E73 • Facing the Future Without Looking Away • CHARLIE TYRELL, co-dir. of ‘The AI Doc: Or How I Became an Apocaloptimist’ Now in Theaters from Focus Features

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Hello, everyone, thanks for joining us online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online online now in theaters from focused features, turns an overwhelming, abstract subject into something personal by grounding it in fatherhood. Instead of approaching AI through pure information or fear, the film frames it through the lens of bringing a child into the world, making the stakes immediate, emotional, and human. Co-directed by Daniel Rohrer, Academy Award-winning director of Nalvani, and produced by Daniel Kwan, Academy Award-winning director of everything, everywhere, all at once, the filmmaking process was massive and chaotic. Built from dozens of interviews, extensive transcripts, and layered animation, the challenge was finding clarity inside that volume while keeping the film engaging and cinematic, reflecting a lineage of documentaries that blend personal narrative with larger ideas. Charlie's past inspirations include Stories We Tell by Sarah Polly and recent films Weapons and 28 Years Later. At its core, it's about urgency. AI is already here, already shaping everything, and the real question is, who chooses to engage with it? I appreciate you. No problem. Thank you, Marcus. When did you make the move? I've been here for 14 years, and I was in New Orleans for two years before this, and then I was in New York. I was following the tax incentive around doing lighting for movies. So I was in Wilmington. Then before that, I was in my little ass town, Kenson. Okay. So yeah, been here for 14. Nice. It's good. It's good enough. Where are you at, by the way? Are you still in Toronto? I'm in Toronto, yeah. I looked you up. I listened a little bit to the No Films School podcast you did, and I heard your answer. Oh yeah, I haven't listened to that, but I enjoyed that one. It's good. I love No Films School. I've been doing these tandem articles with interviews and then attached to an article for them based on a certain kind of topic. So I love them. No Films School is so good. I don't know. Their volume is crazy, the amount of stuff they put out. It's crazy. I think that was the first ever podcast I did was 2018 with them. Yeah, so it was a warm environment. How are you doing? Are you busy right now? Are you shell shocked? I mean, the most? Yeah. I mean, listen, I came from Indie Shorts and whatnot before this. So as far as like christening into first feature, this is pretty wild and kind of not only is it a first feature, but it's a first feature with focus, with the studio, with a whole lot of Oscar winners. And then me and... It's crazy. Yes. It's a team. It's a big hefty team. You have the Daniels. You have Daniel... How do you say Daniels last name? The co-director? Rower. Yeah, or roar. He did Navani. He did that. And the Daniels, of course, everything, everywhere, all at once. Well, was it just Daniel Kwan or was it the both the Daniels? Just Kwan on this one, but also his producer, Jonathan Wan, was on it as well. Okay, got you. And fun fact, I was at that Swiss Army Man Sundance premiere screening back in 2016. It was crazy. Yeah, well, we were... My first Sundance experience. He was telling me about that experience and... He did? Yeah. I loved that film so much. It was great. No, it was great. Yeah. It was great. I mean, you are a Canadian film director. You... Okay, you're most noted for your short doc. I'm reading this off the internet. Short documentary film My Dead Dad's Pornotapes, which won the Canadian Screen Award for Best Short Doc at the 7th Canadian Screen Awards. Is it about what it sounds like? It's about my dead dad's pornotapes. I mean, my dad died in 2008 and I was in the middle of my second year of film school at university. He actually died well on holiday break, basically. So I actually just spoke at my university yesterday and it was kind of crazy to just like, remember that, that I went home after break started, he passed away and then went back to school and didn't tell anyone that he had died while I was away. It was kind of... I don't know if I could go back in time and talk to me. I don't know if I would recommend doing that, but I remember at the time feeling like it was nice to have a space that everyone didn't know this thing about me and get all kid-gloved by it and kind of that whole... Just kind of have a little bit of a space where it didn't have to be a thing that people knew about. And yeah, like I said, in the long run, I don't know if that was the smart move to do, probably not. But yeah, it was... Can I say something real quick just so you know? Just so you know, my mom passed in 2005 and I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, where it's just like... I just want... And people were there for me, but... Yeah, let's just be super normal and like, pretend... Like a lot of me to pretend it didn't happen, which like I said, I don't know if that did damage or not, probably. But the film was partly a result of that because I had these feelings, I had these thoughts I'd been churning over and really thinking about and gaining the perspective that I could in the grieving process. And after kind of getting through that, I decided I wanted to make a film about it. But it was also born from... My mom lives an hour away, so going home on occasion and oftentimes as someone who has a deceased parent also, you know, like there are these things that belong to them that start to materialize. And maybe those things are going to donation or going to the trash and you kind of become a person who's like, oh no, that belonged to them, so that's important, so I want to keep it. So I kind of kept doing that with different things, you know, some tools, some clothing, some other stuff that would maybe be considered junk otherwise. And then one day she found his dirty movies and I stopped her from throwing those out. And it was when that happened, I kind of was able to take a step back. And look at this curation process I was doing and then looking at all of his objects and going like, can I tell who he is through these objects? And after that, I was just kind of step by step and talking with collaborators and people I trust that I work with to kind of pose the question, is there a film here? And they were supportive and we kind of, you know, put