Sinners

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I mean we are officially out of our Oscar fever, Amy. I am feeling better and we can all breathe a sigh of relief knowing that this season has ended but yet the next season has already started with the release of Project Hail Mary. I feel like that movie is going to be the Sinners of Next Year but we got a long runway for that. How did you think the Oscars were? You know, I liked them. I totally blew my ballot. I don't know if I've ever done worse on my Oscar ballot ever than last year and I like that because it means I got surprised and it means the wealth was scattered around. Well, we're going to talk about who won, who lost. If you've not been following us on our sub-stack, we have had a lot of chatter, a lot of Oscar talk, a lot of ballot fill-ins, small talk at the Oscars. Here's what I will say. For me, my ballot was pretty solid. There wasn't too many surprises. I think the big surprise was in the documentary about Putin winning. No one really had that down. The tie I think is a little bit interesting but beyond that, I think the two big upsets were that Francine Masler did not win for Sinners which we talked about here or we're going to be talking about in a little bit on the show how great the casting was in Sinners but one battle after the other won for casting. It felt like in the moment that it was a prize for saying thank you for discovering Chase Infinity but I'm also really impressed that Sinners discovered Miles Katen. So what are you going to do? I mean, I think I was stuck in maybe some old-school Oscar thinking from December because I had a lot of people who were winning all of the critics groups winning this big night usually that happens. Absolutely got roasted, did not work. Well, I want to bring up one thing before I reveal the results of our Oscar ballots and it was a tweet that I saw by just say rad on threads and I thought it was pretty interesting. James Cameron, Martin Scorsese and Paul Thomas Anderson won their first directing Oscars from movies starring Leonardo DiCaprio and I thought that was interesting because now while I really do believe that Michael B. Jordan should have won and he did, I do think that there's something really interesting about DiCaprio. I think he's very good and I don't always think that people treat him as good as he is. Well, it's funny I was watching him when he finally went upstairs as part of the ensemble, went one battle after another one in Best Picture. He looked like he was out of space, man. I was like, that guy has so much life in shambling energy on screen and then he's standing up upstairs just like he looked like he was floating somewhere else. I think that there's a lot of relief knowing that you're probably not going to win. There was an outside chance of him winning but I was just really happy with how it all went down. I think a lot of people were hoping for a split between the movie we're talking about today, Sinners, perhaps for Best Picture and Paul Thomas Anderson for Best Director or Vice Versa, however people wanted to look at it. But I got a feeling very early on this is going to be a one battle year. It just felt like that from all the award shows. It did but do you know what really stood out to me though about last night? What? Is that it never felt like a battle in a way and I don't mean that because it wasn't a horse race because it really felt like in the room there was just kind of an in a ward's room decision that everybody was in it together tonight. That it's like Hollywood itself is the victim of one battle after another. Oh wow. And you know what? We are not going to be fighting each other and all the people who kind of wanted this award a little bit too much, Timothy Chalamet, Adrian Brody from last year, they got publicly shamed. Humblically shamed. It was all a love fest. I do want to talk about this though too. I believe that there's a lot of energy around Timothy Chalamet saying the ballet, that comment, you know, no one cares about the ballet and what was the other thing they don't care about? Oh opera. I mean eventually he'll get around to slam poetry. Yeah but I feel like that was said the day the Oscar ballots were due. I don't think it swayed that much. Oh no not at all. Yeah I don't think so and I think if it is that he's done more for the ballet in one week of getting razzed about it then you know basically anybody short of Misty Copeland who also took the stage has done in 10 years. And by the way I love how Sinners incorporated ballet into their piece. That piece was amazing. We're going to talk about that piece in today's episode but to bring ballet into it I thought that Cohen did an amazing job. So many bits. I think he left it all out there. The ending bit which was hilarious being the ending of One Battle After Another where he basically says I'm done. I'm walking off. I'm not going to do this again. I thought I just did a pitch perfect hosting job. Tons of bits tons of sketches never outstate is welcome and was really honestly a relief from some of the bad bits that were going on in the actual show. Oh my goodness I was shocked because here is an awards presentation where people are getting up. They are professional actors being given dialogue and my goodness the two Pullmans father and son Pullman couldn't even get any chemistry on screen with each other. It was like what happens when you stand up there. It's just every little bit of stage fright and paralysis you've never felt most of your life just vanish. I mean look there was a lot to unpack. I want to say this. I love the Immemorium segment the way that they are doing it now. I think it's really beautiful. I thought Billy Crystal did an amazing tribute. I love how they brought out cast members from all these Rob Reiner films. I thought that the tribute to Diane Keaton was really beautiful and Catherine Ahara. Yeah I definitely teared up at those. Barbara Streisand managed to make it about herself which was equal parts hilarious and also like what are you doing. She's thanking the audience. It's like no no no here he for Robert Redd. Like she made it more like they were giving Love Story an honorary award. Like it was a very weird thing beyond the fact that you could not hear her saying anything. Yeah and am I confused. I thought just Babs was her name. Like the grand reveal that he got to call her Babs is like wait everybody doesn't call her Babs. I'm so confused. I just thought that was what we called her. Odd. Odd all the way around but I enjoyed it. It moved briskly. I feel like what you said is true. People got shamed in a fun way. I felt like everyone was in on it. It wasn't mean. I've read a lot of reviews where people like it was safe. It was you know what it was funny. It was fine. It was topical. I feel like it didn't press any button too much and sometimes when I I get my like I love when it goes a little bit too far but I think Conan did a beautiful job of talking about why we are here and what we are making in the midst of doing just a hilarious monologue. My favorite being was it Caps Lock is the sequel to F1. I couldn't believe I never thought about that. You got me. Well Amy you already alluded that you did a terrible job on your Oscar ballot but you know we put together a crack group of experts. It was me you Harry our intrepid producer is also producer Molly. We also had Sydney from our social media team and our artist in residence Kim Troxall as well as our discord and all of unspooled fans. I love our posse. We were all deep. Oh they're amazing. You could actually check out the sub stack. You could see what the discord and the unspooled fans voted on but I'm going to tell you coming in at last place well Amy you'll be no surprise it was you. You got that but guess what you have a friend in last place and that friend is Sydney. You and Sydney came in with nine correct picks and then it jumps up to Kim with 10 correct picks then Harry with 11. Molly ties with the discord for 12 correct picks. Now here's the interesting thing about the discord. They didn't vote on five categories so you know they could have ran away with it but you know what I don't think anyone could have touched me who came in with 19 correct picks. Amy the championship the trophy must be returned to its rightful owner. Gimme gimme. Tragi I gave him last place. I had just won the trophy last year. I will give it back to you humiliating shame and defeat. I will go bury my head now. That's right the rightful owner takes it back again and I will of course share this award with of course Kim Troxel our artist and president. She's the best Kim you win our prizes every day you're just the prize winner of our lives. Well today we're going to talk about a movie that I think a lot of people wanted to see win best picture. It walked away with a handful of great awards. Ryan Coogler got his first Oscar which is amazing. We have the first female cinematographer to walk away with an Oscar for this. We got some cool things we got a score Oscar. This movie walked away the most nominated film in Oscar history and I believe it walked away with about what is it four awards total four out of 16. I did the math. There's one way of spinning it where it's also me it's the biggest loser. It has lost 12 Oscars which I think is a new Oscar record for any single film. I do believe though if you're not there to take your Oscar it should be given to the runner up. I feel like Delroy Lindo had a look on his face like god damn it why don't I get this. They all did that was the most competitive category. I went to the warm first and he wasn't there. And you kind of knew Sean Penn wasn't going to show up. Apparently he was meeting Zelensky in the Ukraine which I mean what I can't fault him for that. Me neither me neither. But I do feel like Sinners got a lot of beautiful attention last night. I think they did one of the best Oscar musical numbers in recent memory to do that live on stage was amazing. I was really truly impressed by that. Yeah same. They were just like we enjoy how this looked in the movie. We're just going to do it again. You can't help but think that down the line any other year Sinners would have taken at least half the awards. It didn't win. It