Six Decades of Aviation Engineering with Jimmy Tubbs

Channel Chrome is not a product that you can specify and produce to any specification. It's a product that takes incredible knowledge and skill. Welcome to the Aviation Masters Podcast. This is Mike Bush. and today I am pleased to be talking with a dear old friend of mine, James Tubbs, who I can't call James, I have to call Jimmy. I've always known you as Jimmy. Probably the most experienced aeronautical engineer that I know with a career spanning six decades or something ridiculous. I first met Jimmy, it has to be more than 25 years ago, I think. I remember meeting you first. I walked into your office when you were at ECI. And we have been fast friends ever since. I have learned an immense amount from you. And I... Jimmy's for 30 some odd years was the vice president of engineering at Engine Components, Inc., and his parent company, Danbury Aerospace. And I'm not personally familiar with your history before that, but I think you have had a history with the military and stuff that I'd like you to tell us about because I'd like to learn about it. But there's just a whole lot of stuff I want to talk to you about today, Jimmy. And so thanks so much for being here and participating in the podcast. So, Jimmy, let me just start at the beginning because I don't know a lot about your life before ECI, but I'm really kind of curious about it. Where did you grow up? But did you grow up in the San Antonio area? West of San Antonio in the Texas Hill Country in a very small town called Utopia. Utopia? So I grew up with the... Yes. And my dad was a superintendent. My mother was a teacher. So I didn't have much chance. It isn't until I'm in trouble anyway. Well, so what first got you interested in aviation? You know, I was just pure serendipity. I did not know what I wanted to study in college, but aeronautical engineering sounded good. And so I signed up. So you weren't interested in aviation as a kid. This is something that you decided upon when you were in college. I was interested in aviation. And where did you go to school? I started out at a little school called Southwest Texas, which is now Texas State, in San Marcos, Texas, and then transferred to the University of Texas for my degree in aeronautical engineering. And I went back for graduate work a little bit later, thanks to the Air Force. Also had a little bit of graduate work in Texas A&M. So did you wind up going into the Air Force after college? I was going into the Air Force after college and had already been through everything. And then I received a call from my dad saying that a colonel had called him and asked him if I would come in and interview at Cary Air Force Base, which I did. And I told him that I was already committed into the Air Force. And he said, well, it would be better if you got a year of engineering work, and then you can go in and fly airplanes. But why don't you work with us for a year? He said, I can arrange for you to get out of your commitment, which he did. So I worked there for one year and then 17 more. And it was great and wonderful. But they sent me off to the Armed Forces Staff College for a year, and that was great in Virginia. But after that, it seemed like I was getting bogged down in a lead supervisor at the time. but it wasn't exactly what I wanted to do. I was not really doing engineering work anymore. And so I bought a company in 1984. No, I'm sorry, 1978. It was called Paul Daly Air Goods. And I changed the name to Bailey Tubbs. barrel and I ran that company for six years and then sold to Indy Components. I got a lot better joining Indy Components. So how long were you in the military before you decided to leave? You say 18 years. And what kind of stuff did you work on? Well, during that period of time, I went back, they sent me back to school to work in aerodynamics and I became the leader of the aerodynamics section out at Kelly. And we worked on the F-102, the F-106, the T-38, F-5, we had the O-2, we had the T-41, the little Cessna. then we had the C5 and before that we also had the B58 so I got to work on little ones and really big ones at some point along the line you learned to fly when was that? Well in the middle 60s a friend of mine was a pilot I was working with him out at Kelly and we went out and flew and I really had a great time. And so I started taking lessons in the 60s and got my private pilot's license about that time. Started rebuilding airplanes in my garage. Tearcraft was the first one. And then a couple of Luscombs. And we had a great time with those old airplanes. I still love the old Air Force. You were an A&P at the time? You'd gotten your A&P? Well, and I keep forgetting sections of my life, as we're talking. During my time at the Air Force, I also started teaching junior college. And in the junior college, with my friends, I put together an A&P program there, which is still in existence today. right now it's a an ANP 145 what is it 145 program so I got my ANP back in the 60s and I really don't exercise that anymore because I had to quit flying and sold my last airplane after I got into my 80s so you wound up joining ECI basically by having your company acquired by ECI. That's right. And that was in the... With grinding crankshaft. Yes, that was in the 70s and early 80s. Now, ECI started out in the 40s, right? as a cylinder chroming company? It was Gary Garvin's dad that started it or something? They started it. And Gary Garvin's was kind of the long... Yes, yes. Gary then moved to San Antonio and took over the company in about 1981, I believe, or 82. And Gary was not really an engineering guy, right? he was a business guy. Well, believe it or not, Gary had his first degree in chemical engineering. Oh, is that right? Yes. And then he got his business degree, his master's in business, I believe, in California. Stanford, I think. Yeah. And he said he was running the company when you joined. Yes. Yes. And golly, we had about 28 great years. with Gary, a very unique individual. So when you first joined ECI in the early 80s, was it? Yes, in 1984. 84. What was the company doing at that time? Was it still basically just a cylinder reconditioning company, or had it expanded beyond that? It was a cylinder reconditioning company, but they had also bought a company called AirMotive Engineering, which was in the Dallas area. And AirMotive Engineering had been working, building a lot of engine parts for the Air Force. You know, the Air Force, Kering Air Force was the, what we called the SPO, or they had the AC, well, I can't remember all the acronyms, But they had the T-41, they had several airplanes, and they had all the engineering data for the continental and life-oving engines that were used in those military airplanes. And so, automotive engineering was manufacturing a lot of parts for the Air Force, and then they're starting developing the PMAs. and they had quite a number of PMAs when Injipopora purchased them and moved them to San Antonio. So when they were developing the parts for the Air Force, they didn't require PMAs for that? No, they did not. That's only for civilian? That's correct. And then a little later on, we realized we needed to get more into the PMA business to support the products that we were overhauling. And so we started getting more piston rings and a few pistons. I started manufacturing pistons