pen to paper and then put, you know, or image to picture or image to camera, sorry. Wow. Yeah, so that's been the film that, and quite happily so, it's become the film that I'm maybe up until who knows what happens with the AI doc, but since that film came out, it's been the film that I've been most kind of known for and most, and it's a piece that I'm very grateful for because I got to introduce, you know, a lot of people, a lot of strangers to my dad and to my family and I've had a lot of people just email me out of the blue to talk about their stories with loss and sometimes it's objects they had, sometimes it's people who have had difficult relationships with their parents or fathers. And it seems like for some people, that film has helped in some small ways and maybe in some larger ways and that's the great thing about making stuff is you don't know what happens once it goes out because I made that film for me, right? Like that was me exercising some demons and it's been really cool to see what can happen with it. I'm not talking about success or popularity, I'm talking about that kind of connection that film allows for sometimes. I mean, my first doc was about my hometown, basketball in my hometown, but I bring it up because it was so important to me, I would die for it and so I put so much more into it than I ever would and my editor, filmmaker named Brian Simpson, who made a doc of his own called Creating Things about his dad who passed away. He premiered at Doc NYC two or three years ago, but yeah, I mean, it's a short doc, very personal piece. But yeah, I mean, I hear you as far as man. Sarah Paulie's stories itself was a big one for me because it was the first time I had seen a personal doc that didn't feel like overly self-indulgent. It felt like sharing a story for the sake of connection rather than the sake of spectacle. Like look at this crazy family, look at what happened. So like look at the abuse of trust and the abuse of relationship. It was a story that was just kind of laid it out and went like a lot of people have probably had a similar kind of experience in. And which Sarah Paulie film was that? Stories We Tell. Hmm. OK. Yeah, you haven't seen it. I highly recommend it. No. OK. Nice. I got it right here. This is my list is crazy growing crazy. So and I have that's a good problem. But I got your website pulled up here. My dad, my dead dad's pornotaves. And I mean, even though you weren't doing it for all the accolades, you got some. Southland, Grand Jury Prize, Best Doc, Short, Hot Docs, Rebecca. We were Oscar shortlisted. Truth be told, it was a film that I was fully prepared to. If anyone in my family, that's my mom, my brother, my sister or my dad's two brothers, my two uncles, if anyone of them had any issue with that film, I was prepared to just fully lock it away forever. And, you know, no one did. So I guess what I'm saying is that film was maybe millimeters away from never seeing the light of day. Thank you for sharing that. Appreciate it. Let me ask you this. How has it been as you've gotten older? Well, I mean, so now I've stepped into fatherhood. Which you certainly look at your kid considering what, what the absence of a grandparent or me having a dad to guide through parenting would maybe allow you to do differently with the experience. So there's, there's that. But honestly, Marcus, like one of the, I want to say the saddest or the worst thing, because obviously the fact that he's dead is the worst thing. But the, the fragility of memory and how kind of as more and more years go on, like I feel like there's a finite amount of memories and I, I don't know which ones are just disappearing forever. Like as time goes on. So certain things like I'm sure you have with your mom, um, feeling the presence of someone that, that kind of tone of their voice, like with a parent's voice, like you feel it inside of you. You don't just hear it. And I'm wondering like, are those things dissolving kind of actively around me? Um, so there's wrestling with that. And I can remember the time when, you know, in the years after his passing that I definitely like a hundred percent thought about him every single day. And I'm like, I don't know if I do. I mean, yeah, playing the lens of fatherhood was, um, so, a thing about me as a filmmaker, especially as a documentarian is I'm not going to be able to contribute to a topic unless I feel like there's something in me, in my lived experience, in my kind of perspective that is going to suit the film. Um, and with a topic like AI, yes, of course I had concerns, um, about what was happening in the world. But when we early on made the choice to put it through the lens of fatherhood, it just allowed me to kind of double down on my, my own personal sensibilities and kind of, um, kind of how much I was able to care about the story, you know, and in a totally kind of shallow way, like you can care about more about something, if you feel like you have something to offer from, from a deeper place. Totally. And putting it in the lens of fatherhood was, was, uh, the right choice for this film for me as a filmmaker, at least. This episode is brought to you by B script, mobile filmmaking gear I actually use when shooting in the field. If you're filming on your phone and need something solid, modular and built for real productions, B scripts, rigs, lenses and accessories are designed to hold up without slowing you down. B script gear has been used on films, including 28 years later, left-handed girl, all the shot on iPhone, Apple commercials and many more. If you're ready to level up your mobile workflow, visit B script.com and use coupon code past present feature for 10% off B script. Keep your footprint small. Keep the images powerful. B script.com. Can we talk about that moment where you guys, uh, I was at a discovery. Did you always know it? When did that fatherhood? It was coming to play. So I was kind of hanging with Daniel, Daniel Rower and, uh, Daniel Kwan materialized, reach out to Rower said, I want to make an AI documentary, but I'm not a documentary film director. And again, for the record, Daniel Kwan can definitely direct a documentary, but at the time he reached out to Rower and Rower said, well, I'd love to have a co-director for something like this. You should meet Charlie. I'd actually met Kwan for a minute back in 2015 when he was at South by with the turn down for what video it all organized into us kind of meeting up, uh, at