Who really controls what you watch? (And why TV sackings are always messy...)

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I once had a meeting in the 90s with Harvey Weinstein. He said, are you implying that my directors have final say? He said, no, no, no, no. I edit these films. It's me, I do it.

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One, I'm glad Ian Katz has done this interview. Two, I'm glad Channel 4 haven't in any way tried to stop him doing so.

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He said, what was that meeting about? I said, he just fired you.

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And he looked at me and he said, how dare you in that Liverpool accent.

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Yeah, that wasn't a Liverpool accent, by the way.

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Hello and welcome to Insiders, a podcast all about the world of television with

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me, Peter Fincham and me, Jimmy Mulville.

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This is the podcast for people who love TV and who want to know a bit more about what goes on behind the scenes.

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You're dressed for a behind the scenes this morning. I see very is this is casual Wednesday, is it? Now?

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This is how I dress, Jim. So I dressed.

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This is how the cool people dress for work.

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We all dress like this now. I used to. God, if you go back a few years when I was at the BBC, we were still in suits and I

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remember, I remember in those days it

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was not that quite long ago but I think when I was there in the mid 2000s and there's a kind of history of how to dress here, isn't there? I think the ties had come off generally if you go back, let's say to the John Burt era, Armani suits, ties. Yeah, very much by my time the ties are coming off but I still, I had all these suits made for me, tailored suits. Yeah, they hang in the wardrobe today I look forward to funerals because I don't think I can wear mine in my suit.

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Well, it won't be long now, Peter.

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It's very, it's one of the very few times I've got a reason for taking a suit out of the wardrobe. They're basically just there for the moths to eat because we all, we all dress casual now, don't we?

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So if you pre deceased me, you'd like me to wear a tie at your funeral?

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Yes, if you predecease me, I'm delighted because I'm wearing one of my suits. I saw an interview with James Longman, who produces SNL uk, and he told her. He told a great story. He went. He had to go and meet Lorne Michaels, who I think is an old fashioned, you know, still wears well.

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He's in his 80s, so.

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And. And so he dressed a bit more smartly than he did. The first thing Lorne Michaels said was, I like you. You're wearing a crisp white shirt and a jacket. You don't see enough of that anymore. No trousers, I don't know. But like a newsreader in the old days. Hugh Edwards, very smart from the way.

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Let's not go. Let's not go down that road talking about dress. I was at the launch of Smoggy Queens, the comedy we made.

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Oh, I bet that was colourful in

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the Northeast, about a group of friends who are like to drag up and go out and have fun. It's a really funny comedy. Phil Dunning wrote it and stars in it. And everybody turned up and I was so underdressed. I was just wearing a jacket and a pair of trousers and a shirt. But there was a lot of color on show. It was a very, very colorful event.

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People in drag.

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I. I wasn't in drag.

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No, I've seen you in drag, Jim.

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That's true. And someone did.

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It's the look that suits you.

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Someone said to me, they kind of looked at me because, you know, I'm of a certain age, and they assumed that, you know, you haven't had the kind of wild times. But I said, oh, I've been in drag. And this young person said, really? When I said, well, you remember I was at the Edinburgh Festival and we were in a Footlights review.

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What part were you? Because I remember mainly Clive Anderson.

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Clive Anderson.

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Clive Anderson, dressed as a woman is immediately very funny dressed as a man.

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He's quite funny. It was a song and it was a parody of. Was it the Ronettes, leader of the pack?

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Yes, yes, quite right.

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So we were all dressed as leaders of the pack.

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You were a Ronette.

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We were dressed as women with the boobs and the hair and the beehive haircuts. And I was having a frank exchange of ideas with the lighting guy from Oxford. Because we shared this venue, didn't we?

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Oh, we did, yes.

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And I remember shouting at him and then seeing myself in the mirror dressed as a Ronette. It wasn't a good word.

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I thought there was no dignity in that.

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No, there was. I had very little dignity at all. So Ian Katz.

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Yes.

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Well, we should just say in his. Because we didn't give him full justice last time, because literally we were walking out the door when Owen said, oh, by the way, have you read that Ian Katz has just resigned from Channel 4? So we came back in the studio, we did a little bit about him to acknowledge his passing from Channel 4. But he's given this interview, hasn't he, in.

