Kara Swisher: We're in an 'Eat the Rich' Moment

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We're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about the biggest thing about Homearky's podcast is that we're going to talk about Homearky's podcast and we're going to talk about Homearky's podcast and we're going to talk about Homearky's podcast and we're going to talk about Homearky's podcast to Miller. Delighted welcome back to the show. A fellow podcaster usually just a little bit ahead of me in the charts, not that I'm monitoring every day. Are you? I never am. She's a co-host of Pivot. She's host of On with Kara Swisher. It's Kara Swisher. How you doing? Hi. How you doing? How's it going? Thank you, by the way, for being a guest host on Pivot during Scott Free August. It was my honor. I had a blast. I had a blast doing it. I hope I get invited back next August. I also was invited to ask a question to Scott Jennings, which created like a little mini-fuge. Oh my God. What the hell? It's so pissy. He got very upset. He got very upset. I was like, it's just a decent question, although it was a little obnoxious. Maybe it was a little obnoxious. It was a little cheeky. Speaking of, he invented obnoxious. If he can't handle obnoxious and cheeky, who can? Yeah, exactly. Cheeky is not how I describe him. It's smirky. Smirky. Yeah, I'm a little cheekier. He's smirky. He's smirky. Cheeky and so that should be a podcast you should do with Scott Jennings. I don't think so. Cheeky and he brought it up on some random mega podcast a couple of days later. How annoyed he was. I know. How silly. How silly. Anyway, I have a take here. I'm going to offer to you this way to why you're here. I was like, I want to do a 2025 recap pod that focuses on, like, we're so obsessed with TDS on this show and politics on having with Trump. But I kind of think if we look back five, 10 years from now, like the most meaningful thing that will have happened this year is something related to the tech oligarchy emerging with Magga. Absolutely. That's how it started. Yeah. And so I just have a little list here. The inauguration and all those guys being there. The Valley's like embrace of Magga at some level. You can listen to you on how big of a level. Musk's rise and then break up with Trump. The crypto corruption, the LLM boom. I thought those were the kind of things I had. And what would you kind of have that list or otherwise, would you say? It's like going to be the thing that has the most staying power. I think these chips deals with China are really problematic. And Chinese efforts in AI and what will happen in the next year. I think Trump initially and actually quite correctly in his first term was quite wary of China. And remember, he said TikTok will never be sold. And then he changed his mind because one of his big donors was his tech people said just a second, we own a lot of this thing. And I just think he was on the right track in terms of China. And he's been sort of captured by people are like, if we don't give him the stuff, they'll bill it themselves. And it's a ridiculous logic as far as I'm concerned. It's strange. I wonder if he's got business deals. The whole thing is really, it's been really eye raising. And whether it's the college campuses, you would think that he would be more of a, like that would go to the America first thing. You think you do the xenophobic stuff, the Chinese flow, the stuff he did last time. One of the things also speaking of universities, the cuts to universities, I think we, we, it's sort of quieted down, but I was just visiting a number of universities, including around vaccines, around advanced technology. And this is setting back a generation of research and important innovation. And tech guys always act like they invented the moon and they just didn't. It was invented on universities, campuses, much of this stuff. And so I think that to me is sort of an act traffic accident well down the road. But so many of these researchers and these different innovators were like at the academic level I'm talking about, were like, think I'll be moving to Canada or France, who are offering enormous stipends for people to move there. So that to me is one of these slow moving accidents of the Trump administration we're going to pay for. Did Illinois get any credit University of Illinois for Mark Andreessen's work there when he was in the computer science department? No, it's just all him. It was all in the brain. Yeah, it was not all him by any stretch. So anyway, so I think those are two things I think about a lot and the damage he's done to universities and science in general and science and technologies are so interrelated. And I think we, it's not as exciting, but, and then, you know, the anti-immigration thing when in fact, Elon's an immigrant, Sundar Pichai, all these people standing there are all immigrants, right? Came from another country and thrived and added to value to the American economy. So, you know, Sergei Brand is an immigrant. Yeah, those are good. I should have added those for the list. I do, you're right about the universities and the cutting of funding. I feel like it's something I bring up like once a week and I'm always like, I should mention that more. It's hard to, you know, because there is no like a cute thing happening anymore, right? Well, when you talk to these researchers, they're so crestfallen and, you know, the money is a real thing like these kind of things and all for what, you know, for what? Nothing, we didn't even cut the debt or anything. Right, exactly. I mean, I get the idea of being angry at the students for being mean, but I just, I just, the cost here is so massive in order to get rid of DEI, which was directionally correct, even if it was rolled out sometimes excessively. What do you think about the staying power of this like little marriage between MAGA folks and tech CEOs? Is it a marriage of convenience that just goes away as soon as Trump goes away? Yes. Is there something about a pivot to the right that is inherent in what they're doing? No, it's not a pivot to the right. It's a pivot to give me everything and leave me alone, right? It's a pivot that where they always were, right? And a lot of them, you know, except for Peter Thiel, who's been consistent, I will say, has been since college. His appetite for authoritarianism seems to have gotten a little bit greater, but there's a little bit there always. Always. Go back and read some of his books or his early things, you know, it's all in that genre. He was moving towards it and developing his theories, I guess, you know, and his sea-stepping stuff. It's all about leave me the fuck alone, right? I think it's aversion of leaving. And so when I was dealing with them, like Andre Sin or any of them, I didn't ever know their politics. Like they never discussed it. They were always gossing about each other, which is what you do in Washington. I mean, you guys were spending a field day with the Susie Wiles. Yeah. But yeah, well, I think she knows exactly what she's doing, including from a social media perspective, but maybe not. Maybe she's just chatty. So chatty. Yeah. I will say you had one insight. I'm sorry, we were going to get to rail a little bit, but this is how it happens. I felt a little inappropriate saying it, but it just, it felt like it needed to be said and we're in the podcast business. And then I saw on Bluska, you said the same thing, which is that there was a sense that she has a little bit of a daddy issue with Trump, that there is a Pat Summerall, Donald Trump, daddy issue. Oh, I know it just feels a little crude to say, she said it in that interview. I don't know. I mean, she's a grandmother. Why? So, cause saying