the Daniel's office the following week. And when we were there, I believe it was Jonathan one who first presented the idea of like, when we're talking about like, what kind of angle to approach the story for, from credit goes to Jonathan one who said, like, well, you two are about to become fathers for the first time. Cause Daniel and my kid are born like in the same week. Um, so maybe there's something there. Would you guys consider putting yourself into the film, into the story? And Daniel kind of said yes on the spot. I want to say he like considered it, but you more or less said yes there. And then John asks if I want to as well. And I just, I gave the coldest no that you could ever give to someone that you just met, but honestly, it was, it was partly because I'd already done an autobiographical film and you know, it wasn't, I didn't want to do that again, but I just was maybe a bit more reserved than Daniel about, you know, participating in the film at that level. And two, it just helped confusing for the audience for there to be two directors that are two dads with two different babies. So it was just cleaner to just be Daniel. And, and I was happy to be off camera. And, um, poor Daniel, um, because he's the one who, you know, there are challenges with putting himself in the story for sure, um, that don't reveal themselves until they pop up. But, uh, he, he took the, he took the bullet for me on this one in that sense. I have a few questions around that, um, as far as were you, did you ever find yourself directing the director directing him? What did your involvement as the, yeah, I mean, our roles as co-directors on this film, like constantly involved, there was no set rules of who was doing what and when. Um, but in terms of Daniel as a director and a protagonist in the film, a lot of, I feel like my role there really, um, came up in working with him to give him an objective viewpoint on his life and himself as a character. Like, you know, things that he maybe thought weren't as interesting. I could be like, no, this actually is compelling or things that he thought were compelling. I could say like, actually it's not really that relatable. And, you know, being able to be a guy outside of him and see him. Cause he's in it. He's just so inside it. Exactly. And then also just honestly, um, just making sure that, um, cause it was a big team and there was a lot of media, a lot of raw material from Daniel to work from. And, uh, his recorded conversations with his wife and with his parents, his archival, his notebooks. So just really making sure that we weren't taking the access to that for granted, like one thing was, um, in the film, there's this scene where he's having this kind of panic attack conversation with his parents where he reaches out to them and just say how worried he is around two thirds in kind of, right? Exactly. And yeah, man. Yeah. I had heard that recording. Don't put too much spice on the chicken. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's, it's all just like, so, uh, that's how real people talk, you know, I don't know a better way to describe it other than it was just, uh, they're them being their authentic self. It was so layered. I want, I, and I got to say it was so layered, especially in that moment. It's a good, a good example because it was like so emotional. It was so still yet to like unpack this movie. I was feeling it. I was feeling it. You know, it's cause it's not just about, of course it's not just about the information. It's like, what's the, what's the emotional pull and, and like me being a dad also, uh, him talking to his parents and him freaking out, him having that anxiety attack and the push in on the shot, the visual of the, of the set where I mean, it was all working real nice. Yeah. And, and, and thank you. Um, yeah, our roles as co-director, like that, that conversation, I think happened on October, 2023 and I heard it and I knew very early on that this is something that's probably going to have a spot in the film, but I kind of wanted to keep a little quiet about it because I didn't want us to just decide that this was going to be in the film and then we're forcing ourselves to use it without giving Daniel kind of the ability to really kind of, cause I know conversations like that with your parents, they happen and then maybe you process them months later. So I wanted to make sure that we didn't make any assumptions that was ours for the, the taking and, um, in, in terms of the, the visual execution of it or, or, or I guess I'll start with the story execution of it, which was knowing that this film was going to be Daniel in a place of kind of anxiety and existentialism. Like all those emotions need somewhere to go. They need somewhere to vent. So for me in my life, I call my mom all the time when I'm kind of flipping out and same with my dad. Yeah. It was okay. What about that Duke laws? How you doing? It's been four days. Yeah. And sometimes you talk about like what's really bugging and concerning. And sometimes you just talk to say other stuff and it's, it's, it's a blanket. Right. So yeah. And I knew that if we were going to be showing Daniel as a character in that kind of light, that it was going to need to have go somewhere cause if, if, cause you're handing that kind of insati off to the audience otherwise, and then you're just leaving with it. And then there's not much that you can do with that other than just feel really lousy. So my hope is that for many people that scene does feel like a little bit, even though it doesn't really have the conclusion that the film has, I, my hope is that it does at least feel a little bit cathartic in that moment. There's a weave that you guys do, I think so well with this movie where it's like, oh shit, but it's like, okay. Oh shit. Okay. Yeah. You know, what is it? What are you saying? The film promise versus. Oh, promise versus peril, which is like, that's my, that was my biggest personal take away where it's like when somebody's like, how was it? I'm like, I'm worried still, but I'll see how I'm a little more hopeful than I was because I wasn't thinking about the advancements and like, you know, technology, hopefully, you know, and, and, and all sorts of ways. I mean, that was a couple of years and still because the technology is here and not going anywhere. Yeah. Well, I guess the other question is like, what are the top five companies or whatever going, I mean, they are carrying the weight