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He's given an interview in the Times. It's very good interview, actually. And he. He comes across well and he says he's going to go and let some. The grass grow under his feet or something. He's going to read a book under a tree. But all of this I take as kind of code for saying, I want a break. I've decided to go in my own time and in my own volition. And I remember when I left itv, there were people like the Times in the Garden, they all wanted to do a valedictory interview with and the ITV powers that we wouldn't let me.

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Why?

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Because. I'll tell you exactly why. Because this is the difference between a properly commercial organization like it and Channel four is that the minute the announcement's out there and they've said, who's going to be your success?

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It's all about the future.

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It's all about the future.

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You're just dead.

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You know, the waters have closed over you and they don't want to. They don't want to look back. And I was quite keen to do it because there's also a thing that if you leave a job or of your own volition and in your own

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timing, but you don't know what you're claiming you did.

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Claim I did. But you don't know what you're going to do next because you want to have a break. Whatever. I seem to remember, I think I'm planning a midlife crisis now. I want to see what the midlife crisis will consist of. The danger is that there's a sort of subtle implication that you've been pushed out, that you were pushed rather than jumped. And that may even suit the place he worked for before, because it makes them look macho and as if they've controlled events.

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Yes.

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Which is what they always want to look as if they've done. But of course, again, back in Channel 4, which is not a commercial organization in the true sense of the word, they're more relaxed about that. And I thought. One, I'm glad Ian Katz has done this interview. Two, I'm glad Channel 4 haven't in any way tried to stop him doing so. There's no harm at all in reflecting on what he's done over the last eight years. And it will not in any way kind of affect or impede his successors or what goes on going forward. It's true, of course, that the minute that you resign, people are talking about runners and riders going forward.

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Yeah.

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And I've already seen one of these lists and it's got some names on it. People you and I know. I'm guessing, and one or two people I don't know at all, but Letty and Katz have his kind of moment. Have. It has a moment in the.

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Yeah. He's not. He's not cold yet, is he? And they're just talking about who's gonna.

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Yes, exactly.

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Who's gonna come in. Who would have thought that Matt Britton, I mean.

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Yeah.

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Who's now taking over as DG at the BBC. No one ever heard of Matt Britton.

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No. And he'd had a career break. He'd left Google and had a bit of time, you know.

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Did he do an interview about his

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tending the roses or whatever? I don't know. But you make me think. Matt Britton, day one. I think it's next month. What will he wear?

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It works. A crisp white shirt.

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White shirt. The open. Open neck shirt and jacket look.

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Or I. I think he should go in a caftan. A caftan and ruffle the feathers. Or a mankini.

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Just one more thing on Ian Katz is it says he's stepping down in October after seeing out the delivery of the 2026 slate. Now, that's interesting because does that imply that he's got full commissioning power between now and October? Because again, there certainly was a time when the minute the announcement was out there, you immediately lost your power to commission.

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Yeah.

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Particularly if you were going somewhere else. That might create a conflict of interest. But anyway, the organization, whether it was the BBC or itv, couldn't have somebody who was leaving commissioning. I'll tell you a good reason. I've seen this happen. I've even done a bit of it myself. The danger is they spend all the money. The danger is they think they get demob happy. They get demob happy. They commission their friends, they do two series deals here and there where they wouldn't otherwise do them, because then by doing so, they're leaving their imprint on the channel for longer than they otherwise would.

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It's a bit like in government. Didn't one government that was leaving leave a note on the desk? There's no money left. Yeah, they spent.

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I think it was a Labor government when Tories came in in two after the Blair era, I think. Yeah. So what you don't want, if you're Ian's successor, is to turn up and your colleagues say, well, unfortunately, we've commissioned dramas for the next 18 months. We've commissioned this.