was just a good year for film. It was just a tough competition and that's what I like to see. And I'll say this. You know Sinners obviously a horror film a period horror film period horror film musical. But you know horror did have a little bit of a renaissance this year. The opening of the Oscars really embraced weapons which I thought was so cool and what a great way to bring people in you know something that everyone had seen. I really thought that was one of the best opening montages since like Billy Crystal era. I love that. I mean I guess I just I feel like I'm in a good mood about how it all shook out last night. Yes. You know I think we're going to see Ryan Coogler and we're going to see Michael B. Jordan back up there a gazillion times again. Hopefully we get to see Delroy Lindo back up there. It was a kudos to the crowd and really I think to me like the biggest surprise of the night is I hadn't realized that Ryan Coogler was invited to join the Academy in 2016 and turned it down and he did say that the reason why is because he just can't get behind the idea of ranking one thing above another thing that he just he likes movies and the fundamental premise of the Oscars he can't buy into like enough that he's like turning down the honor of joining the Academy itself and you know what I thought he carried that kind of I respect this and I also am keeping a foot out or maybe as a as a theme of what we're about to even get into in this movie I live in a world where there's a lot of compromises people have to make to survive. I will play this game live in this world go out for the Oscars genuinely care if I win one but I have my limits. You know Amy I really love how you you speak about Coog because I believe that he is the future he is the optimism that Conan O'Brien is talking about among many other great directors as well but there's something so magical about him when he speaks and the way he speaks and the way that he mixes influences I think he is somebody who loves his cast loves his crew and we're going to talk about that today so without any further ado let's give some attention to a film that I I really believe is the runner-up but we'll see which film and I actually think both of these films will have long legs in the future these are modern day classics they are movies they are films let's talk about centers. Unspoiled is proudly sponsored by Sonos speakers one speaker is awesome multiple speakers fill your home with seamless music and podcasts so that you never miss a word. Discover how Sonos can make your house feel more alive with sound at sonos.com that is sonos.com. 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Setup This episode is brought to you by Rakuten the big secret all savvy shoppers know Rakuten makes your money go further shop with Rakuten to get cash back on top of seasonal sales discover fashion tech beauty and more at hundreds of your favorite shops like M&S look fantastic selfridges and boots it's free and super easy to use just shop as normal and set cash back on top of sales and savings join for free at rakuten.co.uk or get the Rakuten app that's R-A-K-U-T-E-N So the year is 2025 all Amy I remember it like yesterday and Ryan Coogler is looking back at his career you know because soon after college he made the indie feature film Fruitvale Station with his USC friend Ludwig Goranson as his composer and the actor Michael B. Jordan as a star and after that all their careers just took off I mean together the three of them with a big boost from Ryan's wife Zinzi have made a string of major franchise hits Creed Black Panther and Wakanda Forever. Now that last sequel took him four years to make because of two things one the global disaster the pandemic you might remember it and two and more more personally the tragedy of the death of Chadwick Boseman and Ryan Coogler he's supposed to start in on Black Panther 3 but he's also just thinking life is short all of us are getting older we're getting more rooted in our lives our families if we're ever going to take a big swing into a passion project that's for us this is the time to seize the day because you know making movies takes a lot out of your life you know he wasn't able to be there when his great uncle James died because he was directing Creed you know and Ryan and his uncle were very close yeah like when Ryan was a kid this uncle James he would tell them stories about his childhood back in Mississippi he would teach Ryan about the blues which Ryan says he did not really connect with at the time he was like blues that's for the blues brothers that's for like weird old white comedians I don't get it but after James was gone the blues became even more important to him so around this time when he has finished Wakanda Forever Ryan is washing dishes and listening to this blues song called Wang Dang Doodle about a crazy all night party and he starts to think huh this might be the seed of a story a seed of a story that I want to tell gonna kick down a hall the doors and that becomes sinners which I mean obviously isn't just a direct adaptation of Wang Dang Doodle no it is a horror period musical mashup set in 1932 Mississippi about a young blues guitarist Sammy aka preacher boy that's played by Miles Katen who helps his identical twin cousins Smoke and Stack they're both played by Michael B Jordan launch a juke joint for the community and some of the friends who shop to party you've got Miles's crush Perlene smokes ex Annie and stacks childhood sweetheart Mary they're played by Jamie Lawson Woonmi Mosaku and Hayley Steinfeld and there's also Del Rolando as the guitarist Delta Slim Omar Benson as the bouncer cornbread and Yao and Lee Jun Lee as the shop owners Bo and Grace Chow now you think well what could go wrong everything's happening great well guess what no because outside the doors there are three vampires who want to come in Remek the leader that's Jack O'Connell and two newly created monsters played by Peter now I hope I'm gonna get this name right but probably wrong Dramanus and Lola Kirk it is a lot of movie we sinners cost $100 million but it makes $369 million which sets a record for it being the highest grossing totally original film since Jordan peels us all the way back in 2017 and it gets even more records it set the record as we were talking about earlier for getting 16 Oscar nominations the highest ever and it is number 71 on the litter box top 250 films with the most fans but you know what I think we have talked about sinners and awards so much in the last couple months let's just talk about this as a film let's make a podcast that is simply eternal and not about just reacting to what happened no I totally agree and the interesting thing to me on this rewatch of sinners was how much I loved it again you know I saw it in the theater I saw it you know I think it was in 70 millimeter right there's a whole big conversation about this actually this entire award season has been a conversation about formats right we are seeing directors embraced big screen formats and this movie played so beautifully on a big screen and I loved it and I talked about it but that came out last March and I do think that over the course of the year it's just kind of drifted to the back of my mind and rewatching it I was just amazed at yes it's a big movie but it's incredibly lean and it moves so fast it's incredibly propulsive and it never kind of lingers anywhere too long no it is fast it is fun it is confident it is just big movie filmmaking I mean lately now when I'm picturing this film the image in my head is just our very first shot that we get of the twin smoke and stack just that movie star shot leaning against the car a little bit of banjo theme coming in and they just look like mega superstars it's just like ta-da here we are this is a big Hollywood movie and we're just gonna go go go go go go go go I love that shot and this is the first reveal that we're gonna have to Michael B. Jordan's to Michael B. Jordan's in this film that are at points side by side in casual conversation and this movie is directed in such a way that it never feels like a gimmick and that you truly forget that you are watching the same actor I mean I've had that moment numerous times like oh right that's the same person they're acting off of someone obviously but wow it does not feel like the other is not there yeah they do give really big shout out so they had a guy who was the stand-in like and they just put faces over him they'd kind of shoot this scene twice and then put the face over it but really what I was trying to pay attention to this is the third time I've watched the film right was trying to find those differences in the performance of Michael B. Jordan really trying to zoom in on on what makes smoke different from stack because I find it a little hard to tell them apart not at all because of his performance but just because of the names I don't know why I keep getting tripped up on the names of who is who right no I think I get that as well smoke and stack are you know they're great names um but you know but they're reversed man like I just I cannot get over it smoke is the one who is dressed in blue and stack is the one who is dressed in red and for the freaking life of me I just feel like the one that's about fire has to be the one dressed in red and so I keep getting confused this I maybe this is just me but I haven't tried consciously to remember that smoke is in blue and I cannot my brain is just refusing well I think that that's kind of the beauty of the film it's a very nuanced portrayal in the sense that they are clearly brothers they're going to act the same like most brothers do this isn't like a tommy boy right you know where one is clearly oh that's the messy one and he's the clean one you know they have certain things that they are focused on but I would say they're pretty much aligned they're working together throughout like they work as one unit right they're not at odds like not like I think back to like a movie like dead ringers and I I feel like I could understand the differences maybe a little bit better in that one because they're trying to draw that line the other movie that I think about all the time is oh god you devil which you know clearly one was god