at ECI in San Antonio at the time. And so we were 10 PMA for quite a number of the parts, primarily for cylinders at the time. The focus was on power assemblies, but you were going beyond just the cylinder itself to the piston and the rings, piston pins and stuff. They were really the largest cylinder overhaul facility, but they also were overhauling crankcases. And then my company brought the crankshafts and camshafts. And my very first crankshaft, when I was working with my own business, I needed to buy a crankshaft grinder and aircraft special service services. Greg Merrill and his partner sold me my very first crankshaft grinder and told me how to use it to go in competition with them. Yeah, that's a great company. Yes, it is. So take me a little bit on the journey on the cylinder processes, because I know initially it was all channel chrome reconditioning. That was kind of what ECI was famous for. And then things progressed into other processes, the sermicrobe and then sermonelle. and ultimately manufacturing the new cylinders that were under the Titan brand. Talk to us a little bit about that progression. Yes. Well, when I joined DCI, chrome plate was a big thing, the channel chrome. And even today, channel chrome is not a product that you can specify and produce to any specification. It's a product that takes carbon knowledge and skill. There's no way to manage. It's more art than science. It is more art than science. That is correct. And if it's done just right, it works great. And if it's not done just right, it's a disaster. And the break-in is a real problem, even when it's done right. So the channel chrome served the great need at the time. It was started during the World War II timeframe. the process was actually developed in the Netherlands by Vanderheer. And they brought it to the U.S. And Gary's dad started doing the process back in 1946, I believe, in the Chicago area. And that was the start of DCI. It was originally electric coatings, and they're still in electric coatings, which was a parent company. Then ECI grew out of that. But this was always a process for reconditioning cylinders, not for building new cylinders, right? That is true. Although, you know, ECI at one time or another actually did channel chrome cylinders for both Lycoming and Continent. Yeah, but channel chrome is still a process that's not used as much as it used to be, but it had a lot of advantages. I mean, it was very, very durable and didn't corrode and stuff. As long as you didn't mind throwing a lot of oil in the engine, it's a pretty good process, right? Yes, it is a good process. In fact, if it's done correctly and broken incorrectly, then break-in is the big issue with channel chrome and with a lot of other, you know, with all cylinders. But particularly with the channel chrome, the break-in is a big issue. But if the channel chrome is correct, has the right crosshatch, has the right pattern and the right channels, and also has a good crosshatch, and you break it incorrectly, they're great cylinders, and they'll go to TGL with no trouble at all. But because of the fact that it was more of a process that required special skills, it couldn't be controlled. We were looking for another process. And we happened to be at Laysdale in England and watching them produce cylinders for, I believe it was Dotson at the time. And they were honing the silicon carbide into the chrome bores. And we watched some of the break in, and it broke in really great and seemed to be a great process. and Gary Garland was very enamored with it and that is what became channel chrome. We brought it back to the U.S. You mean sermichrome? Yes. You said channel chrome, but you meant sermichrome, yeah. And I remember sermichrome was kind of all the rage for, I don't know, five years or something. But it did seem to have a problem in that I guess the silicon carbide particles only occupied the very outer surface layer of the bore so that once it wore down a little bit, you'd suddenly get sudden increases in well consumption as the cylinder became non-wettable, right? Yes. Well, that was what the evidence that everybody out in the field was seeing. But that was not the root cause of the problem. It turned out that the root cause of the problem was a change in the piston ring manufacturing without us knowing about it. And I won't go into any names or details, but the piston ring manufacturer at the time changed from a ring material, which we know is AMS 7310, to something more like AMS 7311, even though the certificates we were receiving were showing the 7310 configuration. and because we had I had moved my lab from the New Bromfields Airport area back to San Antonio to consolidate our engineering back in San Antonio some of our equipment was down for almost a year and we didn't we did not catch that change and actually the engineers at Perfect Circle were the ones who were able to identify that change and the problems. But it was just too late to thermochrome at the time. It had already seemed too bad about. But it is still being done today by another company in the Tulsa area. And they're still... Is that what they call new chrome? Yes, that's what they call new. And that's basically the same ceramic impregnated chrome process like ceramic chrome, similar. Yes, that is correct. That is correct. But now the correct piston rings are available and they do work and it works fine. So in the wake of the issues that you had with Cermachrome, which turned out to be a ring issue, but nobody knew it at the time, I guess, you transitioned then to nickel plating of the cylinders. Yes. Where did that process come from? And we were having the trouble with the thermochrome, of course. Gary was looking around at other processes. And we were looking at the portions that had the nickel cylinder boards. And we were also looking at other processes like thermal sprays and quite a number of other processes at the time. but Jerry really liked the nickel carbide plating process and so we started working in-house we talked to the original manufacturers of that nickel carbide plating process and they didn't want to work in aviation that was also a process that came from the automotive world yes it was a process that came from the automotive world and so So we started doing experiments in a facility that we set aside and worked on that for about a year, a year and a half before we got to the point we were comfortable with it. And then we ran full FIA certification tests on that process also. But we went through a FIA part 33 engine test using TSIO 520 engines. And if I recall correctly, that nickel was a little bit more challenging in terms of adhesion to the steel substrate than chrome was? Yes. Chrome really adheres well. I mean, it's got a strong bond. Nickel is a little more problematic. And so I guess over time periods we would have things that would creep into the process sometimes maybe a little moisture in the vapor home process that we use just ahead of And, you know, it was a problematic chemical issue that had to be really monitored. and so it was never something that we could just walk away from and let it run. It was always something that had to be dealt with. And then one of the things that we found to do was to, after we had processed the cylinders, put them back in the oven and let them bake. And if there was an adhesion problem, we