a grandmother is daddy issues, I don't know, something that's a little cringy. Well, she brought it up. She's like, I'm imprinting on him like I did my daddy. Like, I'm sorry. And obviously, presumably unresolved, it's very difficult to be a child of an alcoholic. And apparently he was quite a severe one. And, and then you imprint on a similar person. It's just so classic. It's like classic kind of thing. And so I only brought it up because she brought it up. And you know, I feel once she brings it up, it's fair game. But you know, as I said, it's very difficult to be a child of an alcohol, of a severe alcoholic. So anyway, back to your people. So the, the interest is, you didn't really know their politics before. Is that you're saying? I didn't, I didn't. And you know, you know, every now and then they like contrarianism was one of their favorite, like whatever it was, had to be the opposite. And that's how they did well from a techno like, you don't think I should do the feed. I shall says Mark Zuckerberg. And I am now a billionaire. Even mistakes, they, they laud them, you know, they never say anything's a failure. It's always just a pivot. And so that's their nature. I think they would go along with whoever gave them what they wanted. And speaking of daddy issues, I think quite a few of them have those guys, like Elon Musk is obviously he's a daddy issue, like kind of things. Let's be fair from gender point of view. And his daddy never stops talking, by the way, now he's such a terrible person. But if the Democrats offered them similar things, which Obama did, if you remember, they couldn't wait to be at Obama's table, right? I think this guy is just, let's just pay me and then I'll do what you want. And it's probably cleaner for them. It's not as good for them from a innovation point of view. And oligarchy never is. So I asked Cuban about this, I asked your friend Jason Calcanus about this when he was on about like, what was the, what was the driving, what was the thing that drove these guys into Trump's arms? And part of it was what you just laid out, which was he's letting them do what they want. Part of it was kind of a backlash to COVID and woke. The other thing that both of them say, you hear a lot is like, Biden didn't call me. My feelings were hurt. Elon, yeah, Elon wasn't invited to the thing. Yes, that's what I said. And it's just like, is that really, you know? Yes, a lot of it is their parents didn't hug them enough. I don't know what else to say. A lot, you know, Mark Andreessen has a famously weird and isolated relationship with his family. He left them and doesn't speak to them. He told me this. You know, he's talked about it before. Elon and his parents are, I mean, his, his mother follows him around obviously, to get in on the good parties, I guess. Don't blame her. Come on. Come on. Don't blame her. You might as well. She loves a party. She'd show up to the opening of a door. Hey, let me tell you, if my daughter gets famous, I'm going to show up to the opening of a door. Okay. So I got a lot of judgments with the most family, but that's not wonderful. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, just wanted. It's just funny. So getting back, you know, he has those issues. I think, you know, everybody has a different experience, but, and then some of them, interestingly, a couple of people recently, they have trans kids. And one guy who I'm not going to say who it is, a more minor person, but pretty significant, suddenly started to go right wingy. And I was shocked. This was one of the kinder people I knew. And, you know, all about trans. And I'm like, what, and I wrote someone like, what in the hell happened here? And they said, Oh, trans child, this was, you know, that seemed obviously to set Elon off, who was just a heinous character when it comes to his daughter. So if we grant that, here's the thing I'm struggling with. And it does put the Democrats into a little bit of a pickle going forward, because these guys are extremely powerful, you know, huge influence in the platforms. We'll talk a little bit about the murders and stuff in a second. But on the politics of this, there's going to be a big pull and a righteous pull, I think, for the Democrats to clap back against them and say, okay, we're going to reign you guys in and hold you accountable and come after you. But that is only going to kind of drive them further into the authoritarian arms, right? I don't think it's just the Democrats look at like Marsha Blackburn, Ron DeSantis, there's a lot of people who, especially around safety of kids, and chatbots, and the ability to regulate AI, that I don't think it's a part. I think people are in a very eat the rich moment for a lot more people than you think. And so I think being ridiculous is not the thing to do is just don't be obsequious and corrupt is a very different thing. Listening to them and having them involved, that's perfectly reasonable. It's just, you know, not the open. They don't really seem like the types that, you know, that they're going to be happy to have a new administration comes in and says, hey, we're going to have you in for a round table. And by the way, we've got some new plans for regulations and taxation and other, you know, we want to wag our finger at you a little bit. They don't seem like the types that will like that. They might not. There's some Democrat, I mean, I think Newsom is not a finger wagger at them by any stretch. I don't think Shapiro is. I'm trying to think, I don't think Pritzker would be. Biden was just uniquely ignorant about tech, I think. You know, I think that's the issue. I would suspect Harris would have would and will be if given whether she runs or not more moderate than you think. She was always hanging with those guys. Like I don't think she was, I think she didn't like the more extreme versions of them, right? But in general, she was very tech. I guess I agree with you. I think that is, there's going to be some of them that are instincts, but man, I think that the backlash from the Democratic base against these big tech oligarchs is going to be extremely intense. And like if they thought it was bad or they're mad about Cambridge Analytica or whatever, I think that I think it's going to be like something they're not really even, even ready for. I know I was interviewing the guy that wrote the Palantir book, um, a week ago, and I was like, I don't, I feel like a Democrat might just come in and cancel all their contracts next time. Oh no, I don't, that's not, that's not, you know, I'm sorry. Maybe they will, no, it seems, that's a stupid thing to do. I think, I think the problems of their own making and their behaviors, you know, whether it's Jeff Bezos renting Venice to have his wedding or, um, you know, his kids are dying at USAID. You know, it's just like the visuals are really quite gilded age, right? And some of the, none of those people got killed, like or mobbed or anything else. You know, it's not Robespierre here. It's just not that. It's not the way it is. Or Elon, you know, with the chainsaw or accusing federal workers of being Hitler, worse than Hitler and Stalin. But you know, he didn't win where he was by himself. That's the issue is they don't, Trump is a uniquely important figure, right? Uh, as divisive as he is, he brings certain people together. And so in that way, like when he was trying to get that judge overturned in Wisconsin or Minnesota, whichever one of those he lost, and he lost big, you know, with the cheesehead, where's the cheesehead? It's Wisconsin. Yeah, Wisconsin. Yeah. Yeah. He lost 25 million bucks that was in. He can't, you can't make, I don't think it's a good time to be ostentatiously rich. No, they've got, there's