one was a devil so I could tell the differences very easily I love that movie when I was little oh my god it was the best George Burns doing two roles how could he do it where I think the difference is really coming down to though is that smoke is the flashy one stack is the kind of quieter stern or more protective one and there's a line that extra popped out at me on this watch where stack is talking to to Sammy about their dad who was really abusive and what happened to their dad here this is it nah we ain't killing smoke dude my daddy knocked me unconscious by the time I came to smoke type we're done burning you should be sure me most he ain't mean it right there that's it that's like that is the core of what the difference is that when they were growing up stack is the one who took the most abuse from his dad and smoke is the one who stood up and killed their dad for them like smoke as a protector and stack is the one who is flashier but a little bit more vulnerable well and that's what makes the ending so amazing because smoke couldn't kill stack his dad was the abuser and he could not do it even though he was a vampire and was not even himself and his soul was gone I don't think that smoke could put himself in that position to harm his brother after having this life of protecting him yeah exactly I think that that smoke really emerges as the character who feels the most responsibility for everyone and for everything and smokes like responsibility and keeping people safe extends to preacher boy because that was the agreement again was the agreement again I'm talking about the end but I do think it's really important because it movie seeds this throughout you know the agreement that he makes with stack is don't touch preacher boy and that respect between them even in a vampiric state he abides by right there's something really beautiful about that like that they have this bond and I think it all comes from that scene that you just played yeah I really think so and it's interesting because Ryan Cougler says that he comes from a family that had a lot of twins in it like his mom's older sisters were identical twins their names are anti-merlin and anti-serlin and they grew up living next to each other for the rest of their entire lives and so he was like I understand this dynamic he was like what's kind of cool about twins when they move through the world is that they tend to be locally famous right you're like oh the so-and-so twins right I can list basically every single pair of twins I ever went to school with because they were kind of mini celebrities even though they were just individuals on their own and so he seeds that into this film really well where everyone has heard of these guys everyone it's not like just Al Capone it's like oh the smoke sack twins like they have this reputation they've been gone for eight years in Chicago they come back and it's like nothing has changed and I think the way that they come back with this air of mystery is a really interesting way to introduce these characters because we don't know what they have done and we get these little you know asides to tell you that they might have done something really bad they might have I mean ripped off two warring families to then bring the benefit of that to this town in Mississippi like their world might be crumbling we we could be catching them in a moment right now before the end I mean it is the end but you know what I'm saying like the way that they've come here from Chicago is a little suspect and I think that that leads to people being impressed in awe and also afraid of them and throughout the entire film you know smoke doesn't hesitate to to throw down right you know whether it's shooting that guy in the street for touching his car even though he knows him right and they have a relationship but to prove a point or to strike preacher boy across the face with that gun when preacher boy kind of talks back like they are lovable they are sweet but they are intimidating as hell well and even beyond the fact that they've like ripped off the irish mob for beer and the italian mob for wine there's a genocide near they're like oh and we were pimped back in Chicago like they were pimps right like they use the word and you're like oh man and that's the thing that gets pretty close to a script saying something pretty unforgivable about a character right like that to me is like one of the red lines but it's like so it goes like here we are and I was thinking well they did not name this film saints this film is about people who have come into this world making some choices that mean we're all kind of sinners I mean it's delroy uh lendo playing delta slim who I think uses that line first about himself when they're making that negotiation back and forth about like how much is he gonna get paid if he's gonna skip out on his job to work for them for a night you know you ask I'll give you 20 dollars to come play at our juke tonight now which I could I'm gonna be a mess in this tonight semis and every Saturday night what they pay well gangster you should add a lot of questions they ain't paying you 20 dollars a night I know that you ain't paying no 20 dollars a night you paying 20 dollars maybe tonight I ain't never heard of your juke maybe it's here tonight is it here tomorrow night the week after that now I've been a mess in this every Saturday night for the last 10 years mess is gonna be there another 10 years after that at least shit that's probably more time than I got left on this earth that I play and I get as much corn liquor as I can drink similar like me I can't answer more than that I mean what this really is though a film that leans into the idea of yeah our characters are going to have done some bad shit they're gonna have crossed a lot of lines that you're not cool with and here they are they're going through the world up next it's red flair and his new band oh my god I'm back again on a vacation oh everybody's been gonna bring new games gonna show you now new game party find new dropping hits every week find the new slots on back 18 plus be gambler word at all that's right inspired by jet engine silences the dice and hush jet purify powerfully purifies the entire room quietly capturing pollen allergens and pet dander removing odors and harmful gases such as no to day and night hush jet powerful compact purification that's quiet cheers to sonas for sponsoring today's episode unspooled I got my first sona speaker over a decade ago and I have steadily added more speakers to it ever since I love how my entire home is just connected to this one sound system that can play one song on all of the speakers at once while I'm like puttering around cleaning on a Saturday morning or my sonos can divvy things up so I can watch a movie in my living room while my boyfriend blasts Norwegian black metal in the office he heard me call it Scandinavian death metal a few weeks ago insisted afterward that I have to hear the distinction through the sonos and while neither one is still my genre it did sound great but we both agree on how good it sounds to have our movie nights boosted by sonos's Dolby Atmos surround sound I started my home theater with one soundbar and then I've later added two speakers to the back corners they look great they connect each other easily and wirelessly very important and the immersiveness they create 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durable and you know whatever I'm doing with my hose which a lot of times is cold plunge work it is perfect for me for a limited time my listeners get a free pocket pivot and their 10 pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copperhead hose just text unspooled to 64 000 that's unspooled to 64 000 for your two free gifts with purchase unspooled to 64 000 message and data rates may apply c terms for details unspooled well I think this movie really is about history right history repeating itself trauma being uh dealt down generationally um and the effects that that has across the community and across relationships and delta kind of stands very tall as this person who is like the moral elder right he is the one who knows what will happen you know he's seen it you know I think that that moment when he comes across the chain gang right um and tells the story about why they are even there in the first place like he is someone who has seen it all and is not going to fall victim to anything now has he seen vampires no uh but you know I think that what we see with him is the truth out of all these characters who are trying to be something or you know maybe wrapping themselves up in a different cloth he's the one who's pretty plain about what he sees and what he does and that doesn't mean that we all don't wrap ourselves up in who we want to be but I feel like he's the most unvarnished well yeah but also the way that del rilindo plays him I mean he is just bone deep in that performance so deep that I think in the months since I saw it between the second time and the third time I almost forgot how intense that performance is I was like oh yeah he's got a couple funny lines he's weird about the garlick he says he pooped his pants like I was thinking of the funny stuff and not just how he wears that character like there's no distance between himself and it you know he's just so far into that role and it's I want to play actually a little bit of that scene where he's talking about his past his history his friend who got murdered by the clan because I also think in it you hear two things like one you just hear an example of Michael B Jordan's really economical and lightly experimental storytelling that he's not going to cut away and take time and spend the money shooting a flashback he's just going to have you hear it and imagine it in your head but then second I love how this scene ends where lindo starts just drumming on the dashboard of his car that was improvised like that wasn't in the script it was on the the second to last take he was just like let me let some music take place of the lines I was going to say here and that's what I love because lindo I think on some deep level understood that this is a story about how you channel a lot of your pain into music and into art and I love that he went there and