would get a bubble in the nickel and we would then reject that so then go back and do it over again. That helped a great deal. So it sounds like all of these processes are tricky, huh? You were saying that the channel chrome was pretty tricky and to get it right, more to it than meets the eye. What were the main advantages of the nickel process compared to the chrome? The nickel process, break-in was one of the greatest advantages. It broke in really quick. It broke in, and then once the break-in was achieved, it had great wear, and those cylinders that worked great, that didn't have any nickel pill, would go to TBO, no problem. It also, you know, with any type of chrome, The only piston ring that you can use is the cheapest cast iron that you can make. It's a great cast iron, and it's the only thing that works. Because you're not really breaking in the cylinder, right? You're breaking in the rings. That's right. You're breaking in the rings. You know, we put about a one-and-a-half degree taper on the face of the rings to give a sharp edge to wear in quickly. And with the nickel carbide, the top ring would usually wear 80% to 90% across the face. And the second ring were about halfway across the face. and at the end of TDO, a lot of them would look just like that. There would be no more wear on the rings throughout the last day of the engine. Now, you had a ring problem with the nickel cylinders too, as I recall, that there was an issue with that number one compression ring at one point? Yes. And that was a supplier issue. That was a supplier issue. Those rings were molly filled. They had a groove in the outer forehead. And molybdenum was better sprayed into the rings. And again, if it wasn't done exactly right, you had an adhesion problem. And so we had some of those that the molybdenum was coming out of the face of the rings. and again that that was always a real warranty problem and you wind up changing ring suppliers or something to resolve that yes we did we changed ring suppliers and again pretty much solved that problem and in fact I'm told today that the original ring manufacturer that we were using has resolved those issues and I think They may be producing rings for others now. It's really working great. Yeah, it's remarkable how sensitive all of these processes are. Just little things can cause big problems. It's really interesting. So anyway, after you guys were producing the nickel-plated cylinder process, the Sermonel process for some years, you decided to start actually manufacturing new cylinders with that process rather than it being strictly a reconditioning process, right? Yes. We had actually started doing more PMA parts a little earlier than that, finishing out all of the things that we needed for the cylinders. We were getting the PMA for the valves. that we had the valve through our molding engineering. We had the valve guides and valve seats, a lot of the studs. But then we got the valve springs, the frame retainers and keepers and things like that to finish up so we could produce all the parts for the repaired cylinders. And one of the things that we had gotten from our molding engineering was also the weave barreling process. So we were making new cylinder barrels anyway. So the only thing we didn't have was the cylinder head. That's right. I had forgotten that. But at one point, ECI was actually putting new barrels on old cylinder heads. Yes, that is correct. And then one of the other processes that we started doing, because the cylinder heads were getting old, and the aluminum heads were, over time, would go ahead and go back to their natural atomic state and get soft. So we started taking the heads and the barrels apart and reheat treating the cylinder heads during the repair process and then putting the barrels back on. And that worked very well. Yeah, it's always amused me a little bit that we keep track of total end time and service, and TBOs are based on that. But the time that really matters, it was the time on cylinder heads, and we don't track that. Nobody knows how much time is on their cylinder heads. That's correct. Which always seemed crazy to me. We did advocate that it didn't go anywhere to go ahead and make the cylinders an item that needed to be tracked. Generalize them and keep track like some of the turbine engine parts. Mm-hmm. That would have made sense. Nobody seemed to think that was a good idea, but yes. Yeah. Now, the reconditioning of cylinders seems to have kind of dropped out of favor as the price of new cylinders started coming down, where it was no longer economically that worthwhile to be reconditioning cylinders. So is that what prompted you to start building the new cylinders? Well, Gary always wanted to move towards immunity. That was one of his dreams. Gary was a very unusual person, and ECI was a very unusual company because I don't really think that Gary was in business to try to make a fortune. He was in business to do what he wanted to do, and making new parts was something that he just wanted to do. So we moved in that direction. And then, Lally, I'm trying to remember the man, Alvin Hickey, that owned Pearl Arrow out of Canada, came down and visited with us. and in the meeting he convinced Gary that we needed to start making more parts and products and including all the way to new engines and I can still remember that meeting very vividly and that kind of was a kick start for us to really move into the engine business So then we had the crank cases and accessory cases and slumps and crank shafts connecting rods. We were already making pellets. So ultimately, you were building complete engines. They were basically Lycoming clones. I don't know if clones or improved clones or something. Well, they really were originally just plums. And we made a few minor variations. We were doing the intake seats. We were making the Venturi intake seat, and we had a good flow bench. And so we could take the cylinders and work with the intake ports and the valve seats. and we were able to get a little bit more power out of the engines. And then, yeah, we were sitting around and working with my test cell manager, Bobby Looper, kicking things back and forth, and we just speculated. I wonder what would happen if we stroke those engines a little bit. I wonder if it would make any difference. and since we were we started having some crankshafts made for us over in England again this company called Leistall and then Leistall decided that they were going to go out of business and sold us all the equipment but it was 1930s equipment so I mean it was it was really archaic But it worked. So we were making crankshafts at DCI. So since we were making cranks, it wasn't hard to change the strokes. So we played with different strokes. And we couldn't believe what we got. That was the start of the 375. And then again, sitting around with Bobby Looper, we said, wonder what would happen if, you know, Lycoming had a 340. What if we stoked that 320 crank right between the 320 and the 360 and see what how it worked. And it worked great. And that, along with cum crackers, became the birth of the 340 engines. But these were all being sold as experimental engines, right? So you weren't having to deal with certification on them. Well, we did do an ASTM certification on the 340 engine. And we were in the process of running a full certification