I would teach my improv students, I would say I require two things. You have to be honest and you have to be present. And those are really hard things. Once we get to adulthood, pretty much probably once we get past puberty, being present and being honest, but that sort of sense of play, that sense of discovery, the sense of honest reaction to what your scene partner's giving you or what's being written on the page and then being present again, that sort of taking away that judgment, taking away like what I think this is gonna be, where I think this is gonna go, and really you can sort of return to a state of kind of play. And I think that is really important. And if you take an improv class, your first few classes are getting people into that mindset. And then depending on where you study, there might be one or two little things of how important is the Ensemble, how important is the individual contribution? And then in writing, you're teaching people. All right, I'm gonna give you a little bit of some story basics. I'm gonna give you a little bit of some structure basics. But then we're gonna find ways to play. I'm gonna create little sandboxes for you to play in, and we're just gonna experiment.

16:45

Yeah, I'm gonna break it into two kind of big buckets here. Let's talk about the, you know, being present, being honest, and the improv. That's crucial there because you think of that as being a performer thing. But it's also true for any creator who's. Who's trying to make moments feel alive in front of you. That's crucial. So talk us through what you mean by present. It's listening. It is not trying to get ahead of the moment and not trying to anticipate too far. Not pulling stuff from the past into this.

19:25

I think it really is. You don't want to plan too much. You don't want to be dictating to your scene partners or to yourself, like, where you think the scene is going to go, and just sort of letting yourself really react in the moment and letting yourself be. Because I always tell people, like, you know, I talk to my parents, friends, and they're like, oh, my God, I could never do that. And I'm like, but you did. You were a kid and you played pretend.

19:54

Yeah.

20:21

So we have to sort of break you out of that adult mindset of like, oh, it would go really well if I did it this way. Or it would go really well if I did it that way. Or, like, if I do this, people are gonna think of me a certain way. And it's like, you have to sort of break that and be like, what would a little kid do? And it's like, they're gonna see something in front of them. They're probably gonna touch it, they're probably gonna pick it up, they're probably gonna shake it. They might even, like, tear it into two parts and, like, eat one. And it's like that sort of process of, like, whatever's in front of me, I'm allowed to interact with, react to. If someone. I do an exercise where I have two people stand face to face and I have one person send the other an emotion however they want. You know, non verbally, but maybe with sounds. Send them an emotion, and then I have the person mirror the emotion back, and then I have. Send them the. Send that same emotion and send the opposite back Great. And then the third one, I go send the emotion and send the appropriate response back. And so it's like, if it's happiness, the opposite might be crying. Do the same. It might be laughing. But the appropriate one back might be that person suddenly feels like, oh, my gosh, they're laughing at me. So I'm gonna feel embarrassed at someone laughing in my face. Or it might be like, oh, we're co conspirators, and we're, like, laughing together. But it's sort of teaching you, like, there's no wrong answer. If it makes sense to you. And it was your, like, again, that word honest reaction, don't judge it, just do it. And then if we add words to that scene or add character to that scene, we can figure out why you wanted to be embarrassed when someone laughed or you wanted to laugh with them. That sort of thing.

20:22

Yeah. As I think about, I've never taken an improv class. And if I do the introspection for, like, why have I never done it? It's like, I didn't want to be bad at it. I was afraid of failing. And that fear of failure is an embarrassment. Are real palpable things. I'm sure those are some of the first walls you need to break through in one of these classes. It's just like, it's okay. The stakes could not be lower in an improv class.

22:06

I had a class. They were in the. second city. Their, like, upper levels are called the conservatory. And they had this bit where they would. I would split them into two groups and be like, okay, each group come up with a scene or each group come up with something. And they'd go, who won? Who won? Who won? And I go. And I said, if you wanted to win, you should have played lacrosse in high school.

22:30

Yeah.

22:51

Like, we are comedy nerds doing make em ups at 9am on a Saturday. Nobody won. Nobody won. So let's just. And you know, they were very. They were laughing about it too, but it was like, it's just. We're playing pretend, we're goofing. We're playing pretend. And a lot of improv warmups and exercises really are meant of, like, all right, if we all just start making funny faces, we're all gonna be on the same page with each other.

22:52

Yeah.