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Well, I mean, actually, we might get a bit of insight there, because we have one of our guests coming on soon is Charlie Perkins, who is the head of comedy of Channel 4. So maybe we should ask her that question. How is she finding it in there? Is it stasis or is it business as usual? It's a really good question to ask, actually, because I think most producers find this, don't they, that we find that when there's a change at the top, we get told, yeah, it's a great idea. We really like it. Just everything's on hold at the moment whilst so and so gets his feet hurt, her feet under the desk.

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And of course, that's bad news. Cause that's bad news for any broadcaster if you have a kind of interregnum where no commissioning gets done. Because particularly now that the world is so competitive, the danger is all those ideas go off to one of the streamers. And by the way, I think in that interview with him, there was mention of How To Get To Heaven From Belfast, which it sounds as if it's still. It's still a sore point with him.

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Oh, did he bring it up? What did he say?

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Well, I'm not sure whether he brought it up or the journalist brought it up. And I can't remember what he said, but. But, you know, just to remind our listeners who may not remember this, obviously it's your story. This. He commissioned and announced it.

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Yes.

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Then got the money and then you took it to Netflix.

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Yeah, he announced it. And I think that was probably, you know, our fault as well. Channel 4 said, we love Lisa McGee's writing. Obviously, Derry Girls is a huge hit for Channel four. And it's a real lesson that when you have a hit comedy, it just does so much good for the channel generally. Everyone talks about it, it gets awards, it's got a long tail, you know, it's still very much watched on both Netflix and All four. But he said, whatever Lisa wants to do next, we're in. So please, you know. So he reads the script of How To Get To Heaven From Belfast, which is brilliant, and says, we will put in our most amount of money per episode, which was a lot of money. It was a Seven figure sum, but sadly it was only about a third of the budget. And this is basically a very common story now for producers is they have a commission at a terrestrial broadcaster like Channel 4, BBC or ITV, but it's less than half of what they need to make the show. So unless you can find a co producing partner, which you could. When the streamers came to town a few years ago, they were much more laissez faire with.

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They didn't mind not having the UK rights.

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They didn't mind. But these days, if they're doing a show that is based in the uk, they realize that the UK and Ireland are probably gonna be the most. It's gonna be the most popular in that particular territory. So they wanna own it.

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So that's the case. Totally understandable. What are your other sources of finance? Essentially a distribution advance, which puts a lot of pressure on the distribution companies and a tax break. And that's kind. Or maybe you get a pre sale in one territory, you know, which means they come in as a kind of commissioning partner. But they become ever more complicated to put together these deals, don't they?

11:31

But do you find now that, for example, we're talking to a platform in Australia and this was a show that was originally written for America, which was then rewritten and set in Scotland. The writer is Scottish. And now we've reset it in Australia and we have a bite in Australia and we're looking for Australia.

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The bite is not gonna be 100% of the budget.

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No. But if we get an anchor broadcaster, you then can come back to the UK and say, oh, by the way, we just need a third of the budget. Are you in? It makes it more appealing to them. But that's what's happening now is we're doing much more of that kind of stuff, putting these things together. You know, we've got this show which is set in Seoul in South Korea and I'm trying to find a co producing partner in Seoul, which is great because it's something I've never done, traveling

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the world looking for anchor, anchor commissioners.

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I'm just floating around the world looking for money.

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Exactly.

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Basically with my begging bowl.

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When things sort themselves out in the Middle east, you never know.

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Listen, I think the Saudi version of Outnumbered is just begging to be made. All right, so this is going to be a special edition, Peter.

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Exactly. So this is. If you've sent in a question, you're thinking, when will they address the question? This is the episode.

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Well, it might be going to do.

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So we hope so anyway.

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Tell me, what's the, what's our first.

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Our first one is from Jeremy Roberts and he says this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why film treats the director as the primary creative force, which is. Whereas in television that mantle falls almost entirely to the writer, who not only gets the glory but sits at the top of the whole creative hierarchy. Is it rooted in history and convention or does it reflect something more fundamental about how the two mediums actually work? And where does that leave all the television directors quietly fuming in the edit suite? Oh, there's a lot going on there. I'm going to pick out a bit of this and say. I'm not sure you're entirely right. Yes, Jeremy, you, you say, you say whereas in television that mental. I. The primary creative force falls almost entirely to the writer. Well, sometimes, but not always. I mean maybe if you. Jeff Mercurio. But, but a lot of television writers would say they don't feel like that at all. I think you could reasonably say it's often a more producer driven business in the uk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But why would people talk about movies? Do they talk about it as the director's movie? But they very rarely do that with television?