that you and that Michael B Jordan goes with it like he stays in character too when Delroy lindo starts drumming and he tells the sammy character like hey you got a guitar go on go on go play and it just feels like this magic of a director who knows their story and the cast who knows it just as well damn fool you took out all this money to pay for the two dollar train ticket train conductor song clank got a hold to one searchers pockets to find all that money made up a story about him killing some white man for it and ripping out white man's wife and then that's right there in the railroad station you know they cut off the man whoicken in film is, you know, telling, not showing. And the emotion that you see in that moment is everything that this character has been through, right? You know, he has lived through Jim Crow violence and he has, I think in many respects, while he is self-destructive in the way that he drinks, he has fallen in line with the system, right? But he wants to be fighting against it, which is why I think his transformation at the end of the film is really this beautiful piece because, and I use this term loosely, I think he is a little bit of coward. He's afraid to rock the boat. He doesn't want to take a chance. He knows where his bread is buttered and that's what he's going to do. The biggest thing that he does is kind of, you know, salute or, you know, hype up the chain gang, you know, show them that they're not forgotten. But it's from the safety of a car. Exactly. That's like incredibly safe because those are made with guns. But you know, his instant reaction when Sammy starts playing a guitar is like, hey, you're in my spot. You're messing with my money. He's very protective of what is his. And that's why at the end, when he sacrifices himself for Sammy, you know, to get this new generation, he also is the bridge. And I want to talk about this in a second, but a bridge between the worlds and him and Sammy together. It really that whole sequence we need to dive into. But I wanted to go back for Delroy Lindo and just say, while I think that this performance is so impressive, I was having trouble remembering much of it as the talk of awards were coming around. I love Delroy Lindo. But same. I just was like, what does he do? And it's, it really is in the rewatch. It under like you said, understated, small, beautiful. It's not a showy provides. I don't think anyone here is really showy because I think in rewatching it, I was like, Oh, right. She's fantastic. He's fantastic. Wow. There isn't a bad performance in this film. I mean, you know, and you have people here that are doing their first performances. Like, I mean, Miles Catten who plays Sammy, that's his film debut, right? Like working against, you know, Delroy Lindo is bitter forever. You know, Michael B. Jordan playing these two roles, you have Haley Steinfeld playing something that I felt like was so nuanced and so interesting. I'm just continually impressed by this cast because no one's stealing focus. It's like, to your point, everyone is working together to create this like tapestry. There is no star. And I think that that's also the reason why for a long time people were like, Oh yeah, it should go to Chalamet. Like, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, wait a second. This performance, Michael B. Jordan, like it's you, it's almost like you have to see it again or be like shown a thing because it's it goes down so simple and smooth. You're right. It's such an ensemble that everybody's kind of pulling together and nobody really gets to pop until you watch and study it again. Oh, and I mean, even Annie, I love Annie's performance who is, you know, Annie. When we massacre. Yeah. Yeah, she is, I mean, watching her this time, there's something so I love that relationship that she has, you know, with smoke and the trauma of losing the sun and her belief in these elements. Do they work? Do they not? I mean, I don't know. I think they do. But are they always going to work? I don't know, right? Because it's like, obviously, you know, at the end, smoke, you know, pulls off the the amulet or the bag that is protecting him. And that's where he kind of has his final stand. And I feel like even in pulling that off, it's because he believes in what she has given him. So he doesn't want to die with that on because I think it would prove it to be fake. Yeah. Or he really accepts that he's going to die. And he wants to make sure that he's he's with, he doesn't want to live without her. And, you know, like, he's like, don't keep me safe. Let me join you guys, which means he goes on this really beautiful arc. You know, like, their first debate when they're so really testy with each other before they make up in a lovely and sexy way is about this, you know, thing he only believes in seeing the world on the literal surface. She only believes in seeing it in the magical surface. I never saw no roots, no demons, no ghosts, no magic, just power and only money can get at. Yeah. So what I love about the ending is that's him saying, you know what, I'm taking her side. I want to join her. I want to be with her. And he's sitting there at the ending trying to lean in, I think, even to this magical world, like trying to be like, okay, I see my baby, I hear my baby, I see the woman I want to be with. And then the clan guy shows up and he's like, let me try to pull you back to mine. Don't you want to talk about like money? I got money for you. And he's so annoyed. Hey, listen, I got money. Those gunshots, the way this movie uses smoke's reactions, almost just as like comedy punchline that he doesn't pause before shooting that guy in the ass. He doesn't pause before shooting Hailey Steinfeld. He doesn't pause before shooting this guy. I really appreciate that Ryan Coogler doesn't try to build up a bunch of like tension by saying, should he or shouldn't he? Oh no, he's holding the gun. What are we going to do? Yeah, no, he goes for it. Like it is action based, like character reveal through action, not character reveal through hemming and hauling. And I also think that that recommits you to the violence of it, right? Like it by being so quick, you're not ready to, you're not pausing, you're not waiting for it. It's just like, oh my god, and you have the after effects of it. I want to also just circle back and say, I think in the way that smoke frees stack to live a life like he did with his father and his father is being abusive. He also bends to Annie and kills her in violence in a very violent way, because he knows that that's what she wants. It's a really like interesting thing that you're wrestling with, right? Because it's like, he will kill the love of his life because he knows that she needs that, but he would never do that to his brother, even though, you know, like I believe that he still thinks there's good in stack or there's a piece of stack that needs to be saved. It's just an interesting breakdown that these two important people he, you know, lives in great place. Yeah, that he reacts differently to each one of them. Yeah. And it's almost like the movie I think is of two minds about whether or not being a vampire is maybe okay. I think the movie thinks maybe being a vampire maybe isn't that bad, maybe, right? Like Annie doesn't definitely want to do it, but when, I mean, the way the vampires react when he kills Annie, they are so mad at him because it's like you ruined it for her. You ruined it for us. We could have been a family again. Like the anger in Hailey Steinfeld's voice. I want to play it because she's so mad. I mean, in that scene, the Hailey Steinfeld Mary character is acting like he has killed Annie. Like he killed her for the first time. She was going to be fine. They seemed all in on this idea of afterlife and community. I mean, I love this idea of the way the coogler looks at his vampires, right? They act very much like the vampires that we know with some other ideas attached to it, right? The idea that one soul is pushed down and this communal like hive mind is formed so much so that, you know, in that final battle on the swamp, you know, when Remek gets hit in the head, they all feel it, right? They all are like, oh, you know, they, they are one. And I do think, I think that this movie isn't trying to say that being a vampire is a good thing as much as it acknowledges that that is something that happens in life. And what I mean by that is, you know, this movie is, in many respects, a movie about gentrification and, and that kind of assimilation that just happens. It's going to happen. You can't stop it. And when you talk to Ryan Coogler, he'll say, like, you know, he grew up where the Black Panthers came from, you know, he was very cognizant of the effects of capitalism. And so he was like, whether or not I thought about that. I don't know. But it's a part of like the work that I do. But I think that this movie is doing something interesting, because it's not about a white vampire. It's about this Irish vampire, right? This Irish vampire who clearly has seen some fucked up stuff, right? Like Irish people did not have a free pass, right? But yet now they are turning another marginalized culture, right? So it's like the, like, the, sorry, what I want, the, not cultures, I want to say, what's the term when it's not the greater, it's the, what's the term for that? Like, it's not, it's not stereotype. It's no, it's like, like, white, it would be majority, like a minority. Sorry, oh, gosh, well, it took me a second. Sorry. So I think it's really interesting that, like, here, the minorities are kind of eating each are kind of eating each other. And the idea being like, oh, and that will make us stronger. But yet it's also taking away everything unique about them. Right. With the hive mind. But it's also kind of saying we're not going to just take it as default that being alive is better. You know, right? Because being alive is really hard here, too. I mean, by living forever, that means that Stack and Mary get to stay together. They couldn't be together in this period. They had to like hide it. They had to stay apart, get to marry somebody else. They stay alive, then they can grow up and live in an era where it's more acceptable to be in a relationship. And