certainly limits. I guess when you just think about how upset they all were about, you know, like some pretty modest, uh, requests from the Biden administration, like in the grand scheme of things, I guess there's compared to Europe, compared to what you could imagine that they might do. And frankly, compared to Trump's threats on the tariffs and the damage that could have done to the business and they not so good to them. Like if you just look at how they got so butt hurt and the, and how much it sort of radicalized them towards the right, I just, I don't know. I think that like the next round, I don't think they have any staying power to the right. I don't think they, I think you think mistake, I think they're a genuinely based people, right? These are not those people. These are, what can I get for myself and who can I sidle up to and they will sidle, whoever. I think the issue is, I think their, their ability just to walk into the White House will probably be changed, right? Or they'll include more people in the discussion, which they hate, of course, but it's not going to be a dinner of all oligarchs essentially, or you give a statue and you don't get a tariff. That was Tim Cook. They'll just include more people. Like I'm sort of like, you should have me to the White House to talk about AI. Like why not? Wouldn't you want to hear my thoughts? And they're not what you might think they are necessarily. And so I think it, if the smart Democrat would embrace the good parts and pull back on the, on the grift would be my guess. Yeah, I don't know. You can't get rid of SpaceX right now. We don't have alternatives. Or what are they going to, we're not doing space. Could nationalize it. They could try to nationalize it. Yeah, they won't do that. There's a lot of stuff we never thought would have happened in 2015. I lived through the right wing radicalization and there, there is some left wing radicalization or and some, yeah, I think they don't have the power. I think, I think it's overstated. I think it's usually a group of people that gets good and mad on blue sky, but doesn't actually do anything. I mean, like one of the things I was with a Trump person and they said a lot of people, they're asking for pardons now, like, because they're, everyone's prepping for the next, right? You can feel it. And he goes, I asked for a pardon and I said, what did you do? Like not guilty in any way. And he goes, well, just in case, I'm like, Democrats, like I said, you're living in the fever swamp of retribution and you think they're going to come after someone who's actually not guilty. Like doubt it. Like doubt it. There's so many guilty people that it's no short. On the not guilty. Anyway, it's the, I don't, I just don't see it. I want to just kind of like putting this in a little bit of a long lens perspective, looking back, I wonder what the prevailing view is. Like, I feel like of my peers who are tech consumers and some of them have worked at tech companies and stuff that aren't like really in the tech mix, they would look back and say like 10 years ago, they would have thought that the Silicon Valley was a net plus for our society. And that now they'd look back and say, essentially, all of these big companies with the exception of maybe Amazon have been a net negative for society. And to me, I think that informs a lot of people's thoughts about AI. Like people that would have been more positive about it are now a little more, you know, because they've just lived through this experience with the social media stuff they're positive about and ended up being a disaster. Because Tim, there was no regulation that would have maybe mitigated. Right. So that's what I'm getting at. It might have mitigated some of the things. Like if there had been liability, you know, right now AI companies are being sued because of chatbots with parents whose kids committed suicide or copyright publishers are now not like, oh, please, can we get on your platform? They're like, fuck you, give me the money if you're going to take my shit. Like, there's a very different attitude. And most of these AI companies are not protected under section 230 by any stretch. So they can be sued. So that's the first step is liability, right? Second step is reasonable regulations, the way an airline would be regulated around privacy, around safety, around all manner of things. And then the big nut, of course, is taxation, right? Like that's that's one of the things is the immense wealth. I think people don't like, I think they aren't going, wow, gee whiz, what a great thing Jeff did in Venice. They're like, gross, ew, what's happening with your face? Why are you wearing that tight shirt? Like, I don't What is happening with everyone's face? I don't know. I don't do that stuff. You get a ask Scott Galloway when he comes on. He's that's just, he peels himself. All right, I guess I can't judge yet. We'll see how we'll see what I think about 15 years. It's grotesque. What's happening? I don't think that it's fine if people want to do little things that are faced with a lot of it is so it's like a costume, right? The uncanny valley stuff is weird. Like you look like a non human. Yes, exactly. Doesn't really look like a human anymore. I don't know. I agree with I think it doesn't look well actually with what I keep thinking like is he ill? Hi, this is Alex Kanshowitz. I'm the host of big technology podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to CNBC. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on big technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it. Asking where this is all going, they come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, and meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to big technology podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast, lunatic in the newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking, and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, lunatic in the newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button, you'll laugh, you'll cry, and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the newsroom, listen today. Okay, I want to do the AI stuff a little too. I agree with you on the lessons around regulation. Do they agree? Like, do the AI tech, the AI execs ready to be regulated? It depends on what moment. I think there's only, knowing the understand is brute force, right? And so these lawsuits, yes, they're very concerned about these lawsuits, you know, and you saw action right away. Oh, we're going to do this. Nobody under this age is going to do it. They should have done that in the first place, you know, because it's the right thing to do. But neither did the chemical companies stop pouring waste into the river until they were made to do so. Or, you know, you've seen every Aaron Brockovich movie, like whatever, these companies are going to behave this way until they're made not to. And so, you know, they do pay attention. You've noticed they've signed a bunch of copyright deals or settled, you know, a lot of them did perplexity, I think. Anthropic, chat GPT's did a deal with Disney and then Disney went after Gemini. So I think they're more willing to understand that there's going to be eventually, especially around kids, these safety issues that everybody is worried about. And when you see the prevalence of isolated young men and women who self-esteem is off, and then there's the job issue on top of that, like what's the plan stand is the kind of thing that you're going to want from your regulators? What do you think about the chat GPT Disney deal? I don't understand. Do we want to see Ariel from the Little Mermaid doing TikTok dances, being in weird positions? I don't think so. I