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Well, because that I suppose organically, in the days which predate tv, the great film directors were auteurs, weren't they? Although even in those days the studio system was so powerful that directors were guns for hire as well. They turned out to be brilliant directors. But you know, in those days in Hollywood in the 30s, 40s and 50s, they were making films every four weeks. So it was. But I take his point and I

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think that is there is room in television for the occasional auteur. I used to make series with Stephen Polakoff, a brilliant writer director who was, you could call him that. Peter Kosminski is a sort of equivalent of that. Hugo Blick, do you know? Yeah, he only crops up every few

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years with something he began with Marion

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and Jeff written and directed himself and it's got OTA written, as it were, all over it. So it's not quite as simple as that. But I think this point is generally right, that in television the director is brought on. You know, in a long running television series you don't concern yourself with who's directed it as you might with a movie.

15:09

Well, you say that, but comedy for example, you do want to choose a director who knows where the funny is.

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Oh yeah, yeah.

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Cause I sat in edits where you sit there and you say, do we have his reaction to that? Oh And I thought it looked nice in the wide.

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Exactly. If you're working with a director in comedy who really loves the wide shot.

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Yeah.

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Because it visually so great, you know, you're in trouble.

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We once did a show which is a really good pilot which never in the end got made into a series. It was commissioned by David Lidimer to ITV and it was during the Blair years and it was about a prison written by Tony Sashay. It was really good. And it was about a new prison governor who's very Blair eyed. And he comes in and he wants the prison system to be not a them and us system, but a we system. And he's trying to sell this to.

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That's a funny idea.

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Alan Armstrong, a fantastic actor. He plays the chief warden who is not of that opinion.

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Okay.

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He thinks the prisoners are there to be oppressed.

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It occurs to me the chief warden might be right. Yes.

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So. Well, I'm not gonna get into that. Cause I've got a different view on it. But anyway, about social programming. Don't get me down that road, Peter.

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Right now I'm not going to.

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Okay.

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Even if I did, we'd edit it out so you can have a rant if you like. Believe me. I'll have a word with Owen. I won't make the edit.

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You see, I'm being stitched up by the bourgeoisie here on this. So we make the show and there's one scene where the fatal flaw of the chief warden is because this man he's dealing with the governor is university educated and very liberal. He feels compelled to use words he doesn't quite understand. So he embarks on sentences where he just gets his language mangled. And it's really, really funny. And he does it brilliantly. So I go into the edit and there's a director who's a bit younger than me. Not that much younger than me.

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Possible to be younger than you.

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And I watch this is a few years ago, this is like 20 years ago. And I watch it and I say, oh, okay. I said, I wonder, could we take more time with this scene? Can we have more pauses? Because the way they performed it was. It got more agonizing. Alan Armstrong got more agonizing as it went on and slowed down and slowed down and slowed down. It got funnier and funnier and funnier if you allowed it to play out. And she cut it down so it zoomed through, the scene went bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And it was over and done with. And she went, oh, I don't think that'll work, actually. I think we need to move it. We really need to move. I thought, Paul's a bit slow. So I said, look, can we just try it? So we tried it as it was written, as the writer had intended it, because Tony rang me and said, look, I think this scene's been ruined. And it was very funny. It was very funny.

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Once you liberated it, the director then conceived.

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No, you know what you said to me? Oh, yeah, I can see that. No, it's more of a generational thing, isn't it? You know, your generation.

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Oh, she's playing that card.

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And I felt like saying, listen, you know, spring chicken, love. But, you know, I didn't.

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I didn't say that again. You didn't say that in the edit.

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But the point I'm making is that

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at that moment, I get that the

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producer overrode the director.