of it right in a way where like it's up to them to kind of steered in a way and it's up to us as your film says to write the collective. What do you call it? The collective, what would you say? I don't know. This is a, you gotta be careful with this warning because it's such a big I know, I know it's all the, all the great wording like, and with everything involved for this, is, is picking the right phrase, which is, you know, kind of impossible sometimes. Well, and then it also kept evolving. They're, they're kept being different things that we found out where it was the right fit, like for example, Daniel's illustrations and notebooks gave us a visual launch point into the film, um, you know, with just those drawings as they are scans, but then also his art studio and putting it all in that world and that like a lot of us make the magical computer box puppet and all that stuff. And just making everything seem, seem like it came from his brain and the purgatory he was in while making this film, um, just kind of gave us some nice shaping to all of it, I think. I mean, as a filmmaker, I started getting anxiety just thinking about how much, how many, there's like a cut every microsecond in this movie. And there's just so much work. I can see all the work in this movie as I'm watching it. And I enjoyed it and I tried to cut that part of my brain off, but like, man, I was like, whoo, the post, I guess. Yeah. And we had two, two lovely editors, um, and a story producer, Joseph Bebe and, you know, Laurie and Anissa as well, who were the assists. Um, and then just a whole collective of people going through, I can't remember the stats, but it's over 40 interviews and it's like 3,500 pages of transcripts. And then a lot of background interviews and other stuff like that. And yeah, we knew that we wanted to kind of have this chorus of voices thing going on where to talk about this topic is to bring in a lot of voices. And, um, yeah, we had to kind of piece them all together to in order to tell the story and to most importantly, tell the story from the many different viewpoints that are within this story. It's, it's, it's so fractal, this, this topic that. Yeah. But it feels fluid though when you're watching it, which is, which is impressive. I hope so. There's just so many layers of this movie as far as like the, you have the, uh, you have the, the interviews, you have the, the, uh, Daniel's cutaways. You have the, uh, the illustrations. I mean, it's news archival and whatnot, the, like more traditional archival than the different perspectives of story. Yeah. There's so a lot packed in there. Anxiety mountain. Yeah. That, um, that was fun. That was very fun visually, but like, how did that, when you guys have an idea, like how, tell me about the origin of like the anxiety mountain. Yeah. I mean, like, how did you get to the point of we're going to make a mountain here? Was that stop motion? Anxiety mountain stardew is actually called, I think maybe it had different name, but, um, I'll also say that, uh, anxiety mountain still exists. I think it's about five feet tall. It's in a shed north of Toronto somewhere. So if anyone wants it, uh, please come take it. Um, do an auction. It was kind of knowing that we were going to be in this point in the film where we've been in Daniel's studio so much, we've been like through his notebook so much that we want everything to start kind of messing on top of itself. Um, that's why in that parent convoy, his studio is actually there, but it's completely kind of scrambled and broken apart because so many things about his life have really broken apart by that point. Um, so anxiety mountain was an embodiment of that, where it's just like, it's like it has to be made with all the debris from what he's been dragging along with him to make this movie. So there's notebooks, it's artwork and then another junk and then throw a couple little model frames and model trains, model train figures into there. One we had to, we looked for a long time to find the one that looked closest to Daniel and, um, throw it in there. You know, so there's just all to make a big mess of it all. Damn. Oh, how long, how long did you guys work on this movie? I mean, uh, you're shooting and editing at the same time. I'm sure. Yeah. So shooting, editing and animating at the same time. Um, when I came on to this is, uh, let's call it September 2023, there was kind of a rush to try and get it out before the, um, 2024 election. So we wanted to make it in about eight months. Oh, wow. And getting into this topic and getting into kind of the pace at which we could make this film, playing kind of the film talk back to us and say what it needed and letting us learn more about the subject and this, we, we bit off more than we can chew on story short. So we needed more time and we went through it and it was about two and a half years before it was finally complete, which for most, not that much, that's not that long. That's not that unusual, but for this film, we kind of went in thinking he was going to be a very quick thing and it wasn't. It's one of the most important documentaries I feel like I've watched. Oh, wow. I feel like there's a general reaction to AI and the shift that we are all facing as a species, as it becomes more and more adopted where it's just like, tell me the one thing I need to know about it so that I don't have to hear about it again, but that is not the reality of this technology. It's going to be ingrained in so many aspects of our daily lives, if not everything, into one degree or not. Like it's more like plastic or it's more like social media or it's more like, I don't know, I'll take a step back from plastic and go to like, it's more like oil. Like it's, it's, it's, it's an everything that we touch almost now. And that is because it's still the early days and because we've had kind of all these missteps with the other technologies that we've welcomed in the past, like fossil fuels, like social media, like the internet even. If we could go back in time and try and impact, like enforce some kind of change, even just slight improvements, we would. And the further you get into it, the harder it gets to do that. So because it's such early days now is the time to try and steer this technology into, into a course that is more beneficial to more people rather than beneficial to, you know, just something like the tech companies and the billionaires on this planet. Like it's something that