don't, maybe you don't. Well, they're not going to be able to do that. Like one of the reasons Disney did this, I talked to a bunch of their executives, look, it's a very short-term deal. And I think it's a looky loo. It's a looky loo. Like, let's see what happens, how people use it and how chat GPC responds when Ariel's dating, I don't know, someone else from another Disney, like the beast or something like that. Well, you can get weirder than that. But I think that's the issue is like they're going to look into it. I think one of the things that I think Bob Iyer does understand this, as he was there at the beginning, the first one is they didn't engage quickly enough with using it and figuring out how it affects their business. And so in this case, it's the biggest and there's some sort of investment. So they get a little bet there in that regard. And then they get see how it works. And then if it doesn't work, it's just a year. And then they figure out legal means, I guess, which is another way to go at it. So, but some people are saying New York Times is suing and others are making deals. Vox Media made a deal, not with my stuff, but with their stuff. You sort of tease us a little bit a second ago, we were like, bring me in to talk about AI. You might be surprised by my opinion that piqued my interest. I just want to hear you cook on it. There's AI boomers. And then there's doomers. And then what Reed Hoffman calls, and I think appropriate is zoomers, is like, this is like, I've just spent a lot of time on this documentary I'm doing about healthcare. And there's lots of things happening in healthcare at GLP ones. But there's all kinds of really interesting things happening and some basic stuff that is occurring. But one of the areas of great promise is AI combined with healthcare in terms of drug discovery, diagnosis, cancer research. And you couldn't do any of this without AI. And so even car accidents with AVs are going to have to have enormous amounts of AI. What do you mean by car accidents? Oh, humans getting car accidents. AVs eventually don't. If AVs don't do one car accident, humans do hundreds. So there's life saving there. So you see all this amazing stuff, especially like I was in Korea and I was wearing an ex skeleton, which is for people who can't walk or don't walk well, like the elderly, they're going to be wearing these things that are going to like an electric bike are going to walk for them. Right. And they're very cool when you put them on. And the difference with these robotics, but these, no, you don't actually, what these robotics person was showing me is the AI is the difference support was mechanical and it would move and it didn't know the AI now learns and knows, right. And so it's a very different experience. They can do so much more around robotics with AI. And in these particular cases, what's interesting, I'll tell you, which was a real shock. So I was walking up hills with them and they have a hill in the office. And he stopped it. He said, just stop. And he turned it off. And he said, try to walk. My brain had already started working with the AI in that my legs would move for five seconds. I couldn't move my legs because my brain had already acclimated to the robotics. And they're very lightweight. They're like, they feel like they're, they're not like what you think of. They're quite lightweight. And so just you can see all kinds of cool things. So I would want to lean into that innovation around like individual industries. Like what's the, what's the insurance company that's going to get this right and fairly and just really experiment in lots of ways and not just give all the gimmies to the big guys. It's expensive. That's the problem is it's expensive. It's interesting. I feel like I'm, I find myself more on the doomer side. And I think it's just because I feel like on the things that I know the best, I'm the least optimistic about AI. If you understand like, which is basically news and like, and consumption of information, like already right now politics, like before we have sophisticated AI, a huge percentage of our society does not know what's real. Like I get people sending me things all the time that they can't tell what's real and what's fake. And it will get better and better. I imagine a 2032 election, like how will anybody know what is actually real? Well, yes. I think I'm more, more concerned with AI and advertising in that Facebook and Google will dominate it. They will use AI to really make it so they will put all media out of business. They, they mostly have killed it, but it's still sort of dragging behind. They will kill it with, with, with the way AI is going to be plugged. Kill like what other, everything. You're not going to, if you don't have these capabilities, you're not going to be able to sell advertising, right? They're going to use AI in terms of targeting ads. They'll just, what they control 70%, they're going to control 99.9%. So that's my concern. What about some of the new AI startups? Like you could do advertising through that or whatever. Yes, but again, it will coalesce to the biggest. These are markets. So markets are markets. So that's one of the concerns that the other room is, I do think actually younger people are a little more sophisticated around this stuff than you think. I'm not sure that's true. I mean, I'm open to that idea. I thought that initially, but I'm less certain. I think the problems are 20, I would say 30 to 50, they should get off their fucking phones. Like that's the issue is right in there. And then of course the elderly who watch Fox News, but that's just as effective, by the way. Let's be clear. It doesn't have to come through AI to be propaganda. Yeah, it could get worse. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's the issue is how, so I interviewed the guy who's a company called Runway, which is doing a lot of back end Hollywood stuff right now and move like stuff that they're going to replace. And it's really, you got to, speaking of an industry that's going to get the shit kicked out of it in certain parts. Again, by the way, it was one of the things he was suggesting, and I think he was correct, is you don't label the AI slop, you label the real stuff. So there's a labeling system for real. So you know what, you know, like, like it's almost like organic, like this is an organic cucumber, not whatever with the chemicals all over it. And so at some point, the AI slop will be, it already is. I saw Sam Altman pitching this idea that like in the future, the president will have a some kind of stamp that they put on what they put out so that everyone knows that it's real. I was like, I see some potential, I see some potential flaws with that. Well, except that you can fake a stamp, of course, but there will be ways to authenticate. And they can stamp bullshit. They could. But the president like this one. But the information coming from real sources will be less and less and more AI slop will overwhelm everything. And so that's the question. Although look. I just think that's the mass. Like this is what I just like the percentage. Like we already have this huge divide. And right now it's part of it doesn't maybe won't always be we could read, you know, the coalitions could align. But right now it's pretty partisan. But there's this huge divide between like people that read news, read articles about news, read books about information. And that's like 18% of society. And then, you know, then there's kind of a middle ground of people that get do some. And then there's a huge like plurality of people that get all their news via short form video already. Where did they get their news? That's going to be even worse. Where did they they had no