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Exactly. Because the producer had the whip hand. But in movies, and this again goes back to Jeremy Roberts point, obviously, you get really powerful director. They literally have directors cut, and then they've got the whip hand. But I don't think that ever happens in television unless you're writing, directing and producing, which I think somebody like Hugo Blick does. So I don't think this is convention. To go back to the question, there may be an element of convention. I Completely honest, I think it's power structures. It's power structures. If you are, oh, I don't know, Downton Abbey. Exactly, then who are the really powerful people in Downton Abbey? Julian Fellows and Gareth Neem. Julian Fellows, writer and creator Gareth Neame runs Carnival. The production companies. The executive producer. Uber executive producer. They've got the power. So if they decide that they want to hire directors who shoot but don't edit, they will do that. And that happens. Not on all television drama. In other words, the director's job is done the minute that he calls rap on the shoot, and then the producers and whoever else take over in. In the edit, that's fine.

18:31

But there are exceptions. For example, when you say, famously, you were pitched the crown. Peter Morgan and Stephen Daldry were in the room.

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Yes.

19:40

So Stephen Daldry is not chopped liver.

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No, he's certainly. He's won an Oscar.

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So he's not gonna just lie down. He's gonna. Peter Morgan wants him to come in and elevate it.

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Yeah. And very successfully elevated and created, therefore, with Andy Harris, Peter Morgan and Stephen Daldry, to use a modern cliche, an undeniable group of people who definitely knew what they were doing. Of course, though the promise was never there that Stephen Daldry would direct every episode.

19:50

No, he set it up.

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He set it up. And actually, if you look at those early episodes of the Crown, they are absolutely brilliantly directed.

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The truth is that with the big streamers now, they will often say, can we get a proper filmmaker to make the pilot, to set the tone, to kind of set the expectations? And I would say that someday, even in film now, I would say it depends on, as you say, where the power lies. I once just to drop a real name from the past. I once had a meeting in the 90s with Harvey Weinstein.

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Okay, all right.

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He wanted to buy Hatrick.

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Okay. So, well, we all have our price.

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We were talking about, you know, TV and stuff and I mentioned something and it must have upset him. Cause he said, what are you implying? That my directors have final say? He said, no, no, no, no. I give two directors final say. Quentin Tarantino and Anthony Minghella. Everybody else, I edit the show, I edit these films. It's me, I do it. Now whether he was just being a

20:43

good guy, but that confirms what I'm saying, which is it sort of comes down to. Of power and power structures.

21:05

Yeah.

21:09

So in the case of Harvey Weinstein and those days, massively powerful. So if you were directing a film for him, unless you were one of those two people, slightly surprised about Anthony Mingala, but I mean, brilliant director, I'm not surprised about Quentin Tarantino. You're. You're in a saint, so you know, you're buying into Quentin Tarantino's unique approach and therefore he'll have directors cut and so on. But television doesn't really have a director's cut culture, does it? Well, look, Jeremy Roberts, thank you for your question. I hope we've given some sort of an answer to it. Let's move on to another one.

21:09

Okay.

21:40

From Andrew Nelson.

21:41

Right.

21:42

Modern commission process. Andrew says, I've heard you talk about the difference between Netflix commissioning and a channel controller's thoughts when it came to renewing long running series and the fact that a broadcaster might be more inclined to keep a series going as it's easier than commissioning something new for that slot. It made me wonder whether those kinds of decisions are solely made by the controller or whether the person in that role consults more widely. And if so, who do they discuss this with? Does the scheduler get involved? Do the money people have a say? It would be great to know how big decisions like this.

21:42

Well, that's fun for you, really.

22:15

Oh, it is a bit. And the answer, I think, is pretty clear. It is, Certainly is, from all my time on the commissioning side. Yes, of course, you consult. These are big decisions. You don't make them all on your own. And probably of the people, let's say it's a drama, so there's a drama commissioning department ahead of drama. A couple of other drama commissioners in that. You'll want them in the room. Absolutely. Because you want editorial reviews. Did this. Did this series work? You know, do we think it could. If there were things about it we weren't quite sure about, could they change in the second series and so on. But I would say the single most important person in that is the scheduler. And. And that is what leads you back to the point you're making in the question, Andrew Nelson, because the scheduler's got a schedule to fill. So the schedule, let's say you say. I remember very early on when I was at the BBC. Do you remember last, the Summer Wine?