program on the 370 when ECI was sold to Continental Motors. And then they transferred the project to the eastern region and completed that type step. So that engine is now certified? That engine is now certified, yes. Now, I remember when you were going through that certification process with the FAA, was it the Northwest region that was doing it or something? I'm trying to remember. Northwest region was doing that. We were working with them. Those guys had a good reputation for being workable with. But the point I was going to bring up is I remember when you were going through that process and you and I were talking and we were talking about the possibility of getting the engine certified without a TBO. You remember? To certify an engine to be run strictly on condition, which is I think something both of us believe very strongly in. Yes. The FAA was not comfortable with that. Well, let me just say that the FAA has changed and they put the TBO in the engine limitation section of the manuals, which then allows them to control that because you have to get AEG approval for that section of the manual. So TVO was no longer a recommendation of the manufacturer. It was controlled by the FAA. And they believed that any new certification required you to get a very low TVO, something like 700 or 800 hours to start. And as we tried to explain to them, there was no way to sell an engine with a $700 or $800 TDO. Of course. So what we did is that we decided and proposed to the FAA that we do a known condition evaluation, that we actually monitor the engines to get the $2,000 TDO that we were looking for. and I talked to you about it because we were going to use your services to guide us with the background, the way to help control the lead the fleet situation so we could monitor the engines and continue to TVO if they would follow your program. and the FAA was in favor of that and the manager of the of the engine director in fact very much was in favor of it and unfortunately at the end he was overridden and I'm not sure by who but he was much apologetic Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking now that the Rotax 900 series, when they certified that engine, I think it was originally like a 1,200-hour TBO. And then they worked it all up to 2,000 hours over time. but I've never been clear on the FAA's whole concept of TBO maybe you can help me understand it where they require the manufacturer to establish a TBO as a condition of certification and then they tell operators, at least Part 91 operators Well, you don't have to pay any attention to that. You can run the engine to however long you want. So what is even the function of TBO? It's not a life limit. What is it? It's not in Part 91 for sure. And, Mike, I wish I could explain that to you. I don't know. There's a whole lot about some things I just don't understand. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think... I'd be a little careful what I said. No, you don't. You shouldn't be careful what you said. The statute of limitations is run, Timmy. What can they do? They have several certification programs and work. Well, don't get any of those people mad at you, that's for sure. But, you know, I do think that Part 135 operators theoretically are supposed to have to comply with TBO, but they routinely ask for TBO extensions. I remember the guy that was my designated mechanic examiner back when I got my A&P certificate was the director of maintenance of probably the second largest fleet of Cessna 402s in the world. It was operating out of Las Vegas. They were sightseeing airplanes. They fill those things up with as many Japanese tourists and Nikon cameras as they could squeeze in, and then they go fly them over the Grand Canyon. And he worked with the local FISDO there and got a 50% TBO extension for his whole fleet. They were 1,600-hour engines, and he got approval to run them to 2,400 hours. And, of course, he never had any problem getting there. but I mean these airplanes were poster children for TBO extension they lived in Las Vegas there was no corrosion and they flew every day and they probably could have gone to 4,000 hours but it's just always been curious to me that this whole notion of TBO where it's not a life limit it's just not clear exactly what the function of TBO is I just really don't know. And by the way, that operator with the 402s, he was the very first person to fly the Sermicron other than us. Oh. With him down through the Grand Canyon all over the place. What a wonderful, wonderful flight with the first Sermicron engine. Oh, that's interesting. Small world. Yeah. But why don't we talk about something a little less fun that I was heavily involved with you at the time. And that is the AD that came out against the Titan cylinders. That was a pretty painful experience. And I think the statute of limitations on that one has run pretty well. Yes. So I guess I can go ahead and speak my mind on that one. Yeah, please do. Well, as you know, Mike, we did a lot of studying, and we built some specialized equipment, and then we conducted a lot of estimated testing. And we estimated cylinders. Well, let me start you back. Let me start you back a little bit earlier. What is it that prompted the AD in the first place? There were some cylinder head fingers. And the cylinder heads were splitting at the threads between the threads and the threads and the threads and the barrels. and the heads were splitting around, and then the head would move off about a half an inch to an inch away from the cylinder barrel. Right, I remember seeing some of those. And you gave me a lesson in cylinder head 101 back in the day, and you explained to me that those threads are not what holds the cylinder head on the barrel, that they help assemble the barrel, but it's really the friction band that holds it. And if there's stress on the threads, it means that the friction band has failed too. Here comes the show and tell. We're going to assemble a cylinder. The seal band. What's that? I said we're going to assemble a cylinder, right? Are you here? Mm-hmm. You're right. Well, we don't have enough heat in here to get that head hot enough to assemble it. It won't go together today. But that seal band there has a corresponding area in the cylinder head, and that interference fit acts like a great shock absorber, And it keeps the stress from inside the cylinder head. And it keeps that stress from that very first thread. And if you don't have that interference fit there, there is no way that the head can withstand the stresses. Right, because the thread is a stress riser, right? if the repetitive stress of combustion is bearing on those threads, that's definitely going to crack. Oh, yeah. You're looking at, you know, between 20,000 and 30,000 pounds of load going down, trying to push that head off the barrel. Some ungodly number of cycles too, right? Yes. So it's the unthreaded part of the junction that's supposed to do the work of holding the head and the barrel together. That is correct. And I remember watching the assembly process not at ECI but I remember down in Mobile when I was at the factory at Continental And they used to do it by hand They had a guy that would pull the heads out of the oven and pull the barrels out of the refrigerator and spin them together with a big giant kind of a strange wrench. And then when the temperatures