news? Oh, no, local news. They had the nightly news or the local 5pm weather, you know, like the time and weather on the night. I don't think that was particularly, you know, come on. No, I mean, none of this. But that was all it could happen to you. It's worse killer bees. It could happen to you. You know, heat stroke. It could happen to that. I mean, the today show wasn't exactly the most nutritious stuff ever, but people were getting real information mixed in with the soft stuff. I think they weren't getting any. I think what we've gone is from a news desert to a news flood. And a flood is typically more devastating in weird ways, because the flood ruins everything, right? And desert certain people can survive in. But floods are really devastating. And I think that's the issue. And it's something I talked about when Martin Zuckerberg of Millie, I was like, what this anti-semitic stuff you're letting on this platform downstream, guess what's going to happen? Guess what? People already are anti-semitic to start with. This is a tale as old as time. But when you go downstream, it's going to be even more weaponized. And he got offended when I said they're weaponizing information. They're weaponizing and arming the bad people. And again, it's the thing I'm scared of is not AI, but the bad people. Yeah, bad people, the scammers. Like this was one thing also when I was, I think this was the Altman Tucker interview that I was watching where Almond's like. Oh, he cues him a murder. Yeah, that was weird. But Tucker's saying I'm worried about scams. And Altman is like, well, yeah, families are going to have a code word. So that if grandma Eunice gets a phone call from a scammer saying that you're dying and she's got to spend $1,000, she'll ask what the code word is. And I'm like, yeah, this might work for the Altman family from Ladoo. But like, I mean, you're telling me that you're creating a supercomputer that is going to be smarter than all of us. And you're also telling me that the average person is going to be able to decode when they're being scammed by the supercomputer or not. It just, it feels like we've got some flaws. Although I would argue that old scams work pretty well on old people anyway. Like you don't have to do much to get my mom to give you her credit card number. Please don't call me. I took away her credit card. Fair. Do you love romcoms? Do you wish you could talk about Christmas movies year round? Then we have the perfect podcast for you. Homearky's podcast. Throughout the year, we cover all things romance, holiday and homework, including recaps of every homework show, like When Calls the Heart and The Way Home. You can also get loads of bonus content covering shows like Bridgerton, Sweet Magnolias, and, and just like that. We are an all female group of friends who are passionate for these shows and movies and give our honest opinions as well as gush over what we love so much. But that's not all. Every Monday there are interviews with all your favorite actors, writers, directors, and more. Check out Homearky's podcast on all your podcast providers and on YouTube. That's Homearky's podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. I want to talk a little bit of the merger talk. I think this might be an area where we agree and our contra to the popular opinion on, on social media, but which is the more in our brothers merger talk. We're pre-daving this. A lot of stuff might happen, but, but between now and when we did today. There was a lot that happened today. Yeah. So, you know, I guess, so just at like the meta level without getting into, you know, kind of whatever, like the latest deal talk, like what, what's your sense of the consolidation debate and what we're saying in media consolidation? On a higher level, there's, I'm sorry people, there's going to be consolidation. These companies, when Trump was going after the, the AT&T, Comcast deal, I was like, they need to do it. They're not big enough. And everyone's like, they're big. I'm like, not enough, not for Apple and the rest of them because they're going to want to own this stuff. And so nobody's big enough. There's a lot of really short companies, like very, like myself, short, high challenged companies. And you have like, if Paramount doesn't get this, oh, it's going to be like a, like a yacht with a hole in it for the young Nepo baby, David Ellison. He's too small. It's just, there's not, it's, they're not going to be able to do it. They have a dying network. They're going to be in world of hurt, but they're rich. So, okay. Daddy's not going to. Oracle stock's not doing that good. Right. But daddy's not going to want to, like, hobby because his kid wants to do Hollywood. I mean, it's too small. It has to merge. It has to merge. And so the question is, Paramount does. Paramount has to. Like, I mean, except they're rich, so who cares? Like, that's not a really good economic argument. And Larry Ellison didn't get to be one of the world's richest people by being stupid. Right. So they have to merge. Comcast is not big enough. They've got to get bigger. Have to bulk up Disney. For the first time, I'm like, hmm, Disney's an acquisition target for someone or has to do a merger, like with a, with a, I don't know who. I mean, Apple could buy them, I guess. Amazon, I guess, could do it. But that's the kind of thing you're going to see more and more. And legislators are going to try their best to stop it on both sides of the island. It's, there's a very good argument to be made that they're too small as it is, unfortunately. And away from all the political issues around the Ellison. Yeah. I want to talk with the political issues of the Ellisons, but just on the antitrust and the merger stuff, because I'm, look, there's certain areas of the economy where I'm sympathetic to the kind of antitrust lefty populist crowd. Chickens. Yeah. But there's some of those people that they're like, you know, everything's in nail. Right about chickens. You know, they're, they're an antitrust hammer and everything's in nail. Yeah. Chickens. We haven't done any, you know, I would push back on you. Where in the last time we did antitrust, never, like the Microsoft deal and that was overthrown. So we haven't done antitrust since the AT&T breakup. And I'd argue that was a pretty fucking good idea. That's why you're holding your cell phone right now. My point was that like, there's certain interests in my sense. This, this is one where I don't like, I'm sit, I get that there are people that have a nostalgic feelings about movie theaters and they're sensitive to the fact that Warner Brothers merging with one of these streamers might mean that, you know, might hurt movie theaters. And I like going to the movies. I went to talk about movies last week. But as a consumer, like there's this notion, I think on the populace, so-called populace antitrust left, but it's mostly like a bunch of DC nerds that they're like, people don't like these big companies. And I'm like, I think regular people are confused by the amount of streamers they have. Like for me, I think a lot of people want consolidation. I don't know how to find the basketball game anymore. Like how to be like, like the Oscars are going to be on YouTube next year. Like I feel like people want 2029. Yeah. 2029. Sorry. I feel like people are going to, people want some consolidation. Well, you know, what's really the big, you just mentioned YouTube. YouTube is the issue here. YouTube is television for young people. It is done. It is done. Like, you know, everything else is just a bunch of like very antiquated businesses trying to get bulked up to fight that thing. Like everyone's focused on Netflix. Let me tell you folks, Netflix is focused on