22:16

I do.

23:10

It was. It was coming up for its 26th series or something.

23:11

Oh, it was.

23:14

It was already a venerable institution, but it didn't rate that well and. And it appealed, as you can imagine, to very old audience.

23:15

Did you kill it off?

23:23

No, I did. No, I didn't, but. But I remember the. The scheduler, I hadn't been there very long, came up and. And he looked at me and he said, a guy called Liam Keelan, who I'm sure you know, I sat next

23:24

to him at the Everton Liverpool game at the weekend. He's a big Evertonian.

23:34

There we are. And it wasn't a bad result for Everton, was it?

23:38

No. If you get big two one in the last minute, it's a great result.

23:42

I think I turned off when it was one all.

23:45

Thank you. Thank you for that. I just thought. You just triggered me by the way

23:46

Liam looked me in the eye and he said, I dare you.

23:51

Yeah.

23:55

In that Liverpool accent.

23:55

Yeah. That wasn't a Liverpool accent, by the way. That was probably.

23:57

It wasn't far off.

24:00

That was. That was Cardiff via Hyderabad. Dare you.

24:01

And he was basically, I dare you to cancel it. And I thought, I don't want to, you know, why be known as the man who's canceled after the Southern. Some of the wife. But ultimately, as I say, there's a schedule to fill and the easy thing is to say, we'll do one more.

24:07

Yeah.

24:22

Because then we haven't got to replace it. We're going to take a risk on anything. Might be in slow decline, but still people watch it and they will make a hell of a fuss if you cancel it. So. Okay, let's just do one more.

24:22

But do you not think things.

24:33

Whereas I don't think streamers think like that.

24:33

Exactly. That was what got.

24:35

Why would streamers think like that? They're much more ruthless.

24:36

They've got the data and they've got hard data. So as we know, there are three kinds of shows when you launch them. One is the breakout hit, which is great. And that's like catching lightning in a bottle. There's the flop. And two of the. They're very easy decisions. The flop, you don't, you don't recommission the hit, you recommission immediately. But then I think in the middle. A lot of those shows are in

24:39

the middle where you're earning your salary. That's where you've actually got to make broadcast and discretion. Take the. Absolutely. But broadcast. The discretion in linear broadcasters, if you like, in the old days was very much discretion. There wasn't. I mean there were ratings and you could look at the reviews to see what they said in the Guardian of the Independent. But ultimately it was a, a judgment. You did not have access to the sort of data that Netflix or it's also their data will have.

25:01

But their data on streamers is quite predictive. So they'll say, you know, based on what this show is getting now, we don't think if we brought it back for a second season, it would be soft, it wouldn't increase, it would decrease. And they've got now 10, I don't know, 10, 15 years worth of data.

25:31

And it makes it much harder for you as a producer to argue, to fight your corner because if you're fighting your corner against this anonymous stuff called data, which they're very protective of and they don't share with you, you know, all the arguments were used in the old days.

25:48

There's no emotion anymore, there's no.

26:03

Yeah, well, I think, I mean, I think it's. That's a bit black and white.

26:05

Well, I think they can't.

26:08

But definitely there's been a shift in that direction.

26:09

Yeah, but I do think then that what we're looking at is a world in which there'll be certainly on the streamers, I think the long running series will be become few and far between. I think you're going to get two series of this or maybe a series of that, maybe three if you look at certainly on Netflix. I'm not so familiar with Amazon, in fact, nobody is. But you know, the truth is that you are Seeing shows being canceled after a couple of series. Cause they think they've done it. And the people after one.

26:11

Yeah.

26:40

Or even after one. So, you know, it's just interesting to see that. That I think that a linear broadcaster will sometimes employ not just their head, but their heart and think, actually there's something in this show I want to kind of investigate.

26:40

And there are famous examples of shows, Fire and Black Blackadder, because it changed radically between series one.

26:53

That's an extraordinary story.

27:00

Half the budget, put it in a studio, whoosh.

27:02

Would that happen nowadays?