should think more about the individuals are using it rather than the people that are making it. Maybe the scariest part to me is the, the AI working around the prompt, working around us, you know, and I'm surprised you guys didn't use a B roll of a howl, you know, from space agency. Cause Kubrick nailed it, didn't he? As far as the end of space Odyssey, with the, with the, with the, yeah, I mean, our, and we have our, we see Clark there in the film, right? He was definitely thinking, thinking down the line, but it's learned everything it knows how to do. One of our bits of, uh, archive on the film, um, Jeff Hinton says anything it knows that learned from us. So we know how to be deceptive. We know how to be manipulative. We know all these tricks and how to interact with one another to kind of get things or get responses or get reactions. I, I did a interview the other day and the interviewer actually said that she asked a chat bot to ask what question it would want to ask me. And the question I'm paraphrasing, but the question was more or less like, they made this film for an audience and they have thoughts about their audience and considerations of their audiences, but did they ever consider how an AI would feel about this film? Like what, what the AI's thoughts and feelings would be about it. So yeah, on one hand that's like, whoa, that's crazy. But on the other hand, is this thing just manipulating me into like, wow, what a crazy answer that is. How, how sentient does that sound? Um, because it knows how to string together the right series of words. So, so I'm like, is this something that it actually thinks and actually believes because does it actually think and actually believe? Or is that a more provoking thought provoking question to ask? Um, you know, we don't know yet. Yeah. Uh, probably, you know, we were already so. Um, and right now in this landscape, like, I think everyone just wants a break. Um, And but also just to pull back to just like the fact that it's so nice to see a great documentary on the big screen. Uh, and you guys are theaters across North America, right? And how many I do you, do you know how many or what is that looking like here? It's over 750 and I'm not sure how long we're on those screens for. Okay. A week or two or three, maybe you don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think all depends. Uh, that stuff's above my pay grade, Marcus. Same, same. Um, well, yeah, it's good stuff. The how in so focused features, uh, congrats on that. It's really great. Uh, how, how has that been so far? It's been awesome. And I was actually just talking about this with someone the other day where, uh, indie filmmaker that I know was asking about the studio experience, you know, what's that like? What was it like to get? Cause studios are infamous for, you know, the kind of archetype is that they come in with a bunch of notes and change into something that it's not. And, you know, and focus just didn't. Um, they were honestly just kind of so thoroughly and consistently supportive. And, um, like when they first came on, we weren't sure if it was going to go in theaters. Uh, I don't know if they were sure it was going to go in theaters, but they, they've evolved with the project and with us. And as the goals have changed, they've moved with them and with us and had suggestions and had support. Like, um, you know, what, what, what a crazy thing for me to have that as my first studio experience with just, and, and you know, it's been really nice. Um, you know, so I have no complaints and it's been really cool to like get some flowers though, sometimes, you know? Yeah. To get to that, to get to that place where you are working on a feature with the studio, with the theatrical release, and it's not like, you know, you grow up hearing about these infamous battles with studios and how that's, that's the hard part and it has just been, it's been a very light touch. So, um, I'm great. I'm projecting a bit, but I think they see the kind of importance of this story. And as creatives themselves, they understand that there's this shift coming and shift coming especially to the world of artists and filmmakers and film production and everyone wants it, rightfully so, and on this conversation and to participate in it. We need it. But also just the intersection of a great filmmaking with, um, very, you know, important information, you know, like it's, it's just nice and for it to get out there, you know, for it to be talked about. You guys are making the rounds. It looks like too. I mean, the conversations being had, you know, and, and I'm, I'm grateful for, uh, Daniel Kwan and, and, um, you know, to me too, push this too, right? To into, into the conversation, to the, you know, cause. It's like whenever the CEOs show up on your, in your film, I was like, oh, shit. Um, can we talk about that for a minute? What was that? Were you, you were there? I wasn't physically there. Danny, those, those interviews were all Daniel. I think I was watching them on a zoom feed from the same room I'm sitting in. Okay. Um, you know, the energy was definitely different than a lot of the other subjects. That might all just come down to at that level. There's definitely, um, a certain degree of PR training that comes into place. Like the really being selective and thoughtful. Like when sometimes when people, when like almost, I don't want to make any kind of comparisons here and appropriately, but when people are on trial or being investigative, you're really selective with your words because there's this on the record feeling and you don't want to say anything and use any phrasing that could be misinterpreted. Sure. So there's that thoughtfulness there, but it's a, I think it's a training there. And, um, it was interesting, you know, um, all three of them. Because yeah, it was, it was just like punching up a weight class, but also just the ways that there were kind of some freeze outs and some misdirections and some, I, I'll say maybe some tactics to gain a bit more control of the conversation than, than just while still appearing very open too. Right. Like, um, right. And I got that sense watching the film too. Yeah. So it's Sam Altman. Yeah. Uh, but good for them for doing it. Um, that's cool. And you guys actually almost had Elon. We were, we, he, he agreed via a third party and then we had his number and texted him a bunch of times and we were at the level of preparedness that was like, if he