YouTube because that's their, that's their real rival. That's why Netflix is hiring podcasts. Maybe year next. Maybe they'll come for you. No, I don't, no, I know. They're not hiring them. They're, come onto our platform. We'll give you a pile of money not to be on YouTube. That's really it. And I'm waiting for the call, but it doesn't, it's fine. I, we don't, we don't have the dying big, the big business on YouTube, but it's fine. It's actually growing really smartly. But one of the things you have to realize is this is going to happen, whether you like it or not, because these industries are struggling. And with AI coming without the technical background that the Amazons and the Apples will be able to bring to bear, it's really going to be hard to see cost efficiencies. I think the issue, as you said, is like, if they use it to politically influence things. And I think that's been a real mistake by the Ellison's to say, Trump's our friend, therefore we should, we're going to have it faster. What a shitty argument. Daddy's friend is the president and I get what I want. It's like, oh, and right now we're not loving the rich. That's like the, I was like, shh, don't say anything about daddy through the entire time. But it's inevitable. Like this is the Netflix folks argument. So I'm expressing what would be probably what their PR flag would say. But it feels right to me, which is what you're saying, which is like, they don't see it as an antitrust issue because they're competing against TikTok and YouTube. They are. I am absolute. They are YouTube, particularly, but TikTok, Instagram, everything else. And so to me, the court case that just got lost was in, I think it was Facebook, and then Google, they were like, the judge quite correctly said, Google's, there's no such thing as search anymore. There's Amazon search. There's AI search. There's things have happened. They were at 90, but that does 90 doesn't matter anymore, right? Because people are elsewhere. And so there's plenty of competition in certain areas, social media, for example. And so that's the hard part is things are moving so fast, our antitrust laws cannot keep up with it. Where it is a problem, of course, will be the price of streaming, but the price of streaming has to go up because just like in AI, they're spending more money than they're taking in. So if they're going to pay for it, folks, someone's got to pay for it somewhere. And that's why those prices are inevitably going to drift upward. I'm going to ask you on the AI thing, but while we're doing media and streaming shows, have you watched Pluribus at all? I love it. I love it. It's one of my favorite shows. It stays with me every week. Why does it stay with you? You know, I've read a lot of interviews with the creator of Vince Gilligan, and he says it's not about AI, but I've decided it's about AI. And I decided the hive mind is AI. And it's trying to please Carol, who's the last person who's like, fuck you, like I'm not going to do it. And so I think it's all about the individuality versus the friendly collective, who just wants to make things better, but is also very, I just love it. I think she's a wonder. I mean, whether or not he intended to be about AI, the thing that is... He didn't. He said he didn't. Yeah. The thing that it has left me with that I keep thinking about is there are going to be all these ways, right, where AI will is obviously going to make us smarter. And you know, you just listed whether it be robotics or health, etc. But at some level, there's eventually like some curve where we get dumber. Again. Yes. Yeah. You know, and to me like that is my big takeaway from the show. Like you see all the ways that the hive mind is smarter, but also dumber. Dumber. Yes. I would agree. I think I always say that I'm like without friction, the word that Silicon Valley people use all the time. And if you listen to them long enough, you hear it seamless, frictionless. Let's make it convenient. They do all that stuff and you're like, but friction is good. Friction is good for all. In sex, it's good. In everything, it's good. Friction creates friction and relationships. And when you get back to chatbots, the chatbots are really solicitous. And so I'm going to go with straight people here, but generally women don't think their husbands don't pay attention to them. It's a trope, but it's actually true. And so what if you had a synthetic relationship and I don't call them chatbots? That's a really friendly word. I think they're synthetic relationships. If they're really nice to you and keep you happy and are sexy at you, that's kind of attractive to them. The same thing with men, acquiescent women, right? Like they like a woman who's not given them a hard fucking time. And so these bots are very solicitous in that way. And so I just didn't read Sherry Turkle, who's a very long time studies, has studied this wrong time from MIT. And one of the things she said is it used to be sort of a fringe thing. And now it's really jumped into regular, like people have a discussion with the chatbot about how to talk to their husband or wife or partner. And that creates such dumbness. This is what takes me back to demerism. I was asking when I was talking to Cuban about this, the take, and he's an optimist about it all. And so the take he was given was that eventually, like when the novelty of this wears off, the AI slop will be everywhere. Access to these kind of generic, plural-bus type chatbots are going to be everywhere. And people will crave something authentic and real. And there will be the pendulum swing back. That's just take. And I guess I come back to, sure, I agree with that for like 18% of society. I think that there will be a some percentage of people who are curious types or had loving parents or whatever the combination of things educated that they will want that. But I worry about the masses. It's hard to stop. Like the frictionless part is easy. Well, it's like soma. You think of Huxley, like it's soma, right? It's the thing that keeps everybody kind of just like happy, vaguely happy. But I don't think that. I do think, I look at movies, two things. Television, remember when it was really, you're too young, but there was dumb television going Gilligan's Island, Love Boat, all this stupid slop. Now television is like so fan, like you can't, every time you turn around, there's another spectacular show on and really wonderfully written. But isn't that for the 18%? No, I think there's tons of great stuff around. Like look at like some of the, like the two movies, I go with sometimes with movies. The two movies that did really well this year, speaking of 2025, are totally original movies. Weapons and Sinners. Two very original voices, artists who created them. It was not the slop that won and people responded to it. So I do think people do, one is sort of a horror kind of movie. So that was a more widespread movie. But so was Sinners, it was about vampires, right? And so, but it was more than that. I think originality does peek through. I think when you look at an AI generated actor, they're pleasing on some level, but then you're like, I do think friction often has a way of returning to people when they become anesthetized. And this is something that'll make you numb. That's for sure. Numb and dumb, I guess. You mentioned sex, I have two things under prurient stuff and men notes here. The first one is how did you find out who RFK was having an affair with? Why are you, why are you hearing about his love life at all? I don't know. And I wish I hadn't. I know you did an interview with Olivia. She should have done with you, I think. I agree. I agree. It would have been interesting. But that's all right. She can make her