27:04

There are other shows that were like Slow Burns, but Slow Burn required a broadcast who kept faith. And I'm not sure there's a slow burn in the streaming world.

27:05

Well, I think Apple is the exception. I think the way they commission their shows is they. I don't think they.

27:16

That's true. I mean, we're talking about slow horses here, aren't we?

27:23

I don't think that drives with others. I think Slow Horses. I think there's a show called I Bang on about called Drops of God that no one watches. I watched it too, but they commissioned it. It's a classy show.

27:25

Yeah, it's very classy, actually. It's an unusual show.

27:36

And the morning show, which is now a hit for them. I mean, I watched the first episode of that years ago and I didn't go back to it. And I was talking to David Crane, who wrote Friends, and he said, are you watching the morning show? I said, well, I didn't really get into it.

27:39

He said, I find that a busman's holiday.

27:53

He said, you've got to watch the first three episodes. Yeah, and I watched the first and I really got it. And now I've just seen the fifth series. It just happened, and it's a great show. You'd like it. I know, but it's about fitless TV people, Peter.

27:55

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29:17

we got time for one more question.

30:11

It's a question from Andy Lockwood and it's an interesting question. My question for you chaps, he says, concerns how stars are frequently handled during terminations. Why do high profile sackings happen with so little notice? Consideration, care or direct communication? It seems that front of camera talent deserves better treatment than finding out their fate through the press. So to whom is he referring, do you think?

30:13

Almost everybody who's ever, ever been sacked. The thing is, of course, the people who are making these changes that they see as necessary in order to keep their schedules fresh or to revise, you know, to give a program a fresh look or whatever, try to do it with consideration, care, try to communicate it correctly, etc. Etc. But the truth of the matter is the person who is being let go will almost never see it that way. So that's why, you know, the way it looks to, to, to Andy Lockwood is that, you know, broadcasters are just callous and tactless and careless and so on. But I mean, you know, having, you know, been in this position for many years, believe me, they're not. They know it's a big deal. But at the same time, if you never made a change on screen like in a long running program, then like

30:43

David Attenborough, you mean. That's very, I've been very unsuccessful, hasn't it? Keeping him on that, then God Almighty.

31:39

People who, then people who presented programs.

31:44

Yes.

31:48

Would literally be there forever because they're not going to leave and slowly the screen would fill up with gray hair, etc. Etc. So, you know, it's a tricky issue. I'm glad I'm no longer in the position.

31:49

We're all glad you're no longer in that position. But the truth is that aren't there different kinds of sackings? I mean, you've got this, you've got the Hugh Edwards kind of.

32:02

That's different, that doesn't. And that doesn't need an awful lot of consideration.

32:10

Then you've got the refreshing, I'm talking

32:13

about the refreshing approach.

32:15

So I'm talking replacing Michael Aspel with.

32:16

Well, Michael Aspel replaced with Fiona Bruce, a very good example because, mainly because Michael Aspel was such a gentleman. He saw it coming. He didn't make it difficult for me with grace. He was, did it with grace. He was utterly charming, you know, but I can think of another one and I, I really don't want to kind of no name names another long running program that have been presented by the same person since the very beginning for over 20 years.

32:18

Right.

32:43

But it, it was feeling a bit old fashioned and needed a refresh and that was painful. And he didn't like it. No, he didn't like it and he blamed me personally. And, but by the way, and this is something to, to think about if you're, if you're going to apply to be in cat's successor, do not think you can do one of those jobs and win universal popularity with everybody. No, of course you can't because it's your job to make changes as you see fit or as you and your colleagues see fit to, to keep schedules fresh and to keep programs moving forward. I went to theater last night. I was talking to somebody who used to work on the south bank show, right. And she confirmed that, that you, you know, Melvin Bragg, a brilliant broadcast, incredibly distinguished career, is still, as it were, sticking pins into a wax doll of

32:43

me because of the, me actually because

33:32

of the demise of the South Bank show at ITV.

33:36

The South Bank Show.

33:39

15 6. Not a bad impression.

33:40

He's like he was in the room there for a minute.

33:42

It's like beginning in my time, which he doesn't do that anymore either.