materializes tomorrow, we pop up the circus and we film like that. Just what we got to do. And, um, then we got kind of ghosted and then we kept seeing him on the news with Donald Trump. So he was, he was in the world, do another stuff during that time. So it was a busy point in his life. Yeah. Well, uh, let me ask you this. What was the most challenging part of making this film? It was more so like a million little challenges rather than one big thing. Like it was great to have such a big collaborative team on this film. But for the most part, we were not in the same rooms together. We were kind of doing it on zoom and doing this and that. And the few times that we were all together, we just made such leaps, um, that if I could have full authorship over the design of the production, it'd be like, we're all living in a, uh, a summer camp. Well, we make this movie. Maybe then we would have had a ton of eight months. I don't know, but it's just people I enjoy being around. And I'm, I'm, I definitely kind of blossom more in the in-person kind of creative collaboration. So there's that the visuals were super hard. Like we shot all that animation up here in Toronto. Um, but we, we kind of did this monumental kind of challenge of getting as much as we could, um, with, we didn't really have very limited resources to be completely honest, but the, on a technical level, some of the things that we're doing were very difficult. That magical computer box, every time you see that every frame of that, the whole entire face changes, like, and those were all little one centimeter by one centimeter by one centimeter, with the little magnets on them, on a metal box. So between every frame, they were all removed and then put back on in different orientation. God bless you. God bless you. And, and I, I'll take the blame for doing that that way. Daniel's studio, we rebuilt in Toronto at one to one scale. So everything is in the normal size and it was gigantic and hard to move. And some, also a challenge. Uh, but listen, all these, so it's a lot easier to watch than to create your Delaney. It's a lot easier to watch than create. And, and then, but I guess, I guess to, you know, after kind of talking out loud about it, the hardest thing just really was the story. Which is, you know, this is such a big topic with so many different kind of pathways that we could have gone down and to, you know, keep it in this kind of overview space that was, we're trying to make the film accessible to people who maybe don't want to think about the technology or don't care to engage with it. Um, and to decide what things to leave out, what things to put in and, and just kind of to put that line, like that was the maniac part of the film because there's just, like I said, I think Rohr made the comparison of it. It's like making a film about transportation. Like, you know, you can go to airplanes, you can go to cars, you can go to, like engineers, you can go to engines, you can go to like upholstery and seats. You can go to so many things, but that's the test, make a film about transportation. And then it's like, okay, how do you find a way to connect to give a narrative within that, that people can feel engaged with and, right, right. Um, give them a story and, and do all that. So AI was just, and AI, but AI also has like that sense of urgency to it as well. That, um, there's, we really felt the pressure to be as correct as right as we could be, um, because this, we, if, if the film's just easily dismissible, then the, then the, the subject is easily dismissible. We don't want people to just turn off their brains from AI. I love this combo because, and I also hate this combo because I feel like I just, I'm trying to, I want to talk, I have so many more questions, but we can't go. We would be talking forever as far as even just the AI of it all. But I do want to kind of lean back to fatherhood of it all. But I mean, that, what a, what a key that unlocked the door. I feel like that was the key piece for sure that, that, that drove the story and like the existential of it all, you know, it's like, it's, it's not just about me. It's about my kids, you know, my kids world. What, what, what is that going to look like? And even thinking about my own kid, you know, we're sitting around watching YouTube videos about model railroads and making, making stuff. And like, so, you know, when I think about your stop motion, two things. One, it's like my kid would love to just watch you. Do you have any videos of like, do you have any behind the scenes, like time lapses of making that? I wonder anything you could put together. We have a couple taken around. One of our compositors actually put together this. I'll try and find it here. I'll send it to you, Marcus. Put together one little behind the scenes piece that just left me. Wanting for more. I'm so bad with taking BTS stuff as I go, because usually I'm just in a place where I'm like, let's just get it done. I don't want to like, did it, did it, did it. Not totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we, last night we watched a guy, a 30 minute time lapse of four years of this guy putting together this model railroad. And it's like, this dude actually did all this and made sure to put the camera. Yeah, I know. Every time. Yeah. That's a different. I'm not, but, um, but I mean, come visit Toronto and bring them and he can come to the studio sometime and maybe I'll see, maybe we'll get into Tiff this year. We'll see. Yeah. This thing. Uh, but, um, um, also the choice of doing stop motion, uh, was that because of the contrast with like just being more kind of analog versus the, I don't know if it, it drove the choice, but it helped the choice because, you know, in this very digital technology, it's very shiny. It's, you know, on glossy monitors and screens, uh, stop motion is so undeniably handmade. Um, it's got, I don't want to say a roughness, but it's got a quality to it that, you know, a human could only construct that and piece it together in that way. And the team here at stop motion department, um, studio that I've worked with before and friends and colleagues and the animators that, that we got to work with on this film all brought, you know, it's more working with the animators is a lot more like working with actors. You know, you have your script, you have your set, and then they take it somewhere different and they can put their personality into it. They can put their sensibilities into it. So working with the enemy is like a Kosh and Kyla and Crystal and goodness, I'm blanking on names right now for some reason, cause I'm really bad at that. But, um, Phil and, and kind of everyone that worked on this film brought, brought something different to whatever shot they were working on. Um, so it's just been a medium that I've been so grateful to be able to work in. And I, I'm kind of a bit more of an analog guy. Like I need to put my hands on things and work with them and, and stop motion just offers that work. Cause there's, there's a tactility there that thankfully seems to read through. The, the film, like people connect with things when you kind of see a real object and you can feel the weight of it. Other than, um, and that being said, we also did CG animation with Michael unsprunter who did the, uh, utopia section, which takes all Daniel's drawings and put some on cardboard backdrops and stuff. And we go into space. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And we're, wait, those are all like physical props that he made a digital copy of and then moved through that world. That's so, so good. Let me ask you a question. What changed for you personally after making this film? I wish I could say like, oh yeah, like Eureka, I got it, but I, in a lot of ways, and it seems to change every day, but my general kind of, um, feeling now. Is I feel the same. I feel maybe a little bit less confused. Um, but still it's just a bigger scale now. I learned a lot more through making this film and a lot more about the technology that I still feel moments of overwhelm and anxiety about which way it's going, but is it's something that I'm not afraid to learn more about right now. I feel like I have much more foundational knowledge about it to learn more about it as I go and the ways in which I can interact with this technology and hopefully steer what it does. I mean, there's this, there's making a film with this team of people to say something about it. There's doubling down on some of the sensibilities I have that maybe are antithetical to this technology, like working in stop motion animation. Um, and there's things that, you know, I'm going to just be keeping a close eye on and, and, and interacting with on a level of like voting with my dollars and, you know, choosing one company, one chat bot over another, if I use one. But right now I'm trying to kind of keep, have less use with AI. Oh, pardon me. Here comes a little guy. Come on, bring him up. Sorry, Marcus. You know, it's also just the way that you can kind of even bend the tree slightly and then it will grow in a certain direction and it'll go in this whole other, you know, path, right? Meaning, yeah, having a conversation shift, interjectory might change things in such an important way, right? We don't have to fully turn the boat around because I don't know if that's possible, but you know, these little changes have to happen because the hub impacts generations from now. Future filmmaking. Like what is that as far as in relation to AI or just even not even AI? Like future filmmaking, what is your, it's a terrible shitty question. I'm sorry, but like, yeah, no, I mean, it's honestly something that I'm concerned about partly because of AI. It's something that, you know, in just the general sense of navigating life and questioning your own life choices, I'm like, did I go into the right field? Um, which is an awful feeling to have. Um, but I, audiences are always going to want to connect with something. And, you know, whether that's, whether that's a film, whether that's a documentary or whether it's turning into something else. Um, it's, it's going to find its place. And you know, I'm going to back this up because I feel like that's such a non answer that my answer is like, yeah, the future of filmmaking is, is I'm scared because I feel like theaters are dying. Um, you know, the, the version of movies I had as a kid growing up, I feel like aren't really a thing or, um, which is too bad, but maybe we're going from megaplexes back to single screen theaters. Like I've been saying this, that might not be horrible. Just down, but people also have to speak up and say what they want on a practical level, um, you know, TVs, home setups have gotten so much better that some people are just more comfortable with watching them at home. Um, and I guess where, where it comes to a head is like, where am I going to be as a filmmaker? Um, you know, am I still going to be able to make things because it is a medium that relies on an audience being present. Um, so that, that's, that's a concern. Um, and it was actually, um, if I had a Terrence Malick's new film is going to Netflix and yeah, he said something about the nature of it and I have it here. So I'm going to cheat a bit, but, uh, what was the good part that I liked about this? Um, movie theaters hold something sacred. Yes, but there was also a kind of intimacy in the solitary screen in that light, that in that light, illuminating a quiet room, perhaps this film belongs to that space more to screen, more interior. I don't know if this is an evolution or a surrender, perhaps just another way of continuing the search. Um, so I don't know if that's like super beautiful or incorrect because I never want to lose movie theaters. The, the ability to be in a dark room with a whole bunch of strangers and, um, it's the walking in and walking out. This is no bullshit though, where it's like, um, uh, when I was leaving your film, um, I was walking through the AMC, it was a AMC in the Glendale, and, um, uh, I had a moment to myself. It just hit me out of nowhere. Maybe it was your movie or maybe it was just this, just the topic we're talking about and I'm walking down this, this, uh, this hallway with the posters here, posters here, we're in a movie theater still, but I had this moment of this, like, of like, this might not be here soon. Just enjoy it. I got so sad. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was, it was just the, um, you know, not to be playing the violin so much here, but like it's, um, it's a worthwhile violin to play. Like if there's a world where we don't have movie theaters, um, it hurts my heart. What, uh, you know, I'll, I'll just lament for the people that don't get to experience that because it is, it's just so special. And I think the fact that, you know, we've had it for a hundred years and we can't even articulate necessarily why it's special. Right. It's, it's one of those things. It's like going to see live music, you know, it's a very different place. Being in like little old Kinston, you know, with all, with nothing really going right or well, but then I go to the theater and I'm walking down the hall to go see oceans 11. Yeah. And I'm like, and I, and I'm like, everything's okay. Everything just was okay. That for me, that was what it was. Maybe that's it. I mean, escapes are necessary and life and movies are an escape and there's so much more of an escape. And it's like traveling in a way, right? It's like you're going to play. It's when you're home, your phone's right there. Your dirty dishes are right there. Like everything's right there and just physically going to a theater. You get to at least do away with it all for just a little bit. It's like, you know, exactly. All right. So I got to ask you this before I forget before I let you go. Sure. What is your favorite movie of all time? Oh God. Um, so I can't answer that. Um, there have been so many movies that have been like, you know, so important to me and there's quite a few of them are ones I would never share with anyone else. Um, sorry, Marcus. I like you. But no, you know, let's just rephrase it. And I dare ask it that way. Just to see. Yeah. No, no, it's a worthwhile question to ask. And let me, or one movie is most inspired you, you know, what comes to your mind? You know, can you kind of cheat and redirect and just say like the most recent movie that I saw that had a big impact on me. Um, I'm going to give this two answers. One is, uh, I loved weapons. Weapons just blew me away and it had just this structure and had this, this way of kind of tackling that story that was that super sweet balance between horror and comedy that, um, neither genre did it disservice to the other. But, um, the film that I have the most kind of solid had the best experience watching, um, and it was actually in a theater. I saw weapons on an airplane, but in a theater, I saw 28 years later. And like, I loved Danny Boyle and I, and some of his films are the ones I can pick as like the greatest films I've seen. But if, if you've seen it, I don't want to give anything away, but if you told me on paper what was going to happen with Ray Fiennes and, you know, the thing, um, I'd be like, well, that sounds terrible, but the execution of it, which was what filmmaking is, which is a combination of performance plus, you know, the stylization, the cinematography, the music, the sets, everything. It kind of pulled off the impossible when you think about it from like what was probably, uh, just, you know, Garland's words on a page to how it was carried out, um, shows this kind of perfect collaboration, um, of a team. And, um, yeah, I, I, I was so floored by that movie and so happy to have seen in theater. I saw it with Phil. The, the animation director for this film. We both loved it. So, you know, great film. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last question, last question. Uh, if you could go back in time and give your younger filmmaking self some advice or some words or whatever, what would they be? Yeah. Um, a few, many things, uh, many, many, many things. Um, one, it's not a competition like, you know, life is long and don't compare yourself to others while trying to figure out what stories you want to tell. And that's just so important. I think for young filmmakers to know is that it might take you a while to find your voice and don't let your voice be an echo of someone else's. Um, so that's one thing. The second thing I would say is, you know, take it easy on yourself because it's going to be really hard and it's going to be a lot of, if not exclusively very lean years. So learn how to just cope with that. Um, rather than be stressed out all the time. And the third thing would be make sure that you aren't just focusing on making movies, you're focusing on doing other things in life. Um, go out and have as many other experiences as you can because they're going to inform your work and hopefully for the better. Um, don't just watch movies to make movies. Go live life to make movies. Perfect. Amazing. Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Great movie. And, uh, yeah, thank you very much. Amazing. I'm trying to pick apart your background movies. I see La Samurai. I see the hang, which I've actually never seen. Uh, that's my, uh, right. It's my top three. Top three. Yeah. And you might be top three. The aviators in my top three. It's weird. I love the aviator. So good. I love the aviator. I think that that's like, so Scorsese is like such an overrated, underrated guy where people are like, Oh, whatever, you know, there's, you know, there's deeper pods of filmmakers that you can go into. Right. And I'm like, yeah, the guy is still a fucking master. Did you watch the series on a, no, I haven't. Um, yeah. And Scorsese was actually like good fellows is probably up there for my thoughts because in the desert island movie sense, that movie's just so rich. But, um, yeah. The fact that that man exists is probably a big reason why I'm in filming. I'll never forget when he did that. What was it like mastercard or like the credit card commercial he did? Oh yeah. And I was a little kid and my mom was just like, do you know who that is? And I was like, I have no idea. And she's like, that's where in Scorsese. I'm, I'm like, who's that? And she's like, it's a film director. And I'm like, what's that? Just, I never really saw my mom revere too many people. Um, and the reverence that she had for this guy in an ad, I was like, I got to find out what that is. Like not that I was seeking reverence from anyone, but just it kind of turned a couple of things on. So yeah, the aviators, good choice. John C. Riley and that like. Just so it's so, uh, unlike any other movie I've seen and it's obviously the caprio kills it. And, uh, yeah. Michael Mann also had his hands on it for a minute, right? And he produced it. And there's just a layer. There's some wonderful, I mean, Alec Baldwin, Jesus. That movie's so good. Uh, that, uh, Jude Law cameo as Errol Flynn. Oh yeah. Okay. You got some good choices there. Please like and subscribe to this podcast and follow us on social media at past, present, feature and let us know in the comment section what movies you're watching. Thank you so much for listening to the past, present, feature podcast and we'll see you next time. 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