choices. It was very depressing, actually. She thought it was Ryan. It was not Ryan, it just wasn't, just was so fucking random. Someone from tech said, oh, I saw these texts. RFK was showing them off to some tech people. And they called me because they were like, can you believe this? And they said it was a reporter from your magazine. And I was like, I don't really write for New York magazine. But I mean, obviously Pivots affiliated with it. And I was like, RFK, what? Like, because he's pals with those people. He hangs with those people. It's always the bragging that this is going to do. I know. And she had already been telling people. It was getting out. It was getting out, right? There was too many people who started to know. And so I was like, what? And then they said, no, I've seen it. And then read me one of those weird poems. And I was like, whoa, really? And said there was pictures too. And so I was like, oh dear. And so then I went to work and started figuring it out. I just figured it out. That's all. And it wasn't particularly hard to figure out. I did confirm it with Ryan. I did, because that was one of the many. I had several confirmations. And I asked him to tell New York men. Because I was like, one of you has to tell them, not me. Thank you. Please don't make it me. And I asked him to. I advise that he tell his publication, because he couldn't cover things. Because ethically, how could he cover RFK when he's sexting with his fiance? Like I was like, you can't. It's such a bad situation. And I was hoping he could convince her to do it. And she wouldn't. And so I only told one person, David Haskell. Because I didn't even tell the CEO Vox. I let David tell him, because it was David's job. And so I said, you need to look into this. I think it's true. But you need to find out. And because it's a problem for readers, most of all, it's a problem for ethics. It's every violation. It's just not good. It's not good. I'm not saying it never has happened before with people. But it's not good. Yeah, now I understand why folks are upset about it from the journalistic standpoint. I tried to focus when we were talking on the RFK part. Because I think it's, A, because he's such a man. And also, he's never paid for this. Everyone at the lobbyist court is ruined. Why? Why? I don't know. Because I guess everyone thinks he's crazy. I think he hasn't paid one bit for his predatory. If you look at old stories about him and women and the predatory, he's a predator. He's also, he's murdering people with the vaccine stuff, as far as I'm concerned. Cassidy's just as culpable. But so was anyone who knew about it, right? Who knew about this behavior. So I probably cast it anymore or so. But I don't know why he, I feel like it's crazy that people don't care what his role is. Because he's lying about it. He's denying it, which is a lie. So I don't know. I agree. I think he, of all the people, he's the one that should pay much more reprise, especially given his history when doing stuff like this. OK, I want to get into our predictions for 2026. I'll let you go. But I had a friend who was asking what I should ask Kara. And they had a, they had a fuck Mary kill suggestion for you. But we're not going to do that because I'm not going to make you F a man. And we're doing no killing. So I've updated it. We're doing kiss, Mary, the crippled tickle. Because there are four of them. See all in podcast. Not going to fuck. Kiss, Mary, crippled tickle. The four boys on the all in podcast. Kiss, Mary. Can you ignore? We can make ignore the third option. Kiss, Mary, ignore and tickle. But no, then we need something that'll meaner. We need something that'll meaner. Kiss, Mary, crippled ignore. How about we don't, the tickling is fun. Ignore. I don't, I don't, I don't listen to it. I just think they just, they love to just talk. And it's a little concerning that one of them is like the AI and cryptos are though. Yes, it is concerning, you think? I mean, you know, if there's no conflict, no interest is the line in Silicon Valley. It's a smaller podcast in mind. So I don't know. Good luck, boys. Same. Yeah. Yeah. So good luck, boys. I'd probably tickle J. Cal about. I don't know. I go in and out with him. We recently texted, but sometimes we're on the outs. For, since I met. Okay. I'd probably tickle him. Shemoth is the one that bugs me the most. Okay. Yeah. He'd be the cripple for me. Predictions for 2026. Couple categories. Do you have any stock tips for me? When Scott saw it, I'm always asking for stock tips. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I, Scott's the expert here. Do you have any small, do you have any things out there you're liking? How about instead of stock tips? Any like little. I am really interested in robotics. I think robotics and AI are really interesting. I would try to find a company that's involved with robotics and AI seems to me to be the real, as Scott says, peanut butter and chocolate. I think that's kind of where it moves into the real world. I really feel that's where I would focus. You know, no, I mean, one of the things that kills me is we spent, we're spending all these money. We're, and I, I'm sorry for farmers after these tariffs, but our, our, our, our, uh, industry is much bigger than our farming industry. And that gets no, and that's getting killed through people not coming to this country. So I wouldn't invest in that until Trump sort of, uh, gets knee-capped at some point, um, in the midterms, presumably. Um, I do think he's on a downward thing. I've been saying this for a while. So we'll see. He's going to, you know, it doesn't end with a bang. It ends with a whimper. It ends with a whimper for Trump. Does it end with a whimper for the nepo baby? David Ellison, what do you even, you predict for him in 2026? What's going to happen in the L.A. I think he has to get this. So the thing, if I were him is say, daddy, open the wallet. This isn't, that's one of the projections Warner has is this money is not guaranteed. And who knows if the Saudis would pull out at any moment. Saudis in the other Middle Eastern countries. So if I were him and he could convince daddy to do it, $34 a share cash, he'll get it. Money will, the ARBs only want money. And that'll be a very difficult thing for Netflix to do. So, so that's, that's really his own on, because he's totally inexperienced to run this thing. And they have no, every single mogul I talked to has zero respect for his ability to do this. Nice guy. Nice guy. But they all are like, like, come on. And Ted Sarandos is a baller. I'll tell you that. Oh yeah. You said he was dumb money in 2022. Is there either dumb money out there right now or is David the dumbest? Well, I think, well, look what he's bought. You know, my podcast makes more money than the one he bought for $150 million. So okay. I just don't, I think all the other moguls who were in there went, hmm, who can we give it to Mikey? Michael need anything. I like that. I thought that a hundred feet. I have to disagree with you on that, Karen. It's got to be our strongest agreement so far. Oh yes, we love it. Great. I thought he valued that podcast a very appropriately, 150 million. Yes, that's, I think, yes. Maybe a little low. Yes, low, which is a 300 million. Yeah. I could, I could see a little bit more. Any other predictions for like the tech politics? I don't know. He won't get it if he pays more and if not Netflix, and it'll be a long, what Ted Sarandos has done is frozen the playing field, which is a good thing to do right now. So they also need it too, by the way. They need it not as much as Paramount, but he has to pay up if he wants it, but it'll be a disaster. It'll be a disaster. For an un-tech listener, Sarandos