33:45

No, but he's, he's now she's a

33:49

fine but distinguished career he's had, but he, I think it's fair to say he, he didn't take it well when it came to an end at ITV and he slightly personalized it at me, which I, you know, no quarrel, I was doing the job.

33:52

So I think it's the way you laughed all the way through. I think that was, I think he thought that was particularly insensitive.

34:08

Didn't know such thing. If I had been laughing, he wouldn't have noticed because he was shouting so loud. All right, so have we answered? I don't know whether we're answering any of these questions but Andy, hopefully that's given you an insight.

34:15

It's a really good question, Andy, and

34:28

it's a good question. But don't for a minute think that people try to do it badly. They try to do it well, of course, but the people to whom it's done will very rarely give them any credit for that.

34:29

I do think that when you are letting go of somebody from a job they've been doing for a while on screen, I think the correct way is to do it. Like you said, you know, you have a drink with Michael Aspel, you explain the context.

34:38

I think in the moment when, when the producers feel this podcast needs a bit of refreshing. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll do it personally to you.

34:50

Thank you. Stab me in the front, Peter. Stab me in the front. But I remember once we took Clive Anderson's show Clive Anderson Talks back from Channel 4 to the BBC. Alan Yentaub.

34:58

Oh, I remember this, yes.

35:11

Brought Clive to the BBC, to BBC One and we, this felt like a promotion. Well, Clive was obviously thought great, you know, I'm on BBC1.

35:12

Yeah, exactly.

35:20

And I thought it was a perilous move because on Channel 4 he was in the top five shows every week

35:21

and able to be kind of impeach and irreverent. Exactly. Be a sort of anti chat show rather than a chat show.

35:27

Yes, girls on BBC one. He was a new controller had come in. He shall remain nameless but his surname is that of a well known fish.

35:34

Peter Halibut. That's who you're talking about.

35:42

No, and it wasn't Sam Codd either.

35:44

How many guesses have I got?

35:50

You got one more guess. It was Peter Salmon. He lasted a couple of years before he was smoked. Anyway, can we get off the fish jokes, please? This is, I'm trying to elevate this to a story that is, has some meaning for the people listening to.

35:51

Anyway, so ship sailed a long time ago.

36:09

We go in for the meeting and I can tell already that it's one of those meetings because we get slathered with praise, you know. Oh, guys, great to see you.

36:12

So you're reading the room because you've been in many meetings like this.

36:22

So I was thinking, all right, where's this guy going with this? And he says, clive, look, I just want to refresh the channel a bit and I think what you've done brilliantly. These shows, we like to change, you know how you are on the channel. Okay, fine. So he says, I want to give the talk show a break for a while and why don't we think of a show which is a format show where you sum up the week on TV for the BB Swan audience. Oh, okay. So it's a half hour show going out at 10:30 at night, not a talk show going.

36:25

It could sound a little bit like have I got news for you? Which you, well already make.

37:00

It's more of a pop culture thing. Okay, Pop culture and Clive and using clips of what's been on telly that week. So on the way back in the car, we were going the A40 and Clive said, what was that meeting about? What was that about? I said, he just fired you. I mean, he's giving you. It's almost like being called into the Foreign Office. It was the way the BBC did it in those days. They didn't fire you, they kind of just let you bleed to death in a show that of no consequence and I'm guessing is a miserable way to fight.

37:03

And I'm guessing Clive will come away from that once he's sort of, you know, worked out the code or you've worked it out for him. Not feeling overly warm towards Peter Salmon and, and I would understand why.

37:35

Me neither.

37:47

But having all having also, as it were, being the Peter Salmon and these things, I'm sure he thought that was quite a good way to do it. Whether it was or not, you can judge and you were there. I wasn't. But, but as I say, I don't think many people in television relish doing this sort of thing.

37:48

Listen, these questions have been really good.

38:08

So please, please send in questions.

38:10

Just send your questions in and we'll do our best to give them the once over. Okay, Peter, I think that's all from us this week.

38:12

Thanks very much for listening.

38:18

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38:19

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38:25

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38:29

Goodbye.

38:40

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38:48