23:19

And if we all start, like, wiggling our arms weird, then we're gonna break down those walls. And I say, the beautiful thing about improv is you do it once, and then it's gone. We can never do that exact same scene again. So if you're embarrassed, you're like, well, it'll be over, and I'll never have to do that exact same scene again. And sometimes I think when, like, the writer brain turns on that frustrating thing of, like, oh, I had something right there, and then it. And now it's gone. And so that's, I think, a little bit in there is where you sort of get that improv to sketch, which is what the Second City does. And what I really liked to do as a performer and then a teacher and a director and all that stuff.

23:19

Yeah. So let's start making that transition. Because you're saying that no one wins in improv. And it's like, did we have a good time? Did the play happen? Did we sort of get through that moment? And I'm sure you can then look at the tape or go back and analyze what things worked, what things didn't work. But you're probably focusing on, was everybody present? Was everybody honest? Was everybody playing the game the way you play the game? Then as you move into sketch, you really are like, okay, what am I trying to achieve here? You're probably coming in there with a character with a concept where you're clearly communicating that concept. And if things didn't land, if things didn't get a laugh, that's where you can actually start to pick apart. Like, well, why didn't I get a laugh? Or that thing did get a big laugh. Why did it get a big laugh? And our instinct is going to be like, oh, well, you can't analyze comedy. You can't pick it apart. But of course you can.

23:58

Sure.

24:48

Just like we can on three page challenges. We can look at sort of why this scene isn't working. You can look at a sketch and say, like, oh, this is not working for this audience in this moment because of X, Y or Z. Talk us through how you're getting started, getting people thinking about sketches and how you're improving sketches.

24:49

So even just to get that first step of the first thing in improv that I have to teach you to do is I have to teach you to make a choice. You have to make a choice. You have to say, yes. You have to pick up the rock and look what's underneath it. You have to look at empty space in front of you and be like, that's a butterfly. And there's absolutely. I have to get you to make a choice. The second thing I want you to do is I want you to make a choice that will serve you a little better. A choice that will make your life a little easier. So if we're in an office and there's like, oh, look at that on the desk. It's probably gonna make everybody's lives easier if it's a paycheck. So now you can see your coworker's paycheck. It's gonna make your life a little harder if that's like a tiny man who can speak German to you. Yeah, like, we can do it, but it's gonna be a little harder. Or we're doing a different thing now and then. I think that transition from improv to sketch is looking at every. You know, so there's lots of different ways to do it, but one like, you're talking about, if we've done. We've improvised something, we've improvised a scene or maybe a form, and now we're looking at, what do I want to see again? And then you kind of run through, okay, what do I want to see more of in this scene? What do I want to see less of? What I, you know, I always say, what do you want to see more of? What confused you? What felt. You know, I go easy, hard, fun, stupid. How was that? What do we want to see more of? What confused us? You know? And so then you're looking to pick out. Maybe you're picking a character, maybe you're picking a whole arc. Maybe you're picking a turn of phrase that we, like, stumbled on, like an interesting point of view or a piece of dialogue. But then you're looking and saying, what do I want to see again? What choices do I want to make again? And then go from there.

25:06

So what is the first version of a sketch that you might see as a person teaching this class? So you have students who've gone off and they've. They're coming back in with a sketch. Is it a written thing that they're putting up on their feet? Are they showing you a piece of paper? Or have they just worked out with their classmates what they're going to do? What does it look like when you're first seeing something?

26:59

Yeah, so it's. It's all kinds of things. And. Okay. Personally, I love to see. I have an idea. We want to try it. And it's like, we got together, and she's going to do this, and I'm like, great, don't tell me anything. Get up there. Just start doing it. And I'm going to call time, probably around three and a half, four minutes, and then we're going to sit down and talk about it. Students can also bring in, like an outline where they've written down this happens and this happens and this happens. Or it could be a fully written that they've used their office printer at their day job and they're bringing it to class and they hand out copies. The thing that students do, oh, they will give me a copy. And everyone's on their phone. I'm like, that is terrible. That is terrible.

27:17

Yeah.