equalized, you would have this interference fit. and the head and the barrel were joined forever at that point. Because as long as they were both heating up or cooling down together, you'd maintain that fit. That's right. But he assembled Will Selmer for many, many years. Oh, yeah. He was a wonderful guy, a black guy, just a great guy. It was just so much fun to watch him work. And then I guess he retired and they replaced him with a machine and took all of the romance out of it. As you know, the aluminum in the cylinder's head is not one of the strongest aluminum. There are many aluminum that are a lot stronger. But it has a unique characteristic in that when you overage these cylinders to what we call the T76 configuration, it locks in that heat-treat condition. And it'll whisk down a lot of heat without losing that heat-treated configuration. So it's a metastable aluminum, the old A242 aluminum. It's very unique. It's got unique heat-treating characteristics. You know heat-treated like other aluminums. But it's the only thing that's ever worked. And all the cylinders made by Continental, Lycoming, Superior, ECI, Pratt & Whitney, they're all made out of the A242 outlaw. It's a copper and magnesium alloy and very unusual, but it's not particularly strong. And if you don't have the interference dip in that seal band area, then it transfers the loads right down to that thread area, that stress riser, and it starts in fatigue phase. and what we saw during the prior to the AD and in fact we also had an AD on the Lycons and what we saw in all of those cylinders the pale ones that had been heated and you can tell a heated cylinder because they changed color there's of course a lot of heat up in the rocker box areas So you mean they're overheated? They were overheated. That's correct. And when you say overheated, does that mean that they were actually run at a cylinder head temperature beyond red line, do you think? Yes. Absolutely. The greatest thing that has happened to cylinders in general aviation airplanes today are the current engine monitors. The current, you know, even our 414 airplane only had a CHT in the number four cylinder. And it was not a thermocouple. And it did not touch the cylinder head. And when we put thermocouples on the cylinder in there, we found 50 and 60 degree differences between the CHT readings that we're getting versus the ones that had a grounded thermocouple that would touch the back of the cylinder head. And they are there. Big, big differences. Plus, the cooling systems on those legacy aircraft were sufficiently crude that it was very common to have large spreads between CATs on different cylinders. And the factory gauges were only instrumenting one cylinder, and it wasn't necessarily always going to be the hottest cylinder. That is correct. Absolutely right. And we have found out, and as you have pointed out to me a lot, there are many factors that can cause a cylinder head temperature to start running away. And it can happen, and it can happen fast. And, you know, the thing about engine monitors today is that the pilot gets an immediate indication and gets a warning. And I think that's the greatest thing that's happened to cylinders. And, in fact, I think aviation safety. It's made a tremendous difference. Well, sometimes they get a warning. Not all engine monitors have alarms, and not all the alarms are set. You know, for example, the engine monitor, I have my Cessna 310. Its alarm output is hooked to a light that's sitting right smack in front of me, right on top of the attitude indicator where I can't miss it. And it's set to go off any time a CHT exceeds 400 degrees. But if my engine monitor was installed as a primary replacement engine monitor, those alarms would be hardwired to 460 degree redline. Well, I don't want to be alarmed when my cylinder gets to 460. That's too late. So I still think there's a lot of work that needs to be done here. Not all the engine monitors provide any alarms unless you're actually looking at them. And frequently, they're not right in the middle of your scan. and frequently the alarms are hardwired to the manufacturer's red lines, which to me is kind of like an emergency temperature. It's not a normal operating temperature. So let me – anyway, I was going to go back to what triggered the AD to begin with. There were some head-to-barrel separations involving the Titan cylinders that you ultimately determined was due to kind of power plant management errors on the part of the pilots. And possibly just the fact that they didn't have enough instrumentation to do it right or possibly that they weren't paying attention. But were the head-to-barrel separations significantly more frequent than, say, OEM cylinders? Because, I mean, there have been plenty of head-to-barrel separations in continental and lycobic cylinders, especially continental. That is true. But as a project, as one of the engineers told me, we can't worry about them. we're looking at you. Yeah, because I mean, you can't build a cylinder that can survive any possible conditions that a pilot's going to make that cylinder tolerate. Obviously, it's our job as pilots to keep the temperatures under control. But at any rate, so they decided that they were worried about these head-to-barrel separations. So tell me how things unfolded once this process started. Well, we ran estimated engine tests on our test cell. We instrumented in the cylinder heads right at the top of the thread with minotaur strain gauges inside the cylinder heads. And it was really interesting to see that you could then measure the strain right at the top of the threads in operation. And setting the engine at 2700 RPM and a full manifold pressure in the TSIL 520 NB engine. And then just start raising the temperature. and as the temperature increased in the cylinder heads, we had controlling airflow on each cylinder. And so we could watch the stresses as the CHT increased. And you get a little bit of an increase in stress until you hit 460 degrees or so, plus or minus about 15 degrees. and then the stress would turn up and go right beyond the endurance limit and then right beyond the yield stress of the cylinder heads as that took to went up from there. So it was obvious what the cause was. When the sill band was losing its pitch fit due to the heating of the cylinder heads, the stresses down in the threads were increased beyond the ability of the cylinder to stay together. So let me ask you the threshold question at this point. Given the fact that you instrumented these things at this pretty remarkable level that I don't think would have been possible 10 years before, did you then have data that you felt proved definitively that the cylinders would not the head to barrel separations would not occur if the cylinders were operated within their design limits within the red line? Well, and here's where I'm glad the statuable limitations are gone. because we put together a report with all of the data, and we called the FAA and said we would like to make a presentation at the region that was responsible. And they said we can talk to them. And so at that point in time, we had to make a decision, how are we going to carry this forward? It was going to be an extremely expensive AD for the flying public. Oh, yeah. And so what we decided to do, I called a friend that I knew that worked for the NTSB