so there's a benefit there, too. Like, I think the movie acknowledges that. And I think that that's why Remick is so masterful. There's a great quote that Kugler had about it where he's like, you know, I wanted a vampire who has been affected by a lot of shit. No one is more shrewd than a person who's been fucked over. And that kind of history of subjugation, you know, gives him this empathy. For I think for community, that is a minority, right? Like he can speak to black and Chinese mixed heritage people and saying like, hey, we were you, like we're going to give you the freedom that you really want. Like it's not like come to our side and it and it's good. It's like come to our side and we'll be stronger. And I think that there's a part of that that like kind of, you know, want, you know, that that's what I think is so interesting about the film is that that he is continuing the trauma, passing down that trauma and continuing to, you know, subjugate people like he was subjugated. Well, I think it leads it up to you to decide like, do you believe him when he's making his arguments? I mean, I do think vampires are crafty and slippery and they try different ways to get you to do what they want. Like I love it when, when cornbread is trying to convince everybody to let him inside and he's not just talking like some sort of lawyer, you know, he's talking like cornbread would he's like, I had to do this, I had to do this. Come on, let me and he's like needling people right where he knows their weaknesses are. And you can't tell, I guess, necessarily, is he being sincere when he's like, hey, this is what vampire life is. And what is it we supposed to be doing? Being kind to one another and being polite. Now, we is one people and we shouldn't go in barging into other folks places uninvited. So that being kind of it is so funny because it's kind of the last thing you expect a vampire to use as his argument, you know, it's like, oh, you can be immortal and live forever. You can be hyperglamorous. You can gain riches, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, we're nice to each other. And I don't think the movie puts its thumb on the scale to say like, he's 100% telling you the truth or he's a 100% lying. Well, but I think what he is playing with, and I think it's very specific why these vampires are this this way, this hive mind is community, right? That's the whole movie is about community, right? Smoke and Stack are building a club just for us, right? They say that that, you know, when they go when, you know, smoke go as a smoke that goes no stack, when stack goes to the train station. And you know, says like, this is for us, you know, it is a place where everyone can be themselves. And that's why, you know, they have this issue about the money. Well, we can't that's not real money. And we're taking like field coins and and it's like, who cares that this is about our community. And what the vampires are offering is come with us for eternal community, we will like we will save you in that like that's, to me, what I see is the fuel of this entire movie, you know, it's it's that's what pulls them in. You know, it's not like you can have all the money and the power that you want. It's like, no, like to your point, Amy, like, you can date this girl, you can live this life. And you can forever have community. Instead of, to your point, having the hard time of what life is as a person who is a minority in a world where things have gone really badly, you know, or so far have gone really badly. Yeah, I really like Remix monologue about that. This world already left you for dad. Won't let you build. Won't let you fellowship. We will do just that together. Forever. It's better this way, baby. So why don't you go ahead and that's a theme that also stack after he's bitten kind of picks up. He's like, yeah, we were never free. We keep saying we're free. We keep acting like we're free. We are not free. We have not had a chance to be free. And this is the way out. And I think this is maybe where we probably both are wrestling with the idea of this film because you're right. It's not like saying vampires are right, but it's an interesting pitch because they are a racing people, but they are creating a community. And I think that that's kind of like, what, like, trying to think of the right word, like an assimilation, right? That's capitalism or colonialism, right? You are taking away the individuality and you're creating a larger culture that now is a little bit more watered down. And I feel like that's maybe the cost, like, is it worth the cost to make life easy, but you give away what makes you unique? Oh, that's interesting. You see it that way. Because I, as you're talking about that, I guess the scene I'm picturing is when we're outside with the vampires, they're throwing a party, Remek is, he's doing his like gigantic river dance, which I think is so fun. I want to listen to a little bit. I love it so much. But what I like about that scene is they're all sharing in his culture and having a blast with it too. Like, it almost feels like their cultures are just like building stronger. Together, he finishes his river dance and everybody runs up and they're like giving him a hug, like he just shot a three-pointer to win the game. I think that's adorable. And I think it's actually great that Jack is doing his own dancing. He is really a professional dancer for when he was a child. Full disclosure, I did go to Irish dance lessons as a whippersnapper. And there were like tournaments as well. Jumping Jack was locally known as Jumping Jack. Yeah, yeah. Great to roll back the years and and, yeah, unfil that one again. Did they add the jig because of your experience or was that just a coincidence? It was in there. It was in the script. It was already in there. So yeah, imagine my surprise. Yeah, that's crazy. So I'm like, oh, yeah, okay. All right. It wasn't that long ago. 20 years is doable. This is doable. I am all about people who come to Hollywood with their own very specific set of skills. Oh, I love it. It always impresses me so much. Reminds me of that episode we talked about with being John Malkovich when John Cusack is that puppeteer who's really looking for that mainstream success. Not that he was in Hollywood, but yes. But you know, as we keep on talking about that, even that dance sequence, it, I guess this movie is asking a question that it doesn't necessarily answer, which is, is community bad? And community can be seen in multiple lights, right? Like religion is a community, you go to church and then you have a set of morals and standards that kind of take away from you being an individual, right? And this movie is saying like, oh, being a part of any community robs you of your individuality. Yet I don't think this movie, you know, is arguing for segregation either, right? But I do think it's the allure that you can get caught in with, you know, with these larger things like, oh, well, it will be easier if we all work together. And then all of a sudden, you've changed the way that you are, the way that you share, because it's not societally acceptable anymore. I can look at that with religion, I can look at that through, you know, gentrification, like, oh, I love this area, it's so cool, it's mom and pop. And then all of a sudden there's a target down the street or all of a sudden, you know, there's a blue bottle coffee that's moved in, and everything changes. But the quaintness is now just the idea that it was quaint before you got there, right? There's so much to unpack about the danger of community. And maybe the idea of this movie or what it's saying is you have to be aware when you give yourself over to any group of people because, and maybe this is a, you know, it always goes back to filmmaking, right, Amy? It's like, here's Ryan Coogler doing this movie after doing three franchise pictures in a row, and saying, I gave myself over to community, Creed, Black Panther, Marvel, and did I lose Fruitvale Station in the process? And I see that as being kind of the issue that he's wrestling with, too. Before I get too rooted, before I need to take the next Marvel movie, or before I can't make or say something where I'm still in touch with who I was, because community has robbed me of that voice because now I'm in a bigger system where people are, for lack of a better term, kissing my ass and telling me I'm great. Like, what that, that's, I think, at the core of this, too. Well, I do think Ryan Coogler is really aware of what he has come to this business to do, because kind of a little bit of his backstory, he's a guy who was a star football player in college. Zindy, his future wife, she was like a star track runner. He saw her kick a bunch of asses, and he was like, that girl's amazing. So he got her number. Their first date was to see Bring It On, which is just adorable, and they got really into watching movies together. They really had each other's back on like being creative and pushing each other. They stayed together from, you know, high school, college, and he started to feel this urgency. He was like, I'm a football player in college. I'm actually really good at playing football, but I'm beginning to feel like the movies need younger voices to speak up. You know, that I feel like I see a lot of movies where older people are saying how young people feel about things. I feel a responsibility if I'm interested in being a movie maker when I grow older. I should just quit football now and get into it now, so that I'm not old when it's my turn to tell young people stories. And so he made this like really big call, and it's impressive. Like Zinzi backed him. She bought him his first copy of Final Draft Pro for 300 bucks, and they're like, okay, we're doing this. And he just really committed to positioning himself as somebody who can tell stories about the young people that he knew, and that's how something like a fruit veil happens. And he makes it with young people. He makes it with everybody he knows from college. You know, I love how he's been with Ludwig and Michael B. Jordan since he was young. I mean, this is a guy who like, he is the person who married Ludwig when Ludwig got married. Like he was the officiant. And I like this nucleus that