27:59

I don't, like, figure out who in your class has a day job. You can abuse the printer and bring a written sketch. But I think for all of those situations, the next step is, what were you trying to do? What were you trying to say? What do we want to see more of? And my personal thing that I really, like, really pushed and want to get my students, the thing that motivates a lot of my work is point of view and self expression. So a student will put their scene up if they're improvising through it the first time or they're using it from a script. And I go, cool. What was the point of view? And like, there's a lot of different things that you can mean when you say that, but I go, what was your point of view? I don't always say it in these words, but, like, what were you trying to do? And then I go, great, that's what you want. Here's what we can change to make that, like, louder, clearer. Because I really am from the school of thought of if you know what you want to say, then we can take your idea and put it kind of anywhere. And I think a lot of, you know, the majority of my training at Second City, with social and political satire being kind of the base of that. So it's like most of our scenes, you know, in our running order, we want to be saying something about ourselves, the world, you know, the government, relationships. We want to be saying something. So I did a lot of work as a teacher to help students be able to say back, which we can talk. I made it, like, all these exercises and a mad lib and all these things to be like to say back to me. What is the thing that you want to do with this scene?

27:59

So students are coming in, they're putting up this scene. You're taking a look at it, and then you're offering suggestions. What are the common knobs? You find yourself adjusting with what they're doing. Is it about like, okay, you have too much here. I didn't understand.

29:41

They all have too much.

29:56

They all have too much.

29:57

They always have too much.

29:57

Everyone always thinks Like, a joke is funnier if you put more words in it. It never is. Yeah. Well, I think I notice in sketches is that you have this blessing in the first few seconds to establish, like, this is the place, this is the concept, the stuff that would normally be like, the set. You're sort of creating that, so you have to sort of like, thank you for coming into my office. This should only take a few minutes. It's fine. Great. We've done that.

29:58

Great.

30:21

But if you didn't. If a sketch didn't have something to establish where we are, what we are, we're floundering for those first few moments. We don't know what we're actually seeing. And I'm sure a common complaint is like, I don't know who this person is. I don't know what I'm supposed to think of this person at the start. And so I'm listening, but I'm not fully taking it in because I don't get why I'm supposed to be engaging with them.

30:21

I'll see sketches from students and it's like, I'll tell them, I'll go, okay, you have five pages for your sketch. Yeah, about five minutes. I go, we should know who the people are. Where are they by the middle of the first page, the most, the bottom of the first page. If we are explaining, like, who, what where. Beyond that, it's either. Either this is like, we're creating like a new. Like, we're aliens or something, and I really gotta get on board for that. But then it's also like, is this a sketch or is this a short play? No, like, is this like our show bible? Like, how many pages do we need to explain what the aliens are in the sketch show? And I want to get to the thing that you want to do in this sketch. The thing you want to do in the sketch is not explain who everybody is at this dinner party. The thing you want to get to is that somebody brought their girlfriend and their girlfriend went to the rival college and now we're going to all have a freak out because she went to one school and everybody else went to the other. Like, we want to get to the thing that is the most fun. And then I want. So that's like the first thing. And then it's like, let's make everybody give everyone something to do that everybody can have fun and make sure that, like, everything we're doing builds up to the point of view that the student wants to get across.

30:46

That's great.

32:14

So if there's something in here, it's like, this isn't paying into this. We can like, pull that out or. I had a student, they brought me a scene. They were all flamingos.

32:15

Great.

32:26

Love it. And they were doing really amazing flamingo work.

32:26

The physical comedy. The. The embodiment.

32:32

Physical embodiment. They, all their heads were going. They were moving around like, like on the stage and calling out, like, flamingo specifics. And at the end, I was like, cool. Like, what were we trying to do? What was that scene about? And they were like, oh, that was about climate change. And I was like, what? It's like, we didn't say anything about climate change.

32:34

Well, so. But I think that's a great opportunity because you see students in front of you who are like, that thing you're doing is clever and funny. Like, the physical comedy that I can. I can visualize it, which is great.

32:58

Yeah.

33:08

And what is the thing? What is the actual, like, you know, point of view? Like, once you've established this thing, it has to go someplace. It has to build to another thing. It could just be a physical thing, like without words. It's them fighting over a fish. And that could be hilarious. But it has to build. It's not just, you know, impersonation.