and said, you know, here's what we got. What do we do? We can't show this to anybody. and he said well just so happens i'm going to be in the washington office tomorrow there's any way you can get there with your report so i said sure so we jumped on an airplane and went to washington dc and briefed the ntsb the next day they they were very interesting they asked a lot of good questions they they challenged us and challenged us good on on our protocol how we did the instrumentation, how we calibrated the instrumentation, all of the things that they should have done. And then they agreed with us and said, that's fine, but we're not the FAA. Yeah, they're not the guys doing the AD. So they said, why don't you call the engine directory, which we did. We contacted Wayne McGuire, the engine directory. And he said, oh, this is difficult. He said, but you know what? I don't care. Why don't you come up here and give me a presentation? So we jumped on an airplane in Washington. And the next day, and we made a presentation to the engine record and they did have some people from the ACO on the telephone. And Wayne McGuire is a real gentleman and he agreed with us that we had identified the possible cause for the cylinder failures. But he said, all I can do is advise, he said, the ACO is they're managing the AD. And what I didn't realize is that apparently when you get an AD program to that position, there is a tremendous investment in, what would I say, the people that it started didn't want to complete very good in there. and we were able to delay it for a couple of years, but it finally didn't go through. And the ACO was just not receptive to the data? Because, I mean, isn't the ACO supposed to be the show me the data guys? Yeah. But they didn't want to see your data. I know they did see it. They just didn't want it sent. Yeah. Well, I remember back then I had written an editorial. It was more like a diatribe. And the title of it was Ending the War on Jugs. And I basically said that between – this was the Fort Worth ACO. You don't have to say it, but I'll say it. And between what they were doing to the ECI cylinders and what they were doing to the superior millennium cylinders, it's just like, you know, they just didn't like cylinders. And they wanted to get rid of them all. It was just a terrible episode. And I felt. They did not like PMAs. They did not like PMA. But, I mean, from what I know about the PMA process, and you know a thousand times more about it than I do, but it is every bit as rigorous and difficult to get a PMA part FA approved as it is for an OEM to get something approved on a type certificate, right? That is correct. It's the same regulation regardless. You go through the same testing, you have to meet the same criteria. So what was the problem with PMA? That's just been the feeling that I've gotten, that they felt that the OEMs were the knowledgeable people and the PMAs were usurpers. And, you know, in that particular ACO, their jurisdiction included a lot of PMAs. So they had a lot of people that they could make their lives miserable. Wow. Yes. So is it fair to say that AD and what was primarily responsible for ECI being sold to Continental? No, actually, the reason ECI was sold to Continental is that Gary had passed away. and the family just was not interested in maintaining the company. I see. You know, we had 100 and some odd employees, and most of those lost their jobs pretty quick. Yeah, it was very sad. And, I mean. Yes, it was. It was really something that the GA community didn't need because the competition provided by PMA suppliers, I think, is very, very valuable. It's what keeps parts prices in check. I remember one time I did a study of Lycoming parts prices, comparing the Lycoming prices for parts that had PMA equivalents and Lycoming prices for parts where they were the sole supplier. And the difference was like two to one. I mean, it was just the, you know, if you're the sole supplier of a part, you can pretty much charge whatever you want. If you have competition, then the market helps bring things in line. And I mean, airplane parts are very expensive to begin with, but sole source parts can be ridiculous. And so from that standpoint, it was difficult to see the loss of ECI. after all of the ECI's PMAs were acquired by Continental I know for a while they were producing nickel cylinders but I'm not sure they're doing it anymore am I right about that? so nickel cylinders are new nickel cylinders are really no longer available Well, they are available from Aircraft cylinders of America, I haven't told so. On a reconditioning basis. On a reconditioning basis. Right. But you can't buy new nickel cylinders anymore. I do not believe you can. Yeah, and that seems like a shame too. Okay, so the acquisition of ECI by Continental was about 10 years ago or so? It was 10 years ago. Almost exactly. So tell me what you've been doing the last 10 years. What kind of trouble you've been getting into in the last 10 years? More than that. You know, Mike, at this age, I've been blessed because I'm able to still do exactly what I want to do. I love it. And I give up every morning. And, you know, I make this little walk over to my office. And that's going to work. and I spend my day doing exactly what I love. But Continental made me a really good offer, and I've got to say that they did treat me right. But I knew that they only had a one-year lease on the facility in San Antonio, and I knew that if I did go to work for Continental Motors, I would have moved to Mobile. And Opshell and I talked about it and decided that that just wasn't in the cards for us. So I retired. You graduated. I graduated. So I retired for about a day and a half. And I got a call from Tim Archer from Superior Airport. and uh and tim made me an offer and uh so i said sure and i'm i took my motor home up to uh the valvus area and stayed up there four to five days a week for a for a while uh working with superior um after um and they're they're a great company you know and uh you were helping them with With PMA stuff, with getting certification of parts and stuff? Yes. So your real love in life is fighting with the FAA, Jimmy, right? I guess you're right. But, you know, then Tim left Superior and started another company. And then he made me another offer that I couldn't refuse. And so I worked with him at Bluestine Innovations for about three years. and then I turned it. What were you working on at Blue Sky? What were you working on at Blue Sky Innovations? Blue Sky Innovations. It was an aviation management company as much as anything, but we were starting to work on putting together an engine test cell at the Nebraska facility. And, you know, we were going to rebuild the old ECI engine test cell at New Brothels Airport. And we were going to go into the PMA business. And so we were working on that very diligently when things happened and we had to shut it down. So I went on into the consulting business and I been very fortunate in that but at the same time another gentleman who you may know Terry Bowden who was an aircraft. Terry and I started another little company called Airborne Components. I took engine components and automotive engineering. I was going to say, that's a very familiar ring to it. Right. And we have a little PMA. We have PMAs, our facility, our inspection facilities in Wisconsin. We