he's formed. So yeah, I 1000% agree. Like I think he feels this responsibility to like, who am I in this industry? I've he I'm here to do a specific thing. And I think that the interesting thing about him as a filmmaker is in making films that are big films, right? Creed and Black Panther. He has retained that unique auteur ship about what he is saying. It's in a bigger picture. And I love when you listen to him speak, he's very aware of what his job is. His job is to get asses in the seats. Like and I think that that is his job. Self imposed, like, because he knows how important it is. Like, yes, he could make five more fruit veils. But that's not going to move the needle as much as I mean, Black Panther is truly a film that I think when you look back in the, the pantheon of films is going to be marked as a defining moment for what it did culturally, right? Like for, you know, for kids to see themselves for black kids to see themselves in a movie in a in this culture and to be enveloped in this thing in a mainstream way. It was, I mean, it seems almost not passane out, but it's like it was, it was huge, huge. And it still continues to have those reverberations. But I mean, what he did there is is wild and amazing and impressive. Well, yeah, and I think he does the same thing here. Like this movie has a gazillion ideas in it, gazillions of ideas in it. And it is entertainment first and foremost, like, boom, the entertainment comes first, the pacing, the jokes, the comedy, the horror, the scares, the jump scares, like he is not at all embarrassed to be making a big popular fun film. Well, here's the funny thing, you know, you say that and I am remembering the first time I saw this film, I saw it very early. And I like you don't try to know too much about anything before going into it. I knew there was a musical element to it. I knew it was a period piece. I did not know about the vampires and watching this movie and the reveal of that was shocking, because you're watching for about 30, 40 minutes and there's no, there's no sign that that's what is going to be. And I was like, Oh, I'm very happy to be in this movie. I'm enjoying these characters. Great. And then I'm like, wait, what? And then it's a whole other movie. You know, it's like, that to me, I love that I had that experience that I didn't know it was a genre horror film. Yeah. And the way that he does it is strange too, right? Because usually in a vampire film, where there's a bunch of people who are suddenly surprised that there are vampires, you have to stop the movie for like, what, five, 10 minutes and explain everything. Here's what they do. Here's how they act. Here's what's here's what's going to go on. He short circuits all of that because I think he's like, I know the audience knows. So I'm just going to have one of the most Saka's character, Annie knows. Annie knows what's up. And he's going to tell him, and he's just going to jump right into eat garlic and kill them right now so that we don't have to go through that little beat because I want to keep this entertaining. And that sequence is full of restraint. I remember the film really embracing this vampire tech, but it's in the context of the whole film. It's relatively quick. It doesn't go on for a ridiculous amount of time. There's something really refreshing about that just because you have a vampire fight scene in this barn. They don't abuse it. They spend much more time around it, like, you know, the acknowledgement that, okay, we know that they're here now. We know that they've taken other people. I wouldn't even say it's tension as much as they're building up. But when the fight actually starts when the barn doors open and they go for it, it seems quick. Yeah, like I think I was expecting or stealing myself for there to be yeah, five minutes of vampire explanation and maybe a whole 10 minutes of do we let them in or not? What do we do? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's a touch of that. And then straight away, you know, the grace character is like, nah, nah, we're not having an awing over this. Let's get it over with right now. And she screams. Come on. Come on. Come on in, you motherfucker. What the hell are you doing? And can I say, there is so much happening as soon as she yells and is like, come on in, you motherfuckers, that it really wasn't until the third watch that I was like, wow, this woman just saw her husband get eaten by vampires or is aware that her husband is eaten. And she's like, I'm not playing around. You come in, doors throw open, she has a Molotov cocktail, she runs straight to her husband and burns them both to death immediately. Just boom, just boom. Right? She does not hesitate and there's something so metal and so gnarly about that. You have to respect it. This character just goes from like zero to a thousand. And I feel like it's the rage, right? There's a part of this movie that is, I think, about, fuck you, I've done everything right and I still can't, you know, catch a break or like I'm still going to get fucked. Like there, I think that there's an element of like, I fit into your society, I did the right things, I didn't mess this up and I don't know. I really am, I think I buy that, that explosion. I buy why she is so angry in that moment. Yeah, you kind of get the sense that these aren't characters who have to think that much about what their principles are because they're living in a society where they just think about it every day. What am I willing to do and why and how much am I willing to make myself uncomfortable? I mean, that tracking shot that we have that introduces us to the Grace character early on where the daughter leaves one store, crosses the street, gets Grace, Grace walks back all the way across the street. I am also slow because at first I was like, oh, we're just watching a cool tracking shot. Awesome. And then I was like, oh, the reason why they have two shops is because there's one shop that's for black customers and one shop that's for white customers. And this tracking shot is showing me the ridiculousness of what these people have to put up with, that they have to have two stores, they can't have one. And it takes that long because I guess I'm that slow to catch up on what's happening. Well, the movie isn't trying to hit you over the head with it. It's like you're living in it. And I think when you live in it, you don't comment on it every single chance you get unless you are on social media all the time. That's why I had a feeling when I saw the movie for the first time that it was almost like Ryan Coogler, Coco Chanel'd it, where he went through the script and then was like, what line is too extra? And he took it out and he took it out and he took it out and he was like, that's there, it's a cross. I don't need it. Busy routines can make it hard to focus on your health goals, but MedExpress offers a simple way to explore weight management treatment online. Complete our short eligibility consultation with no need for face-to-face appointments or travel. If eligible, treatment is delivered discreetly with UK registered clinicians offering support along the way. Visit medexpress.co.uk slash podcast to get started today. The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world. 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Find out why NutriFull is the best selling hair growth supplement brand at nutrifull.com that's spelled n-u-t-r-a-f-o-l dot com promo code unspooled. That's nutriful.com promo code unspooled. Let's talk about the big dance number because I think this is worthy of a couple minutes here because this I lied to you song, the centerpiece of the film. This moment that I would argue is the entire plot of the movie, right? There are these musicians that come along that are so transformational that can essentially unite the past, present, and future all in one. Like it creates a communal timeline and you know you're hearing that in the beginning of the film and you're just kind of watching it and you understand like okay there's storytellers and music plays an important part in it but you see it play out and obviously preacher boy is someone that is being told you have a gift you need to play. Preacher Boy's father obviously does not want him to play because he's a preacher and he knows that opening up or having that power is actually a dangerous power too and you know this moment where he plays and you get this you know this oneer where you're watching I mean musically it's like blues like funk hip hop you know it's rock I don't know it's everything it's West African drum music right the gospel there's so much in this and it all fits so perfectly together and I feel like what's really interesting in the scene is as you're watching everyone dance they are not one but yet they are coming one in the music as opposed to the song outside that Remek is hosting right the Remek is like they all seem to be they're dancing right they're not dancing the exact same way but there's a difference in these dances right the communal dance versus a dance that recognizes all the differences and everyone is still an individual because you know that moment is incredibly uh you know unique and special to each one of those cultures and I like how they don't cheat it you know not only is what the anti-character saying overlapping so well with what the images are you like here as soon as she gets to the word future like that is when you hear the guitar come in there are legends of people born with the gift of making music so true it can piece the veil between life and death conjuring spirits from the past and the future so beyond that I have rewatched that scene so many times and I love how the cinematography doesn't cheat at all yet one of the first things that you see is the guy in the kangle hat kind of jump into the center of the room he's there you can see him kind of in the corner right before it starts like he's already in place to do this they don't use just like digital put ump and always here he creeps in and how perfect is that I can't imagine the choreography in the staging of this well I think in this moment right you have this argument about like music is immortal music opens up everything music shows us our past present and future