33:08

I remember this from when I was a student at Second City. Someone brought me a sketch. One of my ensemble members brought me a sketch, and he was a robot. And it was this very complicated, like, allegory for racism that, like, people were. And he was like. And then, you know, that there were. It was the guy who was like the basketball team owner that said, like, all the nappy headed hoes or whatever. He was like, oh, he owns a basketball team of all robots. And it was just like. And I was his human girlfriend. And I was like, what is this? He was like, well, there's all this racism in the news. And I finally had a meeting with our director, our director teacher. And I was like, I'm not gonna do this. This is entry level stuff about racism. And, like, this doesn't have any of, like, my point of view in it. And I'm like a black person in America. Like, you know, and then the teacher was like, okay, take it back to this guy. She was like, bring me the version, like the, you know, the version that you want to do. And he brought back a scene where it was just a silent scene where he was a robot, had no racism in it. It was just like, he just wanted to be a robot, which, like, I'm fine with, but so it's that sort of thing of like, we have to identify, like, what is the thing that you really want to do in this scene? And there's no wrong answer. Whatever you say, I can turn that dial up. If we just want to be flamingos, then we're gonna think of 10 things flamingos can do on the stage and we're gonna, you know, give everybody a flamingo name and maybe there's a song we could do. But if we wanna talk about climate change, then the flamingos have to talk about climate change. Or like something has to happen about climate change.

33:26

Absolutely, yeah. So as an instructor, ultimately you're. These classes will lead up to some sort of showcase, some sort of performance where everyone has to do those things. And it's your job to then figure out how to order this in a way that makes sense, that's going to play for an audience. Can you talk about that?

35:08

Oh, yeah. So again, that's another thing of like, so talking about Second City when I was there. In those student classes, the main objective is everyone has to have one scene where they're the star. So maybe you have 12 students in a class. We have to have 12 scenes where somebody's the star. Yeah, it's probably about a 50 minute show, maybe a 40 minute show for some of those student showcases. So then you start looking like, okay, how do we get everybody in there? So that's its own process, figuring out teaching people how to make themselves the star. So that's its own process. The other part is you do have to sort of structure and protect things. And there is a little bit of, we call it like running order, math. You want to open with something where the opener, ideally you want to see every cast member. You want to hint at the theme of the show, if there is one. And you're usually teaching the audience how the show's going to go, how they're going to watch the show. Then you're probably putting in a two person relationship scene, which is like a specialty of Second City. Not a lot of other sketch comedy theaters really do that two person. So it's like a grounded.

35:26

Give me an example of what that kind of scene would be.

36:42

SNL doesn't really do them. Key and Peele doesn't really do them. It would be like they look like a scene out of a movie or a TV show. So it might be two people that have gone on a first date and they're standing outside the door. One person's really nervous to kiss the other person. So this is like a silly version that you could do. You would write today be like someone's gonna use ChatGPT to help them make the move.

36:44

Yeah.

37:09

So they're talking to each other and then going and typing in chat and coming back. So that would be sort of. That. It would be that type of scene, a grounded two person relatable scene in Harry Met Sally.

37:10

Like the restaurant scene where like, you know, the faking, the orgasm scene. Would that be. That's it. That's a two person relationship scene.

37:20

That could be a good two person relationship scene. The first time they have the conversation. Who have you had great sex with?

37:27

Great.

37:33

I don't believe she. I don't believe Sheldon. That's where you learn a little bit about each character. You get an insight into who they are. You maybe learn a little something about like how this, you know, the writer thinks about relationships or the theme. Maybe we're gonna explore then. From then on, we're trying to get variety, we're trying to move fast. And then we wanna hit a point where we're gonna put the funniest scene in the show about 2/3 of the way down. And then you want to as quickly as you can get to the closer from that point. And again the closer we're gonna see everybody, we're going to wrap up. Any themes? If our opener asked a question, it'll be answered by the closer and. Yeah, and then in the middle there's variety. There's a song, there's a silent scene, there's another relationship scene. There's a group scene. Someone might have built an improv game. So you're just building variety in between those kind of those bookends.

37:34

Can you talk about blackout and sort of that as a tool?