were working with the Chicago ACO. And you may have known the Chicago ACO back when Tim Smyth was the head of that was really a great place to work with. and we were getting our PMAs and we have now a number of PMAs. The largest one is we're making our 2,800 cylinders. That's been a tough project. Getting the PMA was not difficult, but getting the cylinders manufactured has been a well-hearted. But the company doing the of the cylinder heads has been recently bought out by a very good company. And we've got really high hopes that we're going to start getting very good product out again. The cylinder barrels, we're making the barrels, but we haven't been able to make enough heads to go with the barrels. So that's been a very interesting program. That R-2800 cylinder is a, is a real complex part. And we have a few other PMAs. We have some DC-6 parts. We're doing PMAs on brakes. And we've got some other PMAs. We're really trying to look back at the legacy airquivants and legacy engines and try to keep some of these old things flying. We've got PMAs on Warner Pistons. We've got PMA on Pistons for the VO435. We're still waiting on the PMA on the rigs for the 290s, 340s. I mean, 290s and 435s and the VO435. and so we're having a lot of fun. Let me ask you a question that I don't know if you're going to answer it or not. But it sort of sounds to me like one of the things you have become a master of is forum shopping with regard to certification. that you know who the easy ACOs to work with and the difficult ACOs to work with. And it seems like that's uncovering a fundamental flaw in the process. It shouldn't make a huge difference where you're located in the country as to how hard it should be to get a PMA. But in fact, apparently it is. What's wrong with the process and how does it get fixed? I know the FAA did this massive reorganization a few years ago, but it's not clear to me that that made anything better. It may have made it worse. What do you think about this whole issue of why certification is so difficult and variable? It really has to do with the personnel. I had known Tim Smyth for quite a number of years. He was the head of the certification branch there at the Chicago ECO. And he had some great people working for him there. and we just found it was easier to work with those individuals than it was anywhere else. And so that's why we have our facility in Wisconsin. As you know that we organize now, there's a eastern, central, and western regions. I don't know what they call them, regions anymore. but so now Fort Worth, Chicago, and Kansas City are all one big organization. But I will also say that we're working with some young engineers now from the West And we're also in the Fort Worth area that are that are reasonable and working with us and trying to make things happen. So I mean, I'm a little bit excited. Again, it's a personnel type. So if you get the right project engineer that is interested in the program, it's got some engine knowledge. or if you're working on an airframe, the airframe model it. They make it fun to make sure that you develop and solidify a safe product. How easy is it to find FAA certification people that know anything about reciprocating engines? Aren't most of them come from a turbine background? It is somewhat difficult. Well, there are a few that do have some knowledge, but golly, the personnel, the changes in the FAA have been fairly significant. A lot of personnel that did have the knowledge are retired or moved on. and but you know that's not as important Mike as it is find somebody that's interested in the aviation and is willing to work with us yeah if you get you know somebody that has no experience at all and really wants to learn and work with us that works fine too yeah I mean I know we're facing a similar thing in the maintenance area with the mechanic shortage. A lot of the most experienced general aviation AMPs have retired or moved on to something else. And a lot of corporate memory is lost that way. But on the other side of the coin, the young mechanics who are coming in and there aren't nearly enough of them. But they seem to be much more open-minded to adopting new techniques and new approaches. We're trying to make them knowledgeable about engine monitor data analysis and bore scope image analysis and all of that kind of stuff that the older gray beard mechanics said, we don't need those stinking bore scopes. And so it's, you know, it's on one hand, we're losing experience to attrition and retirement and so on. But on the other hand, the new guys seem anxious to learn the more modern way of doing things, which is encouraging to me. um how much how much are you dealing with it sounded like quite a bit supply chain issues and i mean we i think we're still dealing with a bunch of supply chain issues that started in in covid and they're still still not not resolved that that is true we've we've had some real supply chain issues. Now, we just found out that one of the testing houses that we had used in the past that had some issues, some quality issues, has been purchased by a new company, and we're working with them now on some parts. In addition to the airmotive components, I have my own little consulting company, at top zero engineering. And so I'm doing engineering support for several other companies. And getting parts manufactured is very difficult. You can find very good companies that have a lot of capability. But when you mention aviation, they say, no, no way. But we are starting to find and A couple of companies that we're working with now have been purchased by very reputable companies that do want to work with us, and we're excited about that. So as we move forward, we'll see how that transpires, especially the ones that were trying to machine our 2,800 cylinder heads. See, those cylinder heads are made out of forging. They're not made out of castings. and you have to machine out the fins. And that's a pretty tough job. But they've been bought out by Windsor. And Windsor knows cylinders because they make seats and guides and those kind of parts. So they understand what we're trying to do. And I'm really getting excited about them. Let me ask you an off-the-wall question. And I don't know if this is something that you've ever spent any time looking at. But one of the things that I've been disappointed in is the failure of diesel engines to get to any sort of critical mass in general aviation. it seemed to me when I was looking at things 10 or 15 years ago that diesels had a good chance of being like really the future of piston general aviation and yet and there have been you know a whole bunch of diesel projects but almost none of them other than other than the diamond I guess have really made it to market Do you have any thoughts about that? And what are your feelings about diesels? Well, the only one that I'm really familiar with is Valtahawk. And I was fortunate enough to work with them a little bit on their certification project. Ah. And just a lot. I did work on their crankshaft vibration testing. And I've been impressed with the way the engine runs. I've never flown it. Well, I haven't flown anything in quite a while since I got too old to fly. Yeah, I saw their prototype where they had one, I guess, in a Cirrus SR20 up at AirVenture. Yeah, yes. Yes. And other than the fact that it had too many flex hoses for