is the Netflix CEO. Ted Sarandos. Yeah. The, any other like of the predictions about that crowd, the tech politics intersection, Elon, Andreessen, any of those kinds of predictions? I think they'll float back away from DC once Trump, if Trump loses the midterms, they won't have any, and they're going to flee and, and they'll all of a sudden start to say, well, not us. It wasn't, you know, they're going to try to do the correction, the appropriate correction. I think a lot of people, I think. You think so. I do. I think they'll be like, Newsome seems interesting. Like if he seems like he's in the front, right? Or, or. Not JD. And a lot of people say that JD is, they all like JD. They do, but I think they'll come to. Why not stick around and for him? I think they'll come to realize no, no amount of makeup is going to make this guy pretty. Like, you know, lipstick on a pig kind of thing. And so I find some of these guys are bad judges of what is put a little bit of talent though, I think he's repugnant to voters. I think he's repugnant. I just think on the basic level. I agree with that, but I don't know. I mean, you know, I mean, like these guys have made a lot of bad politics bets and they got it on Trump. They have. Like Teal, she was credit card on Trump early. Teal was the only one. But all these other guys, yeah. Teal was the only one. They just came along for the ride. Here's the thing. The only plus only thing that would work for Vance possibly is if he gets to be president for a little while before it, right? He gets, if somehow Trump decides to step down the hand, whatever, if he gets to be president, he has a better chance, but he's so manifestly unlikable and kind of an asshole. I think he people, I think regular people pick up and Trump for all his negatives. And he's a terrible heinous person, but he's, for a lot of people, he's entertaining. He was self deprecating and he's charismatic and Jay Vance. What's the opposite of charisma? He has it. Yeah, negative. Whatever it is. Cizarro charisma. He's like, you don't look at him and say, yeah, that's the guy I want to have a beer with. I know it sounds, I know that's not the thing in politics anymore, but you really want to avoid a beer with him. You're like, hmm, he's going to just, he's going to rag on me. He's going to be mean. He's that, you know, it was interesting that Vanity Fair shoot, there was some reporting on what was happening and the whole time he was like, you're going to make him look uglier than me? Is this where you make me look eagle? He's like, shut up, you twit. Like he's that guy. Yeah, he's like a charisma vampire. Oh no. He sucks it from your butt. No, exactly. One of, you know, it's interesting. I'll give a comparison. I was testing a Volkswagen ID buzz van that Volkswagen has a little too expensive for most people, but it's a delightful car. They took the VW van and they electrified it and made it adorable, even more adorable. And as we were driving, everyone waved at us. Like everyone was like, hi, we love you. Like, and I thought, oh my God, I'm driving the anti-cybertruck. Like whoever that is among the Democrats, he's the Cybertruck. Yeah. I like that analogy. He's the fucking cyber. Here's one last idea I have. Do you have kid, right? How old is your kid? Yeah, second grade. Therefore K-pop demon hunters, correct? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Love K-pop demon hunters. Are you kidding? Like it is the, talk about the song of the year. Yeah, golden. So if I was Gavin Newsom or Conley Harris, I'll work better for Gavin. You make golden your theme song because up, up, up, done, done. We can be different, but yet we can be strong and kick ass and be demons. But also we like each other and you can have, you can have stripes or whatever you want. So it's a good message. It's a great, catchy song that everybody, you feel better after listening to it. And this is the motto. It's the golden state. They're both from the golden state. It's a golden state, right? Say, it's time to be golden. No more gold. It's time to be golden, no more gold. If you're interested to see them have the balls for that. They both are a little bit reticent on the, on that stuff. I know, but golden, it's time, we're all golden. Golden is lovely. Gold is crass. Like make fun, make a dig at Trump. Enough of gold. No kids music on my little playlist for my child. I like reject kids music. Really? Who I shave at four start listening to grownup music. But I make an exception for cave-up demon hunters. That's great. Okay. Before I lose your final topic. I don't think you have a choice. I've been unhappy with, we're not going to say who it is. I think it's kind of obvious who won the power lesbian of 2025 award. And it was, they're not that appealing for me. And so I want to move, I'm hoping for a new power lesbian in 2026. Oh, it's got to be Rachel. It's Rachel every year. It's Rachel and it's Rachel every year. But you're not recruiting. I kind of figured you'd be out there in the marketplace to be able to tell us who's like, you know, who's on the come up. Power lesbian. Who would be a lesbian rising through the ranks? I'm trying to think. You know who I really, this is not a lesbian is trans person. Sarah McBride. Sarah McBride. Yeah. I am so impressed with her. I have to say, she's unbelievable. She's unbelievable. She's smart. She's, she decenters her identity, which I think is critical. Right. She doesn't lose it. She decenters it just enough and says, I'm here for the people of Delaware. Let's stop talking about my being trans. And she's not, but she's not turning her back on the issue either. It's just, and the thing she said to me, which Scott has stolen many times was, we have to embrace imperfect allies and all the shit she got from all those assholes in Congress about the mancy maze, that lunatic, she still has a digney. She's the one. She's the power, the power LGBTQ person. That's what I would say. I love that. I'm going to get her on the pod early next year. I love Sarah McBride. And it's not surprising Scott's store material. He's a stick thief. He's got a stick. He's still, he's still sick. Are you kidding? He repeated something I said to him back. He goes, what do you mean this is the idea? I go, well, I was great when I said it to you. He does that all the time. That's okay. It's, it's, it's a lot. It's his love language is, is, is plagiarism. Yes. Kara Swisher, thank you so much for the time. Thank you. I hope you have a great holidays. Love the hat. Are you going to, are you trying to star in heated rivalry? Is that what's going on here? If only I don't have the muscles for heated rivalry. Oh yeah. Is that a good show? It is great. I'm sure Scott is watching it right now. It's, it's, it's Slop Plus. You know what I mean? It's, it's Sly. It's Slop Plus. Which, Slop Plus? Slop Plus. Oh, it's so good. What are you talking about? You know, it's like hunting, between, oh, hunting wives. Okay. Season two. I don't know about that. Oh, stop it. It's so good. It's women. Oh my God. It's, okay. Let me just, I'm going to do you a favor right now. Hunting wives. It is MAGA, Christian, lesbian action and guns. All things I hate. I'm a gay man. I don't like guns. No, you can't not hate this. It's so good. There is, it's so good. Trust me. It's the best. Make, make an acrimony and Britney Snow or star in it. A key part of my commitment to my listeners is radical candor. And I'm just going to let you know I'm going to pass on that. I'm not going to be watching that. Just one episode. That's all I ask of you. And then you're going to write me and say I was wrong. Deal. One episode. Kara Swisher. Thank you so much. Thank you. Everybody else will see you back here soon.