38:28

Yeah. So blackout is a very short scene. Typically some of the best blackouts, you're under 20, 30 seconds. 30 seconds is a lot for a blackout. And it is one joke executed on stage where the punchline is some sort of reveal or twist and then the lights black out immediately afterward. And they are used to subvert audiences expectations because they expect a full scene like they've been watching for a little bit and they're like, oh, this is another scene. And then it ends after maybe three to five lines. It also changes the pace of the show. They're easily swap in and out able. So they could be really good to put in something topical. A blackout. They have sort of two sort of constructions. One is inappropriate response. So it would be, you think, you know how this scene will go and someone says something that is unexpected. So One, a classic one at Second City. A guy's driving his car. A carjacker comes up. He goes, get out of the car. Get out of the car. The guy's like, oh, my God, don't hurt me. The carjacker gets in the car and he goes, oh, shit, it's a stick shift. Get back in the car.

38:30

Get back in the car.

39:45

Get back in the car. Blackout. So we think we know how a carjacking or a carjacking scene would go. And then you blackout. The second type is called clash of context. Sometimes you hear them called, like, a reframe. But we believe we're looking at one thing, and then it turns. That last line reveals it to be something else. The one that I always talk about when teaching is, there's one. There are two women, and they're standing and, like, they're kind of popping their gum and they're kind of rubbing their hands like this. And so they're like, he gonna tell me I gotta be professional at work. I'm gonna take a break when I wanna take a break. Clear. He did. And so, like, amazing, amazing. Blackout. And so we think from the visual and the way they're behaving. There are two ladies outside, maybe on a smoke break. Maybe they're like, you know, they work at a store or something and they're kind of hiding from their boss to, like, file their nails. But they're charging up a defibrillator.

39:46

Yeah.

40:51

And then they're dead. So blackouts, like, typically work the best if they're one of those things. But you see, in each situation, it's a setup. And the setup is that, hi, thank you for coming into my office. But then the reveal is either the clash of context, the inappropriate response, and then it gets big laugh, we're out of it, and we go on to the next thing.

40:52

It's a classic joke, but just an embodied joke, really. Because the classic joke is, like, you know, where does the general keep his armies? In his sleevies. Again, you have the wrong context for what the framing is. This is a delight. And, of course, we could go on for hours about this. I want some practical advice for our listeners who are thinking like, okay, well, Ali's convinced me I probably should take one of these classes. It's geographically based, so you should go to wherever's in your area. A second City in Chicago is, of course, iconic and classic. And there's classes all the time. Los Angeles has Groundlings and ucb. There's other groups that do things. There's Obviously New York and other markets, too. How does a person know that it's a good one? Do you just. Do you look up reviews? Do you go to a show? Like, how will you know that these people know what they're talking about?

41:15

Yeah, I would definitely go to a show if they have, like, a professional resident sort of component to be like, let me go look at that. And it's like, if that's fun and making you laugh, like, they probably know something, you know, they probably know what they're doing. Talk to people that have taken those classes, and you want to have a sense that they can offer you something, whether it's like a show at the end, but they're not. You shouldn't have to pay to play, right? Like, if you're paying to take the class, you probably shouldn't be paying to do the show at the end of, you know, the student workshop or something. They should probably have some version of something free that you can, you know, a drop in class, a student jam, you know, a show that maybe at the end of the show there's a free improv set or something like that where you can get a look at sort of what's going on there. Yeah, I would say those are probably a good bet.

42:06

And so obviously, you're building skills, but the other potential benefit here is you're meeting people who are doing the kinds of things you want to do. And especially if you're new in a city, you're new in a place or you've been in a city, but you don't know anybody who works in this space, it's a chance to meet some people who you might want to hang out with, work with, you know, collaborate with. There's a reason why these. They're very good schools, but also it's a bunch of really smart people who are all under the same roof who then rose up and did great things together. So that's another good argument for at least giving it a shot. Even if you don't think of yourself as a comedy person, a comedy writer, it's a good experience for you.

43:01

Yeah, And I just know, like, the people that I was going through classes with that I was watching on stage when I was a student, that I have taught as a teacher, like, they are making cool things. They're performing, they're writing, they're getting stuff produced and written. So. And the way that you sort of do that networking is you just be, like, a cool person and be a cool friend. If someone needs a skill and you have that skill like, go help them out. If someone wants you to read something for them and you're both like, broke students, it's like, oh, yeah, read that thing for them. Because when it comes time, if that person pops off and ends up in a writer's room somewhere and they get a chance to recommend people for the next season or for the next time they staff up, they're probably gonna remember the person that was, like, helpful and nice and took a genuine interest in them rather than the funniest person in the class.

43:37

Yeah.