and I think the vampires are kind of short or maybe like short selling that are cheating it by you know like this is more it it feels like we were talking about the testament van lee a while ago like that power of like really you know it's like it's like a religious experience right like they're they're they're they're just being moved by everything and I think that when you put the vampire attack after this it feels like oh they are gonna rob them of this they're gonna suck all of this in and where it was special you know through sammy now they would all have that power I don't know maybe I'm crazy I don't think so like I think this is to sammy I we will share in you and your music and you will also share in ours I think I really like the vampires a lot more than you do because when I see them staring at this shot of the building on fire and they're looking at it as though the building is now gone they're seeing right through it almost like with x-ray vision I love that it's just like this literalization of like yeah the roofs on fire we did it this party's so hot when I look in the eyes of remick he looks stoked he's like I love these people I want to hang out with these people you see now I look at it like remick is like I can use this to forward my agenda like I can get them and this is going to be great like I think you could draw a line to like this is what you know happened in music right like you have all these white producers coming in taking black music and then selling it and cutting out the musician they get rich the and the musician it just doesn't you know and I feel like there's a there's a there's an exploitation I feel like what he sees there is a diamond like this will make me stronger like if I have this in my arsenal I become better but it's not about like I need their individuality it's like I just need to co-op what they're doing that's how I see it huh I mean I like that he does next way so we can come out of it with two different completely sorry so by the way this is a great time to shout out the podcast of the history of rock and 500 songs which really like how blues turned into rock and roll and it never ever ever ever shies away from a conversation about capitalism and people not getting paid what they were worth and I think that what I admire about this film is that Ryan Kugler doesn't create a fantasy world that he wants to live in he lives in this world like this movie yes there's about community and what can we do and how can we bring people together but you're never far away from the need to talk about money the twins are divided on this you know one twin is like let the community come in even if they don't have official money because they're working for plantation owners who aren't paying them an actual cash the other twin is like we need money otherwise this is going to close and then what's the point of any of this we can't keep this we can't keep community together if we don't have money and you have to talk money you know it doesn't shy away from talking money well the money that there's that whole sequence or stack is making that deal with the girl and saying hey do you want to watch my car give you ten cents and she's like okay you got it and he's like no no no there's money is always conversation I'm gonna pay you ten cents for every minute that I'm gone will that work for you yes sir no man see we talk to numbers now and numbers always got to be in conversation with each other you understand you got to negotiate now ten cents just won't work for you talking nothing goes back to me finish it twenty cents best I can do we got a deal good jumping yeah he is teaching her how to do it right it's like it's like one of the best ways you can protect people is to teach them how to talk this language of money know you're worth exactly and I think that Ryan Cootler very much knows his worth and I think that that's reflected in how we cut the deal to be like I get the rights back to this in twenty hundred percent like one of the best deals ever you know you know and it's a smart deal and and you know I know we've already talked about it at length but the idea that you know this is a movie that people thought before came out was gonna fail but I think what people don't realize is like when it comes from such a personal place from a person who knows how to make big budget movies it can't right because he can make all those things that might push you away incredibly personal right like or incredibly relatable and that's why that you're saying that's a million ideas in here yeah the movie is like let's let's put them all on the table you could take whatever you want if you want to take them all and great take them all but if you relate just to one thing you want to come in and watch a vampire movie I'm gonna pay that off a hundred percent you want to just look at hot Michael B Jordan yeah I'm gonna give you that too right I'm gonna give you romance I'm gonna give you like I'm gonna give you sex I'm gonna give you music like every element you can come out feeling uh like you got your money's worth um yeah it is sexy I really admire that about it it does not shy away from it and what I think is fun too is I mean these guys they come in like hey we're macho we know about women we're like into this whole world but our main advice on how to be good to women is like you got to please your woman we will talk to you about how to please your woman and that is in detail in detail and that becomes the runner about sex it's almost never about their pleasure although they're definitely having a good time they always it's always framed through her and that's also I think how the movie functions these guys show up they're macho they run around and then slowly all these women enter the film and then they take over well I also love that moment where you know um the shopkeeper's husband is playing cards and then the wife comes over like let's dance he's like yep got it let's go like he's not like no give me a second I'm in the middle of something like at the end of the day like she's more important than money or cards or anything right I love that idea like the women are in a pedestal here and while you can still have a complex relationship with them pushing them away pulling them in like it's not like they are you know it's a very it's multifaceted I do want to just go back to the music for a second too because we talked about Lidwig Goranson who he's worked with since the very beginning um and this one you know his wife Serena Goranson receives her first credit as a music supervisor um and I think that Lidwig thought oh this is not a movie I'm gonna have to work that hard on and you know in the sense of I'll come down every now and then we'll talk about stuff and then realize oh I need to move to New Orleans and we have to figure this out because there's like 29 distinctive musical moments that are in this film and they really were aware of not making it feel like a musical they wanted it to be authentic and organic like a part of the life of the movie diagetic to a certain degree um and figuring out like how do we create these how do we create this tone this you know this this these songs and I think they hire these brilliant musicians in here to capture that I mean I love it when you get the metal notes like the metal notes come in as the vampires start running up to the first house to make their kill which in one of the first edits of the movie that was the opening shot was Remek running up to make more vampires I like that they bury it halfway through it's such a twist but they signify it with like dun dun dun yeah that heavy metal which I mean Lidwig Goranson he talks about heavy metal as like one of his foundational influences right here and then when I was eight or nine I heard Inner Salmon for the first time by Metallica and that's when I got really passionate about music and and I also it was kind of my own thing like my dad was into the blues and and I was into heavy metal and at that also that age I didn't even understand that like all music you know even heavy metal it's all comes from the blues I mean this combination right of the blues and then the music that comes out of the blues this line that of everything that creates then mashing them back together it feels like this is a score and I try to put this into words in my review that comes from almost like the deep part of the American psyche it's like all our music united yeah no I absolutely and I what I'm even more impressed with this is a movie where the music is stunning and I love every one of his scores Lidwig's scores but this one is interesting in the sense that they started off with zero music in March and they started shooting in April which meant that they had to get so much music done because it is organic to the film and there's stories of you know like Raphael Sadiq and Lidwig like getting a song out in two hours you know and people are hearing the story and getting so affected by the story that they're inspired to write these pieces so there's a part of me that also goes back to that bigger song when when everything is mixing together it's like oh music is this uniting force music is this moment that when people hear the trauma the story the idea of what's going on they're so inspired they can tap into this giant tapestry of music to create it I'm just blown away by how quickly the music was put together well yeah and it's amazing that this movie has such a respect for music that it managed to convince the great great great great blues guitarist buddy guy to play Sammy when he's older in the 1992 flash forward and buddy guy just to put this in context he's 88 when he agrees to make this movie he's like I don't read I don't read scripts you're gonna have to give me these lines put them in my ear if I even say yes and I don't really know who you are Ryan Coogler because the last movie I ever saw in theaters was and this is his quote the fish movie which he met Jaws like he's like I do not care about this artistic medium in the slightest but they got his blessing and they shot this club that kind of looks like the club the buddy guy himself owns in Chicago buddy guy by the way still very with it he's gonna be playing here in Los Angeles I think it's