my taste, my taste. I thought it was very interesting, and I really liked the concept. Well, I have hopes for them because I really like the people. So, I'm hoping that they do all right with that. There are some really good engineers that are working there now. Yeah, I would be very excited to see a diesel project that really got going. Cessna had a diesel 182 that they canceled at the last minute. They had a diesel 172 that they canceled at the last minute. I guess Piper has had a diesel PA-28 of some sort that was using the engine that Continental acquired. But there had never been any significant number of them flying. Really, only the diamond is the only one where there's significant numbers of them flying. Yeah. And I don't know. You know, there's certainly a lot of reticence in people to accept it. And it's hard to know what you have to do to overcome that. Well, I mean, for years, the problem was you couldn't build one light enough. but there now have been several existence proofs that you can, including the Delta O. So it's clearly a soluble problem. Now it's just a question of how you get a major manufacturer like Cirrus or somebody to go with it. Yes, well, you know, there are some opportunities. I don't know how they'll be discussed, but I do know that there's a man out in South Lake Tahoe that has some technology that I'd like to see develop, where he's been able to produce some diesel engines that have ignition sources that are not just the compression ignition. and they've shown pressure spikes that are not that much different than gasoline engines. And so if he could get some support, I think he could make some headway because if you can keep the pressure pipes and the combustion back down into the 1,000 PSI range, then you can lighten up the engines and do a great bit. You can run it on a lot of different fuels. You could actually do that and still run it on jet A? Yes, yes. Yeah, Greg has produced a lot of engines. I guess he's developed and built prototypes of maybe 50 or 60 engines, all for the military. And nothing has gone beyond the prototype stage. Yeah, well, that's what we're seeing a lot. And I guess part of the problem is it takes an immense amount of capital to get a project like that through certification. And a lot of companies just run out of money before they get there. Yes. And that's a problem. And then Greg had some unfortunate, you know, a couple of years ago, one of the things snow crushed in the roof of his shop and run most of his big machining centers. so that's been a been a kind of a drag on him but he's got some he's got some interesting technology yeah well I really wonder what the future of owner flown aviation is going to be like over the next 5 or 10 years you know for the last few years I've been driving a car that actually that's a lie it's been driving me and it's always seemed to me that a self-flying airplane would be a whole lot simpler problem than a self-driving car and self-driving cars now are are complete reality i mean it's i i've i've been a beta tester of it basically for years now and watching it get progressively better month by month year by year to the point now that i just never have to touch anything so I wonder about autonomous airplanes seems to me the hardest part of flying an airplane is the landing and they've already got auto land now in little airplanes seems to me that as our airplanes become more more computers with wings on them that we should be able to start having more self-diagnosing airplanes too. When something goes wrong, the airplane will troubleshoot itself. And a lot of that happens in airlines now. You know, 787s and stuff have sensors on literally everything you could put a sensor on. And when the airplane lands in Abu Dhabi, the mechanics know exactly what needs to be done. Because the airplane's been talking to them the whole time. I kind of wonder whether we're all going to have, like, personal quadcopters or something to fly around in. We want to go get our groceries. It's quite possible. Just flying drones, I found, you know, the stability that they have that's built into the system. It's incredible. Just directly where you want it to go. Why is it? and uh but but i i guess i'm probably like a lot of people i may be too old to really embrace a lot of the technology my uh my one of my daughters and her husband have a couple of tesla cars and a cyber club and uh they picked me up to go to a football game here not too long ago and when we pulled out of our driveway, he never touched it until we pulled in the parking lot to the football game. Oh, Kimmy, I think if the Cybertruck didn't look like what it looks like, you'd probably own one by now. But I'm on my third Tesla And I just think it's a remarkable achievement, really. A very difficult problem, like much more difficult than the problems that we deal with in aviation. And I just, it's just been remarkable to watch it getting solved almost in real time. And, you know, kind of being a participant in the process. Elon's got like two million beta testers out there driving around these things. Well, I think my son-in-law probably is one of those. He watched the past one until he retired. You know, but just looking at the outer land or the emergency landing, I know a lot of people that are making avionics have looked at that and tried to build it in. And I don't know why it hasn't gone any further than it has, because if you get into a bad situation, you could push a button and it would take you home or take you someplace and get you on the ground safely. That would be a tremendous benefit to general aviation. But they haven't been able to make it work or get it certified. I don't know what to hold that. Well, apparently it is certified now. I mean, in small airplanes. That's all I should say. Yeah, it's now certified in the Cirrus and stuff. It's just amazing. Oh, that is amazing, Deb, because I'm behind. I'm not keeping up with it. Yeah, of course, the problem is that the Cirrus is like a million two or something to buy one. So these airplanes have become very sophisticated, but they're not terribly affordable anymore, which is, I think, an issue we have. Well, at any rate, Jimmy, I've really enjoyed this. It's kind of like a trip down memory lane together, and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. This has been a lot of fun. It has been a lot of fun. and you need to come visit us so we can just sit up here. I built a different office since you were here before, so we can sit up here and move a lot of stuff. Yep, yep. Jimmy lives on a little ranch with an absolutely gorgeous house. I love visiting him. It's been too long. I think the last time was a couple of years ago. I was on my way back from Shell Research Center and stopped by, and we had a good time together. Yeah, we can go over a lot of the projects that I'm working on. Some of them I can't really, as you know, can't talk about because of the people that I'm working with on those programs. But we're having a great time. What can I say? At this age, you'd still be able to do what you love to do. Well, there'd be anything better. Well, I'm delighted to see you in good health and doing what you love to do. And thanks so much for spending this time. I think a lot of people will enjoy getting to know you, as I have over the years. you're a fascinating person Jimmy