44:32

You know, I say you can be like 10 out of 10 funny, but if you're 10 out of 10 asshole, nobody's going to hire you. But if you're 7 out of 10 funny and 0 out of 10 asshole, like, someone's going to remember that you were really nice to counteract that. And they want to be in a room with you for eight hours a day. They want to be on slack or zoom with you for hours at a time. It's going to be that person that was nice and helpful and helped, you know, use their office copier to make programs for their show.

44:32

Sounds good. All right, let's answer some listener questions. First one here I see is from Kate.

45:01

I am writing my first big, broad comedy, and holy hell, if Craig isn't right, then it's the hardest thing I've ever written. A lot in the script is working really well, but in giving it to readers, I'm finding a lot of them turning into logic police when my mission is to have them along for a wild, madcap, super heightened ride. My instinct is that the issue is actually very early in the script. While the initial couple scenes are funny, something about them is signaling to people that this is a grounded world with grounded characters, when that actually isn't the case. So I wanted to ask, how do you think about the opening scenes of a comedy? Any tricks, insights, or thoughts on how to use them to teach people how

45:06

to watch your movie? Yeah, this is the longer version of what we were just talking about. Yeah. Yes. Those initial scenes are so crucial to get people on board for the kind of movie you're trying to watch. And it's entirely possible you wrote some great scenes that are queuing people up for not the movie that they're expecting to see. And you gotta go back and look at those scenes. Or could you lose those first scenes and start later, which may be the way into this, is to get going in the middle of something that's just a little bit more madcap. Allie, what's your Instinct.

45:45

I would wonder how much of those early scenes are grounded. Like, I know that. Like, okay, there's information we, like, definitely have to get out. But I would want something fantastical or big and broad to happen even in the middle of those early scenes. Like a little glimpse of it. Like a tiny little. Little nugget of the silliness that's to come. Because if those first scenes are grounded and then, you know, we get into that turn out of the first act and it suddenly becomes silly. We haven't taught our viewer that the world is silly. And it's gonna get sillier. Every scene in that first grounding bit should have a touch of the silly, the fantastical, the broadcast. So that when that bigger turn happens, we're in the world.

46:18

Yeah. So you're probably not making a spoof. You're not making Airplane. I think you would have told us if you were making that. But maybe you're making A Fish Called Wanda or something that has some bigness to it. I think you're gonna need to see a piano falling early, the equivalent kind of thing happening there, to let us know, like, this is a world in which this kind of thing can happen. And also, I want to say, give it to us on the page. Let us know as a reader, like, take a look at your voice and those in your early pages. And are you queuing up the tone of where this is going to go? Because that could be a factor in it, too. We just had Hailey Z. Boston on talking about her script for Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen. And in those initial pages, they're really beautifully written, but they're also very clearly setting up big things are going to happen. And we know it because she's telling us that these kinds of things are going to happen. She's giving us a sense, like, this is what it feels like. And you may just need to be a little bit more explicit on the page there, too. So the reader from the jump really gets a sense of, like, this is this kind of movie.

47:17

I would also. One more thought, please. If folks are turning into Logic Police, I would look at what are the reactions of the characters to the wacky things happening. If they are always saying, oh, my God, what? Or, like, get out of here. This doesn't make sense. If the characters are rejecting the wacky stuff, then your audience is gonna probably be trained that some level of that is what needs to happen here. So if you think about, like, a Fish out of water sketch, there is probably. There's a couple characters in A fish out of water sketch that are amenable to the fish's weird behavior, even if they don't. Aren't familiar with it or they don't, like, accept it. They're like, okay, this is what this guy is. Or maybe they adopt a little bit of it by the end. If you're thinking of, like a fish out of water sketch. So look at how many characters and how stridently they are rejecting the funny thing. And if their reaction to those silly funny things happening is, oh, my God. What? What are you talking about? This doesn't make sense. And I think that can probably be really attractive to get a quick hit out of a funny thing. Like a reaction of, like, say what? But it's like, if everyone's going, say what? The audience is going to start going, say what?

48:18

Yeah, maybe I just have Rachel Bathe Adams on the brain. But I'm thinking both to Game Night and Send Help, and in both of those are broad comedies, and she's one of the crucial people in there who is like, in Send Help, her character is broad from the start. So even though we're in an office environment, we know, like, this is a movie that has the knobs turned up a little bit. And also in Game Night, from the jump, this is heightened. This is not a grounded, level approach to things. So those might be a good things for you to take a look at.