September at the Hollywood Bowl for his 90th birthday which is amazing but yeah this movie's respect for the art form of blues is just baked all the way in to have him here like kind of closing us off rounding it out and I love it when you look in the club in the background he's named it after Perlene that like you know this character stays with him this whole time and I love that the end moment is like that was the best day of my life even though I lost everything every one of my friends every thing that made me safe that was I mean I get chills thinking about that like it's such a beautiful moment especially from an old man to hear that maybe once a week I wake up paralyzed reliving that night but before the sun went down I think that was the best day of my life was it like that for you no doubt about it last time I see my brother last time I seen the sun yeah and you know right even before that they're like do you want to live forever and he's like no I've seen enough you know I've seen what this world has to offer and that's where I think yeah we are looking at the same movie but from these slightly different angles you and me of yeah how much do we really think this movie is saying that the world has to offer well I want to talk about one other thing before we wrap up because I think it's important in the grand scheme of what this movie is about but the first people who reject the vampires I think are incredibly important to the entire story here which are the Choctaw Native Americans right they come they're ignored by the white man essentially right because you know these white men they are we find out later that this guy is like part of the clan they're gonna come and kill smoke and stack later on right but they dismiss these Native Americans who are coming they're saying like hey I'm telling you like various time we're here to save you we care about you and they are ignored I think that that's really interesting well I also like to that he doesn't make these characters prove that they're good guys by sacrificing themselves to save these other yahoo's life it's like we tried okay cool we're gonna take care of ourselves and go home yeah and I think that you know by the way just in general sense everything that Cougler does in this film is so period specific and smart and locked in culturally and that's the same thing for the Choctaw Indians where he used Choctaw actors and consultants and language coaches traditional sashes and and you know the there many people have come out and said like this is a beautiful tribute this is like this is you know indigenous writers you know say like this this is never kind of shown again for a very small part of the movie a very not even I wouldn't say unconsequential but it is it does speak about something right like the Native Americans can stave off and keep things trapped I think this movie does celebrate that in addition to celebrating their culture by actually portraying it the right way oh yeah Ryan has said the only false thing in this movie is the vampires I mean you could also say like part of the reason that the Chow family is here is because uh Zinzi found out that she actually has Mississippi Delta Chinese heritage and her family from I believe her father's side and so they're like oh that's amazing we have to represent that in here as well I love just like kind of putting it together what a huge inspiration Zinzi has been to him throughout his whole career I mean this is the first film that I think she's credited on as being like I am a producer but she's just had his back like this whole time I mean part of why Bianca in Creed um has a hearing loss and hearing impairment is because that's something that also is happening in Zinzi's family and she studied ASL and I just love how you feel this full world in Ryan Coogler's movies because he's just looking and listening and loving people and paying attention and I've probably said this story before but I have this really sharp memory of being in Sundance many years ago like 10 years ago and um my Uber driver was talking about all the people he had driven around at Sundance Eddie mentioned driving around Ryan Coogler and Zinzi Coogler and he was like what I loved about driving them around through Sundance was that Ryan kept asking Zinzi what she thought of things and being like okay what do you think and like really listening to her opinion first and I was like oh man you feel that in this movie Oh absolutely I think that this is like every relationship this movie is shown as a true partnership Yeah yeah exactly yeah it's and yet it doesn't sacrifice at all the idea that like this is hot you know I mean I love the Haley Seinfeld character I think she's so funny the way she comes in is just enchanted to like see all of her old friends yeah and you believe her rage and you believe her anger you believe everything about her she also by the way sang a song for the soundtrack that they didn't use and I can kind of see why it's called dangerous oh you know it our girl can sing good for her oh and also by the way weird fun fact about just the costuming of all of the characters and the background these prohibition era costumes a lot of them are made for this film what happened is that Ruth Gordon the amazing costume designer one of the absolute greats working right now she was also being the costume designer on that blade remake with Mahersha Ali that has lord only knows when that thing is coming out she made all of these clothes for that blade because that was also supposed to be set in prohibition era another vampire movie set in this time that movie hasn't happened yet I don't know what's going on with it lord only knows so they figured out how to buy those costumes at cost from marvel and then repurpose them here whoa that's amazing what blade could have looked like that's really interesting oh I love that I know if anything it makes me miss that blade even more yeah well you know what I love that Ryan has a nice relationship with marvel I'm sure that helped right to get those costumes um to keep him in the fold I really love this movie and regardless of the awards or lack of them or abundance of them or nominations like this movie has been neck and neck all award season and it's done something that I think is I'm sorry was that on purpose wait oh no Amy it was not but I'm gonna say uh yes it was um no it uh there what I think is important is it's a great movie and this movie has sustained conversation for 12 months that's impressive and I think that in the current landscape of cinema for any movie to exist past a weekend you know uh is a tremendous accomplishment um and you know and this is going to be a movie that we are going to talk about that is timeless that lives in this thing I think that we were lucky to getting a few movies that are like that this year in the academy awards across the board um but I just was really really love this rewatch me too man congrats sinners I do believe that you will live on entirely I could make it so you could stick around keep torn keep living no pain I think I've seen enough of this place you know now Amy uh everyone is talking about Project Hail Mary um it's currently in the high 90s on Rotten Tomatoes I saw it loved it and we thought maybe there is a way that we can kind of have conversation with Hail Mary because uh Ryan Gosling himself on SNL said oh Hail Mary is a little mix of interstellar and ET we've already done those so we couldn't do those so you can listen to those episodes but maybe something a little left to center and that would be Arrival yeah Arrival was what I was thinking about the whole time I was watching Project Hail Mary which I loved yeah so I'm excited I like came out of that movie and I was like I want to go watch that again and let's do it great so next week we will be talking about Arrival um you can get that wherever you're streaming films and as always check out our merch shop we have uh it's not new designs but we have some designs in there we never talk about it but we do have a merch shop and make sure you check out our sub stack as we continue this conversation about centers and you can go back and look at all of the conversations that we've had of different films we have a really fun sub stack that has videos and quotes and things that we couldn't really put on here so always make sure that you are subscribed to that to get a fun little thing in your mailbox every Sunday morning um Amy see you next time for Arrival and make sure you check out our sub stack each and every week to go a little bit deeper on the movies that we talk about here it's always free so join in the conversation Unspooled is produced by Amy Nicholson Paul Shear, Molly Reynolds and Harry Nelson sound engineered by Corey Barton Music by Devin Bryant episode art by Kim Troxell show art by Lee Jamison and social media production by Zoey Applebaum this is a realm production see you next week bye for now from the parents behind law and order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy Patrick Picklebottom everyday mysteries step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling indigmas and solves clever cases Patrick Picklebottom everyday mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grown-ups who love a good mystery the whole family can listen now wherever you get your podcasts there are names that echo in the world of true crime names that carry unanswered questions Oakley Carlson a five-year-old girl who deserved safety protection and love yet the system built to protect her failed and Oakley disappeared her community still calls her name or Ellen Greenberg found in her locked apartment with 20 stab wounds a case declared a suicide but how does a locked apartment tell two different stories at once these are not just cases we have covered they are people they were loved and they mattered their stories deserve to be told with care with death with truth i'm ashley and i'm ricky we are the husband and wife duo behind crime salad every week we uncover stories of the missing the silence the misunderstood we asked the questions that were left behind we refuse to let these stories be forgotten because behind every case is a family holding 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