49:37

Kate Hannah in New York writes. At what point do I stop taking assistant gigs? I have a manager, I have an agent, I have a script with good producers attached, but I've not made money as a writer yet. I'm about to go to work as a director's assistant on a show this summer. I love these jobs, but they take up all my time and energy. I force myself to write on the weekends, but it's hard. This job will be great connections working with a production company that did a big movie about a famous plastic doll. But sometimes I wonder if that's worth it when I have so little time to write.

50:06

What's your thoughts, Ali? What's your thought?

50:37

I don't know. Again, this is like an area where I'm a little bit like, oh, this was not. That was not my path. So I don't know exactly what the advice.

50:39

Ali, what was your path? So you went to Wellesley and then how did you end up in Chicago? And what were your jobs? Were you immediately working at Second City?

50:48

So, yeah, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, and so I did. I was actually like a theater kid. I did theater I did spoken word. I did speech and debate. And so when I went to college is when I first sort of was like, well, I want to do theater, but I don't want to learn lines. I want to be too busy doing my homework. So I was like, oh, I'll do improv. And, you know, we sort of. You sort of get to a point and you're like, well, Second City's kind of in the distance for, like, for improv. You look up improv. It's like Second City. So I actually got a scholarship to Second City when I was a senior in college. So when I graduated, I went and did classes, and I did fellowships at Second City. They had one for students of color. They had this scholarship, and I was able to take classes for free or for much cheaper. And there was a period of time where I just was taking a lot of classes, performing and rehearsing five, six, seven nights a week. I always had a day job, and I did not leave Nepo baby allegations start today. But I was able to work for my mom. And I had. I worked as a temp. I was a bartender. I had, you know, I started teaching with Second City, but I did not quit any day job until I was a touring member of Second City, because that's really hard to have, like, a day job at the same time, like a traditional nine to five day job. And so also, I was writing recaps for Vulture. I was really in sort of that personal essay boom that time. So I was cobbling together a lot of different things and started teaching, started directing when I stopped touring. And so I got last week tonight, because they reached out to me, because they had been given my name when they were looking for people. And so I did the submission, I did the packet, the second round of the packet, and got hired. And so it really was like doing everything all the time, and then moving into last week tonight. But still, I still did my recaps, essays. I wrote a book. I still go back to Second City and teach. So that was sort of my path. And so until. Right. It's like, until someone really is gonna pay you to do it. In my mind, it's very hard to leave a day job or to leave that, like, constellation of side gigs. And because having somewhere where you can have an output for your material, where you're putting it up or you're working. So, like, sketch was really useful because you could put something different up every week. It was really easy to get a group of friends together, hire a theater, put some material up Constantly. I got my first, I got my on camera agent, Ashley Nicole Black and some other great people in Chicago said, we all want agents. We're really good. We want agents. And put together a showcase and everyone wrote five minutes of solo material and put it up. So that for me, that period of like constantly putting material up, trying it, taking all of that while having my recaps, which were an outlet for my work, like, all of that was kind of going in tandem.

50:57

Yeah, I relate to Hannah's question so much because her experience was sort of my experience too, where I was working as an assistant to producers. But at the same time I had landed an agent, I was starting to take meetings and it was hard for me to get my writing done and all this other stuff. And so it was weird for me to be answering phone calls for other people while ASL trying to sort of set stuff up herself. And so I want to underline what Ali is saying. There's no curse to day jobs. Day jobs are good. They're keeping you employed. And at a certain point, you may want to step back from jobs that are keeping you from writing. So, I mean, Allie had the opportunity to. Her day job was also getting her the experience and exposure and all these things. And Hannah, your case, you say you're working as a director's assistant on a show. That's great. It looks like it's not your first time doing this. At a certain point you may need to sort of say, like, I got to focus on my own stuff and take the job that requires less of your mental time and focus so you can really focus on your own stuff. Some of the most productive times I had writing was I was an intern at Universal and my job was just so mindless. I was just like filing physical files and papers and it's just like I came home from work and it's like I didn't use my brain at all. And I could write at night. And if you can't get writing done, you may need to pull back. And so this could be the time to pull back. Or you could say, after this job, this is my last of these. I'm going to spend six months really focused on my writing here. But you won't know until the next thing happens whether you made the right choice or not. It's the bummer here, but you're asking the right questions. At least. Let's do our one cool things. Allie, what do you have for us?

54:14

Okay, this is very silly and small. I have a self inking stamp. It's A star with a little smiley face. All right. Like I am a child. And so when I was writing my book, it was a book that had a lot of sections and segments and sidebars. And I wanted something to like, keep me motivated and to be like a little reward. And so it's a little. Let me find a piece of paper and show you. You take your little stamp and it puts a little star with a smiley face.

55:55

It's like you're a teacher, but you're giving yourself a star.

56:33

I gave myself a star. And it has a really satisfying. Let me see if I can hold it up to the microphone. Has a really satisfying click, click. This was under $10 online. But if you are someone that really likes, you know, you need a little treat. Little gold star.

56:37

Yeah, absolutely.

56:57

And also like the visual progress of seeing. I would print out pages that had all the different segments that I had to do for each chapter. And as I would get a segment done, I would put a little star next to it. And so it really. You can have a little fun with your writing. Find a way to make it fun and silly for you. And that was my little silly way.

56:59

Fantastic. But more importantly, this was helping you write your book. Reality TV for Snobs, which we'll put a link in the show notes too. And everyone should pre order immediately, like we will.

57:21

Yes, thank you.

57:32

Because pre orders are how books get sold. So pre orders are super, super important. So I cannot wait to read it. I am currently reading Ann Libera's book Funnier and she is a teacher at Second City. It's really good. And so fundamentally talking about her theory of comedy, having taught comedy for a long time and seeing people from all different schools of comedy sort of coming through there and different ways of doing things, from very physical people to the witty folks and very dark people and sort of how you find a blend and how do you sort of get each person to the best version of what they are there to do? I'm really enjoying it. It feels like the script notes book, but very specifically about crafting comedy. And so I'd highly recommend that. And as a bonus, you can take a look at Ashley Badilla on Saturday Night Live. She's one of the breakout people on Saturday Night Live. She's the cast member. So funny was getting like the most screen time there. She's so funny and her comic timing and her ability to draw out a moment and just like sit in a moment of pain and just let that. She just has this really neat gift. I'm going to link to an article by Jason Zinneman, writing for New York Times, about her and sort of like going through some of her sketches and just like how she's able to pull out these moments that are just great. And this is like a very strong cast they have right now with some superstar players, but she just has a different energy that is so fun and it's so exciting to see because it's not just she's like a master impressionist or anything else, but she just, she's

57:33

a really good sketch actress. It's a very specific style of timing and pacing and development of relatable characters and characters that have are relatable with a twist. It is such an interesting, really fun thing to see someone who's a great, great sketch actress actor on tv. It's great.

59:06

It's great. And I don't have a sense of how much she's writing because everything on SNL is written by a bunch of people. But like, it feels like there are sketches that are just like so in her zone and in her pocket that are. It's great. So it's just, you know, worth watching every week. But I'll put a link in the show notes too. This article, which has little clips out to some of her sketches from the last two seasons, which are so, so good. And that is our show this week. Scriptions is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by Matthew Cielelli. Our outro this week is by Matt Gillespie. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to askatjohnaugus.com that is the place where you can send questions like the ones we answered today. You'll find transcripts@johnaugus.com along with a signup for our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which has lots of links to things about writing. The Scriptnotes book is available wherever you buy books, including many university bookstores. Apparently you will find clips and other helpful video on our YouTube. Just search for Scriptnotes and give us a follow. You'll find us on Instagram ripnotes podcast. We have T shirts and hoodies and drinkware. You'll find those at Cotton Bureau. You'll find show notes with links to all the things we talked about today in the email you get each week as a premium subscriber. Thank you again to our premium subscribers. You make it possible for us to do this each and every week. You can sign up to become one@scriptnotes.net, where you get all those back episodes and bonus segments like the one we're about to record on working in Chicago, and you'll get the full scoop of Chicago. Allie, an absolute pleasure. I'm so excited to get to see you again after these weeks and months leading up to this. An absolute delight. Thank you so much for coming on.

59:30

Thanks so much for having me. This was great. Sam.

1:00:59